00:27:41 `unidecode ߷ 00:27:42 ​[U+07F7 NKO SYMBOL GBAKURUNEN] 00:28:52 -!- https_GK1wmSU has joined. 00:31:18 -!- https_GK1wmSU has left. 00:37:52 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:42:18 -!- Warrigal_ has joined. 00:55:08 -!- Jafet has joined. 00:58:05 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:59:02 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:04:13 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Periapsis * New user account 01:06:03 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:07:46 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:15:02 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52610&oldid=52602 * Periapsis * (+247) 01:15:49 [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52611&oldid=52437 * Periapsis * (+16) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ 01:18:55 -!- z0d has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:55 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:25:26 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:36:31 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:37:36 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:38:08 Is this language any good? https://winworldpc.com/product/actor 01:39:18 "Actor is an object oriented Smalltalk-like programming language for Windows 3.1. 01:39:18 Interestingly, an earlier version of Actor ran on Windows 2.1!" 01:40:33 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:41:05 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:45:56 [wiki] [[BrainGuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52612 * Periapsis * (+694) Created page with "BrainGuck is an esoteric language created by [[User:Periapsis]]. It was inspired by [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview BrainFuck]. It adds a few extra comm..." 01:51:22 [wiki] [[BrainGuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52613&oldid=52612 * Periapsis * (+0) 01:56:14 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:57:42 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:02:42 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:05:31 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:06:25 -!- Warrigal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:07:27 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:08:49 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:20:40 -!- imode has joined. 02:24:59 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:25:46 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:30:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:31:00 `smlist 455 02:31:01 smlist 455: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 02:31:08 ooh 02:31:40 Cale: you're supposed to ooh over olists 02:32:02 Super Mega Comics℠ 02:32:10 Super Mega℠ 02:32:20 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:32:26 What is olist? 02:32:32 `? olist 02:32:33 olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html 02:33:01 ah, I haven't gotten into that one yet 02:33:21 It's a good time for it! 02:33:53 It's just you have to read past the first hundred or so before it turns into much of anything. 02:34:45 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:43:07 `randquote Cale 02:43:24 1116) I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font. This improves the operation of the system. 02:43:43 `randquote 02:43:44 No output. 02:43:48 @quote Cale 02:43:48 Cale says: One can create powerful abstractions in C++ in much the same way that a woman can produce a child. It's possible, and people do it, but it takes hours of labour and is extremely painful. 02:44:13 Cale: Do you like the new C++ metaclasses proposal? 02:46:17 I dunno, I kinda stopped caring about how good/shitty C++ is. 02:46:48 It's probably better just not to touch it at all. 02:46:57 This new proposal is wonderfully complex. 02:47:03 For fear that you can only make things worse 02:47:04 C++ is going to be so complicated. 02:47:07 It's great. 02:47:09 haha 02:47:28 Anyway there are still not many competitor to C++ 02:47:41 There's a lot of software that I'd probably still use C++ to write today? 02:54:22 -!- https_GK1wmSU has joined. 02:56:51 -!- https_GK1wmSU has left. 03:00:30 Cale: I wish I understood the reals. :-( 03:01:12 shachaf: What would it mean to understand them? 03:01:28 I'm not sure! 03:01:41 I just think they're a much more mysterious and fundamental object than I gave them credit for in the past. 03:02:29 Cale: any opinions on https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 twh 03:03:53 That question makes me think to mention this quirky strategy for proving the reals are uncountable 03:04:25 (See also the comments, which apparently you have to click the link to see.) 03:08:35 Let S be an arbitrary subset of [0,1] and define a two-player game as follows. 03:08:47 The first player picks a number 0 < a_1 < 1 03:08:59 and the second player picks a number a_1 < b_1 < 1 03:09:14 and thereafter, the players pick numbers between the previous two selected numbers, i.e. 03:09:26 a_(n-1) < a_n < b_(n-1) 03:09:26 and 03:09:42 a_n < b_n < b_(n-1) 03:09:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:10:18 Since the sequence of a_n is monotone increasing and bounded, it has a limit L. The first player wins if L is in S. 03:10:52 If S is countable, then the second player has a winning strategy: pick b_n to be s_n whenever that is a valid move, and to play a random move otherwise 03:11:11 If s_n wasn't a valid move, then it's already outside the interval in which the limit must occur 03:11:36 and the limit of the sequence must be strictly less than b_n, so playing s_n as b_n ensures that the limit is not s_n for any n 03:11:48 But if S is [0,1], then the first player always wins 03:12:09 So [0,1] is uncountable 03:12:22 What's s_n? 03:12:44 Ah, S = {s_1,s_2,...} under the assumption it's countable 03:13:00 Sorry, left that out 03:13:58 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:18:59 the first player would have a winning strategy if the _complement_ of S is countable, i think. 03:20:06 in pretty much the same way. 03:21:15 gah what's up with internet... 03:21:22 * oerjan goes to restart router 03:22:59 right 03:24:50 hm that didn't help, still no connection to PPCG 03:25:24 Cale: Which properties of the reals do you need for this? 03:26:50 Totally ordered, Dedekind-complete? 03:26:54 Well, that's not enough. 03:28:31 * oerjan switches DNS to 8.8.8.8 03:29:42 * oerjan puts reminder in a vim window to change it back 03:30:17 high tech primitive solutions 03:32:53 shachaf: that defines the reals though 03:33:00 shachaf: well, that and that they are a field 03:33:24 "that they are a field" is a short phrase that has a lot of complexity. 03:33:54 well, yes 03:34:04 and in particular they are a totally ordered field 03:34:05 Did you see my post above? 03:34:25 I don't have any special insight 03:34:56 "The real line ⟨ℝ,<⟩ is (up to isomorphism) the unique nonempty, separable, complete, dense, endless total order." 03:35:23 Which of those properties are used in Cale's game? 03:35:43 Hmm, I guess a lot of them. 03:37:34 not the endless one, i guess. 03:37:52 Cale's proof isn't even about R, it's about [0,1] 03:38:08 So that one isn't necessary. 03:38:50 What's separability again? 03:39:01 hm which of those properties isn't satisfied by a single point space... 03:39:10 oh. 03:39:17 that's the only one you need endless for. 03:39:25 to show that it has more than one point. 03:41:28 Well, [0,1] isn't endless. How do you characterize a potentially-closed real interval? 03:42:25 i think dropping endless gives all of them, plus the single point. 03:42:56 shachaf: separable = contains countable dense subset 03:43:21 I don't know why it's called separable 03:44:24 Ah, right, like Q in R 03:46:25 yep 03:46:38 trying to figure out why separable is necessary 03:48:16 https://mathoverflow.net/a/43165 gives an example 03:54:44 i'm not sure separable is necessary for the proof. 03:57:31 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52614&oldid=52610 * Phi * (+160) 03:59:51 I don't think it is 04:00:20 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52615&oldid=52614 * PhiNotPi * (+203) 04:24:32 koenigl: https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu 04:25:01 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 04:33:47 ooh, genuine spammers are back on the wiki... 04:34:14 I bet I would be good at spamming the wiki. 04:34:26 I wonder how much I can get for it. 04:34:29 probably. for a while. 04:34:51 (it didn't get through the new filter.) 04:35:22 oerjan: how much will you pay me not to become an evil spammer and ruin the wiki for everyone twh 04:37:10 i'll delay banning you for up to a week hth 04:38:32 does anybody know of any papers covering a dynamic succinct linked list implementation? 04:38:43 the closest I can get is binary trees and squinting really hard. 04:38:52 What's a succinct linked list? 04:39:02 That seems kind of tricky. 04:39:35 `? succinct 04:39:36 succinct? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 04:39:56 shachaf: lists that contain either empty lists or atoms that take up an amount of bits close to the minimum to represent them. 04:40:03 `dowg succinct 04:40:06 but still remain usable. 04:40:10 No output. 04:40:16 imode: But they still have pointers between nodes? 04:40:22 nope. 04:40:51 I came up with a static version a while back that can fit a lot within a single machine word. 04:41:00 but now I'm searching for a dynamic version. 04:41:09 What's the difference between succinct linked lists and succinct sequences? 04:41:24 Do they support sharing nodes or something? 04:41:47 mmm. alright, bear with me now. 04:42:02 say you have a list like [[],[],[]]. 04:42:40 how would you encode that so you conserve on space while retaining the same operations. 04:42:55 for traversal. not modification. 04:43:01 A list of lists? 04:43:15 yep. just as an example. 04:43:23 Is this an arbitrary tree or only depth 2? 04:43:49 any arbitrary list consisting of either nested lists or empty lists. 04:44:17 I would call that a tree. Where a tree is defined as a list of trees. 04:44:25 sure. 04:44:38 Anyway this is the old balanced parentheses thing, right? 04:44:44 correctamundo. 04:44:46 What makes these linked lists? 04:45:10 closest two words I have for something like this. 04:45:47 could just use 'list'. 04:46:11 Why would you call a tree a list? 04:46:12 anyway, yeah, this is the nested parens problem. store opening and closing parens as bits. 04:46:20 This is the least fixed point of lists. 04:46:43 "why would you call a tree of list." 04:46:47 *a list. 04:47:02 because... a list is a list of values, each of which may also be lists. 04:47:15 not sure why you're getting hung up on that. 04:47:54 if you wanted me to specify "right-heavy binary trees" I could. 04:49:22 [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Kutta]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites 04:49:38 anyway, with the binary representation of a tree, it's hard to do arbitrary inserts without lots of operations being flung around at once. so I was wondering if there was a more dynamic method of storing them. 04:54:15 imode: us haskellers get hung up on that because of all the nested "lists" that won't pass type checking as lists in haskell because they're actually trees hth 04:54:41 (i forget, were you from PPCG) 04:54:48 I am not. :P 04:55:04 because there are quite a number of such challenges there. 04:55:17 nah. just a dude doing research. 04:55:36 imode: How much overhead are you willing to accept? 04:55:57 shachaf: for what? a dynamic representation? 04:56:01 You said "succinct" so I guess you want Z + o(Z) 04:56:13 yuh. also, I already have an encoding for static trees. 04:56:26 always saves one bit over the traditional parens representation. 04:56:34 -!- PattuX has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:56:57 just wondering about what a convenient alternative is for trees that support arbitrary insertion/manipulation. 05:00:10 I don't know much about dynamic succinct data structures unfortunately. I'd like to know more. 05:00:45 But at least I understand the question now. 05:00:47 I don't think it has anything to do with linked lists (I think linked lists are lists where each node has a link pointer to the next node). 05:01:03 shachaf: you can replace linked list with "collections of cons cells". :P 05:01:41 but yeah, trees work. 05:01:47 But this has even less to do with binary trees than it does with lists. 05:02:02 not.. really. 05:02:16 considering they're all equal in representation. if you think not, ask a lisper. :P 05:02:42 Here's a exoteric reduct game http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/ 05:03:35 [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PhiNotPi * uploaded "[[File:Qftarch01.png]]" 05:03:51 @wn exoteric 05:03:52 *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 05:03:52 exoteric 05:03:52 adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric 05:03:52 nature" [ant: {esoteric}] 05:04:28 doesthiswork: TG 05:05:40 Ferdinand-Tönnies-Gesellschaft ? 05:06:29 Too Good 05:07:23 axtually I'm juxt bad at typeing 05:07:53 What are these broken keys? 05:08:18 Booleans? 05:08:28 yeah, false booleans 05:09:25 I guess the pink thing is (==) and doesn't allow function arguments. 05:09:41 🎜 Take these broken keys. And learn to type again. 🎜 05:10:46 Does this introduce callCC later? 05:11:07 yeah, once you unlock the hidden levels 05:12:19 Ah, 19 was the first slightly tricky one. 05:13:32 Did you make this? 05:14:00 no I found it on LTU 05:16:11 doesthiswork: You should extend it for linear types. 05:18:42 that would be interesting 05:20:03 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52617&oldid=52609 * Btiffin2017 * (+1769) /* Instructions (including Befunge-93 commands) */ 05:22:14 shachaf: she'd be more the vicereine, i should think. 05:22:54 hm should that be reyne 05:23:03 oerjan: am i missing a pun twh 05:23:16 no, just a gender hth 05:23:45 are you missing a pun twh 05:23:52 probably. 05:24:23 it's not a very complicated one 05:24:39 i assumed you were just going from vicenarian. 05:24:54 which isn't much of a pun. and not even cognate, i suspect. 05:25:05 assume again 05:25:08 or wait, maybe it is. 05:27:13 nope, doesn't seem to be cognate. 05:27:39 ... 05:28:28 i cannot in good conscience swat for a pun that took me that long, sorry. 05:28:51 What! 05:28:56 How about the pan? 05:31:02 i'm afraid it doesn't pan out, either. 05:32:45 `? decadent 05:32:46 a decadent is a ten-pronged rake 05:33:02 `slwd decadent//s,.,A,;s,$,., 05:33:04 decadent//A decadent is a ten-pronged rake. 05:33:08 I knew it. 05:33:43 but did you manage to make a profit from your inside knowledge? 05:34:00 No, I don't play golf. 05:34:14 shocking 05:38:47 doesthiswork: How do you unlock the hidden levels? 05:39:57 you invoke the continuation and restore to level 5 with continuations enabled 05:40:39 Oh, so you were joking? :-( 05:41:20 I'm sorry but I was, I'm going to design some levels and suggest continuations to andru 05:42:04 http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/ 05:44:37 that was a fun game. 05:57:58 <\oren\> how is the bitcoin fork going? 06:09:28 <\oren\> Are graphics cards going to become affordable again 06:12:24 [wiki] [[QFTASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52618 * PhiNotPi * (+6860) created page 06:13:07 <\oren\> find out in 7 hours, 7 minutes and 7 seconds! 06:13:55 <\oren\> https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20170801T1220&p0=1440&msg=Bitcoin+Cash+Hardfork 06:14:20 [wiki] [[QFTASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52619&oldid=52618 * PhiNotPi * (-2) fixed link format 06:29:37 -!- https___GK1wmSU has joined. 06:30:10 -!- https___GK1wmSU has left. 06:33:34 -!- erkin has joined. 07:00:41 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:21:00 Do you know this algorithm for converting a number into decimal? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Decimal_numbers 07:25:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:25:43 why not just use BCD. :P 07:27:28 Mainly for cases where conversion is needed. For many uses, BCD (or base 100 may be better, especially for Famicom which has no decimal mode) can be very helpful, but sometimes you will need conversion (such as if implementing Z-machine, for example). 07:27:57 how so? packed BCD is pretty standard. 07:29:11 Famicom and NES doesn't support the packed BCD arithmetic of 6502; that flag will be ignored (it still exists though, it just doesn't do anything). 07:29:43 oh shit, yeah. forgot about that. 07:30:08 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:30:09 man it has been a while.. 07:30:25 * imode looks at the last accessed date on his old NESASM... 07:31:52 Which is what date? 07:32:48 January 13th, 2011. 07:33:02 OK 07:34:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:38 -!- sdhand has quit (Excess Flood). 07:40:48 -!- sdhand has joined. 07:41:12 -!- sdhand has changed nick to Guest43396. 07:43:07 -!- Guest43396 has quit (Changing host). 07:43:07 -!- Guest43396 has joined. 07:43:07 -!- Guest43396 has changed nick to sdhand. 07:49:30 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:14 -!- HackEgo has joined. 07:54:12 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52620&oldid=52617 * Btiffin2017 * (+0) /* Instructions, correct the stack pictures */ 08:11:18 -!- sleffy has joined. 08:28:03 <\oren\> there will, in less than 5 hours, be two variant coins: Bitcoin Core, and Bitcoin Cash 08:28:32 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:08:00 `? bitcoin 09:08:02 bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking. 09:15:50 why do large companies care about being influential in standard committees? 09:16:07 like google and facebook 09:16:11 why do they even care? 09:19:32 in IBM's case, an ultimately futile struggle to stem the tide of trigraph-haters 09:24:25 hah 09:26:17 in any case, it's rather cheap influence compared to, say, congressional lobbying 09:49:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:58:17 -!- btiffin has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [SeaMonkey 2.46/20170120202656]). 10:11:23 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:20:30 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:24:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:46:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 10:51:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:51:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 10:52:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Client Quit). 11:38:56 -!- boily has joined. 11:56:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:06:04 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:29:57 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TOROIDAL CHICKEN). 13:07:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:51:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:51:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:00:46 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:03:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:10:52 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:11:41 " Here's a exoteric reduct game" => oh, will this become the next toy everyone in #esoteric tries, like that euclides compass and line game last time? 14:12:02 I still haven't figured out how to do the pentagon in 10 steps 14:12:13 I really like that ancient greek geometry game 14:12:30 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:15:09 -!- Cale has joined. 14:21:47 (trying that reduct game) huh what? I don't understand 14:22:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:23:18 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:23:55 I don't understand how this game works 14:24:02 maybe it will become clear later 14:26:49 ok, now I'm even more confused 14:29:14 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:39:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:41:35 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:41:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:48:53 well I still don't understand what this game is about, even after beating lots of levels 14:49:51 I thought it was about arbitrary changes in notation 14:50:56 doesthiswork: maybe 14:53:42 I understand what it's about 14:53:51 It's basically like weird manual lambda calculus 14:54:19 Cale: but where's the lambda calculus part? I've seen lambdas, but no application expression. 14:55:05 You do application by hand by dropping things into the lambdas 14:55:26 yes, but there's no expression that does application. you can't have lambda calculus without that. 14:55:47 or at least, I haven't encountered such an expression up to where I'm at 14:55:58 and I'm playing level 69 now 14:58:18 wait what? 15:01:02 I'm at the end of the game, and I still don't understand it 15:01:49 I just don't get the point 15:03:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:03:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:04:26 wob_jonas: I think the main thing which is confusing there is that you can't just leave something sitting in the input of a lambda without having it automatically reduce 15:06:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:06:29 Maybe ais523 can make sense of it 15:06:44 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:06:54 `? euclid 15:06:56 euclid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:07:59 wob_jonas: context? 15:08:09 or am I going to have to read the logs? :-( 15:08:50 ais523: doesthiswork brought up this game thingy http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/ 15:08:50 Jafet: (re Brainfudge) I'm not sure that counts; at least, it's fairly different from what I had in mind 15:09:00 I played through the 72 levels, but still don't understand what it's about 15:09:06 wob_jonas: can't really follow links like that at work 15:09:11 I can have a look tomorrow, perhaps? 15:09:23 sure 15:09:26 wob_jonas: I don't know if it's about anything more than what is apparent 15:09:57 well, I guess it does say "prototype" at the bottom 15:10:01 so maybe he'll change it later 15:10:13 on the subject of programming games, I used to like Rubicon (which is based on an esolang, http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE) 15:10:18 but I haven't played it in ages 15:10:34 being written as a Java applet isn't great for modern-day computers 15:10:36 ais523: I mentioned that euclid game that we played on this channel some years ago 15:10:54 you know, the one about how to make a regular pentagon in ten of the game's steps, which I couldn't solve 15:11:28 oh, is it a geometry game? 15:11:40 hmm, is geometry somehow Turing-complete? 15:11:47 no, it's not a geometry game 15:12:02 it just reminds me because it's a meme game on web someone thrown into #esoteric 15:12:18 and the same sort of abstract geeky game 15:12:39 I get really annoyed by the classification "meme game" 15:12:55 people act like a game that becomes suddenly popular is necessarily bad as a result 15:13:00 no 15:13:02 kind-of like hipsterism except it's mainstream 15:13:09 I mean it was popular on #esoteric 15:13:13 and I'm not saying it's bad 15:13:24 well, I guess I am 15:13:24 right 15:13:27 they are bad 15:13:36 people normally use the phrase "meme game" to dismiss a game that's had a recent surge in popularity, though 15:13:50 but it's not bad because it's popular, but more like it's popular despite that it's bad, which is why I call it a meme game 15:14:04 yes, I am dismissing it, but not because it's popular 15:14:33 right 15:14:38 you're dismissing it, and it also happens to be popular? 15:15:05 yes 15:15:26 and I'm dismissing it more than the geometry game, because I can't make sense of what it's about 15:16:14 oh, " oh, is it a geometry game" was referring to the euclid thing, not the earlier topic of conversation 15:16:19 I need to be more precise in my pronouns 15:16:36 the earlier game I can't really discuss because I have basically zero information about it and can't take a look at it directly until tomorrow 15:17:50 sure 15:18:49 well, not quite zero information, I know that a few #esotericers don't understand it, an URL, and the number of levels it has 15:19:32 I understand it 15:19:47 I don't know what it is that wob_jonas is saying he doesn't understand about it. It's fairly straightforward. 15:34:40 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 15:44:24 by the way, ICFP contest http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/icfpcontest2017/ starts in less tha n3 days 15:44:32 I think that's on topic for #esoteric 15:46:40 definitely 15:46:43 it should be in topic, not just on topic 15:46:55 to reduce the number of people who miss it 15:47:03 good idea 15:47:55 and still no news about IOCCC 15:49:28 bad timing: http://www.cade-26.info/ 15:50:14 but I guess it just happens that both the ICFP contest and CADE are one month before ICFP. 15:50:38 int-e: they scheduled one of the previous ICFP contests at the same time as a Harry Potter book release, making it a bad time for many people, even though the date for the latter was known ages ago. 15:51:04 I might or might not participate 15:51:15 participating will depend on a) me remembering to participate, b) me liking the task 15:51:32 when I've participated in the past it's been solo, depending on what the task is it might make sense to get a #esoteric team together 15:52:27 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-01. 15:52:43 at 12 pm UTC, annoyingly 15:52:48 ais523: yes, these days they're increasingly making the task such that it's harder and harder to participate 15:52:50 that means I'll miss the first few hours due to work 15:52:58 um 15:53:03 harder and harder to participate alone 15:53:14 wait, 08-01? 15:53:22 uh wait 15:53:22 the UMIX challenge was very parallelisable 15:53:27 int-e: wob_jonas got the wrong date 15:53:27 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-07-01. 15:54:00 no wait 15:54:03 um 15:54:05 2017-08-04, I'd guess? 15:54:11 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-04. 15:54:18 that, yes 15:55:01 It looks like I'll miss it entirely 15:55:04 oh well 15:55:47 why does it have to be a VM... and does the VM exploit vulnerabilities in Virtualbox or VMware or the lesser known ones (is Bochs still a thing? Qemu...) 15:56:29 and why does the VM have to be so large 15:56:40 int-e: it doesn't have to be a VM. you can just compile your programs for a similar linux machine. they just make it a VM in case you're worried your program won't work in their setup. 15:56:47 you don't actually need to use the VM. 15:56:55 Debian used to have a version which ran off 1.44 MB of disk space 15:57:06 ais523: what? no way 15:57:10 they dropped that eventually to fit more programs in, but 5 GB is too much of a scale 15:57:19 wob_jonas: it was very cut down, I think 15:57:21 I mean, 3 MB, sure, but 1.44 MB? 15:57:27 I might be misremembering 15:57:31 but that's only a factor of 2 15:57:38 yes, a factor of 2 15:58:02 but Debian is intentionally designed to be able to do a minimal install if you want 15:58:05 first disk is only half full and has the boot loader and kernel (initrd wasn't a thing back then), second floppy has root file system image 15:58:24 I mean, I wasn't using Debian back then, but that's how small linux systems worked 15:58:27 most programs are split between core functionality and larger data files, so you can install just the core functionality if you like 15:58:53 well, I think the Debian install was just kernel + shell + dpkg + apt 15:58:59 i.e. just enough to be able to install more programs 15:59:00 they probably realized that computers dont have floppy drives any more. 15:59:09 I own a USB floppy disk drive 15:59:17 and have even used it on occasion, although not for a long time 15:59:20 mind you, I've heard legends about Linux before Linux 2.0 where you could run a system on 1 MB of RAM, which frankly seems impossible to me. you need at least 2MB for Linux, 4MB if you actually want to run nontrivial programs. And that's for old versions. These days you need much more. 15:59:38 i havent used one since like 2007 15:59:47 ais523: you need a libc too. libc was big even back then. 15:59:54 wob_jonas: the 8086 can't address more than 1 MiB of RAM 16:00:42 ais523: sure, but Linux was never intended to run without 386 32-bit protected mode, and it still almost doesn't run without it. I hear there are non-vanilla versions for cpus without memory protection, but not for x86. 16:00:52 Linux was originally intended as an OS for 386, 16:00:56 but later they made it portable 16:01:09 (386 compatibles obviously) 16:01:27 its instruction set can address almost 2 MiB if you use carrying rather than wrapping addition for segmentation calculations 16:01:47 what? no way 16:01:52 how would that work? 16:02:13 so a far pointer on x86 real mode is 32 bit long 16:02:22 and the address is calculated as (high 16 bits × 16) + low 16 bits 16:02:47 which cpu generation are you talking about here? 16:02:59 wob_jonas: 8086-compatibles 16:03:12 yes, but which generation? 8086 or 286 or 386? 16:03:47 all of them use this syntax when running in real mode (which is meant to be 8086 compatible) 16:03:57 however, the actual 8086 will do a wrapping calculation 16:04:11 yeah, and so will the 8086 I think 16:04:13 um 16:04:15 whereas the 80286, which has more address lines available, deos a carrying calculation 16:04:16 the 80286 16:04:19 ah 16:04:21 right 16:04:24 now I'm confused 16:04:30 how much address lines does the 286 have? 16:04:33 so motherboards at the time had a configurable bit 20 of their address line 16:04:56 the 80286 can address 16 MiB in protected mode, so I guess 24 address lines? 16:05:15 I see 16:06:01 I never really actually used a 286, I only read about them in books. The first computer we had at home was a 386-based PC with I think 8 MB of RAM, although I've seen older PCs elsewhere 16:06:18 It was quite a good machine at that time, the 386 was pretty new 16:07:23 the 286 never really caught on because its protected mode was really buggy / lacking in features 16:07:36 I see 16:08:04 it uses 16 bit addresses + fairly slow bank switching, which means that it can't easily access most of the memory that's available 16:08:20 yeah 16:08:39 also you can't switch back to real mode without resetting the cpu 16:08:45 right 16:08:50 they fixed all of that and more in the 386 16:08:57 although it took surprisingly long for people to find the triple-fault-based method to do that 16:09:00 which is fairly clean and net 16:09:02 *neat 16:09:08 plus made the cpu way more efficient 16:09:11 (and, incidentally, is still used by Linux as a last resort implementation of rebooting) 16:09:25 (if it can't reboot via ACPI like it'd like to) 16:09:29 a triple-fault based method? nice 16:09:45 I thought they just used a small circuit on the motherboard 16:09:50 in the keyboard controller or something 16:10:47 the 386 is a great cpu. it actually has a data cache. that was a big innovation. 16:10:55 obviously they didn't NEED a cache before that 16:10:56 but still 16:11:01 wob_jonas: that was the original method discovered (i.e. using the keyboard controller to trigger the hardware reboot input) 16:11:05 that allowed them to run the cpu so quickly 16:11:15 triple fault is much simpler, though, I wonder why they didn't think of it before screwing around with hardware 16:11:26 that was *discovered*? I assumed it was built into the motherboard deliberately 16:11:43 well, I mean 16:11:51 IBM were stuck trying to work around Intel's bugs 16:12:03 so they programmed their keyboard controller to be able to do reboots 16:12:13 which is one solution to the issue of "how can the processor reboot itself to get back into real mode" 16:12:23 right, but you didn't really have to discover that. it's a well-known feature that the cpu can be reset in like four ways and one of them is a signal on a leg. 16:12:27 so they discovered the principle behind the solution, but still had to actually implement it using a custom keyboard controller 16:12:29 <\oren\> ReeCoin up 7300% 16:12:32 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/WorldCoinIndex/status/892399569077776385 16:12:37 <\oren\> REEEEEEEEE 16:12:45 \oren\: altcoins are incredibly volatile 16:12:53 right, but they need a completely new motherboard for 286 anyway 16:13:01 and most of them are almost worthless, thus a small absolute change can lead to a large relative change 16:13:20 <\oren\> ais523: right now everyone if panicky about the whole bit coin core bit coin cash split 16:14:05 why not just run both chains and see which one ends up having more value? 16:14:20 each bitcoin gets split into two, one on each system; their total value should add up to the original value of the coin 16:14:37 <\oren\> some people are doing that, but others are trying to arbitrage 16:15:02 ais523: sure, they're run both. but it's a market, so they won't "just" run both and see, they want to predict the value to win huge 16:15:04 arbitrage helps to cause convergence to a stable value 16:15:18 wob_jonas: oh, I didn't realise there was an actual hard fork that had already happened 16:15:24 I thought it was still being discussed 16:15:27 I think it hadn't happened yet 16:15:32 but will very soon 16:15:33 but I'm not sure 16:15:54 as in, so soon people who are serious about that sort of thing have had to start preparation long ago 16:32:03 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 16:32:11 for comparison, the last time the ICFP used a VM image, it was 639.1 MB 16:32:20 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:32:26 this one's 5.3 GB 16:32:38 Oo 16:32:46 yeah, that's big. but like I said, you don't actually need it. 16:33:39 if they ask you to submit an executable, and they usually do, you probably need it for the final compile 16:33:43 but you certainly don't need to work on it 16:37:53 I don't think you really need it. You just need any modern x86_64 linux system to compile on, and make sure you either include the required dynamical libraries or compile them statically into the program. 16:38:10 although I'm not sure how libc works these days 16:39:22 I mean, I understand why in normal production work you don't want to statically link libc to your programs, but in a competition thing like this it might be useful. 16:42:26 depending on how much of libc you need, normally you could statically link it 16:42:39 however, this particular purpose for the VM, compiling programs, has a big reason to want all of libc 16:42:45 because compiled programs will likely want to link against it 16:42:48 and the only reason you even might need to statically link it is if you're using a later version of glibc than what's on their debian 16:43:52 and that isn't too likely, since they're using debian 9, which is recent 16:44:14 so you'll get screwed up only if you use some gentoo or something with later libc 16:44:35 and even then you could install a smaller installation of debian 9 (or 8) on x86_64 and compile on that 16:47:44 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:48:48 hmm, the VM is failing to boot under qemu 16:48:57 GRUB works, and Linux starts to load 16:49:07 ais523: do you have enough RAM? 16:49:15 but after the "setting up initial RAMdisk" stage, the view returns to the original view as of boot, then it hangs 16:49:17 where does it fail? 16:49:28 ah 16:49:42 I'd guess it's a problem with the boot lodaer setup with your emulator then 16:49:57 or something 16:49:58 well, GRUB working is evidence that it at least doesn't fail in the early stages 16:50:12 yeah, but grub has to load the initrd 16:50:25 right, but that isn't a hard step or one I'd expect to fail 16:50:34 yeah 16:50:37 dunno 16:50:48 debug it and if it's their fault complain to them 16:51:49 I don't think I'll even try to install the VM if I want to participate 16:51:58 or download 16:53:13 hmm, I think the issue is to do with memory 16:53:30 my qemu can't give it more than half a gigabyte, but the implication in the notes is that it needs 4 gigabytes of memory 16:53:47 qemu actually segfaults trying to allocate 4G of memory 16:53:59 I wonder if it's overflowing it to 0 bytes? 16:54:16 no, the implication in the notes is that they will give you 4G of memory for the contest, but it's a modern debian system which is terrible on machines with low amount of RAM so it might actually need 2G or something 16:54:35 is it a recent enough version of qemu? 16:54:46 whatever the most recent version in the Ubuntu stable repos is 16:55:05 and your host is x86_64, right? 16:55:20 try giving it just one virtual cpu? 16:55:31 not that it should matter much 16:56:05 but even with just 512M it should get past the loading initrd stage 16:59:24 changing the number of CPUs doesn't help 17:00:51 hmm, I suspect GRUB is running but failing to hand over to Linux 17:00:58 in this configuration, it's GRUB that loads the initrd 17:01:02 let me add some debug statements to the GRUB config 17:02:05 sure, grub or the boot loader is always what loads the initrd. that's why it's called *init*rd. it would be just a ramdisk otherwise. 17:02:42 [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52621&oldid=52544 * Qwertyu63 * (+86) 17:02:50 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 17:03:32 [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52622&oldid=52519 * Qwertyu63 * (+8) 17:03:49 hmm, it seems to be working now, even though I didn't change anything other than dropping caches 17:03:57 at least, I'm not aware of having changed anything 17:04:21 what caches? 17:04:22 I'm also not specifying the amount of memory to use; 0.6GB was not enough 17:04:28 wob_jonas: Linux virtual memory caches on the host 17:04:47 wtf 17:05:12 some web searches implied that QEMU incorrectly counts them as used memory when trying to work out how much memory is available 17:05:16 is it possible that you have ran out of memory on the host? 17:05:28 ah! 17:05:35 so it automatically set the memory size 17:05:45 you should try to set it explicitly 17:06:03 right, but all the values were either too small, or else caused qemu to fail to allocate memory 17:06:06 [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52623&oldid=52621 * Qwertyu63 * (+162) 17:06:20 the remaining issue seems to be that, after logging in, all the filesystems are read-only 17:06:29 but that's likely fixable with a ramdrive 17:06:40 and if you're on a machine that doesn't have much resources, such as mine where I ran out of memory for ayacc, then you might be screwed anyway, because you shouldn't expect that a 5 GB disk sized debian system will be kind on memory use. 17:07:03 Isn't that because the underlying virtual disk drives are read-only? 17:07:49 yes, almost certainly 17:10:26 OK, this works 17:10:28 at least for C 17:11:16 as in, you compiled a hello world? 17:11:18 yes 17:11:32 yeah, I did at one point break my linux system such that that simple test failed 17:11:45 that was shortly before I reinstalled, and one of the last straws 17:11:55 the other was the man program no longer working 17:12:13 it was all my fault by the way 17:12:26 I don't know the specifics, but I fiddled a lot with the system 17:12:33 I learned a lot though 17:13:29 are you the person who reimplemented core programs like cat and managed to break them in the process? or was that someone else? 17:13:40 that was someone else 17:15:55 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52624&oldid=52587 * Qwertyu63 * (+63) 17:16:01 [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52625&oldid=52622 * Qwertyu63 * (+0) 17:17:09 -!- erkin has joined. 17:17:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:21:11 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheZipCreator * New user account 17:22:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:25:50 -!- staffehn has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:28:01 oh wow 17:28:12 I got nostalgic and started thinking about those old computers 17:28:51 basically the story is that the third computer we had at home was a Pentium that was my computer, running at the same time as the main computer (my father's computer), another Pentium 17:29:40 and that I still use that same PC, even though I've replaced the hardware and the operating system many times, but I never replaced both the operating system and a major hardware component at the same time, so I always had to keep the hostname 17:29:42 -!- staffehn has joined. 17:30:21 and I have backups sometimes local copies of lots of files from all the earlier operating systems 17:30:47 and I used to say that the operating system and each individual part of the hardware got replaced at least three times since 17:30:53 but I just realized that's not true 17:31:21 I think the optical disk drive only got replaced twice, 17:31:35 but when that computer was first set up, it didn't yet have an optical disk drive 17:31:53 so getting that first CD drive probably counts as an extra occasion 17:31:59 ok, that means the balance is restored 17:32:29 heck, I think even the desk has been replaced three times 17:33:01 the monitor, I think, got replaced exactly three times: once to a newer crt, once to a small tft, and once to this big tft 17:33:44 I'm really fuzzy with the history and I'm not sure how many times the motherboard and many other components were replaced, but I know it was at least three times each 17:34:07 hmm... the floppy drive might also be a bottleneck in fact 17:34:30 both the 1.44 and the 1.2 floppy drive. I think I only had one 1.2 floppy drive and one or two 1.44 floppy drive 17:34:32 damn it 17:35:06 but I don't have a floppy drive in this machine anymore, so it's hard to notice 17:36:25 -!- staffehn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:37:13 -!- staffehn has joined. 17:37:25 do I now have to buy two cheap floppy drives and throw one out after installing to the machine? probably no 17:47:14 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 18:02:18 I invented a kind of character coding for use with computer applications involving astronomy and/or astrology. 18:03:51 There are up to 1065353472 codepoints, and the first 128 codepoints are compatible with ASCII. 18:04:52 Do you like this? 18:05:56 wob_jonas: Okay, one thing I don't understand is why this thing makes the notation for lambdas and conditionals worse halfway through 18:10:13 Yeah, the notation is getting more and more disgusting :) 18:25:43 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:28:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:34:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:49:26 -!- idris-bot has joined. 18:52:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 18:52:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:59:20 -!- imode has joined. 19:08:26 -!- augur has joined. 19:08:53 [wiki] [[~-~!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52626&oldid=47106 * Xav737 * (+331) Add a summary area for the esolang 19:11:59 zzo38: This sounds almost like giga-Unicode. :P 19:14:26 Cale: wait till the last few levels. I already didn't understand how come lists can always be extracted freely, even when they are the output of a computation, 19:15:07 but in the final few levels suddenly you'll be able to remove the condition from the conditionals, even if that conditional is the output of a computation (like a lambda) 19:15:24 So I really don't understand how building stuff works in this game. 19:15:25 wob_jonas: Yeah, I finished it, and the notation was really dumb at the end, I guess they want it to look like ruby or something? 19:15:39 Also, at some point it changes the notation to the atoms to something horrible. 19:15:46 Cale: h8r 19:15:53 The notation is pretty silly but it doesn't matter. 19:16:08 Cale: maybe they want to make it look like *something*, but not ruby 19:16:17 what game? that lambda game? 19:16:20 But it's not really the notations that bother me. 19:16:21 shachaf: I just don't know why they would start with better notation, and then make it worse gradually 19:16:25 imode: yes 19:16:51 wob_jonas: Would it be better if you could place an argument on a lambda and only click it to beta reduce? 19:17:27 I mean, the rules about how you can manipulate the components are pretty arbitrary 19:17:38 Like the thing about being able to unpack lists 19:17:45 That seems okay to me 19:17:55 It's just an arbitrary power that you're granted 19:18:23 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 19:18:27 /context 19:18:39 Cale: I don't think so. Even now in some tasks you need too many clicks to reduce expressions that should just auto-reduce. 19:19:33 Ah, found it. 19:19:35 wob_jonas: I thought it was kind of interesting to have the power to avoid reduction and decompose things 19:19:57 Cale: really my main complaint is that we never see an application expression 19:20:10 Cale: I don't quite understand those null things. 19:20:18 shachaf: Just bad notation. 19:20:28 Cale: but you don't seem to NEED reduction. And I think I understand the null thing 19:20:51 They want it to look like a ternary operator for some reason, but it's not actually a ternary operator 19:21:06 So they introduce null there (which actually always occurs on the false branch of the thing) 19:21:11 This might be inspired by Dragonbox. At least it has some similarities. 19:21:30 basically a lambda can have multiple return values, which makes sense even if few languages have it, and then it freely allows you to compose any output to any input without building blocks 19:21:33 Cale: I was hoping they'd introduce callCC 19:21:47 shachaf: we'd need a fucking function composition first 19:21:50 I mean, this style of game could be much better with different primitives 19:21:54 the part I really don't understand is the map thing 19:22:03 Cale: sure. like the crocodile game, but more powerful. 19:22:04 Anyway I wanted to make a game like this but in the version I had in mind you build more complicated expressions without reducing them all the time. 19:22:09 you know the crocodile game, right? 19:22:12 yeah 19:22:14 Alligator eggs? 19:22:32 Yeah, Alligator eggs 19:22:38 Professor Twist could not but smile. / "You mean," he said, "a crocodile." 19:22:38 shachaf: that yes. I'm in Europe, so I can only go with crocodiles 19:23:01 Why? 19:23:47 Europe doesn't really have aligators. It has crocodiles, which are nicer, and even those are really far from Hungary, I only see them in zoos. 19:24:31 You're in Eurasia, which has Chinese alligators. 19:24:44 But you can talk about dragon games even though dragons are extinct in Europe. 19:24:59 yeah, but Africa has crocodiles, and it's much closer 19:25:32 Africa also has elephants. Why not talk about elephant eggs? 19:25:34 are they extinct or are they just hiding? even so, I don't use Chinese dragons for dragon games 19:26:13 shachaf: crocodiles have big gaping mouths, you can draw them easily as swallowing eggs or other crocodile families, and even draw them to look similar to a lowercase lambda 19:26:28 it would be much stranger for an elephant to eat other elephant families 19:26:42 http://www.qu-i-x.com/crocodile.html 19:26:54 space games are quite popular these days 19:27:02 you could set it in space, with spacesuits 19:28:02 Jafet: Why not set it in a factory with nuclear waste containers? 19:30:18 Cale: anyway, the building rules indeed start to make no sense when map are introduced. you can map an expression that has holes, and get expressions with multiple holes. how does that even work? 19:30:28 ok, maybe that already didn't make sense with the lambdas 19:30:30 dunno 19:31:12 The holes vs. lambdas thing didn't quite make sense to me in the first place. 19:31:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:31:35 `5 w 19:31:40 1/1:galaxy//A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \ canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ turing complete//You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount. \ cod//Cod is a fish's favourite fish person shooter. \ watch//Too late! 19:31:41 [wiki] [[Talk:~-~!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52627&oldid=39430 * Xav737 * (+708) /* Dropping the requirement of bignums */ new section 19:31:50 You might be overthinking it? 19:32:10 It's not like, keeping track of scope or anything 19:32:33 [wiki] [[Talk:~-~!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52628&oldid=52627 * Xav737 * (+78) /* Dropping the requirement of bignums */ 19:32:52 `cwlprits canada 19:32:53 level 35 is also strange 19:33:00 shachäf shachäf boil̈y boil̈y boil̈y 19:33:07 you get free variables you can drag there 19:33:20 and insert to a lambda, and suddenly they're bound to it 19:33:37 Yes, I guess that's the distinction between holes and lambdas. 19:34:06 but that was the only level where you can do that, the theme doesn't get explored, and we never find out what the rules are or how alpha-reduction works 19:34:46 ah yes, you also get free variables in level 7 19:35:08 I also prefer the original syntax for "lists" which makes them look more like sets 19:35:23 [wiki] [[~-~!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52629&oldid=52626 * Xav737 * (+30) 19:35:28 but I think you never get enough building blocks to witness alpha reduction, do you? 19:35:45 There's nothing really to suggest that sets/lists have any order to them 19:36:06 There's only ever x 19:36:15 They're multisets. 19:36:22 But in at least one level the order is required. 19:36:33 ...But you can always take them apart and put them back together so it doesn't mean much. 19:36:36 yeah, multisets / bags 19:36:40 Cale: yes, that was strange, but I think there's only one or two tasks where that actually matters, the ones that use both lists and equal, and at that point you get the bracket notation 19:37:02 wait, which level required something about order? 19:37:21 Cale: let me find that 19:37:35 Looks like 54 19:37:49 48 19:37:58 oh 19:38:05 I see 19:38:11 and 49 19:38:19 48 and 49 surely don't 19:38:20 48 requires order? 19:38:23 54 does 19:38:25 no wait, 49 doesn't require it 19:38:40 I don't see how to make order matter in 48 or 49 19:38:43 shachaf: I think 48 has solutions and non-solutions that differ only by order in lists 19:38:46 49 doesn't 19:39:06 I don't see how. 19:39:13 hmm wait 19:39:14 ([star,star] ==) is pre-bound 19:39:36 sorry, you're right 19:39:39 48 doesn't require order 19:42:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:43:01 hmm... I think order might matter for level 51, let me try that 19:43:49 wait wtf 19:45:20 -!- PattuX has joined. 19:45:24 #51 seems to claim that ([star, (false?$hole:null)] == [(false?$hole:null),star]) evaluates to true 19:45:26 how does that work? 19:50:17 you did that differently... I compared two stars and erased a bag containing four stars. 19:50:20 65 is the other level where order matters 19:50:29 int-e: sure, that's the easy solution 19:50:55 but the thing is that nulls disappear completely 19:50:57 so because of 54, the goal definitely cares about order 19:51:16 but let me test if the == operator cares about the order in 65 19:51:42 no wait, 54 doesn't let me test that 19:52:48 in any case, I agree that it introduces ugly notation for no good reason. 19:53:07 ok, then I think 51 is the only level where you can detect whether == cares about list order 19:53:47 I still don't understand the part where you can sometimes evaluate lambdas and some other expressions even if the arguments have holes 19:53:57 that's so strange, and I don't understand what the meaning is supposed to be 19:54:03 I mean, how do you do that in programming? 19:54:53 and it's a bit strange that 51 lets you evaluate (false?$hole:null) 19:56:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:56:11 The way a conditional can return variable number of return values is strange, but technically you can imagine like you always get a list of the variable arity they output (like in scheme) and as a concession to easy playing the game, you can freely unpack and repack lists, sort of 19:56:23 it doesn't quite make sense, but it's not the most disturbing thing at first about the game 19:56:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:57:31 in the end, the whole game is so strange I can't make much sense of it, but I'll see what ais says because he knows more about strange logic systems 19:57:59 (logic systems in the sense like modal logic and linear logic and use-once variables etc) 20:01:53 well, #51 also says that [true,star] == [star,true] 20:02:06 as you've probably found out 20:02:23 int-e: oh! I haven't checked that. good idea. 20:03:55 also the items in the bag aren't arranged nicely after the 6th one, sad :) 20:04:19 int-e: well after a while it's hard to display stuff on the screen 20:04:35 bags also don't get nicely arranged when the contained elements are large in screen space 20:04:41 yeah, but up to 9 is still easy 20:18:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:24:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:29:19 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:31:04 -!- moony has joined. 20:31:10 _unidecode ᠍ 20:31:14 err 20:31:20 `unidecode ᠍ 20:31:20 ​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+180D MONGOLIAN FREE VARIATION SELECTOR THREE] 20:39:36 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 20:39:42 <\oren\> WHYYYYYYY 20:48:48 what why? 20:49:11 I must be missing the context 20:52:09 -!- sleffy has joined. 21:05:11 -!- sleffy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:20:44 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52630&oldid=52620 * Btiffin2017 * (+546) /* Examples, add Rock Scissors Paper */ 21:23:00 -!- Naya has joined. 21:23:20 -!- Naya has quit (Quit: -a- IRC for Android 2.1.35). 21:25:21 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52631&oldid=52630 * Btiffin2017 * (+7) /* Instructions */ 21:30:44 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52632&oldid=52631 * Btiffin2017 * (+0) /* Instructions */ 21:43:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:50:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:59:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:02:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:02:42 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:09:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:16:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:25:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:38:51 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:54:25 -!- btiffin has joined. 22:57:05 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:57:25 To the Funge-98 experts in the crowd? I've tried FBBI rcfunge and cfunge, the Input Character function is buffered. For a proper Play again? prompt is it wise to spin on ~ eating newlines? Or are there better options for getting a 'yn' answer that is to be repeated after the next round? 22:57:35 -!- Jafet has joined. 22:58:26 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:00:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:08:18 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:24:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:29:25 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52633&oldid=52632 * Btiffin2017 * (+293) /* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3; updated to ask play again? */ 23:44:28 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:44:35 -!- rdococ has joined. 23:44:36 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 23:44:36 -!- rdococ has joined. 23:46:03 [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52634&oldid=52633 * Btiffin2017 * (-32) /* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3 */ 23:57:48 -!- oerjan has joined.