←2017-09-03 2017-09-04 2017-09-05→ ↑2017 ↑all
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02:40:19 <\oren\> I FINALLY DID IT
02:40:23 <\oren\> 200 K POPULATION
02:40:27 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127628055
02:40:37 <\oren\> WUHU!
02:45:08 <oerjan> \oren\: is this about the time you send in the giant monsters?
02:45:43 <imode> only after copying his save file. :P
02:46:03 <oerjan> lynn: do you have the CJam cheat sheet somewhere? someone marked the link as dead on the wiki page
02:46:19 <lynn> oh yeah http://foldr.moe/cjam.pdf
02:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53020&oldid=53002 * Oerjan * (-41) /* Instructions */ Fix link
02:48:10 <oerjan> thanks
02:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53021&oldid=53020 * Oerjan * (+6) /* Instructions */ pdf warning
03:00:02 <oerjan> "The Official Crainfuck Distribution (dead link) (can someone please mirror this?)" apparently we couldn't.
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03:21:29 <oerjan> `? fizzbuzz
03:21:30 <HackEgo> fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:21:52 <shachaf> fizziebuzzie
03:21:54 <oerjan> `learn Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:21:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'fizzbuzz': Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
03:23:10 <shachaf> And others by fizzwords.
03:23:52 <oerjan> you are technically correct.
03:24:20 <oerjan> but that wouldn't really improve the wisdom.
03:24:22 <ais523> oerjan: OK, that one's actually pretty funny
03:24:28 <oerjan> yay!
03:24:59 <ais523> also, I define "fizzword" as "a word used like a buzzword, but which was never meaningful"
03:24:59 <shachaf> ais523: I think tastes on wisdom entries vary.
03:25:08 <ais523> shachaf: indeed
03:25:15 <shachaf> So are all fizzwords buzzwords?
03:26:36 <ais523> I think buzzwords are generally originally meaningful, although the original meaning may have been dubiously useful at best and they may often be used in a way unrelated to their meaning
03:30:58 <shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple.
03:31:15 <shachaf> The future has plenty of downsides but this is nice.
03:38:03 <oerjan> . o O ( the future brexit all, putin in downsides that trump everything )
03:38:22 <zzo38> Earlier today I tried connecting the printer to the USB on the front of the computer instead of the USB on the back, and this time it did not result a kernel panic
03:40:59 <ais523> did it result in a kernel panic the previous time?
03:45:14 <shachaf> hi ais523
03:45:21 <shachaf> Did you ever write up the rules to your jam?
03:45:34 <ais523> I have a jam?
03:45:40 <shachaf> I mean game.
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03:46:01 <ais523> shachaf: no, although I've been thinking about them
03:46:07 <ais523> trying to pin down certain details
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03:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Isny * New user account
03:51:54 <shachaf> What sorts of details?
03:52:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53022&oldid=52996 * Isny * (+158) /* Introductions */
03:55:43 <\oren\> best song of the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4H5IArtaw
03:56:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53023&oldid=53010 * Isny * (+10)
03:57:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53024 * Isny * (+56) Created page with "Rev is a small, stack based language based on [[Mouse]]."
03:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53025&oldid=53024 * Isny * (+148)
04:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53026&oldid=53025 * Isny * (+585)
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04:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53027&oldid=53026 * Isny * (+29)
04:06:55 <zzo38> ais523: I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic.
04:07:19 <ais523> shachaf: mostly what each of the resources is used for
04:07:51 <zzo38> What is that game?
04:08:16 <\oren\> zzo38: jigoku kisetsukan
04:08:17 <shachaf> What resources are there?
04:08:56 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/368950/
04:09:06 <shachaf> i,i with no other recourses but my own resources
04:09:09 <zzo38> No I mean ais523
04:09:55 <ais523> shachaf: even that wasn't pinned down until fairly recently, and I'm still not 100% on what one of them does in a specific circumstance
04:10:14 <ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible
04:10:23 <ais523> (the problems can either be balance problems or UI problems)
04:11:06 <imode> solaris is dead, long live solaris.
04:12:11 <shachaf> I was trying to think of a slightly different resource system for Magic: The Gathering at one point.
04:12:36 <zzo38> shachaf: What different resource system?
04:12:41 <ais523> this one's asymmetrical
04:13:04 <shachaf> One property of it was that instead of having red mana, you would have things requiring mana + red as two separate resources.
04:13:29 <shachaf> Which I guess is already the way some games work.
04:13:57 <zzo38> ais523: OK. I had some ideas too, such as writing the rules as a literate computer programming, to make the rules more clear, and if anything remains unclear, you can figure it out by putting it into the computer to figure out.
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04:16:36 <shachaf> MtG resources are pretty complicated.
04:16:48 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering has some things unclear and I thought to do by literate computer programming and mathematics to make clearer, although also there is still some klugy rules which are not quite so mathematically elegant; fortunately most of those problems have been fixed. They also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary; while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant,
04:16:52 <shachaf> E.g. karma that you can only use for casting creature spells, or that has an effect on a creature if you use that karma to cast it.
04:18:09 * oerjan thinks zzo38's client needs a wrap long lines feature
04:18:12 <zzo38> Well, it is "mana" and not "karma" in Magic: the Gathering, although yes those things do exist (but they aren't so common)
04:19:29 <zzo38> oerjan: I should perhaps to put in the mode to ring the bell if you try to type too much on one line, but I don't even know what limit
04:19:48 <shachaf> Sometimes there are other restrictions.
04:20:15 <shachaf> Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells
04:20:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there are many other kinds too.
04:21:26 <shachaf> Oh man, Piracy
04:21:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think it's 510 bytes for the whole IRC line
04:21:48 <ais523> and that includes information that's specific to the recipient, IIRC
04:22:03 <ais523> so there's no way to know exactly what limit is safe without knowing all the possible metadata the recipient could see
04:22:10 <oerjan> oh
04:22:50 <shachaf> Play it safe and don't write any messages longer than four bytes.
04:23:10 <zzo38> ais523: That is what I thought, which make it difficult to know what to set it to. I would make it a user configurable setting of course, but still I should have to know what to set it to!
04:23:44 <zzo38> shachaf: Can't; the word PRIVMSG itself is seven bytes.
04:24:39 <shachaf> That's not part of the message.
04:25:06 <zzo38> O,OK
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04:25:52 <oerjan> wait what. apparently my splitlong.pl script no longer exists on this server.
04:26:06 <alercah> splitlong works badly with freenode anyway
04:26:08 <alercah> been meaning to take it off
04:26:15 <oerjan> the symbolic link goes nowhere
04:26:42 <shachaf> I was going for <oerjan> OKAY
04:26:53 <shachaf> But <zzo38> O,OK works too.
04:27:36 <oerjan> why would i respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:38 <ais523> oerjan: one of the social rules you learn playing werewolf/mafia is not to respond to messages directed at other people
04:28:55 <zzo38> We aren't playing werewolf/mafia.
04:29:02 <ais523> there's no game rule against it but people will get annoyed at you if you do, because it can kind-of mess up their plans (and it looks like you're covering for the intended recipient)
04:29:41 <oerjan> oh i see. splitlong still works, somehow. perhaps it's become an internal irssi feature.
04:30:32 <pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?
04:31:49 <shachaf> ais523: I thought that was an in-person game.
04:31:55 <shachaf> Never heard of it played on IRC.
04:32:09 <ais523> shachaf: I mostly play it on web forums, although I've played it on IRC too
04:32:14 <shachaf> Do you play Contact?
04:32:21 <ais523> it works in pretty much any medium that allows for communication
04:32:24 <ais523> and I don't know what Contact is
04:32:28 <shachaf> It's a word game that can be played in person or over IRC, but I wrote a web application that implements it.
04:32:44 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that I should to add a setting for a bell in case of too long line. For my personal setting, I could assume that it uses a prefix ":zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-999-999.eastlink.ca " at the start (although it isn't actually "999") to figure out what limit to set
04:33:12 <shachaf> One person thinks of a word and reveals some prefix of it, and others try to think of clues for other words that start with that prefix.
04:33:40 <pikhq> Hrm, so there's a prefix part + PRIVMSG + target + message, in the server-to-client side portion.
04:33:42 <shachaf> If they can clue to each other successfully, one letter of the prefix is revealed.
04:34:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and "PRIVMSG" and the target and message are already counted, so the only remaining part is the prefix part, and the space that comes between it and "PRIVMSG".
04:35:50 <pikhq> There does not appear to be a maximum prefix length.
04:36:32 <zzo38> Doesn't matter now, since we can guess at it.
04:37:29 <oerjan> isn't it part of WHOIS reply for yourself?
04:37:37 <pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned.
04:37:40 <zzo38> If there is a limit for the server to client length, then if the client to server length is not a smaller maximum then you will just make the guess. As I said it can (and I think it should in other client too) be a user-configurable setting.
04:38:01 <pikhq> It's 512 both directions.
04:39:05 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and that is how to figure out, but still I should to just make the user setting (replacing "-56-48" with "-999-999" instead, in case those numbers change unexpectedly to three digits, which does seem possible).
04:39:51 <oerjan> 512 when counting CRLF, no?
04:39:55 <zzo38> (I actually want to change it to "@zzo38computer.org" instead of "@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca", but it seems that Freenode doesn't support forward-DNS cloaks.)
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04:40:19 <pikhq> oerjan: Correctly.
04:40:26 <ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?
04:41:06 <zzo38> But, in case one of my previous messages today was cut off, then please to notify me that I can repeat the part that you did not receive.
04:41:47 <pikhq> I don't know that the prefix is actually required to be a real connection?
04:41:51 <pikhq> I mean, maybe it is.
04:42:02 <pikhq> Oh. There is an entry suggesting it's intended to be.
04:42:15 <pikhq> I don't see it as a hard requirement, but it seems that's the intent.
04:42:23 <shachaf> pikhq: Isn't it about time someone invented a good build system?
04:42:37 <shachaf> Will that person be you?
04:42:49 <oerjan> zzo38: the one i saw ended with "logical and mathematically elegant,"
04:43:06 <oerjan> which seemed like it might have been cut off
04:43:28 <zzo38> ... while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, the change itself seems messy to me.
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04:44:40 <oerjan> isn't the prefix replaced with the freenode cloak if you have one?
04:45:06 <zzo38> The domain name is, but not the nickname and username.
04:46:21 <\oren\> http://make.girls.moe
04:47:18 <pikhq> Hunh.
04:52:50 <zzo38> ais523: Will you tell me what kind of stuff now is your game? Did you write any rules yet at all, or nothing yet?
04:55:27 <ais523> zzo38: I wrote some but I need to change some of it
04:59:28 <zzo38> Some of my ideas also are, that the cards can be sold in a box with all card of the set, arranged in sections by rarity (for assembling packs), and within each section by alphabetical order, which together with the included list of cards can be used to check in case any are missing.
05:00:19 <zzo38> Also would include the complete printed rules, and a DVD with open-source computer implementation of the rules and complete card database.
05:03:10 <zzo38> Some people have told me that the rarity is meaningless if they are in the boxes like that, but I disagree, because the rarities can be used to construct a "booster draft" like in Magic: the Gathering, or like sealed in Magic: the Gathering.
05:03:43 <zzo38> ais523: What do you think some of the biggest problems with Magic: the Gathering is, then?
05:04:49 <ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem
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05:05:15 <ais523> because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make
05:05:44 <ais523> in the rules I'm working on, priority is a more important part of the game (meaning that people keep track of it) and is gained much less often (making it less tedious to deal with)
05:06:13 <ais523> specifically, if it's not your turn, you can only do the equivalent of playing a spell or activating an ability if it's a response to something an opponent does
05:06:29 <ais523> (this obviously changes the balance of the game but it can be designed around)
05:07:55 <zzo38> Sirlin's "Codex" game has a different kind of solution: You cannot make any choices at all if it isn't your turn. This means that your opponent must declare blockers before you attack, instead of afterward.
05:09:10 <shachaf> i,i gain priority until end of turn
05:09:44 <ais523> zzo38: many games do that but it cuts down the tactical depth somewhat
05:12:07 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct.
05:13:21 <shachaf> ais523: Did you play Cale's favorite game, Prismata?
05:13:34 <ais523> no
05:13:43 <zzo38> Although I mean even more than in Pokemon card, where sometimes something you do does require opponent to make choices on your turn; in Codex, the rules explicitly prohibit this, in order to allow long delays of several days between turns.
05:17:11 <zzo38> However in Magic: the Gathering still the computer UI can be done, such as if you assign a key combination for each step/phase of the turn, and then if you push that key it will pass priority until that phase/step if no other player does anything and no new information is revealed. (You can also just pass priority normally.) Can also assign one key to auto-play during a mana step or such.
05:17:19 <shachaf> Oh man, correspondence Magic: The Gathering
05:17:25 <shachaf> That sounds like a good game.
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05:29:23 <oerjan> correspondence chess boxing
05:32:43 <zzo38> How are you going to fight by correspondence?
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05:35:37 <\oren\> correspondence Sid Meier's Civilization
05:38:12 <Cale> oerjan: It's on the honour system. You get a letter in the mail and it has "Bxe5. Left hook."
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05:40:25 <shachaf> Keith Johnstone talks about games like mimed tug-of-war and slow-motion tag.
05:40:53 <shachaf> Sometimes people play those games and try to win, which is obviously pretty silly.
05:43:24 <zzo38> Perhaps after I fix the bug in MIXPC with LD1N instruction, I can also to add the overpunch mode. Some characters will no longer be valid MIX characters (or even valid Hollerith characters) when overpunched, so sometimes the result is lossy, especially since the file is using 8-bit characters rather than 12-bit characters.
05:46:53 <zzo38> (Overpunch mode is something I have not seen in any other MIX implementation. The other thing I have not seen in other MIX implementations is the support to connect to an actual printer for output (although MIXPC still supports print to file, too).)
05:48:20 <zzo38> The ability to split a partially read card deck might be another thing to add, too.
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07:07:54 <ais523> shachaf: OK, I wrote up what I have so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
07:08:43 <ais523> this should hopefully be a framework that's general enough to do lots of interesting things but simple enough that it's clear how it works, even if a few of the rules look complex when written down
07:08:50 <ais523> I'm hoping it'd be more intuitive in actual play
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07:10:54 <zzo38> OK I will read too
07:13:28 <zzo38> Does the General have a different card back than the other cards?
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07:13:52 <zzo38> Or is it the same?
07:15:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought of that; within these rules it doesn't matter, so making it different might make it easier to find if it gets shuffled into a deck by mistake
07:16:26 <shachaf> You could make it a different size, too.
07:17:48 <zzo38> There are benefits in either case; it depends whether or not they should be drafted together. In Magic: the Gathering, conspiracies (which are purely optional) are drafted together with the rest of the cards.
07:18:32 <ais523> I assume that, if this game is distributed using booster packs, generals would show up in those occasionally
07:18:39 <ais523> although probably not very often as decks only need one
07:18:44 <ais523> that'd be a reason to make them the same size
07:19:42 <zzo38> I think it depends on whether or not you are going to draft them together, whether or not to make the back the same, although if they do come in the same pack that is a good enough reason to be the same size whether or not the back is the same.
07:20:38 <shachaf> I meant larger but I suppose you could make it smaller too.
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10:24:30 * b_jonas tries to read recent backlog of this channel. "I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic." and "Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells" wait, magma?
10:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can tell about the irc length limits if you want to know more details
10:27:19 <b_jonas> "<ais523> the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem / because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make" => yes, but I think you can still make a decent computer interface that allows players to rollback actions by other players and requires explicit confirm for irreversable events like revealing new information that the player doing the ac
10:28:08 <b_jonas> I think it could be made to work decently for M:tG, at least within Earthly communication lag.
10:28:50 <b_jonas> "<ais523> pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?" => yes, but the list can change dynamically
10:29:33 <b_jonas> and the list isn't even made automatically public by the IRC infrastructure, so it's not quite clear if the docs on their homepage is complete or if the DNS entry for chat.freenode points to all servers (there may be non-public servers)
10:29:49 <b_jonas> they are likely complete most of the time, but you can't tell how up to date
10:31:17 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned." => freenode has a length limit of 63 bytes on the hostname, above that it will display the ip or ipv6 address
10:32:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: one tricky part is that there's an extra byte in the received message for PRIVMSG and NOTICE messages that is only added if the client requests it with an option. It's an obsolate extension, but many clients still use it.
10:33:14 <b_jonas> "<pikhq> Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?" => not globally accross all networks, not really. not with quakenet supporting channel names up to 200 bytes.
10:34:57 <b_jonas> on freenode, 356 bytes is the definitely safe limit, but you can go longer if you know some of the target name, your nick and username and hostname (but the server can change your nick asynchly for a nick collision)
10:35:41 <b_jonas> what's this thing ais523 was talking about? is he designing a new game?
10:37:27 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> [your rules] also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary;" => that sounds like a bad idea to me. aren't there more than one very powerful Jaces, and decks with 16 planeswalkers played competitively even in Standard?
11:27:01 <b_jonas> ``` \? fizzbuzz # lol
11:27:31 <HackEgo> Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords.
11:28:01 <b_jonas> "<ais523> zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible" => what was the context for this? what is that set of rules?
11:29:54 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple." => wow. that's some serious future indeed. I'll probably buy a new mobile phone this year or next year, and it will be one I can charge with these USB charger thingies that I'm already using to charge my camera, bluetooth microphone headphone adapter, and electric razor.
11:30:08 <b_jonas> (although the camera requires the other kind of cable)
11:32:22 <shachaf> Your other things all use USB type-C?
11:33:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: the razor and the headphone adapter uses the same plug as most current mobile phones. I'm not sure if that's "type-C"
11:34:01 <b_jonas> my other things aren't charged by USB
11:36:48 <b_jonas> in particular, my mobile phone is charged by a round plug DC charger
11:37:04 <b_jonas> it has a USB port, but only for data, not charge
11:38:58 <b_jonas> the camera uses the other, slightly less common USB port, which some other cameras use too
11:43:23 <b_jonas> (the electric toothbrush doesn't use USB either, but that's probably a good thing)
11:46:30 <shachaf> Ah, probably not.
11:46:44 <shachaf> USB type C is the future, man.
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11:47:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't believe it. people keep saying that the current standard is the future and I should buy into it now because everything and everyone will use only that in the future, but it often lasts only a few years or at most ten years. I'm older than to believe that.
11:48:26 <b_jonas> It's a great way to sell things, I admit that, and I've been tricked by it several times during my life.
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11:52:53 <b_jonas> you know what I'd like? a calendar that displays both the name of the month and the number of the month together.
11:53:06 <b_jonas> most calendars have just one or the other
11:53:22 <b_jonas> but I actually use both and need to know both
11:58:50 <\oren\> well english names have numbers in them, but the wrong numbers
12:03:03 <Hoolootwo> just use the discordian calendar, only 5 months to rememer
12:06:26 <APic> Aaand St. Tibb's Day, but only in Leapyears ☺
12:07:24 <APic> s/ibb/ib/
12:15:34 <b_jonas> @Hoolootwo: but I don't want to remember anything. that's the whole point. the calendar is there to remember everything instead of me.
12:15:34 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
12:16:37 <b_jonas> Even in our calendar, I'm generally only confused about the matching of names and numbers in three months now.
12:16:54 <b_jonas> Or maybe four.
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12:48:47 <Taneb> ICFP is very busy
12:51:20 <int-e> Yeah I'm noticing this too.
12:51:45 <int-e> Though L1 is still pretty empty right now.
12:52:18 <b_jonas> what? an empty L1 cache? that's a miracle
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12:53:11 <int-e> b_jonas: you're out
12:53:30 <int-e> http://icfp17.sigplan.org/room/icfp-2017-venue-l1
12:54:32 <int-e> Well at least I've seen SPJ from afar :P
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12:58:54 <int-e> and in any case it's filling up now
13:01:46 <Taneb> int-e: it may have been pretty empty but it may have in fact contained me
13:02:55 <Taneb> But L1 suddenly got very not empty at all
13:07:48 <Taneb> Although I somehow have a free seat either side of me
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13:49:37 <Taneb> int-e: are you here all week?
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14:35:44 <zseri> hi again
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14:46:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Natyre]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53028&oldid=51308 * Keymaker * (+47) Clarified one sentence.
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14:56:06 <int-e> Taneb: I'm leaving on Saturday
14:56:23 <int-e> now back in L2 :P
14:57:11 <int-e> ("back" in the sense that FSCD is what I'm registered for)
15:12:09 <b_jonas> ICFP contest full results are now available at https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/
15:12:24 <b_jonas> not too surprising since the prizes are given on the conference
15:13:32 <b_jonas> ah no
15:13:34 <b_jonas> it's not full results
15:13:48 <b_jonas> it's just almost full results, because they hold back the full results until the prize ceremony
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15:56:54 <mroman> moo
15:57:16 <mroman> how does stuff like if (x > z) || (q <= r) assemble on x86?
15:58:30 <int-e> if?
15:59:12 <mroman> or not if
16:00:03 <int-e> in any case there is no single answer. mov rax, x; cmp rax, y; jg l; mov rax, q; cmp rax, r; jle l; jmp g; l: ... g: ... is the most naive way but no good compiler will do that.
16:00:29 <mroman> https://godbolt.org/g/Atht9E
16:00:32 <mroman> so it needs jumps
16:00:34 <mroman> indeed
16:01:27 <int-e> there's set<cc> <reg> where <cc> is a condition code (like g or le above) and r is a register
16:01:38 <mroman> but with -O3 it will be setg
16:01:44 <int-e> which doesn't jump, so doesn't mess up branch prediction.
16:02:14 <mroman> I was planning on adding equ, lt, lte, instructions
16:02:23 <mroman> such as equ dst a b
16:02:29 <mroman> which sets dst to 1 if a == b otherwise 0
16:02:43 <mroman> this way you don't need two instructions
16:03:18 <mroman> (I was also planning on having a cmp instruction)
16:03:25 <mroman> (which can be used for conditional instructions)
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16:50:12 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9sE2S8Pho
16:52:56 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is Wizards of the Coast who removed the planeswalker uniqueness rule. The new way seems logical and makes sense to me, although the change itself looks messy to me (retroactively changing planeswalkers to legendary).
16:53:56 <alercah> zzo38: are you talking about the M14 rule changes?
16:54:15 <alercah> because that did not retroactively change them to legendary
16:56:30 <zzo38> No I mean the future change
16:58:19 <alercah> ah
16:58:22 <alercah> I hadn't seen them
17:00:09 <int-e> but wasn't the legendary rule changed as well not too long ago?
17:03:28 <zzo38> Do you mean this change? https://yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/dgm-m14/#D704.5k.
17:03:42 <zzo38> Or a more recent change?
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17:14:17 <int-e> that one
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17:41:02 <zseri> I plan to drop the load (l) and store (v) commands of TEWNLSWAC
17:41:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: WHAT?
17:41:24 <b_jonas> let me look that up. that looks strange.
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17:41:50 <zseri> because I can emulate them using nested objects.
17:45:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see where that happened. was this recent?
17:47:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: unless it's a change so recent it's not in the Comp Rules yet, it doesn't look to me like they changed planeswalkers to legendary. the changed the legend rule and the planeswalker uniqueness rule at some point so they only count within permanents controlled by one player, not across players, but planeswalkers still care about their 'walker type, not their name.
17:47:31 <b_jonas> whereas legendary permanents care about their name.
17:47:46 <alercah> b_jonas: they just announced it
17:48:12 <b_jonas> alercah: can you point to a source?
17:48:16 <alercah> b_jonas: google can
17:48:17 <alercah> hth
17:50:25 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics
17:50:32 <b_jonas> no wonder I hadn't heard that yet
17:51:03 <b_jonas> how is that going to work in Modern with the 16-planeswalker decks? will we have a 12-Jace deck now? or did those always only work in Standard?
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17:53:16 <b_jonas> well, "Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret" still comfortably fits the type line with the new ugly font, so it's technically possible. it might even be better for understanding, and they probably know more about whether it turns Jace to too dangerous
17:53:59 <b_jonas> the fact that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is still banned in Modern probably helps
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17:59:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53029&oldid=53012 * Zseri * (-226) removed sdat stack (update with interpreter)
17:59:19 <zseri> ok, done.
18:07:29 <zzo38> I did say it is a future rule, not a current one.
18:08:30 <zzo38> Still, that kind of change does seem messy to me, even though I think the new way is sensible.
18:11:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are only a few cards that care about non-creatures being legendary, such as one in Amonkhet and a few in Kamigawa.
18:12:07 <b_jonas> some of those cards get better, some worse.
18:12:21 <b_jonas> and yes, I know we have planeswalker creatures, but printed and animated after the fact
18:12:37 <b_jonas> ok, technically none of them are printed as a creature
18:12:51 <b_jonas> but one or two have a built-in ability to turn them to a creature
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19:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53030&oldid=53029 * Zseri * (+45) symbol vs variable
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19:12:16 * int-e has confirmed the existence of Taneb (though this is really a zero knowledge proof)
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19:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53031&oldid=53030 * Zseri * (+38) /* Binary Commands */
19:19:17 <* Taneb> conversely has the beginnings of an existence proof for int-e
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19:52:12 <mroman> dear gogogle
19:52:15 <mroman> *google
19:52:16 <mroman> fuck you
19:52:22 <mroman> please stop thinking I'm not human.
19:52:30 <mroman> kthxbye
20:02:04 <int-e> mroman: don't be a bot, have a cookie!
20:04:31 <mroman> I'm a bot.
20:04:33 <mroman> With a failing liver.
20:04:52 <shachaf> You have a failing liver?
20:07:54 <mroman> My transaminases are elevated.
20:07:58 <mroman> they don't really know why.
20:08:06 <mroman> but it usually indicates some damage to the liver.
20:09:58 <mroman> thus it might not be the liver failing
20:10:09 <mroman> it might be something else failing that just happens to also punch the liver in the nuts
20:10:51 <zzo38> I think that the rule about maximum health being reduced to also reduce current health should be clarified.
20:17:45 <mroman> ?
20:17:48 <mroman> Magic the Gathering?
20:18:12 <ais523> mroman: probably the TCG work-in-progress that I posted here last night
20:18:18 <zzo38> Also I think can be simplify by the manoeuvres not giving name for each action also, and instead to have something like "manoeuvre name: negative resources, source -> destination, positive resources: action"
20:18:19 <ais523> beacuse shachaf's been bugging me about it for months
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20:18:44 <ais523> zzo38: I like giving things names because it makes it possible for cards to talk about them
20:19:00 <ais523> one big problem that Magic had was not differentiating between, say, fire and lightning spells mechanically early on
20:19:06 <zzo38> For example "Start: hand -> ready, logistics 5: End the turn."
20:19:09 <ais523> meaning that they can't draw a mechanical distinction nowadays
20:19:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I have mention that a few days ago. they don't have a damage type system.
20:19:48 <ais523> massive in particular is something that things probably want to care about
20:19:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: what was this rules thing you were talking about earlier?
20:20:00 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but the manoeuvres and aspects still themself have names
20:20:14 <wob_jonas> "massive"?
20:20:21 <ais523> also that manoeuvre in particular would make it possible to end the turn with a card on the tactics track; the rules handle that state but it's something I'd imagine you'd do rarely if at all
20:20:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: "massive: end your rurn"
20:20:34 <ais523> *turn
20:20:50 <ais523> basically, this game doesn't have summoning sickness
20:21:09 <zzo38> ais523: I do mean "end your turn", and doesn't the rules say you can't end any turn if there are any tactics?
20:21:11 <ais523> so the easiest way to make something that's ready to defend as soon as it's played, but can't attack as soon as it's played, is to end the turn when it becomes ready
20:21:24 <ais523> zzo38: not via the normal methods
20:21:30 <ais523> but I assume rules on the cards override the rules of the game
20:23:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: what game is this again? is it the one you're planning that I don't know much about?
20:24:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: it doesn't even have a name yet
20:24:20 <ais523> here are my notes: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt
20:24:47 <wob_jonas> is it a trading card game? if so, then we can just call it Feather: TCG; or Feather: Collectible Card Game.
20:26:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I was also trying to figure out if I could make something of a toy TCG, but I quickly realized I'm bad at designing entirely new games or writing new stories, I should just stick to analyzing existing games and existing stories.
20:26:03 <zzo38> Possibly, can then to write the Haskell program (or some other programming language) to make an implementation on computer, and can be made literate programming so that this is the rule document it explain the rule including by computer program too.
20:26:15 <wob_jonas> I did come up with a few mechanics, but they don't really work together.
20:26:21 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think it has anything to do with Feather
20:26:24 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What did you come up with?
20:27:17 <wob_jonas> zzo38: probably the most useful idea I had is that when creatures attack you (which normally happens once per turn) you get to evade (escape, run away from) one for free by default.
20:27:51 <wob_jonas> in that case they don't deal combat damage to you, but you can also do this if you also don't want to deal combat damage to them
20:28:49 <wob_jonas> and then there can be a ton of abilities that modify this, both on creatures (fast creatures you can't evade, slow creatures so you can evade any number of slow creatures or up to one non-slow creature) or abilities affecting the player (boots of speed to evade an extra creature per combat)
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20:30:21 <ais523> `card-by-name darksteel myr
20:30:30 <HackEgo> Darksteel Myr \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Myr \ 0/1 \ Indestructible (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this creature. If its toughness is 0 or less, it's still put into its owner's graveyard.) \ SOM-U
20:31:08 <ais523> wob_jonas: being able to cancel one attack a turn (unless it's hard to stop) is apparently worth 3 mana
20:32:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: in M:tG. I'm not saying this rule in context of M:tG
20:32:14 <wob_jonas> but good to know
20:32:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I was just thinking "M:tG has done something similar"
20:32:35 <ais523> although Darksteel Myr doesn't have defender, which makes it better if you increase its power somehow
20:33:30 <ais523> `card-by-name maze of ith
20:33:31 <HackEgo> Maze of Ith \ Land \ {T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. \ DK-U, EMA-R, ME4-R, V12-M
20:33:54 <ais523> that also has a similar effect, although IIRC it's normally considered broken
20:34:13 <ais523> (as you can see from the set of sets it's printed in!)
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> If you asked that in advance, the cheapest I'd have known is four mana, for Trap Runner (which works on fliers and even unblockable creatures by the way) or Uncle Istvan (a very old pseudo-indestructible creature)
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20:42:50 <wob_jonas> ah right. Order of the Stars. that works well enough for this in practice
20:43:20 <ais523> `card-by-name order of the stars
20:43:22 <wob_jonas> in fact, wait
20:43:25 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Beloved Chaplain
20:43:26 <wob_jonas> even better
20:43:47 <wob_jonas> that's straight two mana and is good against any creature it can block
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Beloved Chaplain \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ Protection from creatures \ OD-U
20:44:13 <HackEgo> Order of the Stars \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/1 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ As Order of the Stars enters the battlefield, choose a color. \ Order of the Stars has protection from the chosen color. \ GPT-U
20:44:15 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about that one. I used Inviolability, which is an aura version.
20:44:35 <ais523> you could make the argument for mother of runes, actually
20:44:39 <wob_jonas> haha, its flavor text is actually “Nomad and Nantuko, eagle and elephant; all the birds and beasts are charmed by his quiet dignity.”
20:44:44 <ais523> she can block a creature, then give herself protection from it after the block
20:44:53 <ais523> although that's hardly the most broken thing you can do with that card
20:45:00 <wob_jonas> the quiet dignity in that quote and its art is in nice contrast with Inviolability, which has the opposite flavor
20:45:43 <ais523> also I don't recognise those set codes
20:45:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: not "then give protection". they all already have protection almost all the time.
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20:46:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: I was talking about mother of runes
20:46:07 <ais523> `card-by-name mother of runes
20:46:08 <wob_jonas> GPT is Guildpact, from Ravnica block
20:46:09 <HackEgo> Mother of Runes \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. \ UL-U, CMD-U, EMA-R, DDO-U
20:46:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, that does more
20:46:30 <wob_jonas> oh right, that's the expensive one for one mana
20:46:32 <wob_jonas> yes, that's even better
20:46:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't pick up when you mentioned that
20:46:44 <ais523> oh, OD must be Odyssey
20:46:58 <ais523> mother of runes is probably the best creature costing {W}
20:47:16 <wob_jonas> I don't think it's the best, but it might be close to
20:47:34 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of competition for best
20:47:38 <ais523> what do you think is better?
20:47:42 <wob_jonas> and depends on the environment
20:48:02 <wob_jonas> some environments have longer matches with many creatures, in those the Soul Sisters are probably better
20:50:56 <wob_jonas> and I suspect the best creature costing {W} would be more expensive in money than what Mother of the Runes cost for uncommon
21:08:29 <wob_jonas> OH NO more double-faced cards with a land on the back face and a new pair of symbols identifying which face is the front and which is the back. STOP THAT, Wizards. You shouldn't have printed the first one either.
21:08:47 <zzo38> I don't like double face cards
21:09:10 <int-e> wait what does that do to the sleeve market?
21:09:56 <wob_jonas> and the icon for the back face is even fucking the same as the land icon on Future Sight timeshifted futuristic border cards. That's even worse.
21:10:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: not much, I think.
21:11:28 <wob_jonas> (Ok, technically the icon isn't exactly the same, but it is very similar.)
21:11:55 <wob_jonas> (Maybe it is exactly the same. I can't tell from this low resolution.)
21:12:19 <wob_jonas> Ah wait! This one isn't so bad
21:12:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: Wizards have a perpetual problem trying to identify which side of a DFC is which, in an objective way that can be written into the rules
21:12:46 <wob_jonas> it has a reminder text on the back side that says it's the back side
21:12:46 <wob_jonas> then I guess it's OK
21:12:54 <ais523> I think that's why they have the reminder text
21:13:36 <int-e> so what do the rules say about faking a reminder text?
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. it doesn't help that they keep messing up the Gatherer, so very often double-faced cards (and flip cards and split cards) show up wrong in Gatherer itself. If even they don't know, how should I know?
21:13:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: faking in what sense?
21:13:58 <ais523> that said, I can't imagine that the reminder text is the actual rules-defined way to tell the sides apart
21:14:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it's probably not. but that's not a problem here
21:14:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: M:tgO sometimes has a bug where it allows half a split card to exist on its own
21:14:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: my problem is that if you happen to never look at the FRONT of the card, you might not realize the card is double-faced, and think it's a single face land
21:15:12 <ais523> you'd notice when you tried to put it into a deck
21:15:20 <ais523> or sleeve it
21:15:30 <ais523> or do people sleeve cards without ever looking at the other side?
21:16:20 <int-e> oh god, there are sanctioned proxies ("checklist cards")?!
21:16:35 <ais523> int-e: they're not really proxies, they look nothing like the original
21:16:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I probably do sometimes sleeve cards that way when making a deck, but I already know more or less what cards I have in my collection and would know if I had a double-sided card (I have zero. I also have no flip cards. I do have a few split cards.)
21:16:50 <ais523> their only purpose is to have a normal back so that they can represent the position of a DFC in a deck without giving it away, even if you don't use sleeves
21:17:49 <int-e> ais523: they are proxies in the literal sense; they stand for the card indicated on the checklist.
21:17:57 <ais523> btw, part of the purpose of the reserves in my game is so that if you want to do something DFC-like, you can just fetch the other card from the reserves
21:18:09 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, it's sort of backwards. during a game, the checklist cards are the normal cards you use most of the time, and you can use the double-faced to represent the card in public zones. when buying or submitting a deck or drafting, that's when you need the double-faced card to be allowed to use it, and the checklist cards are penny cards you alw
21:18:09 <wob_jonas> ays have or can get access to.
21:18:36 <mroman> this channel is full of nerds.
21:18:52 <ais523> they're a combination token supply and sideboard and back-DFC-face and tuner for tunable cards (i.e. I'm envisaging cards that can affect opponent's cards only if you have a copy in your own reserves, so you can choose to hate out specific cards)
21:19:04 <int-e> `quote nerd
21:19:06 <HackEgo> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 482) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
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21:21:14 <zzo38> ais523: Ah, OK I suppose that can work, I like that
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21:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53032&oldid=53011 * Stefan-hering * (+167)
21:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Javagrid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53033&oldid=53032 * Stefan-hering * (-48)
21:25:08 <zseri> bye
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21:35:44 <int-e> mroman: great, now I'm wondering what the implementation limit of the number of users in a channel in ircd-seven is
21:36:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't think there's a strict limit for that.
21:36:16 <int-e> (how else would an IRC channel be "full"?)
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21:38:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: but in practice the biggest legitimate channels in freenode top out below 2000 joined, and those are moderated the most quickly so there won't be much flood on them, so I don't think any individual big channel would cause a problem
21:39:07 <wob_jonas> especially because those less than 2000 nicks will be distributed decently around the more than 10 servers
21:46:49 <fizzie> int-e: If configured with --enable-small-net, 256; otherwise 32768.
21:48:04 <fizzie> Assuming MEMBER_HEAP_SIZE measures that. It might be something else. But the BAN_HEAP_SIZE sounded reasonable for a banlist size limit.
21:49:09 <fizzie> Never mind. Apparently that's not the limit, that's just the allocation block size.
21:49:55 <wob_jonas> fizzie: you could ask #freenode if you want to know for sure. they're usually helpful about these sorts of IRC software questions, as long as it's software used on freenode
21:50:05 <wob_jonas> I mean server and services software
21:50:07 <fizzie> I like digging into code more.
21:50:15 <wob_jonas> sure, that's fine too
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> I've done it myself a few times, but usually I just ask #freenode
21:50:37 <wob_jonas> (or TIAS for things where that's possible)
21:51:09 <wob_jonas> (but I can't really test for what inter-server race conditions are possible, especially not ones that require a netsplit at the right time)
21:54:06 <fizzie> No explicit limit in the same place (conf_channel_table) the ban list is configured, so maybe there isn't a limit. Anyway, it's kind of implicitly limited by the number of clients of the network.
21:55:32 <wob_jonas> (nor can I easily check for what the longest possible hostname is, so I just had to ask that)
21:55:46 <wob_jonas> (I'm not going to set up reverse DNS entries for that)
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22:33:17 <fizzie> Hm. The wiki's started being intermittently slow again, at least according to the graphs. (It was surprisingly snappy for a while after the CaC downtime.)
22:34:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-response-time.png
22:35:48 <shachaf> is that what'sitcalled
22:35:59 <shachaf> It looks like it's not just the wiki but everything?
22:36:04 <ais523> shachaf: so what do you think of my TCG rules so far?
22:36:05 <shachaf> What's overall?
22:36:37 <shachaf> ais523: I read them but it's hard to see how some of the rules would play out without examples.
22:36:43 <ais523> shachaf: right
22:36:52 <shachaf> Of course those are a lot more work.
22:36:55 <ais523> I have a general idea in mind but still don't have the details pinned far enough down that I can make examples
22:37:03 <ais523> it may be that some of the rules would have to change
22:37:07 <shachaf> It sounds like this game is meant to be played both printed and on the computer?
22:37:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: well sure, it's clearly not final
22:37:17 <ais523> shachaf: yes
22:37:59 <shachaf> There are a lot of design choices that you can only realistically make in software.
22:38:41 <ais523> right
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's a good question. what are the edge conditions you're designing for? a collectible/trading card game (as in, players can buy cards and choose which ones to put in their decks, but the game tries to be such that you won't have a linearly more powerful deck by just buying more powerful cards), two players making separate decks from their
22:38:55 <wob_jonas> collection or draft independently,
22:39:06 <ais523> one of the design choices was to have status and current health as the only tracked values needed to explain the gamestate
22:39:30 <ais523> (this is the reason that "overhealing" increases combat damage, as that's a common sort of semipermanent change to want to make)
22:39:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: also is it supposed to be playable with just the paper cards and not much other tools, esp. no computer,
22:39:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure about "what'sitcalled", but sure, yes, it's generally slow. Though a lot of the non-"wiki" things are still wiki-related, that's just filtering to actual MediaWiki page loads.
22:39:48 <shachaf> grafana
22:39:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, it's meant to be playable with just cards and counters for current health
22:39:56 <fizzie> It's grafana, yes.
22:40:04 <ais523> it's also meant to be much simpler than M:tG UI-wise on a computer
22:40:21 <shachaf> Priority is pretty tricky to implement well on a computer, I imagine.
22:40:37 <ais523> right, priority here passes much less often than M:tG
22:40:47 <ais523> it's pretty much entirely "do you want to respond to this?"
22:40:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't really see why this would be much simpler UI-wise than M:tG, but obviously it depends on the details like what cards you have
22:41:14 <ais523> and only one person having priority at any given time means that there's no arguments over who plays a card "first"
22:41:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: think about one player going to combat in M:tG, when the other player has an instant in their hand that they can play
22:42:01 <ais523> explaining how that works even in M:tG in paper is complicated, and in fact there had to be a rules change recently due to people exploiting the nature of the priority passing rules
22:42:15 <ais523> and on a computer, you either have to click OK a lot of times or configure "always yield" settings for the various parts of combat
22:42:59 <shachaf> What rules change?
22:43:36 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC it was a change to exactly what happened if someone said "go to combat"
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's because the current UI sucks. you could have a better UI that allowed you to continue specifying your actions assuming the other players use the default until either (a) you deliberately want to wait for other players to confirm they do the default to avoid revealing info or (b) the game would have to reveal you some info that you do
22:43:54 <wob_jonas> n't already know, eg. drawing a card.
22:44:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: if you play the game that way, which is sort of similar to what happens when you play on paper, then there's much less messing with priority.
22:44:38 <wob_jonas> if the other player decides to not do just the default actions, then the game rolls back to the point where he first doesn't do the default actions.
22:45:10 <wob_jonas> this is implementable by computer, and I think it would be easier to use and learn for the players than the current system.
22:45:29 <ais523> shachaf: see a) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/24/policy-changes-for-amonkhet/ (from "Communication" onwards), b) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/27/how-to-think-about-the-new-combat-shortcut/
22:45:36 <wob_jonas> (it still only works if you have no more lag than earth-mooon sized ones between the players)
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22:45:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: you might want to see those too
22:45:59 <wob_jonas> I think I've heard of them, but let me check them
22:46:03 <ais523> it's really good evidence of quite how complicated M:tG gets in corner cases to stop people pulling priority scams on each other
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22:56:19 <ais523> hmm, that second article I linked seems to think there's a card named "Grizzly Bear"
22:56:59 <wob_jonas> ais: no, it seems to think "Grizzly Bear" is a reasonable shortcut to name a creature
22:57:25 <ais523> I guess
22:57:34 <wob_jonas> which it is I think, although it's sort of moot because that card is more an example there than a real card used in tournament
22:57:41 <ais523> but in that case "attack with grizzly bears" is ambiguous as it's implied that there are two of them, so are you attacking with one or both?
22:57:57 <ais523> although I guess that it'd be obvious if they didn't have vigilance
22:58:02 <wob_jonas> I use such simple well-known cards as examples in rules questions too, even though I don't actually play Grizzly Bears in my decks (I do have that card in my collection)
22:58:44 <ais523> I think I own one as well? but it isn't a very good card
22:59:20 <wob_jonas> I own Flashcoat Bears which is practically always better, unless you have Petroglyphs
22:59:25 <wob_jonas> no wait
22:59:30 <wob_jonas> it's called Ashcoat Bears
22:59:35 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Ashcoat Bears
22:59:38 <HackEgo> No output.
22:59:40 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Ashcoat Bear
22:59:41 <HackEgo> Ashcoat Bear \ 1G \ Creature -- Bear \ 2/2 \ Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.) \ TSP-C
22:59:45 <wob_jonas> that then
23:00:13 <wob_jonas> and I don't even play that one
23:00:45 <wob_jonas> But everyone knows about that card, which is why it's great for rules examples
23:01:10 <ais523> `card-by-name kalonian tusker
23:01:11 <HackEgo> Kalonian Tusker \ GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ M14-U
23:01:20 <ais523> still not all that good, but better in a green deck
23:02:37 <ais523> I'm busy looking through all the 3/3s for 2
23:02:48 <ais523> smuggler's copter is probably the best (and indeed, got banned in standard)
23:02:53 <ais523> `card-by-name smuggler's copter
23:02:54 <HackEgo> Smuggler's Copter \ 2 \ Artifact -- Vehicle \ 3/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Smuggler's Copter attacks or blocks, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card. \ Crew 1 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total power 1 or more: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.) \ KLD-R
23:03:20 <ais523> the drawback turned out not to be nearly large enough
23:05:06 <wob_jonas> yeah, but that one is relatively new. If you have the double green mana, back in my days Elvish Warrior or Simic Guildmage were the most decent choices, then later we got Garruk's Companion.
23:05:28 <wob_jonas> If you want only one colored mana, there's also Stonewood Invoker and later Woodland Changeling which are slightly better than the bears.
23:05:54 <ais523> the guildmage cycle is one of the things that started jading me to Magic
23:05:56 <wob_jonas> (Simic Guildmage and Stonewood Invoker and Woodland Changeling are elves)
23:06:12 <ais523> I thought "a 2/2 with no drawbacks for {R/B}{R/B} is bigger than those colours normally get"
23:09:07 <wob_jonas> it was at that time. these days we at least have 2/2 with no drawbacks for RR
23:09:47 <wob_jonas> And Black Knight always existed, and was printed in large numbers, but I don't think there were many other choices for a 2/2 for BB with no drawbacks
23:10:30 <wob_jonas> (before Kamigawa)
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23:12:09 <ais523> `card-by-name ash zealot
23:12:10 <HackEgo> Ash Zealot \ RR \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 2/2 \ First strike, haste \ Whenever a player casts a spell from a graveyard, Ash Zealot deals 3 damage to that player. \ RTR-R
23:12:11 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, not a game rules change.
23:12:20 <ais523> shachaf: tournament rules change
23:12:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: that one does have a drawback of course
23:12:56 <ais523> OK, technically speaking ash zealot has a drawback? but it's hardly ever going to come up (especially if you build a deck accordingly
23:13:01 <ais523> )
23:13:04 <wob_jonas> yeah
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23:18:18 <wob_jonas> but Ash Zealot is much newer
23:18:32 <wob_jonas> it's from RTR, that's lots of years later than ravnica with the guildmages
23:21:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, maybe you're sort of right and something like those rules might avoid some of the priority shenanigans. but of course the cost is that you don't yet have twenty years of history you have to be compatible with, or even twenty years of carefully designed future cards with enough new thing each year to keep players interested.
23:21:43 <wob_jonas> but yes, some of the priority problems may have been avoided by designing against them from the start.
23:21:54 <wob_jonas> still, I don't think it's that big of a difference.
23:24:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I believe this sort of the priority problem is the #1 reason that online Magic isn't more popular
23:28:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: is it? I thought it was mostly because people don't want to buy both paper cards and online cards, and paper is the obvious choice
23:29:11 <wob_jonas> I imagine a few years into the future cards would have unique identifiers printed on it (unique per copy) so you can easily load them into your online account, but even that solves only half of the problem.
23:29:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: compare Hearthstone to Duels of the Planeswalkers
23:30:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: M:tG is old. it started when online wasn't really possible yet. so the first people started in paper, and most people start playing with their friends, and so matching their friends' choice of paper vs online.
23:31:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: Hearthstone started in 2014 and was designed as an online game in first place
23:31:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: also the original rules weren't very thought out
23:31:29 <ais523> a lot of progress has been made at trying to tame the chaos
23:31:33 <wob_jonas> sure
23:31:38 <wob_jonas> that's definitely true
23:31:50 <wob_jonas> M:tG is the most popular TCG only because it was the first one
23:32:00 <wob_jonas> and I'm not even sure it's still the most popular
23:32:15 <wob_jonas> but it probably is
23:32:16 <ais523> it probably is?
23:32:22 <ais523> it's apparently had a lot of growth recently
23:32:28 <ais523> despite doing its best to drive away all the existing players
23:32:48 <ais523> from BFZ to Amonkhet, they appear to have had no idea how to balance the game
23:33:02 <ais523> and had to make emergency changes to their internal processes in an attempt to bring things back under control
23:33:12 <shachaf> I haven't played any of those sets.
23:33:25 <shachaf> Has it gotten much worse than before?
23:33:40 <ais523> there was the famous incident a while back when they declared (on the banned and restricted announcement day) that they weren't banning a card, then had to emergency ban it a few days later
23:34:20 <ais523> shachaf: we've had four Standard bans over the last year or so (Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, (Emrakul, the Promised End), Felidar Guardian)
23:34:34 <ais523> Magic hardly ever bans cards from Standard, when they do it's normally a sign that they really screwed up
23:34:54 <ais523> as it's a) a pretty small format, making it easier to catch problems in it, b) one of the two main formats they focus on when balancing
23:35:03 <ais523> BFZ block additionally managed to break Modern
23:35:06 <ais523> and lead to bans there, too
23:37:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: anyway, many M:tG interface problems are a consequence of the way rules changed over time
23:37:47 <ais523> originally you had to float mana before playing spells, which is simple enough
23:37:59 <ais523> but people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell, so the rules changed to let you generate mana then too
23:38:12 <ais523> and now we have a situation where floating mana exists but is rarely used, and spells have two sequences for playing them
23:38:25 <ais523> it'd have been a lot neater to just not have a mana pool from the start, but it's too late to change now
23:38:53 <wob_jonas> hmm
23:39:36 <wob_jonas> yes, I can sort of see why that would complicate the interface
23:44:37 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, what?
23:44:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what's unclear?
23:44:56 <shachaf> When I learned the rules of the game in 2013, I thought you always had to use mana from your pool to cast spell. It seemed simple enough.
23:45:04 <ais523> shachaf: that hasn't been true for ages
23:45:24 <shachaf> Eventually I learned that you can announce the spell first, and then activate mana abilities to pay for it.
23:45:38 <shachaf> And that there are all sorts of complexities there.
23:45:48 <shachaf> But now you say that originally it worked the way I thought?
23:46:14 <shachaf> Why did they ever change it? That's such a straightforward way to handle it.
23:46:16 <ais523> shachaf: in early Magic, yes
23:46:21 <ais523> and because people kept doing it wrong
23:46:30 <shachaf> "people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell" -- that's definitely not an excuse.
23:46:44 <ais523> the Magic designers/developers/rules team seem to think that it's better to change the rules to allow for human nature, than to try to fight it
23:46:47 <shachaf> You can just say that it's a shortcut or whatever you want that has the same effect. No need to make a big rules change for it.
23:46:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the mana is in the pool, but during the process of casting a spell or activating the ability, you get a chance to activate mana abilities (with a few rare exceptions) if the spell or ability needs mana payment
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23:47:07 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Yes, I know how it works now.
23:47:23 <ais523> shachaf: another big reason is cards that let people make payments unexpectedly
23:47:30 <ais523> `card-by-name rhystic study
23:47:30 <HackEgo> Rhystic Study \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}. \ PR-C
23:47:37 <ais523> err, not thato ne
23:47:43 <ais523> but the rhystic cycle generally
23:48:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: also when they added that rule, it didn't make the rules too complicated, because a few actions demanded mana payment by a player other than the one who plays the ability, those existed ages ago, and they already had to support activating mana abilities to pay mana.
23:48:02 <ais523> "opponents can pay {1} or something good happens to you" is way more powerful if the opponent had to keep {1} floating all the time
23:48:11 <ais523> under the current rules, they can just generate the {1} on the spot
23:48:21 <wob_jonas> ah, ais was faster
23:48:23 <shachaf> A better reason would be that there are various non-mana payments that you make as you announce the spell/ability, and that there's no reason for mana to be different.
23:50:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that doesn't sound like a good reason to me. you'd still make the mana payments during announcing the spell or ability, only now you can also activate most mana abilities (which generate most of your mana) at that time
23:50:23 <shachaf> I kind of like that one interaction that these rules make possible.
23:50:46 <shachaf> E.g.
23:50:49 <shachaf> `card-by-name wall of roots
23:50:50 <HackEgo> Wall of Roots \ 1G \ Creature -- Plant Wall \ 0/5 \ Defender \ Put a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots: Add {G} to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn. \ MI-C, TSP-S, ARC-C
23:51:35 <shachaf> If you had a spell that costs {G} and as an additional cost requires you to sacrifice a creature, and you have a Wall of Roots with four -0/-1 counters on it, you could use it to pay for the spell.
23:51:51 <ais523> this is arguably a problem for the learnability of Magic
23:52:01 <wob_jonas> ugh no. it generates lots of really ugly interactions, mostly because you can do heavy effects like moving cards between zones for the cost of a mana ability, and that can in turn immediately generate even heavier effects, including players leaving the game. it's totally rare, but shouldn't be possible.
23:52:06 <ais523> as many such tricks work and many such tricks don't and it can need an intricate knowledge of the rules to work out which is which
23:52:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: you're reminding me of the tricks you can use in multiplayer games to pick on players via conceding at specific moments
23:52:46 <wob_jonas> I think the idea that a player can lose immediately, rather than only the next time state-based effects are checked, is a bad idea, complicates multiplayer rules a whole lot
23:52:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but it can happen without conceding
23:53:03 <wob_jonas> rarely, but it can
23:53:05 <ais523> some playgroups actually have a house rule that you have to wait until the stack is empty before conceding, in order to prevent that happening
23:53:19 <wob_jonas> from indirect effects by a mana ability
23:53:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I assume this involves replacement effects? things like paying your last point of life aren't fast enough
23:53:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: uh, I don't quite remember.
23:53:50 <wob_jonas> maybe I'm just stupid here and conceding is the only way
23:54:24 <wob_jonas> but even then, without players losing, there are rules patching around the problem that activating mana abilities may require you to reveal new information like drawing a card. those information are hidden because of extra rules.
23:54:32 <wob_jonas> to preserve rollbackability
23:55:21 <ais523> `card-by-name lich
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ As Lich enters the battlefield, you lose life equal to your life total. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many nontoken permanents. If you can't, you lose the game. \ When Lich is put into a graveyard
23:55:29 <ais523> oh, that's a triggered ability
23:55:36 <ais523> I think there's a card like that where it's a replacement ability
23:55:40 <wob_jonas> (the other problem is of course that stupid Wurm.)
23:55:41 <ais523> so it lets the game loss happen at mana ability speed
23:55:45 <ais523> `card-by-name nefarious lich
23:55:46 <HackEgo> Nefarious Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ If damage would be dealt to you, exile that many cards from your graveyard instead. If you can't, you lose the game. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game. \ OD-R
23:55:54 <ais523> right, that's a replacement ability
23:56:15 <wob_jonas> ah yes, the original lich too
23:56:22 <ais523> although I'm not sure offhand that you can deal damage at mana ability speed
23:56:26 <ais523> original lich is triggered
23:56:26 <wob_jonas> no wait, not the original one
23:57:12 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Adarkar Wastes
23:57:13 <HackEgo> Adarkar Wastes \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to you. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R
23:58:16 <ais523> oh, I thought that cycle went via a trigger somehow
23:58:21 <ais523> but it doesn't, so that works I think
23:58:25 <wob_jonas> that's the more popular title, the shocklands
23:59:04 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Watery Grave
23:59:05 <HackEgo> Watery Grave \ Land -- Island Swamp \ ({T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool.) \ As Watery Grave enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Watery Grave enters the battlefield tapped. \ RAV-R, GTC-R, EXP-M
23:59:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: I came across the painlands first
23:59:23 <wob_jonas> and it makes you pay life, which won't kill you
23:59:29 <ais523> but misremembered them as working like city of brass
23:59:47 <ais523> (which would be very awkward wording, so I'm not surprised they don't!)
23:59:51 <ais523> `card-by-name city of brass
23:59:51 <HackEgo> City of Brass \ Land \ Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ AN-U, CH-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MMA-R, ME4-R
23:59:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, the shocklands are in ravnica, and they're so popular because they have basic land types, and there are search lands searching for lands with basic land types
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