2017-09-01: 00:01:08 <\oren\> "In the early 1970s a feasibility study was conducted for a project to build a canal from the Mediterranean Sea to the Qattara Depression in the Western Desert of Egypt using nuclear demolition. This project proposed to use 213 devices, with yields of 1 to 1.5 megatons detonated at depths of 100 to 500 meters, to build this canal for the purpose of producing hydroelectric power." 00:06:42 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 00:23:43 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:24:01 water doesn't do a very good job of absorbing pressure, since it's very near incompressible 00:24:27 could a light gas like hydrogen work? 00:25:19 -!- augur has joined. 00:25:21 `? tanebventions 00:25:23 Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex. 00:26:15 `slwd tanebvention//s;sanity;&, the grace period; 00:26:19 tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anyth 00:27:24 `? tanebventions: math 00:27:25 Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms. 00:28:14 Oh dear 00:28:21 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:28:26 it's time for some rearrangements 00:32:02 `? tanebvention 00:32:04 Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving 00:32:18 It is true that I never invent anything involving 00:33:24 Taneb never invents anythimble 00:33:38 `? mushroom 00:33:39 mushroom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:35:17 `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac. 00:35:20 Learned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac. 00:35:58 `` grWp -l ' ' 00:36:00 haskell \ haskell' \ rules of wisdom \ speedy gonzales \ tanebventions: food \ tip 00:36:06 `? haskell 00:36:07 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 00:36:09 oops 00:36:11 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:36:13 `? haskell' 00:36:14 Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell' 00:36:14 `le/rn tanebventions: food//Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac. 00:36:17 Relearned 'tanebventions: food': Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac. 00:38:18 `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //s.cognac, .. 00:38:19 ​/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 31: unknown option to `s' 00:38:39 `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,], ..;s/wee.*rooms, //;s.cognac, .. 00:38:41 tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex. 00:39:08 that's wrong. 00:39:28 oh 00:39:41 `slwd tanebvention//s.aut[^,]*, .. 00:39:43 tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex. 00:40:53 `slwd tanebventions//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods, 00:40:54 Roswbud! 00:41:04 `slwd tanebvention//s,maths,& or tanebventions: foods, 00:41:06 tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 00:43:08 `dowg haskell' 00:43:17 5842:2015-07-17 ` ln wisdom/haskell{,\\\'} 00:43:27 huh 00:43:55 `` ls -l wisdom/haskell\' 00:43:56 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell' 00:44:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:44:04 hmph 00:44:20 `` ls -l wisdom/haskell 00:44:21 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 102 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/haskell 00:45:12 `? marmite 00:45:13 Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth. 00:52:39 `? speedy gonzales 00:52:40 Sp e e d y G o n z a l e s i s t h e f a s t e s t 00:52:52 `? tip 00:52:53 A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese. 00:54:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:55:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:58:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:00:21 #racism 01:02:15 no tips in japan? 01:02:49 purportedly 01:06:59 there's a couple restaurants around here that don't take tips, mostly east asian places 01:07:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:12:51 yeah tips are generally not done in asian cultures 01:13:47 `w 01:13:48 ​costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Taneb sometimes invents them. 01:15:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:23:37 -!- kcyre has joined. 01:23:38 -!- kcyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:33:17 -!- boily has joined. 01:36:41 `5 w 01:36:46 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ ⌨//You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow. 01:36:47 `n 01:36:48 1/1:epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ Э//EH? \ ⌨//You are probably using one right now! \ pun//Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. \ shikhin//shikhin is a Malevolent God, who will promise you stuff tomorrow. 01:38:08 What? Tomorrow, dammit. 01:41:03 `? monomorphism 01:41:05 A monomorphism is just an epimorphism in the opposite category. 01:41:27 So say f is a morphism. 01:41:40 "mono" means "(f .) is injective" 01:41:51 "epi" means "(. f) is injective" 01:42:00 "split mono" means "(. f) is surjective" 01:42:05 "split epi" means "(f .) is surjective" 01:42:26 If f is split x, then it's also x 01:42:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:42:56 And of course if f is mono+split epi, or epi+split mono, then (f .) or (. f) is bijective, and so f is iso 01:43:37 mono morphin' power rangers 01:47:45 -!- imode has joined. 02:29:06 aww the p!=np was wrong like the other 3453452 p!=np proofs 02:29:12 who would have guessed it 02:30:16 sounds like solid evidence that P=NP hth 02:32:03 observing a green apple makes it more likely that a black raven is not NP. 02:33:53 boily, Sainsbury's was out of green apples the other day so therefor a black raven is NP! 02:43:20 grmble the first of every month i use to drain the laptop battery because that's supposedly good for it. 02:43:56 but sometimes i forget about it when i'm doing something else, and come back to discover it has turned off. 02:44:13 * oerjan hopes he found the right settings to get it to hibernate instead 02:45:08 at least my browser remembered the tabs this time, it seems. 02:45:36 vim is particularly annoying because of the way it nags when recovering stuff 02:46:27 vim recovery is so annoying 02:47:02 The standard recovery procedure: vim file; press r; save file with another time; diff two files; delete one of the files and the .swp 02:47:15 Is that what you're supposed to do? 02:47:29 It's so manual. I don't get why there isn't a simple thing to automate it. 02:47:59 no, i just ask it to recover, but it half panics because the recovery file is older than the saved one (probably a bug in file times or something) 02:48:10 and i have to deleted the swp files by hand. 02:48:12 *-ed 02:48:48 Instruction Set where indirect addressing can only be done via self-modifying code: https://github.com/pbl64k/ShenzhenIO-Turing 02:48:48 who would have guessed it <-- scott aaronson hth 02:49:14 Sgeo: tons of instruction sets are like that, especially very old ones and toy ones 02:49:51 o.O 02:51:23 as far as i can tell, the .swp file age must be when it was _created_, regardless of when it was changed. 02:52:13 Sgeo: Neat. 02:53:30 also not all the .swp files are in the same directory. 02:56:12 otoh forced reboots are my trigger for moving to the next tatham puzzle. 02:58:15 oerjan: how old is your laptop? draining batteries is useful for nickel-cadmium batteries but basically all laptops nowadays use lithium batteries, which don't care 02:58:27 hm there were some tabs reopened that i had already closed 02:58:37 ais523: it's from 2013 02:58:53 i guess i can stop doing it, then 02:59:22 I admit to occasionally having done it out of habit before remembering that modern batteries don't care 02:59:38 lithium batteries it's actually better not to fully drain 02:59:40 although i'm not sure if i saw it suggested in the accompanying manual, or just old habit 02:59:41 But you're still not supposed to charge them to full capacity, right? 02:59:52 I guess most people here are young enough to not be aware of the battery draining ritual 02:59:54 not fully charging is also good, but harder 02:59:56 shachaf: um i'm not getting a choice for that... 03:00:18 my laptop's BIOS has settings where you tell it how you use the battery (e.g. in my case, usually on mains power) 03:00:38 and it has built-in rules for charging and discharging the battery in an optimal way based on that 03:00:39 maybe there is some setting. 03:01:12 it _does_ occasionally seem to drain the battery a little, even though i rarely remove the cord 03:05:31 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:07:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BUMPER CHICKEN). 03:30:57 `5 w 03:31:02 1/2:wlcom//Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: . (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.) \ htdh//HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao 03:31:19 n 03:31:21 `n 03:31:21 2/2:and Don Ho. \ ☃//Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ coulor//Coulor is the correct spelling. \ אrjan//אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms. 03:52:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:57:31 -!- ais523 has quit. 04:08:04 -!- augur has joined. 05:01:09 -!- MDude has joined. 05:06:55 "An­other im­por­tant ap­pli­ca­tion of time travel is in com­put­ing. Many newer mi­cro­proces­sors take ad­van­tage of retro­ca­usal con­nec­tions as part of their branch pre­dic­tion and cache prefetch hard­ware, en­abling much higher per­for­mance and clock speeds than be­fore." 06:37:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:44:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:32 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:38:51 -!- augur has joined. 07:43:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:44:22 -!- mroman has joined. 07:59:35 -!- augur has joined. 08:03:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:07:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:16:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:24:49 -!- hkgit03 has joined. 08:38:50 -!- atslash has joined. 08:50:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:54:49 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:58:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:59:18 -!- iovoid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:24:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:37:09 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:10:49 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:36:19 -!- zseri has joined. 11:36:55 shrub? 11:39:23 -!- augur has joined. 11:43:36 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:52:38 -!- boily has joined. 11:54:09 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:11:12 -!- erkin has joined. 13:15:44 <\oren\> On the plus side, my city produces so much sewage that I am able to build a seaport on Shit Creek 13:54:48 -!- augur has joined. 13:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:29:33 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 14:33:36 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:58:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:59:21 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 14:59:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:27:22 -!- hkgit03 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:49:59 -!- mroman has joined. 15:50:24 moo 15:52:11 oom 16:04:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:06:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:13:27 why do cpus use flags 16:13:35 if I have three op instructions 16:13:52 I might as well have blt target_addr, r0, r1 16:14:12 mroman: it's typically because in old CPUs, it's easy to set flags as a side effect without losing any performance 16:14:37 adding more ops to an instruction costs performance because the instruction takes longer to read and decode 16:17:21 is 3 operands bad? 16:17:27 or just different 16:17:34 there are tradeoffs with any instruction length 16:17:52 other things being equal, though, you want the machine code to be as short as possible so that more of it fits in the cache 16:20:15 I dunno anything about modern microcode designs, but in older machines, it's basically free to set a flag since you can hardwire it 16:20:48 so if it's used either extremely frequently or extremely infrequently, it has advantages over making it configurable 16:21:22 even in modern machines, setting the flag is basically free, reading it can be rather more expensive though (because it introduces a dependency) 16:22:10 for jumps in particular, it also lets you compress the jump instructions if they always use the same register to read from 16:25:00 and possibly hardware optimize them too? 16:25:28 in my case jumps are always absolute 16:25:41 and the address always is in a register 16:26:05 oh wait 16:26:09 no there are also relative jumps 16:26:19 which are 12bit one's complement 16:26:32 so you can jump forward/back 2048 16:26:45 times 4 even 16:26:51 because an instruction is 4 bytes 16:26:53 and aligned 16:26:58 alercah: what's your opinion on skip/jump instruction sets? 16:27:04 so you can multiply the relative address by 4 16:27:07 where all conditionals skip one instruction if they succeed, and all jumps are unconditional? 16:27:46 ais523: I've never used one 16:27:59 so you can jump forwards/backwards 2047 instructions 16:28:06 ais523: sounds nice though? 16:28:10 I've used at least one, possibly more 16:28:17 redcode has skips :D 16:28:20 it seems like it'd be good for branch target prediction 16:28:40 why? 16:28:42 also the one I'm thinking of was on a processor with pipeline length 2, so it could implement a skip simply by flushing the pipeline 16:28:49 mroman: because all jumps are unconditional 16:28:57 true 16:29:03 but you still don't know whether the jumps are taken or not 16:29:20 so you still don't know where to prefetch stuff from 16:29:41 mroman: it solves one of the problems with branch prediction 16:29:45 but not the main one 16:29:49 although this makes me wonder whether you could have two pipelines 16:29:55 and one always fetches the thing from the jump 16:29:59 ais523: as for branch prediction, you know what I'd like? 16:30:04 and then you just switch pipeline if the jump is taken 16:30:28 mroman: with long pipelines that doesn't work if there are multiple jumps in succession 16:30:30 let's call it "speculative decoding" 16:30:36 which is common with if/else if chains 16:31:56 speculative execution is a real field of study, though, so there's probably something similar that works 16:32:04 a kind of marking for a conditional jump where the programmer claims the result for the jump will be available early. when the decoder encounters such a jump, it doesn't try to predict whether the jump condition is true or false, instead it just stalls the decoder and hopes the execution unit will be able to supply the input for that condition early enough that it knows for sure whether the branch is taken, and when it knows, that's when it will continue 16:32:50 and since you (the programmer) make that condition available early and not modify it in later statements, there's still statements to execute in the execution pipline when the decoder can continue working 16:33:18 of course this is a bit harder to do in an architecture like x86 that has too few instructions that don't modify the flags 16:33:37 I rather like the "delay slots" technique 16:33:39 (you could do the same for an indirect jump, but that's a less common case) 16:33:47 where all jump instructions have no effect for another X instructions, and then act immediately 16:34:19 it needs a fairly smart compiler but it gets around all the branch instruction issues, and unlike VLIW and friends, the source code is still compact 16:34:43 ais523: yes, but "it needs a fairly smart compiler but" never works in practice 16:34:56 people tried that ten times 16:34:59 it just never works 16:35:04 b_jonas: gcc already has code for implementing this, I think 16:35:08 such CPUs are used in practice 16:35:26 ais523: yeah, it has now for mips twenty years later. 16:35:34 doesn't bode well if you design a new cpu with it 16:35:47 and I don't think the delay slot design even makes much sense with today's cpus 16:35:49 you could just write a gcc and llvm backend at the same time 16:35:54 that made sense for a fixed instruction time schedule 16:36:18 right, it doesn't work so well with the modern parallel pipeline 16:36:26 although it would nonetheless help to reduce branch prediction penalties 16:36:33 even if not zero them 17:06:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:07:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:10:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:13:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:15:21 -!- erkin has joined. 17:27:02 -!- augur has joined. 17:35:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:36:07 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:03:46 I'm designing yet another VM. 18:03:53 mostly... 18:04:02 it's more of an ABI layer for processes 18:04:06 or OSes 18:04:10 kinda 18:04:27 the point is a VM with complete process isolation 18:04:46 so that you can safely run programs in it 18:05:18 mroman: "container"? 18:05:29 it's basically a container 18:05:29 yes 18:05:41 are you planning to use Linux's existing functionality for that, or to write your own? 18:06:19 I'm going to write it OS dependent as a reference implementation. 18:06:23 *OS independent 18:07:26 it's like an OS on top of an OS. 18:08:11 and "selinux" 18:09:32 part of the idea is that you can load dynamic libraries with restricted permissions 18:09:48 meaning that if you use a math library 18:09:53 and invoke sqrt(x) 18:10:03 that sqrt(x) is not running in the context of the current user 18:10:06 as current OS do 18:10:33 if there were to be a security vulnerability in sqrt(x) 18:10:42 you'd be very restricted with what you can do with it 18:11:05 because it would run in a "computation only" context meaning you have absolutely zero I/O available 18:12:04 likewise processes will be started in a restricted environment as well 18:12:08 for example if you have a text editor 18:12:26 which has a root directory of course (containing the binary of itself and stuff) 18:12:41 it will only have permissions to the file opened and that root directory 18:12:57 so if there were an error in the parsing code of that text editor 18:13:05 mroman: so what happens if someone does sqrt(-1) and raises a signal? 18:13:07 that's a form of I/O 18:13:09 the damage would be _very_ restricted. 18:13:15 or does error handling have its own rules? 18:13:44 Is there an esolang where the primary form of output is through timing? 18:13:57 and by signal you mean like linux signals? 18:14:15 no. 18:14:19 mroman: have you seen Fuschia? 18:14:23 computation only can't even call os functions 18:15:10 of course, this has implications on programmers 18:15:19 because you wouldn't design software like 18:15:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:15:31 mroman: what about a hardware exception? 18:15:33 sub parse(string path) end sub 18:15:47 like a divide-by-0 18:15:48 but sub parse(stream path) end sub 18:15:53 and have the I/O in a different component 18:15:59 you'd seperate I/O from non-I/O 18:16:31 alercah: terminates the process. 18:16:50 mroman: that seems like a loophole 18:16:55 why? 18:17:06 because it's an externally-visible side effect 18:17:12 ah 18:17:20 and a malicioius library could crash the process at an inopportune moment 18:17:25 you mean a div-by-zero in another component? 18:17:28 yeah 18:17:32 like I write the sqrt component 18:17:35 you call sqrt 18:17:40 but the less-malicious alternative would involve checked exceptions 18:17:43 I decide that this time, I'm actually going to divide by 0 and crash you instead 18:17:47 and that requires changes to the programming languages 18:17:59 you couldn't just do it on binaries, it'd be part of the ABI 18:18:34 (although come to think of it, ABI violations are another possibility; say the calling convention says that you're supposed to restore r10 to its original value before returning from a function, what happens if the called code doesn't?) 18:18:37 haven't thought too much about that 18:18:45 security wise a div-by-zero isn't too much to worry about 18:18:56 so I haven't thought about that aspect yet 18:19:04 ais523: yeah, or any other sort of illegal instruction 18:19:06 worst case the process dies 18:19:09 mroman: I think you would like fuschia 18:19:35 what's that? 18:19:40 "Did you mean: fuchsia" 18:19:41 "nope. probably not" 18:20:13 do you have a link? 18:20:15 seems hard to google 18:20:18 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia 18:20:21 because google likes fuchsia more 18:20:56 didn't xkcd find that "fuchsia" is the most frequently misspelled colour name? 18:21:11 yes because the spelling is dumb 18:21:31 it's not 18:21:36 it's pronounced fuchsia 18:21:37 so 18:21:43 how can you misspell that? 18:21:50 imo "colour" is the most frequently misspelled color name 18:21:56 it's written as it's spelled 18:22:21 the UK pronunciation is more like "fyew-sha" 18:22:29 ^ that's how I pronounce it as well 18:22:35 the ch before s makes me want to do a german/irish ch 18:22:54 alercah: was that a reply to my comment? if so, how did you type it that fast? 18:22:58 I believe that's the US pronunciation too. 18:23:17 ais523: I had 6 seconds! 18:23:31 German is best language ever anyway 18:23:33 Hat man mir gesagt. 18:23:34 and I usually type between 80-100 WPM 18:23:36 How you do pronounce "fuchsia" so it makes *sense*? 18:23:45 8 seconds at my end 18:23:51 "Fuck Sia"? 18:23:54 pikhq: I dunno. I can't even pronounce it in Irish because the vowels are wrong 18:23:57 this is pretty worrying, I might have passed out momentarily or something 18:24:05 ais523: when did you sleep? 18:24:11 this morning 18:24:24 so not sleep deprivation probably 18:24:55 I was sent to hospital a few months ago because I fainted for no apparent reason 18:25:05 but they couldn't figure out the cause, and it hasn't happened again 18:25:11 ohh 18:25:14 ouch :( 18:25:28 didn't happen this time, though; there are a few tests you can perform to figure out if you just fainted 18:25:31 so maybe it's unrelated 18:25:49 pikhq: fʊχsɪa 18:25:50 probably 18:25:53 not an IPA expert 18:28:02 Ah, so "fuck sia" indeed. :P 18:29:02 (for anyone wondering: excessive sweat, especially from the forehead; skin and especially lips are white; low blood pressure, although that's hard to self-assess) 18:29:06 <\oren\> futSsya 18:45:42 welcome to the club 18:45:51 of undiagnosably ill people 18:47:48 80WPM? 18:47:54 That's kinda low. 18:47:58 100WPM is ok 18:49:09 mroman: my limiting factor is usually deciding what to write, not the actual typing 18:49:40 Also I use a keyboard that I value for its comfort, although it's not the fastest tool 18:49:58 and by ok I mean good 18:50:03 on a bad day I type 100WPM 18:50:07 on a good day about 120 18:50:13 on a very good day I'll hit 120 18:50:27 I don't IRC as much as I used to and that's how I learned to type quickly 18:50:32 programming has much lower WPM demands 18:51:12 very few people can sustain 120WPM for more than 2 minutes 18:51:49 needs a really good ergonomic setup 18:51:52 and shorter nails 18:52:10 alercah: I've been sick since uhm. 18:52:16 2 years 18:52:17 or something 18:52:22 oof :( 18:52:36 nobody knows why 18:52:53 mroman: I've been in the club of undiagnosably ill people for ages 18:53:15 only measurable thing is elevated transaminasis. 18:53:26 I have some kind of mucus-related or salivary problem that I've seen several doctors about; none could figure it out, but through numerous experiments I discovered that it could be managed simply by drinking water frequently 18:53:30 but not elevated enough to indicate anything in particular. 18:53:38 salivary problem? 18:53:39 not enough? 18:54:02 as in xerostomia? 18:54:21 mroman: it causes excess mucus production whenever I rehydrate 18:54:41 which has knock-on effects of its own 18:54:57 but the easy way to prevent it causing trouble is just never dehydrating so that I never have to rehydrate 18:55:23 -!- imode has joined. 18:55:53 weord 18:55:58 *weird 18:56:25 . o O ( "weord" is a weird word. ) 18:56:29 my body temperature is too high 18:56:32 and tired all the time 18:56:43 sometimes deliriously tired at 4pm 18:57:14 it's gotten weirder for the last two weeks 18:57:21 but I can't go to the doctor anymore 18:58:18 I'd better go home, anyway 18:58:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:58:34 I'll be online at some point later but possibly not today, maybe not even for a few days 18:59:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 18:59:00 ais523: will you be reachable by email> 18:59:04 ah damn 19:01:37 <\oren\> I wounder what the actual effect would be of having a container ship sail on a river of pure untreated sewage and chemical waste 19:02:32 <\oren\> in cities:skylines, the main effect is that business on the shores of Shit Creek is booming 19:03:49 the engines could be stirring up trouble, quite literally. 19:07:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:11:21 <\oren\> "Cause of accident: hull dissolved in sewage" 19:18:14 Hello 19:26:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:27:13 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 19:29:30 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:33:40 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:41:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:42:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:45:56 olleho 19:46:28 -!- erkin has joined. 19:52:42 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:56:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:00:38 You can make the calculation of leap year needing only one division operation, such as the MMIX code: DIV $0,$0,100; GET $1,rR; CSZ $1,$1,$0; AND $1,$1,3; now if $1=0 then it is a leap year, otherwise it is not a leap year. (These instructions are 63 oops in MMIX.) 20:03:01 CSZ? 20:03:18 $1? 20:04:20 The $0 and $1 are registers, while CSZ X,Y,Z means to set X to Z if Y is zero. 20:04:45 and GET? 20:04:50 rR? 20:05:22 Reads the special register rR into $1, where rR is the remainder register. 20:05:55 ah I see. 20:06:43 doesn't x86 div put the remainder somewhere? 20:06:45 or was that IDIV 20:06:50 or was IDIV for signed numbers 20:07:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:07:27 I don't know what x86 does 20:07:51 -!- erkin has joined. 20:09:09 If you know, you can try to figure out the way for x86 (or even for 8088) 20:10:51 Both DIV and IDIV do the same -- they divide a double-wide number (in ax, dx:ax, edx:eax or rdx:rax) by a regular-sized number (the operand), and put the regular-sized quotient in al/ax/eax/rax and the remainder in ah/dx/edx/rdx. 20:19:10 <\oren\> what is a good refernece for learning to use sqlite better? 20:20:04 Probably the SQLite documentation. 20:23:46 david_werecat.antigen: points 13.21, score 35.52, rank 5/47 (+1) 20:23:50 why are there DIV and IDIV? what's the difference between them? 20:24:13 idiv treats numbers as signed 20:24:21 -!- Lowlight has joined. 20:24:45 -!- Lowlight has left. 20:34:07 zseri: add and sub works for both unsigned and signed numbers (two's complement) 20:34:10 but mul div doesn't. 20:34:12 so there's imul and idiv. 20:38:50 (there's also an imul r, r/m variant that works with two values of the same size, updating the first with the result; there is no mul variant for that because it would produce the same results) 20:40:55 oh and I forgot the slightly crazy imul r, r/m, imm variant... which assigns to the first operant the second operant multiplied with the immediate. 20:41:32 does x86_64 still have all those? 20:42:19 apparently so 20:43:56 With the immediate restricted to 32 bits when using 64 bit operands. Which is fine; afaiui it's really designed for indexing into arrays with large element sizes. 20:46:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:48:05 -!- augur has joined. 20:49:10 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:50:32 -!- erkin has joined. 20:52:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:05:53 <\oren\> I am considering the idea of a massivley multiplayer game where game-logic is entirely implemented as constraints and stored procedures 21:06:07 I don't think massively multiplayer and that design go together 21:25:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:26:36 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:40:29 so... 21:40:38 you want a mmo in sql 21:41:05 Massively multiplayer online database 21:41:33 and 21:41:35 using sqlite 21:41:37 SQLite has no stored procedures, although you can use triggers inatead. 21:41:39 there's one file on a smb share 21:41:43 and players connect to the share 21:42:26 Triggers in SQLite can't have statements that have WITH at start, although WITH is allowed in subqueries and so on. 21:43:02 \oren\: If you do that 21:43:06 I'll create distributed brainfuck 21:43:46 fuck 21:43:48 I'll create it even if you don't. 21:43:52 I don't have anything to do anyway 21:45:44 but let me do my VM stuff first. 21:46:36 I got six months left 21:46:41 so I gotta do something useful in that time 21:46:47 and distributed brainfuck isn't that useful. 21:51:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:53:46 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: gotta go). 21:54:11 -!- augur has joined. 21:56:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:56:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:24:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:41:43 -!- moony has joined. 22:43:05 -!- imode has joined. 22:44:56 -!- moony has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:46:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:52:50 Did anyone make a hardware implementation of MIX (including punch cards and magnetic tapes and everything else like that too)? 22:56:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:58:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:59:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 23:02:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:03:12 bye 23:07:54 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:10:58 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:17:21 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:23:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:36:24 -!- moony has joined. 23:43:32 -!- iovoid has joined. 23:43:32 -!- iovoid has quit (Changing host). 23:43:32 -!- iovoid has joined. 23:53:31 I made this MIX program to tell you if a year is a leap year and also what day of the week is January 1: http://sprunge.us/TdAc 23:55:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:56:14 It expects entering a Gregorian AD year number on the typewriter and then will write the result also on the typewriter. 23:56:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:57:09 Do you like this? 2017-09-02: 00:04:45 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:16:27 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:23:32 Is this method "STA *+1(0:2)" and stuff like that common in MIX programs? 00:52:14 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 01:08:44 "Do I dare put a character named "Mallock" in a story about memory" 01:09:08 I don't care 01:12:38 <\oren\> I had really strong soju at work today! 01:13:02 <\oren\> time to play cities: skylines! 01:24:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:27:40 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:41:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:01:40 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:06:40 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:08:05 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:25:35 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:26:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:41:21 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:01:06 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:04:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 03:07:35 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Behrooz Binary * New user account 03:18:05 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:51:23 -!- xkapastel has joined. 04:00:04 <\oren\> 100000 residents! 04:00:07 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/wbaOWxK 04:01:26 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/e6QHSLr 04:16:47 I found another bug in MIXPC that LDiN and LDXN are not work. I found the mistake so that I can fix it. 04:23:16 [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52980&oldid=52977 * Zzo38 * (+357) +[[MIX (Knuth)]] 04:47:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:14:41 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:19:21 -!- MDude has joined. 05:22:10 `learn The password of the month is chanterelles 05:22:12 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is chanterelles 05:25:46 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:39:35 <\oren\> What should I call the next district after "Extra Orenburg"? 05:39:53 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/yM8y8dB 05:43:44 \oren\: Orenchugladitsnotorenburg 05:46:17 also, ankh-morpork for wherever that sewage continues to 06:16:50 orenville 06:21:09 orengrad 06:22:42 santoreno 07:50:55 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:04:45 -!- trn has quit (Excess Flood). 08:04:58 -!- trn has joined. 08:07:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:23:11 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:25:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:49:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:56:18 -!- mroman has joined. 08:56:32 morning 08:56:56 Hi mroman 08:57:07 How's mrome? 08:58:04 mrome what? 08:59:38 an 08:59:40 morn 09:09:27 blubb 09:29:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:40:54 [wiki] [[Skastic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52981&oldid=52932 * Mypalmike * (+23) 09:42:36 [wiki] [[Skastic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52982&oldid=52981 * Mypalmike * (+35) 09:59:09 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:13:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:25:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:37:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:47:19 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:47:40 -!- zseri has joined. 11:04:44 -!- augur has joined. 11:09:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:12:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:44:33 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52983 * Zseri * (+4336) Created page with "Pronounced ''toons-whack'', '''TEWNLSWAC''' is an idea for a programming language by [[User:Zseri]]. It's initially derived from [[TEWELSWAC]], but uses a very different synta..." 11:45:45 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52984&oldid=52983 * Zseri * (-1) /* External Resources */ 11:49:57 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52985&oldid=52984 * Zseri * (+112) add labels 11:55:42 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52986&oldid=52954 * Zseri * (+16) +TEWNLSWAC 11:56:11 I finally added my own esolang to the wiki 11:57:03 The esolang page is still not complete, but only the section about object orientation is missing. 12:13:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:13:39 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52987&oldid=52985 * Zseri * (+1285) +Object Orientied Programming 12:13:47 ok ,done 12:40:20 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52988&oldid=52987 * Zseri * (-18) ''a'' command: parentheses no longer needed (keep up to date with interpreter) 12:41:31 [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52989&oldid=52304 * Zseri * (+32) +Own languages 12:45:56 -!- augur has joined. 12:47:25 -!- mroman has joined. 12:47:42 Taneb: I'm holding lectures last week and next week. 12:47:53 I'm gonna do my lectures 12:47:59 and then I'm gonna go. 12:50:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:52:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:52:19 -!- augur has joined. 12:52:21 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52990&oldid=52988 * Zseri * (+645) +VM memory model 12:56:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:59:05 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:41 -!- augur has joined. 13:05:13 -!- [io] has joined. 13:05:13 -!- [io] has quit (Changing host). 13:05:13 -!- [io] has joined. 13:07:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:18:24 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: moo). 13:22:29 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52991&oldid=52990 * Zseri * (-79) /* 99 bottles of beer */ 13:23:14 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52992&oldid=52991 * Zseri * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ fix indent 13:34:23 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52993&oldid=52992 * Zseri * (+0) /* External Resources */ update link 13:35:47 [wiki] [[TEWELSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52994&oldid=52231 * Zseri * (+15) /* External Resources */ update link 13:36:51 Aw. With mismatching monitor sizes, X doesn't let me move the cursor to the other screen if it would go to the invisible area. (I was hoping that part of the border would just clamp to the bottom of the other screen.) 13:43:22 -!- erkin has joined. 13:53:27 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52995&oldid=52993 * Zseri * (+178) +Unary Operators 14:25:26 -!- moony has joined. 14:48:35 -!- moony has changed nick to moonheart08. 14:49:46 -!- moonheart08 has changed nick to moony_tablet. 14:49:58 -!- moony_tablet has changed nick to VERSION. 14:52:47 -!- VERSION has changed nick to moony. 15:36:54 Is there some configuration of that? 15:37:20 <* Taneb> is in Oxford now 15:47:39 -!- ATMunn has joined. 15:51:55 -!- mroman has joined. 15:52:19 re 15:56:09 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:56:47 wb 16:07:23 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stefan-hering * New user account 16:11:56 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52996&oldid=52979 * Stefan-hering * (+253) 16:19:25 here comes a new bf derivative :D 16:19:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:19:48 to be fair.. Härdfish is also kinda a bf derivative 16:34:40 what's new in that derivative 16:36:00 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 16:37:15 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52997&oldid=52995 * Zseri * (+21) inspired 16:37:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:42:00 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 16:44:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 16:44:52 zzo38: START isn't even an operation or pseudo-op, and END needs an argument. what's that about? 16:45:32 wob_jonas: It isn't MIXAL it is a bit different. 16:45:53 zzo38: and what's the point of those extra IN statements? 16:46:31 Which ones you mean? 16:46:52 under the comment "It is a leap year" 16:47:24 To read the card " IS NOT A LEAP YEAR" and skip it, so that the next card it reads will be " IS A LEAP YEAR" 16:48:51 Does that make sense now? 16:50:30 (The program does work; I have tested it. I can provide the compiled deck too if you wanted it, whether base 100, base 64, or independent.) 16:52:00 zzo38: ah I see. fancy human-readable output read from the localization data at the end of the program to attract the young who hasn't been pulled into computer programming yet. that's a good idea, I support it 16:52:18 <\oren\> I was like, who is this "king karl" who declared war on me? 16:52:23 <\oren\> and then I was like, OH SHIT 16:54:14 \oren\: you got king Carl 14 Gustaf of Sweden to declare a war on you? What did you do? 16:55:28 Is this way of copying rA and rX into index registers common in MIX programming? 16:56:25 zzo38: I dunno 16:57:07 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no, Charlemagne 16:57:20 <\oren\> even worse for me 16:57:47 \oren\: whoa. isn't he already dead? did a regent declare war in his name? 16:59:13 zzo38: also, what's with the PUNCH header? doesn't the assembler just stop reading after one more card after END so you just put extra cards readable by the program directly after them without any formatting? 16:59:29 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:59:31 hmm no wait, it can't work that way 16:59:37 because there's a loader involved 16:59:47 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I'm in 769 AD 17:00:02 \oren\: whoa.... is that timezone shenanigans? 17:00:09 that can't raise someone from death 17:00:10 <\oren\> I'm playing as the Ummayad Sultan in CKII 17:00:12 real tiem travel? 17:00:14 The MIXPC assembler does not stop reading after END; you can add further pseudo-ops there (specifically, ORG, EQU, PUNCH, and DECK are allowed, as well as comments). 17:00:16 ah 17:00:45 zzo38: how does it know when to stop reading then? 17:00:51 -!- mroman has joined. 17:01:17 zseri: it's funnier than hardfuck 17:01:18 wob_jonas: By EOF. This assembler is not itself written in MIX, so it can be done (it is also a two pass assembler). 17:01:40 shouldn't it stop reading one card after END, and perhaps the operator just removes the rest of cards and puts them after the loader card stack as routine? 17:01:57 or you just submit the data as a separate stack 17:02:30 although a single stack might simplify things if the punchers are heavily underpaid unqualified workers 17:02:30 wob_jonas: In a hardware implementation you may very well do that if you are using MIXAL written in MIX itself with the source program on cards. 17:02:59 it doesn't need to be written in MIX itself. it could be any other computer driving a punch card reader 17:03:01 (Although you probably would combine the decks, as there doesn't seem a real reason to submit it as an extra stack if it is static data that is part of the program.) 17:03:17 Well, yes, that too 17:04:10 or you could run the program on an expensive MIX machine with a fast cpu and lots of extra devices, and the assembler on a cheap almost-MIX machine. 17:04:36 One that's slow and only has 4000 RAM and a punch card reader and a puncher and nothing else. 17:05:25 zzo38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrksBdWcZgQ 17:05:33 you seem like a guy who might be intersted in that talk 17:06:18 Yes, you can do that, although the MIXPC assembler is not designed to read the program from cards; it even uses characters that are not in the MIX character set (such as quotation marks), and the DECK pseudo-op reads an external file (it is meant for use with externally prepared data, that may have output using a MIX program, and needs a filename) 17:06:45 zzo38: ok 17:07:15 also, the assembly program could be entered through a terminal directly without punching 17:08:43 The GNU MIX assembler also uses quotation marks though 17:09:29 maybe the bunny ears are on the same code as some other character, like the at sign 17:10:15 If you actually do want MIXAL, you could provide an implementation in MIX that is already compiled and you will be able to run it. 17:19:05 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:24:39 (You could also use another standalone implementation that produces an executable deck; the GNU MIX assembler does not, although it can use MIXAL input (the quotation marks are optional).) 17:24:56 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 17:27:37 Has anyone made a hardware MIX implementation (with punch cards and that stuff) yet? 17:28:50 dunno. I haven't seen one in http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/ringhome.html at least. 17:32:29 there surely at least exists an FFPGA implementation? 17:32:34 `w 17:32:36 ​ᛁᚿ//ᛁᚿ ᛋᚿᛅᚠᚠᛚᛚᛋ ᛁᚮᚴᚢᛚᛁᛋ ᚴᛦᛆᛏᛅᛦᛅᛘ ᚴᛅᛘ ᚦᛅᛚᛁᛒᛆᛏ ᚢᛘᛒᛦᛆ ᛋᚴᛆᛦᛏᛆᛦᛁᛋ ᛁᚢᛚᛁᛁ ᛁᚿᛏᛦᛆ ᚴᛆᛚᛅᚿᚦᛆᛋ ᚦᛅᛋᚴᛅᚿᚦᛅ, ᛆᚢᚦᛆᛋ ᚢᛁᛆᛏᚮᛦ, ᛏᛅ ᛏᛅᛦᛦᛅᛋᛏᛦᛅ ᚴᛅᚿᛏᛦᚢᛘ ᛆᛏ 17:33:17 mroman: dunno, I'm a software guy, I don't usually see what that would win over a pure software emu on a conventional computer, in cases like this where you don't lose much performance by such an emulation 17:34:04 Someone have mention to me to try to make it in Verilog myself, but I do not have any computer punch cards. 17:34:57 but I do understand there are people who prefer stuff encoded in wires they solder with their own hand 17:35:27 zzo38: a terminal with tape then? you need only one or the other 17:36:09 plus a custom adapter card between the card reader/punch or the terminal and the computer, which is quite complicated 17:36:52 the punch card reader or terminal or disk drive has all the mechanical parts, but the controller used to have all the complicated electronics, back before cheap ICs. 17:37:13 that's why they used to have two hard disks or two floppy disks on one controller in such a way that it can control only one at a time 17:37:22 Yes you could, although an implementation that supports all of the I/O of MIX would be something to see, by anyone who is interested in working with these old computer, I suppose. 17:37:49 the keyboard and mouse, funnily, have most of the electronics in them though. I don't understand why. 17:38:38 for the keyboard it sort of makes sense, because you have to reduce the hundred keys to just a few wires somewhere, but why in the mouse? 17:39:54 I don't know? 17:40:58 although keyboards back then lasted way more than these cheap junk people buy these days, so it wasn't like you're throwing away an expensive keyboard controller when the keyboard wears off after two years 17:41:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:41:31 Yes, I like the old IBM Model F keyboard, which however they do not seem to make anymore 17:43:19 (not that the stereotypical two-finger hunt and peck 20 wpm medical assistant who's paid for one job, to type what the doctor dictates, would deserve a real keyboard, but still, they buy some of that junk at my workplace... oh I SEE! we have to give something to the stupid interns! yes, it all makes sense now.) 17:44:01 zzo38: sure, I have a real keyboard for home now. and I have a Genius mouse that works really well and lasts quite long. 17:44:50 and I have not too expensive but not too bad either keyboard and mouse and monitor at work now, after a few iterations of asking for better equipment 17:45:22 the system of giving junk to people at first and giving them real stuff only when they complain is actually a reasonable cost-saving measure 17:45:32 because different people care about different things 17:46:36 so you give the guy who needs a comfy chair a comfy chair, and give the guy who needs a good keyboard a good keyboard, and the guy who wants sunshades on the window sunshades, it's way cheaper than preemptively putting comfy chairs and good keyboards at every workstation and sunshades on every window 17:46:44 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:47:08 this works even in non-tech stuff like the coffee maker and coffee and milk they buy 17:47:50 you wouldn't believe how some people will work with monitors with a bright pixel, or keyboards with one key not working at all, until you see it 17:48:02 people are so different you never know what to expect 17:48:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:48:40 some of my co-workers actually started to work in an open space, as in rooms aren't completely separated by walls 17:48:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:50:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:54:40 `? aluminum 17:54:41 aluminum? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:54:43 `? aluminium 17:54:44 aluminium? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:54:47 `? alminum 17:54:48 alminum? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:54:52 `? alumni 17:54:53 alumni? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:55:09 `? aluminiumminimumimmun 17:55:11 aluminiumminimumimmun? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:55:14 -!- augur has joined. 17:56:01 `learn Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges. 17:56:03 Learned 'alumni': Alumni is a compromise spelling suggested to solve the aluminum vs aluminium debate that never really caught on, except in a few big colleges. 17:57:31 Here in the Germanies „Alumni“ means „Absolvents“ 17:58:42 as in, it absorbs oxygen on the surface and mercury? 17:59:18 A hardware MIX implementation can be made that doesn't necessarily have punch cards and typewriter and so on, but does have the ability to connect to all of that equipment, and then you can also substitute other equipment such as a VDU instead of a typewriter if you want to, with the same interface for connection. 17:59:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:03:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:43 sure, if it's already ASCII over a serial lines with given settings, then video terminal and print terminal are equivalent 18:05:12 but the driver hardware is still nontrivial 18:05:34 and you need some input/output device, either cards or terminal with tape, to use the computer 18:07:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:07:51 and presumably you won't just invent a completely different I/O device once you go through the trouble of making a hardware MIX specifically instead of some other computer 18:08:25 I have better modern computers and don't have a use for MIX though 18:08:37 Yes of course you do need some I/O devices, and probably you are correct you won't just invent a new kind 18:08:39 so I don't care much even about an emulator 18:11:44 `? protoss 18:11:45 protoss? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:11:46 `? zerg 18:11:47 We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it. 18:11:48 `? terran 18:11:49 terran? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:12:56 I can just use software implementations and so don't need a hardware implementation either, although still it can be interesting to see for similar reasons that EDSAC is rebuilt and the other old-style computers that some people like to make. 18:13:33 If I had punch cards then a hardware implementation would be useful to me of course, since I would use that to write a program to read the cards. 18:15:05 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:35 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52998&oldid=52997 * Zseri * (+79) global/local vars 18:26:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:31:45 -!- imode has joined. 18:50:11 -!- [io] has changed nick to iovoid. 18:55:22 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:01:13 `? /ꙩ\ 19:01:14 ​/ꙩ\? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:01:17 `? illuminati 19:01:18 illuminati? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:01:25 `? sauron 19:01:26 Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. 19:02:28 `? learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ . 19:02:29 learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ .? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:02:38 `learn Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ . 19:02:41 Relearned 'sauron': Sauron is the eponymous protagonist of the Lord of the Rings series. He serves primarily as narrator and the main driver of the plot. His heroic exploits include the resurrection of the Kings of Men and the conquest of the racists of Gondor. He now leads the Illuminati from his pyramid fort /ꙩ\ . 19:08:30 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:12:29 -!- mroman has joined. 19:12:35 moo 19:13:49 mrooman? 19:27:46 I thought another possible extension into MIX can be a card sorter unit; IOC (16) will control it, where the address field tells it which area to put the most recently read card into. It is an error to use it on a card that has already been sorted. (Maybe there might be a better way though) 19:28:47 * int-e idly wonders whether he has any chance of recognizing Taneb if he should run into him some time next week. 19:29:04 whoa whoa whoa, y'all're at ICFP? 19:29:41 I'll sneak into ICFP a bit but I'm there for FSCD and an associated workshop. 19:29:58 (no sneakiness required, this is officially permitted) 19:30:16 Family Support for Children with Disabilities? 19:30:23 I wonder why that's colocated with ICFP 19:30:27 :-P 19:30:50 http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/conferences/fscd2017/ 19:31:19 int-e: he's an inventor, so maybe look a professor in his fifties with grey hair, bushy mustache, thick-framed glasses, and so forgetful he wears non-matching socks? 19:31:49 unless he's a non-stereotypical inventor 19:32:15 it's too bad I forgot the secret #esoteric handshake ;-) 19:32:20 `? tanebventions 19:32:22 Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the grace period, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 19:34:49 (And if you look at the ICFP full program you'll find FSCD listed as a separate track, which is a bit weird, but probably good for the visibility of FSCD.) 19:35:09 int-e, I think you have more of a chance of recognizing me than I have what you 19:36:38 On that list of home-built computers I found the "Qibec" computer, which seems to be the same as the TOGA computer described in esolang wiki. 19:37:14 int-e, you're looking for a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses 19:37:25 also, it's a mathematics conference 19:37:31 `? tanebventions: maths 19:37:32 Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms. 19:37:44 and conferences have conference food, which is usually worse than 19:37:49 `? tanebventions: foods 19:37:50 Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, and cognac. 19:38:40 conference food varies wildly 19:38:53 `? tanebventions: biology 19:38:54 tanebventions: biology? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:39:01 `? tanebventions: chemistry 19:39:03 tanebventions: chemistry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:39:07 `? tanebventions: economycs 19:39:09 tanebventions: economycs? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:39:10 `? tanebventions: economics 19:39:11 tanebventions: economics? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:39:13 `? tanebventions: military 19:39:14 tanebventions: military? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:39:19 oh right, those ones are classified 19:39:28 the military inventions that is 19:39:42 but only for ten years, after that they'll be hopelessly obsolete 19:39:52 unlike the maths inventions, which live forever 19:40:16 shouldn't Curry's paradox be in the foods category? 19:40:18 Like naive set theory. 19:41:57 "a tall, skinny, white student volunteer with fluffy brown hair and thick eyebrows, possibly wearing glasses" oh great. now you've described like half of the population of the conference 19:41:57 Also conjectures are often rather shortlived (though most of those never become famous). 19:42:28 * int-e would be banking on the IRC name being accurate. 19:42:37 :-P 19:43:34 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: brb). 19:44:45 -!- erkin has joined. 19:45:42 That's because there's a big market for conjectures, so most have to be made by unqualified people. Only very few mathematicians have mastered the art of making really good conjectures, ones that spawn an entire branch of research after their death. These include Fermat, Hilbert, Erdős, and a few more. 19:46:21 so we agree that not all math inventions live forever? 19:46:34 Now Gil Kalai too I think. 19:46:42 int-e: yeah 19:47:01 but they have way more chance of living forever than military inventions 19:47:04 I came up with the P=1 conjecture 19:47:07 nobody disproved it yet. 19:47:23 int-e, my IRC name is accurate 19:47:25 the only way those can live forever is if they manage to destroy civilization. 19:47:34 Taneb: huh? 19:47:51 Taneb: do you mean it's the same name as shown on your conference badge name tag? 19:49:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:51:35 wob_jonas, name as distinct from nick 19:51:58 Taneb: yes, I see it, I was just not sure what "accurate" meant 19:52:12 I thought it would describe some other easily observable attribute 19:52:18 -!- ATMunn has joined. 19:53:24 wob_jonas, I presume int-e could shout my name out and I'd be like "shit that's me" 19:53:38 But you have so many names. 19:54:39 Yes, any of them will do 19:55:19 van doom 19:56:13 but you can recognize int-e too, from how he isn't swedish 19:56:28 `? int-e 19:56:30 int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft. 19:56:51 are you sure int-e isn't into swedes 19:59:42 jojo 19:59:56 labered ir nur 20:00:47 `? rutabaga 20:00:48 rutabaga? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:01:17 Looks like there's a mini-TAS-block in the Games Done Quick special, starting in a bit. 20:02:21 . o O ( Oh, this will be my horrible pun for the day: We have reduced the problem to a simple matter of badge processing. ) 20:02:49 schrecklich indeed. 20:03:13 -!- Remavas has joined. 20:04:14 `? satsuma 20:04:15 satsuma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:05:37 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:14:28 `? turing machine 20:14:29 turing machine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:14:33 `? turing 20:14:34 Turing is what you are doing when you Tur. 20:14:39 :D 20:14:47 `? tur 20:14:48 To tur is not to flas. 20:14:54 `? flas 20:14:55 flas? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:14:59 :/ 20:16:50 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 20:18:18 `? flass 20:18:19 flass? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:20:19 hm. 20:20:34 how do you learn stuff with spaces? 20:20:54 slashlearn 20:21:04 `? learn 20:21:05 ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] [s][punctuation] [...] 20:21:08 `? le/rn 20:21:09 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. 20:21:12 `? le//rn 20:21:13 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. 20:21:25 `? slashlearn 20:21:25 `ls /bin/learn 20:21:26 slashlearn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:21:26 ls: cannot access /bin/learn: No such file or directory 20:21:32 `ls ./bin 20:21:33 ​` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \ 20:21:38 `ls ./bin/learn 20:21:40 ​./bin/learn 20:21:46 `cat ./bin/learn 20:21:47 ​#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$1" >"$(echo-p "wisdom/$topic")" \ echo "$verb '$topic': $1" 20:21:59 `ls ./bin/le* 20:22:00 ls: cannot access ./bin/le*: No such file or directory 20:22:05 ``ls ./bin/le* 20:22:06 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found 20:22:11 `run ls ./bin/le* 20:22:12 ​./bin/leann \ ./bin/learn \ ./bin/learn_append \ ./bin/learn_append2 \ ./bin/len \ ./bin/len.pl 20:22:22 `run ls ./bin/slash* 20:22:23 ​./bin/slashes \ ./bin/slashlearn 20:22:28 `cat ./bin/slashlearn 20:22:29 sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `le/[/]rn //' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed 's.^[ ].&.')" 20:22:29 mroman: ls le 20:22:36 or ls bin/le 20:22:48 `slashlearn turing machine//is a machine that turs. 20:22:48 `ls bin/le 20:22:50 Learned 'turing machine': is a machine that turs. 20:22:52 ls: cannot access bin/le: No such file or directory 20:23:01 `ls le 20:23:01 rm \ rn \ rn_append 20:23:05 `? turing complete 20:23:07 You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount. 20:23:30 `? turing test 20:23:32 turing test? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:23:55 `turing machine 20:23:56 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: turing: not found 20:24:00 `? turing machine 20:24:01 is a machine that turs. 20:24:03 `slwd turingmachine//s=^=A Turing machine = 20:24:04 Roswbud! 20:24:06 hmpf 20:24:13 `slashlearn turing machine//A turing machine is a machine that turs. 20:24:16 Relearned 'turing machine': A turing machine is a machine that turs. 20:24:34 oh I missed the space 20:24:45 `slashlearn turing test//A turing test tests by what amount you can tur. 20:24:45 hehe' 20:24:47 Learned 'turing test': A turing test tests by what amount you can tur. 20:24:49 Not a machine that tures? 20:24:49 @slap hackego 20:24:50 * lambdabot will count to five... 20:24:53 ok 20:24:55 and then? 20:25:05 `? enigma 20:25:05 @slap hackego 20:25:05 * lambdabot pushes hackego from his chair 20:25:06 enigma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:25:15 @slap slap 20:25:15 * lambdabot pulls slap through the Evil Mangler 20:25:35 . o O ( There's no turing back now. The pun will be with us forever. ) 20:25:43 `slahlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all 20:25:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slahlearn: not found 20:25:50 damn' 20:25:56 `slashlearn enigma://Eine machine that encrypten all 20:25:56 Maschine 20:25:58 Learned 'enigma:': Eine machine that encrypten all 20:26:01 I know 20:26:03 I know german 20:26:05 or Maschiene 20:26:08 if you want to be extra correct. 20:26:09 This is fake german :D 20:26:15 that's against the rules 20:26:21 hm 20:26:24 `? rules of wosdom 20:26:25 rules of wosdom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:26:27 mroman: how is that extra correct? 20:26:28 `? rules of wisdom 20:26:28 what? fake german? 20:26:29 unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation 20:26:37 `? wisdom 20:26:39 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 20:27:30 `? enigma 20:27:31 enigma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:27:32 `slashlearn enigma:// 20:27:34 Relearned 'enigma:': 20:27:43 `? enigma: 20:27:44 No output. 20:27:52 well, it's cleared now :D 20:28:01 hm 20:28:03 . o O ( Almost forgotten these days, the Enigma pioneered the "rotor" principle that is the foundation of the famous rot13 cipher. ) 20:28:49 why is there a 'learn' and a 'slashlearn' command? 20:29:00 `? slashlearn 20:29:01 slashlearn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:29:08 `? le/rn 20:29:09 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. 20:29:34 `` ls -la bin/le/rn 20:29:36 ls: cannot access bin/le/rn: No such file or directory 20:29:42 `` ls -la le/rn 20:29:43 lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Oct 28 2016 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn 20:29:47 `? turing machine 20:29:48 A turing machine is a machine that turs. 20:29:55 zseri: to create more wisdom 20:30:33 and in the spirit of eso, le/rn is magically two commands 20:31:10 which ones? 20:32:05 not anymore, le//rn is no longer any different from le/rn 20:32:07 hm, I now lookup bitbucket / GregorR / hackbot 20:32:41 the whole slashslash family of commands got slashed 20:33:14 hmm, will I need sun screen for oxford :P 20:33:23 WHAT?\ 20:33:23 (the weather forecast says no) 20:33:38 how will I slashlearn then? 20:34:09 hmm, that was inaccurate 20:34:15 @metar KOAK 20:34:15 KOAK 021853Z 25004KT 6SM HZ CLR 29/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP096 T02940111 20:34:26 It wasas 39° here yesterday. 20:34:29 Absurd. 20:34:39 the slashslash family slashed the slash family and the "slash" of its own name that became superfluous. 20:34:48 @metar lowi 20:34:49 LOWI 021920Z VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW007 SCT015 BKN045 10/09 Q1018 NOSIG 20:35:00 been raining for days 20:35:13 2 commands, hm, make key lowercase, save the entry and output it again 20:35:59 what was the (gone) different? 20:36:16 s/different/difference/ 20:36:19 the treatment of slashes 20:36:56 -!- augur has joined. 20:37:19 `? shaventions 20:37:20 Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet. 20:37:35 Didn't shaventions include slashlearn? 20:37:45 `doat bin/slashlearn 20:37:54 5010:2014-10-02 ` echo $\'#!/bin/bash\\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1)\\n[ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1\\nvalue=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-)\\necho "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned \xc2\xab$topic\xc2\xbb"\' > bin/slashlearn \ 5011:2014-10-02 ` chmod +x bin/slashlearn \ 5152:2014-11-19 ` sed 20:37:55 le/rn foo/bar//baz used to create an entry "foo" with contents "bar//baz", because it cut things at the first slash. le//rn did what le/rn does now: create and entry "foo/bar" with contents "baz" 20:38:57 `? curse 20:38:58 A curse is a curse, off course, of course. 20:38:59 `? cur 20:39:00 cur? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:39:03 `? cursed 20:39:04 cursed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:39:08 `? emu 20:39:09 emu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:42:07 ok 20:44:39 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:45:05 I have no idea how to make the TEWNLSWAC language + interpreter more golfy, I think I've added enough shortcuts. 20:45:53 enough? 20:46:18 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:47:41 yes, enough 20:48:55 e.g. In TEWNLSWAC, you could simplify ''a = a.b()'' to ''a .= b'' 20:50:05 or ''a = c:i a'' to ''c:i a'' 20:50:44 shouldn't that be a;_b. or something cryptic like that? 20:51:17 -!- MDude has joined. 20:52:10 I wanted to use the same syntax or a similar syntax for similar things. 20:53:15 The most shortcuts are just combined assign expressions, but combined assign expressions, that someone would assume, like ''a += b'' aren't supported. 20:54:32 or you can combine a bunch of ''a .= b; a .= c;'' ... into ''a .= {b c}'' 20:56:24 anyway, it's not the syntactic sugar that matters, but the (insert buzzword for new paradigm that's supposed to revolutionarize programming forever this month) 20:59:28 just look at Arthur Whitney. where did all that dense syntactic sugar, lack of automatic promotion, and inhomogeneous lists take him? is he a respected esolang designer now? 21:00:28 well no he isn't. everyone just cares about brainfuck, which has about the least amount of syntactic sugar or paradigm you could imagine! 21:00:51 what a stupid language, and look at how successful! 21:02:21 yes 21:10:57 -!- wladz has joined. 21:17:06 -!- hazyPurple has joined. 21:18:02 -!- hazyPurple has left ("Leaving"). 21:18:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:28:41 `wisdom 21:28:42 ​endomorphism//Endomorphisms are just final morphisms. 21:28:42 `quote 21:28:43 343) It's a Toy Story character, you uncultured fuck. 21:28:51 `wisdom 21:28:53 ​zzo38//zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem. 21:29:02 `random-card 21:29:04 Cackling Counterpart \ 1UU \ Instant \ Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control. \ Flashback {5}{U}{U} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ ISD-R, C14-R 21:29:13 that one needs a refresh of the card database by the way 21:29:15 `scheme 21:29:16 Evil Comes to Fruition 21:29:16 that too 21:29:25 `starwars 21:29:27 Supreme Leader Snoke 21:29:45 `recipe 21:29:46 ok over low heat until flour and pour \ is thoroughly completely melatais set. Microwave each cake; boil 4 hours, \ until melted too mush of skillet in foil; add remaining 1/4 cup of cheese. \ Stir together flour, baking powder and leaves to a platter. \ Sprinkle with basil. Place fish filling into a large bowl; \ lemon juice only fill stems o 21:30:03 `recipe 21:30:04 king Chocolate Yeese Cookery, Muffins, Teles April Mix Typed for you've \ or that and the serving. \ \ From: Date: 08-06-92 Formant, 125 mg sodium, 4 5 dozen \ with fresh apricots, 2 cups, 1/4 cups, 2% of cookies, 1 1/2 (3 T) \ Date: \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: BUFFALO MEAN-LAPTI BREAD \ Categ 21:30:10 [wiki] [[MMP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52999&oldid=50740 * Zseri * (+250) improve formatting 21:30:52 MMMMM, that sounds lovely 21:31:03 I'd like one 21:34:58 hm, I could remove most of the (mostly useless) syntactic sugar and simplify the (buggy) BISON parser. 21:40:45 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 21:41:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:51:58 @metar KOAK 21:51:58 KOAK 021953Z 27006KT 6SM HZ CLR 34/07 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP092 T03390067 21:53:12 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:58:09 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:00:41 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:02:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:50:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:11:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:48:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:57:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 2017-09-03: 00:24:21 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 00:29:05 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:30:04 [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53000&oldid=52973 * LyricLy * (+358) 01:41:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:50:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:59:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:06:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:07:42 -!- augur has joined. 02:16:36 ouch a legitimate user isn't getting past the spam filter 02:17:19 OTOH, do we really _want_ people with no reading comprehension... 02:19:01 (is there some way they might not be seeing the error message?) 02:40:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:43:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:45:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:53:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 03:03:59 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:31:58 {1} Artifact Creature (1/1) ;; When ~ enters the battlefield, if it is a token, you lose the game. Do you like this? 03:36:30 How would you use it? 03:37:08 It is a 1/1 creature for one mana, so that is one use. 03:37:21 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:37 Good point. 03:57:45 `? zerg 03:57:46 We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it. 03:58:03 oh misread the logs 03:58:10 (thought it was missing) 03:58:36 `5 w 03:58:41 1/3:phantom_______hoover//It doesn't get any better than this. \ loodun//Loodun Antyok demonstrates how to play a lawful character the exact opposite way from the lawful stupid archetype. \ luftballon//A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and sta 03:58:47 `n 03:58:48 2/3:rting wars between their enemies. \ oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. \ null pointer//Null pointers wer 03:59:05 `n 03:59:06 3/3:e bred to be more exceptional than other pointers. However, the whole effort went nowhere. 03:59:23 \oren\: What about two-storey lowercase g? 04:03:18 I hate getting up in the middle of the night. 04:04:56 int-e: are you travelling somewhere? 04:06:40 Yes, indeed. 04:07:35 (Oxford, but not for ICFP directly, there's a second conference called FSCD colocated with ICFP) 04:08:06 that sounds like a lot of trouble just to avoid Taneb 04:09:05 we have discussed this a bit :P 04:09:28 Anyway, it's the same building... it's not completely impossible that we'll meet. 04:10:44 assuming I make it there in one piece. 04:12:34 @metar lowi 04:12:35 LOWI 030250Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 -RA FEW006 BKN020 09/08 Q1017 04:13:00 Well, eww. But I guess -RA is better than Ra. 04:14:36 anyway, gotta go. 04:16:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:34:53 `? turing machine 04:34:54 A turing machine is a machine that turs. 04:36:08 `cat le/rm 04:36:09 ​#!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?" 04:36:24 `` ls -l le/rm 04:36:25 lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 13 Oct 28 2016 le/rm -> ../bin/forget 04:38:36 `? enigma: 04:38:38 No output. 04:38:53 `forget enigma: 04:38:55 Forget what? 04:55:06 `? oerjan 04:55:07 Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it. 04:55:32 gah 04:57:24 i feel like that wisdom entry is maybe overdone a tad hth 04:57:24 `slwd oerjan//s,isiv,ipherabl, 04:57:26 oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecipherable is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it. 04:57:41 you think? 04:58:24 pikhq: hikhq, how'z jamz? 04:59:07 `hwrl oerjan 04:59:08 come on, you can type seven characters 04:59:15 aww 04:59:19 `oag bin/hwrl 04:59:20 `hurl wisdom/oerjan 04:59:20 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oag: not found 04:59:21 https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/wisdom/oerjan 04:59:25 `doag bin/hwrl 04:59:32 9814:2016-12-02 mkx bin/hwrl//echo \'come on, you can type seven characters\' 04:59:42 What! 04:59:50 I completely didn't remember that. 04:59:56 I still don't. 05:03:28 Someone should tanebvent a script that takes a commit id and turns it into a log URL 05:03:41 It needs to account for time zones because tunes logs in Pacific time (I think?). 05:04:17 shachaf: College going alright. 05:04:55 3 semesters away, whoo. 05:05:06 pikhq: I'm scrapping 05:05:14 What should I do now? 05:05:28 Unclear. 05:09:58 `8ball Should shachaf take up crocheting? 05:09:59 As I see it, yes. 05:10:06 there you go. 05:11:22 `8ball What should shachaf take up? 05:11:22 Crocheting. 05:12:19 i was _not_ doing that cheat hth 05:14:51 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:17:23 * oerjan spots 125 mg sodium in one of HackEgo's recipes. are you sure these are healthy? 05:18:09 I had a blood test recently. 05:18:14 Apparently my sodium is slightly low. 05:23:40 <\oren\> So is hurrican Irma also going to Houston? 05:29:56 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:33:07 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:39:03 -!- APic has joined. 05:53:44 I advise against taking a pill of pure sodium. 05:53:56 It might seem the most efficient, but it'll be a bit more exciting than you are likely to appreciate. 05:54:53 Hmm, what if I balance it out by breathing some chlorine at the same time? 05:56:19 Well, it'll add to the excitement. 06:02:26 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDZKUqIjVPY 06:11:12 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:50:25 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:03:53 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:23:06 -!- imode has joined. 07:39:13 Moin 07:52:55 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 07:54:03 <\oren\> To make more room for city, I flattened out the edge of this mountain 07:54:15 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/ADqkuVf 07:55:33 <\oren\> the flattening tool automatically stops at the city limits, so you get a cliff hundreds of feet tall 07:57:29 . o O ( I know that money exchanges at airports are ripoffs... but this is the first time I've seen an ATM run by such a money exchange, which offers the same, very favorable (to them, they're a factor 1.15 from the nominal rate) exchange rates... ) 07:57:54 -!- jhurricane96 has joined. 07:59:30 Hey guys, I want to make a language to define rules for a 2d dungeon(rooms, paths and puzzles) with the compiler generating the dungeon 08:00:25 The rules would describe interactions b/w items 08:00:49 And pointers on how to get started on something like this? 08:05:46 -!- jhurricane96 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:05:52 -!- jhurricane96_ has joined. 08:06:36 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 08:13:05 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:25:54 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 08:31:17 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:34:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:59:39 Not sure 09:12:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:15:27 -!- augur has joined. 09:19:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:20:39 -!- jhurricane96_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:28:47 -!- zseri has joined. 09:31:06 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 09:37:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:39:49 -!- augur has joined. 09:43:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:47:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:49:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:52:09 -!- augur has joined. 09:56:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:59:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:25:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:29:29 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:31:06 -!- iovoid has quit (Quit: *). 10:31:15 -!- iovoid has joined. 10:31:15 -!- iovoid has quit (Changing host). 10:31:15 -!- iovoid has joined. 10:33:16 -!- zseri has joined. 10:35:45 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 10:48:15 -!- GeekDude has joined. 11:05:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:06:40 -!- zseri has joined. 11:06:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:06:52 I know that a function that takes 2 arguments is a binary function, but is there a similar name for functions or operators with no arguments? 11:13:28 Nullary? 11:20:59 thank you 11:21:26 I'll use that word now in my esolang's page for TEWNLSWAC. 11:28:14 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53001&oldid=52998 * Zseri * (-87) Expressions 12:07:27 hm 12:32:17 [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53002&oldid=44705 * Zseri * (+13) dead link 12:39:32 I don't know if it's possible to write a brainfuck interpreter in TEWELSWAC or in TEWNLSWAC. 12:44:04 but there should be a translation of a subset of HashHell (#hell) to TEWNLSWAC 13:06:25 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:25:54 [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53003&oldid=9684 * Zseri * (+66) improve formatting 13:40:44 -!- ^arcade_droid has changed nick to DTrump. 13:41:08 -!- DTrump has changed nick to ^arcade_droid. 14:13:36 -!- augur has joined. 14:17:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:34:09 [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53004&oldid=52399 * Qwertyu63 * (+0) 14:55:13 [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53005&oldid=52623 * Qwertyu63 * (+54) 14:57:40 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:57:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:01:08 [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53006&oldid=53005 * Qwertyu63 * (+224) 15:13:39 -!- zseri_ has joined. 15:14:23 -!- zseri_ has quit (Client Quit). 15:17:05 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:18:15 -!- moony has joined. 15:18:15 -!- moony has changed nick to Guest50143. 15:19:32 -!- Guest50143 has changed nick to moonythedwarf. 15:19:45 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Changing host). 15:19:45 -!- moonythedwarf has joined. 15:23:31 -!- zseri has joined. 15:24:07 Yeah, I finally got it. Hexchat works 15:31:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:55:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:27:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:29:30 -!- augur has joined. 16:33:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:42:29 -!- augur has joined. 16:43:49 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9). 16:43:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:44:15 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 16:46:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:51:05 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53007&oldid=53001 * Zseri * (+30) /* Binary Operators */ 16:53:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:55:05 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:06:41 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 17:10:22 -!- Antoxyde_ has joined. 17:11:37 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:22:49 Well it seems I made it. 17:37:12 Ok. 17:44:21 riding two of those weird winged things made of aluminium 18:00:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:22:17 [wiki] [[Crainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53008&oldid=9491 * Zseri * (+13) dead link 18:39:08 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:51:40 -!- imode has joined. 18:56:48 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:03:38 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 19:13:38 -!- augur has joined. 19:17:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:34:03 -!- erkin has joined. 19:41:19 I got an answer from Andrej Bauer: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals/80811#80811 19:58:17 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:42:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:54:06 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNbLl14kjms 21:18:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:19:29 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 21:22:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:22:33 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:25:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:30:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:35:48 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (+1846) Created page with "'''Javagrid''' is a two dimensional language about programming in a 2 dimensional grid. It is still in development. ==Language overview== Code is written in cells. A cell co..." 21:37:28 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53010&oldid=52986 * Stefan-hering * (+15) 21:39:22 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53011&oldid=53009 * Stefan-hering * (-14) 21:40:01 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53012&oldid=53007 * Zseri * (+64) const-reference 21:43:51 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:44:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:49:19 `? fizzbuzz 21:49:27 fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:52:21 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:52:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:52:40 bye 21:52:45 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:06:20 -!- imode has joined. 22:10:08 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:14:57 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:15:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:17:53 -!- augur has joined. 22:34:50 [wiki] [[Implicit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53013 * MD XF * (+578) Create page (reserve) 22:35:20 [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53014 * MD XF * (+578) Created page with "Implicit, also called SimpleStack, is a WIP language by MD XF. There are two types of commands: * Those that behave differently on strings than they do on integers/floats *..." 22:35:27 [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53015&oldid=53014 * MD XF * (-2) 22:35:35 [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53016&oldid=53013 * MD XF * (-2) 22:35:54 [wiki] [[Implicit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53017&oldid=53016 * MD XF * (+22) 22:36:14 [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53018&oldid=53015 * MD XF * (+22) 22:38:21 [wiki] [[SimpleStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53019&oldid=53018 * Ais523 * (-576) please use redirects rather than creating multiple identical pages 22:49:35 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:55 -!- erkin has joined. 23:11:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:13:05 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:17:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:19:43 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:20:37 -!- olsner has joined. 23:24:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:45:22 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127546339 23:52:21 -!- ATMunn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:29 -!- ATMunn has joined. 23:55:32 -!- ATMunn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:58:22 -!- ATMunn has joined. 2017-09-04: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:19 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:11:45 -!- Antoxyde_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:44:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:03:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:08 -!- augur has joined. 01:25:41 -!- tromp has joined. 01:30:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:33:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:53:12 -!- imode has joined. 02:16:23 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 02:17:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:20:24 -!- tromp has joined. 02:25:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:40:19 <\oren\> I FINALLY DID IT 02:40:23 <\oren\> 200 K POPULATION 02:40:27 <\oren\> http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127628055 02:40:37 <\oren\> WUHU! 02:45:08 \oren\: is this about the time you send in the giant monsters? 02:45:43 only after copying his save file. :P 02:46:03 lynn: do you have the CJam cheat sheet somewhere? someone marked the link as dead on the wiki page 02:46:19 oh yeah http://foldr.moe/cjam.pdf 02:47:26 [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53020&oldid=53002 * Oerjan * (-41) /* Instructions */ Fix link 02:48:10 thanks 02:49:45 [wiki] [[CJam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53021&oldid=53020 * Oerjan * (+6) /* Instructions */ pdf warning 03:00:02 "The Official Crainfuck Distribution (dead link) (can someone please mirror this?)" apparently we couldn't. 03:00:42 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:13:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:15:30 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:21:29 `? fizzbuzz 03:21:30 fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:21:52 fizziebuzzie 03:21:54 `learn Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. 03:21:58 Learned 'fizzbuzz': Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. 03:23:10 And others by fizzwords. 03:23:52 you are technically correct. 03:24:20 but that wouldn't really improve the wisdom. 03:24:22 oerjan: OK, that one's actually pretty funny 03:24:28 yay! 03:24:59 also, I define "fizzword" as "a word used like a buzzword, but which was never meaningful" 03:24:59 ais523: I think tastes on wisdom entries vary. 03:25:08 shachaf: indeed 03:25:15 So are all fizzwords buzzwords? 03:26:36 I think buzzwords are generally originally meaningful, although the original meaning may have been dubiously useful at best and they may often be used in a way unrelated to their meaning 03:30:58 We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple. 03:31:15 The future has plenty of downsides but this is nice. 03:38:03 . o O ( the future brexit all, putin in downsides that trump everything ) 03:38:22 Earlier today I tried connecting the printer to the USB on the front of the computer instead of the USB on the back, and this time it did not result a kernel panic 03:40:59 did it result in a kernel panic the previous time? 03:45:14 hi ais523 03:45:21 Did you ever write up the rules to your jam? 03:45:34 I have a jam? 03:45:40 I mean game. 03:45:42 -!- tromp has joined. 03:46:01 shachaf: no, although I've been thinking about them 03:46:07 trying to pin down certain details 03:49:56 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 03:50:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:50:53 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Isny * New user account 03:51:54 What sorts of details? 03:52:33 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53022&oldid=52996 * Isny * (+158) /* Introductions */ 03:55:43 <\oren\> best song of the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4H5IArtaw 03:56:49 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53023&oldid=53010 * Isny * (+10) 03:57:37 [wiki] [[Rev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53024 * Isny * (+56) Created page with "Rev is a small, stack based language based on [[Mouse]]." 03:59:16 [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53025&oldid=53024 * Isny * (+148) 04:01:21 [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53026&oldid=53025 * Isny * (+585) 04:01:52 -!- imode has joined. 04:02:40 [wiki] [[Rev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53027&oldid=53026 * Isny * (+29) 04:06:55 ais523: I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic. 04:07:19 shachaf: mostly what each of the resources is used for 04:07:51 What is that game? 04:08:16 <\oren\> zzo38: jigoku kisetsukan 04:08:17 What resources are there? 04:08:56 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/368950/ 04:09:06 i,i with no other recourses but my own resources 04:09:09 No I mean ais523 04:09:55 shachaf: even that wasn't pinned down until fairly recently, and I'm still not 100% on what one of them does in a specific circumstance 04:10:14 zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible 04:10:23 (the problems can either be balance problems or UI problems) 04:11:06 solaris is dead, long live solaris. 04:12:11 I was trying to think of a slightly different resource system for Magic: The Gathering at one point. 04:12:36 shachaf: What different resource system? 04:12:41 this one's asymmetrical 04:13:04 One property of it was that instead of having red mana, you would have things requiring mana + red as two separate resources. 04:13:29 Which I guess is already the way some games work. 04:13:57 ais523: OK. I had some ideas too, such as writing the rules as a literate computer programming, to make the rules more clear, and if anything remains unclear, you can figure it out by putting it into the computer to figure out. 04:16:17 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:16:36 MtG resources are pretty complicated. 04:16:48 Magic: the Gathering has some things unclear and I thought to do by literate computer programming and mathematics to make clearer, although also there is still some klugy rules which are not quite so mathematically elegant; fortunately most of those problems have been fixed. They also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary; while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, 04:16:52 E.g. karma that you can only use for casting creature spells, or that has an effect on a creature if you use that karma to cast it. 04:18:09 * oerjan thinks zzo38's client needs a wrap long lines feature 04:18:12 Well, it is "mana" and not "karma" in Magic: the Gathering, although yes those things do exist (but they aren't so common) 04:19:29 oerjan: I should perhaps to put in the mode to ring the bell if you try to type too much on one line, but I don't even know what limit 04:19:48 Sometimes there are other restrictions. 04:20:15 Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells 04:20:33 shachaf: Yes, there are many other kinds too. 04:21:26 Oh man, Piracy 04:21:29 zzo38: i think it's 510 bytes for the whole IRC line 04:21:48 and that includes information that's specific to the recipient, IIRC 04:22:03 so there's no way to know exactly what limit is safe without knowing all the possible metadata the recipient could see 04:22:10 oh 04:22:50 Play it safe and don't write any messages longer than four bytes. 04:23:10 ais523: That is what I thought, which make it difficult to know what to set it to. I would make it a user configurable setting of course, but still I should have to know what to set it to! 04:23:44 shachaf: Can't; the word PRIVMSG itself is seven bytes. 04:24:39 That's not part of the message. 04:25:06 O,OK 04:25:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:25:52 wait what. apparently my splitlong.pl script no longer exists on this server. 04:26:06 splitlong works badly with freenode anyway 04:26:08 been meaning to take it off 04:26:15 the symbolic link goes nowhere 04:26:42 I was going for OKAY 04:26:53 But O,OK works too. 04:27:36 why would i respond to messages directed at other people 04:28:38 oerjan: one of the social rules you learn playing werewolf/mafia is not to respond to messages directed at other people 04:28:55 We aren't playing werewolf/mafia. 04:29:02 there's no game rule against it but people will get annoyed at you if you do, because it can kind-of mess up their plans (and it looks like you're covering for the intended recipient) 04:29:41 oh i see. splitlong still works, somehow. perhaps it's become an internal irssi feature. 04:30:32 Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC? 04:31:49 ais523: I thought that was an in-person game. 04:31:55 Never heard of it played on IRC. 04:32:09 shachaf: I mostly play it on web forums, although I've played it on IRC too 04:32:14 Do you play Contact? 04:32:21 it works in pretty much any medium that allows for communication 04:32:24 and I don't know what Contact is 04:32:28 It's a word game that can be played in person or over IRC, but I wrote a web application that implements it. 04:32:44 Yes I suppose that I should to add a setting for a bell in case of too long line. For my personal setting, I could assume that it uses a prefix ":zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-999-999.eastlink.ca " at the start (although it isn't actually "999") to figure out what limit to set 04:33:12 One person thinks of a word and reveals some prefix of it, and others try to think of clues for other words that start with that prefix. 04:33:40 Hrm, so there's a prefix part + PRIVMSG + target + message, in the server-to-client side portion. 04:33:42 If they can clue to each other successfully, one letter of the prefix is revealed. 04:34:41 pikhq: Yes, and "PRIVMSG" and the target and message are already counted, so the only remaining part is the prefix part, and the space that comes between it and "PRIVMSG". 04:35:50 There does not appear to be a maximum prefix length. 04:36:32 Doesn't matter now, since we can guess at it. 04:37:29 isn't it part of WHOIS reply for yourself? 04:37:37 A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned. 04:37:40 If there is a limit for the server to client length, then if the client to server length is not a smaller maximum then you will just make the guess. As I said it can (and I think it should in other client too) be a user-configurable setting. 04:38:01 It's 512 both directions. 04:39:05 oerjan: Yes, and that is how to figure out, but still I should to just make the user setting (replacing "-56-48" with "-999-999" instead, in case those numbers change unexpectedly to three digits, which does seem possible). 04:39:51 512 when counting CRLF, no? 04:39:55 (I actually want to change it to "@zzo38computer.org" instead of "@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca", but it seems that Freenode doesn't support forward-DNS cloaks.) 04:40:13 -!- tromp has joined. 04:40:19 oerjan: Correctly. 04:40:26 pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS? 04:41:06 But, in case one of my previous messages today was cut off, then please to notify me that I can repeat the part that you did not receive. 04:41:47 I don't know that the prefix is actually required to be a real connection? 04:41:51 I mean, maybe it is. 04:42:02 Oh. There is an entry suggesting it's intended to be. 04:42:15 I don't see it as a hard requirement, but it seems that's the intent. 04:42:23 pikhq: Isn't it about time someone invented a good build system? 04:42:37 Will that person be you? 04:42:49 zzo38: the one i saw ended with "logical and mathematically elegant," 04:43:06 which seemed like it might have been cut off 04:43:28 ... while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, the change itself seems messy to me. 04:44:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:44:40 isn't the prefix replaced with the freenode cloak if you have one? 04:45:06 The domain name is, but not the nickname and username. 04:46:21 <\oren\> http://make.girls.moe 04:47:18 Hunh. 04:52:50 ais523: Will you tell me what kind of stuff now is your game? Did you write any rules yet at all, or nothing yet? 04:55:27 zzo38: I wrote some but I need to change some of it 04:59:28 Some of my ideas also are, that the cards can be sold in a box with all card of the set, arranged in sections by rarity (for assembling packs), and within each section by alphabetical order, which together with the included list of cards can be used to check in case any are missing. 05:00:19 Also would include the complete printed rules, and a DVD with open-source computer implementation of the rules and complete card database. 05:03:10 Some people have told me that the rarity is meaningless if they are in the boxes like that, but I disagree, because the rarities can be used to construct a "booster draft" like in Magic: the Gathering, or like sealed in Magic: the Gathering. 05:03:43 ais523: What do you think some of the biggest problems with Magic: the Gathering is, then? 05:04:49 the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem 05:05:06 -!- idonob has joined. 05:05:15 because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make 05:05:44 in the rules I'm working on, priority is a more important part of the game (meaning that people keep track of it) and is gained much less often (making it less tedious to deal with) 05:06:13 specifically, if it's not your turn, you can only do the equivalent of playing a spell or activating an ability if it's a response to something an opponent does 05:06:29 (this obviously changes the balance of the game but it can be designed around) 05:07:55 Sirlin's "Codex" game has a different kind of solution: You cannot make any choices at all if it isn't your turn. This means that your opponent must declare blockers before you attack, instead of afterward. 05:09:10 i,i gain priority until end of turn 05:09:44 zzo38: many games do that but it cuts down the tactical depth somewhat 05:12:07 Yes, I think you are correct. 05:13:21 ais523: Did you play Cale's favorite game, Prismata? 05:13:34 no 05:13:43 Although I mean even more than in Pokemon card, where sometimes something you do does require opponent to make choices on your turn; in Codex, the rules explicitly prohibit this, in order to allow long delays of several days between turns. 05:17:11 However in Magic: the Gathering still the computer UI can be done, such as if you assign a key combination for each step/phase of the turn, and then if you push that key it will pass priority until that phase/step if no other player does anything and no new information is revealed. (You can also just pass priority normally.) Can also assign one key to auto-play during a mana step or such. 05:17:19 Oh man, correspondence Magic: The Gathering 05:17:25 That sounds like a good game. 05:25:49 -!- augur has joined. 05:29:23 correspondence chess boxing 05:32:43 How are you going to fight by correspondence? 05:33:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:33:31 -!- augur has joined. 05:34:24 -!- tromp has joined. 05:35:37 <\oren\> correspondence Sid Meier's Civilization 05:38:12 oerjan: It's on the honour system. You get a letter in the mail and it has "Bxe5. Left hook." 05:38:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:40:25 Keith Johnstone talks about games like mimed tug-of-war and slow-motion tag. 05:40:53 Sometimes people play those games and try to win, which is obviously pretty silly. 05:43:24 Perhaps after I fix the bug in MIXPC with LD1N instruction, I can also to add the overpunch mode. Some characters will no longer be valid MIX characters (or even valid Hollerith characters) when overpunched, so sometimes the result is lossy, especially since the file is using 8-bit characters rather than 12-bit characters. 05:46:53 (Overpunch mode is something I have not seen in any other MIX implementation. The other thing I have not seen in other MIX implementations is the support to connect to an actual printer for output (although MIXPC still supports print to file, too).) 05:48:20 The ability to split a partially read card deck might be another thing to add, too. 06:28:14 -!- tromp has joined. 06:32:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:02:08 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:07:54 shachaf: OK, I wrote up what I have so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt 07:08:43 this should hopefully be a framework that's general enough to do lots of interesting things but simple enough that it's clear how it works, even if a few of the rules look complex when written down 07:08:50 I'm hoping it'd be more intuitive in actual play 07:10:33 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 07:10:54 OK I will read too 07:13:28 Does the General have a different card back than the other cards? 07:13:34 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:13:52 Or is it the same? 07:15:47 I hadn't thought of that; within these rules it doesn't matter, so making it different might make it easier to find if it gets shuffled into a deck by mistake 07:16:26 You could make it a different size, too. 07:17:48 There are benefits in either case; it depends whether or not they should be drafted together. In Magic: the Gathering, conspiracies (which are purely optional) are drafted together with the rest of the cards. 07:18:32 I assume that, if this game is distributed using booster packs, generals would show up in those occasionally 07:18:39 although probably not very often as decks only need one 07:18:44 that'd be a reason to make them the same size 07:19:42 I think it depends on whether or not you are going to draft them together, whether or not to make the back the same, although if they do come in the same pack that is a good enough reason to be the same size whether or not the back is the same. 07:20:38 I meant larger but I suppose you could make it smaller too. 07:25:07 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 07:26:50 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:29:43 -!- ais523 has quit. 07:41:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 08:15:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:16:15 -!- tromp has joined. 08:20:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:24:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:44:01 -!- tromp has joined. 09:01:52 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 09:06:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:31:13 -!- augur has joined. 09:46:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:48:01 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:56:19 -!- idonob has quit (Quit: host lost). 09:59:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:10:15 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 10:11:50 -!- augur has joined. 10:16:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:20:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:24:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:24:30 * b_jonas tries to read recent backlog of this channel. "I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic." and "Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells" wait, magma? 10:24:58 zzo38: I can tell about the irc length limits if you want to know more details 10:27:19 " the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem / because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make" => yes, but I think you can still make a decent computer interface that allows players to rollback actions by other players and requires explicit confirm for irreversable events like revealing new information that the player doing the ac 10:28:08 I think it could be made to work decently for M:tG, at least within Earthly communication lag. 10:28:50 " pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?" => yes, but the list can change dynamically 10:29:33 and the list isn't even made automatically public by the IRC infrastructure, so it's not quite clear if the docs on their homepage is complete or if the DNS entry for chat.freenode points to all servers (there may be non-public servers) 10:29:49 they are likely complete most of the time, but you can't tell how up to date 10:31:17 " A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned." => freenode has a length limit of 63 bytes on the hostname, above that it will display the ip or ipv6 address 10:32:27 zzo38: one tricky part is that there's an extra byte in the received message for PRIVMSG and NOTICE messages that is only added if the client requests it with an option. It's an obsolate extension, but many clients still use it. 10:33:14 " Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?" => not globally accross all networks, not really. not with quakenet supporting channel names up to 200 bytes. 10:34:57 on freenode, 356 bytes is the definitely safe limit, but you can go longer if you know some of the target name, your nick and username and hostname (but the server can change your nick asynchly for a nick collision) 10:35:41 what's this thing ais523 was talking about? is he designing a new game? 10:37:27 " [your rules] also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary;" => that sounds like a bad idea to me. aren't there more than one very powerful Jaces, and decks with 16 planeswalkers played competitively even in Standard? 11:27:01 ``` \? fizzbuzz # lol 11:27:31 Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. 11:28:01 " zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible" => what was the context for this? what is that set of rules? 11:29:54 " We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple." => wow. that's some serious future indeed. I'll probably buy a new mobile phone this year or next year, and it will be one I can charge with these USB charger thingies that I'm already using to charge my camera, bluetooth microphone headphone adapter, and electric razor. 11:30:08 (although the camera requires the other kind of cable) 11:32:22 Your other things all use USB type-C? 11:33:46 shachaf: the razor and the headphone adapter uses the same plug as most current mobile phones. I'm not sure if that's "type-C" 11:34:01 my other things aren't charged by USB 11:36:48 in particular, my mobile phone is charged by a round plug DC charger 11:37:04 it has a USB port, but only for data, not charge 11:38:58 the camera uses the other, slightly less common USB port, which some other cameras use too 11:43:23 (the electric toothbrush doesn't use USB either, but that's probably a good thing) 11:46:30 Ah, probably not. 11:46:44 USB type C is the future, man. 11:47:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:47:44 shachaf: I don't believe it. people keep saying that the current standard is the future and I should buy into it now because everything and everyone will use only that in the future, but it often lasts only a few years or at most ten years. I'm older than to believe that. 11:48:26 It's a great way to sell things, I admit that, and I've been tricked by it several times during my life. 11:50:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:52:53 you know what I'd like? a calendar that displays both the name of the month and the number of the month together. 11:53:06 most calendars have just one or the other 11:53:22 but I actually use both and need to know both 11:58:50 <\oren\> well english names have numbers in them, but the wrong numbers 12:03:03 just use the discordian calendar, only 5 months to rememer 12:06:26 Aaand St. Tibb's Day, but only in Leapyears ☺ 12:07:24 s/ibb/ib/ 12:15:34 @Hoolootwo: but I don't want to remember anything. that's the whole point. the calendar is there to remember everything instead of me. 12:15:34 Unknown command, try @list 12:16:37 Even in our calendar, I'm generally only confused about the matching of names and numbers in three months now. 12:16:54 Or maybe four. 12:22:32 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:48:47 ICFP is very busy 12:51:20 Yeah I'm noticing this too. 12:51:45 Though L1 is still pretty empty right now. 12:52:18 what? an empty L1 cache? that's a miracle 12:52:42 -!- idris-bot has joined. 12:53:11 b_jonas: you're out 12:53:30 http://icfp17.sigplan.org/room/icfp-2017-venue-l1 12:54:32 Well at least I've seen SPJ from afar :P 12:57:30 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 12:58:54 and in any case it's filling up now 13:01:46 int-e: it may have been pretty empty but it may have in fact contained me 13:02:55 But L1 suddenly got very not empty at all 13:07:48 Although I somehow have a free seat either side of me 13:08:28 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:12:06 -!- moony has joined. 13:12:07 -!- moony has changed nick to Guest53736. 13:17:58 -!- erkin has joined. 13:49:37 int-e: are you here all week? 14:23:52 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:33:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:35:35 -!- zseri has joined. 14:35:44 hi again 14:37:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:37:48 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:44:31 -!- joast has joined. 14:45:45 -!- ^arcade_droid has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:46:08 [wiki] [[Natyre]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53028&oldid=51308 * Keymaker * (+47) Clarified one sentence. 14:46:19 -!- zarcade_droid has joined. 14:46:42 -!- zarcade_droid has changed nick to Guest28588. 14:53:36 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:56:06 Taneb: I'm leaving on Saturday 14:56:23 now back in L2 :P 14:57:11 ("back" in the sense that FSCD is what I'm registered for) 15:12:09 ICFP contest full results are now available at https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/ 15:12:24 not too surprising since the prizes are given on the conference 15:13:32 ah no 15:13:34 it's not full results 15:13:48 it's just almost full results, because they hold back the full results until the prize ceremony 15:56:38 -!- mroman has joined. 15:56:54 moo 15:57:16 how does stuff like if (x > z) || (q <= r) assemble on x86? 15:58:30 if? 15:59:12 or not if 16:00:03 in any case there is no single answer. mov rax, x; cmp rax, y; jg l; mov rax, q; cmp rax, r; jle l; jmp g; l: ... g: ... is the most naive way but no good compiler will do that. 16:00:29 https://godbolt.org/g/Atht9E 16:00:32 so it needs jumps 16:00:34 indeed 16:01:27 there's set where is a condition code (like g or le above) and r is a register 16:01:38 but with -O3 it will be setg 16:01:44 which doesn't jump, so doesn't mess up branch prediction. 16:02:14 I was planning on adding equ, lt, lte, instructions 16:02:23 such as equ dst a b 16:02:29 which sets dst to 1 if a == b otherwise 0 16:02:43 this way you don't need two instructions 16:03:18 (I was also planning on having a cmp instruction) 16:03:25 (which can be used for conditional instructions) 16:14:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:16:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:50:12 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9sE2S8Pho 16:52:56 b_jonas: It is Wizards of the Coast who removed the planeswalker uniqueness rule. The new way seems logical and makes sense to me, although the change itself looks messy to me (retroactively changing planeswalkers to legendary). 16:53:56 zzo38: are you talking about the M14 rule changes? 16:54:15 because that did not retroactively change them to legendary 16:56:30 No I mean the future change 16:58:19 ah 16:58:22 I hadn't seen them 17:00:09 but wasn't the legendary rule changed as well not too long ago? 17:03:28 Do you mean this change? https://yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/dgm-m14/#D704.5k. 17:03:42 Or a more recent change? 17:09:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:11:04 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:14:17 that one 17:16:58 -!- mroman has joined. 17:26:19 -!- augur has joined. 17:30:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:35:34 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:41:02 I plan to drop the load (l) and store (v) commands of TEWNLSWAC 17:41:17 zzo38: WHAT? 17:41:24 let me look that up. that looks strange. 17:41:33 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:41:50 because I can emulate them using nested objects. 17:45:10 zzo38: I don't see where that happened. was this recent? 17:47:20 zzo38: unless it's a change so recent it's not in the Comp Rules yet, it doesn't look to me like they changed planeswalkers to legendary. the changed the legend rule and the planeswalker uniqueness rule at some point so they only count within permanents controlled by one player, not across players, but planeswalkers still care about their 'walker type, not their name. 17:47:31 whereas legendary permanents care about their name. 17:47:46 b_jonas: they just announced it 17:48:12 alercah: can you point to a source? 17:48:16 b_jonas: google can 17:48:17 hth 17:50:25 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics 17:50:32 no wonder I hadn't heard that yet 17:51:03 how is that going to work in Modern with the 16-planeswalker decks? will we have a 12-Jace deck now? or did those always only work in Standard? 17:51:30 -!- augur has joined. 17:53:16 well, "Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret" still comfortably fits the type line with the new ugly font, so it's technically possible. it might even be better for understanding, and they probably know more about whether it turns Jace to too dangerous 17:53:59 the fact that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is still banned in Modern probably helps 17:54:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:59:07 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53029&oldid=53012 * Zseri * (-226) removed sdat stack (update with interpreter) 17:59:19 ok, done. 18:07:29 I did say it is a future rule, not a current one. 18:08:30 Still, that kind of change does seem messy to me, even though I think the new way is sensible. 18:11:40 zzo38: there are only a few cards that care about non-creatures being legendary, such as one in Amonkhet and a few in Kamigawa. 18:12:07 some of those cards get better, some worse. 18:12:21 and yes, I know we have planeswalker creatures, but printed and animated after the fact 18:12:37 ok, technically none of them are printed as a creature 18:12:51 but one or two have a built-in ability to turn them to a creature 18:21:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:25:47 -!- joast has joined. 18:33:51 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:38:36 -!- imode has joined. 18:38:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:41:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:45:42 -!- augur has joined. 18:45:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:49:24 -!- joast has joined. 18:53:22 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:02:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:08:05 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53030&oldid=53029 * Zseri * (+45) symbol vs variable 19:10:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:12:16 * int-e has confirmed the existence of Taneb (though this is really a zero knowledge proof) 19:15:27 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:15:50 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53031&oldid=53030 * Zseri * (+38) /* Binary Commands */ 19:19:17 <* Taneb> conversely has the beginnings of an existence proof for int-e 19:32:37 -!- b_jonas_ has joined. 19:36:28 -!- ^v^v has joined. 19:37:35 -!- b_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 19:37:35 -!- ^v has quit (*.net *.split). 19:38:27 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:40:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds). 19:42:05 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:42:07 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 19:42:07 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:54 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 19:45:45 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:46:05 -!- shikhin has joined. 19:46:33 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Guest35351. 19:46:50 -!- Guest35351 has changed nick to shikhin_. 19:46:55 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Changing host). 19:46:55 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 19:47:10 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 19:48:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:52:02 -!- mroman has joined. 19:52:12 dear gogogle 19:52:15 *google 19:52:16 fuck you 19:52:22 please stop thinking I'm not human. 19:52:30 kthxbye 20:02:04 mroman: don't be a bot, have a cookie! 20:04:31 I'm a bot. 20:04:33 With a failing liver. 20:04:52 You have a failing liver? 20:07:54 My transaminases are elevated. 20:07:58 they don't really know why. 20:08:06 but it usually indicates some damage to the liver. 20:09:58 thus it might not be the liver failing 20:10:09 it might be something else failing that just happens to also punch the liver in the nuts 20:10:51 I think that the rule about maximum health being reduced to also reduce current health should be clarified. 20:17:45 ? 20:17:48 Magic the Gathering? 20:18:12 mroman: probably the TCG work-in-progress that I posted here last night 20:18:18 Also I think can be simplify by the manoeuvres not giving name for each action also, and instead to have something like "manoeuvre name: negative resources, source -> destination, positive resources: action" 20:18:19 beacuse shachaf's been bugging me about it for months 20:18:32 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:18:44 zzo38: I like giving things names because it makes it possible for cards to talk about them 20:19:00 one big problem that Magic had was not differentiating between, say, fire and lightning spells mechanically early on 20:19:06 For example "Start: hand -> ready, logistics 5: End the turn." 20:19:09 meaning that they can't draw a mechanical distinction nowadays 20:19:28 ais523: yeah, I have mention that a few days ago. they don't have a damage type system. 20:19:48 massive in particular is something that things probably want to care about 20:19:55 ais523: what was this rules thing you were talking about earlier? 20:20:00 ais523: Yes, but the manoeuvres and aspects still themself have names 20:20:14 "massive"? 20:20:21 also that manoeuvre in particular would make it possible to end the turn with a card on the tactics track; the rules handle that state but it's something I'd imagine you'd do rarely if at all 20:20:31 wob_jonas: "massive: end your rurn" 20:20:34 *turn 20:20:50 basically, this game doesn't have summoning sickness 20:21:09 ais523: I do mean "end your turn", and doesn't the rules say you can't end any turn if there are any tactics? 20:21:11 so the easiest way to make something that's ready to defend as soon as it's played, but can't attack as soon as it's played, is to end the turn when it becomes ready 20:21:24 zzo38: not via the normal methods 20:21:30 but I assume rules on the cards override the rules of the game 20:23:57 ais523: what game is this again? is it the one you're planning that I don't know much about? 20:24:08 wob_jonas: it doesn't even have a name yet 20:24:20 here are my notes: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt 20:24:47 is it a trading card game? if so, then we can just call it Feather: TCG; or Feather: Collectible Card Game. 20:26:00 ais523: I was also trying to figure out if I could make something of a toy TCG, but I quickly realized I'm bad at designing entirely new games or writing new stories, I should just stick to analyzing existing games and existing stories. 20:26:03 Possibly, can then to write the Haskell program (or some other programming language) to make an implementation on computer, and can be made literate programming so that this is the rule document it explain the rule including by computer program too. 20:26:15 I did come up with a few mechanics, but they don't really work together. 20:26:21 wob_jonas: I don't think it has anything to do with Feather 20:26:24 wob_jonas: What did you come up with? 20:27:17 zzo38: probably the most useful idea I had is that when creatures attack you (which normally happens once per turn) you get to evade (escape, run away from) one for free by default. 20:27:51 in that case they don't deal combat damage to you, but you can also do this if you also don't want to deal combat damage to them 20:28:49 and then there can be a ton of abilities that modify this, both on creatures (fast creatures you can't evade, slow creatures so you can evade any number of slow creatures or up to one non-slow creature) or abilities affecting the player (boots of speed to evade an extra creature per combat) 20:29:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:29:28 -!- heroux has joined. 20:30:21 `card-by-name darksteel myr 20:30:30 Darksteel Myr \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Myr \ 0/1 \ Indestructible (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this creature. If its toughness is 0 or less, it's still put into its owner's graveyard.) \ SOM-U 20:31:08 wob_jonas: being able to cancel one attack a turn (unless it's hard to stop) is apparently worth 3 mana 20:32:09 ais523: in M:tG. I'm not saying this rule in context of M:tG 20:32:14 but good to know 20:32:25 wob_jonas: right, I was just thinking "M:tG has done something similar" 20:32:35 although Darksteel Myr doesn't have defender, which makes it better if you increase its power somehow 20:33:30 `card-by-name maze of ith 20:33:31 Maze of Ith \ Land \ {T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. \ DK-U, EMA-R, ME4-R, V12-M 20:33:54 that also has a similar effect, although IIRC it's normally considered broken 20:34:13 (as you can see from the set of sets it's printed in!) 20:34:15 If you asked that in advance, the cheapest I'd have known is four mana, for Trap Runner (which works on fliers and even unblockable creatures by the way) or Uncle Istvan (a very old pseudo-indestructible creature) 20:38:31 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 20:40:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:25 -!- augur has joined. 20:42:50 ah right. Order of the Stars. that works well enough for this in practice 20:43:20 `card-by-name order of the stars 20:43:22 in fact, wait 20:43:25 `card-by-name Beloved Chaplain 20:43:26 even better 20:43:47 that's straight two mana and is good against any creature it can block 20:44:13 Beloved Chaplain \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ Protection from creatures \ OD-U 20:44:13 Order of the Stars \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/1 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ As Order of the Stars enters the battlefield, choose a color. \ Order of the Stars has protection from the chosen color. \ GPT-U 20:44:15 I didn't know about that one. I used Inviolability, which is an aura version. 20:44:35 you could make the argument for mother of runes, actually 20:44:39 haha, its flavor text is actually “Nomad and Nantuko, eagle and elephant; all the birds and beasts are charmed by his quiet dignity.” 20:44:44 she can block a creature, then give herself protection from it after the block 20:44:53 although that's hardly the most broken thing you can do with that card 20:45:00 the quiet dignity in that quote and its art is in nice contrast with Inviolability, which has the opposite flavor 20:45:43 also I don't recognise those set codes 20:45:45 ais523: not "then give protection". they all already have protection almost all the time. 20:45:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:46:02 wob_jonas: I was talking about mother of runes 20:46:07 `card-by-name mother of runes 20:46:08 GPT is Guildpact, from Ravnica block 20:46:09 Mother of Runes \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. \ UL-U, CMD-U, EMA-R, DDO-U 20:46:15 ais523: right, that does more 20:46:30 oh right, that's the expensive one for one mana 20:46:32 yes, that's even better 20:46:42 I didn't pick up when you mentioned that 20:46:44 oh, OD must be Odyssey 20:46:58 mother of runes is probably the best creature costing {W} 20:47:16 I don't think it's the best, but it might be close to 20:47:34 there's a lot of competition for best 20:47:38 what do you think is better? 20:47:42 and depends on the environment 20:48:02 some environments have longer matches with many creatures, in those the Soul Sisters are probably better 20:50:56 and I suspect the best creature costing {W} would be more expensive in money than what Mother of the Runes cost for uncommon 21:08:29 OH NO more double-faced cards with a land on the back face and a new pair of symbols identifying which face is the front and which is the back. STOP THAT, Wizards. You shouldn't have printed the first one either. 21:08:47 I don't like double face cards 21:09:10 wait what does that do to the sleeve market? 21:09:56 and the icon for the back face is even fucking the same as the land icon on Future Sight timeshifted futuristic border cards. That's even worse. 21:10:57 int-e: not much, I think. 21:11:28 (Ok, technically the icon isn't exactly the same, but it is very similar.) 21:11:55 (Maybe it is exactly the same. I can't tell from this low resolution.) 21:12:19 Ah wait! This one isn't so bad 21:12:46 wob_jonas: Wizards have a perpetual problem trying to identify which side of a DFC is which, in an objective way that can be written into the rules 21:12:46 it has a reminder text on the back side that says it's the back side 21:12:46 then I guess it's OK 21:12:54 I think that's why they have the reminder text 21:13:36 so what do the rules say about faking a reminder text? 21:13:43 ais523: yeah. it doesn't help that they keep messing up the Gatherer, so very often double-faced cards (and flip cards and split cards) show up wrong in Gatherer itself. If even they don't know, how should I know? 21:13:54 int-e: faking in what sense? 21:13:58 that said, I can't imagine that the reminder text is the actual rules-defined way to tell the sides apart 21:14:22 ais523: no, it's probably not. but that's not a problem here 21:14:24 wob_jonas: M:tgO sometimes has a bug where it allows half a split card to exist on its own 21:14:49 ais523: my problem is that if you happen to never look at the FRONT of the card, you might not realize the card is double-faced, and think it's a single face land 21:15:12 you'd notice when you tried to put it into a deck 21:15:20 or sleeve it 21:15:30 or do people sleeve cards without ever looking at the other side? 21:16:20 oh god, there are sanctioned proxies ("checklist cards")?! 21:16:35 int-e: they're not really proxies, they look nothing like the original 21:16:45 ais523: I probably do sometimes sleeve cards that way when making a deck, but I already know more or less what cards I have in my collection and would know if I had a double-sided card (I have zero. I also have no flip cards. I do have a few split cards.) 21:16:50 their only purpose is to have a normal back so that they can represent the position of a DFC in a deck without giving it away, even if you don't use sleeves 21:17:49 ais523: they are proxies in the literal sense; they stand for the card indicated on the checklist. 21:17:57 btw, part of the purpose of the reserves in my game is so that if you want to do something DFC-like, you can just fetch the other card from the reserves 21:18:09 int-e: no, it's sort of backwards. during a game, the checklist cards are the normal cards you use most of the time, and you can use the double-faced to represent the card in public zones. when buying or submitting a deck or drafting, that's when you need the double-faced card to be allowed to use it, and the checklist cards are penny cards you alw 21:18:09 ays have or can get access to. 21:18:36 this channel is full of nerds. 21:18:52 they're a combination token supply and sideboard and back-DFC-face and tuner for tunable cards (i.e. I'm envisaging cards that can affect opponent's cards only if you have a copy in your own reserves, so you can choose to hate out specific cards) 21:19:04 `quote nerd 21:19:06 102) Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 482) we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic 21:19:18 -!- ais523 has quit. 21:19:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:19:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 21:19:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:21:14 ais523: Ah, OK I suppose that can work, I like that 21:21:21 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:22:39 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53032&oldid=53011 * Stefan-hering * (+167) 21:24:18 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53033&oldid=53032 * Stefan-hering * (-48) 21:25:08 bye 21:25:12 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:35:44 mroman: great, now I'm wondering what the implementation limit of the number of users in a channel in ircd-seven is 21:36:05 int-e: I don't think there's a strict limit for that. 21:36:16 (how else would an IRC channel be "full"?) 21:37:04 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:38:38 int-e: but in practice the biggest legitimate channels in freenode top out below 2000 joined, and those are moderated the most quickly so there won't be much flood on them, so I don't think any individual big channel would cause a problem 21:39:07 especially because those less than 2000 nicks will be distributed decently around the more than 10 servers 21:46:49 int-e: If configured with --enable-small-net, 256; otherwise 32768. 21:48:04 Assuming MEMBER_HEAP_SIZE measures that. It might be something else. But the BAN_HEAP_SIZE sounded reasonable for a banlist size limit. 21:49:09 Never mind. Apparently that's not the limit, that's just the allocation block size. 21:49:55 fizzie: you could ask #freenode if you want to know for sure. they're usually helpful about these sorts of IRC software questions, as long as it's software used on freenode 21:50:05 I mean server and services software 21:50:07 I like digging into code more. 21:50:15 sure, that's fine too 21:50:29 I've done it myself a few times, but usually I just ask #freenode 21:50:37 (or TIAS for things where that's possible) 21:51:09 (but I can't really test for what inter-server race conditions are possible, especially not ones that require a netsplit at the right time) 21:54:06 No explicit limit in the same place (conf_channel_table) the ban list is configured, so maybe there isn't a limit. Anyway, it's kind of implicitly limited by the number of clients of the network. 21:55:32 (nor can I easily check for what the longest possible hostname is, so I just had to ask that) 21:55:46 (I'm not going to set up reverse DNS entries for that) 21:56:29 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:15:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:16:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:23:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:25:44 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:33:17 Hm. The wiki's started being intermittently slow again, at least according to the graphs. (It was surprisingly snappy for a while after the CaC downtime.) 22:34:58 https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-response-time.png 22:35:48 is that what'sitcalled 22:35:59 It looks like it's not just the wiki but everything? 22:36:04 shachaf: so what do you think of my TCG rules so far? 22:36:05 What's overall? 22:36:37 ais523: I read them but it's hard to see how some of the rules would play out without examples. 22:36:43 shachaf: right 22:36:52 Of course those are a lot more work. 22:36:55 I have a general idea in mind but still don't have the details pinned far enough down that I can make examples 22:37:03 it may be that some of the rules would have to change 22:37:07 It sounds like this game is meant to be played both printed and on the computer? 22:37:13 ais523: well sure, it's clearly not final 22:37:17 shachaf: yes 22:37:59 There are a lot of design choices that you can only realistically make in software. 22:38:41 right 22:38:55 yeah, that's a good question. what are the edge conditions you're designing for? a collectible/trading card game (as in, players can buy cards and choose which ones to put in their decks, but the game tries to be such that you won't have a linearly more powerful deck by just buying more powerful cards), two players making separate decks from their 22:38:55 collection or draft independently, 22:39:06 one of the design choices was to have status and current health as the only tracked values needed to explain the gamestate 22:39:30 (this is the reason that "overhealing" increases combat damage, as that's a common sort of semipermanent change to want to make) 22:39:34 ais523: also is it supposed to be playable with just the paper cards and not much other tools, esp. no computer, 22:39:37 I'm not sure about "what'sitcalled", but sure, yes, it's generally slow. Though a lot of the non-"wiki" things are still wiki-related, that's just filtering to actual MediaWiki page loads. 22:39:48 grafana 22:39:51 wob_jonas: yes, it's meant to be playable with just cards and counters for current health 22:39:56 It's grafana, yes. 22:40:04 it's also meant to be much simpler than M:tG UI-wise on a computer 22:40:21 Priority is pretty tricky to implement well on a computer, I imagine. 22:40:37 right, priority here passes much less often than M:tG 22:40:47 it's pretty much entirely "do you want to respond to this?" 22:40:57 ais523: I don't really see why this would be much simpler UI-wise than M:tG, but obviously it depends on the details like what cards you have 22:41:14 and only one person having priority at any given time means that there's no arguments over who plays a card "first" 22:41:40 wob_jonas: think about one player going to combat in M:tG, when the other player has an instant in their hand that they can play 22:42:01 explaining how that works even in M:tG in paper is complicated, and in fact there had to be a rules change recently due to people exploiting the nature of the priority passing rules 22:42:15 and on a computer, you either have to click OK a lot of times or configure "always yield" settings for the various parts of combat 22:42:59 What rules change? 22:43:36 shachaf: IIRC it was a change to exactly what happened if someone said "go to combat" 22:43:54 ais523: that's because the current UI sucks. you could have a better UI that allowed you to continue specifying your actions assuming the other players use the default until either (a) you deliberately want to wait for other players to confirm they do the default to avoid revealing info or (b) the game would have to reveal you some info that you do 22:43:54 n't already know, eg. drawing a card. 22:44:18 ais523: if you play the game that way, which is sort of similar to what happens when you play on paper, then there's much less messing with priority. 22:44:38 if the other player decides to not do just the default actions, then the game rolls back to the point where he first doesn't do the default actions. 22:45:10 this is implementable by computer, and I think it would be easier to use and learn for the players than the current system. 22:45:29 shachaf: see a) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/24/policy-changes-for-amonkhet/ (from "Communication" onwards), b) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/27/how-to-think-about-the-new-combat-shortcut/ 22:45:36 (it still only works if you have no more lag than earth-mooon sized ones between the players) 22:45:40 -!- augur has joined. 22:45:45 wob_jonas: you might want to see those too 22:45:59 I think I've heard of them, but let me check them 22:46:03 it's really good evidence of quite how complicated M:tG gets in corner cases to stop people pulling priority scams on each other 22:47:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:51:00 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:56:19 hmm, that second article I linked seems to think there's a card named "Grizzly Bear" 22:56:59 ais: no, it seems to think "Grizzly Bear" is a reasonable shortcut to name a creature 22:57:25 I guess 22:57:34 which it is I think, although it's sort of moot because that card is more an example there than a real card used in tournament 22:57:41 but in that case "attack with grizzly bears" is ambiguous as it's implied that there are two of them, so are you attacking with one or both? 22:57:57 although I guess that it'd be obvious if they didn't have vigilance 22:58:02 I use such simple well-known cards as examples in rules questions too, even though I don't actually play Grizzly Bears in my decks (I do have that card in my collection) 22:58:44 I think I own one as well? but it isn't a very good card 22:59:20 I own Flashcoat Bears which is practically always better, unless you have Petroglyphs 22:59:25 no wait 22:59:30 it's called Ashcoat Bears 22:59:35 `card-by-name Ashcoat Bears 22:59:38 No output. 22:59:40 `card-by-name Ashcoat Bear 22:59:41 Ashcoat Bear \ 1G \ Creature -- Bear \ 2/2 \ Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.) \ TSP-C 22:59:45 that then 23:00:13 and I don't even play that one 23:00:45 But everyone knows about that card, which is why it's great for rules examples 23:01:10 `card-by-name kalonian tusker 23:01:11 Kalonian Tusker \ GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ M14-U 23:01:20 still not all that good, but better in a green deck 23:02:37 I'm busy looking through all the 3/3s for 2 23:02:48 smuggler's copter is probably the best (and indeed, got banned in standard) 23:02:53 `card-by-name smuggler's copter 23:02:54 Smuggler's Copter \ 2 \ Artifact -- Vehicle \ 3/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Smuggler's Copter attacks or blocks, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card. \ Crew 1 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total power 1 or more: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.) \ KLD-R 23:03:20 the drawback turned out not to be nearly large enough 23:05:06 yeah, but that one is relatively new. If you have the double green mana, back in my days Elvish Warrior or Simic Guildmage were the most decent choices, then later we got Garruk's Companion. 23:05:28 If you want only one colored mana, there's also Stonewood Invoker and later Woodland Changeling which are slightly better than the bears. 23:05:54 the guildmage cycle is one of the things that started jading me to Magic 23:05:56 (Simic Guildmage and Stonewood Invoker and Woodland Changeling are elves) 23:06:12 I thought "a 2/2 with no drawbacks for {R/B}{R/B} is bigger than those colours normally get" 23:09:07 it was at that time. these days we at least have 2/2 with no drawbacks for RR 23:09:47 And Black Knight always existed, and was printed in large numbers, but I don't think there were many other choices for a 2/2 for BB with no drawbacks 23:10:30 (before Kamigawa) 23:11:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:12:09 `card-by-name ash zealot 23:12:10 Ash Zealot \ RR \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 2/2 \ First strike, haste \ Whenever a player casts a spell from a graveyard, Ash Zealot deals 3 damage to that player. \ RTR-R 23:12:11 ais523: Oh, not a game rules change. 23:12:20 shachaf: tournament rules change 23:12:52 ais523: that one does have a drawback of course 23:12:56 OK, technically speaking ash zealot has a drawback? but it's hardly ever going to come up (especially if you build a deck accordingly 23:13:01 ) 23:13:04 yeah 23:13:32 -!- erkin has joined. 23:18:18 but Ash Zealot is much newer 23:18:32 it's from RTR, that's lots of years later than ravnica with the guildmages 23:21:14 ais523: ok, maybe you're sort of right and something like those rules might avoid some of the priority shenanigans. but of course the cost is that you don't yet have twenty years of history you have to be compatible with, or even twenty years of carefully designed future cards with enough new thing each year to keep players interested. 23:21:43 but yes, some of the priority problems may have been avoided by designing against them from the start. 23:21:54 still, I don't think it's that big of a difference. 23:24:31 wob_jonas: I believe this sort of the priority problem is the #1 reason that online Magic isn't more popular 23:28:06 ais523: is it? I thought it was mostly because people don't want to buy both paper cards and online cards, and paper is the obvious choice 23:29:11 I imagine a few years into the future cards would have unique identifiers printed on it (unique per copy) so you can easily load them into your online account, but even that solves only half of the problem. 23:29:15 wob_jonas: compare Hearthstone to Duels of the Planeswalkers 23:30:38 ais523: M:tG is old. it started when online wasn't really possible yet. so the first people started in paper, and most people start playing with their friends, and so matching their friends' choice of paper vs online. 23:31:13 ais523: Hearthstone started in 2014 and was designed as an online game in first place 23:31:17 wob_jonas: also the original rules weren't very thought out 23:31:29 a lot of progress has been made at trying to tame the chaos 23:31:33 sure 23:31:38 that's definitely true 23:31:50 M:tG is the most popular TCG only because it was the first one 23:32:00 and I'm not even sure it's still the most popular 23:32:15 but it probably is 23:32:16 it probably is? 23:32:22 it's apparently had a lot of growth recently 23:32:28 despite doing its best to drive away all the existing players 23:32:48 from BFZ to Amonkhet, they appear to have had no idea how to balance the game 23:33:02 and had to make emergency changes to their internal processes in an attempt to bring things back under control 23:33:12 I haven't played any of those sets. 23:33:25 Has it gotten much worse than before? 23:33:40 there was the famous incident a while back when they declared (on the banned and restricted announcement day) that they weren't banning a card, then had to emergency ban it a few days later 23:34:20 shachaf: we've had four Standard bans over the last year or so (Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, (Emrakul, the Promised End), Felidar Guardian) 23:34:34 Magic hardly ever bans cards from Standard, when they do it's normally a sign that they really screwed up 23:34:54 as it's a) a pretty small format, making it easier to catch problems in it, b) one of the two main formats they focus on when balancing 23:35:03 BFZ block additionally managed to break Modern 23:35:06 and lead to bans there, too 23:37:40 wob_jonas: anyway, many M:tG interface problems are a consequence of the way rules changed over time 23:37:47 originally you had to float mana before playing spells, which is simple enough 23:37:59 but people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell, so the rules changed to let you generate mana then too 23:38:12 and now we have a situation where floating mana exists but is rarely used, and spells have two sequences for playing them 23:38:25 it'd have been a lot neater to just not have a mana pool from the start, but it's too late to change now 23:38:53 hmm 23:39:36 yes, I can sort of see why that would complicate the interface 23:44:37 ais523: whoa, what? 23:44:55 shachaf: what's unclear? 23:44:56 When I learned the rules of the game in 2013, I thought you always had to use mana from your pool to cast spell. It seemed simple enough. 23:45:04 shachaf: that hasn't been true for ages 23:45:24 Eventually I learned that you can announce the spell first, and then activate mana abilities to pay for it. 23:45:38 And that there are all sorts of complexities there. 23:45:48 But now you say that originally it worked the way I thought? 23:46:14 Why did they ever change it? That's such a straightforward way to handle it. 23:46:16 shachaf: in early Magic, yes 23:46:21 and because people kept doing it wrong 23:46:30 "people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell" -- that's definitely not an excuse. 23:46:44 the Magic designers/developers/rules team seem to think that it's better to change the rules to allow for human nature, than to try to fight it 23:46:47 You can just say that it's a shortcut or whatever you want that has the same effect. No need to make a big rules change for it. 23:46:53 shachaf: the mana is in the pool, but during the process of casting a spell or activating the ability, you get a chance to activate mana abilities (with a few rare exceptions) if the spell or ability needs mana payment 23:47:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:47:07 wob_jonas: Yes, I know how it works now. 23:47:23 shachaf: another big reason is cards that let people make payments unexpectedly 23:47:30 `card-by-name rhystic study 23:47:30 Rhystic Study \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}. \ PR-C 23:47:37 err, not thato ne 23:47:43 but the rhystic cycle generally 23:48:01 ais523: also when they added that rule, it didn't make the rules too complicated, because a few actions demanded mana payment by a player other than the one who plays the ability, those existed ages ago, and they already had to support activating mana abilities to pay mana. 23:48:02 "opponents can pay {1} or something good happens to you" is way more powerful if the opponent had to keep {1} floating all the time 23:48:11 under the current rules, they can just generate the {1} on the spot 23:48:21 ah, ais was faster 23:48:23 A better reason would be that there are various non-mana payments that you make as you announce the spell/ability, and that there's no reason for mana to be different. 23:50:04 shachaf: that doesn't sound like a good reason to me. you'd still make the mana payments during announcing the spell or ability, only now you can also activate most mana abilities (which generate most of your mana) at that time 23:50:23 I kind of like that one interaction that these rules make possible. 23:50:46 E.g. 23:50:49 `card-by-name wall of roots 23:50:50 Wall of Roots \ 1G \ Creature -- Plant Wall \ 0/5 \ Defender \ Put a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots: Add {G} to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn. \ MI-C, TSP-S, ARC-C 23:51:35 If you had a spell that costs {G} and as an additional cost requires you to sacrifice a creature, and you have a Wall of Roots with four -0/-1 counters on it, you could use it to pay for the spell. 23:51:51 this is arguably a problem for the learnability of Magic 23:52:01 ugh no. it generates lots of really ugly interactions, mostly because you can do heavy effects like moving cards between zones for the cost of a mana ability, and that can in turn immediately generate even heavier effects, including players leaving the game. it's totally rare, but shouldn't be possible. 23:52:06 as many such tricks work and many such tricks don't and it can need an intricate knowledge of the rules to work out which is which 23:52:38 wob_jonas: you're reminding me of the tricks you can use in multiplayer games to pick on players via conceding at specific moments 23:52:46 I think the idea that a player can lose immediately, rather than only the next time state-based effects are checked, is a bad idea, complicates multiplayer rules a whole lot 23:52:58 ais523: yes, but it can happen without conceding 23:53:03 rarely, but it can 23:53:05 some playgroups actually have a house rule that you have to wait until the stack is empty before conceding, in order to prevent that happening 23:53:19 from indirect effects by a mana ability 23:53:19 wob_jonas: I assume this involves replacement effects? things like paying your last point of life aren't fast enough 23:53:43 ais523: uh, I don't quite remember. 23:53:50 maybe I'm just stupid here and conceding is the only way 23:54:24 but even then, without players losing, there are rules patching around the problem that activating mana abilities may require you to reveal new information like drawing a card. those information are hidden because of extra rules. 23:54:32 to preserve rollbackability 23:55:21 `card-by-name lich 23:55:22 Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ As Lich enters the battlefield, you lose life equal to your life total. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many nontoken permanents. If you can't, you lose the game. \ When Lich is put into a graveyard 23:55:29 oh, that's a triggered ability 23:55:36 I think there's a card like that where it's a replacement ability 23:55:40 (the other problem is of course that stupid Wurm.) 23:55:41 so it lets the game loss happen at mana ability speed 23:55:45 `card-by-name nefarious lich 23:55:46 Nefarious Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ If damage would be dealt to you, exile that many cards from your graveyard instead. If you can't, you lose the game. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game. \ OD-R 23:55:54 right, that's a replacement ability 23:56:15 ah yes, the original lich too 23:56:22 although I'm not sure offhand that you can deal damage at mana ability speed 23:56:26 original lich is triggered 23:56:26 no wait, not the original one 23:57:12 `card-by-name Adarkar Wastes 23:57:13 Adarkar Wastes \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to you. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R 23:58:16 oh, I thought that cycle went via a trigger somehow 23:58:21 but it doesn't, so that works I think 23:58:25 that's the more popular title, the shocklands 23:59:04 `card-by-name Watery Grave 23:59:05 Watery Grave \ Land -- Island Swamp \ ({T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool.) \ As Watery Grave enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Watery Grave enters the battlefield tapped. \ RAV-R, GTC-R, EXP-M 23:59:19 wob_jonas: I came across the painlands first 23:59:23 and it makes you pay life, which won't kill you 23:59:29 but misremembered them as working like city of brass 23:59:47 (which would be very awkward wording, so I'm not surprised they don't!) 23:59:51 `card-by-name city of brass 23:59:51 City of Brass \ Land \ Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ AN-U, CH-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MMA-R, ME4-R 23:59:52 ais523: yes, the shocklands are in ravnica, and they're so popular because they have basic land types, and there are search lands searching for lands with basic land types 2017-09-05: 00:00:09 I know why the shocklands are good 00:00:53 whereas I started playing when Dissension was already out, which is why I don't notice that those weren't first 00:01:12 sure, I do have some idea about earlier sets, but often forget 00:01:15 I started playing with 9th edition 00:01:19 and stopped early into lorwyn 00:01:49 (i.e. 9th, ravnica block, coldsnap, time spiral block, 10th, and a bit of lorwyn) 00:03:04 (I know it was Dissension, not just Guildpact, because the person who introduced me brought Sky Hussar. I have seen people play M:tG before, but I haven't played.) 00:03:36 dissension is an odd place to start, really 00:03:59 one "problem" with the original ravnica block is that it only really makes sense as a combined entity, rather than being playable set-by-set 00:04:07 although dragon's maze is even worse in that respect 00:04:18 Coldsnap may have been out, but only very recently, so I have only seen cards from it a month or two later when I bought my first cards, which was the Coldsnap black-blue theme deck. 00:04:33 it did have one of the most intriguing names ever, though, people were asking for dragon's maze spoilers during rtr, rather than asking for the next set as usual 00:04:43 In retrospect, the black-blue Coldsnap theme deck is a bad one as a beginner product, but obviously I didn't know that. 00:04:51 also I don't hate Coldsnap as much as most people do 00:05:31 ais523: I don't hate Coldsnap, I'm just saying it was not good as a first set of cards to buy. 00:05:42 It's fine to buy later. 00:06:10 But at this point it doesn't matter. 00:06:12 I think people don't like it because it sucked to draft 00:06:27 although people are bad at figuring out what draft environments are good until Wizards has already stopped supporting them 00:06:30 I have so many cards that one theme deck doesn't matter. 00:06:56 this is probably what lead to the balance issues, Wizards deciding that trying to balance the sets carefully was a waste of money because they move onto the next set anyway before it's figured out 00:07:08 "supporting" as in you can no longer buy boxes cheap, or only that they are no longer played much in tournaments? 00:07:21 they both happen around the same time, probably not coincidentally 00:07:54 but when I first started playing Magic, I was under the impression that the game had been continuously refined and optimized over time and would always stay much the same 00:07:55 wait, it lead to the balance issues which time? I don't think that's happened the last time. It may have happened back ten years ago. 00:08:09 seeing the name "ninth edition" made me think "ooh, this has had a lot of work put into it" 00:08:29 but it turns out it's actually a game where they randomly change things every few months to keep it fresh, whether the old things worked or not 00:08:29 hehe... yes, that's a bit misleading because the second edition is exactly the same as the first 00:09:09 beta and unlimited? 00:09:24 it starts ABUR4 so I assume alpha and beta are collectively the first edition 00:09:28 but then, core sets from ninth to M12 did have a lot of good work put into refining it, perhaps more so then the block expansions 00:09:33 -!- imode has joined. 00:09:41 yes, AB are collectively the first edition 00:10:00 it's silly but they won't change the numbers now 00:10:07 wob_jonas: well tenth was definitely an attempt to mix things up 00:10:09 because the numbers are printed on the core sets from fifth to tenth 00:10:11 `card-by-name lightning bolt 00:10:12 Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, MED-C, PD2-C 00:10:27 wait, it was in M10 /and/ M11? I can't be reading that correctly 00:10:34 nope that's right 00:10:38 tenth was garbage though 00:10:40 wow 00:10:42 yes, and it wasn't tenth 00:10:51 M10 was when they shook things up 00:11:01 one problem with numerical core sets is that it's hard to remember which ones are which 00:11:04 I like tenth, but mostly because of nostalgy. M10 might actually be a better set, even with all the new cards. 00:11:15 tenth was the core set before M10 00:11:25 right, I know it went tenth, M10 00:12:26 -!- FjordPrefect has joined. 00:13:12 what I don't like about the current direction magic is heading to is that they keep making changes that amount to printing more and more distinct cards per year. this started at approximately coldsnap or tenth edition. they always give very nice sugar-coated explanations of why the particular change is good, but the gross number of new cards per ye 00:13:12 ar always keeps going up, almost never down. 00:13:41 and some of the explanations are even kind of mutually contradictory. 00:14:45 it's like that time many years ago when they first raised bus prices to encourage people to travel by train which is cheaper to run, then later they raised train prizes to harmonize mass transport prizes and not disadvantage people who live in places with no train. 00:15:50 (this was before the time when they raised the prices of trains that stop at fewer stations, but basically every train stops at fewer stations, so you don't have a real choice. that one was much more obvious because they did it in a single step.) 00:16:03 a while back in Birmingham, the bus and train companies went through a phase of repeatedly undercutting each other by 10p 00:16:06 alas, it couldn't last 00:16:42 this is between cities, not within Budapest, in case that's not clear 00:17:23 intercity train travel in the UK is very expensive except when it's randomly much cheaper 00:17:41 coach travel can be very reasonable but it's slower 00:18:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:19:16 it's always expensive in Sweden, but there are surprising price differences between different types of trains and buses on the same line, depending on at least whether you forfeit your right to refund your ticket, and whether the price for reservations increases dynamically by time like with international airplane tickets. both of those categories 00:19:16 don't exist here. 00:19:48 there's also a difference between trains where you need a seat reservation versus no, which is a distinction that exists in Hungary but very often you only have one of those choices 00:19:51 most train lines in the UK have four price categories: anytime, off-peak, super off-peak, advance 00:20:13 having a reservation is orthogonal to this (although it'd be unusual to get an advance ticket without a reservation) 00:20:15 this is partly because south-Sweden is big and has multiple big cities and big airplanes, so there's a lot more train and bus travel than in Hungary 00:20:44 although, many train companies, when selling advance tickets, just give you a ticket saying you're guaranteed a seat but don't allocate any specific seat, to save the trouble of putting the "reserved" signs onto the seats 00:21:36 ais523: sure, even though you get a seat number, in practice seat reservations work that way on trains in Hungary too (and often in cinemas) 00:21:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:22:22 that is, most passengers and the controllers don't care about the seat numbers unless there's a dispute between passengers 00:23:45 this is unlike airplane tickets or theatre tickets, where people only swap places locally among nearby ones in the same row or when the airplane stewards ask, in theatres because they're more full (a movie is cheap to repeat multiple times for the cinema) and in airplanes partly because of security reasons the airlines insist 00:25:11 also for some reason many people seem to seem to consider different seats in an airplane to have different values, so much that some airlines even sell the right to choose your seat at an extra price and a varying price depending on the position, 00:25:45 seats with extra legroom fetch a premium usually 00:25:50 whereas on the trains where you can get a seat reservation, usually all seats are equivalent (this is sometimes not true for some trains with no reservation, because those are lower comfort) 00:26:49 alercah: yeah, but then I don't want extra legroom seat on airplanes because those are usually at the front row so you can't keep your luggage at your feet 00:27:11 the extra legroom is probably worth more on longer flights though, on which I rarely fly 00:27:50 on long bus trips, I'll certainly take the extra legroom any time, but that usually just manifests in the difference between a 40 seat bus versus a 50 or 63 seat bus, which you can't really change 00:29:34 in the UK, most long-distance trains have two tiers of seats 00:30:04 known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons, although the "third class" name typically isn't used nowadays (they have "first class" and "standard class" or "first class" and "not first class") 00:30:29 but the vast majority of people don't buy first class seats, as they often aren't much better, and when they are, they're often very expensive 00:30:32 sounds like a topic for #trains, y'all 00:30:42 and it's leading to something of a problem because of trains getting fully packed 00:30:50 wob_jonas: the exit row in particular is what I was thinking of 00:30:57 sometimes they have to open up the first class section, without first class advantages, to normal tickets 00:31:20 alercah: that has the same problem. no luggage at your feet because it obstructs the emergency exit. 00:31:38 ais523: yes, of course, but they don't sell that except for very expensively 00:31:42 that's usually been allowed when I've been on flights 00:31:46 wob_jonas: it depends on the route 00:32:18 most of the flights I've been on are cheap ones that don't even have first class seats (they do have middle class seats) 00:32:23 (well, some do) 00:33:48 wob_jonas: I picked a random off-peak train journey from Birmingham to London to compare, far enough in the future that Advance tickets are still cheap (also on a Saturday so that I don't run into peak time restrictions) 00:34:09 the class distinction on trains is totally meaningless too these days by the way. most trains only have second class, because people just don't buy first class tickets, so the company just uses originally first class carriages as second class. and the distinction between different trains is much bigger than the class distinction. 00:35:06 I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the distinction entirely a few years into the future, it's just that MÁV is a huge company with lots of bureaucracy plus is regulated heavily by the state because it's mostly a monopoly which means even more bureaucracy, so changes take a lot of time. 00:35:07 it costs £17 (London Midland) / £27 (Virgin) first class, or £6-£8 (London Midland) / £11-16 (Virgin) third class 00:35:17 that's on Advance tickets, which get more expensive the more of them have been bought 00:35:31 ais523: no, I'm saying this for trains in Hungary 00:35:38 let me check Chiltern 00:35:39 they can totally matter in other countries 00:35:43 wob_jonas: I'm just interested to compare 00:35:52 ais523: are those on the same train? 00:36:27 wob_jonas: same set of trains; Virgin and London Midland use similar routes, but London Midland's is less direct and therefore cheaper because it takes longer 00:36:30 different classes of trains are very real, although sometimes you have limited choices, but sometimes you do have a real choice, and the price difference may be zero or it may be bigger than the difference between first and second class. 00:36:57 Chiltern is charging £5.50 to £12 on trains during the same set of days 00:37:07 they have a notably different route but it's comparable to the other two 00:37:12 Make your own implementation of Magic: the Gathering in computer if you have a better idea. 00:37:32 after all, they all go from Birmingham to London, and normally you wouldn't vary the route based on where in London you ended up 00:37:42 as you'd probably have to make a journey within London anyway 00:37:51 ais523: are there ever three distinct classes of carriages on the same train? "third class" in Hungary is something from before I was born 00:37:58 but Chiltern doesn't even seem to have a first class 00:38:10 wob_jonas: no, basically what happened was that the government decided that trains were too expensive 00:38:20 so asked trains to introduce third class tickets (that were cheaper than the existing second class) 00:38:27 expensive to run or expensive to travel on? 00:38:32 and it wasn't long before second class had vanished altogether because first and third were just more sensible option 00:38:36 *options 00:38:37 ah 00:38:39 expesnive to travel on 00:38:41 so there's first and third class 00:39:00 makes sense 00:39:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:40:05 that £5.50 to London on Chiltern is crazy, though 00:40:25 admittedly it's in the middle of the day on a Saturday, in the heart of super off peak time, and it's booked like a month in advance 00:40:56 but I hadn't realised that prices that low were actually achievable except on adverts showing the lowest possible price because that's what adverts do 00:41:33 known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons <-- the first class gives you a better chance if the train hits an iceberg hth 00:41:56 oerjan: on many services, first class is at one end of the train, often the front 00:42:04 so it might give you lower chances in the case of a train hitting something 00:42:18 although london midland put first class in the middle of a middle carriage, normally 00:57:29 I think at least on quite a lot of companies, it's now just first class and "standard class". 00:57:51 ais523: now as for your game design draft, you don't allow payments of moving a card other than the one that has the mano written on it, right? 00:58:12 wob_jonas: wasn't planning to, at least to start with 00:58:41 it might be possible to find a nondisruptive way eventually, probably as long as the other card moved doesn't touch the tactics track; you'd probably have to ban the card from being manoeuvred itself 00:58:44 ais523: so moving other cards can only be an action, and there are no restrictions on how much they can move a card at the same priority, and you just ignore impossible actions, right? 00:58:53 wob_jonas: right 00:59:26 I didn't mention it, but the intention is that any action that can't be fully carried out is entirely ignored (also, health can go negative), but with multiple actions, it's possible for one to fail and others to succeed 00:59:27 "beyond their current health" is probalby a minor typo 00:59:34 err, probably 01:00:04 Virgin is one of those companies. ("Our WiFi is complimentary in First Class, and pay as you go in Standard Class, --") 01:00:28 what's missing to me from this document is listing manos that are common among a large class of cards (like all creatures, all lands, all spells, whatever) 01:00:55 also I don't quite understand how playing cards from your hand usually works. 01:02:01 it seems like they can't just go to the tactic from your hand, because then you couldn't distinguish between the card used from your hand or from the ready; but if they go directly to the busy or ready or attached, then how do you counterspell them? 01:02:08 [[ Trains in Great Britain provide a two-tier class structure, with the higher tier called "first class". The lower tier was re-branded from "third class" to "second class" by British Rail from 3 June 1956, and then to "standard class" from 11 May 1987. ]] 01:02:35 aha, so that's what happened 01:02:43 obviously you could have cards that are directly spent from your hand or something 01:02:52 but cards have to get to the bf somehow 01:03:11 wob_jonas: oh, the way it works is that most cards go from hand to tactic 1, but from play to attack / defend / tactic 2 01:03:22 at least, that's the plan 01:03:32 hmm 01:03:42 so they can go directly to tactic 1 even if attack is empty? 01:03:50 in some cases, the effect on being initially played is the same as the effect you get from an ability, so you could just "replay" it as a discount 01:04:06 and yes, the same physical slot on the board is used for tactic 1 (when there's no attack) and for defending (when there is an attack) 01:04:18 mostly so that 2 continues to have the same meaning, of a slot where you respond to your opponent's action 01:06:05 ah right, you even mention this as ""Deploy" is a very common manoeuvre name; it always includes "hand → tactics 1" and no positive resource usage, but the negative resource usages vary." 01:08:36 also "This might be able to do with an overspill" sounds odd to me, but maybe it's an Englishism 01:12:55 wob_jonas: "overspill" isn't actually a noun, I'm just using it as one 01:13:06 "with a consequence for overspilling" would be more correct 01:15:16 So can an enchantment add manos to the card it's attached to? Or is that forbidden? 01:18:47 (the ugly phrasing is because in M:tG, when you attach a Holy Strength enchantment to a Devoted Hero creature, then the Holy Strength is the "attached permanent" but the Devoted Hero is the "enchanted permanent" even though to attach something and to enchant something is sort of the same; and "equip" works the same as "enchant". the terminology is 01:18:47 confusing.) 01:19:14 (luckily most of the time in M:tG it's obvious what the words mean because the abilities make sense only for the aura or only for the creature.) 01:21:22 wob_jonas: grafting manoeuvres onto cards seems like a reasonable use of an aspect 01:21:52 ok 01:21:54 (also, writing that document made me much better at spelling "manoeuvre", it's not an easy word to spell) 01:22:13 yeah... although you could just choose a different word instead in that case 01:22:14 although I think it's spelled "manoeuver" in US English? not sure on that 01:22:55 anyway, it's late so goodbye, channel 01:23:29 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 01:23:31 night 01:32:50 @time ais523 01:32:52 Local time for ais523 is Tue Sep 5 01:32:51 2017 01:32:57 I'm on and off at the computer. 01:41:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:42:19 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:01:09 . o O ( just spell it "manøver" hth ) 02:04:07 surely ø̈ would be a better vowel there? 02:10:03 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 02:11:49 ais523: we don't use that in norwegian hth 02:36:18 -!- augur has joined. 02:43:55 ais523: I think the rule of your kind of game, to become more clear, to write the open-source computer program of it, possibly by the literate programming so that they same document can also be all of the same text, as well as the computer program codes. 02:45:15 zzo38: What I want, instead, is for card text to be written in a declarative programming language such that you can generate both behavior and readable English text from it. 02:45:27 I don't really care which word you use, but you should use words that you can write with ASCII and be understandable all of the card, even if you may use some non-ASCII characters in their document they should not be require 02:45:55 I think requiring ø is OK. 02:46:16 shachaf: That is another idea yes, and I have thought about that too. Although, I was talking about the rules rather than the cards. 02:46:58 Well, I'd prefer for most of the rules to be implemented in the same programming language as the cards. 02:47:01 But about requiring a slashed "o", well, I think that is not even the correct spelling anyways, so it does not make sense. And even if it is used in the word, it doesn't cause problem with ASCII-only communications anyways. 02:47:27 Only a small core language needs to be part of the definition of the game itself. 02:47:37 And I don't care whether the core language is specified in English. 02:48:02 zzo38: ASCII-only communication is outdated 02:48:06 shachaf: At least in the case of Magic: the Gathering that does make sense, but for ais523's game it seem difference 02:48:08 It has gone the way of Gopherr. 02:48:29 Oh, I wasn't talking about either of those games, but a hypothetical game I haven't described. 02:48:37 shachaf: I like the idea of storing cards as AST and converting it to English and code 02:48:38 O, OK, then it works fine. 02:48:54 although the English should convert back to the AST too, otherwise people wouldn't know what a card did by looking at it 02:49:14 ais523: Ideally the language describing card behavior would be simple enough that people could also read it directly. 02:49:17 @metar KAFF 02:49:17 KAFF 050058Z AUTO 33015G23KT 8SM CLR 24/03 A3029 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/22 SLP178 T02390030 $ 02:49:31 But it would be good if there was a canonical translation back and forth to English. 02:49:32 ais523: Actually that idea I have thought of even for use with Magic: the Gathering too (but not the second part about back conversion, which would make the text a bit messy I think) 02:49:34 8? I dispute that claim; that is too high. 02:49:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:49:40 @metar KOAK 02:49:40 KOAK 050053Z 34006KT 9SM BKN140 BKN200 26/19 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP105 T02560189 02:49:46 shachaf: perhaps it should be a subset of English? 02:49:54 ais523: Sure, just like Magic: The Gathering 02:49:54 The air would be nicer if it was breathable. 02:49:57 M:tG is sort-of like a "programming language that's a subset of English" already 02:50:01 but not that well specified 02:50:07 ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all. 02:50:19 In fact people have to reverse-engineer card behavior sometimes. 02:50:20 hearthstone is trying to deal with screen size problems 02:50:30 that's part of the reason why aspects, manoeuvres, actions all have names 02:50:36 so that on a small screen, you can display just the name 02:50:54 and people know what the names do most of the time, or if they don't, there'd be some way to look up the corresponding action 02:50:55 That 8 mile visibility is from smoke. 02:51:04 ais523: MtG card language is fairly well-specified, but it can also say whatever it wants. 02:51:30 shachaf: Yes, mostly it is well specified enough. Not quite, though. 02:51:50 shachaf: I'd argue that it's very poorly specified, although rigid 02:51:50 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:52:00 there isn't even a grammar, unless you count Alex Churchill's 02:52:01 And, "almost" isn't good enough. 02:52:03 which is unofficial 02:52:14 ais523: I like using keywords and short descriptive words in card names. 02:52:29 But I kind of wish those were part of a "standard library", separate from the core game rules. 02:52:33 actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person 02:52:40 Yes, I liked that. 02:53:25 Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down. 02:54:01 gain hug until end of turn 02:54:01 ais523: Yes I like that too, although it isn't only you who did that; someone else too has described a game they were making, with the same thing, to me. 02:56:48 My ideas for AST for Magic: the Gathering is one example can be: [:counter [:target :spell]] or [:counter [:target [:and [:not :black], :spell]]] and it can use precise rules (written in open-source computer code) to describe the exact conversion and meaning. 02:58:17 ("Counter" in Magic: the Gathering has another meaning too, which refers to a one-shot property, although in this AST the two kind of "counter" are two different words.) 02:58:42 zzo38: I think RoboRosewater uses "unspell" internally? 03:00:32 OK, maybe, and yes that will work too. (Or maybe it uses "uncast"; I don't know, but that works too) 03:00:37 zzo38: Do you like the chain rule? 03:01:18 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:02:22 zzo38: text editing doesn't require an AST 03:02:31 It just requires S 03:02:55 oh wait 03:03:07 I forgot that it refers to types 03:03:09 so yeah it does 03:03:15 nvm 03:03:34 What chain rule and what about chain rule? 03:03:46 The derivative one. 03:04:55 O, yes, OK 03:05:57 the chain rule makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas 03:05:58 The chain rule makes a lot more sense when you add types. 03:06:03 It's the only thing that type-checks. 03:06:13 ais523: How do you mean? 03:06:23 shachaf: there's two ways to write it 03:06:33 dy/dx = dy/du × du/dx is the one I'm thinking of 03:06:58 the other version is less symmetrical, shorter, and comes to the same thing 03:07:01 That's the best way to write it, though I haven't figured out quite what it means. 03:07:26 shachaf: basically, y is a function of x, but can also be written as a function of u, where u is a function of x 03:07:32 Yes, I know that much. 03:07:47 so you can differentiate y with respect to u, because y is a function of u 03:07:49 I like Leibniz notation a lot. But I don't really know how to formalize it. 03:07:58 and you can differentiate u with respect to x, obviously 03:08:36 Hmm, do people often write things like "d(x^3)/d(x^2)"? 03:08:37 for a silly example, let's say y=u², u=sin x; then we have dy/du=2u, du/dx = cos x 03:08:58 then we just multiply them together and get 2u cos x = 2(sin x) cos x 03:09:08 which is dy/dx in this case 03:09:11 Yes, I know that. 03:09:40 the notation only works if you have one specific independent variable identified (in this case, x) 03:10:04 d(x³)/d(x²) is meaningful if you treat x as the variable in question (it's d(x³)/dx ÷ d(x²)/dx) 03:10:35 I think it works in some other cases as well. 03:10:48 and the way to think about dy (where y isn't your independent variable) is that it means "the value of y when x has a slightly higher value, minus the value of y right now" 03:11:04 (where the "slightly higher value" would be x+dx) 03:11:37 in the case where the derivative isn't continuous, "slightly higher" and "slightly lower" may give different results, but that's a case that's typically ignored at lower levels of maths 03:12:03 anyway, the point is that you take limits, so you take the limit of the derivative as dx shrinks to 0 03:12:22 You know the thing people do -- I think we've talked about this before -- where they have "x^2 + y^2 = 1", and then "2 x dx + 2 y dy = 0", and then "dy/dx = -x/y"? 03:12:29 but clearly, you have dy/du×du/dx=dy/dx while dx is positive, so you wouldn't expect it to change in the limit 03:12:50 shachaf: yes, there are a bunch of rules for whether that's safe to do, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them written down 03:12:52 It's true that you can parameterize x and y in terms of some other variable, but it doesn't matter which one you use. 03:13:10 in this case, I'd probably define x = cos t and y = sin t 03:13:51 but the point is that the exact parameterization can matter, especially when multiple x correspond to a single y 03:13:54 or vice versa 03:14:19 Can it? 03:14:22 What's an example where it matters? 03:14:48 Anyway, I was thinking of the chain rule in multidimensional cases, since the single-dimensional version loses some important content. 03:15:02 basically, think of x²+y²=1 as a curve (in this case, a circle); in order to calculate things like dy/dx, you have to imagine a point moving along that circle, and dy/dx becomes the ratio of its y velocity to its x velocity 03:15:03 (dy/du * du/dx is really composition of linear maps, or multiplication of matrices; it's not commutative) 03:15:22 obviously, it doesn't matter how fast it's moving (as long as it has nonzero speed) in the case of the circle 03:15:31 but if you can imagine a more complex curve, say one that crosses itself 03:15:49 the speed of the point is going to depend on which path it takes 03:16:03 So you're parameterizing everything in terms of time to make it work. 03:16:09 a really degenerate example where the theory breaks down is 0xy=0 03:16:17 you can find the derivative at any point to be anything there 03:16:51 and sure, dividing by 0 is normally cheating, but you need a rigid set of rules to make sure you aren't doing it in any given case 03:17:13 One thing you can say is, the curve is defined by the zero set of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1 03:17:23 yep 03:17:40 I think this sort of derivative shenanigans only works at points on the curve which have a unique tangent 03:17:41 And the derivative is defined by the zero set of Df(x,y)(dx,dy) = 2x dx + 2y dy 03:17:53 Or rather the derivative at each point 03:17:59 and even then, you do have to uniquely define the point (which may involve specifying both x /and/ y, or using a third variable to parameterize) 03:18:16 I'm quite happy using both x and y 03:18:46 For example, even for the half-circle sqrt(1-x^2), "-y/x" is much nicer than "-sqrt(1-x^2)/x" 03:19:05 And also it works for a circle of any radius. 03:19:37 right 03:19:53 Is easy what it mean, if you multiply dy/du by du/dx then the du are cancel out, it look like. 03:20:04 actually I think what typically goes wrong with this approach isn't necessarily in the dx/dy manipulation itself, but in trying to write x or y in terms of each other when it isn't unique 03:20:12 zzo38: It look like, but is it actually? 03:20:43 zzo38: right, the dx and dy symbols don't necessarily obey all the normal rules of mathematics, so you often have to prove any specific thing you can do with them separately 03:20:48 but in this case they do follow normal rules 03:22:00 ais523: I'd like them to be something other than symbols. 03:22:08 For example sometimes people define them to be differential forms. 03:22:13 @metar kcos 03:22:14 KCOS 050154Z 31008KT 4SM HZ OVC050 24/06 A3032 RMK AO2 SLP172 T02440056 03:22:17 :/ 03:22:23 But that doesn't really work that well with the typical uses of Leibniz notation, I think. 03:22:34 ais523: I have read that the notations like d^2x and dx^2 don't follow the rules in the common way, but that it is possible to use the notation to mean something else to make it work, but then the second derivative is written in a more complicated way (although it is still d(dy/dx)/dx) 03:26:16 (I have made the figuring out of d(dy/dx)/dx by myself and confirmed what Penrose mentioned.) 03:26:18 zzo38: I worked it out in this channel once. 03:26:57 d(dy/dx)/dx = d^2y/dx^2 + dy/dx d^2x/dx^2 03:27:55 I worked it out on paper once but forget now what it is 03:28:15 What I said is what you get if you parameterize x and y in terms of t 03:28:34 And then treat "d(...)" as meaning "the derivative of ... with respect to t" 03:31:57 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:39:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:16 -!- relrod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:04:51 -!- relrod has joined. 04:04:53 -!- relrod has quit (Changing host). 04:04:53 -!- relrod has joined. 04:05:22 relrod: helrod 04:14:38 shachaf: hello 04:14:45 my server just shat itself and I don't know why 04:15:10 load average went through the roof, but it wasn't a DDoS or anything (no spike in net traffic, nothing useful in logs) :/ 04:16:21 relrod: it's likely either a scheduled maintenance task that rarely runs, or a trojan/virus 04:16:38 you want something like top in order to see what's responsible for a high load average, not logs 04:16:52 or it could be a legitimate program that got stuck in an infinite loop for some reason 04:18:33 ais523: It's a Linux box, so I'd assume not trojan/virus. And I run the box... I haven't installed any new cronjobs recently or anything. 04:18:59 relrod: the most common malware on Linux is from people brute-forcing your password, then installing it manually when they learn what it is 04:19:00 So yeah it's likely a loop of some sort...but I was hoping something would have spit out something useful to a logfile 04:19:19 Linux boxes are much more valuable targets to hackers than Windows boxed because Linux is a much more powerful OS 04:19:26 Was there disk I/O? High memory usage? 04:19:28 but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top 04:19:29 ais523: Huh? 04:19:30 at 100% CPU usage 04:19:44 How is Linux more powerful? 04:20:01 ais523: I only root login with key auth. So if it were a password attempt, they'd also need to know my username, and the (non-standard) port I run sshd on. 04:20:07 shachaf: if you can run as root on Linux, it's fairly easy to do things like make a highly scalable spam cannon 04:20:09 in which case it would be a *very* targeted attack 04:20:20 only allow root login with key auth* 04:20:20 that's harder on Windows, which is further from the metal 04:20:27 How do you mean? 04:20:38 Why do you need metal to make a cannon? 04:21:30 shachaf: there was a spike in mem usage, but it didn't peak. https://elrod.me/collectd/bin/index.cgi?plugin=memory×pan=86400&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK 04:21:45 Linux is better for writing servers than home editions of Windows 04:22:05 23:19:28 < ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top 04:22:08 if I could've ssh'd into it, yes 04:22:11 I had to force a reboot 04:22:14 which have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers 04:22:20 I couldn't get into the box at all, on console or ssh 04:22:25 I don't know much about home editions of Windows. But I assume relrod's server isn't running that anyway. 04:23:03 Linux has system calls like sendfile(2) which are designed for highly efficient network operations, whereas IIRC Windows can't do more than 4 network connections at once unless you pay Microsoft money to increase the limit 04:23:47 relrod: kernel panic, perhaps? that would normally show in the logs, but sometimes it's something bad enough that the logs can't be saved to disk 04:23:54 relrod: you should give up and set up prometheus like fizzie did hth 04:24:00 although that can't be the case if the graphs were collected by a usermode process on the machine 04:24:10 ais523: well it was responding to pings (so net stack was still up), but that was about it. 04:24:19 -!- FjordPrefect has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9). 04:24:56 ais523: I'm thinking some process just went crazy 04:25:34 that shouldn't make it impossible to ssh in, and definitely shouldn't make it impossible to get in via the serial console 04:26:18 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53034&oldid=53023 * Dlosc * (+15) /* C */ Added Charcoal 04:26:49 ooh, is someone finally documenting Charcoal? 04:27:01 I figured out bits by reading the source, but it's still a really hard language to learn 04:27:18 [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53035&oldid=50903 * Dlosc * (+151) Added note about Charcoal contributions 04:27:38 How many people actually have Windows 10 S though? 04:27:50 10 S is the one with that limit, and it *also* has the limit you can only run Store apps. 04:28:02 pikhq: oh, I thought it applied to regular Windows * Home too 04:28:10 maybe that got removed at some point 04:29:06 ais523: I mean, if a process was hammering both cores, everything else would get queued up, waiting for CPU time, right? 04:29:36 which would explain SSH hanging, and the console not being able to throw me a login prompt 04:31:02 I think it might have been also in some of the "developing nations only" editions too. 04:31:40 Home omits some features, like Hyper-V, but doesn't have arbitrary limitations on the features it does have like that. 04:31:45 I think it depends though. I've had work servers that nagios-alerted with ~400 load average before that still let me ssh in and kill the process that went to shit. *shrug* 04:32:09 relrod: schedulers don't work like that, if a process is really hammering the CPUs, the kernel will make sure that other processes can get timeslices 04:32:23 now, if a process is really hammering the /disk/, that can give Linux trouble, for reasons I don't fully understand 04:33:49 pikhq: I looked it up, there's a limit of 10 or 20 (depending on edition) devices that can be connected to a single Windows machine, but that wording is vague and probably doesn't apply to all TCP connections 04:34:39 Oh, huh... 04:34:46 That's the limit on the *SMB server*. 04:35:10 right, looking around various discussions on this 04:35:24 Which, humorously, is trivial to work around now. 04:35:32 Use Samba in WSL. 04:35:40 I've gathered that a) that limit is related to SMB; b) inbound connections that don't use SMB or IIS are sometimes banned by license agreements but there's no technological block on them 04:36:15 pikhq: OK, that's brilliant 04:36:41 [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53036&oldid=53035 * Dlosc * (+66) 04:36:49 Which is provided on all versions of Windows that will run 64-bit Windows binaries. 04:37:05 (of up-to-date Windows 10, I should say) 04:39:32 -!- augur has joined. 04:40:56 ais523: your polyglot challenge is up to 127 now 04:41:23 oerjan: hmm, has it slowed down a bit then? 04:41:37 or have I just failed to track the typical rate of growth mentally? 04:41:59 any interesting new languages, or is it all just BF derivatives? 04:42:16 it seems to come in bursts, with several people posting shortly after each other, i assume they coordinate. 04:43:26 latest are: deltaplex, nhonhehr, gammaplex, C(clang), mycelium, monkeys, braincopter 04:43:42 *nhohnhehr 04:44:27 piet wasn't too long ago 04:44:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:46:42 [wiki] [[Brian and Chuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53037 * Dlosc * (+27) Redirected page to [[Brian & Chuck]] 04:47:17 and before that, they had a bunch of emoji languages 04:47:53 <\oren\> Hmm, I wonder how eso kOS is. Maybe it merits an wiki page? 04:48:12 I'm reading the latest additions now 04:57:32 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:00:47 -!- augur has joined. 05:02:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:05:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:17:20 -!- MDude has joined. 05:35:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:16:40 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:18:08 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Client Quit). 06:40:10 I have the book of Pitman shorthand (from 1971). But, can we to make up a new system of shorthand can be theatre shorthand? 06:43:03 The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much. [2] In addition to words, can also be record music. 06:52:51 Do you like this? 07:00:20 -!- augur has joined. 07:03:30 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:29:30 [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53038&oldid=53036 * Dlosc * (+137) 07:30:12 [wiki] [[User:Dlosc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53039&oldid=53038 * Dlosc * (+0) Alphabetized 07:46:17 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:47:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:51:18 -!- tromp has joined. 07:52:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 07:54:43 -!- augur has joined. 07:54:54 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:57:09 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 07:59:04 -!- Lymia has joined. 07:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:02:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:20:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:23 -!- augur has joined. 08:27:59 -!- tromp has joined. 08:27:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:34:14 -!- augur has joined. 08:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:41:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:45:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:05:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:05:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:23:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:59:45 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:11:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:18:36 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:25:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:28:20 " ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all." => um sure. M:tG text doesn't either. that's why we have a separate Comprehensive Rules and Oracle Text document, each hundreds of pages long. 10:28:43 The rules are so big you can't reasonably fit them on the front of the cards. 10:30:48 For almost all cards, the card text and general rules understanding describes the behavior precisely. 10:30:58 For some special cases where you need extra rulings, those are mostly to disambiguate. 10:31:27 " actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person" => why is that useful? couldn't it cause confusion because players also refer to themselves in first person when they describe an action. I'm not saying you should use full card names (or the part before comma) all the time, but M:tG also uses "this " in indirect rules text and "this" in reminder text. 10:32:34 In Hearthstone there are cards with effects like "summon a random creature token of type X", where you don't even know what tokens of type X there are and what abilities they have without trying it out. 10:32:42 Or something like that, I don't know the details. 10:33:08 " Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down." => no, I totally disagree with that. The text editing effects are very limited, they only care about mentions of mana symbols and color words and subtypes (land and creature) in the card text, which just requires a few simple parameters of those types rather than a full AST. 10:37:56 zzo38: in particular, I'm not really convinced that it would be worth to specify M:tG in some abstract domain specific language tailored to M:tG. It could work, but I think it might be better to use a good generic programming language for implementing the rules, and not have it automatically linked to the English version of the rules. 10:38:30 (The English Comp Rules and Oracle versus the computer-readable code version could be maintained together, or separately one following the other as they are now.) 10:41:15 b_jonas_: I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG 10:42:01 " the chain rule [in calculus] makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas" => it's easy to confuse yourself to think that the chain rule makes intuitive sense, but it's much harder to actually get an intuition that helps you figure out answers to more complicated applications, such as those involving multiple derivatives or more some crazier integral-fubini transforms 10:42:13 shachaf: same to you 10:42:51 also, there's like five different ways how people say the chain rule makes intuitive sense, and I've no idea how to connect those different intuitions. 10:43:35 sure, for simple problems, any of the intuitions work. 10:44:17 b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work. 10:44:42 If you say that for f : A -> B, Df : A -> (A -o B), where -o means a linear map 10:44:48 Then you just fit it all together 10:45:14 I guess some people would say something about the product of the Jacobian matrices or something. 10:45:51 -!- zseri has joined. 10:51:33 " [home editions of Windows] have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers" => and no good ports of C or C++ compiler toolkits or perl interpreters. it took some working on windows at my job to realize how REALLY TERRIBLE the C compiler situation is. 10:51:51 strawberry perl is pretty good 10:53:04 (if Rust ever takes over, it won't be because it's a better language or has a better compiler, even though both of those are true, but because they're doing a lot of extra work to make sure all the infrastructure works on windows. and this might be a factor of the popularity of python and other high-level languages over C++, though I'm not sure about that.) 10:53:55 seriously. NOBODY HAS A GOOD FREE SOFTWARE PORT OF ANY GOOD C COMPILER TOOLKIT FOR WINDOWS X86_64. There are tons of ports, but each of them suck. 10:56:41 The root problem isn't that your existing C or C++ programs aren't portable, because libraries are missing. That's just a consequence of having no good C compiler toolkits, which is why existing mostly portable C or C++ libraries already don't get ported, and it's hard to develop entirely new C or C++ programs too. 10:57:45 Even libraries that get ported to BSD and Hurd and IBM's non-ASCII systems and VMS all sorts of crazy systems don't have a windows port, because it's such a suffering to continuously maintain C code for windows. 10:58:12 That is good. 10:58:13 (Windows does have some other advantages for a user, I know.) 10:58:33 That makes good Programmers go away from Winblows. 😎 11:02:16 yes 11:03:29 " The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much." => people just use stenography (shorthand typewriters) for that, I think 11:05:04 " I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG" => ok 11:05:51 " b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work." => I don't think so. when you do third derivatives, you get small constant factors in your expressions that you can't figure out from just the types. 11:06:55 APic: good in what sense? it's not good for a programmer like me who has to suffer with stupid windows software because of this 11:07:22 Just stop working for a Company that forces You to use Windows? 11:07:54 APic: technically they only force me to develop products that will work on windows, but it's difficult either way 11:09:34 Life is generally not easy. ☺ 11:11:02 yeah 11:11:30 And: 11:11:34 All Generalizations are false. 😉 11:25:43 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 11:33:01 b_jonas_: Third derivatives? How do you mean? 11:42:42 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53040&oldid=53031 * Zseri * (+19) +new cast op equivalent 11:51:53 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 11:52:13 -!- sftp has joined. 12:01:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:17:39 -!- erkin has joined. 12:35:22 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53041&oldid=53040 * Zseri * (+250) Operator Compat Levels 12:48:23 -!- augur has joined. 12:53:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:03:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:11:54 shachaf: uh... let me look up the formulas online, I don't remember how they work. might involve some partial derivatives in multiple dimensions on a totally differentiable function where the symmetry of the order of derivatives causes the constants, or maybe something else was involved 13:12:12 shachaf: you already mentioned chain rule and second derivatives 13:12:17 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas. 13:13:26 shachaf: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule#Higher_derivatives and the constant factors of terms on the right hand side of equations 13:14:15 as always, it's possible that you or ais are already good at calculus and all that stuff is still intuitively obvious to you, and it's just me who has the problem 13:21:53 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53042&oldid=53041 * Zseri * (-30) improve formatting of operator tables 13:23:43 I still couldn't get used to some of this strange new interface in MS Word these days. So find and spellcheck aren't controlled by dialog boxes now, but instead by dockers. The main action buttons in those dialogs (find next, replace, replace all; skip, skip all, ignore, replace with selected word) do have underlined letters in them, 13:24:59 but it wasn't obvious to figure out how you actually press the button with those shortcuts. The answer is, you have to first F6 to the docker (clicking on a buttom with the mouse doesn't activate that docker), then press the letter without modifiers. 13:25:40 Alt+letter or alt+shift letter doesn't work even if that docker is selected, because it's not a dialog. Alt+letter will just activate the menu entry, which sort of makes sense, but alt+shift+letter doesn't seem to do anything, 13:26:25 which goes against what I learned in all word, in which macro debugging was controlled by such a persistently active non-modal "docker" (actually an extra toolbar thingy) with underlined buttons and you had to press alt+shift+letter for its buttons (because alt+letter clashed with the menu). 13:28:03 And I still think there's no way to figure out how the shit any of this keyboard contorl works from just the interface and help, unless you already have a lot of fucking experience-based intuition on how older more intuitive MS software works and try pressing a lot of random buttons (and make sure you have gigabytes of free RAM and make backups because trying random buttons has strange side effects). 13:32:15 And even if you do figure it out, the interface is sometimes unintuitive. Example: you can toggle the ribbon bar as always visible or hidden, have ribbon bars with functions that you commonly use together, only one ribbon bar is shown at any one time, and if a ribbon bar was visible and you activate a new one, the new one will stay visible. Good so far. 13:33:38 The buttons and other controls on ribon bars have the equivalent of menu shortcuts, these shortcuts are one or two letters, and they're per ribbon bar. Still good. The shortcuts within a ribbon bar are distinct form the shortcuts of different ribbon bars (top-level menu entries), which implies you get a lot of really strange and too long shortcuts, BUT 13:34:35 you can't just press alt plus the shortcut of a ribbon bar button, despite that it seems like you can, no, each time you have to press the shortcut of the ribbon bar (with alt or f10) and then the shortcut of the particular control, even if the ribbon bar is already fucking active and visible. 13:35:26 This is just one example of lots of basically good innovated design messed up by stupid small things like that. 13:36:41 (I also hate the Hungarian localized interface with a passion no matter when I use it, continuiously ever since those eixst. Just stop localizing any of the fucking interface to Hungarian.) 13:38:46 (But luckily these days it's easier to get software with the original English localized interface than it used to when you'd have Hungarian Winword on two floppies and that was it. I even looked up the magical incantations for telling Firefox to use the English interface. Its default is to use the default localization of Windows, and I did download the English language pack for Firefox, but even then it wouldn't automatically choose that.) 13:44:05 (sorry for all the rant) 13:56:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:07:45 Oh by the way, in case this is new to other people. Windows 10 does have a multiple virtual desktop thing built in, wherein you can group windows to multiple "virtual desktop" and quickly switch between desktop to show those windows and hide most others. In windows 7 you need extra software for that, although that might still be useful for windows 10 because of a better interface. 14:08:03 I hadn't known this before, because the feature is somewhat well hidden in the windows 10 interface. 14:16:02 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:16:58 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53043&oldid=53042 * Zseri * (+251) Computational class 14:32:21 -!- catern has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:33:59 -!- catern has joined. 14:34:16 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:42:37 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:44:50 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:56:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 15:04:15 -!- augur has joined. 15:07:05 -!- picoder_ has joined. 15:08:13 Hi, has anyone tried to optimize the graham scan by modifying the actual algorith? 15:09:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:22:09 -!- picoder_ has left. 15:30:33 -!- picoder_ has joined. 15:45:50 -!- fractal has changed nick to _fractal_. 15:59:04 -!- picoder_ has left. 16:08:05 [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53044&oldid=52875 * Zayne * (+38) /* Examples */ 16:13:28 [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53045&oldid=53044 * Zayne * (+123) 16:41:19 this session will be full... (will include ICFP contest ceremony...) 16:43:05 @tell oerjan please define "broken" 16:43:05 Consider it noted. 16:48:49 @tell oerjan in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how. 16:48:49 Consider it noted. 16:49:15 int-e: nice! will Endo be present? 16:49:20 * APic grins magically. 16:49:39 b_jonas: I don't know. 16:50:05 there's a couple of talks first 16:51:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:52:05 <\oren\> b_jonas: hmm, now I'm wondering how different countries compare, if you asked people there "do you prefer to use most software in English or in your native language?" 16:52:44 b_jonas: did Endo's planet even have trees and rivers? 16:55:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:55:49 <\oren\> i guess you'd have to somehow correct for differences in English knowledge between countries 16:59:20 <\oren\> but there might be a crossover point where a country's population knows enough english that they will prefer the English interface to a badly localized version 16:59:40 int-e: dunno, but I think there his transformed form has definitely affected a tree and river. 17:00:05 (recall that endo's DNS affects its environment more directly than ours) 17:04:09 b_jonas: I see. 17:32:20 b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, although it does not have to be one specific to M:tG, and might be usable with other kind of card games too. But it should be one close enough to be able to do alterable AST (whether it is an interpreter and alters it directly, or is compiled and figures out what it needs to compile in order to allow the alterations to be implemented to do t 17:33:12 Does this make sense? Or maybe I missed something 17:43:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:45:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:21:24 `olist 1096 18:21:25 olist 1096: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:41:29 -!- mroman has joined. 18:41:35 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biproportional_apportionment <- how the fuck can this work 18:41:38 if I have 6 seats 18:41:51 hm. no 18:41:59 if I have 2 seats to give 18:42:05 and I have the votes 200, 200, 200 18:42:18 how can there be a divisor such that the rounded sum yields 2? 18:42:25 either 200 / divisor is 0 or it is 0 18:42:31 meaning the sum of seats will either be 3 or 0 18:42:34 but it can never be 2? 18:48:54 -!- imode has joined. 18:52:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 18:52:45 I see we're a shrub now 19:09:25 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:20:42 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:23:22 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:28:04 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Raumaankidwai * New user account 19:29:26 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53046&oldid=53022 * Raumaankidwai * (+275) 19:45:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:51:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:57:54 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:06:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:08:39 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:12:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:14:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:18:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:18:47 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+5268) Created page with "'''Cubestate''' is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:Raumaankidwai]]. '''Cubestate''' (or '''cubestate''') programs are based on sequences of moves on Rubik's Cu..." 20:19:20 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53048&oldid=53047 * Raumaankidwai * (+6) 20:19:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:20:46 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53049&oldid=53048 * Raumaankidwai * (+202) 20:21:31 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: New kernel). 20:44:43 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:49:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:49:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 20:49:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:55:06 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53050&oldid=53049 * Zseri * (-254) improve formatting 20:55:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:59:31 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:34:35 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:38:06 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:58:39 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:06:10 -!- Mayoi has joined. 22:09:21 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:20:28 bye 22:20:31 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:31:49 zzo38: Do you like pumpernickel bread? 22:36:46 -!- Guest53736 has changed nick to moonythedwarf. 22:36:57 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Changing host). 22:36:57 -!- moonythedwarf has joined. 22:42:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:47:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:48:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:51:33 -!- augur has joined. 22:52:11 -!- BooK has joined. 22:53:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:03:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:04:37 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:06:04 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:06:04 -!- LKoen has quit (Client Quit). 23:06:07 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 23:32:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:34:12 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:51:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:51:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:52:53 @wii int-e 23:52:53 https://wiki.haskell.org/int-e_ 23:52:57 argh 23:53:19 @messages-loud 23:53:19 int-e said 7h 10m 13s ago: please define "broken" 23:53:19 int-e said 7h 4m 29s ago: in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how. 23:53:29 @hoogle a -> a 23:53:29 Prelude id :: a -> a 23:53:29 Data.Function id :: a -> a 23:53:29 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 23:55:18 @tell int-e Broken as in even @hoogle a -> a wasn't working yesterday. 23:55:18 Consider it noted. 23:55:37 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:56:04 fuck! is there some simple way to remove a rust stain from a cheap polypropilene box with rough surface? 23:56:19 dynamite hth 23:56:39 I stored a throwaway standalone scraper blade in it, and I didn't realize the blade was made from a non-rustproof iron 23:56:39 may also remove other things. 23:57:28 i'm sorry, my chemistry is rusty 23:58:31 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 2017-09-06: 00:02:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:08:02 at least I have found the rest of the pack of the same type of scrapers after some searching 00:12:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:17:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 00:20:31 " b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, [...] one close enough to be able to do alterable AST" => it does totally make sense, and it would probably work, and it's possible that it's the best way, but I think it's probably easier to not do that, and use a general purpose p 00:20:31 rogramming language and write the rules and cards in it. 00:26:17 Internet search says (besides various advertisment sites and answers to questions other than mine) try acidic cleaning agent. I'll try a mild one, it probably won't work, but won't hurt either. 00:26:37 Apart from that, just buy a new plastic box and throw this one away. 00:41:37 brilliant. the webpage says their phone number is “06 80 353 353 (06 40 FKF FKF)”. from context I think the first one is right, and the one in the parenthesis is a typo, but I'm not sure. 00:42:13 ah good, later on the same webpage it says “06 80 353 353 (06 80 FKF FKF)” so that's more votes on the first number 00:44:43 ah. actually both of those numbers are correct and ring at them. 00:47:34 great! organic acid cleaning agent did seem to help. I removed most of the dust. some remains, but I did expect that. 00:54:56 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 01:00:33 rust and polypropylene are sufficiently chemically different that you'd imagine some cleaning agent exists that can clean one from the other 01:06:19 @hoogle a -> a 01:06:20 Prelude id :: a -> a 01:06:20 Data.Function id :: a -> a 01:06:20 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 01:06:24 still not broken 01:13:08 ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism and thought you were talking about programming 01:13:54 the end of the sentence must have been fairly confusing then ;-) 01:17:21 indeed 01:20:08 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:41:24 why am I in a shrub. 01:57:06 imode: Ni! 03:06:26 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:12:32 -!- ais523 has quit. 03:20:46 -!- Mayoi has changed nick to erkin. 03:46:18 -!- tromp has joined. 03:51:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:59:03 -!- Mayoi has joined. 04:01:10 -!- idris-bot has joined. 04:02:23 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:17:51 -!- Mayoi has changed nick to erkin. 04:24:21 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:31:34 -!- Cale has joined. 04:34:37 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 04:46:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:08 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:19:54 -!- Warrigal has joined. 05:28:55 -!- augur has joined. 05:29:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:31:05 -!- augur has joined. 05:35:12 -!- tromp has joined. 05:39:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:00:31 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:01:27 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:03:36 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:17:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:23:33 -!- tromp has joined. 07:28:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:31:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:40:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:42:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:12:53 " ais523: I misread as rust and polymorphism" lol 08:13:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:15:06 ais523: some solvent must work, sure. the non-obvious part was if there's some househole agent that I can use safely (so not eg. natrium hidroxyde or some such cleaner) and simple enough to use to be worth for some cheap plastic thingy (as opposed to something expensive to replace like a window frame). 08:18:35 -!- tromp has joined. 08:20:44 `? windows 08:20:53 windows? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:21:20 `? frame 08:21:21 A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean. 08:21:40 `? locale 08:21:41 Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8. 08:23:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:35:29 -!- tromp has joined. 09:00:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:05:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:10:18 -!- tromp has joined. 09:14:28 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:41:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:51:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:59:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:18:41 you know, I asked many time for a numerical multi-dimensional maximizer function other than the ones in GSL? apparently recent versions of OpenCV have one. I'm sure this wasn't there in older versions. 10:20:40 @hoogle a -> a 10:20:40 Prelude id :: a -> a 10:20:41 Data.Function id :: a -> a 10:20:41 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 10:21:06 @tell oerjan @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout... how would one diagnose this 10:21:06 Consider it noted. 10:21:42 > 1 10:21:45 1 10:25:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:31:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 10:34:54 b_jonas: There's also http://dlib.net/optimization.html (don't know this firsthand, but remember having come across it somewhere) 10:39:20 fizzie: let me look at that 10:40:05 I'll look at it later, thanks for mentioning it, I haven't heard of that library yet 10:55:58 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:19:44 oh dear. they're printing an eighth Jace card 11:23:55 druid? 11:25:03 huh what? no, Jace is definitely not a druid 11:41:43 droid? 11:46:26 shachaf: no. Karn might be a droid 11:48:33 also, they're printing another hive land, which could be useful for some decks, like five-color sliver decks that already run only crazy lands and have four Ancient Ziggurats and four of that sliver land thing already , 11:48:45 or the spirit deck I'm trying to build 11:52:36 creatures you control have sliver. creatures your opponents control lose sliver and can't have or gain sliver. 11:53:11 😎 11:56:47 shachaf: we don't have those together, but we have the two separately 11:57:49 and for quite cheap too, namely Shields of Velis Vel for the first one and Ego Erasure for the latter 11:58:57 these are just about the only defense you can use against when a good sliver decks plays Crystalline Sliver unless it plays that very early 11:59:49 the other possible defense is mass creature removal, but that only works if you build your deck in such a way that it can recover from that faster than the sliver deck, which is not so easy 12:00:08 whereas Ego Erasure and Shields of Velis Vel don't require much of a build around 12:02:10 there's also some early defense you can do, which you need to have before the Crystalline comes out, like counterspells and similar 12:03:12 there's also Hivestone for the former by the way 12:08:41 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 12:11:26 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:07:55 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:11:30 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Client Quit). 14:26:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:34:12 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:38:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:39:30 -!- augur has joined. 14:43:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:55:03 -!- zseri has joined. 15:27:40 -!- ATMunn has changed nick to FIX. 15:27:42 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53051&oldid=53050 * Raumaankidwai * (-349) 15:27:49 -!- FIX has changed nick to ATMunn. 15:40:59 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 15:43:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:01:29 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:03:43 -!- Cale has joined. 16:21:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:30:17 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:36:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:03:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:12:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:25:39 <\oren\> oh shit, sint maarten is fucked 17:29:03 <\oren\> Barbuda is probably annihilated 17:29:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:32:00 -!- ATMunn has joined. 17:49:05 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:51:33 -!- myname has joined. 18:15:33 <\oren\> "Disgraced pharmaceutical CEO Martin Shkreli claims to have Hillary Clinton’s DNA and has threatened to clone her in a bizarre series of Facebook posts. " 18:19:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:32:14 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:43:11 -!- erkin has joined. 18:51:31 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 18:51:50 -!- erkin has joined. 18:59:24 -!- zseri has joined. 19:08:05 -!- imode has joined. 19:15:55 -!- augur has joined. 19:43:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:50:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:53:06 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 19:56:18 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Client Quit). 19:57:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:57:21 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 20:03:15 -!- sleffy has joined. 21:09:55 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:38:25 -!- ATMunn has joined. 21:51:53 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:58:19 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:33 -!- erkin has joined. 22:11:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:25:07 -!- augur has joined. 22:30:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:45:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:51:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:17:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:21:34 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:38:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2017-09-07: 00:07:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:37 -!- tromp has joined. 00:48:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:13:15 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:05:32 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 615 seconds). 02:05:41 -!- rumble has joined. 02:31:34 -!- tromp has joined. 02:36:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:50:53 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 02:54:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:58:56 @messages-loud 02:58:56 int-e said 16h 37m 50s ago: @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout... 02:58:56 how would one diagnose this 02:59:15 @tell it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. 02:59:16 Consider it noted. 02:59:19 oops 02:59:26 @tell incomprehensibly it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. 02:59:26 Consider it noted. 02:59:29 argh 02:59:38 @tell int-e it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. 02:59:38 Consider it noted. 03:00:12 @tell incomprehensibly ...tab completion error. 03:00:12 Consider it noted. 03:02:39 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:06:06 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Quit: See Ya.). 03:06:22 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 03:09:03 -!- tromp has joined. 03:13:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:41:32 [wiki] [[Drawkcab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53052&oldid=52138 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) C++ ----> ++C 04:01:36 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:04:58 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 04:11:36 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:13:10 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 04:25:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:56:55 -!- tromp has joined. 05:01:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:04:31 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:54 -!- newsham has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:20:11 -!- newsham has joined. 05:20:16 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:20:17 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:21:52 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:21:59 -!- Warrigal has joined. 05:24:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:27:00 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 05:27:49 -!- Gregor has joined. 05:32:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 05:44:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 05:51:45 -!- tromp has joined. 05:55:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:13:20 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:37:29 -!- SigmundYx_ has joined. 06:38:49 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 06:39:24 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:45:36 -!- tromp has joined. 06:47:16 -!- imode has joined. 06:50:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:03:47 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:34:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:40:17 -!- tromp has joined. 07:44:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:58:27 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:04:48 -!- sleffy has joined. 08:07:16 oerjan: uh, weird 08:07:45 am I to conclude that the command line hoogle is not deterministic? 08:11:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:15:44 -!- SigmundYx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:09 -!- imode has joined. 08:26:15 -!- tromp has joined. 08:37:10 int-e: well it wasn't on that day, anyway. 08:37:47 It's good enough if it's deterministic some of the time. 08:38:16 (This was acknowledging oerjan's joke, not missing it and then making the same joke.) 08:57:48 oerjan: I don't know anything tangible that changed between then and now 08:59:19 (nor did I actually observe the behavior you describe, but that's a smaller issue) 09:06:23 hm perhaps i should paste my log 09:07:38 08:35 =oerjan> @hoogle a->a 09:07:38 08:35 =lambdabot> package base 09:07:38 08:35 =lambdabot> package bytestring 09:07:38 08:35 =lambdabot> package containers 09:08:08 int-e: it gave the same response to every type i tried 09:09:08 this "worked" though: 09:09:10 08:34 =oerjan> @hoogle f::(a->b)->(a,c)->(b,c) 09:09:10 08:34 =lambdabot> Formatting.ShortFormatters f :: Real a => Int -> Format r (a -> r) 09:09:13 08:34 =lambdabot> Turtle.Format f :: Format r (Double -> r) 09:09:16 08:34 =lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars f :: FromExpr a => a 09:09:24 hmm 09:09:29 @hoogle a -> a 09:09:29 Prelude id :: a -> a 09:09:29 Data.Function id :: a -> a 09:09:29 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 09:09:32 @hoogle a->a 09:09:32 package base 09:09:32 package bytestring 09:09:32 package containers 09:09:38 some parsing problem 09:09:42 huh 09:09:55 shachaf: false alarm, it was deterministic anyhow 09:10:30 I'll try a newer hoogle version soonish, though it may have to wait until october 09:10:35 oh hm 09:11:07 @hoogle a 09:11:07 Text.Blaze.Html4.FrameSet a :: Html -> Html 09:11:07 Text.Blaze.Html4.Strict a :: Html -> Html 09:11:07 Text.Blaze.Html4.Transitional a :: Html -> Html 09:11:25 int-e: maybe it simply treats everything without a space as an ident 09:11:34 @hoogle Int 09:11:35 Prelude data Int 09:11:35 module Data.Int 09:11:35 Data.Int data Int 09:11:54 @hoogle a ->a 09:11:55 Prelude id :: a -> a 09:11:55 Data.Function id :: a -> a 09:11:55 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 09:11:58 (not quite) 09:12:42 anyway, this is Hoogle 5.0.9 09:13:40 5.0.13 apparently fixes this 09:13:45 aha 09:14:07 https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/issues/219 09:14:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:15:52 so let's just try installing the new version 09:18:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:23:39 @hoogle a->a 09:23:40 Prelude id :: a -> a 09:23:40 Data.Function id :: a -> a 09:23:40 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 09:25:26 so what is the significance of those 'package' results (if they are results at all...)? 09:34:36 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 09:34:53 -!- SigmundYx_ has joined. 09:35:47 -!- tromp has joined. 09:39:22 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:40:38 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:42:48 a -> a 09:48:27 -!- SigmundYx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:58:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:19:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:24:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:30:08 lol. today's first SMBC cracks me up http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pictograms 10:30:24 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:33:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:38:01 -!- augur has joined. 10:39:19 that's not even a chimp 10:40:06 I guess it could be a very stylized one but pls 10:41:16 Hooloovo0, are you accusing Zach Weinersmith of being able to draw and choosing not to 10:41:57 um 10:42:02 sure 10:42:16 thought it was a gorilla at first 10:42:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:42:48 -!- TheRegulator has joined. 10:47:05 -!- TheRegulator has left. 11:04:43 -!- Melvar` has joined. 11:05:34 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:09:30 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:48:06 Hooloovo0: I think misrepresenting the visual appearance of chimps is a noble tradition from Irregular Webcomic. 11:48:11 But yes, it doesn't look like a chimp. 11:50:09 us that a meme? 11:50:38 in the more technical sense o the term, that is 11:50:52 Hooloovo0: maybe just a callback 11:51:01 ah, ok 11:51:24 but more likely it's not intentional at all, only I'm connecting it, and Zach just doesn't care too much about drawing accurately as long as he can get the meaning through 11:51:47 they're just funny comic strips, not some hard sci-fi stories 12:19:41 -!- j-bot has joined. 13:02:04 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:06:51 -!- rumble has changed nick to grumble. 14:14:39 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:17:16 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Therrore * New user account 14:49:23 -!- erkin has joined. 15:01:58 -!- Mayoi has joined. 15:04:05 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:06:00 -!- Mayoi has changed nick to erkin. 15:18:38 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: .). 15:48:34 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:54:24 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 15:54:47 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest23223. 16:26:07 -!- xkapastel has joined. 16:51:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:54:34 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:58:08 -!- jix has joined. 17:02:35 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:04:17 -!- jix has joined. 17:09:04 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:18:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:42:54 -!- tromp has joined. 17:53:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:54:14 -!- augur has joined. 17:56:16 -!- tromp has joined. 17:59:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:02:08 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 18:04:13 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:13:14 -!- augur has joined. 18:17:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:18:48 -!- imode has joined. 18:26:20 -!- mroman has joined. 18:26:41 evening lads 18:27:09 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:31:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:29 -!- augur has joined. 18:32:36 `5 w 18:32:42 1/2:brevity//syn. "shortness" \ iwc//iwc contains puns! Puns galore! Puns after puns after puns! Also science! \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ `fetch//`fetch [] downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It 18:32:46 `n 18:32:46 2/2: is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit. 18:37:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:38:44 -!- tromp has joined. 18:44:29 -!- erkin has joined. 18:51:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:55:03 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:56:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:20 -!- zseri has joined. 18:59:51 -!- tromp has joined. 19:01:02 -!- zseri_ has joined. 19:02:35 -!- zseri__ has joined. 19:04:02 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:05:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:06:18 -!- zseri_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:06:35 <\oren\> ok, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this 19:07:29 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 19:10:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:13:59 <\oren\> AAAAUAAUAGHH it froze again 19:24:26 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:39:58 -!- tromp has joined. 19:40:26 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:41:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:44:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:53:02 -!- zseri_ has joined. 19:56:33 -!- zseri__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:03:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:11:30 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:13:32 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:15:03 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:15:34 hi guys 20:16:41 \oren\: bottom of what, and what froze? a drink? 20:16:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:17:50 how are you all today? 20:18:08 -!- Guest23223 has changed nick to Bowserinator. 20:18:14 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 20:18:14 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 20:22:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:31:11 ah rats 20:31:42 battey went out during creation of my recovery stick. 20:31:48 3h wasted. 20:32:02 and this keyboard can't really tolerate fast writing. 20:32:11 *typing 20:32:35 but it'll do for travelling I guess 20:34:10 mroman: whoa, what keyboard is that? Is it some really old device like a ZX Spectrum? Or some of this fancy modern software like Windows or mobile phone stuff that runs on fast modern hardware but still manages to have reaction times so slow that your keypresses appear on screen only a second later? 20:34:36 (Not that I haven't seen that happen on Linux too, but it's still certain bad software that causes that.) 20:34:44 -!- tromp has joined. 20:35:04 Anything in between can easily tolerate much faster writing than basically any human can manage. 20:36:14 I guess technically there's also old slow modems with a low communication throughput limit, and old typewriter terminals where the mechanics of the printer limit the speed, but even most of those are fast enough for typical human typing. 20:37:58 wob_jonas: It's a mini notebook 20:38:03 fairly modern. 20:38:18 probably a software problem then 20:38:27 unless your typing has to go through network without local echo 20:39:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:39:50 Im' probably not usde to hit this hard 20:40:07 and my timing si probably of because hte distance between keys is'nt exaclty thes ame anymore 20:40:23 but this si waht it look like if i try to type fash 20:40:43 It's a very narrow keyboard. 20:41:40 my typing gets bad when I'm angry and doing heated debate flames on internet. you can sometimes see that on IRC, even on this channel. it doesn't quite look like that though. 20:42:30 https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Medion-Akoya-E2215T-Convertible.188012.0.html <- a version of this one. 20:42:50 also, funnily, I have difficulty typing slowly. I think it's the centipede problem: I can type English just fine when I do it at the usual fast speed, but when I try to slow down to pay attention to the individual keypresses, I get all confused and forget how to type. 20:43:14 If I try to think of where each individual letter key is, I can only tell that very slowly, even though I press those letters in normal typing easily. 20:43:24 that's normal. 20:43:40 it happens with pin codes for debit cards etc. as well 20:43:57 And passwords of other sorts, yes. 20:44:22 I also have difficulty walking slowly, or also walking anything between my two habitual walking paces, the normal fast one and a slower one. 20:44:42 They differ in movement, not only speed, which is why I can't just interpolate between. 20:45:14 (The slower pace is also slightly more difficult than the faster pace, at least dexterity wise, not necessarily in energy use.) 20:45:40 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:45:49 wtf. they reskinned the library search webpage of FSzEK. 20:46:22 now it has these input boxes with custom borders, not just ordinary browser input controls with the height forced too small 20:47:06 I don't understand that stupid fashion. Even Wikipedia bought into it with checkboxes. I have just fine form controls in my fucking browser, there's no need to reimplement them with something worse. 20:48:01 -!- zseri_ has changed nick to zseri. 20:48:04 (At least the custom input boxes usually only differ in appearance, they still use the browser's normal text input. It's much worse when a websites reimplements even the behaviour of control, much worse than the browser.) 20:58:43 nope 20:58:52 YOU NEED JAVASCRIPT FORM CONTROLS 20:59:31 Because they don't offer any functionality browsers implemented over the years 20:59:47 such as remembering what you entered when you press backwards or F5 21:01:38 F5? wtf. you press alt-down to bring up the history dropdown. but the javascript implementations also do remember what you typed and offer suggestions, but often with a worse interface, and sometimes in a way that both the browser's dropdown and the custom one appears at the same time and conflict with each other when you try to choose an entry fro 21:01:38 m either dropdown. 21:01:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:02:36 You press F5 for reloading the page. Or control-R. Either works in all current browsers, the two different shortcuts originate from some difference in two popular competing browsers ages ago. 21:03:59 That's also why you enter the address bar with either control-L (which straight up activates it) or F6 (which cycles between the webpage, the address bar, and the sidebar in typical Windows fashion). 21:04:30 hob_jonas 21:04:37 hi shachaf 21:04:47 My old laptop's keyboard would send F6 if you pressed three keys simultaneously. 21:04:51 I think it was either hjk or jkl 21:05:07 I have a crazy idea, related to esolang community 21:07:05 shachaf: strangely, some keyboards or software start autorepeating a sequence of multiple letters if you hold down multiple letter keys long enough, so you get something like eg. "hkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkj". I could do it with even six letters in some configuration. This seems new to the last five years, and I don't understand why any 21:07:05 hw or sw would do that. Why would it autorepeat more than one key? 21:07:36 wob_jonas: Well, touchpads and touchscreens are now "multitouch" 21:07:42 So it makes sense to extend the same to keyboards. 21:08:05 Also, some keyboards just omit a key if you press certain combinations of too many keys at the same time and at least two of them aren't shift keys, but this is sort of an understandable limitation of the electronic wiring. 21:08:32 f5 is refresh in pretty much all browsers. 21:08:35 shachaf: typing all letters once when you press the keys simultaneously does make sense. It's autorepeating more than two that doesn't make sense to me. 21:08:49 mroman: yes, that's what I said 21:09:34 this notebook actually has touchscreen as well 21:09:51 shachaf: in particular, I used a workstation where I couldn't type leftshift+capslock+backtick, which is where "Í" is assigned on my strange keyboard layout. Luckily that's a rare letter. 21:10:43 but the keyboard is definitely a negative point. 21:11:07 saner keyboards and software, like this home machine I'm using now, doesn't do either. it allows basically any number of keys simultaneously, and doesn't try to autorepeat multiple keys at the same time 21:11:37 mroman: um, the keyboard is a negative point in that notebook in what sense? 21:11:49 it's not sensitive enough. 21:12:08 you can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke 21:12:14 (also, touchscreens for ordinary computers, eww, I hate those) 21:12:28 so you need to press firmer and hold the key down a bit longer than on other keyboards. 21:12:42 meaning typing at 120WPM really sucks with this keyboard. 21:12:54 (there's certain reasons to use it for some special applications, like in publically accessable terminals that anyone can access. even there I don't like them, but I admit they have some advantages.) 21:13:03 by which I mean: you can't type over 80WPM on this keyboard. 21:13:24 mroman: "can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke" ouch. a keyboard shouldn't do that. 21:13:37 that's like mechanical typewriters 21:14:02 plug in an external keyboard as a workaround 21:14:26 I think it only registers it if you press down exactly in the middle 21:14:41 that's even worse 21:14:48 if I press on the corner it won't register anything. 21:15:06 how did you get that notebook? did your job lend it to you for work? 21:15:17 I bought it in a store. 21:15:24 For 200 bucks. 21:15:34 so it's a really cheap one. 21:15:38 what does the keyboard feel like physically? is it like cheap normal computer keyboards, or horrible rubber keys, or something else? 21:16:12 like a regular notebook keyboard. 21:17:54 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:18:33 And there's like 10GB usable space 21:18:38 clerk said there's 20GB 21:18:43 ah 21:19:18 is the storage device 20 GB but filled with 10 GB of junk that comes with the system installation or later automatic downloads and caches and temporary files and log files? 21:23:24 need to analyse that first 21:23:27 -!- augur has joined. 21:23:48 fdisk 21:24:16 unless it has tricky firmware hiding some of the storage, in which case it's much harder 21:24:34 yeah 21:24:42 this shit should be regulated 21:26:05 what shit? shipping mobile phones with software full of security hole, even when they aren't deliberate holes for bad reasons but just plain bad development, with updates that make the original android OS even worse, and with no support for downstream security updates later, or no support at all half a year after people buy the phone model? 21:26:16 or false advertisment? 21:26:28 it's a windows 21:26:43 but bundling products with crap should be regulated yes 21:26:56 like pre-installing useless crapware 21:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:27:12 or stuff like anti-virus products that can't be uninstalled 21:28:01 I'd actually be in favor of prohibiting pre-installing anything EXCEPT the OS 21:28:43 it's just a scam to push useless software to unknowing customers. 21:29:18 windows might be the same, I'm just less familiar with it than the android crap 21:30:18 luckily mostly only from other people's devices and second hand accounts. so far I've managed to avoid owning any of this smartphone stuff myself, and even my next phone, which I'll probably buy within a year, will be a non-smartphone 21:30:36 (I like my current phone, but electronics does age) 21:31:28 (Also now I want more realiability, so with how long this one lives, I might actually buy a new one BEFORE it breaks down or gets stolen, to avoid even a day of downtime. 21:31:29 ) 21:33:01 -!- augur has joined. 21:33:38 meh 21:33:48 It'll do the job. 21:33:57 but I already have a normal notebook 21:34:14 so I didn't want to invest 1200CHF to buy a good mini notebook 21:34:23 I just bought the cheapest one they had :D 21:35:38 sure, I understand not wanting to buy something more expensive. that's why I specifically said external keyboard as workaround, because that's both cheap and simple 21:35:54 no space fo external keyboard :) 21:35:55 there's a huge market of external keyboards with lots of variation. obviously most of it is crap. 21:36:07 but keyboards are easier to test in shops than notebooks. 21:36:23 no space? like, holding the notebook in your lap on a train? 21:36:36 backpack 21:36:39 but yes 21:36:45 this is going to be my travel notebook 21:36:49 I see 21:37:13 my backpack is now complete and ready 21:37:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:37:34 a bit on the heavy side though 21:37:35 I remember when I was traveling to the airport in Sweden this year, by train. The train had nice tables between the seats. Three people sat together with me, and all three were busy apparently working on a large notebook each. 21:37:53 but temperatures are anywhere from -15 to +35C here 21:37:53 They didn't seem to know each other, so it looked as if everyone independently chose to work on the train. 21:38:02 so I had to pack winter stuff as well 21:38:16 (Only the ones sitting close to me though, not everyone else on the train.) 21:39:07 after my MRI I'm probably going to vanish for some time 21:39:10 When I travel within Hungary, I don't often see large notebooks. I see people pushing the touchscreen on tiny smartphone displays, with often a broken display. 21:39:18 unless the MRI actually shows something. 21:39:38 I saw a girl with a nintendo DS on the bus at one point, it stuck in my memory because it was so unusual. 21:39:38 but I don't have the will to go from doc to doc anymore. 21:39:46 vanish where? 21:39:58 I don't know. 21:40:02 ... 21:40:04 that sounds scary 21:40:12 That's why I packed for every temperatue range. 21:40:13 you don't want to get yourself committed, do you? 21:40:21 is it just some vacation? 21:40:31 an extended vacation that is? 21:40:37 you want to leave the environment of your normal home? 21:41:35 I don't know. 21:41:46 even more scary 21:41:49 I'm worried 21:41:52 Well 21:42:06 what are you supposed to do otherwise? 21:42:18 I don't know 21:42:25 scary. 21:42:27 and I don't know your circumstances 21:42:56 I can enjoy vanishing for a vacation, but only for two weeks or so 21:43:03 some people do it for much longer 21:43:24 I'm basically ill 3/4 of the time 21:43:27 like influenza ill 21:43:31 but it's not influenza 21:43:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:43:50 so I have very reduced capacity to actually do stuff 21:44:02 someone from our school had enough of everything at some point and suddenly vanished into Nepal, herding yaks on a bicycle or something, and returned a year later. or something. that's a bit distorted version of the rumour, but still. 21:44:06 which means rather poor quality of life 21:44:16 yeah, I also have that, but not that badly 21:44:31 slightly ill all the time, seriously ill twice a year, reduced work capacity during 21:45:02 just took a four month long leave from work, but didn't really vanish, not from work, not from my family or the internet 21:45:11 (not for longer than a week at once at least) 21:45:39 I'm too stressed, and also don't do enough sports and healthy eating and all that stuff, and it's a self-reinforcing bad cycle 21:45:56 also preinstalled software is usually demo 30 days 21:45:59 after a while I get overweight, which makes my health worse, my future health expectations much worse, but also makes it more difficult to break the habits and do more sports 21:46:03 but it's not removed after 30 days 21:46:08 like mcaffee 21:46:15 it'll consume ressources even after that 21:46:18 it's seriously worrying me, but hard to change 21:46:21 and that should be even more illegal. 21:46:34 so be careful 21:46:38 I can barely work 21:46:55 I hope at least you also do have a family supporting you, and that you don't vanish from them at least 21:46:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:46:59 It's like I only have 20% of my cognitive potential avalable 21:47:05 yeah no 21:47:10 as in, keep a mobile phone 21:47:12 no family suppoting me 21:47:21 weird relationship 21:47:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:47:53 yes, my memory and mind is getting worse. that's the really scary part, from the inside even more so than from the outside I think, because my family and coworkers can see how I'm fat and unhealthy and can't work as much, but I see that and also how I can't think normally 21:48:15 I'm not saying my family isn't a "weird relationship", but their support still means a lot for me 21:48:29 if you have no family, then you should strive to make one, even if they're not blood relations 21:48:35 but friends 21:48:56 I can hardly look my parents in the eyes 21:49:02 and sometimes I can't talk to them 21:49:11 as in: selective mutism can't talk 21:49:26 original family is great default in some cases, but I mostly care about them too because they care about me, all they did for me in the past when they were younger and more able to help, but also how they always try support me now as much as they can 21:49:40 -!- ^v^v has changed nick to ^v. 21:49:58 and I can't be comitted :D 21:50:09 theoretically yes 21:50:12 practically no 21:50:23 that... can be difficult. I hope they can work it around. my mother always seems to somehow correctly guess most of what happens to me, even if I try to not tell everything. it's hard to prove, but I think he has some secret superpowers. 21:50:31 (the rest of my family doesn't have that) 21:51:14 I hope you at least have enough money to be able to support yourself for a break from work while you regenerate yourself 21:51:22 my last clinic stay gave me PTSD 21:51:23 so 21:51:26 I simply couldn't keep up working all the time 21:51:40 they'd have a _really_ hard time keeping me there. 21:52:09 mroman: wait, so you say you can't be committed because staying in the clinic has a terrible effect on you? I don't think that's how institution works, but I don't really know 21:52:18 no. 21:52:23 not that I don't believe you can't be committed, only that reason seems odd 21:52:48 any doctor can legally committ any random person for 24h no questions asked 21:53:37 the questios is whether any random person would comply. 21:53:51 also, thanks for telling about your situation, it (and other stories on #esoteric ) shows me I'm not alone in some sense 21:54:03 theoreticaly the police can enforce admission of course 21:54:19 it's just 21:54:24 as for that, I don't know how they keep people in against their will, but they seem good at it. maybe that only works for certain types of people. 21:54:42 mroman: are you open to a discussion by PM? 21:54:59 oh. 21:55:24 well, technically, I do have some ideas from certain terrible stories my mother told about people who really had to be kept in for a good reason, but I mostly blocked them from my mind 21:55:41 I try not to pay too much attention to most details of my mother's work, it has a bad effect 21:56:08 I only listen to the part of how it affects her outside her works, like a certain workplace accident when he got his hand bitten, strongly, by a kid 21:56:33 and how overloaded she is with her work because she just can't stop accepting more and more work all the time 21:56:41 she's so dedicated 22:02:41 http://dlib.net/ => oh wow. this sounds nice. if it actually lives up to those promises in the front page, then I'll like this library. it reminds me to other well maintained software that I also like. 22:03:47 (some other such software are http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/ and http://sqlite.org/ . if you already know this dlib thing, and like it, check out those.) 22:07:54 wtf, did they change the shortcut for the bookmark manager too? I swear firefox keeps scrambling keyboard shortcuts lately. they've changed the shortcut for the download list twice, between control-J, control-Y, and control-shift-something, and now the bookmarks 22:10:52 -!- ATMunn has joined. 22:11:11 -!- tromp has joined. 22:15:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:17:46 -!- tromp has joined. 22:30:30 -!- Mayoi has joined. 22:33:19 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:35:13 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:40:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:40:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:43:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 22:43:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:44:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:55:23 -!- augur has joined. 22:56:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:56:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:59:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:29 shachaf: wait, I wanted to tell about my stupid esolang idea 23:00:35 I got distracted 23:01:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:45 basically I was thinking of creating an esolang parody of bad esolangs that some people create and write about on the wiki. 23:02:56 wob_jonas: Statistical Brainfuck is basically that, but I never got round to writing it 23:03:11 it's basically BF only it infers the commands in use via analysing the program 23:03:18 I'll try to use a lot of the bad tropes, such as no really eso features, missing computation power such as not enough control structures or not enough memory access, and also a bad attempt of an implementation that supports only the easier half of the language features, crippling it even more, sometimes fails to match the documentation, and has bug 23:03:18 s and bad coding that clearly shows the creator doesn't know how to implement interpreters (this part might be hard for me, I'm not saying I write good code, but it's hard to deliberately write code bad in that way) 23:03:19 and if it can't figure it out, prints "Hello, world!". 23:03:32 wob_jonas: ah, right 23:03:52 the easiest way to write a "language from someone who can't write interpreters" is to have no form of control flow at all 23:04:01 all the commands run in sequence, then the program ends 23:05:07 Also I won't learn Java or C# for just this, even though it would be realistic to write the interpreter in that, and I also won't unlearn C++ to imitate the horrible C++ styles found online, but I'll still try to do justice to using an unsuitable programming language and the wrong features of that langugae. 23:05:30 wob_jonas: write it in C with a .cpp extension 23:05:39 that should be close enough 23:05:56 and is fairly easy to do even if you're a good programmer 23:06:01 ais523: yes, that can work, but if I do that, then either I can't write an interpreter at all, or I'll have to write an interpreter that's not obviously lacking important features of the language. that could be more realstic, but also more boring 23:06:18 Python could also work, if you know it 23:06:49 ais523: yes, those are options. I was also thinking of using C or pascal with some vague label like "Pascal 5.0" that suggests some old DOS interpreter. 23:07:02 I haven't really decided yet. 23:08:01 what about some proprietary language which is very similar to a more widely used free language? 23:08:09 only I don't know many examples of those nowadays 23:08:51 ais523: I do know a little mathematica and maple and matlab, which may be enough to write bad code, but I'm not sure how realistic it would be for a newbie to use those to write interpreters 23:08:57 even bad interpreters 23:09:19 wob_jonas, how about visual basic 23:09:22 wob_jonas: right 23:09:23 I can also write C or C++ that only works in microsoft compilers 23:09:29 oh, yes, visual basic works perfectly for this 23:09:40 and you can learn the relevant parts in like 5 minutes if you don't know it already 23:09:44 (spending any more time would defeat the purpose) 23:09:55 C using conio.h would also make sense 23:10:06 Taneb: eww. I mean, I can write bad basic, I used to, even in visual basic, but I would feel so dirty from that as if I wrote php 23:10:21 wob_jonas, :) 23:11:28 ais523: pascal with turbo/borland pascal's crt library is sort of the same as conio from turbo/borland c, only older and that much simpler (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler), and was quite popular in the days when people used turbo pascal in DOS for education, and those days haven't completely ended yet 23:12:06 (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler) ← now I'm even more confused and worried about how when, years ago, I rewrote a Turbo Pascal program in C and it got slower 23:12:19 mind you, it was a good IDE and library for the context it was made for 23:12:26 was there something massively wrong with the library I was using, or something massively wrong with my code? 23:13:04 ais523: turbo C is an optimizing compiler, but that's basically like a non-optimizing compiler today. sort of like how C is a low-level language now, but was a high level language forty years ago 23:13:29 serious projects used assembly for all the performance-critical code 23:14:25 -!- tromp has joined. 23:14:27 it was easier to mix with C than even now, because there was good support for assembly in the IDEs and debuggers, good support for inline assembly, the compilers had simple ABIs, and the CPU and OS was simpler so optimized assembly prorgamming was easier to learn 23:15:02 which of course means that most of the assembly programs written back then are worse than what you'd write in C++ today, with some exceptions of master programmers, but still, it was useful at the time 23:15:32 wob_jonas: I'm trying and failing to remember the precise C compiler I used 23:16:03 ais523: what target platform? MS-DOS? win16 on x86? win32 on x86? 23:16:05 also, ABIs are /still/ simple when the signature of the function is simple 23:16:11 or even OS-2? 23:16:31 and I know the computer it was on was running either Windows 95 or Windows 98, but I don't know the platform of the executable, although it was probably a DOS executable 23:17:26 turbo C and borland C did support win16 as a target, but few people learned that because then you have to learn a lot about win16 system programming first and get familiar with the libraries 23:17:48 win16 was my "main" target platform for several years 23:18:01 good GUIs are still hard, and it was even harder when you HAD to support cooperative multitasking with no memory protection 23:18:02 when it stopped working, I ended up switching to Linux rather than trying to get win32 to work 23:18:20 (part of the reason behind this is that my compiler had problems making win32 code, possibly due to bitrot) 23:18:35 <\oren\> Cringe! https://scontent.fwaw3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21317927_870196236467487_2502978163715573443_n.jpg?oh=0036232e6f91b8a0c522171488267087&oe=5A1901C7 23:18:53 win16 + GDI wasn't too bad when you were used to it, anyway, although my programming style was shocking back then 23:18:59 or maybe not shocking, just unsuitable for Windows 23:19:26 I typically put the entire program logic into the repaint handler, then had a timer to repaint the window at short intervals 23:19:29 actually, when did it stop working? I stopped using win16 programs before windows dropped support, but I know win95 OSR2 runs the non-unicode win16 programs winword 2 and 6 and excel 5 fine, and I seem to remember they still ran on win32 23:19:40 which is actually how most old games consoles work (although I didn't know that at the time), but is very out of place on PC 23:20:05 wob_jonas: even in windows 98 some of the APIs didn't work 23:20:09 or do you mean compilers and libraries stopped supporting win16 programming, as opposed to windows stopped supporting running windows programs? 23:20:10 like the one to play music through the PC speaker 23:20:19 Technically, it never did stop working -- Windows 10 *still* supports Win16, if you're on x86, not x86_64. 23:20:38 ais523: I know some of the old APIs didn't work, but those came up in very old win16 programs from before windows 3 (seriously) or older DOS programs 23:20:40 That said, I imagine stuff only *kinda* works these days. 23:20:44 I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds 23:21:08 (although oddly, if you played one through Windows Media Player, the freeze happened when the file looped for the first time rather than when it was initially loaded) 23:21:23 pikhq: yes, but it's sometimes easier to just run those programs in a full virtual machine 23:21:31 I worked around this by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen at the start but it meant that the program took ages to load 23:21:56 Windows XP reduced this to about a second per file, so it was much more reasonable (although still seems ridiculously large given how simple a MIDI file should be to load) 23:22:15 also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do 23:22:34 rather than using separate functions which each had their own arguments 23:22:44 and I may have the name of the library wrong, it was ages ago 23:23:01 ais523: yes, I can imagine the graphics and sound stuff used mostly by games stopped working earlier. that wasn't really MS's target to support. although some of that is because the DOS (and even nominally win16) programs used direct hardware stuff, not documented APIs, for speed and flexibility, and those are much harder to emulate than APIs that 23:23:01 reasonably designed wrt future compatibility 23:23:53 "I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds" => hehe, that totally sounds believable. for that era, and for today also 23:24:29 "by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen" => wait, it froze for loading EACH midi file? that's even worse 23:24:45 couldn't you work it around by loading just one big midi file and playing sections? 23:25:33 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: need sleep). 23:25:52 "also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do" => we use the euphemism "domain-specific language" rather than "command line" for APIs like that 23:26:13 they still exist these days, and are sometimes good but sometimes terrible 23:26:49 <\oren\> i like sqlite 23:27:02 a reasonably good example is SQLite, where most of the API is SQL statements, and people keep asking for a more direct C api for many functions, but the devs wisely don't add such a thing, because that would make future compatibility much harder 23:28:31 a bad example is G'MIC's api, although I don't know enough about it to be sure. it involves syntax horror with impossible quoting of the like cmd and powershell could envy. 23:28:39 and it can access files from the file system. 23:30:02 you might also count cases where an interpreter was first and an API was added as an afterthought but the API wasn't designed, it just evolved from trying to hack the interpreter. perl is the classical example, but I seem to remember there was a few more like that. 23:31:00 wob_jonas: I'm not sure what controlled the duration of the freeze, it might have been that a large file froze for logner 23:31:13 (perl 5 obviously 23:31:34 wob_jonas: SQLite does have a direct C API for many of its functions 23:32:02 perl 6 has an overdesigned impossible to implement API with second system effect, completely unlike the rest of the language, because the designer for that is a different person from Larry who has the vision for the language proper) 23:32:43 ais523: direct C api for many of the auxiliary functions, but not for the database table accesses, which would be sort of the main point 23:34:27 also while it tries hard to pretend that it has a complete API for writing new SQL functions, there are actually a few things that the builtin functions can do but that are impossible with the public API. I asked about one or two of this, and it's by design, because they couldn't figure out a good enough API for that functionality yet, so they'll r 23:34:27 ather not add bad APIs that will constrain future compat. 23:37:09 in particular, MIN and MAX magically compare text values (character strings, they just use a strange term) with the collating function appropriate for the column, when the documented API makes that impossible 23:37:49 there's also a few builtin optimizations for MIN and MAX, but then those are transparent optimizations so that's OK 23:38:54 anyway, if I create such a parody, I'll try to create a new user account on the esowiki for it, with a little background personality story, and perhaps call it fungot 23:38:55 wob_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes 23:39:52 wob_jonas, isn't perl 6 basically an elaborate esolang in the intercal tradition by now 23:39:52 fungot: yes, and some of the things they promise are actually physically impossible. it is starting to sound like one of those pseudoscience products actually 23:39:52 wob_jonas: this is a very common fantasy among children played hopscotch! maybe! i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. they'll just go somewhere else. 23:40:08 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know 23:40:44 i mean 23:40:44 http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg 23:40:49 And I should try to hide some specific community in-jokes or references in the text too 23:41:04 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:41:14 Phantom_Hoover: yes, I can see why it's like an esolang, it's just the Intercal part that I don't understand 23:41:35 well intercal's philosophy was 'be a bizarre reflection of a serious language' 23:42:02 oh, and some of the perl6 features it has are very impractical to interpret even programs that sparesly use them, like computed come from 23:42:22 whereas the vast majority of esolangs are along the brainfuck/befunge tradition of 'be some utterly weird model of computation' 23:42:55 Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't look like a reflection of any language to me. quite the opposite, it seems a very unique language in its feature set and design, different from everything else I've seen, it's just that the feature set and design is terrible 23:43:22 that's true of intercal too man 23:45:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:45:48 perl6 has some parts of utterly weird model of computation, such as how it stores data. you can imagine it as a parody of perl5, where in perl5 it occured mostly from historical compatibility and different features trying to have different models utterly incompatible with each other, as in DWIM scalars a la perl/bash/tcl versus scalars that know th 23:45:48 eir dynamical type a la python/ruby; in perl6 it's a straight up design without much historical compatibility reasons that ends up looking like a bad parody. 23:45:52 i mean i've never looked into perl 6 too deeply b/c it was always too incomprehensible in my 'learn all the languages' phase 23:46:13 sure, I didn't look at it deeply either 23:46:36 and I'm actively avoiding it now, sort of like how I avoid PHP 23:47:41 the difference is that PHP has a bad history like C++ and has actually improved a lot in recent versions, slowly turning into a good language, but with most of the code monkeys using it still using all the bad programming practices they learn from past bad code examples and old books; 23:47:56 whereas perl6 isn't like that. 23:49:04 what's so weird about perl 6's scalars 23:49:29 I'm not avoiding PHP because it's such a bad language, but because I have a superstition that the four big p languages (perl, ruby, python and php) are mutually incompatible in that any one person must choose at most three unless they want to tempt fate, and I already know too much about perl, ruby, and python. 23:50:05 Phantom_Hoover: I don't remember. I managed to deliberately forget most of the specific knowledge I acquired about perl 6. I'm happier not knowing now. 23:50:16 It's possible that the scalars aren't the problem. 23:50:45 I only retained the general warning sign reasons so that I know why I shouldn't revisit it ever. 23:50:56 You know, to avoid the "how bad can it be" thing 23:51:48 but it's not easy to suppress stuff, which is why I have to completely avoid the language or else the suppressed memories might resurface 23:55:07 wait wait. how can a modern library provide a portable thread abstraction and at the same time have structures with non-threadsafe reference counting. that makes no sense. 23:55:44 atomic refcounts are not hard to implement these days, there are tons of other code you can copy from if you want the portability, and they're almost always just as fast as non-threadsafe refcounts if there's no contention of multiple threads accessing the same refcount close to the same time, with the unusual exception when there's page tear 23:56:10 s/page tear/cache line tear/ 23:56:27 cache line tear as in different threads accessing different parts of a cache line with at least one writing 23:56:59 and even with cache line tear you don't lose much performance compared to non-threadsafe code 23:57:08 maybe you don't lose any, I'm not sure 23:57:19 it's just that cache line tear already loses you performance, no matter what 23:57:38 you just have to avoid it, just like you avoid unaligned objects that pass through a cache line boundary 23:58:07 both are simply technologically impossible to support efficiently, there's nothing to do but avoid them whenever performance matters 23:59:51 but most of the time they're easy to avoid: just align all objects, and use a memory allocator that's reasonably threading aware. if you do that, then you usually have to do specifically stupid things as in disabling the safety that's already there to get misalignment, and typically have to do design that already has bad performance to get cache li 23:59:51 ne tear 2017-09-08: 00:00:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:05:05 sorry for the rant, it's annoying. I should set up a blog where I put all the stupid rants I talk about all the time 00:10:45 <\oren\> pholy fuck this code is so poisonous it causes the debugger itself to lock up 00:11:42 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:13:48 <\oren\> like I can set a break point at line 180, and hit continue, and then gdb will output its prompt, and THEN the system locks up 00:21:26 <\oren\> I can step through this part of the code, but not continue through it 00:40:21 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:50:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:14:37 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 01:15:55 `quote fungo 01:15:56 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea 01:16:02 `quote fungot 01:16:02 wob_jonas: hey, t-rex, i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. ready... set... go! on to, but i don't like them, you have to be wacky to go on a walk! 01:16:03 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea 01:30:54 `2 quote fungot 01:30:55 oerjan: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker. 01:30:56 2/42: please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys) \ 57) ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 80) 01:31:11 `randquote fungot 01:31:11 oerjan: oh, t-rex, i'm not sure i should do this" they'd say, and hey presto, you're a muslim! bears do it, but the more they'll find you 01:31:12 695) elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world 01:35:03 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 01:39:06 * ATMunn pokes fungot 01:39:06 ATMunn: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. everything is similar but different! everybody i know gets to write one chapter, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too? 01:57:51 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 02:04:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:28:51 -!- tromp has joined. 02:33:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:39:07 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:46:34 [wiki] [[Cubestate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53053&oldid=53051 * Raumaankidwai * (+61) 03:01:26 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:04:12 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:49:02 -!- Mayoi has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I have written a DOS COM program that loads a 16x9 VGA font I drew, but it only bothers to load the 95 printable ASCII characters or so, plus the 18 accented Hungarian letters, 13:51:02 Hehe 13:51:07 the table for ASCII font is stored raw in the COM file so that's like 95*16 bytes, but then the 18 accented ones have only the scanlines of the accents stored, and it generates them procedurally. 13:51:25 When I drew a bitmap font recently inspired by that hackaday post, I only bothered with uppercase, digits and a few punctuation characters 13:51:31 not even full printable-ASCII coverage 13:51:48 Ah, that's neat 13:51:51 Neither the compression scheme nor the code isn't too optimized though, partly because it's already small enough, and partly because I didn't know better. 13:52:09 As for "bothered with", well, that one isn't a particularly good font. 13:52:35 fecupboard20, the 10x20 font that I made later, is much better 13:52:37 reminds me of how ^~`'", in ASCII acted as diacritics too, via overstriking 13:52:48 Yeah, I have a copy of fecupboard20 somewhere 13:52:51 FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals. 13:52:58 FireFly: it's in `? fonts 13:53:10 ah 13:53:41 I should make a page collecting my bitmap fonts… and provide them in more useful formats 13:55:04 b_jonas: https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984 this was what I ended up with when I designed a font with the "re-use tiles" constraint from the hackaday post btw (it's bad as a programming font since 0=O, 1=I, 5=S, but intended for demo-y contexts where size matters) 13:55:25 FireFly: that would be nice 13:56:12 Yeah, currently my fonts are only provided in… ummm… my own "bitmap font format", which is really just a convenient way for me to edit it as a png 13:56:18 FireFly: nice 13:58:07 FireFly: I don't know how that compares to a COM file, but then for the two fonts I put in a COM file I later also extracted to headerless raw VGA font format 13:58:15 so that I can load them on Linux console too 13:58:48 * FireFly nods 13:59:04 I mostly just like designing fonts with harsh constraints placed on the design 13:59:11 like very harsh size constrains, for instance 14:00:03 FireFly: this is the 9x16 VGA font in the smaller COM file: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png 14:00:28 Hm 14:00:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:00:49 and it is sort of constrained to have only hollow lines, 14:00:49 I think I would fill in the vertical lines rather than backboard-bold it 14:00:54 mm 14:01:04 sure, that would look better. this one isn't really a readable text font 14:01:15 Yeah, more presentational? 14:01:19 it's rather a fancy heading font, which I know makes no sense in VGA text mode 14:01:26 it doesn't really have a good purpose 14:01:32 It doesn't have to 14:01:40 it was just something I made back when I had lots of time for stupid experiments but less experience 14:02:11 the * character look s particularly ugly, I tried to redraw it several times but couldn't get anything reasonable 14:02:57 I made a new lowercase for a 8×4px-tile font (7×3px size for capital letters), making the lowercase one pixel smaller, but more consistent in size across letters 14:03:17 http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2017-09-08_141818.png 14:03:21 that tiled font you made looks quite nice though 14:03:39 Yeah, I'm pretty content with it 14:03:56 I was thinking it'd look okay in a game (I had this js13kgames competition in mind when I made it) 14:04:47 the other font I made was actually usable as a terminal font. it was fecupboard18, which only ever had 256 characters of coverage, and I never distributed it because of copyright reasons: 14:05:12 I made most of it by combining characters from three or four existing 16x9 VGA terminal fonts, picking whichever I liked the best, 14:05:19 and edited only a few characters specifically 14:06:00 Fecupboard20 started as a sort of successor, but completely copyright laundered, but it grew to have a rather different visual style, and much more character coverage eventually 14:06:03 Ah 14:06:47 Fecupboard20 also originally had only 256 characters (and a lot of them were just copies of other characters), and even now the ASCII part is way more mature than the little non-ASCII coverage it has 14:06:59 it still both has too few characters, and some of the non-ASCII stuff is REALLY ugly 14:07:03 Most of my fonts cover only printable ASCII + assorted glyphs that I found interesting to draw 14:07:13 the whole greek letters part should be thrown out and redone from scratch for example 14:07:37 I think only oneof my fonts cover greek 14:07:40 covers* 14:07:44 FireFly: fecupboard20 covers printable ASCII plus assorted glyphs that I found interesting to *display* 14:07:50 in a terminal that is 14:08:05 Yeah, that's probably more useful :P 14:08:07 FireFly: this doesn't cover greek, it only has the basic greek alphabet intended for simple mathematical formulas 14:08:51 entirely unsuitable for greek text 14:09:22 if I want to add language coverage, I'd add more latin letters and russian before I even tried to draw greek 14:09:50 both because greek is less useful, I rarely try to read or write greek text, I only use greek letters for maths formulas, 14:10:08 and because greek is slightly harder to draw if you want it actually nice-looking 14:10:16 Hm, honestly I don't know if my greek is good for greek text 14:10:25 not that cyrillic is easy to draw either 14:10:33 http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/7x5px-font.png 14:10:46 the height is probably awfully off for my greek lowercase here 14:10:53 well, awfully inconsistent 14:10:57 obviously supporting greek text is nice and possible, but not in a font that only covers like 2000 characters 14:11:28 http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/9x5px-font.png oh I guess this one has greek too 14:11:29 FireFly: wow, that actually has greek letters! 14:11:44 and I don't think you made it up on the fly as I mentioned it, that would be too fast, you probably already had it 14:11:47 upper and lowercase 14:12:02 Yeah, these are old fonts 14:12:48 9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px, so a lot of the glyphs are shared between them 14:12:57 Just more space for ascenders/descenders 14:12:58 and it actually looks like acceptable greek letter glyphs to me too 14:13:10 2px for each rather than 1px for each (1px ascender/descender is really tiny :P) 14:13:23 "9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px," huh? 14:13:32 what's the difference between those two? 14:13:36 err, as 7x5px 14:13:40 my bad 14:14:12 well yes. 8x16 and 9x16 would share like a third of the characters too, but I never really tried to make a 8x16 font. 14:14:28 the 7x5px-font.png has 5px x-height, 1px for asc/desc (thus, 7px space reserved for letters), the 9x5px-font.png has 5px x-height and 2px for asc/desc 14:14:39 there didn't seem a point, with vertical screen estate always more precious than horizontal screen estate 14:14:58 Hm, it depends 14:15:56 I mean, I like having terminals open side-by-side, but would still want 80-90 chars' width 14:16:12 if, say, having files open in vim or so 14:17:09 FireFly: there are also 5+x7+ and 5+x8+ and x8+ fonts with no space allocated for descenders and 5 pixel x height, where the + means it's shown on displays with gap between the fixed character cells, and the x8+ is variable width shown on single-line pixel displays on information boards 14:18:04 ah 14:18:59 My tiniest fonts (3px and 4px high) are variable-width out of necessity… (also, are really uppercase-only/don't cover full printable-ASCII) 14:19:05 on modern large TFTs, you now get to do that with 9px width, even if we didn't on older 1024px wide TFT and good CRT monitors 14:19:19 Well, the 4px-high font *has* a lowercase but it's awful and I know it's awful 14:19:23 I wouldn't actually use ti 14:19:24 it* 14:19:42 (for some worse CRT monitors, 1024px wide had too many rows and wouldn't display nicely, and video cards didn't have enough memory for high color depth at 1024x width) 14:20:08 Heh 14:20:49 yeah, that was back when the choice between 4, 8, 16, 24 bits of color depth was a real problem, and lots of software had to have extra code for supporting reasonable graphics at lower color depths 14:21:12 http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/4px-font.png ← there are some horribly awful glyphs here (# & { } come to mind) 14:21:42 these days the difficulty is the opposite: lots of software don't yet have enough support for more than 8 bit per channel color depth, but more and more applications have real need for such high color depth per channel 14:22:03 this isn't only for display, but also for graphics editing without displaying the high color depth 14:22:09 Indeed 14:22:52 It's a bit unfortunate that we have kind of settled on 8 bits per channel as defacto standard 14:23:02 FireFly: I have tried to draw some tiny fonts, but they never really worked so I don't have anything actually finished, and even those had a pixel for ascender 14:23:05 no 14:23:07 a pixel for descender 14:23:51 at those small sizes you're best at trying to draw a font that has letter shapes rather different from traditional printed ones, readable only after practice 14:24:06 some crazy people do that even for larger sizes 14:24:17 that's a type of crazyness that isn't too far from me 14:24:48 even fecupboard20 has characters that are deliberately uglier for easier proofreading, because it's a terminal font, not a typographic font 14:25:13 I really dislike… inconsistencies like having lowercase letters at uppercase size (so x-height = full height) or using lowercase n as uppercase, but I think when working with extreme constraints it can be okay 14:25:31 but I have more restraints in going against the typographical traditions than to do something much more radical than that 14:25:38 b_jonas: oh, "sufficiently distinct glyphs" is certainly a fine thing to keep in mind when designing a font 14:25:54 that reminds me of some of the fonts designed specifically for signage 14:26:04 FireFly: sure, but still there's a difference between one intended for proofreading and one intended for easy reading 14:26:16 "signage"? what does that mean? 14:26:46 is that when you try to make printed text that's hard to modify (for either forging or defacing) by drawing some extra lines in pen 14:26:53 I mean, for traffic signs and such 14:26:54 ? 14:26:59 oh, traffic signs 14:27:22 Or car plates, where having distinct glyphs for different characters/digits is important 14:27:34 isn't that just normal readable fonts that try to be readable from faraway in bad vision conditions, rather than from close like books? you do sans serif with thick lines for that, but still make it nice looking 14:27:56 b_jonas: well, yes, but e.g. I recall some font where the Q had some quirks to make it more distinct from an O 14:28:09 I don't know what to think about car reg plates, because different countries use SO VERY different style fonts that I can't really imagine why 14:28:16 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:28:30 and it's not just because of a difference in the set of characters used 14:28:38 like intentionally exaggerating the space surrounding tail of the Q to make it extra clear at a distance 14:28:54 (the tail being separated with paddingn from the circle) 14:29:00 err, I'm not describing this well :p 14:29:03 because that can explain a few changes, like some countries have Ö and Ä in license plates 14:29:46 FireFly: meh, they do that with the Q even in some print fonts. it makes sense because it's a capital letter in text that's not all-caps. 14:30:07 reg plates are all uppercase, and road signs have some all-caps text 14:30:20 Mm, sure 14:31:39 Q is one of those letters that's rare enough in most text that fonts designers use it to try to make their font different from others. the other such character is & 14:32:25 I ended up with a somewhat Quake-like Q in that tile-based font :p with the tail being vertically centred and vertical 14:32:38 That was mainly for tile re-use purposes though 14:32:42 If a text says "Q&A", that's a great help for identifying an unknown font. 14:32:50 Heh, yes 14:32:57 hmm... I should put "Q&A" in font specimens 14:33:00 Ampersands are tricky to draw 14:33:09 -!- augur has joined. 14:33:13 I've never liked mine much 14:34:15 straight vertical tail in Q is fine, you can just say it's a long tradition going back to the phoenician alphabet. font designers always respect tradition. 14:34:28 but then, any style of Q is fine, and any style of & too, that's the whole point 14:37:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:39:55 Yep 14:40:05 of course, ideally the style is somewhat consistent across glyphs 14:41:08 b_jonas: re. fecupboard18, I recall reading that in the US bitmap fonts specifically aren't copyrightable because glyphs are small and so it's hard to claim originality/several people can draw the same glyph 14:41:30 Which is a bit interesting (and I think I disagree with it, but partially agree… blah, it's a tricky area) 14:42:14 like at some point if you approach extremely tiny sizes, it's inevitable that the same glyphs get drawn the same way independently 14:42:34 FireFly: it's possible that they aren't copyrightable, I'm not sure, but since it's not a particularly good font, nor one unique enough that someone would need that one in particular rather than any of the plethora of already available x16 video fonts (many of them clearly free of copyright), I didn't want to decide. 14:42:57 If someone wants to take a look at it without distributing it, I can give it to them personally, but I don't think it's valuable enough. 14:43:19 It's just a combination from multiple similar fonts according to whatever I liked at that time. I don't even like it much anymore. 14:43:44 fecupboard20 is different, some people apart from me actually seem to like it 14:43:57 and there's much fewer choice in decent x20 bitmap fonts 14:44:31 I couldn't just combine it from existing fonts with small modifications, because I didn't know of any good enough fonts similar to it 14:44:38 that's why I draw it from scratch 14:44:55 sure, I did take some inspiration of all sorts of existing fonts, but you have to do that to make your own art 14:47:04 Right, yeah 14:47:17 it's just an interesting thing, the copyrightability of bitmap fonts 14:47:52 I think individual glyphs are very likely to get reinvented a lot, but I think the value of a font (at least smallish bitmap fonts) is in consistency and style 14:48:15 and other such traits, things that cover the collection of glyphs as a whole more than an individual glyph 14:48:52 wow. I am writing a perl one-liner, and I just got an error from perl that isn't a fatal error and whose meaning I can't guess from the code 14:48:56 this hasn't happened for many years 14:49:05 s/fatal error/internal error/ 14:49:36 time to check the documentation 14:50:10 -!- augur has joined. 14:50:19 huh what 14:50:43 it's a warning, not an error, despite not clearly saying "warning", and the doc doesn't give a clear explanation 14:50:46 wtf 14:51:15 ah, I get it! 14:51:23 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 14:53:11 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:53:40 Ideally I should write a doc patch for this, but I'm lazy 14:54:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:01:29 -!- erkin has joined. 15:03:33 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 15:11:52 Q has so many fancy shapes that you could probably draw one that looks like a B or D or S or G at a glance and then deliberately try to confuse people with misreadable words like Quality, Quit, Quite, PLAQUE, Quest, Quilt. 15:20:02 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 15:22:26 Ah, Qu ligatures can also look very nice, although bitmap fonts aren't really ligature-friendly :p 15:23:08 FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals. ← I learned recently about this: https://twitter.com/chordbug/status/905772498796646400 ! 15:25:03 FireFly: was that one that used the type of CRT that traces graphics only once with no continuous rescans and the phosphor keeps remaining lit? 15:25:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:51 No idea 15:25:51 they even used CRTs like that as memory, back before DRAMS when people tried all sorts of crazy constructions to get large efficient RAMs 15:26:16 http://www.platopeople.com/emoticons.html has more examples too 15:27:03 such as rotating magnetic disks, rotating magnetic disks with a separate head for each sector (this was actually common, I'm not making it up), mercury delay lines, core memory, that crt thing, 15:27:15 and probably even more that I simply never heard about 15:29:54 also SRAM and shift registers made of transistors, which were not that crazy, but were hard to use before transistors were invented 15:30:07 tube or relay variant would have been too bulky 15:30:53 then the DRAM is of course BOTH crazy and requires large integrated circuits 15:31:21 but it turned out for large enough memory it could be made smaller than SRAM, so it won out 15:37:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:45:28 -!- zseri has joined. 15:50:57 -!- tromp has joined. 15:57:05 -!- Guest48979 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:00:26 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 16:00:50 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest74187. 16:02:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:16:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:46:25 -!- tromp has joined. 16:49:48 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:51:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:06:18 -!- augur has joined. 17:06:49 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:10:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:13:26 -!- tromp has joined. 17:15:35 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:16:16 -!- Guest74187 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:19:06 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 17:19:49 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest65869. 17:20:44 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 17:30:35 -!- ATMunn has joined. 17:36:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:48:41 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:04:12 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:08:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:25:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:30:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:33:09 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:34:01 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:51:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:57:32 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:58:13 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:05:05 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: :>). 19:09:13 -!- tromp has joined. 19:22:40 -!- augur has joined. 19:23:09 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:27:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:32:37 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:43:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:46:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:50:30 -!- imode has joined. 19:52:04 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 19:52:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:56:14 I have fixed the bugs in MIXPC with LD1N and so on, and now also it keeps track of how many cards have been read/punched so far 20:00:42 -!- erkin has joined. 20:02:21 Now the truth-machine program is working. 20:10:15 -!- Guest65869 has changed nick to Bowserinator. 20:10:22 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 20:10:22 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 20:26:52 zzo38, :D 20:29:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:41:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:49:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:07:38 -!- `^_^v has joined. 21:09:56 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 21:16:41 <\oren\> wait. coffee crisp and caramilk don't exist outside canada? 21:16:45 <\oren\> in what fucking universe is that acceptable 21:21:10 <\oren\> and cream soda isn't pink in america? what color is it then 21:22:35 -!- ATMunn has joined. 21:23:05 -!- augur has joined. 21:26:07 I don't know, but foods are better in Canada; I have been in other places and the food is not as good, so I will stay here in Canada. 21:31:00 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:05 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:38:38 -!- zseri has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:41:01 -!- zseri has joined. 21:42:36 -!- zseri_ has joined. 21:45:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:46:25 -!- zseri has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:53:17 \oren\: Clear or golden brown, typically. 21:57:03 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:03:26 <\oren\> pikhq: then how do u tell the difference between it and 7up or gingerale? 22:03:43 Presumably by the label I would think? 22:07:52 -!- tromp has joined. 22:11:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:15:53 Yup. 22:24:09 How can the critical path method be worked when some activities might not require all of their dependencies but rather five of nine or one of two or whatever? 22:26:28 (Also assume that the minimal set of activities needed to start the goal activity will be done rather than necessarily all of them; if the project needs some other activities, they will be made dependencies of the goal in the normal way (where all dependencies are required rather than only some).) 22:34:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 22:55:10 -!- zseri_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:56:08 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 22:57:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:07:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:35:12 -!- tromp has joined. 23:39:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:50:55 <\oren\> I'm glad I never watched star trek so I won't be sad when they ruin it 23:59:29 -!- Sgeo has joined. 2017-09-09: 00:10:20 The other thing about this variation of critical path method that I mention is that the graph will not necessary be acyclic (cycles can't be used with the normal critical path method, but in this case there is the possibility). 00:14:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:14:28 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:19:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:22:43 Do you know? 00:32:08 -!- augur has joined. 00:42:04 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Quit: See Ya.). 01:02:15 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 01:08:42 -!- Melvar` has joined. 01:10:17 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 01:10:55 -!- Melvar has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:10:59 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 01:28:05 I dont understand. Can someone explain this madness? http://i.imgur.com/deoP869.png ( from http://blog.piston.rs/2017/09/08/what-is-happening-5/ )' 01:36:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:56:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:13:54 -!- imode has joined. 02:20:39 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 02:21:23 " I don't know, but foods are better in Canada; I have been in other places and the food is not as good, so I will stay here in Canada." => have you been to Hungary or anywhere in the Balcan? 02:21:53 Food is great here, and cheap too. 02:21:59 No, I have not, as far as I can remember. 02:48:42 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:57:13 -!- idris-bot has joined. 03:01:16 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:04:16 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:28:38 -!- xkapastel has joined. 03:35:43 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:43:06 -!- tromp has joined. 03:47:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:33:38 [wiki] [[TheSingularity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53055&oldid=52814 * HereToAnnoy * (+2657) Clarification + 99BOB example 04:37:54 -!- tromp has joined. 04:42:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:51:50 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 05:19:30 -!- `^_^v has joined. 05:31:49 -!- tromp has joined. 05:32:44 -!- SigmundYx_ has joined. 05:34:17 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:35:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:39:55 -!- SigmundYx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:51:08 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 05:53:52 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 05:58:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:01:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:03:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:06:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:07:03 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:41:07 -!- Challenger5 has joined. 06:45:31 -!- sleffy has joined. 06:47:07 -!- Challenger5 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 07:19:49 -!- tromp has joined. 07:24:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:31:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:03 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:47:41 -!- augur has joined. 07:51:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:51:47 -!- augur has joined. 08:14:49 -!- tromp has joined. 08:15:01 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:19:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:21:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:25:23 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 08:44:54 -!- tromp has joined. 08:45:18 [wiki] [[Noid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53056&oldid=53045 * Zayne * (+40) /* Implementation */ 08:45:36 [wiki] [[Noid/decompile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53057 * Zayne * (+965) Created page with " import os s = open(input("Run Script: "), 'r').read() s = s.replace('a', '.') s = s.replace('b', '!') s = s.replace('c', '?') s = s.replace..." 09:34:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:00:15 -!- tromp has joined. 10:18:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:52:05 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:04:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:53:53 int-e: Why does lambdabot @hoogle give worse matches than web Hoogle? 11:53:57 int-e: Look at this thing: 11:53:59 @hoogle Monad m => [m a] -> m [a] 11:54:00 Control.Monad.Run mswitch :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b 11:54:00 Control.Monad.Run mswitch0 :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b 11:54:00 Control.Monad.Run mswitch1 :: (Monad m, MonadUnTrans MaybeAlg t) => [t m b] -> m b -> m b 11:54:22 https://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=Monad+m+%3D%3E+%5Bm+a%5D+-%3E+m+%5Ba%5D has sequence right at the top. 12:15:02 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:20:41 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 12:21:05 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest26272. 12:29:44 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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the databases are different. 22:11:52 fizzie: my setup of the hoogle command just uses 'hoogle generate', there may be room for tweaks. 22:20:59 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 22:21:59 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:22:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:30:33 int-e: There were some other "obvious" queries I did mostly just to verify which also didn't return the "expected" results. 22:30:44 @hoogle [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m () 22:30:45 Data.List nubBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] 22:30:45 GHC.OldList nubBy :: (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] 22:30:45 Distribution.Compat.Prelude.Internal nubBy :: () => (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a] 22:31:07 On the interwebs, forM_ :: Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m () comes first. 22:31:36 @hoogle forM_ 22:31:37 Control.Monad forM_ :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m () 22:31:37 Data.Foldable forM_ :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m () 22:31:37 Data.Vector forM_ :: Monad m => Vector a -> (a -> m b) -> m () 22:32:02 I guess it might be that -- your thing has the Foldable t instead of []. 22:32:12 well by all appearances, the online version isn't encumberred by the burning bridges proposal 22:32:56 and hoogle has no hack to restore the behavior, I wonder whether it has a bug report 22:39:29 Comments on a blog post: "What bother me most is the potential impact of such a change on tools like Hoogle or Hayoo! Will a search on the (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] type still be able to find mapM ?" 22:42:31 well, at this point in time, the answer is no. 22:43:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:43:05 even in the full list of tresults, of which there are 325 22:43:35 (with the hoogle on lambdabot's VM) 22:43:57 What is the height of the printer of MIX expected to be? 22:46:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:46:58 zzo38: on sheet paper or leporello? 22:47:22 int-e: Heh, looks like the http://hoogle.haskell.org/ version works the same way as your bot. 22:48:01 wob_jonas: What does "leporello" mean? 22:48:08 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 22:48:16 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Client Quit). 22:49:28 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 22:51:08 zzo38: long continuous stack of sheets folded in fan stack, the printer can see it as an almost infinite height paper, not feeding individual pages, around 70 g/m^2 density, with series of holes on the side so the printer can drive it more easily with a cogged rubber band on either side, but has perforations so humans can tear off the hole strip fr 22:51:08 om the sides and separate to A4 size pages 22:51:35 was used in dot matrix (and presumably daisy head) printers for printing bills cheaply in businesses that need that 22:52:54 there's also double layer carbon paper version of it for printing two copies of everything, also useful for bills 22:53:54 it's useful because it allows more stable feed than individual sheets 22:54:13 Yes, I know of such paper and have used it on dot matrix printers before, although MIX can command the printer to eject a page to start on the next page. 22:54:28 I think printers can still do that with leporello 22:54:45 which is useful for printing bills, because you want to tear at perforations between pages 22:55:02 (MIXPC just emits a ASCII form feed character when it is commanded.) 22:56:02 Don't the continuous paper need holes to feed the paper? So you will need a printer that feeds with such holes 22:58:47 zzo38: well, I think it's more like the holes make the feed more stable, especially for thin paper, but the whole point of a paper roll or leporello is less maintenance during printing, so both leporello and holes together helps 22:59:23 O, OK. 22:59:32 but I'm not really srue 23:00:00 I'm having a fun weekend and second half of the week 23:01:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:01:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:01:54 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 23:02:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:02:59 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:03:53 anyway, I expect around 60 to 70 lines per page 23:03:59 on a leporello 23:04:12 let's say 70 on a leporello, 50 on sheet paper 23:05:49 but since this is a 1960s computer, leporello would be the defalut 23:07:17 OK 23:08:21 but a MIX computer can be connected to various IO devices, and they can have different line length 23:08:32 different paper height 23:08:34 whatever 23:09:40 Well, as long as it does not exceed the limit it is OK. (Sometimes the number of lines printed may depend on user input, in which case the user input (possibly taken from a card) may specify the maximum number of lines per page. But I suppose due to what you mention, using 70 as the default (or maybe even a bit less than 70) can be reasonable.) 23:10:19 -!- augur has joined. 23:10:27 MIX anyways only cares about the width and not the height of various devices; the height may vary, but still is good to know a reasonable default value that can be assumed if not otherwise specified. 23:12:12 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:14:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:13 -!- tromp has joined. 23:25:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:29:29 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:30:31 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:33:06 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:35:17 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:46:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:56:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2017-09-10: 00:08:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:12:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:17:01 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:24:13 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 00:27:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:30:07 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:43:19 -!- tromp has joined. 00:48:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:15:35 -!- erkin has joined. 01:17:02 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:15:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:46:14 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:51:47 -!- augur has joined. 02:56:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:01:06 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:18:37 -!- joast has joined. 03:26:01 -!- fuyu has joined. 03:31:19 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Oh noes I ded). 03:40:26 I think punching only the top position is a ampersand, and the MIX character set does not have a ampersand, which makes it difficult to use with MIX if you are using a single hole in one column to represent a month. Specifying amount of money in pence will still be possible though since it only goes from 0 to 11. 03:40:46 (No, wait, I am wrong.) 03:40:55 (Since, it uses top position to mean 10 instead of 12) 04:08:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 04:19:30 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 04:21:24 -!- augur has joined. 04:25:00 -!- `^_^v has joined. 04:26:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:35:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:47:05 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:57:19 -!- imode has joined. 05:12:57 There is the "spider and fly" puzzle involving the shorest distance along the faces of a cube. How to do with the cells of a tesseract? 05:16:27 -!- tromp has joined. 05:21:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:04:01 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:10:03 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:11:07 -!- tromp has joined. 06:15:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:20:09 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:30:23 -!- zseri has joined. 06:39:15 esolangs.org seems down again. 06:42:48 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 06:43:50 yeah HackEgo croaked too 06:44:19 fungot: you'll have to steer the ship alone now 06:44:19 oerjan: the t-rex chases, of all places, t-rex, but t-rex explained how the bank that only i was a mutant with a fully-formed extra hand growing out of the base of my spine! if i had an " e", an " x", and so on, to infinity people in it showed a ghostly words written on a slip of paper! 06:45:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:56:49 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:05:15 -!- tromp has joined. 07:07:47 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:09:22 -!- fuyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:09:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:09:47 -!- fuyu has joined. 07:12:39 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:18:18 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 07:30:49 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:39:23 <\oren\> I should probably stop using the heaviside step function as a response curve. 07:56:25 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:23 -!- tromp has joined. 08:03:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:06:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:08:25 -!- fuyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:12:58 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 08:28:01 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:28:56 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 08:31:57 As the response curve of what? 08:33:36 zzo38: Do you like Edwards curves? 08:34:45 I don't know what is Edwards curves? 08:38:21 -!- tromp has joined. 08:54:41 `ping 08:57:29 zzo38: A type of elliptic curve. 08:57:33 Do you like elliptic curves? 09:03:30 . o O ( /ignore -channels #esoteric -pattern 'Do you like' ) 09:04:47 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:06:40 shachaf: also, is that a roundabout way of asking whether we like djb? 09:07:06 Maybe? 09:07:31 He's certainly overrepresented in what I've read about elliptic curve cryptography, which isn't much. 09:07:52 But his arguments for Edwards curves seem reasonable. Are there other arguments I should know about? 09:09:40 I don't know, I thought the arguments he made were persuasive, too. 09:14:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:19:45 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:27:43 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 09:40:03 int-e: I did like https://cr.yp.to/patents/tarzian.html 09:44:32 -!- Filystyn has joined. 09:44:38 anyone used autolisp? 09:59:55 From AutoCAD? Not I. 10:00:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:00:58 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 10:12:21 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:14:04 -!- fuyu has joined. 10:15:39 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 10:16:23 -!- fuyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:20:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:22:56 So, I've just ordered Hardy and Wright's An Introduction to the Theory of Numbers because apparently I like spending money on textbooks now that I've graduated 10:29:02 -!- tromp has joined. 10:32:16 addicted to learning :P 10:42:58 Pretty much :D 10:43:32 It totally isn't because one of my friends is catching me up on Project Euler 10:47:58 hmm 10:48:57 It's time for me to unoxford 10:49:06 oh I'm home already 10:49:09 have a good trip 10:49:12 Thanks 10:49:18 Meeting a friend for lunch in London 10:50:19 (hmm: it seems unlikely that I'll catch up on PE, ever. Now missing almost 370 problems) 10:57:19 and I may have forgotten my password as well, yay 11:13:38 -!- myname has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:26:55 -!- myname has joined. 11:51:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:04:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:04:53 oh I just got the most horrible troll of an idea for an esolang 12:05:08 I'll have to implement this 12:08:59 . o O ( brainfuck with all commands represented by the same symbol, chosen at random during runtime? ) 12:13:12 int-e: no. this is one about that parody I want to make about a newbie esolanger trying to make a language and an interpreter 12:20:51 Basically I was trying to think of how to write an interpreter that differs from the specification in an interesting way that is also realistic from a newbie. The interpreter can't just be completely useless or missing most of the language, because while that's realistic, it's not interesting. But the differences also have to cripple the language, 12:20:52 which is hard to make realistic. 12:21:13 And now I realized exactly how I could do this. This is tricky to write, but it will be worth. 12:21:25 so it's an underhanded esolang 12:21:33 yes 12:23:37 liars. "We use cookies so that Dropbox works for you." 12:23:53 It has to look like a stupid esolang from the specs, and has to be a completely differently stupid esolang if you actually try to run the interpreter 12:25:09 . o O ( Of course you could also try the opposite, a non-TC esolang that due to a programming error becomes a TC strange machine (ideally in a machine independent way; otherwise you'd just need a buffer overflow or other vulnerability somewhere) 12:25:23 ) 12:26:10 int-e: the implemented esolang might still be TC, it will just be restricted way more than the specs intends to restrict it 12:26:27 so it's much less convenient to program it than it seems from the spec and the examples 12:28:01 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:38:59 Oh! I could even make it work on windows only, as a bonus 12:39:14 or work differently on windows and linux 12:39:29 mwhahahahah 12:47:18 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 12:52:47 Multiplatform differences would make testing a bit trickier for me, I might have to ask help from other people. 12:59:48 I will also make the interpreter horribly inefficient for real computations, and get away with it because today's computers are fast enough that I can run toy examples quickly 13:00:12 And I mean so inefficient that I will scream inside as I read my own source code 13:00:30 Although I think that bothers most people much less 13:02:04 Oh, and I'll have to put the code on github 13:02:11 because that's what a newbie would do 13:02:19 then I can put jokes in the version control history too 13:10:01 . o O ( you could unroll a loop too, to improve efficiency ) 13:17:14 I've no idea how github works, but hopefully I'll figure it out 13:17:38 using github is something a newbie would do, right? they teach that in schools these days or something 13:17:55 best practices version control and github is the most popular version control system or something 13:18:09 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:18:19 git is a VCS, github is just a place that hosts repositories 13:18:25 probably, or perhaps bitbucket 13:18:45 it's a bit annoying it's become defacto standard 13:18:47 put your homework on github so all the other students in the class can copy it easily 13:18:49 though gitlab exists I guess 13:19:24 I wonder if I should try that in fact, making the language an obvious fork from another student's homework 13:19:59 . o O ( you may be reaching the point where you're trying to do too many things at once ) 13:20:03 with the name in a comment at top changed 13:20:08 yeah 13:20:17 this probably works better if it's not a homework actually 13:20:56 because then the teacher would hopefully at least teach something useful about interpreters and maybe look at the students' code and give them advice or something (yeah, I know it doesn't always work like that) 13:21:03 a hobby project by a single person is better 13:21:31 and if it's homework, they wouldn't come to esolangs.org and talk about anyway 13:21:38 if it's copied homework that is 13:22:00 so I will use github, but in a home way 13:29:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:38:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:39:10 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 13:53:38 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:00:17 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:00:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:13:16 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:16:28 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 14:30:57 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:35:01 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:38:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:17:12 -!- erkin has joined. 15:26:24 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:29:30 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:47:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:49:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:56:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:56:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:11:56 hi ais523 17:12:08 hi 17:12:47 ais523: I think I've started to figure out how I can do the interpreter part of this esolang parody thing 17:13:22 I have had trouble with it because I didn't have any memories of trying to write a bad parser before I knew how to write at least a working parser 17:13:36 but I think now I successfully got in the mindset, and know some core ideas, 17:13:57 so I'll be able to write a parser that hurts when you read the source code, 17:14:25 and more importantly, I know how to write a parser that results in a language that is interstingly more broken than the specified language but not so broken that it's boring 17:14:32 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:15:08 I might still need some feedback from some of you later 17:16:04 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 17:46:55 ais523: What programming language are you going to use to implement the card game that you have invented? 17:47:47 zzo38: I'm not sure if I'm going to implement it at all 17:48:10 wob_jonas: right, I guess this is one of the things you have to see before you can give feedback on it 17:48:51 Maybe I would try to implement it some day then; I don't know. And then you can complain in case I have done it wrong. 17:49:42 ais523: the breakthrough was when I realized I could simply match parenthisized subexpressions with /\((.*)\)/, to support nested parenthesis 17:50:16 but that made me see how I can make the rest of the parser ad-hoc and work only for specific example programs, without handling syntax errors gracefully 17:50:30 not just syntax errors, but things like unusual whitespace 17:50:48 the imaginary person simply didn't try most of the deliberate syntax errors that a person rarely commits 17:51:34 ooh, parsing with regex 17:51:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:52:47 so he would handle finding a statement keyword that doesn't exist yet, but not a missing expression after a comma in an argument list or something 17:53:03 yeah, I have to be careful with regex, because a newbie might not know of them at all 17:53:39 unless they're programming perl or something, and I don't just want to write the program in perl, because then I'd be too prone to write the perl I wrote when I was young 17:54:06 still I hope I can get away with naive uses of simple regexen 17:56:02 I mean, they're not that unknown these days unless I make the character program DOS Turbo Pascal 17:57:00 Ideally I should probably use Java or C# or something, but I'm not ready for that 17:58:36 well, I might still try. I can probably learn as much Java as the character 17:58:48 I'll just have to find some old and bad enough Java tutorial 18:00:01 Java supports PCRE-style regexes, perhaps surprisingly 18:00:06 I know it surprised me 18:00:39 the main criteria for the regex here is that the dot should automatically match newlines 18:05:30 oh, it doesn't in most regex syntaxes 18:05:34 ais523: I already had matlab as a candidate, because it already allows for (1) doing unnecessary file IO in the interpreter to look which source files exist and also having code that could break in interesting ways when you run it on a case-sensitive fs, 18:06:27 I just used [^] to match any character including newlines 18:06:48 and (2) easily lets the program call matlab functions, which makes the interpreter easier to implement and have the newbie-esoteric trait that it doesn't have arithmetic operator syntax and you have to call matlab's minus and times functions, which easily brings in the parenthesis limitation 18:06:57 zzo38: that won't work in all regex syntaxes, some of them parse the ] as a literal closing square bracket, not as the end of the character class 18:07:08 zzo38: yes, that doesn't work in posix regex, only in perl regex 18:07:17 maybe not even in perl regex, I don't remember 18:07:21 wob_jonas: IIRC it doesn't work in perl regex either 18:07:26 there's probably a syntax where it works, though 18:07:31 Well, [^] works in JavaScript at least. 18:07:33 anyway, the octave regex has dot matching newlines by default 18:07:42 (My implementation of /// in JavaScript does this) 18:08:11 matlab is also realistic as a language a student learns in a university class, 18:08:58 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/slashes.js 18:08:59 and has a reasonable enough syntax that the character could base his syntax on it and because of the builtin function thing, accidentally give .m as the extension for one of his supposed functions written in the program, although I'm not yet sure that works out 18:09:22 I probably won't do that, I'll probably make the syntax too different for that 18:09:50 FYI, wiki is down. As usual, no answer over SSH so... wait and see, I guess. 18:10:38 also, I no longer thing I'll call the character User:Fungot, because sadly there's a mainspace Fungot article which would make people find that before User:Fungot 18:12:07 I got an email alert, but of course I didn't notice until now. Should probably have it do something more visible, but OTOH so far there's never really been anything I could do about it. 18:33:59 -!- tromp has joined. 18:38:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:58:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 19:32:23 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 19:57:02 Why has the Wiki crashed so frequently lately? 19:57:07 -!- atslash has joined. 19:57:15 I don't know? 19:57:45 lol? 20:06:55 -!- imode has joined. 20:17:02 Because of it's hosting provider, I'm pretty sure. 20:19:48 s/'// 20:22:04 -!- tromp has joined. 20:22:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:23:14 -!- Filystyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:23:22 -!- Filystyn has joined. 20:25:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:59 -!- tromp has joined. 20:28:45 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 20:51:05 -!- Filystyn has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!). 21:05:00 GURPS has 100 core spells, which is too much to be selecting at random by use of a deck of cards, even if tarot cards are in use. Even if the Enchantment spells and Recover Energy are omitted, there is still too much. 21:06:14 (Enchantment spells are used to permanently enchant magical items and work differently than other spells, while Recover Energy cannot be cast at all.) 21:06:53 cannot be cast at all? you can only splice it? 21:08:49 Actually no (although I like that idea too, but none of the core spells can be spliced). Simply having it at a high enough skill level allows FP spent on energy costs of spells to be recovered faster by a mage who knows the spell. 21:12:31 I'm not sure it'd be a good idea if it could be spliced, it's hard to balance that thing. 21:12:47 But that depends on the rest of the mechanics and stuff 21:14:09 I just thought you meant that you want a random choice of spell for misfiring a wand that a non-caster is trying to zap, in which case recover energy would make no sense 21:16:33 -!- augur has joined. 21:24:18 -!- ATMunn has changed nick to nnuMTA. 21:24:33 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:30:11 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:30:48 fizzie: admin of esolangs.org (according to whois) is Alan Dipert. Domain Registrar: godaddy; server location: Canada; Nameserver domains@: zem.fi , rollernet.us 21:32:41 ISP = KW Datacenter 21:33:54 I mean a wand with a random effect, even if it is not misfired, but still it has to be a spell that can be cast. (Splicing also won't be used in this case, presumably, though.) 21:34:19 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:35:26 zseri: That WHOIS info isn't quite right, possibly because I have WHOIS privacy turned on for the domain. 21:37:09 ah 21:38:20 But yeah, it's hosted (with HackEgo) on a cloudatcost.com "one time fee" VPS, of which stories have been told. 21:38:53 https://www.trustpilot.com/review/cloudatcost.com 21:42:39 fizzie: Just gave it a kick on the panel. 21:43:00 -!- HackEgo has joined. 21:43:03 If you have anywhere to move it to, I'd recommend moving it X-D 21:43:14 CaC seems to have gone from bad to worse. 21:45:03 can we just stop using/talking about c@c at all? 21:45:43 fizzie: but why is it then nevertheless hosted there? 21:51:12 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:02:39 `ping 22:02:47 pong 22:02:58 up again 22:27:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:59 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:32:34 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:37:10 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 22:39:46 Gregor: Thanks. I looked at Google Cloud Platform (we at least used to get some free credit for it), but it can be used only "for business" in the EU. Maybe after Brexit. 22:39:50 (I'm too stingy to pay specifically for it more than the yearly domain renewal.) 22:49:41 There's a few very cheap offerings around, though -- should maybe seriously consider those. They might not be great, but it's not a high bar to be better than the status quo. 23:01:27 -!- nnuMTA has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:55 -!- nnuMTA has joined. 23:16:49 -!- augur has joined. 23:17:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:57 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:21:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:24:23 -!- nnuMTA has changed nick to ATMunn. 23:56:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2017-09-11: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:18 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:09:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:14:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:36:28 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:46:48 -!- tromp has joined. 00:47:00 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:50:26 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:51:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:35:59 -!- augur has joined. 01:39:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:32 -!- tromp has joined. 01:45:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:59:56 -!- augur has joined. 02:04:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:06:15 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:30:31 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:32:20 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:45:03 [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53061&oldid=52781 * HereToAnnoy * (+158) formatted page better 02:57:32 -!- tromp has joined. 03:01:09 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:02:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:09:04 -!- `^_^v has joined. 03:15:32 I partially am making up the calendar printing program for MIX. It needs a data deck with at first the starter card (specifying the year and cell height), and then zero or more date cards, and then a blank card at the end. The same data deck can be used every year except that the starter card will need to be replaced with a fresh one. 03:16:26 But, the starter card has many unused character positions, so we could use them to allow the same starter card to be used for several years, if you can punch an additional hole into one of the unused columns every year until it is full. 03:18:55 It is also using a disk, with one record per week, for temporary storage, since the RAM is not enough. 03:23:27 Do you like this? 03:31:30 -!- tromp has joined. 03:36:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:36:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:47:03 [wiki] [[WCDA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+3852) Created page for WCDA, the ultimate golfing language 03:51:10 [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53063&oldid=53062 * HereToAnnoy * (+4) minor - added link to Hello, World! 03:57:08 [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53064&oldid=53034 * HereToAnnoy * (+69) /* W */ - added WCDA to the language list 04:05:03 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:06:12 -!- MDude has joined. 04:16:00 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:56:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:19:38 -!- tromp has joined. 05:22:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 05:24:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:47:18 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 05:54:33 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:10:55 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:14:29 -!- tromp has joined. 06:18:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:35:56 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:38:21 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:49:05 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:03:04 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:08:26 -!- tromp has joined. 07:12:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:12:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:20:21 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:27:31 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 07:29:47 -!- atslash has joined. 07:54:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:02:54 -!- tromp has joined. 08:04:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:07:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:09:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:12:54 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 08:13:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:17:27 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:43:06 -!- tromp has joined. 08:55:52 -!- augur has joined. 09:00:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:05:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:08:36 -!- wladz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:09:14 -!- wladz has joined. 09:13:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:28:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:39:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:43:26 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:39 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:56:27 -!- augur has joined. 10:01:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:07:27 -!- tromp has joined. 10:12:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:16:12 -!- tromp has joined. 10:16:40 hi all 10:18:01 " But, the starter card has many unused character positions" => how many characters of it do you use to encode moon phase? 10:18:49 zzo38: a calendar program is nice, and I have thought of writing my own one day, although not in MMIX 10:50:19 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 10:57:24 -!- augur has joined. 10:59:58 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:00:08 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 11:02:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:45:08 -!- fuyu has joined. 11:48:44 -!- fuyu has changed nick to fuyuu. 11:58:14 -!- augur has joined. 12:03:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:13:22 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:14:56 was 1097 olisted yet? 12:15:17 yes, it was 12:15:23 I'm stupid, I've even seen that 12:15:36 it's days old 12:43:38 https://xkcd.com/1886/ <-- well you can take solace in the fact that I was blissfully unaware that "typing notifications" are a thing 12:43:57 (let's just hope that IRC client don't jump on this particular train) 12:44:11 I mean 12:44:15 ... 12:44:23 ... 12:44:25 ;-) 12:46:53 int-e: IRC clients won't, because luckily the kind of people who think IRC should be extended with modern multimedia capabilities are developing a dozen different chat protocols with modern multimedia capabilities and decentralized cryptography schemes and video chat built in 12:47:40 and if anyone tried to add client-to-client typing notifications in IRC, which is totally technically not that hard, freenode would kick them in the ass for the useless extra traffic 12:48:15 skype has typing notifications by default, and I think you can't disable them now with the latest dumbed-down client which doesn't even have an options dialog or a way to quit or anything 12:48:32 basically MS has successfully turned skype into malware 12:48:41 it was already close, but they made it worse 12:48:52 and I don't think skype is the only chat that does that 12:57:15 yeah that seems unlikely 12:58:02 *shrug* 12:59:12 -!- augur has joined. 12:59:27 int-e: ITYM TYPING 13:01:45 I think Hangouts' typing notifications are also un-disableable. 13:03:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:13:24 The same is true for adding multimedia inserts or fancy HTML formatting information or extra-long lines or picture avatars or name colors or deletable or editable messages, 13:13:52 any of which could be added to IRC as an extension among cooperating clients, but nobody bothers with that, because the people who care write fancy heavy javascript-based web chat programs. 13:14:00 or android apps 13:15:49 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:19:19 I wrote an irssi plugin for one-time-pad encrypted messages once. 13:19:36 Then swapped a CD-full of random bytes with a friend. 13:19:47 -!- zseri has joined. 13:20:10 I think I wanted to say "CD full" or "CD-ful", but somehow ended up with both there. 13:23:22 fizzie: hehe, lol. there are cheaper protocols than a CD full of random bits, but ok. 13:42:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:42:43 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:49:11 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:00:02 -!- augur has joined. 14:00:30 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:04:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:05:01 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:11:54 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 14:14:36 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 14:15:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:23:10 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:24:05 -!- fuyuu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:39:04 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:44:06 -!- fuyuu has joined. 14:47:16 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:00:45 -!- augur has joined. 15:05:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:15:05 -!- fuyuu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:16:40 -!- fuyuu has joined. 15:24:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:29:53 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 15:37:02 . o O ( how does one remember C-x 5 2 ) 15:38:26 int-e: You don't use any chat program with typing notifications? 15:38:40 shocking 15:39:26 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:39:39 fizzie: I use (non-multiuser) Hangouts with XMPP, and I assume I can disable typing notifications in my client. 15:39:55 But this is becoming less and less supported, I suppose. 15:51:52 shachaf: that's right. 15:53:02 -!- alercah has changed nick to lexer. 15:53:10 shachaf: Also, my mobile phone has about 15 keys and 3 games on it, no camera, and the flashlight is an actual lamp rather than the display backlight. 15:53:23 -!- lexer has changed nick to alercah. 15:53:39 3 games? Is one of them Snake? 15:53:44 yes 15:53:49 Then you're fine. 16:01:35 -!- augur has joined. 16:06:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:10:57 `ping 16:11:00 pong 16:11:09 good, so HackEgo and wiki probably came up 16:12:01 int-e: 15 keys? that seems either too few (if it has a numeric keypad and no touchscreen or a touchscreen and full alphabetic keypad), or too many (if it has a touchscreen and no keypad). 16:13:38 -!- fuyuu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:15:55 b_jonas: 12 for the numeric keypad, # and *, and then you have 3 more... perhaps pick up, hang up, and something to do with caller id? 16:18:35 Cale: most phones have at least 16, typically around 22 to 25 these days. a phone that has games most certainly has at least 16. 16:19:13 I only know of one very old phone that has 16 keys, and that kind of interface is too limited and rare these days 16:19:31 everyone is copying the interfaces from each other, and since the previous one has more buttons, the new ones have more buttons too 16:23:46 b_jonas: The moon phase isn't encoded on the card, currently; I should think it would calculate the phase of moon by themself if they needed to do, rather than taking it as input. 16:24:59 I imagine you could use the numeric keypad to control those games. The N-Gage had 5 and 7 as the A and B gamepad buttons, slightly raised. Though it also had a d-pad. 16:25:14 I seem to recall 12 (keypad) + 3 (up, "action" and down) + 2 ("soft buttons" on left and right bottom corners of screen) = 17 being pretty standard setup. 16:28:56 I would think in addition to the 0-9 * # you will also need send, end, high volume, low volume, and delete. 16:31:39 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 16:33:38 b_jonas: Note the "about". I'm not sure how to count the cursor cross, since it's a single button with four active directions. I think it's actually 17 or 20, depending on how you count. 16:34:01 int-e: Count it as four buttons, I should think 16:34:24 int-e: if it has four directions, then it's four buttons. if it has four directions plus can also be pressed in the middle for a different effect, it's five buttons. if you can only press it up and down, it's two buttons. if up and down and middle, it's three buttons. 16:34:40 ... 16:34:54 as I said, it depends on how you count; I gave two ways that I consider reasonable. 16:35:05 fizzie: these days phones also have a power key and often volume keys and sometimes other extra keys (lock, lamp, message, alarm clock) on the sides or the back. 16:35:14 int-e: ok 16:36:44 fizzie: and many phones have two soft buttons and an additional pick up and put down buttons, with red and green icons, between the soft button and the numeric keys 16:37:28 I am counting everything in my own count of 17 16:38:14 these conventions are useful because on non-touchphone telephones, if you want to call emergency services, you can always just type 1 1 2 followed by the button above the 1; and if a colleage leaves his phone in the room and it rings loudly, you can almost always mute it by pressing volume buttons on the side or back and/or turning the phone display down. 16:39:13 It seems like the people who make the laws actually care about being able to call emergency services from all phones easily, 16:39:36 and as for the loud ringing, it's getting more and more important with so many phones with no removable battery, 16:40:14 You need removable battery. 16:40:25 but even apart from those the manufacturers just want to make people be able to learn to use their phones easily 16:40:34 In case it won't turn off somehow, can be useful 16:40:47 zzo38: yes, it's useful. but there are still phones without it. 16:41:01 (Or if the battery is damaged and you need to replace it) 16:41:09 usually they put in some special turn off mode like PCs have where if you press the power button for long enough it turns off 16:42:14 no, I can actually understand why they don't want a removable and replacable battery. they want a light and thin phone, and if the battery is removable, then it needs an extra layer of casing on both of its sides, besides what the phone would already hvae 16:42:26 phones without removable battery can simply have fewer plastic in them 16:43:17 also, if the display breaks once every two years in normal use, then most phones don't get to the age when the battery has to be replaced 16:43:27 and people replace their whole phones with a new model every two years too 16:43:34 so why bother with replacable battery? 16:47:04 They shouldn't need to change it entirely every few year 16:48:16 sure, but even then, my phone is about six or eight years old now, I'll replace it soon, and the battery seems to have a lifetime comparable to the rest. the battery is simply no longer the part that lives the shortest, so why make that one replacable in particular, rather than any of the other parts? 16:49:42 O, if the battery lives longer anyways, then it makes sense, but why can't the other parts work? 16:51:11 the display breaks often because it's huge and has a glass plate that extends to the sides of the phone with little or no frame, so whenever you drop the phone in any orientation except flatly to the front or back, the glass gets a shock from the side and may crack. it may also get hurt in other ways. 16:51:29 but it's not just parts breaking, but sometimes people wanting the features or performance of a new phone that might matter. 16:52:35 I suppose it can then depend on the individual customers; who are more likely to break or not to not do so; and there are sometimes if you want hardware upgrades too. But sometimes you might only need a software upgrade, depending how it is designed. 16:52:54 also in android and windows phone smartphones, the software gets unsupported because the manufacturers make changes from the vanilla OS and barely update the modified OS with upstream security patches, so you end up with very old software that is often unsecure 16:53:12 so people either install custom software or they have to buy a new phone just for the software 16:53:42 zzo38: sure, it's just that getting a software update is often impossible 16:53:53 not updating the software, but getting the software you want to update to 16:54:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:54:47 That can be the case, but they should allow custom software (unless the software is stored in ROM, in which case there might be a reason to make the ROM chip replaceable, or preferably, to use programmable ROM so that you can set an internal switch in the battery compartment to programmable ROM mode if you want to upgrade it). 16:55:03 That is why you need open source software, then you can make the upgrade by yourself 16:55:32 and as for dropping the phone, what do you expect people should do? half of the phones these days don't even have a wrist/neck strap attach point in the chasis, and I think when my grandmother lost the back cover of her phone, that was because I had a wrist strap attached without a proper attach point which made the back cover not snap in properly on that corner 16:56:07 zzo38: the smartphones almost always do allow you to install custom software, it's just that you don't find the right custom software to intsall 16:56:33 at least for non-apple phones. apple phones, I think, have longer support for their software 16:56:55 Depends how the customer uses it and how prone they are to dropping stuff, how often you carry it with you, store in your pocket, etc. 16:57:10 Some people don't drop stuff as much 16:57:55 b_jonas: Yes, but I am saying they should include full source codes and free license for the manufacturer's software; even if they do not maintain it anymore someone else might do. 17:00:42 zzo38: I don't know, I think people are just overconfident and don't think they'll drop their phone, yet I see a lot of people with phones with broken displays on a bus, and whenever you travel on a chair skilift, you see an abundance of dropped batons and gloves under the route. 17:01:41 sure, maybe some people don't drop their stuff. I do drop my stuff, which is why I use a wriststrap and a neckstrap (not at the same time) for my camera. I don't use a strap for my mobile phone, but it's survived a few drops already, doesn't have a big display, and is cheap enough to replace, and I want to replace it soon anyway. 17:01:48 That may be the case. Still, some people might be more likely to drop it than others anyways. 17:02:11 I've even dropped my phone into a toilet bowl once. That doesn't just happen to other people like I thought. 17:02:18 (It survived.) 17:02:38 -!- augur has joined. 17:02:42 Yes, I admit I have a low DEX score, so I fail those checks more often. But half of the people have a low DEX score. 17:07:11 Look, my father cut into his finger with a circular saw. And that's a dangerous machine and he knows he has to avoid it, and pays attention to what he's doing when using it. Whereas 17:07:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:08:35 people text on a mobile phone while still holding on to the bus so they don't fall, three shopping bags full of goods and two children; or they hold a mobile phone to their ears while driving, using their two hands to also hold the steering wheel, the shift stick, a cigarette, a sandwich or cup of drink, and the leg of the girl sitting next to them. 17:08:57 It's absolutely normal that people drop their mobile phone. 17:09:25 Yes, and you shouldn't do stupid things like trying to do all of those things at the same time. (Where I live it is illegal anyways) 17:10:20 But yes, of course someone may drop it anyways 17:10:22 I drop them because I don't yet have a kid I have to hold, so until that, because I'm clumsy, I have to pay extra attention to train myself to drop things in my hand when I trip so I can put the palms in front of me if I fall forward or behind me if I fall sideways or back, 17:10:45 against the normal reflex of always keeping holding on to whatever is in your hand, which only makes sense once you grow up and carry a child in one hand. 17:11:47 Holding stuff in your hand while driving is usually illegal, yes. Holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is most definitely not illegal, and it'd be hard to regulate. 17:13:40 Yes, holding shopping bags and two kids and a mobile phone is not illegal and probably shouldn't be illegal, but still you shouldn't do all of those things at the same time while you are also eating and driving and smoking all at the same time too. 17:14:08 Yes, those are two different examples. 17:14:29 OK 17:15:02 Did you write a calendar program? If so, in what program language? 17:15:08 Few people hold their children while driving, or their children while holding the leg of the girl next to them, or two shopping bags while driving. 17:15:28 That's what I thought. 17:15:51 I have written one program that computes the days of the week, in perl or ruby (I'm not sure), but I haven't written much else. 17:16:56 Instead I just wrote emails to timeanddate.com each time the Hungarian government decides to swap up holidays just a few months in the future, and used their calendar. 17:17:13 Plus paper calendars and other existing computer calendar programs. 17:18:04 And I also used libraries for some date-time computations, like date arithmetic and io. 17:18:11 There's a ton of those. 17:18:43 I used perl Date::Manip from CPAN mostly, it's good (and I also have written emails to its maintainer), but it's not perfect. 17:22:45 What things are the problem with it and have you fixed it? 17:24:16 zzo38: with timeanddate, and almost every other calendar interface, I'd like to see both the name of the month and the one-based number of the month, together on the same year overview calendar page, and also in other calendars, on month overview and week overview pages. 17:25:08 OK then I will put that in 17:25:11 with Date::Manip, many bugs have been fixed if you upgrade to latest versions, some outstanding problems that are hard to fix are: (1) it's a perl module with perl interface, but you often want to so date calculations and perl is an overkill, so you need other libraries, 17:25:43 (2) Date::Manip doesn't do sub-second precision (it gracefully discards sub-second parts when parsing, but that's all), 17:26:41 (3) for localized translated formatting, it uses only its built-in set of around fifteen languages, which is fine for me, but in general you want a larger translation database, such as the one ICU or glibc have. 17:27:11 Glibc has a longstanding bug with Hungarian localization of dates, but I never bothered to fix that because I don't want Hungarian localized interface, but some other people do want that. 17:27:12 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:28:05 Where Date::Manip excels is the three (actually more like five or six, but I use three) different modes of date arithmetic 17:28:23 and the customizable formatting and scanning of dates 17:28:43 -!- ATMunn has joined. 17:28:56 I have to afk now for probably 90 minutes 17:29:38 The program I have, a date card might look like this: " 0901 1F +00 2 LABOUR DAY " and the rest blank. 17:35:39 (The "+00" is actually optional; if left blank, it means the same thing. The "1F" if omitted will just use the date in the first five character positions instead; in this case, September 1.) 17:52:46 copumpkin: yopumpkin 18:03:17 -!- augur has joined. 18:03:59 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:04:30 -!- Antoxyde_ has joined. 18:06:35 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:08:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:15:15 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:21:11 @google "pumpkin lemma" 18:21:13 https://twitter.com/metadave/status/396017702117994496 18:23:34 <\oren\> when did this delicious drama start! "YouTube star PewDiePie under fire for branding rival gamer with n-word" 18:45:48 -!- augur has joined. 18:53:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:04:53 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯). 19:09:08 It's not delicious, it's boring. 19:09:15 If you stop paying attention to it maybe it'll go away. 19:10:31 \oren\: "newbie"? 19:11:18 Or, well, "noob". 19:16:05 <\oren\> int-e: no, someone killed him and he yelled that they were a fucking nigger 19:23:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:40:14 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53065&oldid=53058 * Zseri * (-390) remove useless information about internal vm stacks 19:45:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:48:04 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53066&oldid=53065 * Zseri * (+189) re-organized variable assign commands 20:11:09 Cale: Super Mega books are shipping out soon! 20:23:39 `? smlist 20:23:45 `? smlist 20:23:47 Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega. 20:38:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:14 shachaf: nice 20:39:03 Are you in the Kickstarter thing? 20:41:57 -!- imode has joined. 20:43:54 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:44:34 I think I got it from the preorder store shortly after the kickstarter ended 20:45:45 fungot, you're still here, right? 20:45:46 wob_jonas: and a second course of extra dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that in the dark, so that 20:45:55 ^style 20:45:55 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube 20:48:50 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:50:02 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:01:53 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 21:02:17 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 21:02:17 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 21:03:56 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:05:20 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:06:11 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 21:08:43 -!- sftp has joined. 21:09:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 21:09:26 fungot: that was a bit too extra 21:09:26 oerjan: never!! so that's why! 21:09:33 OKAY 21:10:09 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:15:30 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 21:17:13 -!- dingbat_ has joined. 21:18:05 -!- lifthrasiir_ has joined. 21:18:30 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 21:19:24 -!- pledis_ has joined. 21:19:28 -!- deltab_ has joined. 21:20:56 -!- xkapastel_ has joined. 21:21:02 -!- molum has joined. 21:21:59 molum? i 'ardly know 'um! 21:22:38 -!- sdhandsucks has joined. 21:22:41 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 21:22:47 -!- sftp_ has joined. 21:22:56 -!- nchambers^ has joined. 21:23:35 -!- sdhand has quit (Disconnected by services). 21:23:36 fungot oerjan? 21:23:36 int-e: and i think to myself: this is a black market, t-rex? there are already a lot, but they're always a good party, but are we including all space as the nouns! you can have nouns floating around you in conversation. how is that not awesome? 21:23:43 -!- sdhandsucks has changed nick to sdhand. 21:23:52 -!- sdhand has quit (Changing host). 21:23:52 -!- sdhand has joined. 21:24:07 -!- wob_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- xkapastel has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- MrBusiness has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- pledis has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:07 -!- deltab has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:08 -!- ybden has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:08 -!- dingbat has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:08 -!- ocharles has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:08 -!- nchambers has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:08 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 21:24:12 -!- sftp_ has changed nick to sftp. 21:24:16 -!- xkapastel_ has changed nick to xkapastel. 21:24:29 -!- dingbat_ has changed nick to dingbat. 21:24:40 -!- ocharles_ has changed nick to ocharles. 21:25:02 -!- nchambers^ has changed nick to nchambers. 21:26:18 shaichaf 21:28:24 ybdolum 21:38:48 <\oren\> konnichaf wa 21:39:08 Haven't we been over this? The "ch" isn't like "chair". 21:39:43 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:41:20 <\oren\> shakhaf 21:42:15 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 21:51:25 shachaf: this is a fact that I've somehow never been in the channel to see 21:59:03 i had guessed that fact before being told, but had otherwise guessed the stress wrong. 21:59:10 i never even suspected that there was a preferred pronuciation 21:59:42 i thought it was just "i rot13d funpuns. pronounce it however you like." 21:59:57 :D 22:01:09 boom shachaf lachaf 22:01:33 badum tishachaf 22:01:53 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:09:19 -!- Antoxyde_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:26:10 -!- augur has joined. 22:31:54 quintopia: thanks 22:32:55 for what? 22:35:07 sbe gur ebg13 uvag 22:48:35 \unrot13 sbe gur ebg13 uvag 22:48:48 dafuq did i have a space there 22:49:33 oh its supposed to be forward slash *facepalm* 22:49:45 its latex that uses backslash 22:54:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:58:33 int-e: that uvag is wrong, anyway 22:59:19 `? \ 22:59:20 ​\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash. 23:15:21 -!- deltab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:16:26 -!- deltab has joined. 23:17:34 [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53067&oldid=53061 * HereToAnnoy * (+18) /* Contributions */ 23:36:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:40:34 <\oren\> Ok, this is the craziest thing I've ever heard: "heated oil bath core memory" 23:41:13 <\oren\> early IBM computers literally fried their memory to keep it at a consistent temperature 23:45:01 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Oh noes I ded). 2017-09-12: 00:08:19 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 00:08:34 \oren\: early computers also heated their cathode tubes, hadn't they? 00:10:22 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 00:11:47 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 00:14:50 * Sgeo_ wonders if MtG Arena will be good 00:15:16 it'll depend a lot on its monetisation model and how buggy (or not) it is 00:15:28 I've been learning not to underestimate WotC's ability to screw something like that up 00:18:02 -!- Bowserinator_ has changed nick to Bowserinator. 00:18:08 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 00:18:08 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 00:40:20 -!- ATMunn has joined. 00:48:55 I haven't played Eternal in a while, maybe I should play a bit 01:08:09 -!- Warrigal_ has joined. 01:11:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:29:27 -!- catern has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:32:26 -!- catern has joined. 01:55:01 -!- Warrigal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:05:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:09:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:09:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:27:21 [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53068&oldid=53063 * HereToAnnoy * (+1015) Added more examples and documentation 02:45:52 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:46:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:47:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:50:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:10 -!- augur has joined. 03:01:19 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:09:35 -!- erkin has joined. 03:32:32 -!- tromp has joined. 03:37:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:46:14 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:03:13 ais523, should I sign up for Closed Beta? I know the rules of MtG to some extent but haven't played much and not great at deckbuilding. I do have a Magic Duels account so I think I have priority access. 04:03:20 But would that be stealing access from a better player? 04:03:28 Especially if I don't end up playing a lot 04:04:11 Sgeo_: it's up to you, I wouldn't worry much about stealing access, they can just change the numbers of people accessing it according to how active people are 04:31:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:51:08 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yangtse * New user account 04:52:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:53:29 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53069&oldid=53059 * Yangtse * (+104) /* Introductions */ 05:08:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: bedtime). 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:26:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 05:39:45 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 05:53:44 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:03:41 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:17:25 @tell oerjan the hint may be wrong but it's very plausible. 06:18:47 -!- lambdabot has joined. 06:18:54 It's OK, oerjan will see it anyway. 06:22:09 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:26:44 -!- lambdabot has joined. 06:31:35 . o O ( stupid socat ) 06:37:46 -!- sleffy has joined. 06:41:27 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:43:13 -!- newsham has left. 06:46:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:57:51 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:59:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 07:02:39 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:03:25 -!- jaboja has joined. 07:06:30 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 07:06:38 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:07:13 -!- jaboja64 has changed nick to jaboja. 07:39:39 -!- tromp has joined. 07:44:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:01:58 -!- fuyuu has joined. 08:04:51 -!- tromp has joined. 08:13:17 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU has joined. 08:13:21 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU has quit (Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?). 08:16:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:16:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:18:28 -!- tromp has joined. 08:21:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:29:51 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU has joined. 08:32:14 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU has left. 08:36:36 -!- FreeFull has quit. 08:38:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:17:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:30:32 -!- fuyuu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:43:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:47:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:50:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:52:05 @messages-loud 09:52:05 int-e said 3h 33m 31s ago: the hint may be wrong but it's very plausible. 09:55:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:22:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:28:13 -!- tromp has joined. 10:30:55 -!- fuyuu has joined. 10:30:59 -!- fuyuu has quit (Client Quit). 10:33:38 -!- augur has joined. 10:38:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:51:26 It's OK, oerjan will see it anyway. <-- SPOOOOKY 11:08:49 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Szs * New user account 11:10:52 -!- zseri has joined. 11:11:48 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53070&oldid=53069 * Szs * (+125) /* Introductions */ 11:13:04 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 11:13:25 [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53071&oldid=52636 * Szs * (+1) /* Hello, world! */ corrected: a 0 is necessary to end the loop 11:25:45 `! befunge 64+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ 11:25:46 Hello, World! 11:26:30 [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53072&oldid=53071 * Oerjan * (-1) Undo revision 53071 by [[Special:Contributions/Szs|Szs]] ([[User talk:Szs|talk]]) (Welcome, but it's not - empty stack pops give 0) 11:32:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:06:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:22:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:50:24 -!- MDead has joined. 12:50:40 -!- Melvar` has joined. 12:51:26 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:51:58 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:52:17 -!- MDead_ has joined. 12:54:28 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:55:43 -!- MDead has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:12:01 I always write 52*, and I know people who write 55+, but 64+ is new to me. 13:12:22 (Context: putting a newline on the stack in Befunge.) 13:16:08 I'm pretty sure I've used everything from 55+ to 91+ in the -93 part of Mycology 13:16:51 Never 52* though, don't you know that adding is faster than multiplication? 13:45:04 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:45:27 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 13:46:19 -!- idris-bot has joined. 13:46:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:01:57 -!- MDead_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:12 -!- MDead_ has joined. 14:06:01 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:11:41 -!- MDead_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:16:47 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:23:18 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:00:11 I think I've used 91+ in my programs 15:00:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:09:43 -!- zseri has joined. 15:11:09 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:16:25 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:26:55 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: goodbye peasants ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 15:33:51 -!- TieSoul has joined. 15:36:22 -!- TieSoul has quit (Client Quit). 15:39:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:54:36 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 15:57:58 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:15:32 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 16:16:20 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:21:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:27:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:31:18 `olist 1098 16:31:19 olist 1098: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 16:33:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:35:07 oh 16:36:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:54 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:00:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:21:53 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:38:24 -!- imode has joined. 18:17:47 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:25:10 -!- heroux has joined. 18:40:41 copumpkin: Do you like Matt Levine? 18:53:43 [wiki] [[Smallfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53073&oldid=51417 * EzoLang * (-17) Change sf2tab link to point to the current Cat's Eye URL 18:56:37 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:59:04 -!- nchambers has joined. 19:00:15 [wiki] [[XTW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53074 * Zseri * (+694) create page 19:00:29 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:01:20 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53075&oldid=53064 * Zseri * (+10) +XTW 19:12:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:12:47 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 19:43:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:52:11 -!- augur has joined. 19:58:10 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 19:58:12 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:06:18 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:13:33 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 20:14:32 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53076&oldid=53074 * Zseri * (+144) +Interpreter 20:19:24 -!- MDead_ has joined. 20:37:35 -!- molum has changed nick to ybden. 20:52:15 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 20:54:26 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:59:41 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eILrESvP-jE 21:03:49 -!- sleffy has joined. 21:09:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:17:23 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:17:31 <\oren\> Life-hack, do all your banking with a bank whose world headquarters are in your city. 21:18:39 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:11 I think my bank has something like three branches in the US, and none in this state. 21:19:25 What's the benefit of having the world headquarters in your city? 21:19:50 Maybe you can take the CEO hostage if you're unhappy. 21:31:44 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:33:10 -!- Soni has joined. 21:33:32 -!- Soni has left ("Leaving"). 21:33:36 -!- Soni has joined. 21:34:33 1-bit brainfuck with overflow is interesting because both + and - do the same thing 21:38:03 there are a bunch of instruction reduced bf derivates with that idea in mind 21:38:08 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:39:59 I'm just too lazy to write a piston-powered 8-bit adder and I/O device 22:06:15 -!- `^_^v has joined. 22:21:51 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:22:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:38:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:38:40 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 22:38:40 -!- sparr has joined. 22:48:36 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:26:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:26:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:37:44 -!- ATMunn has joined. 23:39:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:54:59 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:57:20 -!- MDead_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:59:07 -!- MDead_ has joined. 2017-09-13: 00:08:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:27:10 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:42:07 -!- erkin has joined. 00:44:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:51:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:51:43 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 00:51:49 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 00:57:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:04:40 -!- augur has joined. 01:21:33 -!- MDead has joined. 01:24:27 -!- MDead_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:33:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. 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Got SIGABRT, dying...). 11:46:58 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:21:25 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:29:29 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 13:00:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:10:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:18:50 -!- zseri has joined. 13:19:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:47:08 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:01:19 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 14:07:09 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:07:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:07:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:26:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:28:27 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:30:09 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:30:53 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:40:44 ROFL another of those funny webpages that put a box saying "You're reading a preview. Unlock for full access." and fades and blurs a page, all in client-side HTML+CSS, but still serves the full image to you under it. 14:41:16 There's a ton of these for some reason. I don't get why. 14:41:51 I mean, if you want to show a blurred preview anyway, it wouldn't even cost much to just store low-quality blurred faded images on your server. 14:43:32 sadly, I didn't find what I actually want 14:47:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:56:41 -!- juh9870 has joined. 14:56:49 Hi everyone 14:57:06 I tried to make first interpritier for ACRONYM 14:57:10 But failed 14:57:32 so, here http://cssdeck.com/labs/full/mugdi9nj you can try out what i made 14:57:50 it have working basic rules of ACRONYM 14:57:57 and i made loops working 14:58:18 but you must define conditions of the loop at the start of loop 14:59:09 like so {/{{(>>)}}[>]:/=: ...code... \} 14:59:30 bit examples from ACRONYM page not working 14:59:33 idk why 14:59:42 for debbuging use brpwser console 14:59:47 F12 in Chrome 15:21:29 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 15:56:18 -!- MDead has joined. 16:08:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:17:38 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 16:36:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:48:50 -!- tromp has joined. 16:56:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:00:27 -!- MDead has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:00:43 -!- MDead has joined. 17:01:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:04:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:05:37 -!- tromp has joined. 17:18:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:32:50 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Quit: See Ya.). 17:38:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:41:51 -!- tromp has joined. 18:02:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:55 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:12:32 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:24:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:32:57 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zayne2 * New user account 18:35:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:44:31 -!- tromp has joined. 18:49:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:56:20 -!- imode has joined. 19:02:46 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 19:09:12 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53078&oldid=53076 * Zseri * (+37) +Object orientied paradigm 19:18:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:23:59 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:28:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 19:31:24 -!- this has joined. 19:31:27 this chat dead? 19:32:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:32:25 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 19:32:34 -!- this has quit (Client Quit). 19:39:17 -!- tromp has joined. 19:39:29 -!- juh9870 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:43:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:44:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:47:32 Apparently 19:49:39 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international bush for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 19:50:10 hm i guess that's just the same thing 19:50:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international brush for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 19:53:52 -!- tromp has joined. 20:05:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:16:07 -!- MDead has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 20:26:36 That is not dead which can eternal lie. 20:27:52 `? lie 20:27:54 Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups. 20:35:22 -!- tromp has joined. 20:40:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:41:41 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:56:16 -!- tromp has joined. 21:06:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:38 -!- augur has joined. 21:15:03 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:16:22 -!- tromp has joined. 21:29:24 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:33 -!- tromp has joined. 21:33:04 -!- MDead has joined. 21:33:53 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:35:21 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:37:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:49:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:52:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:07:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:11:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:29:14 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 22:46:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:46:52 -!- augur has joined. 22:51:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:56:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:04:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:04:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:08:37 -!- ATMunn has joined. 23:31:33 -!- tromp has joined. 23:32:01 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:32:30 -!- Melvar has joined. 23:36:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:37 -!- augur has joined. 23:41:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:50 -!- augur has joined. 23:50:06 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:52:48 -!- adu has joined. 23:56:26 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2017-09-14: 00:23:17 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 00:28:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:43:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:14:07 -!- idris-bot has joined. 01:19:54 -!- tromp has joined. 01:24:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:57:24 -!- tromp has joined. 02:02:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:37:25 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 02:51:19 -!- tromp has joined. 02:55:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:02:28 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: :>). 03:14:29 [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53079&oldid=53068 * HereToAnnoy * (-128) minor page edits 03:39:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 03:45:32 -!- tromp has joined. 03:49:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:40:02 -!- tromp has joined. 04:44:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:10:04 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 05:22:58 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:30:51 -!- BikiniOptional has joined. 05:32:14 -!- BikiniOptional has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:33:59 -!- tromp has joined. 05:38:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:01:10 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:04:39 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 06:14:03 -!- adu has joined. 06:18:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:21:08 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:26:35 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:35 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:42 -!- rodgort` has joined. 06:30:54 -!- lambdabot has joined. 06:56:18 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:02:40 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 07:14:07 -!- _fractal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:21:57 -!- tromp has joined. 07:26:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:37:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:01:20 -!- Soni has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:03:45 -!- Soni has joined. 08:16:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 08:21:12 -!- fractal has joined. 08:29:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:32:46 -!- noobTuberPoopieP has joined. 08:40:40 <\oren\> lol netanyahu's son wtfbbq 08:41:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:42:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 08:43:14 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:44:08 this is death 08:44:11 -!- noobTuberPoopieP has left ("Leaving"). 09:10:01 -!- tromp has joined. 09:18:45 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:36:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:43:08 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:44:11 -!- tromp has joined. 09:46:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:48:15 -!- sftp has joined. 10:17:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:17:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:32:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:39:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:52:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:59:08 In M:tG, how will the new set Ixalan have a merfolk theme, when they no longer want to print color hosers, and merfolks in Lorwyn had the theme of going everywhere on water by taking the water with themselves? 11:00:06 What the heck? How do they have so many non-vanilla tokens in a set? 11:09:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:22:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:25:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:37:18 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:38:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:39:22 -!- tromp has joined. 11:43:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:45:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:48:01 -!- Soni has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:49:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:03:05 I'm trying to buy a replacement battery, and for that, I have to determine the type of the battery in the device. It is cylindrical, 0.027 long, and has the labels "VAVVT 27A 12V alarm battery". 12:03:46 I figured it's probably an A23 battery, since that's of a similar same size and shape and nominal voltage, but I'm not completely sure. 12:04:23 Quantum lambda calculus seems pretty interesting 12:05:59 (It also says "Hg" under a crossed out trashcan icon, so probably a mercury battery, as well as "made in China" and "Leagallon battery co., ltd. www.vavtt.com" and "Warning: do not dispose of in fire or attempt to recharge as battery may explode or leak.") 12:11:54 But apparently there's also a battery size called "A27", which is also 12 V and 0.027 long, and also can apparently be labelled 27A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:27A_Battery.jpg 12:12:55 Apparently the A27 type is thinner. 12:13:55 I'll have to measure the diameter when I get home. 12:14:51 Damn. 12:30:57 -!- Soni has joined. 12:49:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:50:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:52:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:02:27 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:27:24 -!- tromp has joined. 13:28:47 `w 13:28:50 ​ü//ü is the ridiculously happy second derivative of the letter ‘u’ with respect to time. 13:28:59 `recipe 13:29:00 g powder \ 1/3 c Brown sugar \ 2 c Flour; sifted \ 2 tb Butter or margarine \ 1 ts Sugar \ 3 tb Lemon juice \ 1 Garlic cloves; etchick \ \ 1. Grill and divide into serving platter. Each balls (airlecking) \ overning ripe beef with a spoonfuls on platter. Sprinkle each rounds \ over top. Slice the muffin cups and pourient of a 2-quart pan 13:29:01 `starwars 13:29:02 Gial Ackbar 13:29:40 gerlic? ouch, what's that? 13:31:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:52:05 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:01:29 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:02:47 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:03:55 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:06:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:07:24 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:24:17 -!- tromp has joined. 14:29:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:43:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:59:36 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 15:00:35 oh finally a good idea 15:03:45 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:11:06 b_jonas: does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes help? 15:11:20 Oh wait I guess you found that already, sorry. 15:11:21 int-e: yes, I looked at that 15:11:52 int-e: I'm not at home and only have two photos of the battery here. when I go home, I'll measure how thick the battery is, and find out which one it is 15:11:55 It is a great page though, I think. Worth recommending :) 15:12:06 as in, A27 or A23 15:12:42 I already bought an A23 in the shop, but it's a cheap one so it's not a big problem to have bought that. The problem might be if A27 is harder to find. 15:22:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:24:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:28:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:29:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:47:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:55:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:56:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:12:41 -!- tromp has joined. 16:17:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:25:20 -!- augur has joined. 16:32:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:14 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:45:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:53:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:54:10 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:55:07 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:02:13 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:02:48 -!- `^_^v has joined. 17:04:11 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 17:07:30 -!- tromp has joined. 17:11:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:14:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:25:56 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:26:52 -!- augur has joined. 17:38:23 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:41:12 I had a dream that there was a new olist, but I kept getting distracted from reading it. 17:42:26 that's normla 17:42:37 there's so many things on internet that it's very easy to get distracted 17:43:04 shachaf, I got distracted from reading olists completely years ago 17:43:45 Taneb: maybe it's time to get you ristracted hth 17:44:51 Eh, it wasn't really my thing 17:46:27 OK. 17:46:32 See any good cats lately? 17:50:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:51:15 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:01:19 -!- tromp has joined. 18:01:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:05:27 . o O ( there is no such thing ) 18:05:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:07:03 int-e, as a cat? 18:07:14 Makes sense 18:08:08 -!- zseri has joined. 18:08:29 Taneb: a good cat 18:12:36 int-e, that's a corollary of there is no such thing as a cat 18:12:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:13:37 Taneb: true, but I'd have trouble justifying that stronger statement. 18:14:20 int-e, it also resolves neatly Schrodinger's famous thought experiment 18:15:04 you mean the cat will be both dead and alive? 18:15:42 It's all a wild goose chase, the cat never existed in the first place 18:15:44 and while I'm being philosophical, is a dead cat still a cat? 18:18:52 shachaf: what do you think of http://thefw.com/files/2013/02/2uu34uG.jpg 18:19:09 int-e: itym "Do you like this?" hth 18:19:43 perhaps but I made a point of not writing it. 18:28:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:55:45 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:28:04 <\oren\> hmm, I need a mass-rename tool 19:28:19 mass-rename what? 19:28:23 <\oren\> files 19:28:34 rm 19:28:37 no wait 19:29:02 rm for RenaMe 19:29:15 unix has such nice logical executable names 19:29:22 ld for linker 19:29:32 <\oren\> liek suppose i have files named pokemon_1 pokemon_2, ... pokemon_6 i want to rename them to pocket_monsters_1 etc. 19:31:44 use the perl command-line rename tool. rename -n 's/kemon/cket_monster/' pokemon_[0-9] # -n means dry-run; first argument is perl snippet that must transform filename in place in $_ 19:33:01 or just bash magic. for s in pokemon_[0-9]; do echo mv -vi "$s" "pocket_monsters_${s##pokemon_}"; done # echo is for dry run 19:33:16 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:33:19 there are lots of other ways too of course 19:33:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:33:50 hth 19:34:08 -!- jaboja64 has joined. 19:34:55 often you want to make a backup copy of everything first, because mass renaming can go really wrong 19:36:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:36:37 -!- jaboja64 has changed nick to jaboja. 19:38:57 -!- imode has joined. 19:43:13 there is also a vim renamer 19:47:11 <\oren\> bash magic worked, not sure why we don't have the rename command 19:47:30 install it 19:47:44 or not 19:47:44 <\oren\> b_jonas: i'm not an admin 19:48:00 <\oren\> althpugh i could isntall it locally 19:48:26 meh, it's a stupid utility 19:48:31 might be best not installed actually 19:48:36 <\oren\> i did that with nano so that i would have the latest version 19:48:56 it provides brief syntax but too many opportunities for mistakes that are hard to fix 19:49:11 <\oren\> for some reason ubuntu hasn't updated nano in their repositories in a while 19:49:14 I've done complicated batch renamings (not with the perl rename tool, but in other ways) 19:49:43 <\oren\> so I had to download latest source and compile it 19:49:46 -!- tromp has joined. 19:53:09 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ shrugurhs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 19:54:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:02:55 mother fucker someone did it: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/11880/build-a-working-game-of-tetris-in-conways-game-of-life 20:05:16 nice 20:06:13 oddly enough that's far more exciting than regular logic design. 20:13:14 well they did use a rather overengineered method, i think 20:14:24 how would you have done it. 20:25:54 we have a working program, now it just needs to be golfed to death ;-) 20:26:58 Is there a VHDL to GoL compiler? :P 20:28:10 it probably wouldn't be hard to build. 20:28:13 using this method. 20:28:38 but you'd need to really strip out the metapixel to do any real golfing, which means you'd need to find something reasonably smaller. 20:43:59 -!- tromp has joined. 20:48:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:49:56 well they're only using a few settings for the metapixel, so that might be doable. 20:56:49 Psychonauts is free today: https://www.humblebundle.com/store/psychonauts 20:58:17 thank you shachaf. 21:03:15 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:03:17 Y'all should play it, it's great. 21:03:24 Or even if you don't, you can get it today and play it later. 21:04:20 I used to have a copy on PS2. loved that game. 21:04:23 super creepy. 21:04:27 and weird. 21:13:44 <\oren\> is there a better way to do tail -fn+0 21:14:44 Taneb: a good cat <-- http://narbonic.com/comic/july-30-august-4-2001/ 21:28:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:37:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:38:14 -!- tromp has joined. 21:42:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:47:10 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:48:44 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:53:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:25:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:32:23 -!- tromp has joined. 22:36:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:57:42 -!- tromp has joined. 23:02:51 -!- imode has joined. 23:03:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:07:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:14:12 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:21:03 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:29:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:30:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:36:03 -!- adu has joined. 23:36:43 <\oren\> oh shit the norks 23:44:27 -!- tromp has joined. 23:46:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:51:57 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:52:30 Do you think tomorrow's xkcd will appear early (compared to how late it's usually posted this year) so that it's before Huygens-Cassini's death? 23:57:54 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 2017-09-15: 00:00:49 -!- tromp has joined. 00:08:08 Magic the Gathering question: What does the stack look like to characters in the MtG universe? Do characters experience casting a spell, then someone else casting a spell and that second spell is faster somehow? 00:09:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:19:09 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:28:36 The stack has so much flavor. 00:33:34 -!- ATMunn has joined. 00:38:43 `mspalist Hiveswap + music released! 00:38:44 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mspalist: not found 00:38:48 `ls bin 00:38:49 ​` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \ 00:39:00 What's the list for Homestuck? 00:41:19 -!- augur has joined. 01:19:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:00:56 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:24:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:45:50 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:51:36 `5 w 02:51:41 1/2:ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping. \ hexchat//Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ icbm//ICBMs are Crumbling Building Miss 02:51:48 `? 4 02:51:48 ​`4 is equivalent to `5 , except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5. 02:51:54 `? 5 02:51:55 ​`5 is equivalent to repeating `` 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2. 02:51:57 `? 1 02:51:58 The 1 is just for disambiguation. 02:52:01 `? `1 02:52:02 ​`1 is equivalent to `` , except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. 02:52:13 `cat bin/2017 02:52:14 ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi 02:53:11 `le////rn `2017//Not confusingly not the obvious generalization of `1. 02:53:13 Learned '`2017': Not confusingly not the obvious generalization of `1. 03:02:28 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:22:04 Cale: Man, query language design is tricky. 03:22:47 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:15:31 -!- `^_^v has joined. 04:20:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:45:57 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:48:00 -!- augur has joined. 04:56:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:19:19 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:58:50 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:03:40 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:25:02 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:28:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:39:38 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:09:22 -!- erkin has joined. 07:38:32 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 07:42:22 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:36:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:37:20 -!- MDream has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:21:59 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:02:24 -!- adu has joined. 10:07:10 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 10:14:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:21:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:23:17 -!- tromp has joined. 10:53:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:01:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:05:25 -!- augur has joined. 11:16:00 -!- tromp has joined. 11:18:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:12:07 I still don't understand what's with people and bitfields. 12:13:21 People write all sorts of hundred file long macro packages for doing trivial operations you could do with just two &|^ bitwise ops and a shift. A lot of people try to do this for some reason. In C++ too, but also in other languages (that also have bit operations on arithmetic already trivially available). What the HECK is up with people? 12:14:15 What's SO wrong with just int stuff(int flags, ...) { if (flags & 1) { ... } else { ... } } that you need deep such abstractions for it 12:15:58 that eventually you can't just write stuff(0, ...); but have to write stuff(CONSTRUCT_BITFIELD(stuffmodule::stuff::argument::flags, flags = FLAGS({ stuffmodule::stuff::argument::flags::backwardsflag = (boolean)FALSE, defaults })), ...); and some similarly horrible syntax inside the function implementation 12:16:06 it seems so strange 12:25:13 @ask lambdabot how do you feel about moving back to NL? 12:25:13 Nice try ;) 12:26:55 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:29:19 @can lambdabot still do this? I forget 12:29:19 Maybe you meant: wn run faq 12:29:41 oh maybe that was faq 12:29:43 @faq 12:29:43 https://wiki.haskell.org/FAQ 12:29:45 ah 12:47:17 FireFly: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/883f1107abc5029e668ef1b677ed0758292977f7 ... the joke had grown old. 12:47:31 Yeah, I thought it was removed, just checking :p 12:47:47 not necessarily disagreeign 12:47:51 it's still in the hackage version anyway. 13:18:36 -!- augur has joined. 13:22:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:37:52 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:40:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:49:03 -!- MDude has joined. 14:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:05:30 This feels absurd. 14:06:43 I just reported a bug in a tracker about a day selection input calendar popdown widget in a browser-based interface. I'm clicking on a day in the calendar and the interface chooses a different day one month after that instead. This seems repeatable. 14:06:57 I sent two screenshots and a description. 14:07:28 -!- tromp has joined. 14:07:57 I mean, I've reported stupid bugs before, like back ten years ago when dc -e "" segfaulted (or something like that, I'm not sure) 14:08:15 but this one is funny 14:13:57 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:35:04 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:39:54 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:43:24 -!- Guest28588 has changed nick to ^arcade_droid. 14:43:32 -!- ^arcade_droid has quit (Changing host). 14:43:32 -!- ^arcade_droid has joined. 14:44:53 -!- deltab has joined. 14:50:50 -!- zseri has joined. 15:14:39 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯/_(ツ)_\¯). 15:22:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:22:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:30:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:33:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:50:59 -!- augur has joined. 16:02:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:37 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:43:13 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 16:50:47 -!- augur has joined. 16:55:12 -!- SoniEx2 has joined. 16:55:30 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 16:55:30 -!- Soni has quit (Excess Flood). 16:56:03 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:17:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:39:37 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:00:14 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:03:41 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:07:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:10:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:39:30 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 18:43:12 -!- FreeFull has quit. 19:01:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:14:31 Cale: Why are contravariant functors so popular? 19:16:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:02 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bbl). 19:27:47 -!- imode has joined. 19:27:58 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:32:32 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:34:12 -!- tromp has joined. 19:38:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:51:05 -!- tromp has joined. 20:02:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:16:01 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53080&oldid=53078 * Zseri * (+185) new operator ~ 20:23:49 [wiki] [[Talk:Point operator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53081 * Rdebath * (+343) /* Workable point operator. */ new section 20:24:40 -!- `^_^v has joined. 20:31:22 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel). 20:37:45 [wiki] [[Tick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53082&oldid=50772 * Rdebath * (+54) TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution 20:44:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:05:56 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:08:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:12:02 -!- adu has joined. 21:12:02 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 21:28:48 -!- tromp has joined. 21:32:40 shachaf: Because you take what you can get, and there are a lot of accidental ones which happen to change the direction of the arrows 21:33:32 Cale: There's this discussion on the categories mailing list where they talk about the joke that covariant functors should be thought of as contravariant functors on the opposite category. 21:33:41 hahaha 21:33:48 I don't know about that 21:33:48 Which is only a sort of joke? 21:34:01 Well, you have Yoneda as well 21:34:07 Anyway I often see people taking two abstract categories C and D, and saying "let F be a contravariant functor from C to D" 21:34:10 Or something. 21:36:05 It obviously doesn't make so much difference when the categories are perfectly abstract 21:37:40 There are all these branches of mathematics and the direction of the arrows in their respective categories is somewhat an accident of how we managed to define the relationships we wanted to talk about using functions. 21:39:45 <* Taneb> now owns a copy of Introduction to the Theory of Numbers 21:39:51 Now I can finally figure out what a number is 21:46:22 At least in theory 21:51:12 Or at least asymptotically 21:58:15 I guess presheaves are contravariant for some reason. 21:58:23 Is it fundamental or is it a coincidence? 21:58:47 "I always tell my students that since category theory reduces all of mathematics to the study of arrows, and the only mistake you can make with an arrow is to get confused about which way it's pointing, they should expect to spend many hours confused about exactly this." 22:07:16 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:07:37 -!- Deewiant has joined. 22:10:34 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:16:25 Now I made up word game on MIX computer 22:22:58 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 22:32:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:35:06 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:54:07 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:57:22 -!- augur has joined. 22:59:48 -!- ATMunn has joined. 23:29:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:45:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 2017-09-16: 00:11:38 -!- sleffy has joined. 01:08:51 -!- imode has joined. 01:10:07 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:33:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:37:53 -!- imode has joined. 01:37:54 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:59:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:19:42 -!- SoniEx2 has changed nick to Soni. 02:29:17 -!- sleffy has joined. 03:02:21 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:02:53 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:09:38 -!- `^_^v has joined. 03:11:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 03:14:15 -!- `^_^v has joined. 03:15:22 -!- imode has joined. 03:37:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:37:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:37:41 -!- augur has joined. 03:41:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:52:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:57:10 -!- augur has joined. 04:27:35 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:46:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:49:42 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:52:33 I made the calculation by computer to figure out when a deceptive attack is better in GURPS, and to figure out whether a improved defense or double defense is better; in most cases improved defense is better, but not always. This does not consider all needing considerations though (including not knowing your opponent's attacking/defending scores, as well as other things too). 05:21:36 -!- diginet_ has joined. 05:21:58 -!- puckipedia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:22:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:22:34 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:22:34 -!- diginet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:22:35 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 05:22:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:27:46 -!- puckipedia has joined. 05:28:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:36:38 One possible possible thing that could be done with the punch card programs loading with MIX could be for all of the cards other than the first and last card to be punched "0" in the first character position (for the first and last cards it will be blank), so that if the cards are mixed up, you can easily recover them by using a thin stick in the first zero position 05:37:02 The two cards it won't go through are then the first and last card, which it should be easily to tell apart. The other cards can be placed in any order and the program will still work. 05:37:18 -!- GeekDude has joined. 05:37:28 Do you like this? 05:45:49 (This will not work if the program includes additional cards of data after the end of the program, although it may be possible to use different colours of cards (if you have different colours of cards available) to help that a bit) 05:54:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:54:59 -!- augur has joined. 05:59:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:02:40 -!- sleffy has joined. 06:17:13 -!- betaveros has joined. 06:28:54 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:33:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:35:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:36:44 -!- augur has joined. 07:16:29 Have you launched Russell's teapot yet? 07:23:03 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 07:53:41 -!- erkin has joined. 07:54:57 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:21 -!- erkin has joined. 08:50:14 Cale: Why are contravariant functors so popular? <-- people like being contrarian hth 08:52:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 08:52:56 helloerjan 08:53:00 do you understand baseball twh 09:00:45 no hth 09:01:06 . o O ( understanding baseball is not cricket ) 09:01:57 what about the "cricket is not croquet" thing 09:02:02 that one was p. advanced for me 09:02:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:38 -!- augur has joined. 09:02:58 i did at one time understand croquet enough to play it. 09:03:24 with flamingos? 09:03:32 sadly only with clubs 09:03:54 are you a member of any fan clubs 09:04:11 i don't think so 09:04:13 For example the Andrej Bauer fan club? 09:04:27 i don't even remember who that is, even if it rings a bell 09:04:34 Hmm. 09:04:57 probably because you've mentioned him before 09:05:08 and i googled him 09:05:12 I'm sure you've encountered him elsewise. 09:05:21 and then promptly forgot what he was. 09:06:31 "Andrej Bauer (rojen 11. maj 1971) je profesor računalniške matematike na Fakulteti za matematiko in fiziko Univerze v Ljubljani v Sloveniji." 09:06:51 (that's the only wikipedia hit on the front page) 09:07:06 I sometimes think it would be interesting to see pros play certain variants of baseball, for example, if each base were worth a run (or some varying number of runs), making bunts much more valuable. 09:07:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:07:53 They should vary the rules more, it would be interesting 09:08:13 . o O ( are bunts the same as wickets ) 09:08:53 seems not 09:08:59 bunting is where you hold the bat with both hands and hit the ball a short distance to make the opposing team run forward to get it 09:09:47 hm food -> 09:10:26 Cale obviously understands this game much better than I do. 09:11:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:19:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:23:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:36:53 -!- lezsakdomi has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:41:14 -!- augur has joined. 09:45:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:49:33 -!- augur has joined. 09:51:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:59:00 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 10:24:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:24:18 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:28:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:31:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:10:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:12:35 -!- zseri has joined. 11:13:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:22:04 -!- S1 has joined. 11:36:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:38:08 -!- Mayoi has joined. 11:53:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 12:17:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:25:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:28:05 -!- Soni has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:28:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:36:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:40:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:58:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 13:01:02 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:01:12 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:03:24 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 13:03:40 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:13:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:14:12 -!- Cale has joined. 13:15:15 -!- imode has joined. 13:52:02 -!- J_Arcane has quit. 14:00:43 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:11:56 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:13:34 -!- Deewiant has joined. 14:14:05 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:28:40 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:33:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:34:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:38:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:53:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:06:19 * imode wonders what Wireworld would look like with a von neumann neighborhood. 15:07:49 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:09:42 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:10:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:12:43 -!- tromp has joined. 15:52:28 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:52:32 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 16:19:45 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:00:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:08:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:46:03 -!- Mayoi has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Got SIGABRT, dying...). 19:54:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:03:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:04:17 zzo38: re MIX programs, I don't think it's true that you can permute cards of the program other than the first and last card around to any order. 20:05:10 zzo38: in fact I think even in a typical program the assembler will often emit cards that rewrite a word that was written by a previous card, when you define a backreference that a far earlier part of the program has referred to. 20:05:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:06:04 zzo38: this is when the MIXAL assembler runs on a MIX machine, which usually has only as much memory as the program will run on. it might not apply to your assembler, which can emit cards differently and uses more RAM. 20:07:23 zzo38: note that MMIX is trickier because its loader xors values when multiple values are loaded to the same memory word. you could do something like that in MIX too, by adding values. You have to be careful with overflows, but that doesn't cause many problems with just backreferences, 20:08:39 zzo38: and at least the overflow behavior is well-defined and deterministic even if you do tricks with ORG. However, this would require zeroing the entire memory first, which takes a few more instructions in the loader, and is not as natural as in MMIX, where you zero the memory anyway to protect from other processes' secrets. 20:20:10 -!- zseri has joined. 20:23:21 -!- Pazzaz has joined. 20:40:03 -!- `^_^v has joined. 20:43:28 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:09:57 wob_jonas: I think you are right about MIXAL, yes, but my own assembler is different and outputs the entire program at the end after two passes. 21:10:45 So yes it does depend on the assembler and on the computer running it. 21:25:04 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:03:55 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 22:06:45 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:45:46 Using ais523 teminology, would LoL have more headroom than Dota2? 23:04:09 Why does the golf course have dragons? 23:04:17 Sgeo: What do you mean by headroom? 23:06:11 http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html 23:06:25 Being able to make suboptimal decisions without necessarily instantly failing 23:06:42 "There are two possible extremes for the scale here. One is "no matter who you are or which choice you make, it won't affect your odds of winning the game". There are two ways to look at this situation. One is that the game is "perfectly balanced" with respect to character creation. The other is that the choice is entirely meaningless; if nobody gains an advantage from either choice, then either success or failure has nothing to do with the 23:06:42 skill of the player, or else the various options play so similarly that the choice is entirely cosmetic. This situation has a very high headroom; the player can mess around with their strategy at will without any risk of the game limiting their experimentation. 23:06:42 The other extreme is "one of these choices will guarantee you victory; the other will guarantee you are defeated". This is definitely a meaningful choice, now! However, it can be seen as unsatisfactory for other reasons: the choice is meaningful, but it's a false choice, in that only one option is reasonable to take. An unspoiled player may pick the wrong one, and lose, if the choice is not well-signposted. Or a player might want to pick one 23:06:47 choice (because it fits in more with how they want to play the game, for instance), but be forced to take the other in order to have a chance of success. This situation has zero headroom; a player must follow the path that the game dictates for them in order to have any chance of survival." 23:06:48 Sgeo: Ah, I think that's somewhat true. 23:07:33 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:08:20 I haven't played either game extensively, but I have watched a bunch of both, and it seems that in Dota2, the abilities tend to have much sharper effects. It doesn't necessarily mean the game is overall more challenging, but locally the play seems much more unforgiving. 23:10:04 I think I'd like LoL but the business model bothers me 23:10:31 There can also be the challenge game. And, for the character creation, you can try to win with every combination, some may be more difficult than the others 23:19:40 I think that idea of the headroom though it can help I suppose. The game design can be consider such thing, although for character definition at start of game and also with challenge game, there is the other aspect of that too. 23:30:36 -!- erdic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:56:17 Dota 2 has an All Hero Challenge where the goal is to win atleast one game with every character. It's a pretty nice way to add some variety to your games 23:56:21 https://dota2.gamepedia.com/All-Hero_Challenge 2017-09-17: 00:10:01 -!- Pazzaz has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:19:09 -!- augur has joined. 00:23:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:59:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:06:41 -!- augur has joined. 01:15:12 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 01:17:16 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:18:41 -!- augur has joined. 01:25:34 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:27:16 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:16:21 -!- `^_^v has joined. 02:42:32 -!- moriarty has joined. 02:42:38 howdy 02:42:52 Sal' 02:43:06 That looks like a suspiciously familiar nick and greeting... 02:43:08 * pikhq squints 02:53:43 * moriarty burps 02:58:01 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:59:21 -!- MDude has joined. 03:00:05 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: [insert creative quit message here]). 03:09:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:10:13 hola 03:15:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:19:43 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:26:40 -!- imode has joined. 03:33:54 -!- moriarty has left. 03:38:55 -!- sleffy has joined. 03:42:25 * Sgeo goes to try Gwent 03:42:35 Not sure why I see MtG people expressing enjoyment of Gwent 03:45:53 Why not? 03:47:01 `hi Cale 03:47:01 Hi Cale. Hale. 03:47:15 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:48:15 `hi T is a terrible letter. 03:48:15 Hi T is a terrible letter.. His a terrible letter.. 03:48:55 `hi T is a terrible letter. 03:48:56 Hi T is a terrible letter.. His a terrible letter.. 03:49:01 * Sgeo glares 03:52:43 `cat bin/hi 03:52:44 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Hi $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/H/; } else { s/^./H/; } print "$_."; 03:59:37 `cat bin/thanks 03:59:38 ​#!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_."; 03:59:54 Same general shape. 04:00:16 `thanks ants 04:00:17 Thanks, ants. Thants. 04:14:41 Have you try to play a poker game using the tarot cards? If so, you will have to figure out the kind of hand and ranking of the hands. I made up such a list (including "impure", "semi-pure", "pure", and "all-trump" hands), but does not specify the ranking of hand, yet. Do you know what ranking it will be? 04:26:04 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:51:03 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:01:31 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 05:04:39 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:07:22 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHd3xfDzTg8 awesome scene, props to the seiyuu 05:07:37 <\oren\> seriously, epic rant there 05:38:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:39:26 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:49:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:52:03 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:54:04 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 06:52:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:52:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:48:45 -!- imode has joined. 07:58:48 Is there a kind of encryption that is design to make decryption very slow even if you know the key and algorithm and have a lot of parallel and/or quantum computing? 07:59:36 -!- erkin has joined. 08:10:20 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:25:26 I read about the deniable encryption and have various ideas. One document says: As soon as you have over 4 pass-phrases, the excuse "I can't recall" or "there's nothing else there" starts to sound highly plauseable. 08:26:15 I think that you could even make "I can't recall" to be one of the actual passwords for one of the layers, too. 08:27:45 (Or to be a kind of self-destruct mechanism password? You could even put in data which is meant to take advantage of vulnerabilities and damage the government's computer) 08:30:00 You could also frame yourself for something you didn't do (but the police won't know that until they investigate) and encrypt that. 08:30:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:31:32 Multiple hidden computers (with MAC spoofing if needed, non-internet, etc) can also be in use. 08:38:16 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 08:54:35 [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53083&oldid=53003 * Zzo38 * (+216) The exception 08:55:49 [wiki] [[Complode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53084&oldid=53083 * Zzo38 * (+20) 09:23:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:31:05 -!- S1 has joined. 09:48:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:00:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:05:58 <\oren\> have you seen the groundbreaking research into whether cats are liquid or solid? 10:06:02 <\oren\> http://www.rheology.org/sor/publications/rheology_b/RB2014Jul.pdf#page=16 10:08:32 awesome 10:09:13 <\oren\> heassumptionofincom- 10:09:13 <\oren\> pressibilitymayalsofailforoldercats,whichcanacquire 10:09:31 <\oren\> god damn it i hate PDF;s that don't copy right 10:22:26 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:26:00 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:46:19 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:54:12 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:04:50 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:13:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:29:18 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:34:02 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Uh this isn't supposed to happen). 14:34:10 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 14:34:46 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest36146. 14:35:45 -!- Guest36146 has quit (Client Quit). 14:44:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:45:19 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 14:51:26 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Quit: Uh this isn't supposed to happen). 14:53:18 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 14:53:41 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest9724. 14:55:53 -!- Guest9724 has changed nick to Bowserinator. 14:55:55 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 14:55:55 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 14:58:16 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:29:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:29:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:29:52 " There can also be the challenge game. And, for the character creation, you can try to win with every combination, some may be more difficult than the others" => sure, that happens. 15:31:16 there are games where people challenge themselves to win with each of the different starting character classes. I know of at least three: nethack (everyone agrees that some classes are more difficult, eg. valkyrie is one of the easiest for beginners, wizard is easiest for advanced players, some roles are hard for everyone), 15:33:06 one of the 3d fps games from id software with three classes (I don't remember the name), or even Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels which has two playable characters 15:34:54 This also seems to happen with some versus games: in Age of Mythology and extensions, in two players playing against each other (even at competitive level), sometimes challenge themselves or each other to play with a different god than their favourite 15:35:30 the favorite varies, but there are some gods that seem weaker and almost no player uses them as their favorite, even though it's not clear if there's a strongest god everyone agrees on 15:36:02 This is a great way to make the games less repetitive, because the different starting characters add not just extra difficulty, but different styles of play. 15:39:15 " Is there a kind of encryption that is design to make decryption very slow even if you know the key and algorithm and have a lot of parallel and/or quantum computing?" => yes 15:39:28 well, no, not necessarily if you know the key 15:40:41 (1) there's public-key encryption that's designed to be hard to break if you have the public key but not the private key, people started to design some because most of the currently popular public-key encryption is easy to break with a good quantum computer. 15:41:16 (2) there's one-way functions that are designed to be slow to compute (and practically impossible to reverse compute), for hashing passwords, 15:42:07 (3) and there's also one-way functions designed to be very slow to compute even if you have lots of parallel computing (also quantum, but quantum doesn't really help much for any of this anyway), 15:43:14 proposed as a sort of time-lock to lock a symmetric key for when you want to release encrypted documents in such a way that people will be able to decrypt them eventually, but not soon enough, without a trusted third party, because this would have some practical uses. 15:44:12 😸 15:44:22 I haven't heard of any public-key cipher where parallel computing doesn't help, and that seems like it would be impossible, but you have have public key cipher that's hard enough to break even with all the parallel computing people will ever have. 15:44:53 And of course none of this cryptography stuff is proven, because we don't even know P=NP, all of them depend on various very reasonable hardness assumptions. 15:46:55 To clarify, (2) is used because if you hash passwords with a fast to compute one-way function and someone somehow steals the hashed password database, then they can do a dictionary attack using parallel computing, and (2) makes this somewhat less practical. 15:48:24 (3) is used because if you just use a (good) symmetric key encryption and reveal nothing about the key, then it could take so much work that nobody will be able to decrypt it, or the key could be too short so people can decrypt it in reasonable time, or anything between, but in either case parallel computing speeds up breaking the key almost linear 15:48:25 ly with the number of parallel computers, 15:49:03 so (3) is a solution to make the problem take about a fixed number of time regardless of how much parallel computers (how much money) you throw at the decryption. 15:50:47 "have you seen the groundbreaking research into whether cats are liquid or solid?" => do you mean like bonsaikitten? 15:53:58 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:58:25 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 16:01:04 -!- zseri has joined. 16:03:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:04:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:09:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:15:33 `? pho 16:15:34 Phở is a Vietnamese soup invented by lyyyyyyynn to stress-test implementations of Unicode combining characters. 16:15:41 => http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/hunting-man 16:31:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:48:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:51:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:51:54 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 16:53:30 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:02:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:16:25 wob_jonas: In addition to the character classes there can be multi dimensions, such as classes and the species of your character, or classes and species and gender, or even more (which you would have to multiply together if all combinations are allowed) 17:16:30 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: up up and away! (brb, hopefully)). 17:16:55 zzo38: sure 17:17:07 and people care about that in some games 17:17:25 heck, it even goes down to how I'd like to be able to make good mono-black and good mono-blue decks in M:tG 17:19:36 O, yes, there is the stuff like that too I suppose. (Especially if you are playing Commander, where color identity can matter; but you can do that even if you don't play Commander.) Anyways I meant single-player games in my comments anyways 17:19:48 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:20:24 I don't play commander, although I like singleton/highlander decks as a challenge (whether 100 or 60 cards) 17:21:39 To see if it is the ordinary singleton game or the "functional singleton" 17:22:04 some constructed decks can be made singleton quite nicely, like decks where half of the non-land cards are black kill spells, because there really are that many different good kill spells; some decks really don't work like that 17:22:39 (And then, there is the version including the basic lands that must be the single, too) 17:24:20 zzo38: ordinary singleton. no card other than basics repeated with same English name throughout deck and sideboard (or throughout two decks and sideboards for a team as an extra), but a Terramorphic Expanse and an Evolving Wilds is fine 17:28:30 I should stop moving lambdabot to a new VM every 6 months :P 17:28:51 @google this may be broken again? 17:28:53 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-18/gartmanthis-may-be-one-most-important-days-future-equity-markets 17:28:53 Title: Gartman: "This May Be One Of The Most Important Days In The Future Of Equity ... 17:29:02 well, time will tell 17:30:01 *tic* 17:31:25 > 1 17:31:28 1 17:31:55 And, about slow decryption, I did mean symmetric algorithms 17:34:14 @dice 5d6 17:34:14 int-e: 17 17:34:21 @djinn a -> b -> a 17:34:22 f a _ = a 17:34:37 @hoogle id 17:34:38 Prelude id :: a -> a 17:34:38 Data.Function id :: a -> a 17:34:38 Control.Category id :: Category cat => cat a a 17:34:52 is there any other external program that I usually forget, hmm 17:34:58 @type 1 17:35:00 Num p => p 17:36:45 @pl \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:36:45 (line 1, column 23): 17:36:45 unexpected '{' 17:36:45 expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input 17:36:51 @pl \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:36:51 (line 1, column 23): 17:36:51 unexpected '{' 17:36:51 expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input 17:36:54 @type \x->\a->\b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:36:55 error: parse error on input ‘->\’ 17:37:07 @type \x=>\a=>\b=>case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:37:08 error: parse error on input ‘=>\’ 17:37:19 uh, whatever, haskell 17:37:37 type \x a b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:37:38 @type \x a b->case x of {None => b; Some(y) => a(y);} 17:37:39 @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {None -> b; Some y -> a y;} 17:37:40 error: parse error on input ‘=>’ 17:37:41 error: 17:37:41 Not in scope: data constructor ‘None’ 17:37:41 Perhaps you meant one of these: 17:37:56 @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;} 17:37:57 Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p 17:38:02 @type \x a b->case x of {None -> b; Some y -> a y} 17:38:04 error: 17:38:04 Not in scope: data constructor ‘None’ 17:38:05 Perhaps you meant one of these: 17:38:07 err. 17:38:11 thanks zzo38 17:38:20 @pl id 17:38:21 id 17:38:29 @pl \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of {Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y;} 17:38:29 (line 1, column 29): 17:38:29 unexpected '{' 17:38:29 expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input 17:38:35 @pl \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y; 17:38:36 (line 1, column 39): 17:38:36 unexpected '>' 17:38:36 expecting operator 17:38:47 @type \x -> \a -> \b -> case x of Nothing -> b; Just y -> a y; 17:38:49 Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p 17:39:04 @pl doesn't like me 17:39:05 doesn't like me 17:39:17 @unpl flip id 17:39:17 (\ x y -> y x) 17:39:25 @unpl flip const 17:39:25 (\ x y -> y) 17:39:30 @unpl const id 17:39:30 (\ _ x -> x) 17:39:46 I didn't think @pl does pattern matching. 17:39:48 hah 17:40:06 @pl \a b c -> b c a 17:40:07 flip flip 17:40:13 int-e: what does it do then? only already pointfree replacements like library functions? 17:40:19 oh wait 17:40:46 @pl f Nothing a b = b; f (Just y) a b = a y; 17:40:46 (line 1, column 18): 17:40:46 unexpected ';' 17:40:47 expecting letter or digit, variable, "(", operator or end of input 17:40:59 not that either? 17:41:04 @pl f (Just y) a b = a y 17:41:05 (line 1, column 17): 17:41:05 unexpected " " 17:41:05 expecting operator 17:41:09 what 17:41:21 @pl f y a b = a y 17:41:22 f = (const .) . flip id 17:41:28 how does this work? 17:41:37 it doesn't 17:41:47 you, the world, and the math are mistaken 17:42:05 @djinn Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p 17:42:05 f a b c = 17:42:05 case a of 17:42:05 Nothing -> c 17:42:05 Just d -> b d 17:42:16 @@ @pl @djinn Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p 17:42:16 (line 1, column 39): 17:42:16 unexpected '>' 17:42:16 expecting operator 17:43:07 @pl really only knows abstraction and application and a few library functions 17:43:39 quintopia: https://www.xkcd.com/298/ 17:43:41 and if it sees f x y z = t, it turns that into f = \x y z -> t 17:44:46 Hoogle probably knows the answer though 17:44:52 @hoogle Maybe t -> (t -> p) -> p -> p 17:44:53 Prelude maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b 17:44:53 Data.Maybe maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b 17:44:53 Data.Strict.Maybe maybe :: b -> (a -> b) -> Maybe a -> b 17:47:00 In https://www.xkcd.com/298/ , did black hat deliberately say "so cute" with a heart-shaped letter "o"? 17:47:11 Good old XKCD 17:47:32 `? rock 17:47:33 rock? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:47:33 `? xkcd 17:47:34 xkcd ([ɪkskɑsede]) is a webcomic that updates every M/W/F. 17:47:35 `? xkcq 17:47:36 xkcq? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:49:12 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53085&oldid=52862 * Zzo38 * (+301) 17:56:10 `? hammer 17:56:11 hammer? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:56:45 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:58:41 -!- MDude has joined. 18:03:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:03:11 @pl \x y z -> if x then y else z 18:03:12 if' 18:03:38 hahaha 18:03:39 wob_jonas: that's the one bit of haskell syntax beyond application and abstraction I know about that @pl actually parses. 18:03:50 but the treatment is a bit... silly. 18:04:09 @pl \x -> x 18:04:09 id 18:04:12 (if' is not a standard operator) 18:04:18 @pl \x -> x {- hi -} 18:04:18 id 18:04:36 at least it parses comments, unlike some modules 18:04:53 @djinn a -> a {- hi -} 18:04:54 Cannot parse command 18:04:58 @djinn a -> a 18:04:58 f a = a 18:05:22 @kind a -> a {- hi -} 18:05:24 error: Not in scope: type variable ‘a’ 18:05:24 error: Not in scope: type variable ‘a’ 18:06:05 what 18:06:17 @kind foreach a. a -> a 18:06:20 error: 18:06:20 Illegal symbol '.' in type 18:06:20 Perhaps you meant to write 'forall . '? 18:06:29 @kind forall a. a -> a 18:06:31 * 18:06:38 @djinn forall a. a -> a 18:06:39 f a = a 18:06:46 @kind forall a. a -> a {- hi -} 18:06:49 * 18:06:51 @djinn forall a. a -> a {- hi -} 18:06:52 Cannot parse command 18:07:13 typical. it's a malicious djinn that tries to interpret every comment you say as a wish. 18:08:42 "Hey, Jim! Look what I found! A real wish-fulfilling djinn!" "Jim is looking, your wish is fulfilled. Goodbye." 18:09:17 s/fulfilling/granting/ 18:09:22 -!- MDead has joined. 18:10:05 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:10:09 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 18:11:09 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:11:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:12:09 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 18:12:40 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:19:36 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:28:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:32:26 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:35:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:41:14 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:58:20 -!- Cale has joined. 19:14:23 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:16:33 Once I dreamt in a hotel someone had just exited an elevator on the third floor and I entered the same one intend to go to the fourth floor, but the only button was one labeled "Elevator" (there was no open/close button either) 19:16:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:22:45 Did that button take the elevator to its own position? 19:23:09 [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53086 * Rottytooth * (+210) question about Lenguage 19:23:31 No, it took it to a secret floor. 19:24:40 [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53087&oldid=53086 * Rottytooth * (+98) forgot to sign 19:26:23 In there they had some other elevators, but there seem no call button, but I figured out, the elevators are called by attempting to pry open the doors by hand. Inside these elevators they have two sets of floor buttons, as well as open, close, alarm, telephone, cellular phone, two diamonds, and four arrows (up, down, left, right). 19:28:35 What do the diamonds do? 19:29:22 I don't know 19:30:44 (one hollow diamond and one filled diamond) 19:32:45 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:33:18 zzo38: secret floor like https://www.xkcd.com/288/ ? 19:34:40 or like the space station in Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator? 19:36:22 I think not like those thing 19:41:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:41:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 19:41:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:53:56 The solid diamond is probably a secondary shift key, for extra functions with fewer keys. That's how the symbol is used on one of the brands of programming calculators. 19:54:13 Wait, which brand is that? 19:57:17 TI. newer TI programmable calculators like TI-89 19:59:01 And this seems like a new feature, the previous TI programmables didn't have it. 20:00:31 This doesn't explain what the hollow diamond does though. 20:01:34 My TI-92 calculator also has a solid diamond like that too 20:01:58 yes, the TI-92 and the TI-89 are very similar 20:02:25 they're the same generation, one of them just has a bigger keypad with a qwerty alphabetic set of keys 20:15:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:26 [wiki] [[Talk:Lenguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53088&oldid=53087 * Zzo38 * (+162) 20:55:22 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:55:33 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 20:56:49 . o O ( Quern was pretty good, though also a tad buggy... savegames don't store all state, with consequences ranging from annoying (having to redo something that you had already done) to, in one case just before the end of the game, closing a door that you cannot open again, locking you in and making the game impossible to finish. (This is the Linux version, but that really shouldn't matter... 20:56:55 ...(unity engine).) ) 20:57:26 fungot, do you know glitches about saving games? 20:57:26 wob_jonas: in this fallacy, t-rex? 20:57:56 hint-e 20:58:05 Did you get Psychonauts when it was free the other day? 20:58:29 shachaf: I saw that, but there was no point. 20:58:53 (I already own a copy, have played it through a few years ago.) 20:58:54 No point? 20:58:58 Oh. 21:00:29 Other games also have some glitches about saving games (once someone complained about a MegaZeux game they were making where the robots started moving in the wrong direction if the quicksave key is pushed; since I have previously examined the MegaZeux source codes (in order to modify it, mainly), I have been able to identify exactly which subroutine is causing this problem). 21:01:26 Some VMs are designed to avoid problems with save games, and/or may just have their own save game function anyways (MegaZeux does this). RogueVM is my own design and one of its feature is specifically the design to avoid problem with save games. 21:01:48 @bot 21:01:48 :) 21:01:59 Yes, savegame glitches are popular. Ones where some of the state isn't restored when you reload are the easiest, but there are also crazy ones people get by interrupting the save to slow eprom on older game consoles that didn't make the saves atomic.. 21:02:00 @google haskell 21:02:02 https://www.haskell.org/ 21:02:31 wob_jonas: I wasn't doing a speedrun :P 21:03:02 (nor was I trying to root my PC.) 21:04:05 (Unlike Z-machine, RogueVM has "display segments", so it is like having video memory, but it isn't actually video memory but rather normal memory that uses a display program to display it, if the display bit is set for that segment.) 21:05:09 Do you like RogueVM? 21:10:53 Do you like this? 21:11:11 Do YOU like this? 21:11:40 do you like this? 21:12:53 int-e: the save glitches can help complete the game easier even if you're not speedrunning. Although it can feel like cheating. There's a particularly easy one save glitch in the Commander Keen series that lets you skip many of the levels. 21:15:53 (In the second trilogy only.) 21:16:38 (It's quite funny, basically it forgets to save or restore the fact that you're dead, so you save when you're dead and reload and end up in an undead state.) 21:18:01 "In a similar vein, Keen can see what is offscreen by saving his game" -- I think that's the only one I knew 21:19:00 [wiki] [[User talk:Moon]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53089&oldid=47024 * HereToAnnoy * (+395) still working on hellborne? 21:19:41 Many computer games I have played you can save game, but if you do the restoring is at the beginning of that level (with your score, arrows, etc as they were at the start of the level). Some game (such as Apogee's Arctic Adventure) will automatically do that for you (and actually only allows saving on the map anyways). 21:20:02 Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure seems to have a bug; if you save on a bonus level, it restores on the wrong level. 21:20:52 -!- imode has joined. 21:33:28 -!- Cale has joined. 21:43:49 dumb furry artists draw themselves hanging from power cables https://2.bp.blogspot.com/O65fmrug_jnuU7HDonP2MllLQBJ_hF3G1QF4Fxf1KPUlWcs5tUBkhh1YfLwihBd_NMyd7xOniMUY=s0 21:44:10 without realizing how power cables work and why birds can do it and why cows can't 21:54:35 [wiki] [[WCDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53090&oldid=53079 * HereToAnnoy * (+0) /* JavaScript interpreter (7 bytes) */ is now 6 bytes 21:55:34 izabera: . o O ( she should should probably lose some weight before trying that trick ) 21:58:00 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:58:14 sometimes I look at things like that and remember how good I have it. 21:58:37 -!- Cale has joined. 21:58:58 Then people who draw that should learn better; you can write to them such notice 21:59:20 izabera: that does look like she's sitting on just one wire, not multiple wires. and cows supposedly can't even go down a stairs or something. 22:03:18 the way the authors of that tetris-in-GoL thing accomplished their goal is nothing short of amazing. 22:03:48 mulitple metapixels following different rules.. damn. 22:05:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:10:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:10:07 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:10:43 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:11:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:11:36 -!- Cale has joined. 22:19:52 Who is ? I have received attempts to my server (from 88.116.57.10) attempting to relay mail to them (always rejected). 22:20:05 imode: I have not seen such thing? 22:21:19 zzo38: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/11880/build-a-working-game-of-tetris-in-conways-game-of-life 22:21:27 enjoy. 22:22:35 OK thanks 22:26:20 -!- kurolox has joined. 22:26:30 Hey, fizzie 22:26:32 long time no see 22:33:51 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:40:02 -!- kurolox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:54:07 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:56:59 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:26:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:42:35 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2017-09-18: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:20 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:04:32 -!- `^_^v has joined. 00:12:51 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:14:42 -!- `^_^v has joined. 00:14:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 01:20:05 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:02:42 <\oren\> At least SOMEBODY made a good fighter combat game for PC even if it wasn't bandai namco 02:05:23 why would it have been bandai namco? 02:06:11 <\oren\> alercah: they make ace combat series 02:06:56 <\oren\> but the only title for PC is "ace combat assault horizon" which is total crap 02:07:33 <\oren\> http://store.steampowered.com/app/242130/ 02:08:18 <\oren\> but apparently somebody made a proper recreation of the classic ace combat games 02:08:30 -!- Cale has joined. 02:48:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:59:37 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:02:37 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:07:54 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:23:23 Why does bash believe that the only files I will want to open with Firefox are HTML files? It isn't; sometimes I want to load PDF files, SVG files, and sometimes even plain text files (mainly for printing), too. 03:24:38 Maybe because Firefox is often called a "web browser". 03:24:59 Yes, but I also use it for PDF (since I don't have another program for PDF) 03:25:16 Perhaps the authors of the computer code that things you only want to open HTML files have never used Firefox. 03:25:33 They only made their decision based on the one-line description of the program. 03:25:57 I could probably alter it easily enough, although still there it is. 03:26:30 The people who make it should learn better; you can write to them such notice 03:27:19 it's not bash, it's whoever writes the default completions 03:27:21 I don't know who made that part of the code 03:27:37 bash completions are customizable 03:27:39 though very arcane 03:27:51 alercah: Yes, but I thought they were written by the same people 03:28:00 I dunno 03:28:04 I try not to assume that sort of thing 03:28:08 it's a separate package on debian 03:28:41 O, OK, I did not know that 03:37:11 Do you know if it is possible to make bash completions for some commands to be able to use SQL queries for the completions? (I have a shell script where this would be useful) 03:37:52 -!- `^_^v has joined. 03:37:52 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 03:38:33 I think so 03:38:41 I believe you can call arbitrary binaries 03:38:56 Yes, it's just a bash function. 03:42:43 Specifically the following SQL query is what I use: select moz_bookmarks.title from moz_places, moz_bookmarks on moz_places.id = moz_bookmarks.fk where not hidden; I use it with another shell script which makes a different SQL query on the same database in order to load Firefox with the named bookmark as the loaded URL. (I name all of my bookmarks with single words making them easily to type) 03:51:14 zzo38: What database software do you like, other than sqlite? 03:54:05 SQLite is all I use for databases 03:56:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:56:29 what about for distributed systems? 03:56:43 halercah 03:56:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:56:56 I don't use that 03:57:03 Are there any good scalable open-source databases that aren't key-value stores? 03:57:45 I don't know, but you could write a driver to use them with SQLite4 perhaps, if you want to use a key-value store as a SQL database. 03:59:09 (I think SQLite4 does support shard keys, in case you need that feature.) 03:59:20 How does that work? 03:59:46 shachaf: hachaf 04:01:27 The documentation describes how that is working. Any columns which are the keys are stored as part of the key using such an encoding so that a binary sort will sort them in the correct order. The table number is also stored at the beginning of the key, using a variable integer encoding. 04:06:24 zzo38: I was reading about how cockroachdb was implementing SQL recently, https://www.cockroachlabs.com/blog/sql-in-cockroachdb-mapping-table-data-to-key-value-storage/ 04:06:30 I don't like the name of that company. 04:06:33 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:06:37 I'll do my best not to use their product because of the name. 04:12:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:15:22 It is different than what SQLite4 does. 04:20:13 (I also think if you hate it due to their name, that is not a very good reason to avoid using it. However, you may have other reasons to use or don't use it, which can be OK.) 04:21:41 No, that's pretty much the main reason. 04:22:08 I hope they nearly fail and are forced by their investors to chang their name. 04:24:15 Well, it is your choice to use or don't, but in my opinion it is not a very good reason. (I also don't hate their name, but even if so, isn't the very good reason, unless perhaps you are also using another program with the same name and makes it confusing.) 04:24:54 No, I just don't like cockroaches. 04:27:28 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:29:01 This is the SQLite4 description http://sqlite.org/src4/doc/trunk/www/index.wiki 04:33:19 zzo38: Do you like SQL? 04:33:31 Have you designed another database query language? 04:34:10 I have not designed another one; I think SQL is OK (there are some things that are difficult with it, but mostly it is OK) 04:34:34 imo Scow Query Language 04:34:53 SQL is not so bad. But I think it's possible to do much better probably. 04:35:18 Maybe you are correct; I don't know 04:35:52 Of course it depends on the application. 04:39:51 SQL seems good for querying SQL databases and also CSV and similar stuff, although to query something such as a RDF graph will be difference 05:06:59 -!- tromp has joined. 05:11:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:24:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 05:25:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:05:22 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:13:19 -!- pancaked has joined. 06:13:26 hi 06:55:09 -!- tromp has joined. 06:59:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:01:32 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:45:59 -!- imode has joined. 07:50:58 -!- tromp has joined. 07:55:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:04:40 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 08:14:50 -!- jaboja has joined. 08:16:11 -!- augur has joined. 08:26:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:34:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:38:03 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:01:57 -!- kurolox has joined. 09:19:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:44:49 Hey fizzie, I'm not sure if you're around here. do you know any way of setting up the locale inside umlbox? 09:55:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:09:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:10:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:13:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:16:49 -!- augur has joined. 10:18:30 kurolox: The same way you'd do it outside, pretty much. The kernel isn't really involved. On HackEgo we call essentially "umlbox env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 X" to run X. 10:19:14 so env changes are permanent inside the sandbox? 10:20:42 I'm not sure what "permanent" means this context. It works the same way as always, children inherit the environment from the parent. 10:21:02 Well, I mean this. https://i.imgur.com/DIRXDjL.png 10:21:35 because the locale between umlbox and the host are quite different. 10:21:36 No, we just wrap every execution inside env. 10:21:54 That was the "X" part of "env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 X". 10:22:17 As in, when someone says `foo, we run env LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 foo. (Omitting some details here.) 10:22:17 oh, okay. Now I understand. 10:22:36 For some reason I was thinking that you were trying to run a X session with umlbox, not that X was "insert whatever here" 10:22:53 I need a coffee 10:23:08 -!- tromp has joined. 10:23:18 I was thinking of saying instead, but was wary of '<'s and '>'s. 10:23:50 okay, thanks for the help. 10:27:56 There's a more "direct" way of setting environment in umlbox in that the init binary's configuration file format has an 'env' command, but I don't think the stock umlbox script ever uses that. 10:29:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:49:28 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:56:59 zzo38: that's not bash's beleif, that's the belief of debian who wrote all those crazy custom completion scripts. I start by disabling those. 11:16:06 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:17:08 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 11:49:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:50:47 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:50:54 Hey folks 11:53:20 -!- tromp has joined. 11:57:47 -!- kurolox has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:59:32 allo 12:27:15 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:30:20 -!- augur has joined. 12:34:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:17:42 -!- zseri has joined. 13:36:01 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:38:55 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 13:48:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:58:50 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:03:30 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:10:33 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:18:44 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:19:13 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:38:43 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:03:05 `? brevity 15:03:07 syn. "shortness" 15:03:12 `? terseness 15:03:13 terseness? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:16:11 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). 15:49:46 @google lambdabot 15:49:48 https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot 16:36:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:42:25 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53091&oldid=53085 * B jonas * (+1764) 16:47:50 `grwp dome 16:47:59 boredome:The Boredome is a dangerous place swarming with woodpeckers, dentists, and bookworms. \ wisdome:The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere". 16:48:59 a sphere is just a bidome 16:57:36 `? sphere 16:57:37 sphere? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:57:37 `? bidome 16:57:38 bidome? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:57:53 -!- augur has joined. 16:58:32 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 16:59:28 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 17:00:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:04:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:04:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 17:04:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:14:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:38 hmm, what was the last olist? 17:15:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:16:45 `olist 1099 17:16:46 olist 1099: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 17:23:18 -!- imode has joined. 17:29:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:32:45 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:33:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:36:31 -!- Melvar has joined. 17:43:14 -!- idris-bot has joined. 17:44:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:46:50 what's an olist? 17:47:33 zseri: ask the wisdome 17:48:48 `? olist 17:48:50 olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html 17:49:18 ok 17:57:31 -!- ATMunn has joined. 18:02:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:03:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:08:23 -!- augur has joined. 18:09:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:25:44 -!- augur has joined. 18:25:47 -!- ais523 has quit. 18:25:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:25:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:31:21 -!- augur has joined. 18:32:19 -!- erdic has joined. 18:44:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:44:51 -!- augur has joined. 18:49:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:51:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:59:02 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: rip me :( (just kidding, I'LL BE BACK)). 19:01:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:01:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:10:36 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:27:29 -!- `^_^v has joined. 19:30:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:30:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 19:30:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:03:47 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:04:01 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 20:04:11 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:04:13 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 20:06:38 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:06:39 -!- brandons1n has joined. 20:06:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:07:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 20:07:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:07:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 20:07:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:09:05 -!- brandonson has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:10:08 -!- brandons1n has quit (Client Quit). 20:10:36 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:12:41 -!- augur has joined. 20:15:11 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 20:15:59 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:16:00 -!- brandons1n has joined. 20:18:57 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 20:18:57 -!- brandons1n has quit (Client Quit). 20:22:23 -!- brandonson has joined. 20:32:32 -!- erkin has joined. 20:57:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:03:16 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:07:14 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:09:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:20:30 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:28:13 -!- ^v has joined. 21:32:14 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53092&oldid=53033 * Stefan-hering * (+4050) 21:34:28 [wiki] [[Javagrid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53093&oldid=53092 * Stefan-hering * (+0) 21:49:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:00 -!- augur has joined. 21:53:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:54:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:56:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:06:33 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 22:15:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:37:53 <\oren\> "Russia is a big country. Russia helps the United States run the International Space Station. Other countries also help with the space station. But only Russian spacecraft carry people to it right now." -- NASA official website 22:38:32 \oren\: using that language? :-D 22:42:12 -!- `^_^v has joined. 22:42:52 -!- Cale has joined. 22:47:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:47:13 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 22:59:10 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:04:33 sounds like a site for kids 23:06:57 <\oren\> Apparently a WaPo writer was disciplined for criticizing jeff bezos 23:07:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 23:11:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:11:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:11:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:23:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:29:06 -!- augur has joined. 23:32:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:52 -!- pancaked has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:32:58 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:35:56 -!- augur has joined. 23:40:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:28 -!- ATMunn has joined. 23:50:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:56:29 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53094&oldid=53091 * B jonas * (-1) /* Instruction opcodes */ 2017-09-19: 00:04:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:06:37 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53095&oldid=53094 * B jonas * (+316) 00:07:40 `5 w 00:07:46 1/2:spaghetti stack//A spaghetti stack is the most edible data structure. \ doublethink//Doublethink is the ability to hold the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.) \ match//Can a match box? No, but a tin can. \ marmite//Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the sup 00:07:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:07:50 `n 00:07:51 2/2:ermarkets of the Commonwealth. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs. 00:10:22 `cwlprits match 00:10:33 rdocöc 00:12:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:22:23 -!- augur has joined. 00:22:42 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53096&oldid=53095 * B jonas * (+169) /* Instruction opcodes */ 00:24:26 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:33:45 [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53097&oldid=53096 * B jonas * (+168) 00:38:27 -!- adu has joined. 00:42:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:48:17 -!- augur has joined. 00:51:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:17:54 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to GusBoat4. 01:18:08 -!- GusBoat4 has changed nick to Bowserinator. 01:27:00 `cwlprints doublethink 01:27:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cwlprints: not found 01:27:03 `cwlprits doublethink 01:27:11 oerjän int-̈e 01:30:38 . o O ( goes well with a triple latte ) 01:36:58 do you like avocado toast too 01:37:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international brig for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 01:37:26 (arr) 01:38:14 i don't really have a relationship with avocado outside guacamole, which i haven't had for ages. 01:39:31 i haven't had toast for ages either, i think 01:40:36 quite possibly not since i moved, or even longer 01:41:33 (my favorite restaurant until 2010 had a nice eggs, toast and sausages lunch, though) 01:42:31 and omelettes 02:06:18 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:08:06 -!- brandonson has joined. 02:08:29 -!- augur has joined. 02:12:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:13:35 -!- augur has joined. 02:20:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:24:28 -!- augur has joined. 02:56:36 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 03:00:32 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:47:06 -!- adu has joined. 03:48:24 http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-193-eric-jonas-on-could-a-neuroscientist-understand-a-mic.html 04:07:42 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:08:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:23:23 -!- Cale has joined. 04:35:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 05:20:27 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:39:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:46:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:56:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:07:07 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:13:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:37:22 -!- augur has joined. 06:40:16 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:03:10 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:38 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:05:23 -!- Melvar has quit (*.net *.split). 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closed the connection). 20:04:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:08:26 -!- augur has joined. 20:39:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:02 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:42:34 -!- augur has joined. 20:45:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:45:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:46:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:55:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:17:27 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 22:06:31 -!- erkin has changed nick to MiGR0S1911. 22:08:59 Does anyone else here read Matt Levine? 22:09:21 There could be mllist 22:09:26 `doag bin/mlist 22:09:33 3908:2013-10-14 revert \ 3907:2013-10-14 rm bin/*list \ 2484:2013-03-22 chmod +x bin/*list \ 2481:2013-03-21 mv *list bin/ \ 2432:2013-03-14 rm bin/?*list \ 2418:2013-03-12 revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 revert 2243 \ 2356:2013-03-03 echo "echo S 22:09:43 `doat bin/mlist 22:09:52 2355:2013-03-03 echo "Seeing a philosopher" > bin/mlist; chmod +x bin/mlist \ 2356:2013-03-03 echo "echo Seeing a philosopher" > bin/mlist; chmod +x bin/mlist \ 2417:2013-03-12 revert 2243 \ 2418:2013-03-12 revert 2416 \ 2432:2013-03-14 rm bin/?*list \ 2481:2013-03-21 mv *list 22:10:13 whoa 22:10:44 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:15:33 -!- MiGR0S1911 has changed nick to erkin. 22:18:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:37:53 -!- imode has joined. 22:45:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:06:15 -!- augur has joined. 23:30:59 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:38:08 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:46:45 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 23:51:49 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:59:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 2017-09-20: 00:03:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:05:57 -!- adu has joined. 00:06:13 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 00:08:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:12:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:13:22 -!- moony has joined. 00:30:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:31:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:13 -!- augur has joined. 00:52:08 -!- tromp has joined. 00:52:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:30 `url bin/mlist 00:55:31 https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mlist 00:56:03 `mlist 00:56:04 Seeing a philosopher 01:03:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:04:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:23:08 -!- augur has joined. 01:32:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:53:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Quit). 02:09:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:01:07 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: *poof*). 03:17:11 [wiki] [[REBEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53098&oldid=41220 * Kendfrey * (-9) Linked to new REBEL page on GitHub 03:23:50 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:32:45 https://mtgcardsmith.com/view/queue 03:32:57 Good card? Bad card? Too expensive/cheap? Too rarely useful? 03:34:20 I've thought of that card before. 03:34:29 Well, the one I thought of said "until end of turn". 03:59:27 Does that "most-recently added" vary as the stack changes as I intended, or is it more static? 04:01:49 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:54:03 -!- imode has joined. 05:53:43 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:34:58 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:35:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:36:20 <\oren\> MFW his name is apparently worf not wharf 07:02:28 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:04:28 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:04:31 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:17:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:31:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:19:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:29:57 -!- ambrus has joined. 08:31:44 -!- GeekDude has joined. 08:44:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:51:17 -!- ambrus has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 09:02:53 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:20:20 -!- augur has joined. 09:34:51 I had a strange dream where there was a voice-controlled gas stove on display in a home appliance store after closing time, and it kept burning with a jumpy big yellow flame since someone shouted a command to it through the window pane. 09:36:34 Now I know this dream is unrealistic, because (1) flame would be blue, not yellow, (2) there would be multiple small blue flames, you get a big uneven flame only if the burner is dirty from cooking, and they wouldn't display a dirty stove, 09:37:06 (3) they don't actually connect the appliances on display into the water and gas supply, they just display them in an inert state. 09:38:23 The rest of the dream gets more believable as I keep thinking about it though. Yes, a store would manage to import a spectacularly unsafe home appliance. Yes, they would be able to get a qualified gas technician to install it. 09:39:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:39:58 Now I'm too afraid to search on the internet whether this exists. I'd probably find even instructions for how to log into it through wifi with the hard-coded admin password and what commands you can send to it that way. 09:46:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:50:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:50:26 -!- tromp has joined. 09:59:18 <\oren\> b_jonas: and unfortunately my company is in that sort of business... 10:02:10 <\oren\> so it is entirely possible one day code i write will partially be responsible for such an incident 10:05:27 <\oren\> really the code on such a device should, theoretically have safeguards 10:07:57 \oren\: it's the hardware that should have safeguards. and even if it were done safely, a voice-activated stove sounds like a really bad idea. just imagine cleaning it with a kid around. 10:09:01 (although I know there's some market for houses that are horribly unsafe for kids.) 10:22:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:40:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:22:35 -!- erkin has joined. 11:47:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: bye). 12:04:58 -!- hakatashi has joined. 12:31:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:52:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:08:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:15:13 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:53:51 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:08:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:09:56 -!- tromp has joined. 15:15:12 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:22:10 -!- sleffy has joined. 15:23:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:37:33 -!- tromp has joined. 16:19:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:29:46 -!- imode has joined. 16:49:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:05:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:26:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:01:45 I'm trying to make a graphical version of a quantum computer but representing entanglement ain't easy 18:02:04 A singule qubit is cluttered enough graphically as it is 18:06:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:11:17 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:13:51 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:14:20 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:15:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:16:03 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:23:46 -!- augur has joined. 18:28:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:35:07 -!- augur has joined. 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:59:59 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:02:32 -!- zseri has joined. 19:04:01 -!- staffehn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:05:49 -!- staffehn has joined. 19:17:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:26:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:37:04 `grwp impost[eo]r 19:37:12 No output. 19:37:59 . o O ( everybody else is an impostor, too ) 19:43:05 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 19:49:06 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 19:49:15 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 19:50:39 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 20:01:10 <\oren\> imposteor? 20:13:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:15:24 -!- rottytooth has joined. 21:01:52 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:06:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:11:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:35:45 -!- Antoxyde_ has joined. 21:37:17 slereah: what graphical presentation do you have so far? 21:37:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:37:30 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:37:46 -!- Antoxyde__ has joined. 21:38:11 -!- Antoxyde_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:45:27 -!- augur has joined. 21:57:40 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:30:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:39:53 -!- Antoxyde__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:17 -!- Cale has joined. 22:44:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:49:16 -!- tswett has joined. 22:50:44 Does Magic: the Gathering have any cards that create tokens (or otherwise place abilities on other permanents) which refer back to the original card by name? 22:51:26 A hypothetical example is if Pentavus had been written with the following ability: 22:51:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:57 (1), Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Create a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying. It has "(1), Sacrifice Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus." 22:53:06 `mkx bin/cbn//card-by-name "$@" 22:53:09 bin/cbn 22:53:19 `cbn pentavus 22:53:20 Pentavus \ 7 \ Artifact Creature -- Construct \ 0/0 \ Pentavus enters the battlefield with five +1/+1 counters on it. \ {1}, Remove a +1/+1 counter from Pentavus: Create a 1/1 colorless Pentavite artifact creature token with flying. \ {1}, Sacrifice a Pentavite: Put a +1/+1 counter on Pentavus. \ MRD-R, HOP-R, M12-R, C14-R, DDF-R 22:57:57 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:59:12 Now I'm pondering how easy it would be to implement combinator calculus as Magic cards. 23:00:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:05:23 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:07:12 -!- tromp has joined. 23:11:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:11:47 I. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever I becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then I becomes a copy of that creature. 23:11:59 -!- tromp has joined. 23:12:22 K. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever K becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then K loses this ability and gains "Whenever K becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then K becomes a copy of the first exiled creature." 23:12:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:15:20 W. Artifact Creature - Equipment. Whenever W becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then W loses this ability and gains "Whenever W becomes attached to a creature, exile that creature, then W becomes a copy of the first exiled creature, then create a copy of the second exiled creature, then attach W to that copy. Whenever W becomes a copy of another creature, create a copy of the second exiled creature, then attach W to that copy." 23:15:22 Ugh. 23:15:32 I'm not sure that would even work at all. 23:31:25 <\oren\> hmm... what about a card that creates tokens that do nothing 23:31:46 <\oren\> except exist 23:33:05 tswett: gutter grime 23:34:52 <\oren\> `cbn gutter grime 23:34:53 Gutter Grime \ 4G \ Enchantment \ Whenever a nontoken creature you control dies, put a slime counter on Gutter Grime, then create a green Ooze creature token with "This creature's power and toughness are each equal to the number of slime counters on Gutter Grime." \ ISD-R 23:35:41 <\oren\> is there a card like: 23:36:42 <\oren\> gambler's rage \ R \ instant \ Destroy target counter. 23:38:04 -!- `^_^v has joined. 23:38:11 \oren\: there are a few cards that just remove counters, yeah 23:38:16 `cbn heart of oceans 23:38:17 No output. 23:38:22 `cbn chisei, heart of oceans 23:38:23 Chisei, Heart of Oceans \ 2UU \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 4/4 \ Flying \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Chisei, Heart of Oceans unless you remove a counter from a permanent you control. \ BOK-R 23:38:28 why is that exact match :( 23:39:49 I think there are other commands. 23:39:53 ` ls bin/*card* 23:39:54 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 23:40:02 `` ls bin/*card*a 23:40:03 ls: cannot access bin/*card*a: No such file or directory 23:40:06 ugh 23:40:08 `` ls bin/*card* 23:40:09 bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card 23:40:25 `random-card heart of oceans 23:40:26 Chisei, Heart of Oceans \ 2UU \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 4/4 \ Flying \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Chisei, Heart of Oceans unless you remove a counter from a permanent you control. \ BOK-R 23:40:36 `mkx bin/rc//random-card "$@" 23:40:38 bin/rc 23:40:59 <\oren\> hmm, there don't seem to be any cards that "destroy target creature token" 23:41:14 no but there is 23:41:20 `cbn aether snap 23:41:21 Aether Snap \ 3BB \ Sorcery \ Remove all counters from all permanents and exile all tokens. \ DST-R, C14-R 23:41:43 `rc dogged hunter 23:41:43 Dogged Hunter \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Nomad \ 1/1 \ {T}: Destroy target creature token. \ OD-R 23:42:16 <\oren\> hmm, I must be using a crappy card searching method 23:42:20 <\oren\> or using it wrong 23:43:19 <\oren\> yeah i was using it wrong... obviously there are no cards with "destroy target creature token" in the name 23:44:45 `cbn aether snap 23:44:46 Aether Snap \ 3BB \ Sorcery \ Remove all counters from all permanents and exile all tokens. \ DST-R, C14-R 23:44:49 *lol 23:45:06 <\oren\> it would hilariously confusing to have a card named Target Creature though 23:46:13 that would be amazing 23:46:44 sounds like an un card 23:47:14 "Whenever a player casts a spell that targets a single creature, change its target to Target Creature." 23:47:27 <\oren\> there was 23:47:29 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 23:47:33 <\oren\> `cbn creature guy 23:47:33 Creature Guy \ 3G \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ Gotcha -- Whenever an opponent says "Creature" or "Guy," you may say "Gotcha!" If you do, return Creature Guy from your graveyard to your hand. \ UNH-U 23:48:14 <\oren\> `rc trample 23:48:15 Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil \ 8BB \ Creature -- Demon Child \ 8/8 \ Flying, first strike, trample \ If you say "I'm coming, too!" as you search your library, you may pay {1}{B} and reveal Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil from your library to have it deal 2 damage to a player of your choice. Do this no more than once each turn. 23:57:23 -!- augur has joined. 23:59:33 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 2017-09-21: 00:02:13 -!- ATMunn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:04 -!- ATMunn has joined. 00:08:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:14:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:23:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:28:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:43:01 -!- pdxleif_ has joined. 01:03:01 -!- tswett has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:17:10 Is there a language where it's common for e.g. variable names to contain spaces? 01:17:59 algol maybe? 01:18:14 istr it allows spaces 01:22:48 Which Algol? 01:23:11 Anyway I mean a language where it's actually common, not just idiomatic. 01:24:01 https://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/comp455/Algol60.pdf doesn't seem to mention it, anyway. 01:30:08 OKAY 01:34:08 `rc rj 01:34:09 Arjun, the Shifting Flame \ 4UR \ Legendary Creature -- Sphinx Wizard \ 5/5 \ Flying \ Whenever you cast a spell, put the cards in your hand on the bottom of your library in any order, then draw that many cards. \ C15-M 01:34:21 `? oerjan 01:34:22 Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the indecipherable is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it. 01:34:47 `swrjan s/indecipherable/shifting flame/ 01:34:49 oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifting flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it. 01:36:05 -!- pdxleif_ has changed nick to pdxleif. 01:36:48 `swrjan s/shifting/shifty/ 01:36:51 oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He thrice punned without noticing it. 01:39:27 `` doag oerjan | grep thrice 01:39:35 No output. 01:39:42 `` doag oerjan | grep thr 01:39:47 Oh. 01:39:48 No output. 01:39:52 `` dowg oerjan | grep thrice 01:40:01 11156:2017-08-18 slwd oerjan//s/twice/thrice/ 01:42:32 i hereby shifty the blame to boily 01:45:26 15:53:55 helloily. well the logs perviously spoke of child porn. 01:45:38 15:54:04 * oerjan decided not to fix that misspelling. 01:45:44 It seems to me that you did notice it. 01:46:19 you'll have to discuss that with boily hth 01:46:34 `swrjan s/thrice/twice/ 01:46:37 oerjan//Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 01:46:56 sic transit gloria mundi 01:46:58 @tell boily I downgraded oerjan to twice punned, because he did notice the pun. 01:46:58 Consider it noted. 01:49:19 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:49:43 `5 w 01:49:48 1/2:hand//A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ rincewind//Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes. \ finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. \ overflow//Overflow is a phenomenon that 01:50:04 `n 01:50:05 2/2: occurs when too much water pours into the inner tanks of a hydraulic computer. 01:53:09 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:20:11 -!- `^_^v has joined. 02:24:26 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 02:25:14 -!- Ackack has joined. 02:49:12 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:54:14 -!- Ackack has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:59:21 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 03:01:48 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:02:06 -!- MrBusiness3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:51:54 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 04:13:59 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:18:42 <\oren\> Nambia! 04:23:39 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:31:14 -!- augur has joined. 04:43:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:09:02 <\oren\> Ephedrine is my favorite amine! 05:09:34 <\oren\> `? amine 05:09:36 amine? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:09:40 <\oren\> `? anime 05:09:42 anime? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 05:42:34 -!- sleffy has joined. 06:53:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:54:05 King of the Hill is my favorite anime 06:54:50 doesthiswork : One color for the probability of the state and two dots for the phase 06:58:47 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:18:37 Hm. 07:19:37 Depth Perception works in VR because the headset gives a parallax effect, so objects that you should perceive as closer to you are rendered in different positions on each screen (closer to the middle- near your nose) 07:20:17 The closer they should be, the closer they are together on the screens 07:20:57 If they're in the same position on each screen, you perceive them abstractly as "far away"- effectively infinite, really, even though it really isn't 07:21:20 But... what happens if they're farther apart? Where does your brain perceive them to be when you look?? 07:22:00 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:23:17 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:28:22 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:28:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 07:28:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:35:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:11:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:42:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:08:22 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:34:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:51:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:08:39 Does anyone know if PDFs of The C Users Journal are available anywhere. archive.org only has the March 1994 issue. 10:31:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:42:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:42:45 -!- sdhand has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:47:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:49:46 -!- sdhandsucks has joined. 10:50:01 -!- sdhandsucks has changed nick to sdhand. 10:50:11 -!- sdhand has quit (Changing host). 10:50:11 -!- sdhand has joined. 11:18:39 -!- erkin has joined. 12:28:40 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 12:31:16 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:36:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:41:26 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 13:05:57 -!- sleffy has joined. 13:10:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:29:19 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:35:31 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 13:41:27 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:03:29 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:07:26 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:14:20 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:15:49 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:45:07 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:54:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:57:16 -!- zseri has joined. 15:16:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:29:43 -!- sleffy has joined. 15:30:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:30:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:35:17 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:06:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:17:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:17:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 16:17:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:17:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:18:26 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CANICVS * New user account 16:20:36 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53099&oldid=53070 * CANICVS * (+184) 16:23:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:23:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:24:30 -!- augur has joined. 16:25:34 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:37:15 -!- sleffy has joined. 16:40:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:13:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:14:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:17:06 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:29:23 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:34:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:45:07 -!- grumble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:47:11 -!- grumble has joined. 17:50:43 :/ 18:04:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:07:29 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:14:32 -!- augur has joined. 18:16:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:19:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:48 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:20:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:25:08 -!- imode has joined. 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:37:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:48:57 :/ 18:57:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:01:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:02:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:03:20 -!- Havde has joined. 19:12:48 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:18:22 <\oren\> CANADA IS IN AN ANIME https://youtu.be/a822uufNGlw 19:20:01 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53100&oldid=53080 * Zseri * (+394) +Version 2 19:23:22 that was the most disorienting sensation of /why?/ until I saw that it was sponsored by the canadian tourism board 19:25:22 -!- augur has joined. 19:29:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:30:33 -!- `^_^v has joined. 19:34:47 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:51:37 -!- augur has joined. 20:16:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:18:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:21:48 -!- erkin has joined. 20:23:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:27:26 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:28:17 -!- augur has joined. 20:32:11 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:33:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:56:57 -!- Antoxyde_ has joined. 20:57:18 what did our tourism board do now? 20:59:18 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:01:52 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:02:19 -!- Antoxyde__ has joined. 21:04:35 -!- Antoxyde_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:36:04 -!- augur has joined. 21:44:48 <\oren\> brandonson: they put canada in an anime 21:48:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:50:20 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 22:08:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:13:37 -!- Havde has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:16:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:47:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:55:59 -!- augur has joined. 23:01:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:10:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:10:25 -!- imode has joined. 23:14:02 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:33:19 -!- augur has joined. 23:38:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:54:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:57:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 2017-09-22: 00:05:23 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:14:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:24:22 -!- augur has joined. 00:35:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:37:18 -!- imode has joined. 01:09:16 huh, apparently shift-space scrolls one page upwards in my browser (I just pressed it by accident then tried to figure out what had happened) 01:12:42 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:33:14 -!- Antoxyde__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:46:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:00:33 -!- augur has joined. 02:04:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:01 -!- augur has joined. 02:22:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:23:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:48:54 -!- augur has joined. 02:55:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international hypercube for esoteric programming language design and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 03:00:22 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:02:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:06:41 -!- augur has joined. 03:13:36 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 03:14:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:46:19 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:46:53 -!- tromp has joined. 03:48:02 Yes, it does that. And web pages that override space to do their own scrolling hardly ever remember to override shift-space. Very annoying. 03:52:38 -!- augur has joined. 03:52:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:06 web pages are _able_ to override navigation keys. Very meta-annoying. 03:56:22 something that annoys me is how the proportion of web pages that use JavaScript is much, much higher than the proportion of web pages that actually need it 03:58:42 microtransactions would solve that. Clients could charge the host a small fee for every line of script executed. 03:59:46 that is such a horrifically bad idea but I like it 03:59:47 that seems hard to implement in other ways 04:00:06 a good fix would be for search engines to penalise sites with unnecessary JS 04:00:22 but Google will never do that as they're one of the main beneficiaries (adverts are a common use of unnecessary JavaScript) 04:00:33 (and Google Analytics is another) 04:00:36 bet you could get DDG to do it 04:00:50 if you wrote the code, I guess 04:02:05 duckduckgo can't easily give bonuses or penalties to sites, as they mostly don't run their own crawlers, but instead hire other engines' 04:03:17 hmm I see 04:04:38 -!- `^_^v has joined. 04:27:29 -!- doesthiswork has left. 04:28:06 -!- augur has joined. 04:29:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:29:42 I hit ctrl-w on the wrong tab 04:32:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:37:43 -!- augur has joined. 04:55:58 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:56:02 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:10:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:23:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:51 -!- augur has joined. 05:48:41 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:50:29 -!- b_jonas has joined. 06:03:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:04:33 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:27:21 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:33:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:40:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:09:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:49:14 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:03:14 -!- tromp has joined. 09:05:01 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:05:05 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:06:01 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:06:28 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:06:59 -!- Melvar has joined. 09:08:04 -!- mtve has joined. 09:09:12 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 09:42:30 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:48:27 -!- tromp has joined. 10:35:48 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 10:38:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:40:37 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thf772 * New user account 10:43:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:53:00 -!- rodgort` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:56:59 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:58:37 " something that annoys me is how the proportion of web pages that use JavaScript is much, much higher than the proportion of web pages that actually need it" => yes, and many of them use javascript that needs a huge computer to just run it 10:58:58 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53101&oldid=53099 * Thf772 * (+735) /* Introducing Nathan/Eilisha Shiraini */ 10:59:02 and they keep changing existing sites to contain more and more performance hungry client-side scripting (youtube is a recent example for such a stupid change) 11:00:21 " but Google will never do that as they're one of the main beneficiaries (adverts are a common use of unnecessary JavaScript)" => the adverts don't actually need all that much javascript. you could practically do them with just iframes and no javascript, the javascript is only there to simplify it or size the iframe right or something. 11:00:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:00:50 b_jonas: they shouldn't need the JavaScript; nonetheless, disabling JavaScript pretty much universally blocks adverts 11:00:59 maybe it's unnecessary even in the adverts themselves 11:01:09 or maybe it's an attempt to track the users of the sites the adverts are on 11:01:24 ais523: yes, but at least most of the ads don't use javascript that needs a very powerful machine to run it, except for the ads on wikia 11:01:33 -!- augur has joined. 11:01:34 and the video ads on video sites 11:01:42 video sharing sites 11:03:10 ais523: no, the javascript isn't really needed for tracking. you need the separate iframe for the ad because the ad is personalized and so google can't allow the individual websites to find out what ad they're serving for particular users, and iframes are practically the only way to solve this, 11:03:31 and once you have an iframe, that's more or less enough to track the users. 11:04:48 unless you want such complicated things as transferring all the mouse movements and all the characters you type in input fields even before you backspace or don't submit the form, which google could do with the javascript, but presumably if they did it too obviously, there'd be a strong backlash from the sites that show those ads. 11:05:44 so google can only do it on their own sites, which is still quite important, with google search and gmail and youtube and their other big sites. 11:05:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:06:02 oh, that reminds me, a question about google 11:06:26 why are they hiding google scholar? it's not even in the "more" menu of the google search now, and it's been like this for years. 11:06:57 but they also aren't discontinuing it, in fact they've improved it so it does a lot of personalized tracking, and recommends you articles connected to your articles, like the academic spambots do 11:07:38 sure, it's still in their big "More" menu that lists all their sites, but that's a huge list few people read I think 11:08:28 it could be just in the selection bar for searches which has "All, Images, Videos, News, Maps, Books" and used to also have shopping blogs, scholar, code etc, some of them in a pulldown menu 11:08:58 I can understand when they discontinue a service, but I don't get why they keep running and improving a service but hiding it. 11:11:15 Their discontinued services include code hosting (probably got taken over by github and its kin), code search (this was very useful, but proably didn't bring much income), Square (I'm not sure if anyone used it much), and Wave (which was some kind of social communication thingy like Plus I think). 11:11:44 Oh, and shopping search is discontinued too. 11:12:11 And the moon and mars maps I think, but those were always just a joke. 11:13:26 Those maps were pretty impossible by the way, they seemed to show higher resolution maps than space agencies ever scanned with their probes. I don't know how they got that data. 11:24:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: bedtime). 11:41:45 -!- augur has joined. 12:21:47 https://twitter.com/belleveinvis/status/911172578831622144 ← this reminds me of the problem of overstriking… I guess one could argue ⿻ is a reasonable way to encode general-purpose overstriking 12:22:35 as in, even outside of CJK glyphs 12:32:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:32:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:05:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:07:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:09:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:11:18 -!- erkin has joined. 13:14:57 -!- tromp has joined. 13:25:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:02 -!- tromp has joined. 13:33:43 -!- zseri has joined. 14:00:30 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:12:03 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:16:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:20:45 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:22:45 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 14:35:09 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:39:17 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:50:41 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:09:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:14:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:46:59 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:47:09 -!- `^_^v has joined. 16:03:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:05:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:05:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:15:08 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:15:25 -!- Vorpal has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:19:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:23:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:28:55 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 16:29:37 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53102 * CANICVS * (+4145) Initial commit 16:30:53 -!- idris-bot has joined. 16:35:11 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:39:28 -!- lezsakdomi has joined. 17:07:12 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:10:11 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:14:17 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:15:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:15:20 -!- olsner_ has joined. 17:15:54 `recipe 17:15:55 ​ per serving. Makes about 3 days and test with serving \ remaining remaining sugar mixture. Microwave each one casserole in cool \ sides. 3. In a large bowl, combine flour, cinnamon, cream and \ the corn drained rosemary seed. Sprinkle with ganzies. Add \ chicken in saucepan. Simmer for an hour. Prepare fruit of soup. Spread \ squares. \ 17:16:15 -!- lezsakdomi has left ("Leaving"). 17:16:19 oh nice 17:21:36 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:22:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:24:42 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:33:50 -!- augur has joined. 17:38:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:23 -!- ATMunn has joined. 17:58:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:03:37 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:05:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:11:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 18:13:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:36:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:37:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:53:13 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:08:35 -!- zseri has joined. 19:10:05 -!- zseri has quit (Client Quit). 19:10:14 -!- zseri has joined. 19:10:20 hi 19:17:07 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:39:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:39:56 [wiki] [[User:Zseri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53103&oldid=52989 * Zseri * (+10) +XTW 20:05:58 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 20:07:49 hi everyone! am I right that algo in O(2^n) complexity is in P? or...? 20:10:02 PinealGlandOptic, I think you are not right. Any polynomial in n tends to less than 2^n 20:10:20 Taneb: OK... so what class this could be? 20:10:51 PinealGlandOptic, EXPTIME I Think 20:11:02 Taneb: thanks for the idea! 20:12:25 here is what I think. to solve SAT problem (in CNF) form, we can just brute force all variables. this is 2^variables steps in total. does it mean that bruteforcer is in EXPTIME? 20:12:47 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GilDev * New user account 20:14:02 PinealGlandOptic, that sounds right 20:14:17 Taneb: thanks 20:14:38 We know that SAT is in NP, however 20:15:10 Taneb: yes. but EXPTIME and bruteforce is "slower" than usual SAT solver? 20:15:23 I don't know 20:17:48 bye 20:18:10 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:25:51 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53104&oldid=53101 * GilDev * (+272) Presentation 20:34:34 [wiki] [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53105&oldid=53072 * GilDev * (-3) Fixed broken link 20:37:44 I agree too many pages have scripts when they shouldn't have. (Sometimes it may be useful to verify form data, although it should never be a requirement, and the server should verify it too so that it work if script is not enabled.) 20:40:53 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:32 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:53:36 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:42:22 [wiki] [[SimPPLe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53106 * YourDeathIsComing * (+1914) Created page with "'''SimPPLe (Simple Probabilistic Programming Language)''' is a probabilistic programming language. Most programs written in this language, produce different results every time..." 22:07:26 -!- imode has joined. 22:38:48 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 22:40:36 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Client Quit). 22:49:48 -!- Dr_Groove has joined. 22:50:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:51:42 -!- Dr_Groove has left. 22:53:10 -!- sdhand has changed nick to ErroneousNicknam. 22:53:15 -!- ErroneousNicknam has changed nick to Erroneous_Nickna. 22:53:19 -!- Erroneous_Nickna has changed nick to sdhand. 23:09:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:11:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:38:06 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 23:38:06 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 23:54:29 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:56:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:57 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:58:06 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 2017-09-23: 00:10:21 sleffy: Mill talk on IPC in San Jose in a couple of weeks. 00:10:45 whoaaaaa 00:10:54 Probably can't make it but whoaaaaa 00:11:03 like, whoa, man 00:11:04 y'know? 00:11:43 whoaaaaaaa 00:27:48 -!- augur has joined. 00:40:08 -!- tromp has joined. 00:44:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:05:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:06:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:12:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:15:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:17:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:32:17 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:33:38 -!- augur has joined. 01:46:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:44 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner. 01:56:32 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 01:59:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:02:21 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:02:32 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 02:13:21 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:14:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:13 -!- augur has joined. 02:29:06 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 02:29:08 -!- imode has joined. 02:36:22 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:42:08 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 02:55:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:57:38 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Nein. 02:57:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:57:44 -!- augur has joined. 02:57:45 -!- Nein has changed nick to Bowserinator. 02:57:46 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:00:31 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 03:01:36 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:02:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:06:36 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:08:12 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 03:10:46 One golf course in this computer game is "Par 3 Golf Course", but actually it is some par 4 also, and the total par is 60 03:11:15 Do you like to go golfing in the rain? 03:25:56 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:27:04 -!- augur has joined. 03:31:00 -!- Lymia has joined. 03:35:17 I tried loading one DOS game on my Linux computer and now the level editor is not work properly. It won't save properly, but the game itself is otherwise working OK. 03:35:25 Do you know what is wrong with it please? 03:36:53 It works fine on a real DOS computer. 04:15:45 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:22:30 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 04:31:13 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:34:05 -!- Marcela_Gandara has joined. 04:48:16 -!- Marcela_Gandara has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:50:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 04:51:35 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*@unaffiliated/marcela-gandara*. 04:51:41 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 05:09:29 -!- sleffy has joined. 05:17:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:40:58 -!- tromp has joined. 05:45:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:54:25 -!- ski has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:16:49 -!- ybden has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:18:47 -!- ybden has joined. 06:22:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:35:26 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:42:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:50:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:29:37 -!- tromp has joined. 07:30:12 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:34:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:36:31 [wiki] [[SimPPLe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53107&oldid=53106 * YourDeathIsComing * (+54) 08:10:32 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 08:23:51 -!- tromp has joined. 08:26:42 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:28:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:29:39 -!- zseri has joined. 08:29:43 -!- zseri has left. 08:30:28 -!- zseri has joined. 08:37:40 -!- tromp has joined. 08:45:02 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:49:32 * Taneb is for some ungodly reason writing an ed-like text editor in Haskell 08:52:58 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel). 09:34:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:39:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:49:28 -!- Capaverde has joined. 09:53:50 can I create a language called brainfuarrrk? 09:54:51 it'd be an extensible brainf*ck 09:56:40 the idea came to me now, because of a word filter, to add replace rules to brainfuck, which'd function similarly to functions or macros 09:57:28 I think lots of languages along those lines have been created already 09:57:35 you might want to look at the existing attempts for inspiration 09:57:46 ofc that doesn't necessarily mean that you couldn't come up with something better 09:58:05 ofc 09:58:12 however, it doesn't take too much work to make replace rules Turing-complete on their own (see, e.g., /// or Thue) 09:58:27 so maybe you don't even need the BF part of the language 09:59:29 well, the brainfuck part is practical 09:59:48 I don't think brainfuck can really be described as "practical" 10:00:19 the main impracticality in Thue is purely that it's bad at exchanging information 10:00:35 maybe not practical to write in but practical to interpret 10:01:13 add anything that makes it capable of doing that, i.e. moving to a language like Retina, and suddenly you have something that's very powerful (from the point of view of "it's easy to see how to write programs in this") 10:01:53 also, it's surely easier to write a substitution language than a substitution + tape language? 10:02:32 easyness doesn't bother me 10:03:00 and it is still easy 10:03:43 I wad thinking of BF arithmetic the other day 10:04:29 when I came up with a new operator for repetition 10:04:49 which would substitute the loop rules 10:05:19 I have it written down 10:07:48 thue looks great 10:08:42 my substitutions would be on symbols though 10:09:16 how is thue bad at exchanging information? 10:11:05 it's very hard to write a Thue program that takes a string of consonants followed by a string of vowels, and returns the same string with the two halves swapped (vowels first then consonants), for example 10:11:16 it's even harder to write a program that takes a string of letters and reverses it 10:11:37 both are possible, but much more difficult than they really should be, you have to write a very large number of cases 10:15:16 I see 10:15:57 hmm… just thinking about this, a 2-dimensional Thue would be much better at this sort of thing 10:16:15 because then you could move the data round each other rather than through 10:16:35 anyway, bedtime 10:16:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 10:25:10 . o O ( I'd call the former tedious, not hard, since it's not difficult to implement a stable sort by swapping ) 10:26:07 the reversal otoh, hmm. that's not even possible without marking the end of the string somehow or using a new set of symbols for the result. 10:34:31 it should be possible but tedious again 10:39:08 not sure exactly how though, if there are no accumulators 10:41:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:41:43 -!- APic has joined. 10:42:31 -!- Capaverde has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 10:47:46 something like this... oh too late. http://sprunge.us/HiBR 11:33:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:35:19 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:37:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:45:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:49:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:24:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:00:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:05:33 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:06:30 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:08:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:26:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:28:53 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:33:13 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53108&oldid=53100 * Zseri * (-131) 14:46:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:48:34 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 14:49:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:51:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:04:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:08:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:17:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:22:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:25:18 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:30:21 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:34:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:36:36 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:43:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:05:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:21:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:23:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:50:55 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:59:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:45:38 [wiki] [[Essays]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53109 * Zseri * (+82) Created page with "* [[Essays/A_Defence_of_Brainfuck_Derivatives|A Defence of Brainfuck Derivatives]]" 18:09:53 [wiki] [[TEWNLSWAC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53110&oldid=53066 * Zseri * (+60) 18:10:51 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:17:48 -!- rdococ has joined. 18:20:24 Concept: function whose local variable scope is defined at creation, rather than run, time. the scope would be per-thread, avoiding race conditions, but a function would be able to access local variables it modified in an earlier call. 18:21:33 With that would also be reified scopes themselves - scopes would be objects containing (1) an associative array mapping local variable names to their values, and (2) a reference to the scope they were initialized in, which ties in with the above concept and naturally givers rise to closures. 18:36:20 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:38:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:58:27 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:59:51 I don't get why the norwegian.com website quotes me airplane tickets sometimes in USD and sometimes in GBP currency. I was logged in with the same account. 19:00:09 I don't care whether they give me one or the other, but changing confuses me. 19:12:47 heh 19:13:53 I was surprised when it quoted me with tickets that seemed to cost 70% the price it gave a few days ago. Until I read the currency. 19:14:13 The price didn't actually change significantly. 19:14:58 It doesn't matter what I pay in, because it's an online bank card payment, and the ban 19:15:06 k charges very cheap rates for currency conversion for that. 19:17:19 The rates are very high for direct money transfer in any foreign currency, so even if I can nominally have an account containing foreign currency at the bank cheaply, I can't actually send it to anyone or pay with it or pretty much anything useful. 19:17:43 But for just online payment with my HUF bank card with any currency they support, they convert cheaply. 19:36:18 Web design question. I want to add a spinner loading animation to my javascript website. I want it to be Coriolis-correct, so spin it counterclockwise on the north hemisphere, clockwise on the south hemisphere. What's the best way to autodetect the likely hemisphere of the user before he sets the option explicitly in his account? 19:37:12 I know I can autodetect the user's preferred language from the Accept-Language HTTP header, but I don't know if there's a HTTP header or some javascript query for the user's hemisphere. 19:37:54 I don't need his full geographical location, and I understand that that would be more personal information that most of my users would be willing to share. 19:49:40 Make up a HTTP header for it and then try to detect based on the IP address if nobody sends that header 20:36:07 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:36:57 -!- Cale has joined. 20:38:45 -!- imode has joined. 20:40:08 -!- Cale_ has joined. 20:44:10 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:47:12 -!- Cale__ has joined. 20:50:23 -!- Cale_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:50:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:52:19 ayis! 20:52:25 wob_jonas: I think your average web developer would use an existing geolocation system and then just round to hemisphere, plus provide a setting somewhere for overriding it for the inevitable misclassifications. 20:53:01 fizzie: I don't care what average web developers do. 20:53:03 But ok. 20:56:27 One of the commercial IP-based geolocation service providers has a "lite" version under CC BY-SA, I know that much. 20:57:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:58:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:20:16 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:21:05 Stupid top-posters repeating the whole email recursively rather than just the relevant bits. And the google mail interface actually encourages that stupid habit. 21:22:10 wob_jonas: so does Outlook 21:22:25 which I think is probably more or less singlehandedly responsible for encouraging that sort of posting style 21:23:17 I use Heirlom-Mailx myself, which also repeats the entire message but the reply message is on the bottom. 21:24:52 ais523: outlook doesn't encourage it as much as google mail. google mail actively hides quoted lines and sigs by default, both when composing a mail and when reading a mail, in the latter case agressively by looking up each line in the thread, which often has false positives. 21:25:14 I don't care if the reply is above or below the new content, that's mostly irrelevant. 21:25:35 Repeating the entire message is fine, because I like deleting stuff, so repeating everything and then deleting most of it is more fun than copying just some lines. 21:26:24 I mean, I even thought of an eso feature in a text editor where the only copy-paste feature is duplicating the whole contents of the buffer or appending a copy of a file to after a buffer, and then you just delete the range you don't need. 21:27:27 This would have to be supported by a feature where if you duplicate the buffer, the marks get corresponding marks created in the copy, and you can jump to either the original or the copy version of a mark easily as you wish. 21:32:10 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:33:35 Does vim have the ability to copy marks from one buffer to another one? Does it have the ability to save marks to a file or load them from a file or pipe? 21:34:04 zzo38: I'm not sure if it has a built-in command for doing that, but I think its scripting language is powerful enough that you could write a command to do that 21:34:28 zzo38: I don't really know. I don't know much about advanced vim. 21:34:43 There's a vim channel on freenode, you could try to ask there. 21:47:52 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:55:19 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:15:36 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8). 22:15:39 -!- erkin has joined. 22:21:38 Yay! I'm helping someone on the internet in something I know nothing about but could track down info with some internet searches. And it's a person who could help me in my previous stupid queries. The internet works! 22:26:13 http://vm01.unsoft.hu/~np/basic/latest/ptsvubas.cc 22:27:25 -!- GeekDude has joined. 23:00:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:02:05 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:14:29 -!- Cale_ has joined. 23:14:41 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Charli9 * New user account 23:17:46 -!- Cale__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:30 -!- Cale__ has joined. 23:19:20 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53111&oldid=53104 * Charli9 * (+181) Introduced myself 23:19:37 [wiki] [[Glass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53112&oldid=41876 * Charli9 * (+80) Added link to WIP compiler 23:22:06 -!- Cale_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:22:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:27:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:28:55 -!- Cale__ has changed nick to Cale. 23:32:31 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:55:15 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2017-09-24: 00:10:06 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:31:28 -!- MDead has joined. 00:32:26 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:32:33 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 00:35:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:41:22 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:59:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:19:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:21:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:35:04 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 01:36:28 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 01:38:30 [wiki] [[User:Elronnd/brainfcuk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53113&oldid=50025 * Elronnd * (+59) Updates. 02:05:35 -!- imode has joined. 02:40:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:00:26 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:09:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 03:16:05 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:28:03 Why are some X events going missing when reading by SDL? 03:38:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:41:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:50:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:51:16 Somehow it seems to be dropping events. Is it X or SDL that is doing that? 03:52:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:04:50 I can try to fix it anyways though 04:05:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:26:32 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:32:56 -!- tromp has joined. 04:35:36 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:37:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:45:35 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:12:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:26:27 Adding a call to usleep() in the program that sends the X events seems to help, but I am not sure why. 05:26:31 Do you know why? 05:26:44 (Even 1 microsecond seems to be sufficient) 05:27:44 -!- tromp has joined. 05:32:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:35:29 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:52:47 Maybe it causes a context switch? 05:56:03 Maybe; I don't know. The man page says "The sleep may be lengthened slightly by any system activity", and maybe it is related to that. 05:59:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:21:36 -!- tromp has joined. 06:26:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:57:19 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:02:48 -!- tromp has joined. 07:11:20 There was another problem, but now I fixed that other problem too. 07:38:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:51:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:54:14 [wiki] [[Glass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53114&oldid=53112 * Zzo38 * (+23) Correct a link to a disambiguation page 08:27:41 -!- tromp has joined. 08:29:16 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 08:32:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:56:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:57:05 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:00:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 09:01:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:04:32 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:34:52 -!- zseri has joined. 09:35:23 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 09:37:21 I found the esolang wiki article about imaginary function 09:38:47 -!- tromp has joined. 09:38:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:44:01 Do you like this? 09:49:21 * impomatic wonders what an imaginary function is 09:57:03 So far I don't know. But it look OK so far (assuming they are pure functions; otherwise I do not expect it work) 09:59:49 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 10:26:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:43:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:52:23 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 11:09:19 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:11:48 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:12:29 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 11:50:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:51:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:55:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:58:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:22:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:04:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:32:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:32:58 ais523: ping 13:33:12 pong 13:33:57 I've been reading the copyright laws for Hungary, namely "http://net.jogtar.hu/jr/gen/hjegy_doc.cgi?docid=99900076.TV#pr215id" . This seems to explain why the legal terms in many of the free licenses are so long and complicated. 13:34:35 assuming that link is in Hungarian, I'm unlikely to be able to understand it 13:34:46 sure, but I'll tell more 13:34:46 the copyright laws in the UK are pretty complex too, though :-( 13:35:06 at least they're usually unambiguous, although they also tend to disallow things in situations where other legal systems are ambiguous 13:35:10 The law regulates such copyright-related licenses that transfer rights regulated by the copyright law. It says how certain settings are defaulted if they're not mentioned in a license. 13:35:52 And the defaults are almost always such that they are less permissive for the receiver. 13:36:16 yes, that's standard 13:36:23 In particular, it says that the license can be given only for particular uses on praticular media, and only for uses known at the time I give the license; 13:36:34 "default-all-rights-reserved" is a license name I refer to often for a reason 13:37:28 that the time length of the license defaults to whatever is usual for that type of work (this shouldn't be a problem for software, which is usually permanently licensed, it's there for licencing book publishing rights towards publishers, but note that it also gives specific rules for specific types of works), 13:38:22 and most importantly, it says that the license defaults to giving right to distribute the work only within Hungary, which is a problem because a lot of licenses (including the Gnu GPL 2 and Gnu GPL 3) doesn't say "global" or "any country" or anything about the location. 13:38:52 The law seems serious about this, because it clarifies how the location works for television received directly from a satellite broadcast. 13:39:46 Also, this law is harmonized with international agreements, so the laws in other countries are probably similar, regardless all the crazy stuff the US does, some of which might actually contradict those international agreements they've supposedly agreed to. 13:40:16 So I don't think Hungary is the only place where this is a problem. 13:41:47 I'm now trying to read stuff written by the FSF and the WMF Hungary (they have a form letter for asking permission for use from people who aren't familiar with Wikimedia projects, and it does mention some terms explicitly with the assumption that people don't actually read what the mentioned Creative Commons BY SA license says, but it doesn't say " 13:41:47 global" either.) 13:42:07 (The CC BY SA license does say "global" by the way. It doesn't say for how long.) 13:42:13 None of this is a legal oppinion. 13:42:48 I'll look at the FSF's FAQ, and the fsf.hu wobsite, because they actually have lawyers paid, and might try to ask for a clarification from them in email if the FAQ doesn't answer me. 13:44:07 I don't like the Gnu GPL, but it's still relevant for software already licensed under it, and, like I said, other copyright license agreements seem to be similar. The X11 license also doesn't mention a location or countries. 13:44:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 13:44:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:44:32 so what's the specific situation which violates the spirit of the GPL? person A writes some GPLed code, person B (who is Hungarian) makes a modified copy and licenses it to person C (who is also Hungarian), person C makes another modified copy, but can't send it to non-Hungarians because it would violate B's license? 13:44:38 is that the simplest situation which causes a problem? 13:44:57 ais523: I don't know yet. I'm trying to read up on this. 13:46:39 The simplest situation is probably when I send hu.Wikipedia's form letter in Hungarian to ask permission from someone to allow their work of art to be distributed under the CC BY SA license, they agree to that form letter without reading the long legal terms of the CC BY SA license, and then I, in Hungary, distribute that work of art to people outs 13:46:39 ide Hungary. 13:46:40 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:48:16 is this a situation where it matters whether it's CC-by-sa or CC-by-sa-unported? 13:48:22 But all of this is regulated by a hundred other related laws, and I'm not a lawyer, and don't know anything about this anyway. 13:48:23 it normally doesn't, but this strikes me as being potentially relevant 13:48:40 -!- zseri has joined. 13:49:25 ais523: when someone choses the non-default license, it's easier to assume that they've read the legal terms, rather than just the form letter and the lay summary, so they'll know that the CC licenses do explicitly say it's a "global" license to distribute etc. 13:51:08 Eg. I've distributed stuff under CC BY (the non-sharealike license), and have written arguments that something is public domain under the US copyright law because it was published before 1923 and so can be distributed on Commons. So I probably couldn't claim that I thought the CC BY license gave only permission in Hungary. 13:51:41 Note that the damned CC hides their legal terms on a separate page from their lay summary. 13:52:28 they want people to at least read the summary, I guess 13:52:42 Sure. 13:53:10 What the CC license doesn't claim anywhere is that it doesn't expire. 13:53:17 The GNU license does say that it's permanent. 13:54:13 Both say that they're not arbitrarily revokable. 13:55:15 I'll also have to read what the Boost license FAQ says, because they also claim a lawyer was involved. 14:00:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:02:14 -!- ski has joined. 14:03:42 ais523: also, do you recall that discussion on wikimedia projects about the lack of freedom of panorama in Sweden, which got to a courts decision, and people complained about the strange law that sometimes gives you the right to use something commercially but not to use it non-commercially? 14:03:58 no 14:06:51 ais523: I can't find the details about that right now, sadly 14:08:36 anyway, it turns out the copyright law of Hungary I linked also has one specific clause that smells like that, about using works of fine art (Mona Lisa) as set in television freely without attribution, unless that work of art is specifically intended to be used as a stage set or stage costume. 14:08:50 (ok, not Mona Lisa, the copyright term of that one expired) 14:08:55 (but something like that) 14:12:14 ais523: I also wonder about the musical fountain in Margitsziget. It's playing recorded music from loudspeakers, automatically shoots jets of water with a coreography matching the music, and, after dusk, lights the water jets with colorful lights also according to a coreography. 14:13:05 "choreography" is one of those words which has a silent h for no apparent reason 14:13:07 English is weird sometimes 14:13:08 It seems to me like it's "permanently exhibited" because half of the songs it's playing now it's been playing for over five years multiple times a day. 14:14:58 ais523: I don't think that's no apparent reason. That's a CH from latin from a greek chi, which is usually pronounced as a /k/ at the start of a word. Same as chemistry and chronometer and christianity. My big dictionary confirms it comes from a greek word, cognate with chorus. 14:15:51 yep, I'm guessing it's for the same reason as chorus 14:16:13 even so, though, we pronounce it more like kappa than chi 14:16:37 Anyway, I wonder what the freedom of panorama exception in the law says about videos of that musical fountain. That seems to depend on two things: (a) what does "panorama" mean, and (b) is the fountain covered by "a work of fine art, architecture or applied art". 14:18:06 ais523: um, I don't know about other people, but I personally never studied russian or german or greek or latin, and as a result I don't pronounce hard h properly in any word, I always just use either a "k" (at the start of words) or a "h" (inside words) regardless the source language. So I don't know what "more like a kappa than a chi" means. 14:18:39 There was something about these greek origin words I wanted to find out. I should try to get back to that later. 14:20:23 Not the greek words themselves, but how we use them now. 14:25:12 Oh, also. Now I understand why libraries put limitations on photocopying or photographing their books for personal only non-commercial use. 14:26:11 The law actually says that I'm allowed (with certain conditions) to make copies of parts of books for personal use, but also that even then I'm not allowed to copy an *entire* book even that way except by typewriter or handwriting. 14:27:55 (It still seems I am still allowed to copy entire books when their copyright protection has expired.) 14:28:58 (That's good to know, because I've distributed an entire out-of-copyright book a month ago.) 14:33:01 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:41:54 Also, this copyright law is the one that permits the government to put a tax on empty CD/DVD disks and photocopier machines. 14:43:07 And tells how the income of that law is to be used. 14:50:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:53:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: too tired to IRC). 15:08:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:13:45 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:17:41 `? white 15:17:44 `? white chocolate 15:17:45 white? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:17:46 white chocolate? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:19:19 `? mario 15:19:20 Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo. 15:23:39 `? chocolate 15:23:40 chocolate? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:24:16 yum 15:30:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:56:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:12:49 Have any languages implemented scopes as ordinary objects? 16:42:32 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 16:43:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:44:23 In Canada is also the law that the government puts the tax on blank CDs, but in Canada, this law does not apply to DVDs. 16:49:59 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:52:22 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:54:46 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53115&oldid=53108 * Zseri * (+185) +infobox 16:54:58 -!- grumble has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:55:07 -!- rumble has joined. 16:55:07 -!- rumble has changed nick to grumble. 16:56:15 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:02:40 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:15:33 rdococ: I don't know, but maybe can you give an example of how you might mean? 17:15:58 I can think of one way it might be done at least 17:20:33 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 17:21:11 You might be able to try something similar in JavaScript by use of eval, maybe 17:21:27 zzo38: a Scope object would consist of an associative array and a reference to its parent scope 17:22:01 In JavaScript objects do have prototypes, so you do have objects like that. 17:23:15 To get a variable from the current scope, the interpreter/compiler/whatever would determine if the associative array has the variable name as a key. If so, the value of the variable would be returned. Otherwise, it would check the scope's parent. 17:23:27 s/variable/entry/ 17:23:43 well, the value of the entry 17:24:04 (You can even easily to have a global variable and then enter and exit the scopes, by using scope=Object.create(scope) to enter a new scope and scope=Object.getPrototypeOf(scope) to exit a scope; this works though more like the scopes in TeX rather than in JavaScript and other programming languages, but I did use it in a program I am writing to keep track of the types in a scope) 17:26:45 (You could though, for example, define a new variable inside of the scope by scope.x=[42]; and then to change its value to write scope.x[0]=43; and so on, if the variable's value is shared with the parent scope.) 17:32:46 if I decide to add OOP features to my concept, I will probably do something like that 17:35:54 OK 17:41:21 -!- Cale has joined. 17:43:42 -!- zseri has joined. 17:51:13 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:02:08 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:41:27 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:43:54 [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53116&oldid=48993 * Oerjan * (+0) /* bleet commands */ Reference implementation does it the other way around 18:44:49 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sobsz * New user account 18:47:52 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53117&oldid=53111 * Sobsz * (+380) 18:53:23 [wiki] [[Qwerty Reverse Polish Notation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53118&oldid=40946 * Sobsz * (-3) It literally says it's Turing-complete in the second frickin' paragraph 18:53:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:56:42 The built-in editor for this game http://zzo38computer.org/prog/pcpuzzleboy.zip does not work properly on DOSBOX (although I believe I found the mistake, but I don't know why it works fine on a pure DOS computer then!) 19:02:14 -!- sleffy has joined. 19:04:13 (The DOS computer I have tested it on has MS-DOS version 7) 19:10:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:12:40 -!- erkin has joined. 19:13:44 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:37:59 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:43:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:45:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:07:26 -!- tromp has joined. 20:08:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:34:26 -!- imode has joined. 20:46:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:49:29 -!- ATMunn has changed nick to ATMunn_. 20:49:32 -!- ATMunn_ has changed nick to ATMunn. 20:54:04 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:18:31 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53119&oldid=53102 * CANICVS * (-8) 21:19:35 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53120&oldid=53119 * CANICVS * (+52) 21:20:40 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53121&oldid=53120 * CANICVS * (-38) 21:24:02 -!- Remavas-Hex has joined. 21:30:55 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:36:16 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 21:41:14 hi 21:41:25 hi 21:55:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:01:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:10:01 -!- Remavas-Hex has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:10:09 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:10:42 `ping 22:10:43 pong 22:11:02 fungot, why were the logs on tunes.org down at some earlier time today? 22:11:03 wob_jonas: oh, but i was never going to. 22:11:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 22:14:46 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53122&oldid=53121 * CANICVS * (+0) 22:18:22 fungot is being ominous 22:34:29 [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53123&oldid=53122 * CANICVS * (+195) 22:40:22 fungot: stop being ominous, you're just a bot 22:40:22 shachaf: all that means is that if a building? has the warm embrace of satisfaction become the smothering the person with a large number of strangers to say it, but reality sucks sometimes. i have no idea! 22:40:36 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:40:59 it has, it has 22:41:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:53:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:54:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:56:02 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:11:43 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:14:58 -!- ineiros has joined. 23:17:40 -!- Capaverde has joined. 23:18:06 -!- tromp has joined. 23:18:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:19:14 Are the logs on tunes behind the channel by days? 23:19:24 Or at least by half a day or something? 23:20:10 I might have made some progress on brainfuarrrk 23:22:03 https://github.com/Capaverde/brainfuarrrrk/blob/master/arithmos 23:22:33 What's a brainfuarrrrk and do I want to know? 23:23:08 wob_jonas: an extensible brainfuck of sorts 23:23:19 Oh whew. 23:24:24 I mean, I don't like those either, but for a moment I thought it was a brainfuck equivalent intended to be spoken by wookies or something like that. That was funny the first time, with Ook!, but we now have like three or four such languages and it's getting quite stupid. 23:24:44 An extension can at least be good, even if most of them aren't. 23:25:28 it's not a direct extension, but it is extensible 23:25:47 (by the user, with macros) 23:26:59 No problem. 23:27:28 I mean, I much prefer languages that stay away as far from brainfuck as possible, but still. 23:28:03 I like brainfuck's simplicity 23:28:59 (implementation-wise) 23:29:34 I have a language planned that has underload's simplicity. I prefer that. 23:29:52 It might even turn out to be simpler than underload. 23:32:16 ,(*) : eval first argument 23:32:32 I plan this too 23:32:43 though it is far away 23:34:42 and everything is macros and there's no state 23:36:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:36:59 (I said this because I looked up underload and it said it is stack-based and has an eval operator) 23:37:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:37:45 ais523: hi 23:38:08 hi 23:38:16 ais523: I read GNU's license FAQ and Boost's as well. They don't say anything about the worldwide clause I asked about earlier. 23:38:34 I wrote a mail to GNU. I'll have to look at the Wikimedia permission form letter later. 23:40:51 -!- Capaverde has left. 23:41:55 IMO the GNU case is not very relevant in practice, because the kind of people who choose to distribute works under GPL won't try to abuse the license to distribute it only within a country. 23:42:14 The Wikimedia permission form letter is actually more relevant, but it's less clear who I should ask about it. 23:47:48 Also, I just bragged that the esoteric language I'm planning to make would have the simplicity of underload, but I'm not really sure if it really would. 23:48:35 there's more than one way to define simplicity 23:48:55 e.g. is SKI combinator calculus simpler or more complex than SK combinator calculus? 23:49:02 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:49:09 Implementing that language requires an associative array, and even the simplest decent implementation of an associative array I know is somewhat complicated, even without supporting deletion. 23:49:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:49:26 (I don't have to support deletion. I can, but it's just an optimization that's irrelevant for most programs.) 23:53:04 IMO associative arrays are a fundamental data structure, and just because asm doesn't support them easily, doesn't mean that they should be considered less fundamental than, say, indexed arrays 23:53:16 actually they're very easy to implement if you don't care about efficiency 23:53:45 sure, but I do care about efficiency 23:53:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:58 "associative array" is such an awful name 23:54:06 Why do people use it? 23:54:41 > let put k v a = \k2.(if k=k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2 23:54:43 :1:20: error: parse error on input ‘.’ 23:54:49 > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k=k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2 23:54:52 :1:29: error: 23:54:52 parse error on input ‘=’ 23:54:52 Perhaps you need a 'let' in a 'do' block? 23:54:54 because it matters to me how efficient you can implement programs in the esolang, and if the impl of the language uses a linear search implementation, that ruins the parts I care about. 23:55:01 > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k==k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 red $ put 2 blue $ put 3 green $ undefined) 2 23:55:05 error: 23:55:05 • Variable not in scope: red 23:55:05 • Perhaps you meant one of these: 23:55:16 > let put k v a = \k2 -> (if k==k2 then v else a k2) in (put 1 "red" $ put 2 "blue" $ put 3 "green" $ undefined) 2 23:55:20 "blue" 23:55:22 there we go 23:55:35 when you haven't used functional languages for a while they all tend to blur together 23:55:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:56:47 You can write an OK hash table implementation in a few lines of code probably 23:56:55 If you implement underload properly, then you can translaste any non-parallel program to lambda calculus first and then to underload and the runtime will grow only to O(t**(1+epsilon)) compared to the runtime t of the original. 23:57:16 I don't know any simple efficient ordered key-value data structure 23:57:32 shachaf: even if the keys are strings that can ideally be as long as fits in the memory, but definitely at least 255 bytes long should be allowed? 23:57:41 Though I'd like to 23:57:41 you don't need ordered for this language 23:57:48 wob_jonas: my point is that this sort of data structure (shall we call it a "map"?) is very easy to write if you don't care about efficiency, meaning that it's conceptually simple, and theoretically the performacne coudl be fixed by a compiler 23:57:59 I know a somewhat simple ordered one, but it's still not simple enough 23:58:19 ais523: yes, but if I only want conceptually simple, then I can just use brainfuck 23:58:36 and that's not what I want 23:58:40 I do care about efficiency 23:58:54 ais523: map works, but dictionary is better IMO 23:59:03 I should have said dictionary, rather than associative array 23:59:26 I will write my own implementation for the reference interpreter of the language. 23:59:32 wob_jonas: Probably? 23:59:36 it's basically just a function that's a) defined in terms of its I/O behaviour, and b) can have that behaviour changed at runtime 2017-09-25: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:17 Some map data structures support iteration 00:00:20 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:01:08 This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans; 00:01:30 and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface. 00:01:47 You mean no standard one? 00:02:41 shachaf: no. I mean not in any library I know of, if you want an implementation that's both portable and its interface isn't restricted to unusable. 00:03:09 Um, and of decent performance. I don't count using the file system as a dictionary from filenames. 00:03:24 What are the keys and values? 00:03:39 I'm typing on my phone right now, haven't even seen the beginning of the conversation 00:04:08 I don't think it was stated yet 00:04:53 The keys are strings with characters from a limited character set of around 70 characters or so, of ideally arbitrary length, but definitely at least as long that you shouldn't store them in fixed length arrays; 00:05:24 the values don't matter much, let's say they're indexes into an array in the interpreter's memory. 00:05:46 You can always just use indexes as values like that for any dictionary, and store the real values indirectly. 00:06:33 And it happens to be convenient for this language because there'll be a lot of repeated values, and in many programs some of them will be longer than an index. 00:07:39 POSIX has search.h 00:09:01 let me look that up 00:09:48 Oh, maybe that doesn't help you. 00:10:42 It just does search. 00:10:50 imo just use c++ 00:12:32 Oh, I should look in Knuth's free software (TeX, Metafont, MMIXware, Standford Graph Base). Maybe they have a suitable implementation. 00:12:49 Oh, hsearch, that's the one I was thinking of. 00:13:30 "First a hash table must be created using hcreate(). The argument nel specifies the maximum number of entries in the table. (This maximum cannot be changed later, so choose it wisely.)" 00:14:06 This is a pretty scow library. 00:15:11 I looked at the search tree functions in GNU libc, which may overlap with this. I found that they had a really bad interface, one that seriously limits how you can use them. I thought they were specific to GNU libc though, and GNU libc is very non-portable. 00:15:42 @google c hash table 00:15:43 https://gist.github.com/tonious/1377667 00:15:57 (As in, it runs on Linux and Hurd, and needs a wizard to compile it, despite that the GNU GPL explicitly forbids distributing a program in a state where ordinary people can't compile it.) 00:16:09 Just use something like that. 00:19:21 The POSIX search.h functions, both the hash and the tree ones, are limited to one hash table or tree in the entire program, and don't allow ordered access (lower_bound). That would technically still allow implementing my language, but I dislike that on principle. 00:19:56 They're awful, ignore whatever I said about them. 00:20:07 Also it requires a global comparison function with no cookie argument, like qsort. 00:20:11 Ok. 00:20:58 Older versions of gcc might have an implementation I can steal. 00:22:03 I thought you were looking for a simple implementation. 00:22:15 Yes, that may be the problem. 00:22:51 But then if it's something in an already well-known software, then I could sort of count it as simple in the same way as just using malloc or some other widely used library function as simple. 00:23:07 What's the interface you need? 00:23:19 But yes, it's not simple enough. 00:24:40 wob_jonas: Perl has hash tables as a primitive 00:24:42 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:26:44 I need one dictionary per interpreter (and one interpreter per process in the reference interpreter), initializing it as empty or some other known state, looking up a string key with a fatal error if it's not present, or inserting a pair in such a way that if it's a new key, the key is copied to a permanent storage array and the tree will reference 00:26:44 that, not my original copy. 00:27:22 That is, I don't want to keep a new copy of the key in memory forever each time I overwrite the pair for it in the tree. 00:27:30 I will overwrite values a lot. 00:28:40 Both lookup an insert/overwrite shall be fast. I don't need ordered lookup or iteration. 00:29:28 And no delete? 00:29:55 Ideally I'd like an interface that easily allows to have multiple instances per process, so that someone can modify the reference interpreter to multiple instances per process, in which case I also need deallocation of the whole dictionary. 00:29:59 I don't need delete. 00:30:27 Delete would be a nice extra, but I don't insist on it, because I know it complicates implementations a lot. 00:30:49 And if you actually want to use delete, then you also need a malloc to store the keys and be able to free them. 00:31:26 Otherwise you'll have two copies of the key in memory when the key gets recreated after deletion. 00:31:39 That would be worse than just not deleting anything. 00:33:07 A malloc/free system is, in theory, on the same order of magnitude to implement efficiently as a dictionary. The main difference is that malloc is available in C, so everyone has it. 00:33:23 ais523: yes, I know perl has one, and so does almost every modern programming language. 00:33:30 But C is still quite important. 00:33:38 You want it in C? 00:33:58 some languages, e.g. OCaml, do it via the standard library rather than as a primitive 00:34:26 Is Perl's primitive a hash table or a dictionary? 00:34:33 shachaf: " I will write my own implementation for the reference interpreter of the language. / This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans; 00:35:08 ... / and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface." 00:35:22 shachaf: perl's is a hash table 00:35:24 it's not ordered 00:35:45 and yes, it's in the standard library for most languages where that distinction is important. 00:35:48 Not being ordered doesn't mean it's a hash table. 00:35:49 -!- sleffy has joined. 00:36:13 Ruby has has tables as a primitive, python has them and I think they're a primitive, 00:36:21 C++ and rust has them in the standard library. 00:36:30 C++ and rust have ordered versions. 00:36:45 [wiki] [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53124&oldid=52212 * Get52 * (+1) github changed 00:36:46 shachaf: yes, but I also know perl implements it as a hash table 00:37:06 and they're not even trying to change that, they're just disputing what the Right**TM hash function is to use 00:38:30 The perl and rust devs are both worried that a hash table can have security problems because in programs that use untrusted data as keys, the people providing that untrusted data can make a denial of service attack by making the hash table perform badly; 00:38:54 but they're both trying to solve it by making a hashing function that's both fast and secure, which I think is theoretically impossible, 00:39:26 wob_jonas: what's wrong with siphash? 00:39:49 because the cryptography guys have done serious research about how fast you can make a digest that is probably cryptographically secure, and it's still slower than anything the perl and rust guys are trying, and 00:40:16 I think a cryptographically secure hash function (with the key never revealed) is the only way to guarantee no suboptimal performance. 00:40:22 ais523: ^ 00:40:36 wob_jonas: there's more than one way to be cryptographically secure 00:40:55 ais523: sure, and I have no proof and don't know cryptography, so this is just my conjecture 00:41:41 siphash is meant to be cryptosecure when used as a MAC (which is the security guarantee you need for a hash table) but not for other uses of a cryptohash 00:42:08 I personally think people should just use balanced trees or something like that with performance guaranteed by deterministic bounds for almost every cases when this consideration is relevant, except perhaps in some cases in operating system kernels. 00:42:26 (basically, the security property it's claimed to have is that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k) 00:42:57 -!- tromp has joined. 00:43:09 ais523: you can't even chose them that way if you get feedback of the order of hashes of any number of keys you construct? 00:43:44 ais523: also, this gets ugly because even that is probably only enough if separate secret keys are used for each hash 00:44:03 wob_jonas: the property's actually slightly stronger; it says that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k, even if you know siphash(k, Z) for arbitrary Z 00:44:11 otherwise the attacker can experiment on one hash to make another hash behave badly later 00:44:25 so the idea is that you choose k randomly per program 00:44:32 by just using the same keys in the order they're in the first hash 00:44:47 hash tables only break upon hash /collisions/ 00:44:54 merely inserting elements in hash order doesn't break must hashing algorithjms 00:45:01 *most 00:46:31 ais523: yes, but when you have hashes of multiple sizes, then the smaller hashes use shorter hash keys that are made from the longer hash keys in simple ways that allow the attacker to make collisions in the smaller has by learning about the keys in the longer hash 00:47:01 As in, if the key for the shorter hash is the upper bits of the keys of the longer hash, then keys close to each other in the large hash will often collide in the large hash, 00:47:20 but other simple methods of creating shorter hash indexes have similar problems. 00:47:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:48:07 If I understand correctly, in some cases the devs defend from this by using entirely new random salts for each hash table, and each time they resize a hash table too. 00:48:19 wob_jonas: but now you're adding 2**n elements to the large hash so that you can get n**2 performance adding them to the small hash 00:48:40 you could just add 2**n elements to the small hash instead… 00:48:58 ais523: no, I don't think so. you're adding O(n) elements to one hash to add n elements to a second hash and get O(n) collisions 00:49:51 There might be some other way to defend from this attack that I don't know about though 00:50:04 wob_jonas: actually, we're both wrong, you're adding O(n) elements to the hash, but only O(sqrt(n)) will have clashing top bits 00:50:16 so the second hash has O(sqrt(n)**2) = O(n) performance 00:50:54 hmm 00:51:14 I'm not convinced, but that sounds more likely than exponential 00:52:35 An attacker can already force O(sqrt(n)) performance with just one hash after all, under some reasonable conditions. 00:53:40 Dunno. If you say this SIPhash solution could really work, then I should do more reading up on this, 00:54:37 because that would be interesting for me to know, even if I just want to avoid the original problem by using either separate passes of sorting and binary search, or a balanced tree or similar dictionary when I can't do that. 00:55:15 This because the cryptographical properties you say SIP provides might be useful for other problems, 00:55:28 or they might not, I don't know, that's why I'll have to read up about it. 00:56:35 There's a particular problem I have in mind that I can so far only solve with similar strong crypto stuff like good message digests, but might have a faster solution under some conditions. 00:56:59 I don't think a balanced tree helps there. 01:01:54 -!- clog has joined. 01:01:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:03:24 Here's the problem. My server communicates with multiple parties that I don't trust and that don't trust each other. When any party asks, I must give them a new unique ID token. 01:04:35 that doesn't seem so bad so far 01:05:06 Nobody shall be able to guess that ID unless I or that party transitively gives information about the ID to them. But also, nobody should be able to examine the tokens to learn about how many tokens I've generated in any time interval, or when any token they see was generated, except that I've generated at least as many tokens so far as they've see 01:05:06 n, and at least as many in an interval as they asked for. 01:05:50 The parties may learn about some of this from timing attacks, which seems very expensive to avoid, but they shouldn't learn such information directly from examining any number of tokens. 01:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:23 One solution for this is to use 256 bit long cryptographically secure uniform random strings as tokens. 01:07:09 There are well-tested libraries for doing that, and it's essentially as hard as computing one or two 256 bit long message digests. 01:07:26 I don't think there's a solution for this involving just sequence numbers and no cryptographic operations. 01:08:43 There might or might not be crypto solutions that are easier than a HMAC, and this is what I should find out. 01:09:05 Or faster than a HMAC, or even faster than a message digest, like as fast as a SIP hash or two. 01:09:47 Does my description make sense? 01:10:48 right, you're basically just trying to generate random numbers, but have weaker security requirements 01:10:55 so are hoping that you might have something faster than a CSPRNG? 01:11:27 I don't know what to think. I thought there isn't anything faster than that, but after what you said about SIP hash, I'll have to reexamine that assumption. 01:12:12 I'm also somewhat fuzzy about where there seem to be two essentially different requirements called cryptographically secure PRNG, 01:12:48 one of which seems to require as many non-pseudo hardware random entropy as bits output, and one that uses much fewer bits than that. 01:13:05 the full CSPRNG requirements are that a) you can't predict any future outputs or any internal state given all past outputs, b) you can't predict any past outputs given the internal state 01:13:20 several applications that would typically use a CSPRNG don't actually care about b) 01:13:22 I have the impression that the first kind is recommended for generating keys for public key cryptography, but I don't understand why there's a distinction in first place. 01:13:33 e.g. NH4's RNG is intended to obey a) but definitely does not obey b) 01:14:38 I see 01:16:12 And if you want (a) and (b), then you want as much incoming entropy as outgoing; but when you want only (a), then you don't need that? 01:16:38 wob_jonas: this is more to do with security levels 01:17:00 say you have a CSPRNG with a 256-bit internal state, you can't then get more than 256 bits of security on keys generated from it 01:17:03 I also don't understand why some crypto libraries only seem to provide the first kind of CSPRNG but not the second, despite that the first kind is slow on many hardware in most cases. 01:17:12 because you could just brute-force the CSPRNG itself rather than the resulting key 01:19:07 Yes, but for currently used public key cryptography, such as RSA, the public key itself is much longer than the entropy you need, because you can factor numbers much faster than with brute force, right? So if you generate a 1024 bit key with 256 bit entropy, then the fastest way to factor your key is faster than brute forcing 256 bits of seeds. 01:19:40 Or is the difference important only for generating more random output than just a single public key? 01:20:04 Like, generating several Diffie-Hellman keys? 01:20:14 well, certainly you don't want to generate so many keys on the same seed that brute-forcing the seed is faster than individually factoring the keys 01:20:29 Or even for generating multiple symmetric crypto keys. 01:21:01 Is there any reason to use RSA nowadays? 01:21:05 Generating lots of symmetric crypto keys comes up a lot with public key cryptography, do you need the stronger guarantee for that? 01:21:34 shachaf: I think this applies not only to RSA, but also for most other public key schemes used nowadays 01:21:47 I'm not sure though. 01:24:44 ais523: so is the weaker CSPRNG guarantee enough for the unique ID problem I asked? 01:24:58 wob_jonas: I'd think so 01:24:59 And does a proper implementation of the weaker CSPRNG need two or just one calls to a digest? I guess I can find that out by reading the source code of tomcrypt 01:25:10 at least, I'd be surprised if a security audit told you off for using /dev/urandom there 01:25:15 Thank you for the explanation 01:25:15 however, I'm not a crypto expert 01:25:18 so I may be wrong about all this 01:25:44 This helped. 01:25:58 I'll leave soon because it's late. 01:33:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:33:35 I wrote a hash table implementation without delete support. Seems pretty straightforward. 01:34:00 I guess I'd never implemented it before because I don't like hash tables that much. 01:35:45 . o O ( did you make a hash of it ) 01:36:51 shachaf: yes, but it still makes the implementation longer 01:37:41 -!- tromp has joined. 01:37:54 eep, tunes was away for nearly a day 01:38:36 well, clog 01:39:13 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 01:39:28 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:41:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:46:50 -!- sleffy has joined. 01:48:02 -!- imode has joined. 01:50:32 What tricks are there for implementing key-value maps efficiently other than ordering and hashing? 01:51:11 shachaf: I know one trick that requires ordering but not anything that looks like a tree, and I'll try to use that in my reference implementation. 01:51:24 I guess a prefix tree is another popular one. 01:51:26 I don't recommend it for most non-eso purposes though. 01:51:39 What's your trick? 01:51:43 A prefix tree still counts as ordering. 01:51:58 I would say that an array that you binary search still looks like a tree 01:52:13 Oh, in that case this still looks like a tree. 01:52:19 No, prefix structure is more than order structure 01:52:42 A < function isn't sufficient to implement a prefix tree 01:52:59 Also using prefix trees you can sort in linear time? 01:53:05 Maybe. 01:53:20 It's more than order structure, sure, but then a balanced tree or a treap or a self-balancing tree is also more than order structure I think. 01:53:32 is there any cellular automata software that allows arbitrary spaces? as in, CAs on arbitrary graphs or implicit spaces or.. something. 01:53:41 I'm talking about the structure of the keys themselves 01:54:26 shachaf: my trick (and I have invented this independetly but I think it's known) is to use a set of sorted arrays of key-value pairs with power of two size, no two of the same size. 01:54:47 shachaf: prefix trees are basically an optimized version of radix sort 01:54:52 to find an element, find it in each array, which takes O(log**2 n) time 01:55:00 so they're O(n) if you have a fixed number of possible keys 01:55:27 wob_jonas: Oh, sure, that's a good trick 01:55:38 to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest 01:55:46 wob_jonas: that's basically a trie, isn't it? 01:55:52 Though you can do it more generally than powers of two, and sometimes there are benefits to other counting systems 01:56:05 For example skew binary works well 01:56:36 this takes amortized O(log**2 n) time 01:56:38 It's also the rough idea behind databases like Bigtable? 01:56:49 to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest. 01:57:03 this also helps remove an element. 01:57:47 I'm typing on my phone so I can't type very quickly 01:58:00 shachaf: I'm not sure. I know this method also lets you keep snapshots of older versions of the dictionary cheaply, which I think Bigtable or some such db promises, but there are other ways to provide that, and I don't know how they actually implement it. 01:58:13 ais523: I don't think it's similar to a trie. 01:58:29 ah right, no, I misunderstood how it works 01:58:35 it's more like a skiplist, but not the same 01:58:44 Yes, skiplists are very similar and more popular. 01:59:08 Iirc skiplists differ in that they need randomness. 01:59:25 isn't this faster at accessing more recently added data? that might be a useful property in some cases 01:59:28 Unlike a trie, this structure only needs key comparisons,. 01:59:36 I can't remember what this data structure is called 01:59:51 shachaf: I don't know any name for it either 02:00:26 ais523: theoretically yes, but it's so slow in general even for accessing recently added data that if you want that, you'll still use balanced tree or self-balancing tree structures 02:01:01 also, this structure can be deamortized, which you need to make persistent snapshots actually, but that makes the implementation more complicated 02:01:27 deamortized as in making a version that guarantees non-amortized deterministic upper bound on insertion time 02:02:50 and I think it can be deamortized while still being O(log**2 n) time, as opposed to O(log**3 n) which you might think if you just know that an array can be deamortized to a complete binary tree with log speed loss 02:04:49 wob_jonas: How about "cache oblivious lookahead arrays", or "fractal trees"? 02:05:05 I haven't even seen a good reference for this data structure, even one that doesn't give it a nice name. In particular, I don't think it's in the current TAOCP, nor in the Chris Okasaki persistent data structures book, nor in anywhere else.\ 02:05:16 shachaf: I've no idea what those are 02:05:30 I'd look them up but it's very annoying in my 02:05:33 on my phone 02:05:57 Is that the thing you're describing? 02:06:17 shachaf: anyway, deamortizing is easy, just do the merges with the steps delayed compared to one another just fast enough that each merge result is ready by the time you have to merge that one with a new array 02:06:34 in each step, do a constant number of merge steps at each level 02:06:53 or you can do a constant number of merge steps total 02:07:39 The bad part of this structure is that lookup still guarantees only O(log**2 n) but Omega(log n) time, 02:08:16 and I don't think you can fix that without turning it into some other structure in disguise with extra unnecessary complications added. 02:08:26 See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf 02:08:31 Such as skiplists. 02:09:11 I don't like how skip lists are randomized 02:09:22 shachaf: it's too late for me to try to read that now, but thanks for the reference, if I don't get back to it, feel free to point it out again 02:09:52 @tell wob_jonas See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf 02:09:52 Consider it noted. 02:10:05 Whoops, are you on the list? 02:10:17 `dontaskdonttelllist 02:10:18 that won't work, it will ping me when I type the next line, such as this one 02:10:18 dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​ 02:10:30 Ah, no 02:10:30 and not later 02:10:35 Sure it'll work 02:10:44 Next time someone else sends you a message 02:10:50 ah 02:11:34 I needn't have typed that line though. Good night. 02:11:38 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:52:10 I have written hash table codes that are without deletions 02:56:46 -!- tromp has joined. 03:01:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:09:15 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:28:16 -!- tromp has joined. 03:32:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:53:19 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:58:33 [wiki] [[Brainflub]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53125 * Snorepion * (+2550) Created page with "'''Brainflub''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Snorepion|Snorepion]]. While its documentation is written jokingly, it isn't as much of a joke as some ot..." 03:58:50 [wiki] [[User:Snorepion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53126 * Snorepion * (+17) Created page with "I hate red links." 03:59:04 [wiki] [[User talk:Snorepion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53127 * Snorepion * (+13) Created page with "==Talk here==" 04:28:07 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:53:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 05:16:10 -!- tromp has joined. 05:21:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:33:01 zzo38: Have you written hash table codes that are with deletions? 05:34:00 I do not remember 06:10:43 -!- tromp has joined. 06:15:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:17:02 [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53128&oldid=46400 * Quintopia * (-3) 06:22:50 [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53129&oldid=53128 * Quintopia * (-49) That is a wasteful way to do natural log. 06:24:53 [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53130&oldid=53129 * Quintopia * (+21) /* Real Part and Imaginary Part */ 06:28:31 -!- boily has joined. 06:28:49 @massages-loud 06:28:50 shachaf said 4d 4h 41m 52s ago: I downgraded oerjan to twice punned, because he did notice the pun. 06:29:50 [wiki] [[SELECT.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53131&oldid=53130 * Quintopia * (+29) /* Trigonometry */ 06:38:32 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/7rmTFxyjSpk 06:52:11 @METAR PAMR 06:52:12 Unknown command, try @list 06:52:23 lambdabot: metar PAMR 06:52:25 ... 06:52:30 I forget how lambdabot works 06:52:32 @metar PAMR 06:52:32 PAMR 250453Z 19010G16KT 10SM BKN060 10/06 A2963 RMK AO2 SLP035 T01000061 $ 06:52:36 There we go 07:02:12 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:05:17 @metar ETAR 07:05:18 ETAR 250556Z 11003KT 0600 R27/0500V0900 FG VV002 07/07 A3014 RMK AO2A CIG 001 RWY08 SLP214 T00700070 10070 20032 53000 $ 07:05:44 `airport ETAR 07:05:46 Ramstein Ab (RMS, ETAR) \ Queretaro Intercontinental (QRO, MMQT) \ Seletar (XSP, WSSL) 07:06:26 `` ls bin/*air* 07:06:27 bin/airport \ bin/airport-lookup 07:06:47 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 07:06:51 `cat bin/airport 07:06:51 airport-lookup any "$*" 07:07:04 `` grep share airport-lookup 07:07:05 grep: airport-lookup: No such file or directory 07:07:13 `` grep share bin/airport-lookup 07:07:14 with open('share/airports.dat', 'rb') as datafile: 07:07:34 `` grep ETAR share/airports.dat 07:07:35 751,"Ramstein Ab","Ramstein","Germany","RMS","ETAR",49.436911,7.600283,776,1,"E","Europe/Berlin" 07:09:02 the most metal metar, obviously 07:10:45 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:11:54 hellørjan. 07:14:48 good mornily. 07:18:02 `? rms 07:18:03 rms? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 07:18:44 @metar META 07:18:44 No result. 07:18:50 @metar CYUL 07:18:51 CYUL 250600Z 22004KT 15SM FEW030 23/21 A3004 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP172 DENSITY ALT 1000FT 07:18:52 @metar MTAR 07:18:53 No result. 07:18:58 @metar MEAR 07:18:59 No result. 07:19:04 23/21. the humidity. 07:19:04 @metar METR 07:19:05 No result. 07:19:51 itym "oh the humidity" hth 07:20:23 twim. 07:21:06 time to do some circadian realignment. 07:21:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TYPED CHICKEN). 07:36:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:52:14 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:52:24 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:06:17 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:07:25 -!- J_Arcane has quit. 08:08:36 -!- zseri has joined. 08:12:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:15:44 -!- tromp has joined. 08:17:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:22:16 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 08:25:21 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:59:31 -!- prooftechnique has quit (K-Lined). 09:02:21 -!- prooftechnique has joined. 09:25:50 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:26:01 Some corrections about the dictionary data structure I talked about yesterday. 09:26:59 Firstly, about persistence. If you just want to keep snapshots of some or all earlier states of the dictionary, then use the original version. Don't deamortize it the way I suggested, because deamortizing just makes it harder to use persistently, because the deamortized version needs in-place writable arrays, the ordinary version does'nt. 09:28:28 This is enough if eg. you want to store all states of a nethack game in such a way that you can play it back (not that I recommend using this structure in practice). 09:29:12 If you need a persistent data structure that you can revert (or even fork), then this gets ugly, and I don't know how best to do it. The easiest way is probably to just not use this data structure and use a B-tree instead. 09:29:34 Second. Like many other binary data structures, this one has a fibonacci version. 09:30:07 Ideally I should use the fibonacci version for eso purposes. In practice, that would screw with my mind too much so I'd be unable to write a correct implementation, so I might not do that. 09:30:54 Third, name. If this data structure doesn't yet have a good name, then I call it a plywood, because it's made of layers (of different sized arrays), and is a cheap substitute for real solid trees. 09:34:13 Didn't I give you a name yesterday? 09:34:27 "cache-oblivious lookahead array" 09:34:35 Is this the same thing as COLA or not? 09:34:37 shachaf: oh, that turned out to be this structure? 09:34:45 I dunno, I haven't read the slides you linked to yet 09:34:47 I don't know. 09:34:47 I will read them 09:39:59 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 09:47:03 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:47:38 -!- tromp has joined. 10:50:55 shachaf: oh no. these slides are basically stored as bitmaps. wtf. 10:53:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 11:33:20 -!- impomatic has joined. 11:38:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:40 -!- tromp has joined. 11:52:35 That reminds me. If I eventually want to buy an internet domain name for my personal stuff, if I use a distinctive enough name, what top-level domain do you think is the best to put it under? Possibilities can include .org, .net, .com, .xyz 11:52:54 (Don't hold your breath, this won't happen any time soon, and the answer might change by that time.) 12:22:06 @google lambdabot 12:22:07 Plugin `search' failed with: Network.Socket.connect: : does not exist (No route to host) 12:22:15 o-kay. 12:22:19 @google lambdabot 12:22:20 https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot 12:28:10 So it still needs that workaround (permanently add an IPv6 neighbour). I wonder whose bug that is. 12:28:48 int-e: "I wonder whose bug that is" => ah yes, those are the best bugs 12:30:28 it's not lambdabot's... it's more low-level than that (I could reproduce it with curl) 12:30:52 It's either the Linux kernel or the configuration of the local router. 13:04:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:06:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:10:25 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:16:03 -!- zseri has joined. 13:17:48 The boost license FAQ "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" has two interesting tidbits. 13:17:58 "Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection." 13:18:37 "Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption. The more of Boost is uniformly copyrighted and licensed, the less problem people will have with mounting a Boost release CD on a corporate server." 13:19:03 Both of these make sense in a twisted legal sort of way in retrospect, but I wouldn't have guessed them. 14:02:20 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:03:49 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 14:05:10 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:19:02 [wiki] [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53132&oldid=49652 * Zseri * (+7) Category 14:22:21 -!- Remavas has joined. 14:24:00 -!- TieSoul has joined. 14:30:02 [wiki] [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53133&oldid=53115 * Zseri * (+11) +Influence:Terse 14:33:08 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:53:13 -!- joast has joined. 15:03:19 -!- rottytooth has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:23:16 shachaf: you're right. although I don't like those slides, they do seem to describe the same dictionary data structure as the one I said. 15:44:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:52:33 [wiki] [[Brainflub]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53134&oldid=53125 * Snorepion * (+18) My user page link is still red, updating the page might help 16:03:38 [wiki] [[Brainflub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53135&oldid=53134 * Snorepion * (-1) fix broken link 16:06:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:28:12 [wiki] [[Brainflub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53136&oldid=53135 * Snorepion * (+278) /* Examples */ Better hello world 16:31:43 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:37:44 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 16:55:09 -!- erkin has joined. 16:56:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:07:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:07:48 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:09:39 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 17:22:16 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:23:28 -!- imode has joined. 17:49:24 imode! 17:52:16 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 17:52:45 hi rdococ. 17:52:52 how's things. 17:54:36 medium. 17:55:03 hopefully medium well. :P 17:55:09 heh 17:55:24 I like the concept I had of a 'Scope' object, but I have no idea how I'd incorporate that in an interesting manner. 17:59:01 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:01:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:03:17 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:07:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:09:00 hi 18:09:57 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 18:26:34 <\oren\> Lol world war three is apparently hapening 18:27:02 shit, who knew. 18:27:14 what 18:28:04 <\oren\> North korea says they're gonna start shooting down any american aircraft that come near 18:28:17 do it. I dare them. 18:28:27 we'll turn the penninsula into a gulf. 18:34:25 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:34:53 -!- Remavas has joined. 18:35:07 \oren\: haven't they said that before? 18:35:59 \oren\: I mean, they bragged before that they have intercontinental ballistic missiles that they can screw their hydrogen bombs onto. if they really had that, would they have to wait for the aircraft to come near? 18:36:35 or are they acting like the Iraqi people who said in the news that a farmer shot down the super modern American stealth aircraft with his bird rifle? 18:38:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:38:15 pretty much the latter. they released a propaganda video that's... just hilarious. 18:39:09 ok, that sounds normal. 18:39:35 it shows them "blowing up" U.S aircraft, ships, etc. 18:40:40 they said the us had declared war with its actions but that's a surprisingly common state of affairs with north korea, meanwhile the threat to shoot down planes isn't terribly grave because, believe it or not, us planes do not in fact habitually fly over north korea 18:43:41 they might plausibly try, though. something could happen but it's not 'ww3 now' territory 18:44:08 [wiki] [[Chimera]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53137&oldid=17981 * Zseri * (+95) Categories 18:44:25 we hit "ww3 now" when they actually strike. 18:49:53 [wiki] [[XTW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53138&oldid=53133 * Zseri * (+19) +Category:2017 18:53:53 -!- tromp has joined. 19:20:17 imode, b_jonas, fwiw i've found that by far the best way to get clued up on NK is to follow analysts on twitter 19:20:53 ankit panda is my go-to guy atm b/c he tweets a lot 19:28:49 -!- Remavas-Hex has joined. 19:31:29 -!- Remavas has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:39:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:47:47 Phantom_Hoover, imode: Somehow I doubt that north korea will trigger WW3. Nobody likes them. Sure, China and Russia don't like US messing in the region, but WW3? Probably not 20:02:10 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:02:49 <\oren\> Of course, if this was Civilization, then north korea and america would declare war, and then suddenly for no apparent reason india nukes them both 20:03:01 " I tried loading one DOS game on my Linux computer and now the level editor is not work properly. It won't save properly, but the game itself is otherwise working OK." => the problem is that the simulated video card and motherboard doesn't behave exactly like the hardware one. 20:05:47 the tunes log is missing for half of the interesting conversation we had yesterday. 20:07:04 less than half 20:19:21 -!- tromp has joined. 20:21:27 \oren\: that underflow glitch :P 20:23:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:24:00 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:36:19 -!- TieSoul has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:48:40 `olist 1100 20:48:41 olist 1100: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 20:49:19 let me see 20:50:55 -!- Remavas-Hex has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:53:05 -!- Remavas has joined. 20:53:26 wow, so much loot just left there 21:02:27 Vorpal, well, my favourite twitter comment on it of the day is: 21:02:45 "So far we have not figured out what they can shoot down, sink or shell and precipitate a full hot war." 21:03:04 they have learned from experience that the us will put up with a lot of shit 21:03:35 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:12:33 -!- tromp has joined. 21:31:23 fungot, when have you last cleaned your fridge? 21:31:23 wob_jonas: look, you're trying to lead well, but has not been dispelled! hah, i should have specified: i'm from like 2 hours in this comic... spider-man! will!! die! 21:31:45 NO!!!!! Spidey! 21:37:41 `? spider 21:37:42 spider? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:37:43 `? spiderman 21:37:44 spiderman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:37:44 `? ant 21:37:45 Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways. 21:37:46 `? antman 21:37:47 antman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:46:08 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:39 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:09:14 <\oren\> this aint world war three?! lame 22:16:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:17:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:21:11 bye 22:21:14 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:29:35 fungot, are you actually a human, or well, it depends on whether the chicken or the egg that I just laid - and haha! 22:29:35 rdococ: to the last, i will grapple with thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! 22:29:40 what. 22:34:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:35:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:36:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:36:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:40:45 Heh, I haven't seen a loopy fungot in quite a bit. 22:40:45 fizzie: you and the dromiceiomimus had a customer is either rude, but as a terminator 2. that was a pretty good... or bad?" each moment we delay, so when i send not to know for sure who i just met! 22:42:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:42:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:44:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:49:39 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:53:34 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:54:17 ais523: the boost license FAQ also tells two interesting things that are sort of obvious in retrospect only 22:55:13 ais523: "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" "Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection." 22:55:38 and "Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption." 22:55:51 wob_jonas: the thing about uppercase license disclaimers, is that the law just says they have to be prominent 22:56:09 but there's a court case that found that uppercasing the disclaimer when everything else is lowercase (and in the same/similar font) is sufficient 22:56:23 and so everyone uppercases them nowadays because they know that that works 22:57:31 ais523: yes, but at the same time at least we in Hungary also have laws that none of the rules are allowed to be printed in small font, so they can't really just use different font sizes. it's either all caps or bolding, and bolding doesn't easily work in text source code 22:58:04 (about a third of the text of the travel insurance I buy is in bold, sometimes indicating such disclaimers, and sometimes that it's changed since the previous version, and you can't tell which clause is bold for which of those reasons) 22:59:07 Insurance is so complicated. 22:59:58 shachaf: yeah, but I read it through, and it basically comes down to being a travel insurance with some extra services that I don't need but I also can practically never use in practice because the disclaimers cover everything 23:00:43 I quit my job last week. So now I need to figure out US health insurance. 23:00:45 What a mess. 23:02:13 shachaf: ouch. 23:02:31 shachaf: what job are you looking for now, and are you planning to relocate? 23:02:45 Not immediately looking for any job. 23:02:59 sure, it needn't be immediately 23:03:05 Should I get another job or should I be a lazy unemployed bum for a while? 23:03:29 I have no plans to move but I might. 23:03:30 you should *look* for a job. it will take some time to find a good job anyway. you don't have to intentionally delay for that. 23:03:45 But looking for a job is even more stressful than having a job. 23:03:49 yeah, obviously the way I should ask is how far you're willing to move for a job. 23:04:10 I'm willing to move anywhere, I suppose. But this area isn't so bad. 23:04:52 ok 23:05:13 Why, where do you recommend? 23:05:57 One time a company wanted me to move to Istanbul for a job. I guess that was a bit drastic for me. 23:06:45 But I think one reason they were in Istanbul was that it was cheaper. Why would I move far away to a place I don't particularly want to live in to work at a job that paid less? 23:06:50 I've no idea, I'm in Hungary, but it's not a good place to move to. 23:07:17 Exactly. You don't get payed much here, which is why companies get people to work here. 23:08:16 If income scales roughly linearly with cost of living, it's better to live in the most expensive place. 23:08:16 (It doesn't, of course. But it might still be better.) 23:08:21 All the qualified workers are moving away from Hungary, but at the same time the companies in western europe figure out they can get half-qualified workers here for much less money than in western europe who work better than the people hired in india for free, so they fire the western europeans and hire teams here. 23:09:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:09:55 It looks like keeping my employer's health insurance will cost me a bit over $500/month. That's a lot but it's less than I was expecting. 23:10:21 500 USD per month? that's a LOT 23:10:27 what does it give for that price? 23:10:38 can't you choose some other health insurance? 23:10:46 I can choose another one. 23:10:46 I mean, I understand it's beneficial while you're working there 23:10:50 but after that 23:10:54 The cheapest I can get would probably cost ~$250/month. 23:12:31 I got the fanciest most expensive option because my employer was subsidizing most of it. Maybe that was a mistake. 23:12:37 that sounds more reasonable, unless you're over 65 years old or something 23:13:02 I suppose it depends on how you treat insurance. 23:13:25 The most important reason to have health insurance is to handle the very expensive cases that cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. 23:13:54 shachaf: sure. 23:14:15 like needing to swap your dialysis filter every two days 23:15:21 Dialysis is covered for everyone in the US, I believe. 23:16:07 ok. then expensive patented heart medicine. 23:16:27 or just the general cost of making hospitals work, which is getting more and more expensive. 23:16:29 or something. 23:16:36 Yes. 23:16:45 I went to the hospital for the first time in a decade last month or so. 23:17:01 Had a good time getting X-rays and CT scans and things. 23:17:16 Looks like I'm OK, though. Hopefully. 23:17:28 some of those turn out to be less scary than you thought as a child 23:18:38 It turns out getting water through IV is not such a bad or painful thing as I remembered from when I was nine years old, it's just that every time I had to get that, I was so sick that everything felt like a bad experience. 23:19:04 Have you gotten a CT scan? 23:19:05 Having a needle stuck in your arm all day isn't as uncomfortable as I remembered. 23:19:14 Yes, and those aren't as bad as they imply either. 23:19:18 There's no needle, is there? 23:19:38 The doctors warn that it's very loud, and while it's loud, it's not a distracting sort of sound, but a comforting hum. 23:19:49 Getting the dye injected was a very odd experience. 23:19:49 No wait, sorry 23:19:52 That's MR scan 23:19:58 CT scan isn't loud 23:20:02 I'm confusing stuff 23:20:05 I got both types of scan 23:20:12 Did you get the dye? 23:20:15 CT scan is just an ordinary X-ray, only with a hundred times 23:20:19 yes, I did get a dye 23:20:19 MRIs are obnoxiously loud yeah 23:20:24 It feels very warm. I guess you can feel your own circulation. 23:20:44 they scare you about that too, saying they leave a needle in your arm after the dye because there's a small chance of an allergic reaction to it 23:23:03 I think I got dye twice, once for CT, and once for just plain X-ray. Plus radioactive measurement chemical once. 23:23:17 "Hungary spent the equivalent of USD 1719 per person on health in 2013, compared with an OECD average of USD 3453." 23:23:20 So cheap. 23:23:33 Sort of like radioactive dye, but because they measure the radiation rather than the absorbtion there, it needs only a much smaller dose. 23:24:01 shachaf: that's the costs the state pays. it doesn't include what people pay for themselves I think. 23:24:43 I think that's the the total spending. 23:24:48 Is it? 23:24:48 "Public sources accounted for 65% of overall health spending, below the OECD average" 23:24:55 https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Country-Note-HUNGARY-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf 23:24:57 Ok. 23:25:10 How about private health insurance companies? 23:25:20 65% sounds believable 23:25:42 at least if you only measure the costs accounted for, not the black market stuff and tips 23:30:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 23:30:27 The same source says the US spent $8713/person: https://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Country-Note-UNITED%20STATES-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf 23:30:49 shachaf: that's yearly, right? 23:31:12 Yes, that's in 2013. 23:33:15 US politicians are saying a lot of nonsense about health insurance. 23:33:20 What a mess. 23:35:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:36:02 Anyway, $500/month is below the US number but way above the Hungarian number. 23:36:50 politicians always say a lot of nonsense. that's their work 23:37:06 -!- tromp has joined. 23:37:17 I think maybe health insurance is just fundamentally problematic without a lot of regulation (maybe of a form similar to the ACA in the US). 23:37:58 How can it possibly work? 23:42:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:46:59 Do you like the winner's curse? 23:49:03 -!- boily has joined. 2017-09-26: 00:02:21 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:02:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:06:53 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TEENAGED CHICKEN). 00:12:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:31:33 -!- tromp has joined. 00:35:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:36:27 -!- brandons1n has joined. 00:36:36 -!- brandons1n has quit (Client Quit). 00:46:34 -!- brandons1n has joined. 00:51:13 -!- brandons1n has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:25:31 -!- tromp has joined. 01:29:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:45:48 -!- tromp has joined. 01:49:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:59:35 -!- imode has joined. 02:18:17 copumpkin: whoa whoa whoa 02:18:31 copumpkin: Are you stopping a little north too? 02:19:09 Not sure I’ll have time, just here for gf’s conference 02:19:19 You’re in SF area right? 02:20:27 Yep, Berkeley. 02:20:45 imo you should stop by 02:20:52 Did you bring your pooches? 02:21:25 Ah yeah that’s quite a trip. We have a couple of free days afterwards but will probably just make it to LA 02:21:33 No pooches, pooch hotel for them 02:21:50 -!- tromp has joined. 02:21:58 What's your trip's schedule? 02:22:32 I've been thinking of going to San Diego at one point but I don't have definite plans so I guess it probably wouldn't overlap. 02:22:45 Maybe I should go somewhere else now that I have all this free time. 02:26:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:50:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:01:26 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:50:44 -!- ^v has joined. 04:01:15 -!- erkin has joined. 04:03:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:09:42 -!- tromp has joined. 04:14:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:24:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 04:24:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:31:14 ais523: your quit message is more noisy than three ordinary quit/join lines tdnh 04:31:28 now walk -> 04:32:05 it's informative, and quit messages are easy enough to filter out (either mentally or technologically) if you don't like them 04:32:32 also, how narrow is your client? I'd be surprised if it came to more than two lines on this one 04:34:40 I might golf it down a bit once people have got used to it, though 04:41:26 -!- rottytooth has joined. 04:44:19 -!- rottytooth has quit (Client Quit). 04:46:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:53:38 esoterick deluxe 04:57:10 ais523: 80 chars wide terminal 05:00:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:01:57 but there's a 10 char left margin on the continuation lines 05:02:50 which is less than on ordinary messages 05:04:32 -!- tromp has joined. 05:06:19 hm, I wonder if a line consisting entirely of lowercase i's could come to 1 line on my client but 3 on yours 05:08:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:21:07 assuming you're using a proportional sans serif font... 05:21:18 yes, and a fairly small one 05:21:23 in a fairly wide client 05:58:25 -!- tromp has joined. 06:02:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:03:28 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 06:29:05 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:00:25 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:11:05 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 07:13:48 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:19:41 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:20:11 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 07:22:32 http://emotifuck.rs/ 07:24:39 I like how the URL says "fuck" but the page itself censors it 07:25:34 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:26:21 Perhaps the domain was registered by a third party. 07:34:36 -!- tromp has joined. 07:41:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:42:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:46:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:02:51 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:03:22 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:03:44 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 09:19:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:25:39 -!- boily has joined. 09:34:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:37:27 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:38:16 -!- ^v has joined. 09:49:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:57:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:00:27 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:01:22 -!- deltab has joined. 10:08:51 `w 10:08:53 ​welcome.tr//Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! : Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde #esoteric deneyin.) 10:08:59 `5 w 10:09:05 1/2:no//No means hi. \ md5//MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens. \ trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. \ busy beaver growth//No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver g 10:09:07 `n 10:09:08 2/2:rowth. \ high hat//A high hat is the same as a top hat, not the same as a hi-hat, just like how a top quark is not the same as an up quark. 10:09:27 * boily inhales a wisdom hit 10:22:25 hehe, half of those are mine 10:22:32 what does the MD5 refer to? 10:22:55 I mean the aliens part in it 10:23:00 `dowg md5 10:23:09 5133:2014-11-15 learn MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens. 10:24:00 04:23:13 mroman: it's defined as a function? can't you use alien? beings) 10:24:00 shachaf: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle."? and there's a little picture of a ruler. 10:24:03 04:23:25 I'm not sure if aliens know what sha1 is. 10:24:06 04:27:43 Yes, they're probably stuck with MD5 still. 10:24:17 fungot: don't kid us, you're sauzzled all the time 10:24:18 shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me! 10:24:54 I have some questions about esolang design. 10:34:46 -!- zseri has joined. 11:21:35 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:27:47 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:40:07 `addquote shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me! 11:40:07 int-e: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? 11:40:10 1315) shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me! 11:41:48 `` sed -i '$s=shachaf=shachaf=' quotes 11:41:49 quotes// EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... More practice is in order. \ that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ GKennethR: he shou 11:42:06 ``cat bin/sed 11:42:07 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found 11:42:12 hum 11:42:35 `cat bin/sed 11:42:35 ​#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi 11:43:04 `quote 1315 11:43:05 1315) shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me! 11:43:11 What did you do? 11:43:19 Ah. 11:43:24 shachaf: insert a ^O in hope of not hilighting you 11:43:30 Unfortunately I have /hilight on /chaf\b/ 11:43:42 heh 11:44:07 `revert 11:44:08 Done. 11:44:15 imo if you're going to do it do it properly twh 11:44:34 yeah, I should write a proper noping script for hackego. I promised once. 11:45:01 hum, not sure what you mean by properly 11:46:01 noping as in modifying a nick to fool that user's client to not recognize it, while humans reading it will still recognize it. culprits macros already do this, but I want to improve on the specifics. 11:46:07 something that doesn't match /chaf\b/ hth 11:46:48 I said I'd try to make a better one, and make a version of my culprits-ng command that uses it, but so far I was lazy 11:47:04 It should be in something other than Perl. 11:48:51 shachaf: we sort of have a lack of interpreters and compilers on hackego, and at one point I had trouble when trying to install a linux binary onto hackego 11:48:54 so I'm not sure 11:49:03 if this wasn't to be part of Hackego, then sure, 11:49:23 but I want to use it in a culprits program, and that has to access hackego's version control system, so it's hard to put it outside hackego 11:49:30 `` sed -i '$s=sha[c]haf=shachaf=' quotes > /dev/null 11:49:31 No output. 11:49:37 I don't wish to write it all in bash 11:49:39 or sed 11:49:43 I guess that's the standard position, going by `hlnp 11:49:54 `quote 1315 11:49:55 1315) shachaf: i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. dudes got to act in accordance with my final wishes! they're the last things i ever did wish, and that makes me very sad to me! 11:50:08 shachaf: do you have reasonable suggestions for how I could use some other useful programming language that has a decent interpreter or compiler I can easily run on hackego? 11:50:37 You can use Python, there are a bunch of programs that use that. 11:50:45 Or you can use an esoteric language. 11:50:52 Or bash. 11:51:20 shachaf: I've been told that the funpuns are entirely accidental; is that true? 11:51:50 `` echo funpuns | tr a-z n-za-m 11:51:51 shachaf 11:51:58 shachaf: python could be a reasonable suggestion. I'll consider that. 11:52:39 shachaf: I won't write in brainfuck, because it's brainfuck, and I won't write in unlambda or underload or any language that doesn't have easy handling of character IO, 11:53:09 and for most esolangs, the problem is that you need an interpreter on hackego, for which you'd need a non-eso programming language in which the interpreter is written in. 11:54:36 ``` python3 --version 11:54:37 bash: python3: command not found 11:54:39 ``` python2 --version 11:54:39 Python 2.7.9 11:54:43 ``` python --version 11:54:44 Python 2.7.9 11:54:45 int-e: Are fun puns ever an accident? 11:54:51 ``` py --version 11:54:52 bash: py: command not found 11:54:59 do we have a python3 on hackego? 11:55:18 shachaf: It's a rare occasion. 11:59:04 `` tr a-z n-za-m << furrc 12:25:06 I think we only have python 2.7 and maybe 2.6 12:25:29 hopefully pyhton2.7 actually works. I'll try to use that then 12:41:16 -!- rottytooth has joined. 12:43:42 -!- rottytooth has quit (Client Quit). 12:57:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:57:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:00:40 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:02:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:13:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:59:32 [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53139&oldid=45164 * SuperJedi224 * (-61) 14:00:30 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:02:06 -!- erkin has joined. 14:06:39 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:11:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:03:31 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:35:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:52:15 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:04:10 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 16:09:27 -!- Antoxyde_ has joined. 16:12:01 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:16:46 `fonts 16:16:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fonts: not found 16:16:50 `? fonts 16:16:51 ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz 17:02:46 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:03:06 hmm 17:16:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:20:03 -!- Antoxyde_ has changed nick to Antoxyde. 17:35:33 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:41:42 -!- zseri has joined. 18:01:41 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:28 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:04:40 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 18:04:40 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:10:22 -!- Slereah__ has changed nick to Slereah. 18:42:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:43:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:45:32 -!- imode has joined. 18:51:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 18:53:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:53:46 <\oren\> lol chelsea manning is banned from canada 18:56:48 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:01:09 Forsooth 19:19:48 -!- `^_^v has joined. 19:24:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:46:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:35:52 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:02:49 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:22:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:29:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 21:30:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:59:34 bye 21:59:36 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:16:07 -!- erkin has joined. 22:24:05 -!- augur has joined. 22:32:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:33:06 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:33:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:43 -!- augur has joined. 22:40:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:29 <\oren\> the coffee machine broke down because we didn't "lubricate the brew group" 22:44:47 <\oren\> gah 22:57:18 -!- augur has joined. 22:59:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:59:32 -!- boily has joined. 23:00:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:02:16 -!- augur has joined. 23:03:28 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:07:14 -!- Cale has joined. 23:07:34 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:16:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:47 `5 w 23:28:55 1/2:something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom//It is now. \ egobot//EgoBot is my arch-nemesis. \ haiku//🀨や⛄ \ elrond//Elrond is a rogue program originally created to police the Matrix, eventually gaining increased individuality and becoming a threat to the Machines themselves. \ indexed monad//Indexed monads are just monads on an in 23:30:29 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:46:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:59:48 -!- tromp has joined. 2017-09-27: 00:04:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:08:03 -!- augur has joined. 00:16:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:23:33 -!- augur has joined. 00:23:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:42 -!- augur has joined. 00:30:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:33:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ROOM CHICKEN). 00:54:34 -!- tromp has joined. 00:58:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:00:59 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:11 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 01:16:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:16:18 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 01:19:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:26:24 -!- augur has joined. 01:26:37 golly's sourceforge page goes down a lot. 01:27:13 I wish they updated the android version 01:27:32 that was pretty nifty 01:29:32 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:30:50 I'm wanting to figure out how it handles so many CAs of different rulesets. 01:30:54 i.e not lifelike. 01:33:04 -!- sleffy has joined. 01:34:22 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thenewcomposer * New user account 01:36:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:37 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:31 there's rule files 01:41:42 I don't recall very much about them, but they're just text files 01:41:57 yeah. I'm looking for documentation on them though. 01:42:05 they're documented somewhere I think, maybe on the forums? 01:42:17 -!- augur has joined. 01:42:27 they should be written in SMETANA, really :-P 01:42:38 wait, wrong language 01:42:41 SMETANA? :P 01:42:56 what's the CA description language from catseye? 01:43:02 it isn't SMETANA 01:43:09 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53140&oldid=53117 * Thenewcomposer * (+234) /* Introductions */ 01:44:39 oh, ALPACA 01:45:30 interesting. 01:45:45 they're vaguely similar names, I guess 01:45:58 all caps, end in "A". :P 01:46:02 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:48:29 having played BOTW recently I've been drawing things up related to emergent systems. 01:48:38 -!- tromp has joined. 01:49:22 imode: BOTW is one of those examples where a game developer has decided "I don't care if this game becomes an emergent system, I'm just going to live with whatever it comes up with" 01:49:24 considering CAs are just a bunch of FSMs with their inputs and outputs linked four ways, I'm experimenting with what I can make. 01:49:39 ais523: pretty much. 01:50:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:53:05 and it's excellent for it 01:53:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:55:56 space in a CA is kind of like those little LCD games, where the play field is already mapped out and the control logic just lights parts of it up depending on the game state. 01:56:51 getting a little "particle" to move around must be interesting. 01:57:30 -!- augur has joined. 02:06:47 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:23:49 [wiki] [[Minim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+5683) Created page with "= Minim: A Simple, Low Level, Interpreted Language Minim was == HELLO WORLD == ;;; START HELLO WORLD
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This will make my work harder, but it may be worth it. 14:42:24 (My work as in writing documentation, reference implementation, and example programs.) 14:42:42 what's the twist? 15:14:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:16:08 I can't tell yet because the language is still secret 15:19:28 I totally disagree with the statement of today's xkcd 15:20:23 The news reporters always want to have lab coat guys shown on screen. So they interview an astronomer for every solar eclipse, a mathematician every time someone wins the lottery (blackboard instead of lab coat that time), 15:21:04 and a virologist and vulcanologist and robot engineer and all that sort of dangerous sounding profession for all the most boring fake news they invent. 15:21:26 It's exactly when they ask apparently boring scientists when we should worry that there's something scary going on. 15:33:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:36:42 "breaking news" != "news" (how many unexpected solar eclipses have you experienced?) 15:36:57 but the scale is totally arbitrary even with that considered. 15:37:25 int-e: ok, but even given that 15:38:07 (also anything sun related is very likely to be a total extinction event; those aren't really worth worrying about in my view) 15:38:53 int-e: a particularly bad solar storm could do a lot of damage without causing a total extinction 15:38:59 I mean, when they happen and can no longer be prevented ;) 15:39:05 ais523: true 15:40:06 It's a bit stupid to attach it to a scientific field. A breaking news event involving a virologist could be a cure for HIV. 15:42:11 . o O ( There are no absolute truths. ) 15:42:25 -!- sftp has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:43:17 int-e: or just some other daily story about which parents don't want their children to get the flu shot and asking the virologist for a thousandth time why the flu shot is important to stop spreading the epidemic to other people and stuff 15:44:01 the strip says "local reporters interviewing scientists about a breaking news story" 15:45:35 true 15:46:28 so I guess there's a puzzle there... what concrete event(s) did Randall have in mind when creating this ranking? 15:46:46 -!- sftp has joined. 15:47:02 -!- imode has joined. 15:47:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:48:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:06:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:06:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:06:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:13:32 ais523: by the way, someone from FSF replied to my email about the licencing question, but didn't say anything useful. 16:13:42 hmm, a pity 16:14:45 Basically they confirmed that, sure, the licenses are written with lawyers involved trying to make it a global license, so it should work anywhere. 16:14:58 But not a specific legal opinion or anything that would directly answer me. 16:15:20 given how many bugs there are in the GPLv2, I'm not convinced that their lawyers are all that good 16:15:30 (the GPLv3 is much better, but it had a really long public review period) 16:16:06 ais523: I'm not sure how many of those are actual bugs, as opposed to just problems that didn't exist back when v2 was written and couldn't have been foreseen reasonably. 16:17:09 But obviously the FSF already says that v3 is better than v2, so there's no point complaining to _them_ about bugs in v2 only. 16:18:14 yeah 16:18:24 and it's really important to remember that the FSF is ideological first 16:22:07 Also, the v2 is from 1991. The laws have genuinely changed since. The whole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_Agreement global international convention is from 1995, and it took years after that for countries to agree to it, 16:22:25 which is why the Hungarian law I link to is dated to 1999 (but modified since) in first place. 16:23:32 And, in particular, the section 43.4 that talks about geographical area was modified in 2011, let me see the version history of that one if I can. 16:28:10 hmm, I think the free version history info on net.jogtar.hu doesn't go back to that 16:48:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:06:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:11:46 hm. does describing any arbitrary cellular automata require a turing complete language? 17:11:59 I don't think it does. :P 17:12:11 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:13:14 -!- augur has joined. 17:16:04 imode: it depends on how you define cellular automata, possibly? 17:16:26 although it also depends on how you define the description 17:16:50 alpaca is not TC because it can't express an infinite loop (it's only usable for producing interpreters as output, not interpreting directly) 17:17:00 but if alpaca is a cellular automaton description language, so is cat 17:17:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:18:38 For whatever reason, I feel afraid of talking here. 17:18:47 say I hand you an arbitrary CA with some behavior. for any behavior I could possibly hand to you, I want you to re-create the rules followed by every cell in any way you'd like. does this require a turing complete language? 17:19:23 my gut says no, because why would it? the board's state is, well, the machine state. you could describe most behaviors with just an FSM. 17:19:45 but it'd be interesting to find a counterexample. 17:19:51 imode: what are the inputs and the outputs to the program in the language that you're not sure whether it's TC? 17:20:06 as far as I can tell, either the output is a program that emulates the CA, in which case trivially the language doesn't need to be TC 17:20:17 or else the program itself emulates the CA, in which case it's TC because some CAs are TC 17:20:29 you seem like you have something else in mind, but I'm not sure what 17:21:55 alright, alternative description. I write a CA simulator that supports black-box functions for rules. board state + coordinates for the currently active cell go into the black box, resulting cell state comes out. 17:22:37 is there a rule set that necessitates that whatever's in the black box use a turing complete language? 17:22:41 your program now takes an infinite amount of input, which causes the normal definitions of TCness to break down 17:23:07 as in, it's hard to say what being turing-complete even means in that context 17:23:09 ...nowhere did I mention infinite. try a 30x30 grid. 17:23:19 like, it's not hard to extrapolate what I'm talking about here. 17:23:24 it's not even hard to interpret. 17:23:28 if you only have a finite portion of the grid as input, then you can trivially just use a lookup table 17:23:33 as you only have finitely many possible inputs 17:23:43 and the program itself is deterministic 17:24:04 the input grid could be the neighborhood of the cell 17:24:16 that it could. 17:24:31 https://arin.ga/Q5kTWT my amazing new text editor 17:24:31 in which case, what rules would break the idea of a lookup table. 17:24:56 either you'd need infinitely many states per cell (e.g. an analog CA) 17:25:12 ooh, an analog CA 17:25:16 or else you'd need to look at an arbitrary amount of context (e.g. in RUBE, a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates) 17:25:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:25:56 what that says to me is "anything past the neighborhood of the cell". 17:27:14 that's actually interesting. if a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates, what's stopping me from defining an FSM that takes that into account, and if the dozer pushes the first crate, you swap the pushed crate's state to "crate, pushed left". 17:27:59 That becomes difficult to interpret 17:28:01 and the crates next to that pushed crate take note of that and alter their own states. then near the end of the chain, the empty spot just turns into a crate... 17:28:05 imode: it's not a finite state machine because a single crate has to keep looking left as long as there are crates, to see if it finds a dozer or empty space 17:28:13 so you have infinitely many states to deal with 17:28:44 you can make it into a CA with "speed of light" propagation of data rather than instantaneous 17:28:45 ais523: not from what I can see. it can still be defined by local rules. 17:28:51 e.g. by having the dozer start a vibration 17:28:54 yeah. 17:29:01 that's what I was intending to describe above. 17:29:05 but then the crates will keep moving for some time even if you remove the dozer 17:29:34 say > is our dozer, # is our crate, and @ is "crate, moving right." 17:30:39 >### is our initial state. say the dozer pushes the first crate. the next state would be >@##. the state after would be >@@#. after that, >@@@. after that, >@@ #. after that, >@ ##. after that, > ###. 17:30:56 that doesn't take a turing complete language to describe. 17:31:09 imode: yes but it's much slower than actual RUBE 17:31:16 in RUBE, you can push an entire sequence of crates in a single tick 17:31:19 well, given. :P 17:31:28 which is necessary in several Rubicon levels as a method of fast long-distance communication 17:31:52 I'm not interested in speed, I'm interested in requirements. 17:32:26 but the speed affects the semantics of a CA 17:32:31 because multiple things go on at once 17:32:33 that's true. propagation. 17:33:13 interesting, though. so you do need a TC language to account for "faster-than-light" travel. 17:33:22 wonder if there's any way around that. 17:33:33 doesn't need to be TC specifically, just an FSM is not good enough 17:33:45 for example, regular expressions are good enough for this and yet sub-TC 17:34:06 yeah. pretty much anything that has the capability to expand the neighborhood of a given cell can do that. 17:36:20 ..wait, regexes are FSMs. 17:37:05 so, they are good enough for this by your word. :P 17:37:52 imode: different level of FSMs 17:38:03 a regex processes input as it reads it 17:38:17 whereas the FSMs we were talking about earlier just have a single input and aren't applied iteratively to it 17:39:09 not sure what you're talking about because both march along iteratively along their respective inputs. 17:39:17 be it the board or the string they're fed. 17:39:19 imode: take Life as an example 17:39:46 the algorithm for calculating one cell there is based on having one output for each of the 512 possible inputs (each of which is the state of the cell and adjacent cells) 17:40:18 it's not typically based on reading the cells one at a time and having an internal state that updates with each cell read; that'd be substantially more complex as you'd need to count the cells to know which one was the central one 17:41:00 you could describe life as an FSM, because the transition between "alive" and "dead" depends on the sum of its neighbors, which can be fed as input to the FSM. 17:41:50 Is there something like a cellular automaton where instead of discrete cells you have a continuous function? 17:42:00 it's also not hard to do naive iteration over the whole board using that. just keep applying the same function to each cell over and over, running from row to row. 17:42:10 shachaf: smoothlife. 17:42:36 Ah, maybe I've seen this before. 17:43:40 ais523: in that way, the whole board can be seen as an array of finite state machines, hooked up to a 'sum' unit that adds all of a cell's neighbors together and feeds it to the FSM underneath it. 17:43:51 shachaf: Wolfram generated a few of those, but I'm not sure if any were actually studied from a programming point of view 17:44:18 imode: in that sense, a regex isn't an FSM, then 17:44:31 in what way? 17:44:35 as it needs to take input in an entirely different way to be implementable with an FSM 17:44:54 you can think of a regex as a robot that moves around the grid, reading cells, but has a finite amount of internal state 17:45:16 if it can only move in one direction in a straight line, you have a regex amount of power 17:45:22 I'm aware. but if you leave it in place, marching along the string just means "marching in time." 17:45:39 if it can backtrack, it's more powerful than that (potentially even TC if you have two dimensions) 17:45:39 meaning you're continuously reading the neighborhood around you as it evolves. 17:50:31 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 17:50:53 I guess if you don't need FTL communication a non-TC rule language would suffice. 17:51:03 or analog states. 17:53:10 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:18:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:04:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:06:50 -!- rdococ has left ("Leaving"). 19:12:40 -!- zseri has joined. 19:13:42 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:23:05 -!- Remavas has joined. 19:39:19 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 20:26:16 I wonder how hard it'd be to get a "reasonable" approximation of something like gravity or magnetism in a CA. 20:31:02 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:43:00 -!- Cale has joined. 20:45:51 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 20:47:45 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:54:47 imode, hard b/c there's no galilean invariance in a ca 20:54:53 and they're discretised 20:54:54 and local 20:58:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:11:00 Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty easy to make something fall in a given direction, but I imagine you'd run into limits regarding the neighborhoods of each cell. instead of orbits you'd get everything just pushing towards the gravity source. 21:11:36 i remember voraciously reading everything i could find on this, probably nearly a decade ago now 21:11:47 i don't think anyone had a decent model of gravity in a CA 21:12:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:13:08 yeah. I don't know what other "games" do, but something like The Powder Toy treats the world state as a set of particles rather than a grid with cells. 21:14:28 yes, it's extremely non-CA 21:16:14 I know you can do a sort of gradient, where if you place a "black hole" state in one cell, it'll spawn a bunch of force cells around it that point towards it with a certain strength, but at that point you might as well go with particles. 21:31:43 modelling motion in a ca is hard in general because motion is all about 'hidden' state 21:33:10 yeah.. 21:35:06 you can try to model it via afterimages and a sort of type+force state model. 21:35:36 yes but you discard so much parsimony in doing that that i've never really seen the point 21:35:49 yeah. you might as well take the high road and just do sparse particles. 21:45:00 `pbflist 21:45:01 pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas 21:49:02 `? pbflist 21:49:03 pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/ 21:53:46 good lord they're getting racy 22:00:42 -!- MDude has joined. 22:01:21 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:03:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:06:07 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:07:36 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:08:40 I found another of these cases when searching for "all" in a search web interface doesn't work, you have to choose a specific category. Aleph library catalog of MTA Kvt, entered an ISSN number to the single-field search form, leave default "any field" gives no hits, but if I choose "ISSN" instead, it does work. 22:09:26 What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't understand what "any field" is, then don't make the fucking selection box say that! Say "some random fields" or "author or title" or just exclude it entirely. 22:10:08 URL of catalog is http://opac.mtak.hu 22:17:13 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:19:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:29:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:38:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:50:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:00:04 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:16:56 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 23:21:58 -!- boily has joined. 23:28:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:30:50 boily!!! 23:31:00 ithought u were ded 23:42:58 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:43:15 -!- ^v has joined. 23:50:18 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:53:54 QUINTHELLOPIA! 23:53:58 I was on vacation. 23:54:02 were you postcarded? 23:55:49 -!- ^v has joined. 23:57:54 -!- jaboja has joined. 2017-09-28: 00:03:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:03:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:20:03 -!- nchambers has changed nick to apunzoref. 00:20:18 bohily 00:28:47 hellørjan! 00:30:08 @metar WAHH 00:30:09 No result. 00:30:15 eh? 00:30:19 waht 00:30:30 @metar WIII 00:30:30 `airport WAHH 00:30:31 WIII 272300Z VRB03KT 2300 BR SCT019 25/25 Q1012 NOSIG 00:30:32 No output. 00:30:38 `airport WIII 00:30:38 Soekarno Hatta Intl (CGK, WIII) 00:30:46 @metar CYUL 00:30:46 CYUL 272300Z 28011G16KT 15SM FEW030TCU FEW045 SCT090 BKN140 OVC220 22/20 A2968 RMK TCU1SC2AC2AC3CI1 TCU TR SLP051 DENSITY ALT 1300FT 00:30:50 looks indonesian 00:30:58 it is. 00:32:09 . o O ( what did you do in your vacation? i got to know Java better ) 00:32:43 I went to Jakarta (two nights), Bandar Seri Begawan, Denpasar and Yogyakarta. 00:33:47 sounds like Java all right 00:34:45 I spent six nights each at the other places, visited temples, other cities, jungles, forests, ate random unknown things and took sunny pictures ^^ 00:35:43 as long as you weren't eaten by random unknown things 00:36:08 I appear to have remained intact hth 00:41:04 `5 w 00:41:09 1/3:ipa//The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word. \ welcome.fr//Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des lang 00:42:29 `n 00:42:30 2/3:ages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: . (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.) \ magus//magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. \ claustrophobia//Claustrophobia thought the wisdom database was getting too crowded, so left. \ 9 00:42:33 `n 00:42:34 3/3://9 is a free smalltalk. 00:42:40 Can IPA encode beer? 00:46:25 shachaf: btw I don't even hate phabricator or arcanist. I can see its appeal, but I'd need a few weeks of practice to become fluent with arcanist, and that's not happening when I'm contributing one patch every 6 months to ghc :P 00:46:53 so in reality I'd have to relearn the tool every single time, and that's tedious. 00:48:35 Right, so what you're saying is, more things should use Phabricator. 00:50:35 boily: exciting! no postcard tho 00:53:13 shachaf: well, not exactly. 00:54:16 I think code review is important and lacking in many projects. 00:54:43 it should have a baby version of its console with 3 buttons (or was it 2 or 4?) instead of hundreds. 00:54:44 I have my complaints about Phabricator, but it's better than the status quo. 00:54:57 Which console? 00:55:08 (I'm trying to make a reference to Inside out) 00:55:56 Not familiar. 00:57:35 boily: how long are your femurs, as a fraction of your height 00:58:34 quintopia: darn. may take a few more days! 00:58:59 quintopia: I'd say about a quarter, eh? 00:59:01 Well, the movie has a bunch of characters inside the brain of a human... they control it (mostly its emotions) by pushing buttons on a console. And it starts out with a baby and very few buttons, (one for happiness, one for sadness, I forgot whether there are any more). And then the console gets more and more complicated as the child grows up. 01:00:35 Oh wait, the buttons were for crying and laughter. The characters are the emotions. Anyway, it was a cute movie, I should watch it again to refresh my memory :) 01:01:09 Babies are so complicated. 01:02:00 it's amazing how any babies survive the first week. 01:05:18 I was a baby myself, once. 01:05:57 I've heard stories and seen pictures. 01:06:21 You have? 01:06:54 i,i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAWvvE9w6Po 01:07:18 shachaf: I mean I don't remember being a baby. 01:09:44 Oh, of you, not of me. 01:11:12 there was a time where int-e was a short-e. 01:12:11 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:12:13 I thought int-e was interrupt $0xe 01:13:26 int-e: which type are you? 01:22:09 -!- apunzoref has changed nick to nchambers. 01:23:15 boily: mine are 26%. theres a kid at 30% 01:29:33 ! 01:33:11 this girl in front of me declined measurement 01:33:20 but id guess 40+ 01:35:26 a very femury person. 01:40:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PURPOSE CHICKEN). 01:41:48 -!- augur has joined. 01:58:14 I got out the measuring tape and I'm 25% 02:29:48 `? oerjan 02:29:49 Your omnipheasant back principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 02:30:08 `swrjan s/pheasant back/dryad saddle/ 02:30:10 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 02:30:28 . o O ( what's that ) 02:30:47 oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerioporus_squamosus hth 02:30:48 -!- ski has joined. 02:31:40 ah, squamous, my favorite "sounds more evil than it is" word 02:31:59 (mostly because i saw it first in lovecraft quotes, i think) 02:32:44 -!- MrBusiness3 has changed nick to MRBusiness. 02:32:57 -!- MRBusiness has changed nick to MrBusiness. 02:34:21 `swrjan s/lane/road/ 02:34:23 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 02:39:58 `swrjan s/diss/miss/ 02:40:00 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty arrant "Darth Ept" oerjan the shifty flame is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who misses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 02:40:27 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:40:37 Can you remember the word "depreciation"? 02:40:50 Or "depreciated", I suppose. 02:42:18 i used it so rarely i deprecated it hth 02:51:30 -!- MDude has joined. 02:52:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:53:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:30 -!- MDead has joined. 03:08:18 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:08:25 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 03:09:07 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:31:24 oerjan: Do you like _Mathematics Made Difficult_? 03:32:15 i haven't read it 03:32:39 seems like your type of humour hth 03:32:44 http://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/math_hard.pdf (25MB) 03:32:58 not going to read it any time soon. 03:33:22 -!- sleffy has joined. 03:33:41 food -> 03:39:13 oerjan: maybe ørjan would like it better 03:39:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:39:53 -!- augur has joined. 03:44:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:52:49 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:56:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:57:00 -!- augur has joined. 04:01:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:08:34 -!- augur has joined. 04:19:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:34:09 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:34:43 -!- augur has joined. 04:40:30 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 04:41:52 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 04:45:10 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 04:45:24 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 04:47:13 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 04:53:35 -!- int-e has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:57:48 -!- MDude has joined. 05:01:20 -!- int-e has joined. 05:43:45 -!- Remavas has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:46:29 -!- Remavas has joined. 05:49:09 -!- tromp has joined. 05:56:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:59:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:11:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:27:34 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:27:44 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:30:33 -!- tromp has joined. 06:35:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:35:51 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:04:30 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:15:16 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:20:29 -!- tromp has joined. 08:17:56 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:18:16 -!- Remavas has joined. 08:33:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:42:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:51:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:55:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 08:55:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:59:30 shachaf: I misremembered, btw. The baby has only one button; regardless of the emotion, it will cry :P 09:10:23 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:46:54 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:54:56 I just found out randomly from the internet that there's a museum of natural sciences in Budapest. Why did nobody ever tell that to me? Is it so small, with all the valuable stuff removed during the second world war or what? 10:56:14 I've been to the big one in Wien. 10:57:41 Apparently it moved to its current location in 1999. 10:57:52 Also, apparently it's not even small. 10:58:23 Why does nobody tell me useful things like this? 10:58:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:59:48 I'll urgently have to watch this one before it gets wrecked because of politics, but it's possible that it's already got wrecked, in which case I screwed up. 11:03:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:04:45 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 11:09:10 -!- boily has joined. 11:15:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 11:15:45 Update: yes, it's already started to get wrecked for political reasons. I'm sort of too late. 11:15:54 Still have to watch it soon. 11:16:11 I'll ask my brother tomorrow for why he never told me about this one. 12:00:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OSSATURE CHICKEN). 12:39:59 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:45:16 fungot, why didn't you tell me? 13:45:16 b_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes 13:45:25 that's not a good reason! 14:00:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:01:15 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 14:16:02 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 14:17:38 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:18:28 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:25:00 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:37:24 -!- erkin has joined. 14:48:36 -!- SigmundYx has joined. 14:53:01 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:54:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:07:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:10:06 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:45:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:52:32 -!- sleffy has joined. 15:55:29 -!- SigmundYx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:01:31 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 16:16:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:30:51 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 17:13:55 This is a pretty funny linguistic meme http://allthingslinguistic.com/post/165809617830/youve-heard-of-elf-on-the-shelf-now-get-ready 17:30:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:42:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:48:18 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:54:19 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:16:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:19:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:19:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 18:19:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:21:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:25:12 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:45:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:46:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:59:20 -!- imode has joined. 19:23:56 <\oren\_> doesthiswork: LOL 19:29:00 doesthiswork: i don't get the first one 19:35:12 wait never mind it just clicked for me 19:50:00 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:23:58 good one 20:28:40 -!- zseri has joined. 20:30:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:32:37 `? metasepia 20:32:38 metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks. 21:20:39 `5 w 21:20:45 1/2:ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/ \ slereah//Slereah est sur un téléphone \ postorder//Postorder is the same as Polish notation, since Post was Polish. Not to be confused with reverse Polish notation, which is postfix. \ clever//Being clever is different from being 21:20:49 `n 21:20:50 2/2:wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities. \ pogrifon//A pogrifon is stim for a gostak's shamtag. 21:40:33 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:06:12 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:30:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:31:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:31:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:37:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 22:37:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:50:51 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:51:05 -!- Remavas has joined. 22:51:23 -!- augur has joined. 23:01:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:35:33 -!- boily has joined. 23:47:47 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 23:48:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:37 -!- augur has joined. 23:52:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2017-09-29: 00:00:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:10:28 -!- imode has joined. 00:11:08 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:15:06 `5 w 00:15:12 1/2:i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ reference//reference is dangling, sorry. \ cofridge//Cofridges are ovens or stoves that are disrespectful towards entropy. They are useful for postparing ffee and oking cofood. \ twhib//the world holds its breath \ wisdome//The Wisdome is 00:15:13 `n 00:15:14 2/2:the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere". 00:15:30 -!- ATMunn has joined. 00:16:42 helloily 00:25:33 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:25:58 -!- Remavas has joined. 00:27:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:31:35 -!- Remavas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:09 QUINTHELLOPIA! 00:35:17 bgood day to youily 00:37:11 dhelloesthiswork! 00:53:36 buenoilys dias 01:07:02 that's a new one! 01:18:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BLUE CHICKEN). 01:18:24 -!- augur has joined. 01:18:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:18:43 -!- augur has joined. 01:31:59 -!- Cale has joined. 01:49:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:15:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:19:27 doesthiswork: i don't get the first one <-- i got that, but i don't get the second one :( 02:20:05 i'm assuming there's some phonetic symbol resembling those birds, but i cannot find it. 02:22:14 either that or those birds have a name i haven't absorbed 02:22:25 I'll wait until it clicks 02:23:13 i said i got that one 02:23:31 for the second one, the first mug has one wug 02:23:41 there are three ___ on the mugs 02:24:20 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/secretlife/blogposts/whats-a-wug/ 02:25:00 sorryjan, I miss parsed your quote 02:25:25 aha. 02:26:00 i found the wikipedia page first. definitely seen that some time. 03:00:51 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:26:17 -!- erkin has joined. 03:55:36 -!- tromp has joined. 04:00:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:00:08 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:04:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:50:29 -!- tromp has joined. 04:54:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:36:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:36:40 -!- augur has joined. 05:38:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:39:00 -!- augur has joined. 05:44:18 -!- tromp has joined. 05:46:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:49:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:55:29 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:00:49 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:02:08 -!- augur has joined. 06:06:35 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:27:59 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:40:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:04:35 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:16:10 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 07:32:33 -!- tromp has joined. 07:37:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:41:27 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 08:03:19 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:42 -!- tromp has joined. 08:34:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:30:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:36:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:04:38 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:37:33 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:38:56 -!- MDude has joined. 10:43:12 uh. I don't think that's right. 10:43:53 `? postfix 10:43:55 postfix? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:48:01 `learn Postfix is a genericized trademark of household adhesives for sticking little pieces of paper on your door or monitor to remind you of something or telling your officemates your login password. Called Tack-it in the U.S. 10:48:04 Learned 'postfix': Postfix is a genericized trademark of household adhesives for sticking little pieces of paper on your door or monitor to remind you of something or telling your officemates your login password. Called Tack-it in the U.S. 10:49:19 (Note: this is a mix-up of "post-it", which is the genericized trademark brand name of 3M's sticky notes (small note papers with adhesives on it), cloned by lots of other brands but IME always with much worse quality than the originals; 10:50:38 and of "Blue tack" (U.S.) or "UHU Patafix" (Europe), the name of reusable adhesive blobs for sticking ordinary pieces of paper (not ones that already have adhesives built in) to your door or monitor. I think it's renamed from "Blue tack" because the version sold in Europe these days is white, not blue.) 10:50:54 (Way to ruin the joke, but I'm putting it in the log in case someone wants to delete the entry later.) 11:06:46 `ysaclist 65 11:06:47 ysaclist 65: boily shachaf 11:06:48 `ysaclist 66 11:06:49 ysaclist 66: boily shachaf 11:06:59 Not sure I want to watch 65... 11:07:46 boily isn't even here 11:10:53 -!- moony has joined. 11:11:02 -!- moony has changed nick to Guest12180. 11:21:26 huh 11:21:31 `? ysaclist 11:21:32 ysaclist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:21:35 `? ysac 11:21:36 ysac? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:21:39 what's that 11:32:50 -!- boily has joined. 11:56:49 Eww. HTML page puts both the sidebar and the main section in floating sections. Such a stupid idae. 12:01:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ORTHORHOMBIC CHICKEN). 12:10:17 -!- tromp has joined. 12:15:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:17:38 -!- tromp has joined. 13:46:41 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:50:28 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 14:00:33 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:01:17 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 14:15:30 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:53:32 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:55:34 -!- erkin has joined. 15:14:22 In today's http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/your-grandfather , do the "dwarven swordsmiths" LoTR style dwarves, D&D dwarves, or Discworld dwarves? It would sort of matter for the context of how cool that weapon is. 15:23:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:26:20 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:27:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:32:57 -!- imode has joined. 15:35:40 -!- tromp has joined. 15:36:28 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:41:52 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 15:42:14 -!- sleffy has joined. 16:12:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:21:44 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:54:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:07:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:08:30 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:10:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:12:11 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:20:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:20:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:40:30 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Strake * New user account 17:49:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:52:32 -!- `^_^v has joined. 18:13:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:15:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:51 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:37:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:39:32 b_jonas: Bread as a weapon sort of inherently suggests Discworld dwarves. 18:39:54 https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Dwarf_Bread 18:41:01 (On the other hand, in that case the "dwarven swordsmiths" would presumably have known how to handle it.) 18:46:16 why does it have to be one kind of dwarf or another, when it could be a merry mixture of them all 19:11:09 that sounds interesting 19:23:09 what does "carried it over the gray mountains" suggesT? 19:23:21 doesthiswork: this is re http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/your-grandfather 19:24:05 https://www.xkcd.com/921/ clearly suggests LotR on the other hand 19:24:09 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:25:43 Xkcd and smbc has so much of the same themes all the time that I wonder if Randall basically just sold his website to Zach after like the first thirty comics and now Zach posts strips of two different styles to them for a different target audience. 19:43:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:56:33 -!- augur has joined. 19:56:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:07 -!- augur has joined. 20:01:33 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:03:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:10:02 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:14:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:18:28 -!- dan_zh has joined. 20:18:41 Hi! 20:18:55 Lo! 20:19:03 I've just had a Idea for a esocetric language 20:20:04 what's the big idea? 20:21:07 A polite language :) 20:21:38 how interesting, what does it do that is polite? 20:21:59 The user needs to be polite. 20:24:15 what happens if they are overly sarcastic 20:24:28 . o O ( s/brainfuck/braindead/ ) 20:24:39 So, like the user needs to say PLEASE before doing anything. e.g PLEASE PRINT "HELLO" 20:24:52 dan_zh: do you know INTERCAL? 20:25:02 Nope. 20:25:21 let's just say that there's little new under the sun 20:25:44 oh, INTERCAL! FORGOT ABOUT IT!! 20:25:57 BF's more nicer. 20:28:53 Well, i wont my language(countdown) to have WEIRDER syntax. I just implemented it in python3 20:29:21 -!- dan_zh has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:29:22 I should write an OOP funge 20:29:27 not sure how that would work though 20:29:32 functions are manageable 20:29:36 OOP... eh 20:33:51 maybe replace the befunge stack with message passing? 20:36:23 actor-based befunge? 20:36:37 hm 20:40:11 @metar CYVR 20:40:11 CYVR 291936Z 13009KT 10SM SCT010 BKN018 OVC051 16/15 A2991 RMK SF3SC4SC1 SLP129 DENSITY ALT 200FT 20:50:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:20:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:19:29 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:20:28 -!- imode has joined. 22:22:44 -!- sleffy has joined. 22:44:02 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:53:32 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:33:40 -!- iovoid has joined. 23:33:40 -!- iovoid has quit (Changing host). 23:33:40 -!- iovoid has joined. 2017-09-30: 01:06:05 -!- boily has joined. 01:09:40 `5 w 01:09:46 1/2:hacker//Jim Hacker is a former British prime minister. \ ais523//Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. \ rho//Rho is the Greek letter that represents the mind, and thus psychology is called rho 01:09:47 `n 01:09:48 2/2:science. Today's reductionists consider the mind obsolete, and prefer to study new rho science. \ treat//Treats are tasty. \ macabre//The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries. 01:10:54 `cwlprits rho 01:11:02 shachäf 01:11:03 figures 01:11:05 forget rho 01:11:19 `forget rho 01:11:21 Forget what? 01:14:09 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:14:12 `? irish 01:14:13 irish? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:14:22 `? english 01:14:24 English is an inherently ambiguous context-sensitive language that is too powerful to fully describe itself. 01:14:26 `? french 01:14:28 Le français n'est pas le démon, visitez les Coupeurs. Ne pas couvrir. Meilleur avant! 01:14:35 `? japanese 01:14:36 japanese? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:28:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:31:19 helloochaf, bonsoircah. 01:31:44 \o 01:38:31 You missed the ysaclist 01:38:44 But they're forgettable, I think 01:40:09 `? ysaclist 01:40:10 ysaclist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:46:00 I was either on vacation and/or lagged when they were issued. last two episodes were very short :/ 01:46:18 primitive technology was nice, tho. 01:47:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:49:01 boily: Sure, sign me up for ptlist 01:49:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:50:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:55:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ELECTRONIC CHICKEN). 01:56:18 what is ysac and pt? 01:58:04 I think pt is often physical therapy 01:59:55 and other times programming theory? 02:01:23 Perhaps. 02:01:46 In this case I meant the first two words of boily's last sentence 02:02:01 AHA! 02:25:04 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 02:27:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:45:44 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:01:43 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: humans need sleep, unfortunately). 03:06:11 -!- erkin has joined. 03:09:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:11:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:44:10 -!- tromp has joined. 03:48:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:32:20 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:38:23 -!- tromp has joined. 04:42:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:10:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:32:30 -!- tromp has joined. 05:33:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:37:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:51:21 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:12:05 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:28:14 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:03:52 -!- tromp has joined. 07:05:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:05:35 -!- tromp has joined. 07:07:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:14:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 07:16:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:23:09 23:22 i,i an esolang where every time you make a mistake one more thing becomes undefined behavior 07:23:14 23:22 There's plenty of self-modifying code, but are there self-modifying languages? 07:26:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 07:32:27 * Taneb good morning 07:33:54 -!- tromp has joined. 07:36:54 Good morneb. 07:47:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:47:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:16:30 -!- augur has joined. 08:28:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:11:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:19:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:20:48 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:47:09 shachaf: There are self-modifying languages, I think 09:50:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:47 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dan zh * New user account 10:20:04 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53142&oldid=53140 * Dan zh * (+136) 10:21:49 [wiki] [[User:Dan zh]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53143 * Dan zh * (+101) Created page with "Hi! I am Danil! I like making translators from different languages. I'm Reacheable(sometimes) by IRC." 10:22:58 -!- dan_zh has joined. 10:23:23 Hello there! 10:36:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 10:42:39 -!- dan_zh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:15:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:18:31 Finally got paper for my printer! 12:18:34 What should I print 12:19:12 black pages until you run out of ink or toner :P 12:19:45 or dark brown if it's a color printer 12:19:54 int-e, I'd probably run out of paper first 12:20:11 And I'd like to print something slightly more interesting 12:20:40 Like "Quantum Lambda Calculi with Calssical Control: Syntax and Expressive Power" 12:24:18 print all papers from https://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm ? ;-) 12:31:19 or print the source code of X11R6, I hear it's a classic 12:35:57 Maybe print a play. 12:44:43 or #esoteric logs 13:00:51 Print ASCII art to tape on your walls. 13:01:43 Did I mention the time I hooked a tractor feed dot matrix printer to IRC? That got old fast. 13:01:48 (They're p. noisy.) 13:06:23 . o O ( that must have come as a big surprise ) 13:18:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:52:09 [wiki] [[Countdown]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53144 * Dan zh * (+583) Created page with "Countdown is a Quite Easy Esoteric Programming Translator. The code is here: global stack stack = [0 , 0, 0] print("Hello! This is the countdown translator!!") print("countdo..." 13:53:11 [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53145&oldid=53144 * Dan zh * (+18) 13:53:54 [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53146&oldid=53145 * Dan zh * (+10) 13:54:13 [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53147&oldid=53146 * Dan zh * (+1) 13:59:03 [wiki] [[Countdown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53148&oldid=53147 * Dan zh * (+146) 14:00:17 [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53149&oldid=53148 * Dan zh * (-55) 14:00:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:01:12 [wiki] [[Countdown]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53150&oldid=53149 * Dan zh * (+33) 14:01:30 [wiki] [[Countdown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53151&oldid=53150 * Dan zh * (+1) 14:08:15 [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53152&oldid=53075 * Dan zh * (+16) 14:13:58 -!- jaboja has joined. 14:24:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:40:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:41:33 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:57:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:12:17 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:47:33 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:16:49 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:21:43 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:21:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 16:38:38 I think you do not need to print something right away; it can be a waste of paper. Make a printout of something on the times when you need/want them. 16:51:35 -!- zseri has joined. 16:57:19 -!- cyber4dude has joined. 17:14:17 -!- Remavas has joined. 17:36:33 -!- sleffy has joined. 18:02:00 -!- cyber4dude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:23:22 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:27:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:29:54 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:33:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH). 18:33:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:07:04 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:30:04 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:06:00 Maybe print a calendar, if you do not already have one. 20:09:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:10:55 Do you like the kind of computer game I make up? It is not quite finish yet, but, many buildings are larger inside but not all; the castle is much smaller inside. On the outside it spans multiple screens, but on the inside it takes up less than a quarter of the screen (and part of the screen is taken up by a message "Why is this castle so small inside? It look much bigger outside") 20:12:15 -!- imode has joined. 20:12:37 cal -y | lpr 20:13:38 FreeFull: Yes it is one way to print out the calendar, if you do not need to add the holidays and spaces to write your own markings per days and so on 20:16:39 The king and queen nevertheless does not want this kind of strange monsters in their castle (even though the note says that any people (or monsters) who solve this puzzle are allowed in) and will cast a spell on you!!! 20:27:30 zzo38, thank you for the advice 20:27:48 I ended up print a chapter of a book on quantum lambda calculus (I am kind of into QLC right now) 20:31:08 OK, if you like that, then that is good 20:38:14 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:40:37 how does qlc work 20:43:30 I don't know, but I should learn too, if you explain it please 20:44:32 I presume you are familiar with regular lambda calculus 20:44:48 Or rather, simply typed lambda calculus 20:46:23 Yes 20:48:01 And linear typing? 20:52:18 If you take a simply typed lambda calculus with linear typing, product types, and like the version I'm reading has sum types and also recursion 20:52:30 And also a qubit type 20:52:35 I know linear logic, I don't know how linear typing is work 20:53:12 I don't know if linear logic is related to linear typing 20:53:25 I also don't know 20:54:05 But linear typing is a way of encoding "you can only use this value once" in a type system 20:55:26 Well, linear logic can do that too 20:55:51 linear logic is "you can only use this premise once (unless there's a bang)" - the connection is the usual one between lambda calculus and sequent calculus 20:55:58 (afaiui) 20:56:19 int-e: Yes, I think that is correct 20:56:48 you must use the premise as well... the same is true for the linear arguments in the linear lambda calculus 20:57:45 Anyway, it works out that linear typing is good for representing quantum state 20:57:48 But linear typing is a way of encoding "you can only use this value once" in a type system 20:58:08 so that's because you're representing quantum computations that have to conserve information 20:58:09 correct? 20:58:12 Yeah 20:58:26 (I should have said "exactly once", sorry) 20:59:43 I think linear logic also has a question mark, which is like exclamation mark but on the other side of the logic instead. 21:00:28 hi zzo38 21:00:52 Hello 21:01:41 Is !A the same as, uh, 1 & A & A⊗A & A⊗A⊗A & ... ? 21:04:20 -!- sleffy has joined. 21:04:42 I have read somewhere that it is possible to have multiple kind of ! and ? which act in the same way but are incompatible. 21:05:29 shachaf, I don't think that that is the case in QLC 21:06:29 -!- augur has joined. 21:07:36 shachaf: you do get !x |- x though, and !x = !x,!x in contexts (in the sense that anything provable with !x,!x in the context is provable with !x and vice versa) 21:08:21 int-e: And also !x |- 1, right? Or whatever that thing was. 21:08:32 And !x |- !!x? 21:08:35 ! behaves like a comonad and !x behaves like a comonoid. Or something. 21:09:06 shachaf: there's no !!x in the syntax. 21:09:13 (in what I'm currently reading) 21:09:31 "A Lambda Calculus for Quantum Computation" by van Tonder 21:09:43 !(!x) 21:10:04 oh wait. 21:10:15 I misunderstood. Let me check 21:10:33 int-e, there is in what I am reading, Quantum Lambda Calculus by Selinger and Valiron 21:10:35 yes, you hget !x |- !!x 21:11:01 unfamiliar territory, mistakes happen :) 21:11:12 I think in maybe two or three years I would like to do a PhD in QLC (once I have some money saved up) 21:14:01 shachaf: (what happened was that I was focussed on abstractions, where there's no !!x, instead of terms, where such a thing does exist) 21:15:03 Abstractions? 21:15:18 λx . t and λ!x . t 21:15:43 Taneb: Maybe you should save up money by coming to work in California. 21:15:50 You could work at that quantum computing startup in Berkeley. 21:17:34 For the foreseeable future I'd much rather work in Europe 21:17:39 What does ! mean in a lambda? 21:18:22 that the argument is non-linear 21:18:49 it corresponds to having !x in the proof context 21:18:52 Does it have a different type? 21:19:13 it's --> vs. --o 21:19:22 TG 21:40:09 int-e, I'm printing a copy of van Tonder's thing 21:46:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:00:03 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 22:00:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:00:08 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 22:22:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive.). 22:22:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:33:41 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:40:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:41:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:43:00 -!- Remavas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:43:25 -!- Remavas has joined. 22:43:38 -!- augur has joined. 23:00:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:14:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: qut). 23:20:55 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:50:36 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Random dude * New user account 23:51:35 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53153&oldid=53142 * Random dude * (+199) /* Introductions */ 23:52:02 -!- Cthulhux has joined.