00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in).
00:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined.
00:05:14 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
00:10:26 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:14:46 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:18:38 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. the fungot has left :(
00:24:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:betty crocker//Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. \ manglophobia//Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms. \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ s//Esses are confusing. \ ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. Th
00:25:25 <HackEgo> 2/2:e Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
00:25:26 -!- imode has joined.
00:37:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53158&oldid=52440 * Challenger5 * (+0)
01:01:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
01:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53159&oldid=52467 * Challenger5 * (+762)
01:31:40 -!- fungot has joined.
01:42:21 <fungot> boily: dromiceiomimus, i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women
01:48:07 <fizzie> Our internet left. (And then came back.)
01:48:25 <HackEgo> 834) <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
01:55:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CAUGHT CHICKEN).
02:11:02 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
02:44:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:51:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:06:42 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bye).
03:37:28 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:55:33 -!- fungot has joined.
04:32:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:16:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
05:48:49 -!- Antoxyde has joined.
06:07:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
06:42:11 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:16:01 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
07:26:21 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
07:54:20 -!- zseri has joined.
08:46:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
09:10:58 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:18:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
09:24:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:33:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:18:16 -!- sleffy has joined.
10:24:34 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
10:34:15 -!- impomatic has joined.
10:46:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:49:09 -!- tromp has joined.
11:30:07 <b_jonas> Stupid thought: Windows renamed the Explorer program to File Explorer between Windows 7 and Windows 10, presumably because "Explorer" was too confusing: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/cave-explorer/
11:34:26 -!- boily has joined.
11:49:28 <b_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1897/ - they could outsource driving to twitch chat
11:50:32 <b_jonas> also, I brought up this point about gamifying the AI task we want to solve for a work project, but my supervisor said no.
11:55:27 <Vorpal> b_jonas: you mean like twitch plays pokemon?
11:56:50 <b_jonas> well, it's possible that twitch chat isn't the best format for getting the driving input, but it could still be turned to a game through internet and twitch would popularize the game
11:57:35 <b_jonas> twitch usually has a higher latency than you could get if you made a game that only people with a good enough net connection could play (or at least only people with a good net connection would give input that actually matters for driving the car)
12:15:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SHED CHICKEN).
12:26:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:30:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
13:06:37 -!- erkin has joined.
13:11:25 -!- LKoen has joined.
13:31:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:50:19 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:00:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:20:27 -!- ATMunn has joined.
14:43:31 -!- `^_^v has joined.
15:26:52 -!- zseri has joined.
15:27:30 <b_jonas> Apparently there was a mass shooting with over 50 people dead yesterday in Las Vegas.
15:27:47 <b_jonas> no wait, not in Last Vegas, but somewher else in Nevada
15:49:53 <int-e> hehe. http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gzip/gzip-1.8.tar.xz
15:54:27 <b_jonas> int-e: they also have a tar.gz at the same place
15:55:41 <int-e> Which is also funny but in a different way.
15:56:15 <ais523> you'd think they'd have uncompressed source
15:56:20 <ais523> given the purpose of gzip
15:56:48 <ais523> this reminds me of the time I wrote a version of uudecode using only printable characters…
15:57:21 <ais523> (more specifically, I wrote an encoder similar to uuencode that produced executables as output; you could run this on uudecode itself in order to get uudecode onto a system that didn't have it)
15:57:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but on the other hand, you also can't bootstrap building a shell without having a shell, and can't build a C compiler if you don't have a C compiler, and compared to either of those, gzip is much more well spread
15:57:43 -!- danil has joined.
15:58:02 <ais523> b_jonas: C compilers should be provided as executables for that reason (and commonly are)
15:58:13 <ais523> in addition to the source form
15:58:18 <b_jonas> ais523: also, zlib is likely literally the software that's installed in the most places, and it's not that hard to write gzip from libc;
15:58:41 <ais523> building a shell with no shell could be tricky, perhaps you could do it via repeatedly rebooting the system and setting the compiler, linker, etc. as init
15:58:47 <b_jonas> plus there's also a very portable gzip decompressor at https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz
15:59:01 <b_jonas> which is much more limited and slower than gzip, but still works
15:59:15 <ais523> (note that this is pretty much just theoretical; you're unlikely to have a working compiler and linker but no working shell)
15:59:18 <b_jonas> and you're most likely to have a decompressor that understands gzip than a program that understands that version of tar too
15:59:44 <b_jonas> ais523: people have problems with building very portable programs on windows because it's hard to find a suitable shell to run the build scripts
15:59:53 <b_jonas> this is for C programs that are very portable so they're easy to build
15:59:57 <ais523> Windows has a working shell, though (two, in fact)
16:00:08 <ais523> it's just that the programs in question have build scripts written for a different dialect of shellscript
16:00:10 <b_jonas> you also need a gnu make, but gnu make provides a shell script to build itself without needing any make first
16:00:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why I say a posix-like shell
16:00:28 <danil> whatcha talking about?
16:00:30 <ais523> besides you could probably just build it with aimake
16:00:32 <b_jonas> not specifically bash, but nothing windows-like
16:00:43 <ais523> danil: trying to build build tools without having the build tool itself in advance
16:01:35 <b_jonas> what I don't like is how 7-zip now only distributes the latest versions of its source code in 7-zip and self-extracting 7-zip formats, and the self-extracting part runs only on windows (you can extract it with a 7zip program anywhere),
16:01:36 <ais523> I guess an OS missing build tools is something of an esolang in its own right
16:01:37 -!- sleffy has joined.
16:01:42 <ais523> it has commands but not the ones you actually wanted
16:01:53 <b_jonas> despite that the source code has the command-line version that works on unices too
16:02:02 <danil> at least 7zip works
16:02:05 <b_jonas> in previous versions, they used to distribute the source code as bzip2
16:02:25 <ais523> I assume Debian still distributes it as xz or something?
16:02:40 <b_jonas> ais523: probably something like that, I don't know how they compress their programs
16:02:48 <danil> RAR and other zip utilities understand 7zip format
16:02:50 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:03:24 <b_jonas> also, if anyone wants, I can give you all parts of 7-zip packed in whatever reasonable format you want
16:03:33 <b_jonas> I actually have zip versions of some of what they distrubute
16:03:43 <ais523> what about unreasonable formats?
16:04:00 <b_jonas> those are the windows executables, I keep them just in case
16:04:08 <b_jonas> they should distribute the source code in zip format
16:04:44 <ais523> clearly it should be distributed as an uncompressed shar
16:04:45 <b_jonas> ais523: I can provide some unreasonable formats too, but not just any unreasonable format
16:04:46 <ais523> that was reasonable once
16:04:51 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:04:55 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure I used it for something as a joke at one point, possibly C-INTERCAL
16:05:11 <ais523> oh, hmm, maybe I posted a new version of C-INTERCAL to Usenet directly for tradition's sake?
16:05:19 <ais523> it's the sort of thing I'd do
16:05:36 -!- danil has joined.
16:06:11 <danil> 7ZIP works on my Ubuntu.
16:07:11 <danil> BTW, whats a 'hypercide'
16:07:33 <danil> Sorry, BTW whats a 'hypercube'
16:07:35 <b_jonas> danil: yes, that's p7zip, 7zip's own command-line port to linux, which works almost the same as their windows command-line version
16:07:44 <b_jonas> works more or less decently but with a horrible user interface
16:07:52 <ais523> danil: a hypercube is a 4 (or more)-dimensional generalization of a cube
16:07:52 <b_jonas> developped by the 7-zip devs themselves
16:08:12 <ais523> you can think of a cube as being two squares, with corresponding corners connected
16:08:25 <ais523> that's fairly easy to visualise because humans are used to both 2D and 3D
16:08:34 <danil> 'Welcome to the international hyper cube for esoteric languages'
16:08:37 <ais523> but the two squares are in separate 2D planes
16:09:10 <ais523> so a hypercube is that a dimension higher up; you get two 3D cubes in separate 3D spaces (think parallel universes or the like), and then connect all the corners
16:09:13 <b_jonas> they provide the source code of the unix command-line version at least as bz2
16:09:16 <ais523> err, corresponding corners
16:09:19 <ais523> also the channel topic here is rarely serious
16:09:24 <b_jonas> it's only the windows version that they only provide as 7zip and msi currently
16:09:27 <ais523> I think someone wrote "hypercube" rather than "IRC channel" as a joke
16:09:33 <danil> OK, this is NOT a geometry IRC channel!
16:09:50 <b_jonas> they should provide the standalone windows command-line version as a zip, so you can easily use it without admin privilages
16:09:54 <b_jonas> it's not as bad as I thought
16:09:54 <danil> No one understands IRC jokes.
16:09:56 <ais523> the standard topic is something along the lines of "welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment"
16:10:29 <ais523> but people have a tendency to change it due to messing around and not enough people are inclined to change it back
16:10:41 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:51 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:10:56 <b_jonas> ais523: it seems like 7-zip is careful, they made sure the source code for the unix command-line version is written in C (not C++) and all source files have 8.3 filenames, so I can provide it in quite a few unreasonable formats of old dos compressor programs nobody even remembers anymore
16:11:05 <danil> what's 7zip got to do with build tools. 7zip's a decompressor
16:11:05 <ais523> I don't think we've had this one before and it's actually /more/ precise than the usual topic
16:11:21 <ais523> danil: if the source code you're trying to build is in .7z format
16:12:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I would like to note that xz actually distributes pre-built DOS binaries though
16:12:10 <danil> I never actually looked at 7zips source code
16:12:31 <b_jonas> danil: this channel can drift to off-topic sometimes
16:12:32 <ais523> how much demand is there for DOS binaries of NetHack, btw?
16:12:43 <ais523> our current DOS maintainer has disappeared and I'm wondering if I should try to take over
16:13:11 <ais523> but yes, I stayed away from this channel for months because I disliked how offtopic it had gotten
16:13:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know. I have a custom DOS binary for the joe-editor that I can distribute. It's not perfect, but I used it for text editing a lot.
16:13:18 <ais523> danil: computer game, famous for being old and portable
16:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: it's famous for being portable? I didn't know of that
16:13:45 <ais523> b_jonas: well it runs on a huge number of platforms, especially if you take older versions
16:13:46 <danil> ais523: I dont understand computer games
16:14:04 <ais523> people who have an old computer with an unusual OS and want to play a game on it often send us questions about what version they can run on it
16:14:19 <b_jonas> I thought old programs from back then just (a) had to do that out of necessity, and (b) are automatically portable because everyone implements the few thousand functions those old programs used from the old BSD libc or whatever, including crazy ones like index.
16:14:22 <ais523> danil: they're basically a way to practice skills in a controlled environment, while having fun
16:14:46 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, they often send you (as in the devteam) questions, really?
16:14:48 <ais523> some games train skills like reaction time and coordination, others about more mental skills like planning andp uzzle solving
16:15:02 <b_jonas> if they do, then yes, it is notable for being portable
16:15:17 <danil> I mean, i dont put my head into the games.(And in the cloud)
16:15:19 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, one of our most common sorts of email (that isn't a bug report) is "can you recommend a version of NetHack that I can play on my «insert old computer system here»?"
16:15:41 <danil> Are you a NetHack dev?
16:15:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I guess that could be true, after all, someone wondered about a port to that old nokia personal organizer
16:16:21 <danil> How is that linked with esoteric programming languages?
16:17:06 <b_jonas> danil: porting programs to old systems is an eso-programming topic already, but this channel often drifts off-topic too
16:17:11 <ais523> well, the release of NetHack 3.6.0 only came about as a consequence of the existence of INTERCAL
16:17:14 <ais523> but that's mostly just coincidence
16:17:27 <danil> Yep. This channel gets offtopic all the time
16:18:02 <ais523> and it was a fairly long dependency chain (although still a clear one that's possible to trace)
16:18:03 <danil> the esoteric title changed!
16:18:32 <ais523> those things are fairly easy to change
16:18:41 <danil> Did you change it?
16:18:58 <b_jonas> danil: also, if you look at nethack's source code in detail, you'll see it looks sort of like eso-programming now, even though the practices it uses made sense back when it was developped, and it's a lot of work to rewrite it.
16:19:03 <ais523> it'll probably be changed to something else by tomorrow, though, knowing this channel
16:19:20 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO it'd be great if the game itself were Turing-complete, but I'm fairly sure it isn't
16:19:53 <int-e> fungot: say something?
16:19:53 <fungot> int-e: you look: poorly drawn
16:20:01 <int-e> fungot: thanks so much
16:20:01 <fungot> int-e: a new day dawns...
16:20:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:20:20 <ais523> fungot is a bot written in Befunge
16:20:20 <fungot> ais523: all that means is that if a building? it is the east, and plagiarism is
16:20:42 <ais523> it has a few functions, one of the main ones is trying and failing to say something intelligible in response to people mentioning its name
16:20:44 <danil> fungot: say your source code out loud
16:20:44 <fungot> danil: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle.
16:20:58 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:13 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:21:17 <ais523> danil: fungot doesn't actually know English, so you have to express it in a language fungot does understand
16:21:17 <fungot> ais523: t-rex, i left a party early to go have a bath, and there i don't feel like i look down and notice you're not there
16:21:47 <danil> fungot: What language do you speak?
16:21:47 <fungot> danil: to turn back time and live again with your sweetie! i'm sure one will look for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns.
16:22:11 <danil> Oh, a buisness deal with a bot!?
16:22:16 <ais523> ^ul (Underload! ):*:*:*S
16:22:16 <fungot> Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload!
16:22:27 <ais523> also brainfuck but it's harder to write programs in that quickly
16:22:38 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen brainfuck!
16:22:42 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:22:44 <HackEgo> 105 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>.<++.>-.>+++++++.+++++.<+++++.<+++.>---.>---.>+++++.-. [171]
16:23:17 <ais523> hackego is our main esoteric programming language interpretation bot
16:23:28 <ais523> although people normally use it for messing around rather than for actually running esolang programs
16:23:38 <b_jonas> I wanted to ask some vague questions about esoteric language development, in a rubber duck style.
16:23:39 <danil> How do you use him?
16:23:55 <ais523> to interpret an esolang, you type `! then the language name then the program
16:24:29 <fungot> Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!
16:24:58 <ais523> +- doesn't produce any visible output
16:25:06 <ais523> also you'd need `! brainfuck +-
16:25:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/brainfuck: not found
16:25:17 <ais523> err, need a cell width
16:26:02 <b_jonas> Suppose I have a simple core esoteric language, which doesn't have much IO facilities, plus a standard library, which can have optional parts, for doing IO. The library has an interface that matches the language features, so you could give the same interface as the library functions have if you wrote those functions in that language based implemented from any reasonable other IO facilities, built-in or otherwise.
16:26:25 <b_jonas> Sort of like how C has a core language with not much IO facilities, plus a standard library, only this one is esoteric.
16:26:34 <ais523> `! bf8 +++++[->++++++<]>++[.+]
16:26:34 <HackEgo> â !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
16:26:46 <danil> What was that for?
16:26:55 <ais523> danil: trying to produce useful output with a fairly short program
16:27:03 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
16:27:11 <b_jonas> The core language is rather simple, which I like. Would it ruin the beauty of that simplicity to provide such an IO library?
16:27:30 <ais523> although I don't get why it doesn't start with space
16:27:56 <ais523> it starts with <HackEgo> â !" for me
16:28:07 <ais523> anyway, I have a meeting now, bye everyone
16:28:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting).
16:28:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, there's a space after the header hackego always ouputs to avoid triggering other bots
16:29:35 <danil> Now what programming language fungot uses?
16:29:35 <fungot> danil: and in the book, i tell people that the key to a good diet! she never did in the past. now i'll have that one, the one on a boat can float along for years without crew or sails or a working knowledge, you can never again be able to look in a mirror
16:29:58 <danil> hey, how do i disable f*****
16:30:22 <b_jonas> danil: it's implemented in befunge. you can write macros for it in brainfuck and underload.
16:32:00 <danil> I mean, who made fungoat
16:32:14 <int-e> fungot cannot be disabled, but you can sneak invisible characters in and confuse it.
16:32:40 <int-e> it's fizzie's creation I believe.
16:33:01 <int-e> fungоt <- unicode is also an option
16:33:07 <danil> how many bots are their?
16:33:14 <HackEgo> [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:40 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
16:33:46 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:33:55 <int-e> not all of those are still here
16:34:19 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
16:35:22 <lambdabot> [23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,...
16:35:29 -!- jaboja has joined.
16:35:41 <lambdabot> [24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,...
16:36:04 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
16:36:06 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
16:36:28 <danil> what programming language is THAT!
16:37:17 <danil> ohhhhhh! Why Haskell in esolang?
16:37:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 021520Z 26007KT 9999 -RA FEW080 SCT100 BKN150 17/11 Q1019 NOSIG
16:37:43 <int-e> this, and it relays messages
16:37:56 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:38:31 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR is more useful, I guess
16:38:50 <int-e> you need to provide an ICAO airport code
16:39:22 <danil> BTW, WHAT DID @METAR LOWI DO?
16:39:30 <lambdabot> KPIR 021453Z AUTO 31003KT 10SM CLR 11/08 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP108 T01060078 51012
16:39:54 <danil> WHY IS METAR NEEDED?
16:40:07 <int-e> because everybody likes talking about the weather.
16:40:23 <danil> what does that message do?
16:41:00 <int-e> icao has four letter codes.
16:41:41 <int-e> For most US airpoirts it's K followed by the IATA code, I believe.
16:41:55 <lambdabot> KLAS 021456Z 36015G25KT 330V030 10SM FEW180 20/M06 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP071 T02001061 51028
16:42:22 <danil> what does the above message from lambdabot mean?
16:42:54 <lambdabot> KRAP 021452Z 32005KT 10SM SCT039 BKN046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP132 T00780050 53014
16:43:07 <int-e> it's 20°C, very dry, windy...
16:43:26 <danil> How did you parse it?
16:43:34 <int-e> The 20/M06 part is temperature and dewpoint.
16:43:42 <int-e> anyway, see the METAR wikipedia page
16:44:05 <lambdabot> https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/
16:44:22 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
16:45:25 <danil> quit: reading longggggg wiki page
16:45:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:46:27 <danil> whats the code for Russia?
16:48:11 <lambdabot> UCFM 021530Z 12005MPS 8000 BKN066CB 11/07 Q1011 R26/CLRD70 NOSIG
16:50:43 <danil> tHAT IS A AIRPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:52:12 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
16:53:03 -!- danil has joined.
16:54:04 <lambdabot> UUEE 021530Z 07002MPS 9999 OVC017 04/02 Q1032 R24R/CLRD62 R24L/CLRD62 NOSIG
17:05:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
17:07:30 -!- `^_^v has joined.
17:13:15 -!- Antoxyde has joined.
17:19:30 <fungot> danil: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? i could have this hyper-evolved speaking that could convince anyone to do whatever i want!!
17:19:41 <fungot> danil: hey, i have unfocused, but at the end, to ask me what my favourite suffix.
17:23:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:23:27 <danil> fungot: say something?
17:24:06 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
17:26:30 <lambdabot> KRAP 021552Z 35007KT 10SM FEW046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP133 T00780050
17:30:41 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
17:34:32 -!- danil has joined.
17:35:11 <Vorpal> PDFs from professional organizations that still read "Microsoft Word - whatever.doc" as their title... Why
17:39:08 <fizzie> You want a S in that ul.
17:39:28 <fizzie> There's also a thing where it only answers one person at most three or four times in a row, to stop loops.
17:41:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: how are you? any new panoramas?
17:42:49 <Vorpal> fizzie: I have taken some (using the built in function on the phone) but I have not yet uploaded it anywhere
17:43:56 <danil> whatcha talkin` about
17:44:01 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:45:11 <j-bot> danil: |value error: hi
17:45:56 <j-bot> danil: |value error: help
17:46:22 <Vorpal> fizzie: Apparently the jpeg is 47 MB huh
17:46:44 <danil> What are you talking about?
17:47:02 <j-bot> danil: |syntax error
17:49:43 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
17:49:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mm, probably, but I don't have a list anywhere. I've been mostly defaulting to using the phone's built-in thing as well. I had that home-built panorama head for the previous Sorta-Real Camera, but it doesn't fit the Real Camera.
17:50:26 <Vorpal> fizzie: I went to a nature reserve that was a previous forest fire area (big forest fire) a couple of years ago. Very different nature
17:50:38 <Vorpal> Should upload some pictures somewhere. Dropbox may work
17:50:44 -!- danil has joined.
17:51:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: We went to Scotland again this summer, I'm sure I took some photos there.
17:51:23 <danil> j-bot: 1112234578*11111111
17:51:24 <j-bot> danil: 12358161854196158
17:52:53 <danil> Is'nt this channel offtop
17:53:45 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit).
17:54:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ie7mmypeovlr1n2/AADV2B4P4Kd66X_HXXbDI-T2a?dl=0
17:55:22 -!- danil has joined.
17:56:16 <Vorpal> fizzie: hopefully I shared in the proper way. I think dropbox redesigned the interface or something, doesn't work like I remember it
17:56:54 <danil> I have a little ontop question
17:57:02 <Vorpal> danil: sure, what is it?
17:57:21 <danil> Why are esolangs needed?#
17:57:40 <Vorpal> danil: why is any hobby needed?
17:58:11 <danil> so esolangs are hobbies. I met a dev who used esolangs to get money.
17:58:43 <Vorpal> I think they can be educational as well
17:59:19 <Vorpal> You can learn about computing in the restricted domain of esolangs. Or learn to write a compiler more easily than for a real language.
17:59:37 -!- imode has joined.
18:00:03 <danil> So, his manager gave him Money per line of code. To make a simple program he got a esolang which a) obfuscated his code b) was longer then even java
18:00:32 <fizzie> Sounds to me you don't need a different language for that.
18:00:38 <fizzie> Anyway, by one of the popular definitions, if practical use is the primary intention, it isn't an esolang.
18:00:50 <fizzie> How our wiki puts it is: "An esoteric programming language, or esolang, is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use."
18:00:53 <Vorpal> huh. Well obviously his manager doesn't understand good coding practice. Also that is a shitty way to get paid
18:00:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Whatever you did seems to have worked. Looks nice. Not that different from some parts of Finland.
18:01:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: all the trees are dead. Forest fire.
18:01:23 <danil> Acttually, a Brainf interpreter is easier to make than a BASIC one
18:01:27 <Vorpal> fizzie: it is not that they lost their leaves for the winter
18:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie: the landscape felt kind of spooky. Lots of signs about increased risk of falling trees and such.
18:02:13 <Vorpal> danil: indeed! so good for education to learn the basics of interpreter writing
18:02:26 <Vorpal> optimising brainfuck compiler is quite interesting too
18:02:29 <zzo38> I would prefer to be the payment by a fixed amount, regardless of how large it is or how much time it takes, assuming the program is good.
18:02:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
18:03:28 <danil> Well, what do Water Supply managers now about Coding & computers. A misterious box with weird lamps.
18:04:22 <danil> BTW, it was a anecdote from a guy's forum. Could be true, though
18:04:33 <Vorpal> I prefer the way I work. Paid a fixed monthly salary and having a reasonably secure job (i.e. not just for a single project)
18:04:58 <danil> I also. Only i am a student not a adult.
18:05:38 <zzo38> I think pay one fixed amount per project is better, rather than per month or per hour or whatever
18:06:03 <danil> Both of you are right i n some way
18:06:14 <Vorpal> zzo38: only if you work on a project basis, as supposed to continued development of a large product
18:07:00 <danil> Vorpal: told you this channel goes offtop
18:07:29 <Vorpal> danil: yes I only said: danil> Is'nt this channel offtop <danil> always <Vorpal> not always
18:07:41 <Vorpal> I never disputed "sometimes" or even "often"
18:08:51 <Vorpal> danil: mind you, it isn't as if we are interrupting some on topic stuff that is going on at the same time
18:09:45 <danil> Sorry. I always do that
18:10:10 <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down....
18:10:49 <danil> Na, Buggy Linux + Buggy IRC
18:11:26 <Vorpal> using ubuntu atm. Ubuntu LTS
18:11:30 <Vorpal> on a core 2 duo laptop
18:11:42 <Vorpal> upgraded it with an SSD, but that is it
18:11:47 <danil> Ubuntu 17.04 Acer Aspire V5
18:11:49 -!- jaboja has joined.
18:12:05 <danil> I hate LTS. I'm bleeding edge
18:12:09 <Vorpal> danil: 16.04 LTS, Thinkpad from ~2009
18:12:25 <Vorpal> oh you would hate what I run on my desktop
18:12:47 <Vorpal> also you should totally use arch or gentoo then. Probably arch
18:13:07 <Vorpal> "what" in response to what?
18:13:22 <danil> I use OpenSuSe(12) on my Desktop
18:13:43 <danil> Vorpal: Are you a GPL activist?
18:13:53 <Vorpal> yeah I like debian stable and ubuntu lts. Means it just works except when I upgrade every two or three years.
18:14:10 <Vorpal> no, but I used GPL for my own befunge-98 interpreters
18:14:20 <danil> LTS for me is too stable...
18:14:28 <danil> I like crashing Linux
18:14:39 <Vorpal> actually this LTS has some annoying bugs with the old intel graphics of this laptop
18:15:01 <Vorpal> specifically the on resume from suspend chrome starts flickering black. Firefox is fine
18:15:04 <danil> I'm a Beer Liscence Activist. Like BSD liscense also
18:15:41 <Vorpal> meh, they are just browsers. As long as they can run scriptmonkey and stylish, whatever
18:16:08 <Vorpal> (greasemonkey/tampermonkey, depending on browser)
18:16:52 -!- Remavas has joined.
18:16:54 <danil> Yeah. Suppose your right. I Just installed a new IRC client called Polari. Everything does not work
18:17:08 <Vorpal> danil: I use hexchat. I used xchat before that.
18:17:39 <Vorpal> I don't want to spend all my time making computers work. I rather be productive with them.
18:18:00 <danil> I couldnt configure hexchat. It was confusing. I now just use the Ubuntu Chat app
18:18:30 <danil> Ubuntu Chat just works
18:18:53 <Vorpal> ubuntu chat? what is that?
18:19:30 <Vorpal> well duh, but what is it based on? Pidgin?
18:19:43 <Vorpal> Mind you I run ubuntu and debian with MATE. Not a fan of the default ubuntu unity thing
18:19:59 <Vorpal> thought ubuntu bundled pidgin
18:20:06 <danil> Nah. More quicker and agile. I am using KDE with Unity apps
18:20:50 <danil> Chat is quicker than a pidgeon. Pidgeon's are slow and dangerous
18:20:57 <Vorpal> eh, this hardware couldn't handle that
18:21:23 <Vorpal> I actually run cinamon on my desktop, instead of mate. Switched when upgrading debian most recently
18:21:30 <danil> I just installed kubuntu-desktop through terminal.#
18:21:52 <danil> I am a KDE fanatic.
18:22:03 <Vorpal> danil: the GUI is just a terminal multiplexer for most of what I do.
18:22:13 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil).
18:22:46 <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can
18:23:22 <Vorpal> \oren\_: there are enough GUI programs I use. Image editing, web browser, IDEs. That sort of stuff.
18:23:32 <FreeFull> i3wm with a random assortment of programs
18:24:40 <Vorpal> could probably work just as well as MATE, LXDE or XFCE yes
18:25:01 <Vorpal> Just the inertia of learning a new system, when the keyboard shortcuts are ingrained in your fingers
18:25:02 <\oren\_> for a while i was using two computers. one that didn't run a desktop at all, which i dialed into from the other, which was running puppy linux
18:28:01 -!- danil has joined.
18:28:09 <danil> Everyone calls me a greybeard
18:28:47 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit).
18:29:02 -!- danil has joined.
18:29:10 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit).
18:29:15 <\oren\_> danil: being a greybeard pays well doesn't it
18:43:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:53:00 -!- danil has joined.
18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:54:19 <danil> THE GUI IS A TERMMINAL MULTIPLEXER
18:54:36 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit).
19:08:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:08:48 <Cthulhux> <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can << twm?
19:09:03 <Cthulhux> because everything other than twm uses more resources.
19:09:41 * Cthulhux is still considering between stumpwm and windowmaker
19:10:03 <Cthulhux> those gnome wannabes are too apple'ish
19:10:41 <Cthulhux> also: <danil> Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down.... < write your own one :D
19:10:56 <int-e> have you considered running without a window manager...
19:11:12 <int-e> (no, I'm not really serious, but it does seem to be a valid question ;-) )
19:12:28 <int-e> Cthulhux: you can run X without a window manager
19:12:35 <myname> i should look up if i3wm uses more ressources than herbstluft
19:12:36 <int-e> you'll end up placing everything manually though
19:13:01 <int-e> because, uh, placing and optionally decorating windows is one of the main tasks of window managers.
19:13:03 <Cthulhux> i3wm *does* use more resources than twm.
19:13:52 <int-e> and by "placing manually" I mean passing -geometry options to everything.
19:20:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:23:09 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:33:40 -!- imode has joined.
19:41:25 -!- jaboja has joined.
19:41:31 <zzo38> I currently use i3wm, but may later write my own.
19:45:15 <Cthulhux> i mean, you'll learn a lot, but: don't. :D there are too many WMs already.
19:45:47 <Cthulhux> (i miss the good old times when everyone wrote text editors, not wms..)
19:48:37 <\oren\_> speaking of which I need to finish my text editor
19:50:30 <Cthulhux> i need to finish my xmarks alternative. and my gopher client. and my irc client. and my text editor. and my reddit bot. and my two file managers.
19:51:08 <int-e> I'm pretty sure zzo38 is winning the local vapourware contest.
19:51:44 <Cthulhux> you don't know the list of projects i haven't even STARTED yet!
19:52:05 <int-e> Then again, maybe Feather counts for a dozen ordinary vapourware projects.
19:53:20 <ais523> int-e: it's in an earlier stage than vapourware
19:53:34 <ais523> vapourware normally has the advantage of at least being known to be theoretically possible to write
20:03:19 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:03:38 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:10:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:07 <zzo38> No, I might write a window manager. That way I can learn how it is working, but also just to put the stuff I wanted (I don't need all of the features of i3, and is also missing some thing I wanted), but also just in case I want to do some day, I might or might not I don't know. You can use X without a window manager, which can be useful if you only need one window, I suppose.
20:13:48 <zzo38> What is your xmarks alternative, gopher client, irc client, and others, aredoing what? I wrote a IRC client already and more than one gopher client
20:14:07 <zzo38> (What is xmarks anyways?)
20:15:52 <int-e> *googles* a bookmarks manager with synchronisation facilities?
20:19:32 <zzo38> Anyways I do not use the i3 menu, nor the status bar it comes with; I wrote my own status bar program for use with i3bar, and just use the command shell in xterm if I want to start other programs, so xterm and xrefresh are the only programs I have added keybindings to start them.
20:20:17 <Cthulhux> int-e: yup, but without restriction to one browser
20:20:34 <Cthulhux> synching the built-in browser bookmarks
20:20:42 <Cthulhux> nothing else does that and xmarks sucks
20:21:04 <zzo38> I also added a program to display the process ID and window ID if the title is clicked with the right button.
20:21:39 <zzo38> Cthulhux: Well, the i3 menu and i3status are separate programs from i3wm anyways, and I have not installed those other programs. Mainly it is just the closest thing to what I wanted and is suitable for now.
20:23:37 <zzo38> To use bookmarks outside of the browser though I just wrote a shell script which executes SQL queries to do it, although only with one browser; still, with the same SQL queries I can add them to work with Lynx and so on too rather than only Firefox if I wanted to, easily enough.
20:25:40 <zzo38> Do you think this look good enough to you or don't?
20:26:12 <zzo38> Why do you need two file managers?
20:27:10 <Cthulhux> one as a clone of windows 3.11's good old fileman.exe (it was better than young people think)
20:27:20 <Cthulhux> one as a better tc/mc/far manager/whatever
20:28:10 <zzo38> Do you mean like a orthodox file manager?
20:28:57 <Cthulhux> i mainly use them on windows, but the one of my choice (currently, speedcommander) still lacks some features *for me*
20:29:24 <ais523> I hardly used fileman.exe when I used Windows 3.1
20:29:31 <ais523> pretty much just for creating directories
20:29:39 <Cthulhux> i used fileman a lot on windows 9x
20:29:41 <ais523> nearly always I opened files via File|Open in the program that read them
20:30:01 <Cthulhux> it actually still would be, if win10 would support 16-bit applications
20:30:33 <zzo38> I use Linux and do not use any file manager, since, can just using the command shell
20:30:34 <Cthulhux> something microsoft thought nobody would want anymore
20:30:56 <int-e> hmm wasn't it basically a graphical norton commander
20:30:59 <Cthulhux> i can use "the command shell" on windows too (the powershell is actually rather handy), but i don't want to :D
20:31:57 <Cthulhux> int-e: http://www.mi.uni-koeln.de/c/mirror/www.igd.fhg.de/www/grz/mswin/awfntdev/fileman.gif
20:32:14 <Cthulhux> no bullshit, just file management.
20:32:20 <ais523> zzo38: I normally use a shell on Linux for file management
20:32:29 <Cthulhux> ok, and a WinZip plugin on the screenshot
20:32:31 <ais523> sometimes I use Nautilus, though
20:33:03 <int-e> Cthulhux: oh I see, it had the tree part... yes I miss that as well.
20:33:16 <int-e> . o O ( it's still there in regedit ;-) )
20:33:34 <Cthulhux> i have a half-working version ready
20:34:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:34:17 <Cthulhux> (ha, on-topic! because who still uses delphi, except me?)
20:34:45 <zzo38> I sometimes use QuickBASIC for writing DOS programs
20:35:38 <zzo38> (Including MIXPC, which is mentioned on the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth), because it is an implementation of that instruction set.)
20:36:02 <int-e> why did they discontinue borland pascal for windows anyway?
20:37:27 <zzo38> Is there a free compiler for DOS that will work in real mode?
20:37:30 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:40:53 <zzo38> I put on my computer on the status bar, the number of email messages, the system load, the memory usage, and the current date/time. I did not put temperature because I do not have a driver for it.
20:41:15 <zzo38> Cthulhux: BASIC, although a different programming language might do too
20:41:16 <ais523> zzo38: do you want the compiler itself to run on DOS real mode? or do you want its /output/ to run on DOS real mode?
20:41:53 <zzo38> ais523: The output program. I would want the compiler also to, but if it doesn't, it could be OK as long as the output program does run on real mode.
20:43:23 <int-e> developing programs under DOS, now there's a thing I do not miss a lot
20:43:28 <ais523> zzo38: "bruce's C compiler" runs on Linux and produces 8086 real mode output, and has an option to produce it as a DOS .COM file
20:43:41 <ais523> it probably runs on other OSes too (maybe even DOS itself)
20:43:55 <int-e> (because every second programming error ended up requiring a hard reboot)
20:44:08 <ais523> in terms of compilers that run on DOS real mode themselves, I'm not sure if there are any FLOSS compilers, but shareware compilers were fairly common back then
20:44:25 <ais523> IIRC Borland made a few
20:44:28 <zzo38> Well, DOS starts up much faster than Linux or Windows, so a hard reboot does not take as long
20:45:38 <zzo38> I once installed FreeDOS and a database program on a computer, and when the CRT was turned on at the same time as turning on the computer, the database program is already ready by the time the picture is visible.
20:48:10 <ais523> this computer (running Linux) shuts down really fast, when I reboot the shutdown is faster than the "BIOS" (actually EFI) loading screen (which shows before the bootloader even starts running)
20:48:55 <Cthulhux> a computer running linux that can be shut down?
20:49:17 <ais523> nah, it has systemd, it just somehow seems to actually work in this configuration
20:51:55 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:58:35 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:39 <Cthulhux> tried _working_ operating systems, like virtually any non-linux?
21:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry i didn't realise you were that much of a hipster
21:06:45 <Cthulhux> being called a "hipster" by people using a 2% desktop system
21:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> well if you mean windows or mac os then yeah obviously i've tried those
21:07:34 * Cthulhux uses windows, openbsd and freebsd
21:08:15 <Cthulhux> also, playstations use freebsd as well
21:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because as we all know it's impossible to run linux without systemd
21:08:52 <Cthulhux> poettering shitware is slowly infecting every inch of the gnu/linux fail ecosystem
21:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux
21:09:15 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux << really? ZFS as a root file system? :P
21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> right so explain to me the desktop environment you're using on freebsd that doesn't run on linux
21:09:50 <Cthulhux> zfs *is* a game-changer. (ok, maybe not on a desktop)
21:10:24 <Cthulhux> nothing you do in freebsd will ever require any poettering shitware
21:10:32 <Cthulhux> enjoy the remaining three hipster distros
21:10:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
21:11:08 <Cthulhux> how large is the userbase of non-poettering shitware distros (no udev, no pulseaudio, no shitstemd)?
21:11:48 <Cthulhux> a large part of the web traffic is routed through freebsd (netflix and whatsapp)
21:12:23 <Cthulhux> the main point is still: your fail os fails to shutdown
21:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13 and think os pissing contests are cool
21:13:02 <Cthulhux> your actual point being "hurr durr i COULD use a working os but NOBODY USES BSD"
21:13:23 <Cthulhux> because working computers are sooooo 90s.
21:14:01 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> pfffthahahaha
21:14:02 <Cthulhux> <Phantom_Hoover> which is, lol you're 13
21:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i think poettering's a cunt too but i don't go around embarrassing myself by blabbering about 'shitstemd'
21:14:38 <Cthulhux> yup, you try to bash working software instead
21:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i've only used pulse on this machine to run unity games after they fucked up and made them require pulse
21:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> presumably you couldn't run those games on freebsd at all, idk
21:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> escaping lennart's bullshit would be nice but not worth rebooting to windows every time i wanted to play anything
21:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think the shutdown's even really broken, there's some sort of transient permissioning problem
21:20:21 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: why not just use separate linux and windows computers
21:20:49 <\oren\_> arms not strong enough to carry two laptops?
21:21:38 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: then why not two
21:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> definitely, i barely have room for a tiny desk in this room let alone two towers
21:24:23 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: well he could have a switch that changes which computer the peripherals are connected to, my dad had one back in the day
21:25:47 <\oren\_> it had two outlets for mouse, keyboard and screen, and one input, and a big dial that rotated between 1 and 2
21:26:04 <Cthulhux> that still requires room for a second computer
21:26:49 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: I guess but it doesn't need room for a second desk at least
21:28:05 <\oren\_> actually would such a switch thing even work with complex protocols of USB and hdmi? maybe it would have to have a microprocessor in it
21:28:45 <\oren\_> back in the 90's we used PS/2 and VGA connecters
21:33:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: the search term is "KVM switch", which stands for "keyboard, video, mouse" (in a strange order)
21:34:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: presumably it was just a KV switch originally, then mice became popular so were added onto the end
21:35:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\_: these days instead people connect the keyboard, mouse and video outlets to small computers with microprocessors that give you a remote control ability through the internet for administrative access. remote management console or something. sometimes they also add a relay to power cycle the machine.
21:36:13 <fizzie> I used to use an external HDMI switch when I had a monitor without enough inputs. I don't think it had much of smarts, though.
21:36:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: maybe, but the mouse was already popular 25 years ago for non-game computers, and you don't use a KVM switch for a game console, so I'm not sure if that ever really happened
21:37:11 <wob_jonas> sometimes you get away without a switch by connecting two computers to a monitor through two different types of inputs. with like four different types of video input these days (VGA, DVI, HDMI, displayport), that's often easy by accident.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and having two keyboards (or just using the built-in keyboard of a notebook) is easier than having two monitors
21:38:24 <wob_jonas> but then, these days some people also just use multiple monitors
21:39:18 <fizzie> Many monitors have more than one of a given type of input, at least if you go a bit fancier. This one has 2x HDMI, one DP and one mini-DP.
21:39:24 <wob_jonas> my father, for example, is a sysadmin, so sometimes he works on his own notebook plus two other local computers at the same time to install stuff, in that case he can connect two computers to two monitors and either use only the built-in small display of the notebook or connect using two different types of input
21:39:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: can it actually switch between those two HDMI by some button presses on the monitor?
21:40:12 <wob_jonas> I didn't know that was common on monitors
21:40:15 <fizzie> It's even got two soft keys you can bind to a specific action, including a specific output.
21:40:23 <fizzie> It really made that HDMI switch redundant.
21:40:36 <fizzie> Okay, the switch had 4 HDMI inputs on it, but I don't have that many sources.
21:40:51 <fizzie> This is a Dell U2515H, for reference.
21:41:38 <wob_jonas> yeah, but then all these different connection types get complicated because you often need at least passive converters (the video cards do the actual conversion, the passive converter just connects the wires)
21:42:10 <wob_jonas> why do we have both hdmi and displayport, as separate types?
21:42:44 <fizzie> It does get pretty complicated, especially since all of them have different version numbers.
21:43:00 <wob_jonas> I understand that VGA only does analog video signals, which is why we need DVI, which can do analog or digital, and that DVI doesn't do sound in the same cable as video, which is why we have HDMI
21:43:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, I know the same kind of connector port can carry multiple different signals, so there's DVI with fewer or more ports, depending on whether you want analog or digital, and... something about more than 8 bits of color depth or some such magic? I'm not sure frankly
21:44:31 <fizzie> It's very specific. E.g. you need at least DisplayPort 1.3 to have enough bandwidth for a 3840x2160 resolution.
21:44:59 <fizzie> Or 1.2. Or something, I don't remember anymore.
21:45:14 <fizzie> There's also something you need HDMI 2.0 for, over HDMI 1.4.
21:45:35 <wob_jonas> and while we're there, why do we have both USB3 (two speeds of that, I think) and ESATA for fast communication between a computer and a storage device?
21:45:40 <fizzie> Apparently that's the 4K resolution thing, and the DisplayPort version was something else.
21:46:12 <wob_jonas> ah, so maybe you need a fancier cable for extra-high resolution with high color depth
21:46:28 <fizzie> There's an USB 3.1 as well, and it comes in "gen 1" and "gen 2" varieties.
21:47:20 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, I thought we only had USB 3 and USB 3.1
21:47:22 <fizzie> USB 3.1 gen 2 can do five speeds: low speed, full speed, high speed, superspeed and superspeed+.
21:47:32 <\oren\_> what is the maximum VGA screen size?
21:47:34 <wob_jonas> do USB 3 and USB 3.1 use the same physical connector?
21:47:44 <fizzie> It's just a little funny how "full speed" is like the second-slowest option.
21:48:08 <\oren\_> I guess since it's an analog signal it's limited physically rather than my protocol
21:48:12 <wob_jonas> fizzie: oh, that's like how "double density" is the small capacity floppy disk
21:48:40 <wob_jonas> the one nobody ever uses because high density floppies are supported everywhere and are cheap and have twice as much data
21:48:54 <wob_jonas> you can still read double density in ordinary drives, but you barely find any
21:53:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:54:12 <fizzie> If you wanted video out of a "mobile" device, it gets even more complex. There's that thing called MHL (actually, MHL 1, 2, 3 and superMHL) which sort of has the "semantics" of HDMI, but usually use either MHL-USB (micro-USB-based) or a specific mode of USB Type-C. Competing with the SlimPort/MyDP, which is basically DisplayPort integrated with micro-USB.
21:54:30 <fizzie> It's also very hard to find which devices support what.
21:55:44 <fizzie> At least the U in USB stands for "universal", so there's that.
21:56:09 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:57:51 <wob_jonas> there are lots of different physical connectors, lots of bulit-in hardware level protocols so you can charge stuff or have stuff charged without complicated electronics and bootstrap the digital layer
21:58:21 <wob_jonas> and then there are multiple digital protocols, the USB/USB2 on one set of wires, the USB3 on a second set of wires, bootstrapped by USB2
22:00:01 <wob_jonas> and it's nice that USB3 is fast, but just try to find a motherboard that has two USB3 root hubs built in, meaning that it can do full-speed USB3 conversations on two different ports at the same time, without having to buy a separate USB3 extension card that you plug in to PCI express (of which there are also like six different speeds)
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:05:25 <int-e> Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
22:06:26 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me of the whole thing with with M.2, which has a single connector that in theory can do PCIE 3.0 (x1 to x4), SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0, distinguished by various notches.
22:07:57 <fizzie> I was looking at M.2 SSDs, and the people making them don't really advertise which one of them they do, but the PCIE variants tend to be a lot faster than the SATA ones.
22:09:19 <int-e> however, the two usb3 plugs on the front are on the same USB bus, hrm.
22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host).
22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
22:10:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:10:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:11:20 <fizzie> And "lsusb -t" is really confusing, I think there's some sort of a thing where, if you plug USB 2 and 3 devices into a USB 3 hub, the two kinds of devices end up as separate trees even though physically it's just one tree.
22:11:53 <fizzie> On the other hand, dumping photos out of the phone became a lot faster when I changed monitors.
22:12:11 <fizzie> (There's an USB hub in there, and the new one does 3.0.)
22:15:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: no, those are physically two different trees. basically in an USB3 socket, there's some extra wires for USB3 data. the USB3 device sends data on those only, and uses the USB2 for power and bootstrapping power, if I understand correctly.
22:16:43 <wob_jonas> yes, some monitors have a USB hub built in. and my father has a monitor that didn't, but he permanently taped a small USB hub gadget onto it. instant monitor feature upgrade.
22:18:55 <wob_jonas> the drawback of that monitor is that if you turn off the monitor with the power switch, then suddenly you can't use the keyboard or mouse plugged into your computer through the monitor
22:19:13 <wob_jonas> that's not the one with the instant upgrade, but the monitor with the hub originally built in
22:28:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: ah I see. The board has two USB host controllers besides the one in the X99 chipset... that's how it got 2xUSB 3.0 and 1xUSB 3.1
22:29:14 <wob_jonas> int-e: two USB-3 controllers? because two USB-2 controllers is easy
22:29:47 <wob_jonas> but for USB-3 devices, one USB-3 controller usually gives more bandwidth than three USB-2 controllers
22:30:17 <wob_jonas> fo course, after a while, the rest of the computer can't keep up with the data either
22:30:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: http://sprunge.us/VcBB
22:30:27 <int-e> (this matches the MB documentation)
22:30:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't know which one of EHCI and UHCI and XHCI and whatever mean what, but ok
22:31:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: the xHCI is the USB 3.0 one, the other two in the chipset must be USB 2.0
22:32:30 <int-e> anyway, I had not realized that this is special... nor have I ever exploited this so far.
22:32:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: that says you have one USB3 and two USB2 controllers
22:33:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: no, there's another USB 3.0 host and a USB 3.1 one in addition to that.
22:34:35 <int-e> I meant the VIA and the ASMedia things
22:35:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh. but some of those are probably different software views of the same controller
22:35:43 <wob_jonas> if your motherboard actually had two independent controllers, then you'd see two of the same type
22:36:02 <wob_jonas> your OS probably just creates multiple different devices that view the same underlying hardware in different ways
22:36:08 <int-e> hmm, no it makes sense here.
22:36:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: do you have an extension card plugged in (such as via PCI express) that provides some of those?
22:37:01 <int-e> yes it's odd to have three vendors, but the X99 part of the core chipset, and the two additional ones are different USB versions.
22:37:22 <int-e> no I just bought a fairly expensive gaming motherboard
22:38:01 <wob_jonas> anyway, as for how to exploit that, get two external disk dockers, the ones in which you put a hard disk or solid state disk connected to the docking device with SATA or mini SATA or the other size of mini SATA, and the docking device is connected to your computer by USB 3 and to a power supply by a round power port
22:38:08 -!- Guest12180 has changed nick to moony.
22:38:19 -!- moony has quit (Changing host).
22:38:19 -!- moony has joined.
22:38:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:38:56 <wob_jonas> int-e: is it real gaming, or just labeled as "gaming"? hardware people label the most ridiculous non-gaming equipment as "gaming" for some reason, including motherboards with built-in hardware RAID and keyboards with hard clicky keys for use by programmers
22:39:53 <wob_jonas> they add all sort of search terms so that if you search for either "gaming" in ebay or google or something, you find all their products, even the ones not for gaming
22:40:13 <int-e> https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/X99A-GAMING-7.html
22:40:38 <int-e> I regarded it as a marketing label either way...
22:43:25 <wob_jonas> ah, the Gaming Device Port has "3x more gold than regular connectors" and "10x longer lifetime when plugging/un-plugging"
22:43:40 <wob_jonas> but it's not clear if that refers to the PS2 port or an USB port
22:44:02 <wob_jonas> or maybe all ports are gilded with gold
22:44:10 <int-e> so that's what it means... it refers to 1xPS/2 and 2xUSB 2.0
22:45:07 <int-e> and it's a total waste because those are the least moved plugs
22:45:38 <wob_jonas> not for a gamer who tries a new different type of fancy game controller every month
22:45:56 <int-e> but I can't complain, board has been stable, it has 8 slots and on board sound is decent... those were basically the things I cared about.
22:46:06 <int-e> 8 memory slots even
22:46:19 <int-e> I think all those left out words are a sign, good night.
22:46:22 <wob_jonas> and even when he doesn't buy anything new, he has to switch between the ordinary hand-held controller, Guitar Hero Rock Band controller, and the steering wheel and foot pedals
22:46:56 <wob_jonas> it's a nice motherboard. not the one I'll buy, but nice.
22:48:52 -!- boily has joined.
22:49:17 <HackEgo> 1/2:onion//Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry. \ eventually//Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here. \ lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
22:49:19 <HackEgo> 2/2: \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
22:58:04 -!- LKoen has joined.
23:00:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:08 -!- APic has quit (Quit: Scheduled Downtime. See You later, Gals and/or Pals. ☺).
23:01:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:07:11 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:08:18 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:08:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
23:26:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
23:35:55 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/914734726493102082
23:36:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
23:46:44 <\oren\_> boily: are you excited for reusable rockets that can loft hundred-ton satellites?
23:47:09 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
23:55:55 -!- ACTPic has joined.