00:01:56 I'm tempted to just link you to Fractran again :-P 00:02:52 (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) 00:05:58 right, but fractran isn't quite like what I'm thinking. 00:06:09 it's not that equivalent. 00:07:57 how so? 00:09:20 well, fractran's state is a single number, while a multiset rewriting system's state is, well, a multiset. 00:09:26 it's very different. 00:09:27 abc -> def perfectly translates to 7*11*13/1*3*5 00:09:39 2*3*5 00:09:46 imode: convert it to a prime factorisation 00:09:55 the fact that you can treat that as a single number is mostly just coincidence 00:10:15 actual fractran programming uses the multiset view pretty much all the time 00:10:16 helloily 00:10:20 so you're just choosing primes as the alphabet. 00:10:24 aishello 00:10:28 himode 00:10:28 in fractran. 00:10:29 exactly 00:10:41 alright, I can see that. creative. 00:10:51 leibniz would be proud. 00:12:40 generalized collatz functions are p cool guys. they golf well and dont afraid of any computable n7mber 00:13:15 that however lends itself to larger and larger numbers which is rather inconvenient. 00:13:37 but that's really simple, actually. 00:14:01 ais523: whoa, I didn't know order wasn't required for Fractran 00:14:34 I can see why it doesn't, because prime factorization's order doesn't matter, and that naturally maps to a multiset. 00:14:58 I mean the order of instructions. 00:15:12 shachaf: it's required by the spec, but you can change that part of the spec and it still works 00:15:14 Or whatever those are called. Fractions. 00:15:17 Right. 00:15:21 fractrans. :P 00:16:01 I tend to program fractran and thue the same way, i.e. so that the order of evaluation is irrelevant to the program 00:16:22 fractran is actually probably a more convenient language, thue has bad wire-crossing-like problems 00:16:31 in that trying to get data from one end of the program to the other is a pain 00:16:36 you can do it, just normally need a huge number of cases 00:16:53 Since when do people talk about esolangs in here? 00:17:15 lol. 00:17:43 ais523: yeah that was my initial gripe. because ordering mattered you're essentially constructing a 1D CA with an arbitrary neighborhood. 00:17:50 hard to program in. 00:18:15 shachaf: it's more likely when I'm in here (admittedly, not /much/ more likely, and in this case imode started it) 00:18:20 I like ontopic discussion though 00:18:25 whereas an unordered set (or in this case, an unordered multiset) is more convenient. 00:18:56 it's not hard to take a unary representation of a number and double it for example, but in thue the representation becomes unwieldy. 00:19:53 actually in thue that's pretty easy if you have a marker at each end 00:19:59 just run a cursor along the number 00:20:04 |1 ::= 11| 00:20:21 and get the markers at each end to handle the cursor appropriately (they'll need to do something to fit this into your program's control flow) 00:26:32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis leibniz and godel have something in common, in that they fetishized about primes and their properties for uniqueness. :P 00:26:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:29:42 QUINTHELLOPIA, his523, imellode, mynamello, helloochaf. 00:29:58 boily: is there a bot capable of that in here? 00:30:18 I don't see what benefit a bot woudl have 00:30:29 although hackego is capable of just about anything as long as the output's a function of the input 00:30:54 automation is what keeps bored minds busy. :P 00:31:16 automating porthelloes isn't trivial. 00:34:17 its almost like correctly conjugating present tense verbs and deciding when to use an article on a noun simultaneously 00:35:05 boily has tried to describe his porthello algorithm and it mostly comes out "however sounds good to me" 00:35:19 something like that. 00:36:35 -!- Soni has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:41:29 the algorithm only seems unclear in cases where the original word doesn't have exactly one "o" pronounced as such 00:48:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:04:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:04:56 -!- tellstogo has joined. 01:10:19 -!- tellstogo has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:21:41 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:27:40 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:41:16 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:46:39 and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed <-- no, that's a misunderstanding, i had definitely heard of the fraction version (from the math institute's encyclopedia iirc) - i just had no idea what it was _called_. 01:46:55 oh, I see 01:47:01 so you called it something else 01:47:21 and included a symbolic format 01:50:16 (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) <-- istr we found out that was false at some point. 01:51:05 oerjan: oh right, now you mention it, perhaps I misremembered 01:51:24 in which case I've been spreading misinformation 01:51:34 (very slowly, on and off over the last several years) 01:51:49 the problem being that you can't prove, without some evaluation order restriction, that a particular element /isn't/ contained 01:51:53 in the multiset 01:52:45 whoa, just when I thought I was informed. 01:54:31 this is one of those proofs that you can remember how it works when you're reminded it exists, but be implicitly certain with no evidence that the opposite is true the rest of the time 01:55:01 heh 01:57:04 I guess it's because I think of the problem as being control flow (which is trivially fixed), not detecting zero 01:57:41 i don't remember 100% how the proof went 01:59:35 if a fraction can run at p**0 (* other factors) it can also run at p**n (* the same other factors) for higher n; this means that you can't set a value to 0 without already having a defined maximum value for it 01:59:42 that's not the full proof but it's the basic argument 01:59:47 and everthing else was just details from there 02:01:52 something like, if there's a non-halting computation then it must at some point produce a number divisible by a previous one. 02:02:07 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GUARANTEED CHICKEN). 02:02:40 and then _everything_ divisible by the previous one can avoid halting 02:03:58 oerjan: right 02:05:21 but there's something like a compactness argument hiding in the details, i smell 02:07:04 or perhaps it was linear algebra. 02:12:10 `hello testing 02:12:11 hello, World! 02:12:15 `hi testing 02:12:16 Hi testing. Hesting. 02:12:42 hm i vaguely thought there _was_ a porthello command. btwohily. 02:12:56 `ello testing 02:12:57 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found 02:13:00 hmph 02:13:11 `` cd bin; ls *ll* 02:13:12 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ allquotes \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ llist \ roll \ tell \ wellcome \ willkommen 02:14:05 `` ls -l bin/8* 02:14:06 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8ball 02:14:35 `` ls -l bin/8* | cat -v 02:14:36 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8^Oball 02:14:49 hm right 02:15:02 `` diff bin/8{,-}ball 02:15:03 No output. 02:15:36 why is there a literal control-O in the name of that file? 02:15:49 that's a secret hth 02:16:16 -!- augur has joined. 02:16:51 `mkx bin/8-ball/8ball "$@" 02:16:51 usage: mk[x] file//contents 02:16:58 `mkx bin/8-ball//8ball "$@" 02:17:00 bin/8-ball 02:17:08 `8-ball did this work 02:17:08 It is decidedly so. 02:17:43 (i prefer that way of avoiding duplication because links have been known to break) 02:18:46 `` cd bin; ls *el* 02:18:47 autowelcome \ delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ elcome \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ relcome \ reload \ rwelcome \ tell \ velcome \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welcome \ welcome \ Welcome \ welcöme \ welkom \ wellcome 02:19:01 `` cd bin; ls *el* | grep -v elc 02:19:02 delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ reload \ tell \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welkom \ wellcome 02:19:07 *sigh* 02:19:25 oh well i guess that was about all 02:19:44 `thanks oerjan 02:19:45 Thanks, oerjan. Thoerjan. 02:19:55 `` cd bin; ls *port* 02:19:56 airport \ airport-lookup \ joustreport \ sport 02:20:00 that's probably what you're remembering 02:20:19 no, i recall something doing a more advanced attempt 02:22:34 oerjan: having been pranked, you've joined the ranks of the pranksters? tdh 02:23:20 it's a p good rank 02:43:33 eso idea: int : float :: interface : floaterface, now we just need to work out what a floaterface is 02:43:35 huh. so multiset rewriting is essentially just doing register machine operations.. 02:45:35 I guess a floaterface is mostly a generalization of an interface (can represent any interface as long as it's not too large), but also can represent partial interfaces, and becomes approximate in some cases? 02:47:23 I'm not sure how to related interfaces to integers 02:47:40 relate 02:47:56 I don't think interfaces are usually totally ordered 02:48:02 That could be interesting in itself 02:50:27 I just watched a youtube video without adblock on. There are "buy now" advertisements directly beneath the video now 02:55:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:56:42 . o O ( interface Foo extends NaN ) 02:56:46 `? italian 02:56:47 italian? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:56:51 hm 02:59:42 `? welcome.it 02:59:43 welcome.it? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:01:53 doesthiswork: that's just one kind of ad youtube uses. afair it only does that when there isn't a full video ad. 03:02:14 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: /me slaps sleep around a bit with a large bed). 03:02:58 that i've noticed. 03:07:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:07:53 Taneb: please write welcome.it twh 03:14:52 -!- sleffy has joined. 03:16:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:43:18 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:46:22 -!- MrBusiness has joined. 03:53:51 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:56:20 -!- tromp has joined. 04:01:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:15:53 -!- MDude has joined. 04:24:51 -!- sleffy has joined. 04:28:01 -!- Soni has joined. 04:57:26 -!- tromp has joined. 05:02:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:22:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:23:44 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:39:09 -!- augur has joined. 05:41:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:42:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:47:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:52:59 -!- augur has joined. 05:55:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:55:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:58:12 -!- tromp has joined. 06:02:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:11:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:16:06 -!- augur has joined. 06:22:59 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:25:19 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:27:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:27:29 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 06:35:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:39:44 -!- augur has joined. 06:44:06 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 06:44:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:55:53 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:11:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:17:19 -!- tromp has joined. 07:21:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:15:07 -!- augur has joined. 08:39:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:43:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:44 -!- augur has joined. 08:48:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:50:32 -!- augur has joined. 08:51:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:54:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:59:09 -!- tromp has joined. 09:11:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:38:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:42:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:47:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:48:18 -!- augur has joined. 09:50:18 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:52:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:56:43 `? welcome 09:56:45 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 10:22:58 -!- tromp has joined. 10:27:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:31:07 -!- augur has joined. 10:35:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:45:21 -!- tromp has joined. 11:34:45 -!- boily has joined. 11:42:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:44:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:58:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:59:44 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 12:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 12:25:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GLACIAL CHICKEN). 13:02:12 -!- tromp has joined. 13:19:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:03:02 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:07:35 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:25:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:38:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:39:35 -!- tromp has joined. 14:53:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:04:57 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:45:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:50:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:52:08 -!- tromp has joined. 16:31:49 -!- augur has joined. 16:37:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:38:25 -!- augur has joined. 16:46:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:46:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:51:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:10:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:20:33 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:25:25 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 17:35:48 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:36:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:13:39 -!- tromp has joined. 18:32:25 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:40:35 -!- imode has joined. 19:01:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:03:55 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:11:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:19:31 -!- augur has joined. 19:23:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:30:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:36:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:38:11 -!- imode has joined. 19:41:04 -!- augur has joined. 19:43:42 -!- tromp has joined. 19:55:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:13 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:02:23 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:02:36 -!- Slereah has changed nick to Guest95245. 20:17:44 -!- GeekDude has joined. 20:21:49 -!- augur has joined. 20:23:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:24:04 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:25:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:29:56 -!- augur has joined. 20:33:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:14 -!- augur has joined. 20:42:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:43:49 -!- erkin has joined. 20:49:37 -!- augur has joined. 21:06:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:39 -!- augur has joined. 21:22:58 <^v> welp 21:23:04 <^v> i've mastered SKI calc 21:23:30 <^v> it's time to transcend existence into the esoteric realm 21:24:00 huh? is ski conscidered hard in any way? 21:29:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:20 <^v> myname, succ = S(K(S(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(S(S(K(S))(S(K(S(K(S))))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K)))))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(K(K(S(K)(K))))) 21:29:28 <^v> all this does is take a church number and add 1 21:30:14 so? 21:30:28 <^v> its complicated af 21:30:57 i mean, yeah, i couldn't write it out freely, but conversion from and to lambda calculus is pretty easy 21:31:24 <^v> yeah i'm making my language convert lambda calc to SKI 21:33:44 <^v> if the existing output wasnt already horrendous 21:36:44 -!- Slereah__ has joined. 21:37:27 -!- Guest95245 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:02:40 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:11:45 -!- augur has joined. 22:16:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:36:04 -!- brandonson has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:36:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:37:49 -!- augur has joined. 22:43:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:50:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:51:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:54:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:55:28 -!- augur has joined. 22:56:21 -!- boily has joined. 22:57:55 -!- tromp has joined. 23:09:30 that seems overly complicated, hmm 23:10:54 -!- Guest95245 has joined. 23:12:32 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:13:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:29 -!- augur has joined. 23:23:41 ^v: how about S (S (K S) K) 23:24:28 (which is much smaller than I expected, yay) 23:24:36 Converting lambda to SKI is trivial, though the hard part is finding an expression that's short 23:35:48 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:36:17 -!- joast has joined. 23:36:44 -!- joast has quit (Client Quit). 23:39:17 -!- joast has joined. 23:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:05 -!- augur has joined. 23:55:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).