←2017-10-31 2017-11-01 2017-11-02→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:04:20 <quintopia> do you like hellaweenie
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00:36:44 <zzo38> I found the source codes of a QBASIC program which I had used before to transfer files from one computer to another over the RS-232 port; the computers used different disks, so I was unable to use a disk to transfer the files.
00:37:18 <zzo38> Here is the code in case it interests you: http://sprunge.us/RJdY
00:38:19 <zzo38> (I think this program is a bit unusual in using PRINT instead of PUT to write the output, but, this still worked.)
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00:53:40 <boily> quintopia: it has food!
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00:59:33 <zzo38> I found out how the DRAWX .VEC format is working: It is a headerless file with a number of five byte records, which consist of a command code (a single ASCII character) and then two small-endian 16-bit numbers, being X and Y coordinates scaled into the range 0 to 1000 (where (0,0) is the top-left corner). Commands are 'P' to set a point, 'L' to draw a line, and 'X' for end of file.
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01:32:45 <zzo38> Do you know what this notation means? [w=w p9(+100b)] [d=w+m p6] [wi=sq+c p15] [li=sp15] [r=bad] [f=c12 p7] [w1=w+a p0(+50b)] [w2=w p14(+15b)] [f2=t p7] [r2=baht]
01:34:31 <zzo38> (I found it in a file titled "TONYROOM", which seems to be a room layout, together with the cost)
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05:26:50 <zzo38> There is two program for displaying farbfeld pictures, lel and ff-xwin. But, lel is a larger program, has some things that I should should be better to put in other program, and does not even deal with the colours of the display properly like X clients should do.
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10:13:30 <shiro`> hi..
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17:02:02 <Hooloovo0> https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/31/disliked-programming-languages/?cb=1
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17:13:59 <quintopia> it seems like most of the languages are all clustered together on the left in "not-too-disliked" territory, but ruby, coffeescript, objective-c, and php are significantly more disliked (let's say "moderately disliked") while perl, delphi, and vba are way out to the right in "heavily disliked" territory
17:14:31 <quintopia> which i find surprising. i can understand the perl hate, but i would not have predicted delphi being further right than php
17:15:21 <Hooloovo0> yeah, really confused about PHP not being right near the bottom
17:42:47 <quintopia> sup
18:03:04 <Hooloovo0> nothing much, school stuff mostly
18:17:25 <Slereah_> lol VBA
18:17:29 <Slereah_> i had to work in VBA once
18:17:34 <Slereah_> It was not much fun
18:18:04 <Slereah_> Javascript isn't as high on the list as I thought
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19:33:57 <quintopia> `l//rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l//rn: No such file or directory
19:34:27 <quintopia> `l/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:34:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l/rn: No such file or directory
19:34:51 <quintopia> one day i'll remember commands names
19:35:43 <fizzie> `` ls le/*
19:35:44 <HackEgo> le/rm \ le/rn \ le/rn_append
19:36:14 <fizzie> Hmm.
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19:36:17 <fizzie> `cat le/rm
19:36:18 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ rm-p "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
19:36:25 <fizzie> I guess that makes some sort of sense.
19:36:39 <fizzie> It's slightly annoying the way those aren't in /hackenv/bin, but, you know, slashes.
19:37:32 <quintopia> `le/rn fun fact // fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'fun fact ': fun fact (n.) information that I expect you don't care about at all but which I will tell you anyway
19:37:54 <fizzie> I was just going to unrecommend the spaces.
19:38:02 <quintopia> yeah
19:38:31 <quintopia> now whats the edit command
19:38:49 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's|^ ||' < 'wisdom/fun fact ' > 'wisdom/fun fact'; rm 'wisdom/fun fact '
19:38:51 <HackEgo> No output.
19:39:01 <fizzie> I've always found it easier to just edit the files instead of trying to remember the commands.
19:39:16 <quintopia> yeah, but i know there is one
19:39:27 <fizzie> There's one for editing contents, I don't think it's generic enough to also edit the file name.
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19:39:45 <quintopia> slwd or sth
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19:40:18 <fizzie> That sounds likely.
19:40:23 <fizzie> `head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:24 <HackEgo> head: cannot open ‘bin/sled bin/slwd’ for reading: No such file or directory
19:40:26 <fizzie> `` head bin/sled bin/slwd
19:40:27 <HackEgo> ​==> bin/sled <== \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ; \ \ ==> bin/slwd <== \ cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
19:41:02 <fizzie> Yeah, sled for the generic thing and slwd for the wisdom-specific one.
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21:21:17 <wob_jonas> What the heck? So "central heating" in English refers to a different and much broader concept than in Hungarian? What's WRONG with the English language?
21:22:05 <ais523> what does it mean in Hungarian?
21:22:12 <wob_jonas> Apparently in English, "central heating" means any form of heating the interior of a building that doesn't have separate heat generators per room.
21:22:18 <ais523> in English it refers to a system in which there's a house-wide system for heating, as opposed to having a separate heater in each room
21:22:57 <ais523> this is almost always accomplished via the use of a centralised hot water boiler + radiators that radiate the heat from the water into the room
21:23:20 <wob_jonas> In Hungarian, "központi fűtés" only refers to a subset, namely heating buildings where multiple houses are heated by a hot water generator as a communal city infrastructure service.
21:23:45 <ais523> oh, I don't think we even need a word for that in English, it's very rarely used here
21:24:07 <ais523> I'd argue that translating that into "central heating" is misleading
21:24:45 <wob_jonas> Which is cheaper in theory than other forms of heating (definitely cheaper if you live near a power plant), and has less maintenance problems, but also offers less control for the individual apartment owners, because they still have to pay when they don't want to heat their apartment.
21:25:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: even in big cities, or in cities near big power plants?
21:26:10 <ais523> I live in the biggest city in the UK (second-biggest if you consider the whole of London a city; for weird historical reasons only a very small proportion is)
21:26:14 <ais523> we don't have anything like that here
21:27:05 <wob_jonas> ok
21:28:53 <ais523> it makes sense, I guess it's just that people in the UK don't like living near power plants, and many of our power plants aren't suitable for combined-heat-and-power anyway
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21:29:36 <wob_jonas> So it's not just one of the places where communal heating is impractical because houses are spread too far apart, or because the climate is so warm that people rarely need heating even in the winter, or because oil is so cheap that people leave the engine of old fuel-hog buses on all night because the engine has a bit of trouble starting up.
21:30:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: the power plant is the rare case, most people in Budapest don't get heating from them, but the one special case of Paks where everyone has their house heated to too hot and aren't allowed to set the radiators to cooler because the power plant needs cooling should count.
21:31:32 <ais523> in the UK it's usual to see steam towers when factories or power plants need cooling
21:31:47 <ais523> high chimneys which let hot steam into the atmosphere, it cools quickly because it's a gas
21:31:50 <ais523> and we have plenty of water here
21:32:43 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: The Finnish literal translation of "central heating" (keskuslämmitys) means what the Hungarian term means, and it's also almost ubiquitous in cities.
21:32:45 <wob_jonas> Well sure, it's not an accident that the biggest power plant of the country, in Paks, is next to the Danube.
21:33:43 <wob_jonas> Luckily I've never lived in a place that has communal heating.
21:33:57 <ais523> I think building a CHP system in the UK would be unlikely nowadays because new power plants are normally nuclear (and people are unwilling to want cooling water from a nuclear power station in their radiators), or wind/tidal (which can't be used for CHP)
21:34:35 <wob_jonas> The two apartments where I lived with my parents were really cold, and both had a one per apartment water boiler standing radiator (no floor heating) central heating.
21:35:18 <wob_jonas> The apartment where I live now is much warmer even if I don't turn any heating on, because unlike the previous ones, it's heated by the apartment under and the others around it, and also has better insulation.
21:35:50 <fizzie> ais523: wob_jonas: Actually, sorry -- misremembered. In fact "keskuslämmitys" means something closer to central heating, and "kaukolämpö" (lit. "far heat") means the other one.
21:36:14 <fizzie> Also I thought "district heating" was the English word?
21:36:20 <wob_jonas> I haven't had to turn on heating yet, I'll turn it on the first time I feel cold any early morning in the bed under the thick down (feather) duvet with all windows closed.
21:36:33 <fizzie> "District heating (also known as heat networks or teleheating) is a system for distributing heat generated in a centralized location for residential and commercial heating requirements such as space heating and water heating. The heat is often obtained from a cogeneration plant burning fossil fuels but increasingly also biomass, although heat-only boiler stations, geothermal heating, heat pumps and
21:36:39 <fizzie> central solar heating are also used, as well as nuclear power."
21:36:40 <ais523> fizzie: possibly; it's rare enough that I don't know what the word is
21:36:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I don't know the English words for all this.
21:37:12 <fizzie> I believe there's some of this in London.
21:37:12 <wob_jonas> Yes, that's correct, it also provides water heating as a side effect.
21:37:19 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating#United_Kingdom
21:38:03 <wob_jonas> Oh, and this apartment has two per-room enclosed burning space municipal gas heaters as the main heating source.
21:38:47 <fizzie> And, yeah, it's pretty popular where I came from: "In Finland district heating accounts for about 50% of the total heating market, 80% of which is produced by combined heat and power plants. Over 90% of apartment blocks, more than half of all terraced houses, and the bulk of public buildings and business premises are connected to a district heating network."
21:38:56 <ais523> I think the majority of houses over here use a gas boiler for heating
21:39:17 <fizzie> ais523: That's my impression as well, from coworker talk.
21:39:35 <ais523> electric heaters are common if you only want to heat one room, or want heat only rarely
21:39:43 <fizzie> This apartment is all-electric, which I think is considered a little uncommon.
21:40:12 <ais523> yes, not unheard of but rare
21:40:13 <fizzie> Feels like it costs a lot, though the only point of reference I have is our apartment in Finland.
21:40:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: gas boiler still accounts for multiple heating systems. it can be per apartment, or a central one for a small building with the water boiler in a scary damp cellar to scare children with, or district heating; and it can use ordinary wall-mounted radiators or floor heating pipes.
21:40:52 <ais523> gas is much more efficient at heating than electricity is; many power plants are gas-fired anyway, and burning the gas in your home means you get all the energy from the gas as heat, as opposed to using electricity where much of the energy was lost at the power plant
21:41:08 <ais523> (the exception is if the electricity comes from a renewable source but the UK is nowhere near 100% renewable yet)
21:41:35 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, the details can vary a lot
21:41:51 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I hear all electric is common in Sweden because they have cheaper electricity, and small towns with too thin and cold soil so it's difficult to maintain pipes for municipal gas.
21:42:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: renewable source doesn't imply that it's efficient, but sure
21:42:24 <ais523> the heating system in this house was changed a couple of years ago to use a different sort of centralised boiler, the old one was much larger than the current standard and built into the walls
21:42:41 <wob_jonas> in general gas heating is more efficient, but there are all sorts of details that can make it hard to use
21:42:42 <ais523> the old one used a chimney, the new one just has a vent through the nearest wall (but is self-contained)
21:43:01 <fizzie> There's also an electric "immersion heater" in here, which runs once a day to heat up a bunch of water. It feels really odd to have all this infrastructure invidiually per-apartment, in an apartment building. Back in Finland it was all invisible, somewhere in the building basement.
21:43:47 <ais523> we used to have an immersion heater which we never used, that was changed in the refit though
21:43:56 <wob_jonas> also if you have gas heating, there's the overly bureaucratic chimney maintenance service which is supposed to be taking care of people's safety, especially against carbon monoxide poisoning, but actually just keep inventing frequently changing random rules to screw with people.
21:44:01 <fizzie> Oh, and an electric shower. I don't think I've ever seen one in Finland.
21:44:21 <ais523> it's very common to have a batch water heating system here, with a hot water tank that's re-heated once or twice a day
21:44:26 <wob_jonas> The rules change more frequently than the normal lifetime of any sort of heating appliance.
21:44:28 <ais523> normally you have controls to set the exact schedule
21:44:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: in the UK it's strongly recommended that you fit a carbon monoxide alarm but there are no rules actually requiring it
21:44:50 <wob_jonas> You don't have any of that trouble with district heating in Budapest
21:44:55 <ais523> that I'm aware of, at least
21:45:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but that's not enough
21:45:21 <fizzie> (An "electric shower" is a thing that's connected to a cold water supply, and it heats water up on-demand as it's used.)
21:46:02 <ais523> fizzie: right, those are very common in the UK, even in houses which otherwise use gas heating
21:46:13 <ais523> although mixer showers that work by mixing hot and cold water are also common
21:46:29 <ais523> the problem with using the regular hot water supply for a shower is that it has a tendency to run out when you're using a batch water heater
21:46:33 <ais523> so not everyone in the house can have a hot shower
21:46:49 <alercah> mix taps are completely standard here
21:46:55 <alercah> usually with only one control
21:46:58 <wob_jonas> Even for this apartment they manage to keep complaining about something, not about the room heating because the enclosed space heaters are simple and can't cause any trouble, but about the small boiler for hot water generation.
21:47:26 <fizzie> Ours is a very basic model, so you only have three heating settings (cold, one heater, two heaters) and you do the temperature control by adjusting the water flow. Makes for a really sad excuse of a shower, but at least it never runs out.
21:47:43 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ouch
21:48:08 <wob_jonas> right, I hear the UK has this strange system where they often haven't invented a simple water mixer that we have in almost every tap here, except for a few cold water only taps
21:48:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: those were illegal for a long time, IIRC there was some sort of issue with contamination of the mains
21:49:28 <ais523> there's such a thing as a "kitchen mixer tap" which mixes hot and cold water but only after it's already come out of the tap
21:49:33 <wob_jonas> even restaurant taps that are set to hot water only with no way for the user to adjust, to make people buy more drinks, are mix taps, only with a screw from the mix tap removed by the owner so that the users can't grip it
21:49:33 <ais523> by dropping them near each other
21:49:37 <ais523> in order to avoid that sort of problem
21:49:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: huh, how does that work?
21:50:03 <ais523> as in, why would hotter water make you buy more drinks?
21:50:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that's strange. I've seen such two tap systems even in Hungary, but only like twenty years ago in old dorm buildings inside rooms or something, not in reasonable places
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: the guests use the warm water to wash your hand in the bathroom, but don't drink it because it's too warm for their tastes (when people drink water, they usually prefer cold or room temperature water)
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21:51:29 <wob_jonas> so they instead buy drinks from the restaurant or pub in glasses or bottles or whatever
21:51:32 <ais523> oh, I see, I didn't realise anyone would drink water from the bathroom taps
21:51:48 <ais523> in the UK, anywhere which sells alcohol has to give everyone (cold/mains) tap water for free on request
21:52:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, they have that strange thing in the UK too? I hear the US has an issue where people don't want to drink from taps, and have separate water fountains or something
21:52:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, in theory restaurants have to serve tap water in a glass
21:52:34 <ais523> it's just really inconvenient to drink from a tap directly
21:52:42 <ais523> and people aren't really supposed to bring their own glasses
21:52:43 <wob_jonas> but sometimes they don't do that, or interpret your order of water as non-tap water and charge from it, or something
21:52:54 <ais523> right, you have to be very clear to say "tap water"
21:53:15 <ais523> if you just say "water" a typical restaurant will serve you something much more expensive in the hope of making a profit
21:53:17 <wob_jonas> and even without that, once they have to order, they might order other drinks
21:53:48 <wob_jonas> also, this happens the most often in restaurants that already want to gain profit from tourists or clueless people
21:55:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: most people drink using their two hands, but they also wash their face at sinks with taps with their two hands, which is something I could never really figure out. I'm in the minority who drink by directly holding my mouth under a tap, and wash my face by holding my face under the tap, or sometimes drink using a soft drink bottle.
21:55:51 <ais523> that's a weird tap design, it's hard to fit your face under the tap with a typical sink
21:56:01 <wob_jonas> I am also willing to drink warmer water in those kinds of skiing restaurants than most other people, I only refuse to drink when the water is so hot it already hurts for washing your hands.
21:56:02 <ais523> in fact, some sinks I've had problems even just fitting my hands there :-(
21:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, some taps make it hard. that's what coke bottles are for.
21:57:29 <wob_jonas> ideally either modern thin mineral water bottles that you can fold if they don't fit under, or a half-liter mineral water bottle that fits slanted under most taps (in most places the faucet is also not fixed too strongly to the sink so I rotate it a bit even though I'm not supposed to).
22:00:50 <wob_jonas> Drinking from a bottle can be unhygienic, yet I still do it a lot.
22:01:01 <wob_jonas> I'm not supposed to, but it's simple.
22:03:44 <wob_jonas> Anyway, I don't understand how people even take showers without a mixing tap. Washing up is possible without, using the more water efficient technique of filling a sink with water, which people here always do when there's a lot to wash up at the same time.
22:04:16 <ais523> it's common to do that here too, except for rinsing
22:04:25 <ais523> you have a bowl of hot water for washing, then rinse under the tap once you're done
22:04:46 <wob_jonas> Sure, I've heard of all the inconvenient cleaning methods people used up to like twenty years ago, before basically every apartment started to have a bathroom with shower or bathtub as a standard component, but still.
22:05:46 <wob_jonas> Nobody but very poor people lack a shower of some form or bathtub these days.
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22:07:31 <wob_jonas> And all showers have a mixing tap, because the bathrooms already have to have hot water, and throwing in a mixing tap is simple enough on that, simpler than having a separate hot water and cold water tap.
22:09:31 <wob_jonas> (There's one difference. Showers in individual home bathrooms typically have a shower head on a flexible tube; communal showers usually have a shower head in a fixed high position on a rigid tube instead. This is because the flexible tube often gets leaky and has to be replaced once every few years, but is cheap to replace.)
22:11:25 <wob_jonas> My other grandmother, who died over twenty years ago, actually lived in a poor house without a shower or bathtub, so she had to wash her body from a bowl, but even there she had a mix tap with hot and cold water.
22:13:31 <wob_jonas> People don't use a mix tap for washing themselves only when either (a) they're in such poor housing conditions that not only they don't have a bathroom, but also no access to proper hot water, and have to boil water in a pot on a stove for washing themselves; or (b) it's a shower outdoors on a beach or similar with only cold water, used only in war
22:13:31 <wob_jonas> m temperatures.
22:15:41 <wob_jonas> The no mix tap thing seems a strange foreign practice to me, sort of like squat toilets.
22:17:07 <wob_jonas> I can admit that having taps with the controls placed in reverse can be a genuine cultural difference that's too stuck to reconcile after international travel got cheaper, sort of like driving on the left; and the same about upside down light switches, and ceiling light switches placed at waist height.
22:18:44 <wob_jonas> (Here most taps that have two separate dials for cold and hot water have the hot water dial on the left hand side, ones that have a single handle give hot water if you pull that to the left; you press pysical light switches on the top or pull them up to turn them on; and room light switches are at height.)
22:19:21 <wob_jonas> (These are arbitrary conventions, but they're useful at that if they're standard.)
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22:22:23 <shachaf> Do you use electric showers in the UK?
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22:24:30 <ais523> shachaf: both electric and mixer showers are common
22:25:33 <wob_jonas> Do people at the UK at least have a tall enough tap in either the kitchen or the bathroom that you can fit your head below them? I hate not tall enough taps. How the heck are you supposed to remove foreign objects from your eyes? Everyone knows you must do that with running water whenever possible.
22:25:42 <wob_jonas> I mean just a cold water tap.
22:25:47 <wob_jonas> You don't need a mixing tap for that.
22:25:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: normally you physically throw water into your eyes
22:26:10 <ais523> sometimes described as "splashing" it
22:26:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but that doesn't really work. that's a workaround for when you don't have running water because you're not in a building.
22:27:09 <shachaf> I've never seen an electric shower but I heard they were common in the UK.
22:27:18 <wob_jonas> strange
22:27:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, if they have a shower, they can use that instead
22:27:31 <wob_jonas> or a bathroom tap
22:27:39 <wob_jonas> not perfect, but works
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22:30:20 <shachaf> Wwhy is it not perfect?
22:30:32 <wob_jonas> Really I've heard of the no mix tap thing in UK from descriptions, but I mostly forgot about it until now. I should really keep that in mind when I decide whether to work abroad and where.
22:31:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: maybe about half the public toilets I use have mixer taps on the sinks, the other half use separate taps
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: shower works well, but some showerheads are ridiclous, they spew water everywhere in a large area rather than concentrating them in a medium sized beam, so you'd get everything wet. For washing your eyes, you want the water to hit mostly a small area at the bridge of your nose. Tap at bathtub can work but can be harder to reach from outsid
22:31:58 <wob_jonas> e the bathtub.
22:32:10 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, I thought you meant electric showers.
22:32:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: why does electric matter? cold water works for washing your eyes (warm water also works, mind yuo)
22:33:04 <ais523> shachaf: electric and mixer showers still have the showerhead (the bit that actually outputs the water) working the same way, the only difference is how the water is heated
22:33:08 <Taneb> Superheated water might have adverse side effects
22:33:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. how about in private apartments?
22:33:21 <shachaf> I was only half-reading the conversation, I didn't see anything about showerheads.
22:33:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: they're separate in my house, I don't go to a lot of other peoples' bathrooms though
22:33:43 <wob_jonas> yeah...
22:33:43 <Taneb> wob_jonas, most toilets I use have mixer taps, most kitchens don't
22:34:19 <wob_jonas> I don't know what kind of bathrooms people have in private apartments in Sweden either. I've only been to like four apartments, but all four are ones where Hungarians live.
22:34:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: thanks
22:34:43 <Taneb> I've never been to Sweden or to my knowlege in a Hungarian's apartment
22:38:44 <wob_jonas> Totally different topic. I was thinking of trying to watch some other cartoon TV series franchise (besides MLP:FiM which I've been following for three seasons now). Top contender is Steven Universe, followed by Ben 10. Do you have any recommendation for or against them?
22:38:51 <wob_jonas> This one is hard because you'd have to know my preferences.
22:45:04 <wob_jonas> I also watched much of Phineas and Ferb and enjoyed it, plus most of the original Powerpuff Girls series.
22:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're after kids'-tv-that-adults-like then adventure time seems to be widely loved
22:53:01 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: hmm
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23:01:23 <wob_jonas> yeah... this channel is half European, so I should ask at a time that's not a bank holiday, and earlier in the day
23:01:35 <wob_jonas> is it a bank holiday in the US by the way? let me look that up
23:02:14 <shachaf> I don't think there are bank holidays in the US.
23:02:33 <wob_jonas> yep, holiday in US and UK too (but not in Sweden or Norway)
23:02:45 <shachaf> whoa, today's a holiday in the US?
23:03:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: today as in --11-01. it's --11-02 now here
23:04:19 <shachaf> What holiday?
23:04:34 <wob_jonas> nope, sorry, not a public (bank) holiday in the US apparently
23:04:52 <shachaf> Anyway the US doesn't really have official holidays.
23:04:58 <wob_jonas> nor in the UK
23:05:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: how do people know when shops and offices are closed then?
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> such shops and offices that are normally closed on sundays that is
23:07:59 <wob_jonas> but it is a holiday in Hungary and some of the neighboring countries
23:08:44 <shachaf> There are conventions.
23:09:01 <shachaf> The federal government has a holiday schedule and I guess most people use those.
23:09:20 <shachaf> And maybe add some others or remove some.
23:09:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: doesn't that make them public holidays?
23:13:26 <shachaf> Does it?
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23:13:56 <wob_jonas> dunno
23:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> when does us daylight savings time end btw
23:15:00 <shachaf> This Sunday.
23:15:37 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: 2017-11-05 in most places
23:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i see
23:15:48 <wob_jonas> a few don't use daylight saving time adjustments
23:16:38 <shachaf> That's true.
23:16:43 <shachaf> I wish everyone got rid of DST.
23:16:48 <wob_jonas> and apparently they don't adjust their tz offset at the same time, but at the same local time around the country. weird.
23:16:55 <shachaf> Maybe I should move to Arizona.
23:17:50 <wob_jonas> in the half of Europe that does do DST adjustments, they do it at the same time
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23:19:17 <wob_jonas> always at 01:00 UTC, regardless of whether their winter timezone offset is +0 or +1 or +2
23:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the codebase i'm working on right now mixes local and utc times in ways i don't really understand
23:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's less than ideal
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23:22:17 <wob_jonas> I was thinking at some point on what the best API would be for a datetime module that covers timezones and the gregorian calendar and all sorts of datetime calculations. Obviously this is subjective. I have a particular idea that I might try to implement as a wrapper some day. I quite like the perl Date::Manip module, but I'm thinking of an API mor
23:22:17 <wob_jonas> e suitable for a statically typed language,
23:22:40 <wob_jonas> and without the part where Date::Manip refuses to handle sub-second precision.
23:23:40 <wob_jonas> Maybe at first I should sketch the API as a patch to Date::Manip that adds more methods and depreciates a few existing ones in favor of the newer ones.
23:23:56 <wob_jonas> Because that interface is nice, but not perfect.
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Nah, that probably wouldn't work. I'd have to change it to almost unrecognizable.
23:25:21 <wob_jonas> Dunno.
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23:25:34 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: go on
23:25:59 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: is that code base written in Excel? Excel doesn't seem to understand about time zones.
23:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> no it's in kdb
23:26:16 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you use kdb?
23:26:18 <shachaf> For what?
23:26:20 <wob_jonas> At least in older versions. They may have added stuff since.
23:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> which has different shortcuts for utc timestamp vs global timestamp
23:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, market databases, what else :p
23:26:42 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that surprised me too
23:26:54 <shachaf> Is this for a job?
23:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
23:27:09 <shachaf> What's the job?
23:27:10 <wob_jonas> apparently people use some modern APLs in finance, including kdb and dyalog.
23:27:41 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, uh... kdb developer, basically
23:27:46 <wob_jonas> but it surprised me because I don't remember seeing Phantom_Hoover on the freenode #jsoftware channel where we talk about various APLs, not just the original topic J
23:27:58 <shachaf> I mean, what are you and/or your employer accomplishing?
23:28:50 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: you are hereby invited to #jsoftware, where you can find a few other people who use APLs for work
23:28:58 <wob_jonas> I emphatically don't do that, and don't want to do that either
23:29:22 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: hm, do you work for Kx or for some other company?
23:29:28 <FireFly> out of curiosity
23:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i work for one of the irish kdb consultancies
23:29:43 <FireFly> ah
23:29:58 <FireFly> I was chatting with a guy from Kx at a meetup here a few months ago
23:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> which apparently accounts for an awful lot of kdb developers, half my team is irish
23:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, the details are probably boring and i'm not sure they aren't sensitive, basically we pull price data from a few sources, clean it up and provide it to other teams downstream
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23:32:46 <shachaf> Ah.
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23:36:27 <fizzie> The thing about US and UK DST switchover differences is, about half of our reoccurring meetings shift by an hour for that one week, but it's completely arbitrary, since it depends on the time zone of whoever happens to be the nominal organizer of the meeting.
23:36:59 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ouch
23:37:11 <FireFly> I visited freenode live over the weekend, which was a pain because it meant three time shifts during one weekend (two for the flights back and forth, one for the DST change)
23:37:14 <wob_jonas> fizzie: do you also sometimes get meetings at the wrong date because you confuse date formats?
23:37:25 <FireFly> at least Sweden and UK both do the DST change simultaneously, so there's that
23:38:12 <wob_jonas> FireFly: exactly, that's what I said. the half of europe that does any DST changes at all change at the same time. in the US, the part that uses DST changes change multiple hours apart.
23:38:29 <FireFly> ah, nod
23:39:01 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I don't think that happens too much (Google Calendar is reasonably good about making dates non-ambiguous), although sometimes dates in other contexts (like emails or bugs) end up being confusing.
23:40:11 <shachaf> FireFly: Oh, you're Freenode staff, aren't you.
23:40:30 <fizzie> (The recurring time is not strictly speaking tied to the time zone of the nominal organizer -- it's a property of the event, but that's where the default comes from.)
23:40:31 <FireFly> yeaah
23:40:33 <FireFly> yeah*
23:40:42 <FireFly> so I helped organise the event too :P
23:41:11 <FireFly> shachaf: also someone hirefly'd a few months ago btw
23:41:40 <FireFly> (well. like 1½)
23:41:58 <shachaf> Don't I HireFly all the time?
23:41:59 <fizzie> Heh. If you set different time zones for the start and end times (which is apparently supported), the 'repeat' option is disabled: "A repeated event cannot start and end in different time zones".
23:42:02 <shachaf> `hi FireFly
23:42:02 <HackEgo> Hi FireFly. HireFly.
23:42:33 <FireFly> I meant in the 'hire' sense more than the 'hi' sense
23:45:10 <wob_jonas> lol
23:45:31 <shachaf> What sort of HireFly?
23:46:50 <fizzie> There's apparently some proposal that UK should adopt BST all year round, and "double summertime" when it's usually DST (so effectively just switch to CET), and also there was a newspaper article just the other day where a sleep researcher recommended Finland to switch to CET too.
23:46:55 <fizzie> I think they should adopt both, since then there'd be no UK/Finland timezone difference to think about.
23:47:18 <Phantom_Hoover> the uk went to BST year-round in like the 80s i think
23:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> only for a trial period and it got shouted down by the scots b/c they didn't like how dark it got on winter mornings
23:48:22 <fizzie> So I've heard. And there was the double summer time ("BDST") during the second war.
23:49:13 <FireFly> shachaf: webdev and mobile app dev, JS stuffs mainly
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