< 1510531202 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in < 1510531220 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1510531284 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510531326 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :PinealGlandOptic: The library used by one implementation of 'file' (e.g. the one in Debian/Ubuntu) is called 'magic', which you can link to and use programmatically. < 1510531358 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :See https://linux.die.net/man/3/libmagic for example. < 1510531489 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510531508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510531928 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1510532123 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thanks! < 1510532489 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510532907 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510533806 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510534024 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510537310 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came up with a great idea for a language for programming in the large. Whenever you call a user defined function you have to specify the exact value of the result. If the actual result doesn't match what you provided, the program quits. < 1510537807 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: user defined function should be defined or not? < 1510537826 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vote for function definition, for better confusion < 1510537949 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510538146 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510538255 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite understand the question < 1510538321 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes I was assumeing that the functions had to be defined before being used. Forward references are a sloppy practice < 1510538497 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510538540 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: except that then functions would be entirely useless < 1510538692 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510538784 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best practice is functions for their self documenting names. That is still an important purpose < 1510539050 0 :Roger9!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd agree with alercah. < 1510539161 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: That's removed if you have to repeat the definition anyway. < 1510539172 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might as well just be a local variable. < 1510539252 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good point. Local variables are are underconstrained, and can be used as a loophole. < 1510539277 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well what I mean is < 1510539278 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have < 1510539290 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = f[results in y + 2](y) < 1510539294 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might well say x = y+2 < 1510539297 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1510539301 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_f = y+2 to preserve the name < 1510539304 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :or x = y+2 // f < 1510539336 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you should recapitulate how the variable got the value it has every time you use it, so you don't get it confused with other variables < 1510539414 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :treating it kind of like a 0 argument function < 1510539434 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1510539440 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1510539446 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could do that < 1510539455 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, again, why have a variable? < 1510539462 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not simply write the expression inline everywhere < 1510539472 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :since every experession would need a full expansion of everything < 1510539485 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd lose mutable state < 1510539494 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely < 1510539546 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because variables are an important component of abstraction and generalization. Getting rid of them entirely would make the program harder to read < 1510539575 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this would be equivalent to that < 1510539586 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write x = y[definition of y]+2 < 1510539600 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :then to use x I have to write z = x[definition of x, which includes definition of y]*2 < 1510539611 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't use any values without retyping the entire code leading up to them < 1510539615 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :defeating the point of abstraction < 1510539669 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, people can get confused when things get too abstract. Its good to have concrete examples to help explicate and ground it. < 1510539743 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it would be more efficient if the compiler substituted in the definitions for you < 1510539846 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you wouldn't have to spend time typing redundant information. I think you have a good point < 1510539881 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:5158:7965:78bf:76ce QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1510540864 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the compiler substitutes the definitions then isn't that the same as not requiring them in the ifrst place? < 1510541575 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because if you didn't require them then it would be easy to call the wrong function by mistake. < 1510541650 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if the compiler is substituting definitions in < 1510541654 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there is no guarantee < 1510541661 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the compiler will just provide the wrong one < 1510542071 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so it needs some extra redundancy to cat the compiler substitution errors. Maybe you could type in a hash that should match what the compiler will substitute in. This would protect against the compiler makeing the wrong substitution < 1510544582 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510546775 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510547327 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510547879 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510548008 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510549519 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510549639 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1510550432 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510550541 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510554031 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1510554450 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1510556601 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1510558893 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510559346 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510561114 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510561166 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510561327 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510561601 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1510561647 0 :garit!~garit@unaffiliated/garit QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510563049 0 :garit!~garit@94.196.113.121.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1510563049 0 :garit!~garit@94.196.113.121.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Changing host < 1510563049 0 :garit!~garit@unaffiliated/garit JOIN :#esoteric < 1510568861 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-omnflnfvbrwrydru QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1510569871 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510574023 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1510580064 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510580304 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:3d3c:8be0:63d6:90dd JOIN :#esoteric < 1510581629 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510581893 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: rebooting < 1510582082 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510582097 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510582102 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyy < 1510582108 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this esoteric agenda? < 1510582138 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-90-193.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :wot < 1510582138 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :watered: it's about esoteric programming < 1510582898 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any interesting accomplishments of this language? < 1510582942 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a single language, esoteric programming languages are basically the entire family of languages for which being useful to use in practice is not a primary goal < 1510582978 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it prove anything? < 1510582984 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a number of other reasons to write languages, e.g. to learn how to write languages, to explore the edges of what's possible in programming, as art < 1510583029 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prove plenty of things with esoteric programming languages, but they're mostly confined to other esoteric programming languages < 1510583037 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the most practical proofs I've been seen have been related to exploits in other programs < 1510583056 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1510583057 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :showing that you can exploit the bug to do anything via implementing an esolang (= esoteric programming language) usnig it < 1510583431 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1510584811 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-247-71.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1510584927 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-90-193.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510585251 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-247-71.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually esoteric languages are very useful for computation theory < 1510585256 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-247-71.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they're very simpler < 1510585276 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-247-71.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the proof for the control structure theorem was done in the original brainfuck < 1510585277 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-247-71.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :P'' < 1510586359 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510586363 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1510586367 0 :callforjudgement!?@? NICK :ais523 < 1510587068 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1510587222 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510587346 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1510588372 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1510588774 0 :hyp3rbor3a!~hyperbor3@p5DDF277C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1510589130 0 :hyp3rbor3a!~hyperbor3@p5DDF277C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1510589140 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdvv6lcpljuq7d.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1510590903 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1510592109 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1510592796 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:463a:27e5:e51a:6583:a9db:c402 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510593112 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:463a:27e5:e51a:6583:a9db:c402 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1510593773 0 :atrapado_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1510593918 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:f37d:7c3e:ea89:1e87:aea6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1510594715 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:f37d:cdce:a349:d867:cd74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510595569 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1510595731 0 :watered!~water@2405:204:5398:f419:5fcd:63eb:848:ba96 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510596858 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510597646 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1510597711 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510598298 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510598372 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510598794 0 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie TOPIC #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1510598800 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CaC is back.) < 1510599182 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still planning to move it to some slightly more reputable host, and ask (in a tasteful way, y'know) for people to contribute to the costs (est. around $5/month). < 1510599189 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking we might have an "Esolang:Backers" page (or some such), where you could get your name on by donating (and opting in). Let me know if you find this offensive / have other objections / thoughts. < 1510599529 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not offended by the request < 1510599572 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find sending money over the Internet to be a huge hassle though, to the extent that I tend not to be responsive to requests for money because the act of sending it is so complex < 1510599730 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fair. I believe receiving it is pretty complicated as well, though I got some tips from a random person who emailed me re the note I had left on top of the backup wiki copy. < 1510600022 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1510600447 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1510600993 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PART #esoteric : < 1510601713 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1510602004 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1510602221 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510602280 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also, transferring money online, as opposed to paying with money online, when it's in a foreign currency, has a high constant fee at my bank, so it's not really practical. whereas anything on paypal has a high percentage fee. < 1510602375 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sending banknotes in an envelope has a low enough fee, but is not insured. < 1510602434 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, most of the things I've looked at have had percentage fees attached. Not sure if I'd call them "high", but still. < 1510602532 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe we should just be selling my fungot T-shirt design online, it's already got an esolangs.org link on it. ;) < 1510602532 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that eating royal jelly attracts grizzly owlbears. ( travels and researches in south africa, by e. howard, bjorn nyberg, and the light but warm silken stuff that the ladies were accustomed to wearing luxurious clothings and so he flew along the slender catwalk that still seemed awfully insubstantial to flynn, though they are quite difficult to kill large animals... their lower teeth fit perfectly into the requi < 1510602543 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's tricky, because they always list their nominal fees for various operations, such as transfer or payment, and those are low. but paypal insists that I can only send HUF to my account, and they're only willing to charge my bank card in HUF, and convert currency themselves, and they convert it very expensively, whereas my bank converts th < 1510602543 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :em cheaply. < 1510602572 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are clearly doing that to add a hidden fee, because my bank can handle charges on my bank card in any reasonable currency. < 1510602632 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I think I had some PayPal worries when moving from Finland to UK as well, they seem pretty strict about the account being tied to a particular country and having one currency. < 1510602638 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will have to investigate more, I guess. < 1510602652 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course there's always BitCoin. < 1510602716 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, my brother complained even more about it, since he lives in Sweden, and had troubles with telling paypal that < 1510602746 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's like a lot of commercial wobsites on the internet are optimized to the case when they can guess your country and language from your IP. < 1510602755 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they never allow you to second guess. < 1510602782 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, there's websites for scientific publishers that serve journal articles for free to "developing countries". < 1510602839 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is international websites, not the websites of all-Hungarian stores, which are even worse. < 1510602879 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, mediamarkt.hu has a most terrible website for online orders, but since there are only like seven big electronics stores in Hungary, you can't just choose another one. < 1510602937 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope the post will eventually just kick them in the butt for sending mass packages with improperly printed addresses. < 1510602974 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then they won't be able to offer free or cheap postage. < 1510603176 0 :atrapado_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1510603188 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm paying Finnish VAT rates for my DigitalOcean host instead of the UK ones, because they don't let you set the VAT country, it's forced to be the country of the bank issuing the credit card you're paying with. (And the Finnish card has better currency conversion than the UK one.) < 1510603296 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: which one of those has a higher VAT for that? < 1510603306 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland, unfortunately. < 1510603341 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1510603441 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that make up for the higher VAT? < 1510603488 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think that's what I ended up getting, when I tried to check. < 1510603506 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I have a vague feeling I shouldn't be able to choose, but the VAT should be based on residency. < 1510603560 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no idea how it's supposed to work < 1510603600 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I don't know. It's not like there's a physical location where they're selling the thing. < 1510603632 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think that's how it works in theory (residency). < 1510603743 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but giving a false address is probably easier than giving a bank account in a different country... < 1510603796 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :just move somewhere with no VAT hth < 1510603799 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I expect that nobody's verifying that address.) < 1510603812 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I find out my credit card's exchange rates? < 1510603834 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pay with it and let yourself be surprised? < 1510603859 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ask your bank. my bank has a homepage on the internet, and if you dig through all the legalese that is deliberately written confusing so you don't understand it, and phone them up to clear up ambiguities, you can usually figure out everything. < 1510603875 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the real answer is to read the terms of service, which *should* tell you how the bank handles foreign currency transactions) < 1510603877 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most banks have similar homepages. < 1510603884 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of my credit/debit cards have a foreign transaction fee. < 1510603895 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently I got one that doesn't (it should arrive in the mail soon) < 1510603929 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they add about 3% to the official exchange rate in my case. < 1510603975 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not high ones though. they have a high fee for foreign transfers, and a higher than usual fee for withdrawing cash in foreign countries, but for just card or online payment they only use a currency sell exchange rate which has a low margin. < 1510603975 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I didn't check. < 1510603989 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the usual fee is around 3% < 1510603996 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite sure they don't add a fee for foreign currency payments for me. < 1510604054 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect it to be hidden in the exchange rate. < 1510604114 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if they can set the exchange rate 3% higher, they can do the same thing even if you do pay an additional fee. < 1510604124 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also foreign transactions can be USD, I think. < 1510604160 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the sell and buy exchange rate for that definitely differ, but nothing as big as 3% is hidden there. < 1510604231 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: for transfers, they charge the very high flat rate if the destination is a bank account not in Hungary or the currency is not HUF. for payment, neither matters. < 1510604256 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about foreign currency withdrawal for ATM, I've never needed to check that. < 1510604595 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1510604693 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We're sorry, but we're currently upgrading our Website." < 1510604703 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who upgrades their website during business hours? < 1510605286 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: business hours where? It's in the night! < 1510605306 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This website has "us" in the domain name < 1510605334 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2620:101:80fb:232:6589:1e8b:7512:e96e JOIN :#esoteric < 1510605683 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510605899 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1510605927 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510607548 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write an antivirus that actually just mines bitcoins when you scan < 1510607643 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: yeah, there already exist malware masquarading as an antivirus < 1510607656 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's a bitcoin mining one in particular, but in general these exist < 1510607791 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2620:101:80fb:232:6589:1e8b:7512:e96e QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510607841 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1510607916 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1510608351 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510608713 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609735 0 :david3x3x3!3425a618@gateway/web/freenode/ip.52.37.166.24 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609746 0 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609829 0 :__20h___!~some_one@r-36.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609908 0 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1510609908 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1510609908 0 :__20h__!~some_one@r-36.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1510609908 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1510609909 0 :sdhand!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1510609934 0 :erdic_!~erdic@81.4.123.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609935 0 :erdic_!~erdic@81.4.123.134 QUIT :Changing host < 1510609935 0 :erdic_!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1510609936 0 :erdic_!?@? NICK :erdic < 1510609987 0 :sdhand!~sam@2001:41c8:51:10d:: JOIN :#esoteric < 1510610010 0 :sdhand!?@? NICK :Guest50154 < 1510610026 0 :Guest50154!~sam@2001:41c8:51:10d:: QUIT :Changing host < 1510610026 0 :Guest50154!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko JOIN :#esoteric < 1510610026 0 :Guest50154!?@? NICK :sdhand < 1510610057 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1510610203 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1510610405 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1510611001 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1510611120 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2620:101:80fb:232:64c1:3980:c173:d8d6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1510611178 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdvv6lcpljuq7d.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1510611236 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, why did I try to look up best practices when I already know what I want the answer to be? now I just have to worry I'm not doing what the interweb says. < 1510611237 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: they say that a fortune only has 1 line and you should call your armor before sitting on a strictly cartesian sense. < 1510611249 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1510611423 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the advantage of asking fungot is that you won't know what the answer will be? < 1510611423 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they say that nurses sometimes carry scalpels and never use a unicorn horn means you've missed the bunch. turning round again with a face of the stone would fall again. ( i wandered lonely as a cloud in fear. the christian calendar adopted the same fashion that a wizard!" < 1510611453 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp unicorn < 1510611469 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :horn:Horn is the reduction system behind Prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. \ ipu:IPU is an invisible pink unicorn. < 1510611475 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1510611478 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. whose is that? < 1510611486 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`howg horn < 1510611493 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. < 1510611510 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it looked like one of mine but I didn't remember setting it < 1510611522 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg horn < 1510611528 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :7107:2016-03-06 ` sed -i \'s/prolog/Prolog/\' wisdom/horn \ 7105:2016-03-06 learn Horn is the reduction system behind prolog, and also the magical body part growing on the head of unicorns. < 1510611540 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so recent I guess < 1510611564 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but few of my wisdoms are recent anyway < 1510611574 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg submarine jousting < 1510611581 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8400:2016-06-08 sled wisdom/submarine jousting//s/./S/ \ 8399:2016-06-07 le/rn submarine jousting/submarine jousting is unexplainable. \ 8398:2016-06-07 le/rn submarine jousting/This is unexplainable. < 1510611596 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1510611598 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is unavailable due to budget cuts < 1510612304 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zokajcloxxbaxbwr JOIN :#esoteric < 1510613890 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang talk:Funding14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53361 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+2919) 10esolangs.org hosting funding proposal < 1510614083 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Main Page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53362&oldid=52884 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+69) 10(Temporary) link to "Esolang talk:Funding" for visibility < 1510615851 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510616111 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1510616723 0 :david3x3x3!3425a618@gateway/web/freenode/ip.52.37.166.24 PART #esoteric : < 1510617178 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:3d3c:8be0:63d6:90dd QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1510617259 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1105 < 1510617260 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1105: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1510617420 0 :wob_jonas!b03f180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.11 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, shachaf