←2017-11-25 2017-11-26 2017-11-27→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:26:39 <oerjan> oh no, arjanb, my old nemesis
00:27:37 <oerjan> (e fits my log self search pattern)
00:27:55 <oerjan> also helloily
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00:30:31 <quintopia> boily appears to have disapparated
00:30:50 <quintopia> what's going on in oerjanland?
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00:48:17 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
00:48:27 <boily> not disapparated, just cooking and eating.
00:51:33 <Roger9> 'Ello.
01:01:33 <oerjan> quintopia: it's procrastination all the way down hth
01:05:29 <boily> hellørjan!
01:06:57 <Roger9> Hellørjan, hoily, hellopia, and helloony.
01:08:55 <boily> `? Roger9
01:08:56 <HackEgo> Roger9? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:09:13 <Roger9> btw, you guys know that I'm rdococ, right?
01:09:20 <Roger9> I know it's an unfortunate fact, but...
01:09:32 * boily mapoles Roger9 with joy and mirth
01:09:47 <Roger9> I honestly don't think I'm liked that much here.
01:11:10 <oerjan> rogellor
01:11:47 <Roger9> Bonjørjan.
01:12:53 <oerjan> Roger9: i knew because i checked whois.
01:13:10 <oerjan> and later your wiki edits made it rather obvious
01:13:18 <Roger9> True.
01:13:29 <boily> Roger9: you are welcome. also, I like mapoling you ^^
01:13:41 * Roger9 mapoles boily back
01:18:19 <oerjan> Roger9: unless i'm confusing you with someone else i recall you complaining a lot about how disliked you were, which ironically was the only thing which really annoyed me.
01:19:02 <Roger9> oerjan: ...huh.
01:28:53 <shachaf> `5 w
01:28:58 <HackEgo> 1/2:ananas//ananas is the real pineapple. \ thé//Thé is an oddly-spelled hot beverage popular in the Commonwealth. \ örjan//Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ vorpal//Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. \ mornington crescent//Sorry, you
01:29:00 <shachaf> `n
01:29:01 <HackEgo> 2/2: cannot read this wisdom until you've legally played Westminster.
01:29:21 <boily> `? chess
01:29:22 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
01:29:37 <boily> Move pineapples for great justice!
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02:00:04 <zzo38> In this GURPS game we got dirty because the fire pit (fortunately with no fire) that we were hiding in was dirty. Later when getting clean, I decided to not clean the gold key we stole, for two reasons that might be useful in future.
02:03:25 <garit> I always wanted to play dnd or gurps. But because of my personality game doesn't last long =(
02:03:55 <zzo38> OK, can you elaborate how it won't last long due to personality then?
02:04:29 <garit> I go into too much details and other think that game is boring now
02:05:02 <zzo38> Play with the others who like that then, instead of who hate it.
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02:18:23 <moony> This. I just. This. https://youtu.be/nfdEdE96En0
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02:18:41 <moony> brb buying a hamburger
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02:21:08 <boily> moony: what kind? meat? cheese? sauces? vegetable agreements?
02:21:40 <moony> boily, electronic chair burger.
02:23:44 <boily> that is a hamburger fit for fungots. are you human?
02:23:44 <fungot> boily: fnord is scientific ( exponential) notation... would fnord also be a dominant to fnord people in taiwan are from china originally
02:24:14 <moony> boily, yes, i am a moony.
02:24:55 * oerjan ate a bacon burger today hth hth
02:25:03 <oerjan> oops
02:25:07 <oerjan> *-hth
02:25:16 <shachaf> tdnh hth
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02:32:04 <boily> thth dh hth.
02:32:05 * oerjan thinks "dimension" sounds weird with a short i
02:32:24 <shachaf> i,i trimension
02:32:57 <oerjan> immension
02:33:45 <shachaf> immersion
02:35:47 <Roger9> submersion?
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03:01:16 <zzo38> (One thing is if someone else look at our stuff, they will not find the gold key because now it is black instead of gold. Other thing is if now there are a lot of gold keys, it is easier to tell apart this one because it is dirty. And if it is mixed with dirty keys, we can clean them to find the gold one.)
03:03:07 <\oren\> lol steam's privacy system has holes
03:04:37 <quintopia> boily: when dimension is abbreviated as dim, do you pronounce it like dime?
03:04:48 <quintopia> s/boily/oerjan/
03:05:45 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/a/NnKGd
03:06:46 <\oren\> even if someone has their privacy settings set to not show their game inventory, you can still tell on a store page, whther they have that game
03:09:32 <boily> it's a dim dimension, obviously.
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03:11:44 <Roger9> heh
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03:17:47 <\oren\> so I can tell what games shachaf owns by scrolling thru the games and looking for his icon
03:17:56 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/7aBXiGT
03:19:50 <shachaf> \oren\: delete that screenshot twh
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03:20:40 <\oren\> lolok
03:22:31 <oerjan> quintopia: um probably.
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03:22:39 <oerjan> er wait
03:22:47 <oerjan> no.
03:23:27 <\oren\> shachaf: btw the correct meme for that is "delet tis"
03:24:04 <shachaf> What's the correct moomin?
03:24:12 <oerjan> darn i was too late to steal personal incriminating information about shachaf
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03:24:47 <\oren\> oerjan: it was jsut that he plays stardew valley
03:25:01 <oerjan> OKAY *scribbles in notebook*
03:27:25 <\oren\> which I'm fairly certain is some kind of harvest moon ripoff anyway
03:27:52 <\oren\> so, not even an embarrasing game to own
03:28:40 <\oren\> hmmm.... I wonder if they know this security hole exists
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03:39:20 <zzo38> My GURPS character now has the power to light himself on fire as a free action, for up to ten seconds. This power can be used six times (after which it is permanently gone).
03:41:44 <zzo38> This was inadvertent; I saw a goat that was on fire, and I used my breath attack to cause them to sleep, and they did fall asleep but that also extinguished the fire, so I went to eat their blood, and when I was finish I found that I had this power, somehow.
03:42:21 <zzo38> Since my character is carrying many thing that can be damaged by the fire (including paper), therefore it would have to be put aside before using this power if not want it to be damaged.
04:06:42 <doesthiswork> that is useful when you're out of matches
04:13:36 <zzo38> Yes, I guess so.
04:14:06 <doesthiswork> and to quickly undress
04:15:06 <zzo38> How is that?
04:16:30 <doesthiswork> assuming they're flammable you will be undressed after the self immoliation
04:17:27 <\oren\> putting the red-hot into red hot stripper
04:17:54 <zzo38> Yes, if you want to ruin the clothing.
04:18:35 <shachaf> \oren\: Did you play Factorio yet?
04:18:42 <\oren\> not yet
04:19:14 <shachaf> You can get the demo for free if you like
04:19:18 <shachaf> It gives you a general idea of the jam
04:21:45 <\oren\> ok I'm downloading it... will take 40 minutes
04:21:51 <shachaf> Huh?
04:21:59 <shachaf> You're still using dial-up in Canada?
04:22:26 <\oren\> I get about 700 kb/s
04:22:42 <shachaf> Is that bits or bytes?
04:22:48 <\oren\> kilobytes
04:22:56 <\oren\> ... i think
04:23:14 <shachaf> whoa, it's 400 MB?!
04:23:17 <shachaf> I thought it was smaller
04:23:47 <\oren\> steams says 600
04:23:49 <zzo38> My character wear cloth armour and a strapped shield, and is also carrying a book and writing equipment, and some money, and a lantern (for use in dark caves; he can see outside at night without it).
04:24:03 <zzo38> O, and also a gold key.
04:24:31 <\oren\> I keep steam downloading throttled by half or it hogs all the abndowidth and my ssh connections time out
04:25:23 <\oren\> I really need to loook into this "fiber" thing they keep sending us spam about
04:25:57 <shachaf> Are they trying to sell you fiber bundles?
04:26:23 <\oren\> yeah fiber internet and cable
04:28:00 <zzo38> Do you know how much flammable some of these things are? I know the paper will be flammable but others I don't know?
04:29:10 <\oren\> zzo38: well i assume cloth armour is natural fibres...
04:29:53 <doesthiswork> I assume that the lantern oil can burn
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04:33:23 <zzo38> I don't know much about armour.
04:34:05 <zzo38> The GURPS book says it takes three seconds to add or remove one piece of armour, but I do not know if that is reasonable or not.
04:34:37 <zzo38> If you have any armour then you can try and you can see how long it takes.
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04:36:29 <doesthiswork> thats about how long it takes me to remove my shirt
04:37:23 <shachaf> `learn A kittegory is just a small category.
04:37:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'kittegory': A kittegory is just a small category.
04:37:52 <shachaf> `? preorder
04:37:53 <HackEgo> A preorder is just a small thin category.
04:39:35 * oerjan lightly swats shachaf with a fiber bundle -----###
04:40:33 <shachaf> ouch tdnh
04:40:54 <shachaf> also your fiber bundle looks an awful lot like your usual swatter
04:41:28 <oerjan> sure, it's made of fibers
04:41:45 <doesthiswork> have you ever seen fiber optic concrete? its cool stuff
04:42:01 <oerjan> . o O ( only in the abstract )
04:42:45 <\oren\> I can get 50 MB/s for 100 $ a month
04:44:01 <oerjan> 50 mb/S
04:45:31 <shachaf> millibits/siemens?
04:45:35 <oerjan> `frink 50 mb/S
04:45:42 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "mb". \ 50 m^2 s^-3 kg A^-2 (electric_resistance) mb (undefined symbol)
04:45:46 <oerjan> hmph
04:46:51 <oerjan> `learn Nnections are measured in millibits per siemens.
04:46:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'nnection': Nnections are measured in millibits per siemens.
04:47:26 <shachaf> But connections are measured in megabits per second
04:47:40 <oerjan> exactly!
04:48:03 <shachaf> So why aren't nnections measured in millibytes per siemens?
04:48:08 <shachaf> `frink ohm
04:48:10 <oerjan> oh
04:48:11 <HackEgo> 1 m^2 s^-3 kg A^-2 (electric_resistance)
04:48:27 <oerjan> `slwd nnection//s,bit,byte,
04:48:29 <HackEgo> nnection//Nnections are measured in millibytes per siemens.
04:49:39 <\oren\> There are cheaper plans but obviously I would never even consider anything with a usage cap
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06:04:16 <\oren\> shachaf: I got killed by beetle wolf things
06:04:56 <\oren\> my machine gun ran out of bullets
06:06:31 <oerjan> . o O ( these wolves look buggy )
06:19:35 <shachaf> \oren\: Should've defended better.
06:19:41 <shachaf> Defense isn't really a huge part of the game
06:19:57 <shachaf> The aliens aren't very smart
06:20:07 <shachaf> They just get mad at you for polluting their planet
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07:25:58 <zzo38> Is there a better way to draw a bezier curve other than by solving the cubic for X and Y?
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07:57:36 <oerjan> . o O ( a bezier way )
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08:08:04 <zzo38> Whatever I did it does not even work quite right, whether because I made a mistake in the function to solve a cubic, or due to some other problem
08:34:50 <int-e> I thought people used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Casteljau%27s_algorithm for drawing Bezier curves
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08:37:31 <int-e> or rather the Bezier curve subdivision that it entails
08:39:46 <int-e> e.g. http://antigrain.com/research/adaptive_bezier/
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12:31:17 <fizzie> Back when I was doing my non-military military service alternative and living in a student flat in Vantaa, I had a part-of-the-rent Internet service, and it entirely broke (disconnected) all SSH connections whenever I tried to download anything at "full speed".
12:31:23 <fizzie> Eventually I had to set up some local traffic shaping with a bandwidth limit of 90% or so of the nominal speed, after which it was bearable.
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12:43:45 <shachaf> hizzie
12:44:04 <shachaf> I was saying the other day that bandwidth should be measured in time/data instead of data/time
12:44:15 <fizzie> Mochaf. Yes, I think I remember that.
12:44:23 <shachaf> @time
12:44:26 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Nov 26 04:44:23 2017
12:44:37 <shachaf> Unfortunately I've yet to sleepchaf
12:47:09 <fizzie> These days I have a nominally 113 s/GiB internet connection.
12:48:35 <shachaf> That's a long time, 113 seconds
12:49:21 <fizzie> A gigabyte is a not-insignificant amount of data as well, if not quite "alot".
12:50:01 <shachaf> This reminds me of a middle school problem I saw in an article.
12:50:52 <shachaf> "Tom and Dick working together can do a job in 2 hours. Tom and Harry can do the job in 4 hours. Dick and Harry can do the job in 4 hours. How long would it take Tom, Dick, and Harry to do the job?"
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13:22:54 <fizzie> shachaf: Is the answer 2 hours, 4 hours, or a punchline about social organization?
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14:18:39 <Roger9> 'Ellokin, xaphellostel.
14:19:41 <boily> Relloger9. xaphellostel???
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15:05:51 <Roger9> Hoily, hibbu.
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15:14:22 <Roger9> I'm working on a concept for an esolang in which the only instruction is a Fredkin gate.
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15:51:45 <Vorpal> <shachaf> I was saying the other day that bandwidth should be measured in time/data instead of data/time <-- huh, why?
15:52:14 <Vorpal> actually, you do measure water flow in m^3 / s don't you? So I guess that makes sense
15:52:39 <Vorpal> wait, it makes less sense
15:52:59 <Vorpal> no I don't see why it should be time/data
15:53:08 <Vorpal> illuminate me
15:53:23 <Cale> It doesn't actually matter, but usually we like derivatives with respect to time.
15:54:03 <Vorpal> obviously both could work yes, but I'm wondering why shachaf wants the opposite of that
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16:17:30 <boily> Roger9: what is a Fredkin gate?
16:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a billiard ball gate
16:18:10 <boily> Vorpal: Vellorpal. maybe for downloads and uploads? “it takes me 5 s/MB to upload a picture to Dropbox” or something.
16:18:36 <boily> Phantom_Helloover. so physics engine to interpret programs?
16:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> nah it's abstracted
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16:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredkin_gate
16:19:21 <boily> beuh... not even a sound system for ball collisions? simulated blue chalk?
16:19:42 <Roger9> boily: The Fredkin gate takes three inputs (A, B, and C). If A is true, then the gate swaps B with C (so it outputs (A, C, B)). Otherwise, it functions as an identity gate.
16:19:48 <int-e> fungot: what does boily mean?
16:19:48 <fungot> int-e: are all surreal numbers symmetric games? you find a local minimum every day around 0600. ( i don't like
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16:20:07 <int-e> thanks, it all makes sense now.
16:20:13 <Roger9> In other words, the gate preserves the number of true values and false values in the result.
16:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> more importantly it's reversible
16:21:22 <boily> int-e: if it is a billiard ball gate, I expect billiard balls hth
16:22:05 <boily> reversible computing sounds nice, but are there applications?
16:23:08 <int-e> quantum computing has that restrictions - you have all these unitary operators working on your state, which happen to be invertible
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16:24:03 <Roger9> I'm trying to think of a way to make this esolang concept Turing-complete without preventing it from being reversible.
16:24:04 <int-e> but there's other applications - energy effficiency, avoidance of side channels
16:24:21 <int-e> `? effficiency
16:24:23 <HackEgo> effficiency? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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16:27:50 <int-e> (though for the latter applications you mostly want the property that the sum of the outputs is equal to the sum of inputs; for example, an andor gate (two outputs) would be fine despite not being reversible)
16:30:09 * boily reads more about quantum things
16:32:49 <int-e> . o O ( There should be a version of counterstrike that says "capitalists win" whenever a shot is fired. )
16:34:33 <boily> https://www.xkcd.com/873/
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18:21:49 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "Analytical methods where a Bezier is intersected with each scan line involve finding roots of cubic polynomials and dealing with multiple roots, so they are not often used in practice." Well, I didn't see that before so I did not know that, and it is the method I was trying to use. I will look now at De Casteljau's algorithm and see what that says.
19:04:08 <zzo38> The reason my method of finding the root didn't work was a mistake that now I fixed, so now it does work.
19:11:17 <Roger9> On the topic of the Fredkin gate, you could encode every boolean value as a pair of values - (1, 0) for true and (0, 1) for false - which would mean that you can invert a value without changing the number of 0s or 1s (which a Fredkin gate cannot do), among other things.
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20:22:29 <quintopia> how do you do "and" with a fredkin gate?
20:23:49 <quintopia> i guess you would take the first part of the first input as "a" and the swapped other input as "b, c"
20:27:27 <int-e> you have an ifthenelse in the last component: (a,b,c) -> if a then (a,c,b) else (a,b,c). so if you have constants, you can use if a then b else 0 forlogical and.
20:28:47 <quintopia> i was referring specifically to the context with (1,0)=true and (0,1)=false
20:38:10 <int-e> Well what you have a negated xor, I think
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21:27:50 <shachaf> fizzie: The answer is none of those, it's a real problem.
21:28:01 <shachaf> fizzie: Assuming work behaves linearly and so on.
21:28:17 <shachaf> Vorpal: I also think time/distance is a better unit (in some contexts) than distance over time.
21:28:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: Just like people use litre/100km to measure fuel consumption, instead of km/litre
21:29:14 <shachaf> Vorpal: You pay time, and you get distance in return, so time/distance is the right unit for most calculations.
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21:59:18 <Roger9> Hellaugur.
21:59:22 <Roger9> ...byeaugur.
21:59:55 <fizzie> shachaf: I thought 2 hours was the "linear" answer. I mean, assuming Tom and Dick do the same amount of work/time (clearly they have to, since Tom+Harry do the same as Dick+Harry), then either one of them already do it in 4 hours alone, which means Harry doesn't do any work at all.
22:00:45 <shachaf> fizzie: No, they all cooperate on the work
22:00:56 <shachaf> It's parallelizable
22:01:25 <shachaf> Wait, did I write it wrong?
22:01:36 <shachaf> Oh
22:02:11 <shachaf> Tom and Dick in 2 hours; Tom and Harry in 3 hours; Dick and Harry in 4 hours
22:02:18 <fizzie> Oh. Well, that makes more sense.
22:02:43 <shachaf> Yes, that was nonsense.
22:03:23 <fizzie> I thought it was a joke about either Harry being useless (doing 0 units of work/hour), or actively sabotaging things (any job involving Harry takes 4 hours).
22:06:46 <int-e> quintopia: I get a CCNOT from the Fredkin gate using only one constant which can be used over and over again. http://sprunge.us/TcEN
22:09:08 <int-e> quintopia: Where by "constant" I really mean a variable with a predefined initial state; is there a better short name for this?
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22:32:39 <quintopia> how does a ccnot differ from a cnot?
22:33:25 <int-e> It checks the conjunction of two inputs.
22:34:58 <int-e> The fundamental difference is that CNOT is affine (and affine functions are closed under compositions so CNOT by itself isn't very useful) and CCNOT is not affine (and in fact, universal).
22:36:27 <int-e> (affine: every output is the xor of a subset of inputs, possibly negated)
22:36:56 <shachaf> What is linear?
22:37:29 <int-e> linear is doesn't have the optional negation
22:37:51 <shachaf> Why does negation correspond to translation?
22:38:14 <int-e> because xor is addition, and 1 xor x is the negation of x
22:39:09 <shachaf> Oh, xor is addition
22:41:27 <int-e> (CNOT is actually linear. Affinity is natural because it's one of the criteria by Post: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Characterization_of_functional_completeness )
22:43:23 <int-e> (If you look closely you'll see that CCNOT needs constants to become functionally complete; it's false-preserving.)
22:44:31 <shachaf> Do you like the exterior algebra?
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22:58:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Malbranche]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53437&oldid=50554 * Malbranche * (+173) Added references to some new Malbolge Unshackled programs
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