00:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in).
00:00:18 -!- danieljabailey has joined.
00:00:33 <zzo38> See if you like this http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+9 and also what complaint you have of it please.
00:05:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:59 <oerjan> wob_jonas: boily: i think you mean swedish hth
00:06:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
00:06:45 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
00:08:42 <wob_jonas> oerjan: swedish or norwegian are hard to distinguish for me, especially from such a small sample.
00:09:58 <oerjan> it's actually fairly easy: norwegian generally writes "ei" instead of "ej".
00:09:59 <wob_jonas> oerjan: if you said "vatn" or "vann" or "senter" I might know it's norwegian, otherwise not much chance
00:10:57 <oerjan> "mycket" is also a clue, norwegian doesn't use "ck" much
00:11:11 <wob_jonas> so you're saying norwegian doesn't use "hei" as the spelling? intersting
00:11:19 <wob_jonas> obviously that's a word I hear more than see written
00:12:06 <oerjan> also "hemskt" is not norwegian either, but that's probably harder to discern just from general spelling.
00:12:46 <oerjan> well, norwegian words in -sk don't take the final -t in neuter, so there _is_ a general rule there
00:13:19 <oerjan> although "hemsk" isn't very norwegian either
00:13:39 <wob_jonas> not that it's too important for me to learn to distinguish swedish from norwegian. distinguishing languages is useful to know who to ask to translate something I don't understand, but in the case of swedish vs norwegian it doesn't matter that much
00:13:51 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:14:31 <wob_jonas> as opposed to, say, distinguishing persian from arabic
00:16:31 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:17:04 -!- sleffy has joined.
00:19:29 <zzo38> (It is written in English, not in Swedish. You can translate it if you wish, but probably there is not much point.)
00:21:39 <zzo38> The file I linked above
00:22:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:22:11 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:15 <oerjan> when i watched boily's link, youtube suggested this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1lvMJ-l0_A
00:23:21 <boily> no. no no no NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:26:30 -!- sleffy has joined.
00:27:36 <oerjan> (also, it's the books' fault)
00:28:08 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O. Well, I think maybe you should read that file, in order to make a comment/complaint/question/whatever about it please.
00:34:18 <oerjan> boily: i completely misunderstood the title of that
00:34:32 <oerjan> (norwegian false friend)
00:34:46 <oerjan> it actually means "it's the gays' fault"
00:35:02 <boily> there are false friends between swedish and norwegian?
00:35:05 <oerjan> now it makes much more sense
00:37:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: this seems to be a different game than the long one you've written so much about
00:38:25 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, it is a different one.
00:38:41 <zzo38> This one is GURPS; the other one is Dungeons&Dragons
00:39:13 <oerjan> sv:pula med means something like "dabble with", while no:pule med means "fuck"
00:40:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: meh, lots of words become meaning "fuck" in languages, because of euphemisms
00:40:20 <zzo38> Now I play GURPS; I prefer it over Dungeons&Dragons
00:41:54 <oerjan> hm apparently it can mean "fuck" in swedish too
00:42:32 <oerjan> no:koselig = cozy, sv:kuslig = eerie
00:48:09 <boily> fr_FR:gosses = children, fr_CA:gosses = testicles...
00:49:13 <wob_jonas> boily: hehe. same principle though. that's one of those things that gather a lot of synonyms that start out as euphemisms
00:50:58 <wob_jonas> boily: "pants" in English is one of the more confusing false friends by the way
00:51:50 <wob_jonas> luckily English has too much words, so usually for any false friend you can use a synonym instead
00:52:21 <wob_jonas> espeically so for a false friend, becuase there's almost certainly a synonym for what it doesn't mean, and that's usually less ambiguous
00:55:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: The 25th IOCCC is open until 2018-Feb-28 05:29:15 UTC | Welcome to the international millennium for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
00:55:51 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
00:58:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘?’
00:58:46 <oerjan> hm strange place to err out
00:59:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: parse error on input ‘?’
01:00:55 <oerjan> > let ?m="test" in ? m
01:00:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: error: parse error on input ‘?’
01:04:01 <oerjan> this is pretty on topic for this channel https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/152406/
01:06:50 <oerjan> (halting problem thwarter in brainfuck)
01:09:17 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:10:58 -!- sleffy has joined.
01:13:30 -!- garit has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:18:25 <esowiki> [[Dogescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53778&oldid=53770 * Oerjan * (+111) Undo and use wayback
02:04:01 <boily> fungot: are you one, or are you legion?
02:04:01 <fungot> boily: well i got summer holidays now so :)
02:18:28 <oerjan> fungot: um i think you're hemispherically confused
02:18:28 <fungot> oerjan: i like it. i was thinking about implementing a turing-complete language to have? message-passing/ multimethods? with or without
02:18:45 <fungot> oerjan: but i'm not set upon them." " take the plunge, to enter with a keyboard and go play with my implementation, but: are you interesting?
02:29:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ALBUM CHICKEN).
02:33:50 -!- garit has joined.
02:33:50 -!- garit has quit (Changing host).
02:33:50 -!- garit has joined.
02:51:03 -!- ATMunn has quit (Disconnected by services).
02:51:13 -!- ATMunn has joined.
03:04:11 -!- conquerEZ0BAX has joined.
03:09:46 -!- conquerEZ0BAX has quit (K-Lined).
04:12:27 -!- adu has joined.
04:21:22 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:29:35 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
04:29:59 -!- doesthiswork has changed nick to Guest92087.
04:36:50 -!- Guest92087 has changed nick to doesthiiswork.
04:56:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:17:06 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:18:31 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:27:40 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
05:28:03 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest56946.
05:28:09 -!- ATMunn has joined.
05:43:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
06:11:59 -!- doesthiiswork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:29:02 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip).
06:29:02 -!- Guest56946 has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened).
06:29:18 -!- ATMunn has joined.
06:30:04 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
06:30:28 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Guest69425.
07:10:10 -!- atslash has joined.
07:10:10 -!- atslash has quit (Client Quit).
07:49:38 -!- atslash has joined.
08:32:22 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
08:42:57 -!- atslash has joined.
08:47:45 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
09:11:28 -!- atslash has joined.
09:16:21 -!- jaboja has joined.
09:28:31 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:52:25 -!- jaboja has joined.
09:55:47 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:01:10 -!- FreeFull has quit.
10:36:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:40:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:42:15 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:47:23 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:17:40 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
11:20:45 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:32:43 -!- Melvar has joined.
11:34:57 -!- boily has joined.
11:57:22 -!- honigkuchen has joined.
11:58:57 -!- honigkuchen has quit (Client Quit).
12:01:27 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:01:59 -!- Melvar has joined.
12:19:35 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:20:07 -!- Melvar has joined.
12:22:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PANCREATIC CHICKEN).
13:29:37 -!- FreeFull has joined.
13:30:08 -!- jaboja has joined.
13:47:45 -!- vertrex has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb1 - http://znc.in).
13:53:06 <b_jonas> In the traditional name "vmlinuz" of linux kernel images, what did the "vm" originally stand for?
13:55:25 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:55:55 -!- Melvar has joined.
13:58:44 -!- vertrex has joined.
13:58:44 -!- vertrex has quit (Changing host).
13:58:44 -!- vertrex has joined.
14:11:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was Googling that not long ago, actually. Wikipedia claims it's the usual, "virtual memory".
14:11:24 <fizzie> "Traditionally, UNIX platforms called the kernel image /unix. With the development of virtual memory, kernels that supported this feature were given the vm- prefix to differentiate them. The name vmlinux is a mutation of vmunix, while in vmlinuz the letter z at the end denotes that it is compressed (for example gzipped)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vmlinux#Etymology
14:14:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the "z" part makes sense
14:15:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: but the "virtual memory" doesn't
14:15:25 <b_jonas> so you're saying that older linuxes didn't support virtual memory?
14:15:31 <b_jonas> that sounds rather strange
14:15:52 <b_jonas> unix has had virtual memory from the very start
14:16:10 <b_jonas> and linux started out on 386, so it would be able to use paging
14:20:54 <Deewiant> From 1993: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.folklore.computers/QKFqK4AbjUk
14:23:29 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:23:57 -!- Melvar has joined.
14:24:29 <fizzie> b_jonas: The Wikipedia text is not claiming older Linux versions didn't support virtual memory, it's claiming older Unix systems didn't (and thus had a "unix"/"vmunix" distinction), and Linux just derived "vmlinux" from "vmunix".
14:25:10 <fizzie> s/older Unix systems/*some* &/ I guess.
14:32:45 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:44:38 -!- sdfgsdf has joined.
14:45:55 -!- jaboja has joined.
14:53:40 -!- `^_^v has joined.
14:57:59 -!- Guest69425 has changed nick to Bowserinator.
14:58:03 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host).
14:58:03 -!- Bowserinator has joined.
15:02:57 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:03:23 -!- Melvar has joined.
15:23:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. even then it's strange.
15:24:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: I mean, unix started out as a time-sharing system that swapped out the entire address space of the process to disk each time it switched to another process
15:25:06 <b_jonas> I know there's such things as minix, but still.
15:47:51 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:48:21 -!- Melvar has joined.
15:50:26 <int-e> > unwords . transpose . words $ "twm hoi rrx ede esd"
15:57:44 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:58:11 -!- Melvar has joined.
16:15:50 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:15:56 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:16:25 -!- Melvar has joined.
16:38:40 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:09:56 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
17:10:54 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Client Quit).
17:54:53 -!- jaboja has joined.
18:12:19 -!- laerling has joined.
18:18:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:56:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Simplemaker * New user account
19:14:13 -!- sleffy has joined.
19:24:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:32:36 -!- sprocklem has joined.
19:37:41 <int-e> b_jonas: so Tom's "anagraph problem" is really the standard word problem for finitely presented monoids... and after 5 minutes I'm at the point where I resent the fact that it's hard to skim videos.
19:39:24 <int-e> err, the kerning problem is that; the anagraph problem is a bidirectional variant of petri nets
19:41:25 <int-e> (The word problem in a finitely presented commutative monoid, but that doesn't help with decidability; the Petri net angle does.)
19:46:43 -!- sleffy has joined.
19:52:29 -!- honigkuchen has joined.
19:52:41 -!- honigkuchen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:54:53 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:55:07 -!- `^_^v has joined.
19:57:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:16:03 <int-e> And simplifying further, there's a connection to Gröbner bases and Buchberger's algorithm. Yay.
20:17:32 <int-e> b_jonas: So I agree that the appeal to linear logic is overkill. But if you have that hammer...
20:19:56 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:21:31 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:24:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:27:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
20:27:32 <wob_jonas> int-e: the anagraph problem is for *commutative* monoids. the kerning problem is for monoids.
20:27:52 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:27:53 <int-e> wob_jonas: I corrected myself already
20:29:00 <int-e> Petri net states can be thought of as multisets of locations; each transition takes a multiset to another one (so it's a directed equation).
20:29:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: for the non-commutative case, the kerning problem, I was wondering if you could reduce the word problem on finitely presented groups to it to prove it's not algorithmically solvable. that way you'd get the exact variant, not the infix variant tom7 baited to.
20:29:21 <wob_jonas> I think it's possible, but I'm not sure.
20:29:21 <int-e> And reachability for Petri nets is decidable.
20:30:32 <wob_jonas> int-e: hammer is one thing, but he starts the video by saying he's trying to present this stuff to people without much background, so it's really a cop-out.
20:31:30 <int-e> you need extra equations for dealing with all the inverses and the unit, e.g. 1a = a = a1, 1 = a(a^-1) = (a^-1)a, where a^-1 is a new symbol for each letter a.
20:31:42 <int-e> but then you can use Matiseyevitchs'
20:32:01 <int-e> ... I wanted to google, not press return
20:33:44 <int-e> (because I know that I keep mixing up people)
20:35:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: the ones for the inverses are easy. you don't need anything special for the units. it's the free conjugation that you need for a group that needs more tricky rules thouhg.
20:36:02 <int-e> Matiyasevich is the name, but apparently he's just the one who used the fewest relations so far (namely, 3) for a semigroup with undecidable word problem. http://www.wolframscience.com/nks/notes-12-8--word-problems/
20:37:06 <wob_jonas> As in, the word has to be treated as if it was cyclic, you have to be able to move a letter from front to back.
20:37:36 * int-e isn't sure whether Tom allows empty strings (so talking of monoids isn't accurate, they're just semigroups)
20:38:16 <int-e> I didn't look at the first video. The linear logic construction will have trouble with empty strings.
20:38:46 <wob_jonas> Besides, he's a mathematician (just not a good maths educator), of course he allows empty strings.
20:38:50 <int-e> a --o [what goes here?]
20:39:30 <int-e> that's not a thing in linear logic? or is it just something that he mentioned and that I missed?
20:39:47 * int-e admittedly wasn't very attentive.
20:40:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah, you mean linear logic, and the --o is a lollipop? I thought it was an abbreviated long option, gnu style
20:40:24 <int-e> yes, it was meant to be a lollipop
20:41:14 <int-e> `learn Communication is hard if it involves more than one person.
20:41:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'communication': Communication is hard if it involves more than one person.
20:44:14 * int-e notes that Matiyasevich's example *is* a semigroup already, so inverses won't cause problems at all.
20:55:03 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
21:11:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
21:30:57 -!- idris-bot has joined.
21:39:04 -!- sprocklem has joined.
22:09:35 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:10:25 -!- sleffy has joined.
22:12:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
22:12:58 <wob_jonas> Wow! Finally a webpage where the language links don't just take you to the top level page in a different language, but to the translation of the same page you are viewing. What a nice relief after all the stupid webpages that don't do that. http://www.nationalparksofsweden.se
22:19:28 -!- augur has joined.
22:25:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
22:51:00 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:53:14 -!- moony has joined.
23:03:02 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:04:09 -!- adu has joined.
23:14:26 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:27:40 -!- boily has joined.
23:31:27 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:35:53 <int-e> Yay, Minsky machines *can* do primitive recursion.
23:36:19 <\oren\> the population of earth in 1950 was only about 2.5 billion!?!?!?!?
23:36:46 <boily> int-ello. isn't that the same as a for loop?
23:37:11 <boily> ヘ＼＼オレン＼. superexponential growth!
23:38:10 <int-e> boily: well, yes, but the details are cumbersome. http://downthetypehole.de/paste/So5kdG0C
23:40:36 <int-e> (In total I have 600 lines of Isabelle theory now...)
23:41:07 <int-e> (Building on top of an existing formalization of primitive recursive (and recursive) functions.)
23:44:45 <int-e> boily: Would you believe that I'm doing this mostly for fun right now?
23:46:17 <int-e> boily: at least the underlying definition isn't so bad: http://downthetypehole.de/paste/xsuC8D36
23:47:56 <int-e> (That's Minsky machine + semantics, i.e., the corresponding state transitions. They can be non-deterministic, but I only talk about deterministic ones.)
23:51:03 -!- adu has joined.
23:52:32 -!- moony has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:52:58 -!- moony has joined.
23:58:23 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:59:01 -!- fungot has joined.
23:59:26 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WITNESS CHICKEN).