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01:27:50 <HackEgo> olist 1113: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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01:42:44 <Cale> shachaf: You know, I've not really put much thought into infinitary tensor products, but maybe?
01:43:22 <shachaf> Is there a standard notion of the inverse of a tensor? I don't remember if I asked.
01:44:00 <Cale> I think you'd have to say exactly what you mean in any case.
01:44:52 <APic> Captain: What You say !!
01:44:58 <Cale> When the tensor can be regarded somehow as a linear map between some spaces that happen to be isomorphic, then you can talk about the inverse :)
01:45:28 <shachaf> People talk about the inverse Hessian, for example.
01:45:28 <APic> Good old Wormholes. ;)
01:45:38 <Cale> Ah, well, they're thinking of it as a matrix usually.
01:46:08 <shachaf> If the Hessian is a (0,2) tensor : V -o (V -o F), you can say the inverse Hessian is a (2,0) tensor : (V -o F) -o F mapping covectors to vectors.
01:46:12 <Cale> Yeah, at least, it's a little unnatural (if notationally convenient) to think of it that way
01:46:14 <APic> Ghost in the Shell >> Matrix
01:47:47 <shachaf> If the Hessian is H^i^j, the inverse Hessian is some G_i_j such that H^i_j G_j_k = 1^i_k
01:48:05 <shachaf> In what cases is this sort of thing defined? Potentially for every tensor of even rank?
01:48:16 <APic> Right^W^W^WWait…
01:49:21 <Cale> shachaf: You could even talk about contracting multiple indices maybe?
01:49:45 <shachaf> Cale: Well, I wanted the answer to come out numerically to the same thing as inverting the Hessian matrix. :-)
01:50:20 <Cale> But yes, the stuff you said about the Hessian specifically is right.
01:50:45 <Cale> I'm not sure what the right way to generalise would be
01:51:14 <Cale> You're perhaps looking at Newton's method?
01:51:20 <shachaf> If you have f(x) = A + B(x) + C(x,x), then f'(x)(dx) = B(dx) + 2C(x,dx). The critical points of f are those x such that B(dx) + 2C(x, dx) = 0 for all dx
01:51:44 <shachaf> Which you can solve using this inverse Hessian by contracting one index. Right?
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01:58:39 <Cale> I'm not sure that I understand yet... let's write what the Hessian is here...
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02:04:31 <Cale> shachaf: ah, so you're saying basically we invert C itself, pretty much
02:04:55 <Cale> (well, C reimagined as a linear map)
02:05:29 <Cale> yeah, yeah, I see
02:05:37 <shachaf> There are various ways to reimagine C. But mapping covectors to vectors seems pretty natural.
02:05:52 <Cale> I feel like we need slightly better notation
02:06:19 <Cale> Differential geometry is the study of smooth manifolds under change of notation ;)
02:06:43 <shachaf> @remember Cale Differential geometry is the study of smooth manifolds under change of notation ;)
02:06:44 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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02:06:56 <shachaf> Wait, do we addquote or remember in here?
02:07:27 <shachaf> `addquote <Cale> Differential geometry is the study of smooth manifolds under change of notation ;)
02:07:29 <HackEgo> 1321) <Cale> Differential geometry is the study of smooth manifolds under change of notation ;)
02:08:18 <shachaf> I was doing this using Einstein/index notation earlier.
02:09:53 <APic> shachaf: Please stop what?
02:15:33 <boily> this quote just lacks a just to be just just.
02:16:04 <APic> That does not answer my Question.
02:16:52 <shachaf> I meant please stop spamming the channel and being annoying.
02:17:54 <boily> spam spam spam spam ♪
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02:58:20 <shachaf> Cale: By the way, a tensor is "really" sometething like V⊗V⊗V⊗V -o V⅋V⅋V , right?
02:58:44 <shachaf> Is there some variant of linear algebra that distinguishes between ⊗ and ⅋?
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03:02:01 <Cale> not as far as I know
03:02:41 <Cale> Also, it's unclear. Usually I would just say a tensor is an element of a tensor product space.
03:02:51 <Cale> They needn't all be V
03:03:52 <Cale> The fact that vector spaces of the same dimension are isomorphic means that it's kind of a matter of perspective
03:04:08 <shachaf> Anyway linear logic distinguishes between tensor and par even if linear algebra doesn't.
03:04:17 <Cale> (also the fact that linear maps themselves form a vector space which is naturally a tensor product)
03:04:44 <shachaf> The game semantics interpretation of linear logic is too good, by the way.
03:06:40 <Cale> Ask Dan Haraj about ludics and other Girard memes
03:08:02 <shachaf> Last seen : Nov 21 15:17:45 2017 (13w 0d 11h ago)
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03:11:54 <Cale> I don't think he IRCs very much, sadly.
03:12:48 <esowiki> [[GPRX 3000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54161&oldid=46843 * Oerjan * (+751) Turing complete
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03:57:50 <HackEgo> [U+004B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K] [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+004E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N] [U+0043 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C] [U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P] [U+0059 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y] [U+004B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K] [U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T] [U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTE
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06:25:40 <esowiki> [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54162&oldid=50938 * Challenger5 * (+61)
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06:53:14 <esowiki> [[Momema]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54163 * Challenger5 * (+654) Add page
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07:16:10 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54164&oldid=53312 * Challenger5 * (+3291)
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10:53:07 <esowiki> [[Entfedern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54165&oldid=30915 * Zseri * (+38) +OOP
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10:59:08 <esowiki> [[Entfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54166&oldid=54165 * Zseri * (-4) /* Partial definition of variables */
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11:41:01 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54167&oldid=54123 * Truttle1 * (+106)
11:41:15 <esowiki> [[Uyjhmn n]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54168&oldid=54167 * Truttle1 * (+1)
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12:16:32 <HackEgo> 1/2:warning//Warnings indicate when you are doing something dangerous, like using operator precedence. \ sgeolang//Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place. \ star wars//Star Wars was a missile defence system invented by Ronald Reagan. With it, he managed to destroy the Soviet Union, then rode into the sunset. \
12:16:34 <HackEgo> 2/2:tachyon//The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its speed. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up. \ sparkle//Sparkles are annoying visual artifacts that people try to use deliberately for decoration and artistic photographs and drawings.
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12:29:26 <esowiki> [[Ende]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54169&oldid=54140 * Zseri * (+1) /* Prototype hierarchy */
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12:32:13 <int-e> @tell oerjan I didn't make up the name (unless you count mistyping H as N). Google will confirm :)
12:42:03 <esowiki> [[Ende]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54170&oldid=54169 * Zseri * (+38) link to sve
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13:40:58 <esowiki> [[Talk talk:Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54171&oldid=36169 * Camto * (+128) Other spambot
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16:22:50 <wob_jonas> ``` dowg sparkle # wait, is that mine?
16:22:59 <HackEgo> 7037:2016-02-28 <b_jonäs> slashlearn sparkle/Sparkles are annoying visual artifacts that people try to use deliberately for decoration and artistic photographs and drawings. \ 7036:2016-02-28 <b_jonäs> slashlearn sparkle/Sparkles are annoying visual artifacts that people try to use for decoration and artistic photographs and drawings.
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18:16:47 <__Myst__> How come the wiki's featured language has been brainfuck for months?
18:17:38 <int-e> nobody complained?
18:18:02 <int-e> And perhaps the powers that be have been distracted.
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21:04:37 <wob_jonas> __Myst__: it's been the featured language for about five years. making something a featured language is hard work that few people are ready to do. also, ais523 is the most dedicated to improve the wiki, but he has conflict of interest with making underload and intercal, which are among the best candidates for featured language
21:10:35 <__Myst__> wob_jonas: if this has been an issue for five years, why hasn't a poll system been put in place or something different that takes the workload off of you?
21:11:53 <wob_jonas> __Myst__: it's hard work and nobody cares enough about it. seriously. that part of the wiki is just not important.
21:13:20 <__Myst__> wob_jonas: what do you mean by it being hard work? i don't comprehend
21:13:27 <wob_jonas> the wiki is in large part an outlet where people can put their bad esolang inventions, the ones that nobody care about and would either never get documented if the wiki didn't exist, but the point is, it helps us meet like-minded people on this channel, or occasionally elsewhere if they really don't want to join IRC
21:14:56 <wob_jonas> the featured language doesn't matter, if you want to know what languages people care about, then just stay on the channel and you'll find which ones come up often in the conversations.
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22:04:21 <wob_jonas> __Myst__: part of the problem is that a language can realistically get featured only if two people active on the wiki care about it enough to actively understand the language and write a good article about it. If it's only one person on the wiki who cares enough about the language to write about it, then it will seem a bit self-promoting to push it to featured.
22:04:26 <wob_jonas> And honestly, most languages don't have two people on this small community to care enough about it to actually do work about it. Brainfuck, befunge, and bfjoust have multiple people, so those are realistic featured languages.
22:04:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: the wiki article on Incident says it's not proven to be Turing-complete. haven't you actually proved it Turing-complete with oerjan's help since that was written?
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22:52:58 <HackEgo> olist (1113): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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23:00:25 <shachaf> boily: this list has already been listed tdnh
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