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00:19:02 <fizzie> Heh, I have this thing that uses nanopb, and somehow managed to get it built so that the nanopb type definitions are different in different parts of the code.
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01:04:19 <lambdabot> ENVA 260050Z 14010KT CAVOK M12/M17 Q1042 RMK WIND 670FT 11011KT
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01:15:16 <oerjan> <boily> it's extremely uncommon that I read logs... <-- shocking
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01:18:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: just so you know, the IOCCC deadline got extended to 2018-03-15
01:18:45 <boily> random question: anybody here playing pixel dungeon?
01:19:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: nice to hear
01:19:45 <ais523> I have some ideas but not the time to enact them
01:20:15 <ais523> I started this back at the /previous/ IOCCC :_P
01:21:03 <wob_jonas> and I have an idea for an esolang that I should make once. I started inventing it in the summer.
01:21:33 <ais523> The Waterfall Model is frustrating me
01:21:36 * boily is intrigued by wob_jonas
01:21:38 <ais523> because I'm trying to golf it
01:21:47 <ais523> but it seems to need a lot of waterclocks to get anywhere
01:22:33 <wob_jonas> is that the esolang with the salmons?
01:22:43 <ais523> no, you're thinking of HOMESPRING
01:22:48 <ais523> it's a new one I wrote
01:23:04 <ais523> which is a simplification of several other esolangs I've been working on which were already fairly simple
01:23:22 <ais523> it's been on the wiki for a while now though (a week or so I think)
01:23:42 <ais523> 9 February, so more than a week
01:24:35 <ais523> incidentally, a fun programming problem that almost came up at work: how do you compare two numbers in Java?
01:24:42 <ais523> it is much, much harder than you'd expect
01:25:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: because you have to implement a correct integer vs float comparison, right?
01:26:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: a lot of interpreters mess that up, and it can cause really ugly bugs whenever you're trying to sort an array or have a dictionary or anything like that, even segfaults for some sorting algorithms that assume a consistent comparison
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01:26:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's worse, Number in Java can refer to any of the standard numerical types (int, float, long, etc.) or bignums
01:26:55 <ais523> and none of them have comparison routines that work with any of the others
01:27:06 <wob_jonas> sqlite3 used to mess it up so you could cause index corruption and incorrect results (but not segfaults afaik) until I reported it
01:27:14 <ais523> in fact, the only simple way I'm aware of to compare them for equality is to convert them both to strings first
01:27:28 <ais523> and that's restricted to the integral types
01:28:04 <ais523> Integer.valueOf(4).equals(Long.valueOf(4)) will return false, IIRC
01:28:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you need the comparison to be as fast as possible, or is something that could be ten times slower acceptible?
01:29:03 <wob_jonas> wait, bignums too? that makes it harder
01:29:18 <ais523> it needs to be fast in this context, I fixed it by requiring each number to be stored in the shortest type in which it fit
01:29:20 <wob_jonas> bigint only, or also bigfloats, or something else?
01:29:40 <ais523> apparently X.509 certificate serial numbers are bignums, which surprised me and strikes me as a bad idea
01:29:47 <shachaf> Someone pointed out a bug in the Google Voice Android app recently where if you send an SMS message that can be parsed as a floating point, it'll be parsed and normalized.
01:30:07 <shachaf> So for example "00123" will be sent as "123", and "1.2e6" will be sent as "1200000"
01:30:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that perhaps because they're bigger than what fits in a long (which is 64 bits or something)
01:30:32 <shachaf> What a bizarre bug in a program designed to send strings from one person to another.
01:30:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: AFAICT the original standards don't specify any maximum value, and use an encoding that can store arbitrarily large values
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01:31:02 <ais523> shachaf: they're probably using some general-purpose serialiser that tries to guess the data type from the string it receives
01:31:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ah, is that like when someone types a telephone number into an Excel spreadsheet and it gets interprted as a double and displayed in exponential format?
01:31:13 <ais523> rather than a typed one which knows it's sending strings
01:31:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's technically correct, though, string-valued cells in Excel are supposed to start with '
01:31:49 <ais523> but it adds it implicitly if you forget it and the string doesn't look like a number
01:31:52 <ais523> so most people don't bother
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01:34:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: anyway, even comparing an int64 to a float64 correctly is tricky. if you can also have bignums, that's even worse.
01:34:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but there's some version differences, the magics work differently in more recent Excels
01:34:56 <wob_jonas> I don't quite understand how it works now really
01:35:04 <ATMunn> i kinda want to make an esolang
01:37:07 <wob_jonas> in traditional Excel, if you start with single quote or double you get a string with everything in the formula taken literally, single vs double determines the alignment; if you start with an equals or plus or minus you get a formula; if you start with anything else you get an automatic guess, which is also the tersest way to enter a date.
01:37:47 <wob_jonas> in modern Excel, somehow how the formula is interpreted depends on the number format of the cell, and sometimes neither single quote nor double quote works, and I don't understand how the whole thing is supposed to work in the first place,
01:39:34 <wob_jonas> and also people say that when you import a csv into modern Excel, although you can tell whether it should try to interpret things that look like number or date as such or as a string; you can't tell it not to interpret things that start with an equals sign or plus or minus or at-sign as a formula, so you can't safely import an untrusted csv with Ex
01:39:56 <wob_jonas> I seriously don't understand how any of this thing works anymore
01:40:08 <wob_jonas> Excel used to be simple, there used to be only one brand of it, the MS one, and it worked
01:41:04 <wob_jonas> that's why at some point I made the conjecture that every software keeps improving until version number pi, then it keeps getting worse and worse; I've seen counterexamples since, but Excel isn't one
01:42:13 <ais523> Firefox has kind-of oscillated
01:43:05 <ais523> (also, NetHack 3.4 is better than NetHack 3.2)
01:43:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's OK, the first version after pi can be better or worse than the first version after pi
01:44:03 <wob_jonas> it's just starting to go down between the two of them, but you can't observe that if there's no numbered releases
01:45:06 <ais523> well 3.2 and 3.4 are both greater than pi
01:45:40 <wob_jonas> then yes, that's one of the many counterexamples
01:46:18 <ais523> I'm not surprised that patterns like this exist though
01:46:46 <wob_jonas> nah, I made that conjecture from entirely too few samples
01:46:54 <ais523> in many projects (at least mine), version 1 is broken but works well enough to be usable, version 2 is very low on bugs but unusable due to being overengineered, version 3 is a compromise, version 4 is vaporware
01:46:58 <wob_jonas> even back then I could have noticed counterexamples
01:47:26 <ais523> aimake is the standard for this pattern
01:48:22 <ais523> this unfortunately doesn't bode well for libuncursed2 :-(
01:48:29 <ais523> but I have to write it first to determine why it isn't usable
01:52:15 <ais523> recently, when I've been programming, I've pretty much entirely just been doing my day job
01:52:29 <ais523> I guess I needed a break from hobby programming for a few weeks
01:53:08 <wob_jonas> where the dayjob is still compilers?
01:56:31 <ais523> it's related to language implementation, yes
02:00:13 <shachaf> So I have a slightly better idea of what the "type" of dx in an expression like dy = 3x^2 dx is.
02:04:52 <shachaf> ais523: Were you the person doing substructural types?
02:05:15 <ais523> shachaf: I worked with affine typing, which IIRC is a special case of substructural typing?
02:05:19 <shachaf> Recently I decided that the game semantics interpretation of linear logic is one of the best ones.
02:05:28 <ais523> it was a while back now, I forget the exact definition of "substructural"
02:05:36 <ais523> and yes, game semantics was heavily involved
02:06:20 <shachaf> For affine typing? What were you doing?
02:06:43 <ais523> compiling call-by-name languages to hardware
02:07:08 <ais523> the various moves of the game semantics were encoded as bit patterns on wires
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02:22:28 <wob_jonas> Is there some well-known computation model where a one-tape Turing machine is extended by a disk oracle, so that machine can call for reading or writing a symbol on the disk in a single step if it first writes its address to the tape (so the disk is random access for timing),
02:23:03 <wob_jonas> and the disk is infinitely large, so the address can be arbitrarily long, and has to be delimited by a particular tape symbol (so you have at least three tape symbols: zero, one, delimiter)?
02:23:41 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random-access_Turing_machine ?
02:24:38 <wob_jonas> although that one only reads the disk
02:24:44 <wob_jonas> I definitely want to be able to write the disk too
02:25:02 <wob_jonas> some of the other details are negotiable, but I need writing
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02:26:20 <wob_jonas> so that the program is able to store an arbitrarily large amount of data on the disk and access it in time only logarithmic in the amount of data stored
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02:27:07 <shachaf> There seem to be other models of random-access Turing machines that include writing.
02:27:15 <shachaf> I don't know whether there's a standard one.
02:27:16 <wob_jonas> I want to use something like this as a reduction to show that my esolang is powerful enough to simluate a RAM machine, or a pointer machine with logarithmic slowdown
02:27:38 <wob_jonas> because I can't simulate a pointer machine directly without using addresses on a disk
02:28:07 <wob_jonas> I prefer pointer machines, but I need an intermediate step like this in this case
02:31:08 <wob_jonas> if there isn't a well-known one, then I'll just define such a model and prove myself that a pointer machine can be reduced to it
02:32:17 <wob_jonas> but I'm hoping there's some well-known RAM model like htis
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02:47:33 <boily> fungot: any idea where the HackEgo is?
02:47:33 <fungot> boily: i don't think so
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02:57:45 <fizzie> @tell boily The system is back up, I think it's just gotten stuck. Yeah, there's a 100%-CPU socat process again. I'll try to give it a kick.
03:02:42 <fizzie> Hmm. "fopen: Read-only file system"
03:04:22 <fizzie> http://ix.io/PDl that doesn't look terribly good.
03:05:48 <fizzie> I could try restarting it, I guess.
03:06:24 <fizzie> (Of course it's possible it might not come back up.)
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03:12:26 <fizzie> There were a few filesystem errors, but I'm sure the files weren't important.
03:13:20 <HackEgo> 1/2:itidus19//itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly \ cipation//A cipation is an evil scheme that only works if no one is prepared for it. \ russia//Russia is a country so huge it manages to be so near to both Finland and Japan. It used to be part of the Soviet Union before Ronald Reagan destroyed it. \ inverness//Inverness is a ci
03:13:35 <HackEgo> 2/2:ty in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative. \ firefly//FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
03:13:39 <shachaf> oerjan: should `6 x run x five times and then show the second line twh
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03:44:25 <HackEgo> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty kind "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud punster is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
03:44:44 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after ‘bin/wrjan bin/owrjan’ \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
03:44:55 <shachaf> `` mv bin/wrjan bin/owrjan
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04:20:36 <zzo38> I have seen they thought computer design is too much complicated so they decided instead to make one from Subleq. I also thought computer design too much complicated and would make a more simpler one, although, mine is different. I would probably to based on a variant of MMIX: PRELD and PREGO and SYNCID and SYNCD is now same as SWYM, LDUNC is now same as LDO, STUNC is now same as STO, and a few instructions are replaced with new ones: LDVTS, PREST
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04:23:16 <zzo38> SYNC may act like SWYM, or possibly, depend on the bits somehow such that if the XYZ value is 0 to 3 it acts like SWYM but otherwise it might not. PREST may be something that writes to those addresses or fakes it, since any existing program that uses PREST will not care what data is there before it writes there again. LDVTS will be some entirely new kind of instruction, nothing to do with virtual memory.
04:24:17 <zzo38> TRAP will still call the operating system, although the mechanism for doing so might differ. Some of the special registers only used by the operating system, as well as rN, may be altered. The other special registers used by user code will remain same as normal MMIX, though.
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04:46:32 <zzo38> (TRIP would still work the same way as normal MMIX, though.)
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05:20:17 <zzo38> One chess variant is "Pole Chess". The Pole moves to any vacant cell, and can neither capture nor be captured. Initially the Pole is not on the board, but can be placed on any vacant cell as a move; it can then teleport on later turns.
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07:56:43 <zzo38> Many old Arabian chess problems have the feature that you have to give check during every turn, which is now a feature of Japanese problems.
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10:19:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: PREGO being the same as SWYM is a very bad idea. x86 does that for compatibility with the original 386, but it requires a ton of expensive circuits to detect self-modifying code and flush like four different kinds of code caches whenever it happens.
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12:21:11 <HackEgo> 1/2:astronomy//Astronomy is the study of stars, such as Julia Child and Gordon Ramsay, typically through long-distance viewing devices. Despite the name, it does not involve the study of the astrointestinal tract. \ `help//`help [<command>] gives HackEgo's default help message, or help for a specific command. Or currently possibly some other wi
12:21:12 <HackEgo> 2/2:sdom. \ narutoverse//narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1. Sgeo drives the bus. \ e//e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ web access//Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
12:21:37 <lambdabot> fizzie said 9h 23m 52s ago: The system is back up, I think it's just gotten stuck. Yeah, there's a 100%-CPU socat process again. I'll try to give it a kick.
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12:31:35 <int-e> I thought the 100%-CPU socat bug was fixed (on debian stable which is what lambdabot is on...)
12:36:16 <int-e> @tell fizzie afair, the infinite loop in socat was fixed in socat 1.7.3.0. (the latest version seems to be 1.7.3.1)
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13:50:18 <HackEgo> 13:50:17 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
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13:51:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pom: not found
13:51:11 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
13:51:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
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13:51:20 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ `^ \ `̀ \ ^.^ \ ! \ ? \ ?? \ ¿ \ ' \ " \ ( \ @ \ * \ # \ ؟ \ ⁗ \ \ \ \ welcome \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 7z \ 7za \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ analogy \
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15:34:45 <fizzie> int-e: Oh yes, I think we discussed that.
15:35:38 <fizzie> int-e: It's "1.7.2.4+sigfix" on the HackEgo chroot, which I really should update at some point.
15:36:04 <fizzie> int-e: (I think we speculated that the "+sigfix" might've meant backporting that fix, but not sure if I ever investigated really.)
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16:09:45 <esowiki> [[User:Enoua5]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54241&oldid=52209 * Enoua5 * (-346)
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16:20:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54242&oldid=54235 * Soaku * (+217) /* Introductions */
16:20:39 <esowiki> [[Pepe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54243 * Soaku * (+519) Created page with "[https://github.com/Soaku/Pepe Pepe] is a programming language inspired by the Pepe meme made by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/72792/ PPCG user Soaku]. It operate..."
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17:31:14 <zzo38> If there are no code caches then it is the same. If you do have code caches then obviously it is not the same.
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17:42:33 <zzo38> (That is what I mean)
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18:06:19 <zseri> zsync error: failed to retrieve from https://esolangs.org/dump/esolang.xml.gz
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20:14:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Robgero * New user account
20:18:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54244&oldid=54242 * Robgero * (+188) /* Introductions */
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20:27:08 <fizzie> @tell zseri Hmm, that's not very informative as far as errors go. But it might be some sort of a HTTPS issue.
20:29:22 <fizzie> Judging from http://ix.io/PWl
20:30:26 <fizzie> Not sure what's up with that, wget/curl have no problems downloading from the HTTPS path.
20:36:34 <esowiki> [[The Code of the Seven]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54245 * Robgero * (+935) Created page with "Before computers, the Gods were speaking code. Code that not even Three-Eyed Raven could understand. They called it the code of the seven. However, thankfully, after her untim..."
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20:46:35 <esowiki> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54246&oldid=54245 * Robgero * (+50)
20:58:50 <esowiki> [[The Code of the Seven]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54247&oldid=54246 * Robgero * (+137)
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22:50:57 <lambdabot> LOWI 262220Z AUTO 07003KT 360V130 9999 FEW050 BKN060 M10/M17 Q1014
22:51:27 <boily> isn't it unusually cold?
22:51:55 <int-e> yeah, it's been a topic in the news
22:52:12 <lambdabot> KOAK 262153Z 28017KT 10SM FEW020 12/04 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP138 T01170044
22:52:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Darkness3840 * New user account
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22:53:13 <int-e> Germany too. https://www.thelocal.de/20180221/cold-snap-lows-of-20c-set-to-hit-germany-at-weekend
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22:53:43 <int-e> "The reason for the cold snap is that a strong current from the north and northeast is on its way, bringing with it bitterly cold air from Finland, Sweden and Russia."
22:54:02 <int-e> (But not Norway? Funny.)
22:54:12 <lambdabot> EGLL 262220Z AUTO 04007KT 010V070 9999 FEW029 M02/M06 Q1029
22:54:15 <lambdabot> ENVA 262220Z 12010KT CAVOK M14/M18 Q1046 RMK WIND 670FT 10012KT
22:55:36 <lambdabot> EFHK 262250Z 04015KT 9999 FEW028 BKN055 M16/M20 Q1037 NOSIG
22:56:03 <lambdabot> UHWW 262230Z 32003MPS 4300 -SHSN BKN026CB M13/M17 Q1026 R25L/0///70 NOSIG RMK QFE768
23:02:40 <fizzie> News here: "Temperatures of minus 5C (23F) over the weekend were the lowest recorded in the week leading up to 1 March, the first day of spring, since 1986."
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23:02:47 <fizzie> "The wind chill, which could make parts of the UK feel as cold as minus 15C (5F), will create temperatures that rival the forecast for parts of northern Norway and Iceland."
23:02:56 <fizzie> They're making a big deal out of it.
23:03:32 <fizzie> (Also there were a few snowflakes in the air today. And probably more coming tomorrow.)
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23:04:21 <fizzie> "Heavy snow and freezing conditions are expected along the east coast of the UK and south-east England, causing disruption on the roads, railways and in the air, as the “beast from the east” envelops the British Isles."
23:05:26 <int-e> beast from the east... let me guess... this alludes to the cold war.
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23:06:09 <int-e> (way too obvious pun)
23:07:47 <fizzie> Apparently it's either a Russian "politician and former professional boxer", or "a live album recorded by the American heavy metal band Dokken in Japan in April 1988".
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23:14:31 <HackEgo> 1/2:beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files. \ drone//Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times. \ mark//A mark of one's destiny singled out alone, fulfilled. \ ping//Ping is a Peking Duck
23:15:26 <HackEgo> 2/2:H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout. \ bicyclic monoid//The bicyclic monoid is the free monoid generated by two wheels of a bicycle, quotiented by the restriction that the bicycle itself is equal to the identity.
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23:19:01 <HackEgo> 1/2:744) <oklopol> Gregor: i watched the first episode of MLP [...] <oklopol> Gregor: it wasn't bad, but there was very little sex and violence \ 933) <Taneb> I'm a story about the prohibition of chocolate \ 1125) <fizzie> Every time I end up on an audiophile web-crawl I get this feeling maybe we should just get rid of ears in general. \ 1169) <ell
23:19:05 <HackEgo> 2/2:iott_> you win this round. <elliott_> your prize is hosting the wiki <fizzie> I don't like this game show. \ 1235) <rdococ> what? I just wanted a laugh... lol <rdococ> I need to stop using lol, lol <olsner> just stop then, hth
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23:27:37 <wob_jonas> I was testing what happens if I plug together various mobile phones or other small devices into various chargers or the computer with various USB cables, to figure out which combinations let the phone or small device charge, and which ones allow data communication with the computer.
23:27:56 <wob_jonas> After like ten minutes I realized the switch on the power strip was off, which is why most of the combos weren't working.
23:29:49 <wob_jonas> It's not trivial to notice because my primary phone doesn't charge from USB at all, it can only be charged with its round plug charger.
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23:40:45 <boily> wellob_jonas. round plug?
23:41:39 <fizzie> I think the proper word is "coaxial power connector".
23:42:04 <boily> wob_jonas has a BNC plug on his phone???
23:42:46 <wob_jonas> boily: a much thinner coaxial plug
23:43:19 <fizzie> "A coaxial power connector is an electrical power connector used for attaching extra-low voltage devices such as consumer electronics to external electricity. Also known as barrel connectors, concentric barrel connectors or tip connectors, these small cylindrical connectors come in an enormous variety of sizes."
23:43:27 <fizzie> As it says, there's an enormous variety of sizes.
23:43:50 <wob_jonas> you know, one of these thin DC coax plugs where the male side is on where the power is supplied, one connector is inside, the other is outside a cylinder
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