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05:57:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54287 * Oerjan * (+1891) Full Minsky machine
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09:13:19 <variable> time to design something based on a merkle tree
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12:05:58 <myname> while on our operating system course, two students and i thought about making IPC in our OS via blockchain, because why the fuck not
12:08:24 <myname> i am quite unsure wether brainchain or blockfuck would be a better name for a blockchained brainfuck
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13:08:44 <alercah> myname: you may be interested in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:10:12 <myname> well, that's why i'm here
13:11:02 <alercah> Oh, I thought this was a different channel.
13:21:23 <myname> still looking for ideas for a master thesis, though
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16:02:27 <zzo38> I made a repository of the files for Free Hero Mesh so far it is http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/dir?ci=tip It is not yet completed, but is there in case someone may wish to make comments/complaints of it please.
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19:00:04 <ais523> b_jonas: so I think we can't use Wild Cantor as there's no way to bring its toughness up to 3 without changing its creature type (the problem is that in order to trigger a Hungry Lynx to put +1/+1 counters on it, we'd need to sacrifice another creature, but we only have one Wild Cantor and we can't make a token of it because the opponent could just sacrifie the token)
19:00:25 <ais523> however there are other similar creatures with higher toughness, e.g. Composite Golem, which we can use instead
19:00:28 <ais523> `card-by-name Composite Golem
19:00:29 <HackEgo> Composite Golem \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 4/4 \ Sacrifice Composite Golem: Add {W}{U}{B}{R}{G} to your mana pool. \ 5DN-U, 10E-U
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19:03:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: that makes sense (replace Wild Cantor with larger toughness creature)
19:03:20 <ais523> 9 cards: CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Composite Golem, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities
19:03:51 <ais523> and the change shouldn't affect anything else other than it now doesn't die to -2/-2 effects
19:04:00 <ais523> (which we need to kill the token that's serving as the clock)
19:05:28 <ais523> actually, noxious ghoul is an etb trigger, not death trigger, so in theory we could trigger it with a different creature to get the +1/+1 counters on the Cantor, but just switching to something with ≥3 toughness is so much simpler
19:05:34 <wob_jonas> and yes, Composite Golem is a bit unusual. I've seen that creature because it's in tenth ed, but I wouldn't have been able to list any mana-producing creature with toughness over 2, because they're impractical
19:06:14 <wob_jonas> (Except Joraga Treespeaker, but that doesn't work)
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19:06:55 <wob_jonas> yes, but that doesn't help, you wanted a mana ability so you can start the loop while a split second spell is on the stack
19:06:59 <ais523> `card-by-name carven caryatid
19:07:01 <HackEgo> Carven Caryatid \ 1GG \ Creature -- Spirit \ 2/5 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ When Carven Caryatid enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ RAV-U
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19:07:17 <ais523> there was some well-known expensive mana elf with high toughness
19:07:23 <ais523> but it doesn't sacrifice, like the Golem does
19:07:36 <wob_jonas> I know several with 2 toughness, they just don't get much play
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19:09:53 <ais523> I haven't had any ideas for saving a further card from the combo
19:10:58 <wob_jonas> that doesn't bother me as much as that we still don't know if there's a small enough Amnesiac machine for turing-completeness
19:11:17 <wob_jonas> there probably is, but actually finding one will be hard
19:11:38 <wob_jonas> just an encoding of the Collatz problem or similar would probably fit
19:12:09 <wob_jonas> and that's what you'd want in the tournament setting, because it's simpler than explaining ten levels of reduction for why your crazy machine is Turing-complete
19:12:26 <wob_jonas> but I'd like a Turing-completeness proof for outside the tournament setting
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19:12:59 <wob_jonas> and I think if you try to transform that fractran machine with the easy reductions, it will get too large
19:14:17 <ais523> Collatz actually doesn't work
19:14:23 <ais523> you can't brute-force it
19:14:33 <ais523> because it'd lead to an infinite loop whether the result is true or false
19:14:52 <ais523> I'm currently favouring the Lychrel conjecture (probably in base 3 rather than base 10)
19:14:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's not Sigma-1. but you can still make a version that nobody can answer
19:15:21 <ais523> because unlike with the Collatz conjecture (where every number that's been checked is known to not be a counterexample)
19:15:52 <ais523> the Lychrel conjecture has small numbers that are believed to be counterexamples (196 in base 10; 10201₃ = 100₁₀ in base 10)
19:15:59 <ais523> *the Lychrel conjecture has small numbers that are believed to be counterexamples (196 in base 10; 10201₃ = 100₁₀ in base 3)
19:16:13 <ais523> and Minsky machines are actually really good at reversing the digits in numbers
19:17:30 <wob_jonas> hmm no.. that doesn't work. I was wondering if Basal Sliver worked, to give another creature a sacrifice mana ability, since we already have other large creatures. but it doesn't work because, like you say, the opponent could sacrifice a creature then.
19:18:22 <ais523> it's really hard to prevent your opponent activating mana abilities
19:19:42 <wob_jonas> and we need specifically a sacrificing one, on a creature or tribal, or else a bigger combo that results in sacrifice, and those are much fewer. we can't just use Manaweft Sliver or Paradise Mantle
19:20:50 <wob_jonas> let me look up this Lychrel conjecture
19:22:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, but do you have evidence that in base 3 it's a hard problem?
19:22:40 <ais523> no, but there is evidence that it's a problem that's both known and unsolved
19:22:58 <ais523> it doesn't need to be hard, so much as something that mathematicians have failed to solve
19:23:05 <wob_jonas> and would it encode smaller than the Goldbach conjecture?
19:26:36 <ais523> a primality tester is going to be quite large
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19:28:25 <oerjan> ais523: since y'all don't seem to have noticed yet, let me point at my simplified direct-from-minsky construction on the wiki.
19:30:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: is it just simplified, or does it provide a more golfed output? I've read ais's simple Minsky to Amnesiac and Amnesiac to Waterfall constructions, and he was right, they are not only simple but provide a small enough output, especially if you remove useless variables
19:31:15 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:The_Waterfall_Model ?
19:32:36 <ais523> it is simpler than the construction that goes via TAFM, though
19:32:56 <ais523> because it scales linearly off the number of decrements rather than quadratically off the number of increments
19:33:54 <wob_jonas> I think going directly to TAFM helps if you have actions that result in large chains of increments on multiple variables
19:34:27 <wob_jonas> but even from Minsky machines, that's sort of an optimziation step, because the Minsky doesn't directly store such a chain
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> And this is a real world issue, because such chains are how a Minsky machine can copy a value
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19:38:12 <oerjan> the construction _sort_ of assumes all large chains of unconditionals can be collapsed by inlining if you want.
19:38:46 <oerjan> because addition is really a single step, not just increment.
19:39:34 <oerjan> oh and you can do several in parallel.
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19:41:49 <oerjan> as for proving TC-ness with a small number of clocks, i think BCT shouldn't be too large if you store the program as a hardcoded binary or ternary number.
19:42:09 <ais523> a queue is annoyingly hard to do in a minsky machine
19:42:15 <ais523> I think you'd need the two-stacks construction
19:43:15 <oerjan> indeed, which made we wonder: is BCT still TC if you use two stacks instead of the data queue, and just swap them when they run out?
19:43:41 <oerjan> (the program is not a problem because you can just reinstate the hardcoded constant)
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19:46:31 <wob_jonas> in Waterfall, how cheaply can you divide with a literal and get both the reminder and the divisor
19:46:41 <wob_jonas> because that's what you need for a stack
19:47:25 <ais523> you can destructively replace a clock with a divmod-by-constant using a clock to store remainder, a clock to store the quotient, a clock for control, and the original
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19:48:09 <ais523> although I think the remainder clock ends up inverted (i.e. it contains divisor-remainder, not the remainder directly)
19:48:17 <wob_jonas> I don't mind two (or more) stacks, I think that's more natural than a tape where you can't cut and paste elements in the middle. People just started using a tape because it corresponds much more to realistic hardware, and this was almost always true, the sole exception being mercury delay lines
19:49:13 <ais523> however you need both a multiply and a divide to make a stack work
19:49:34 <ais523> meaning that you'll probably need to store it in two clocks (which always have almost the same value) rather than one, allowing you to customize what happens when it hits zero
19:49:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but I want division by constant not only for stacks, but also for these number theoretic problems like the Lychrel conjecture
19:50:22 <wob_jonas> or for decoding a large constant that we put in the starting state
19:50:34 <wob_jonas> like, you know, those big constants in quines
19:51:16 <ais523> divmod isn't really too hard, you have a "slow clock" that resets to the divisor whenever it hits 0, and adds 1 to the quotient each time it does so
19:51:32 <ais523> and also keeps a copy of its own value in another clock, that stores the remainder
19:51:46 <ais523> then when the value you're divmodding hits 0, you're done
19:51:56 <wob_jonas> and as for multiplication, I think multiplication by a *compile-time constant* is quite cheap in Waterfall
19:52:02 <ais523> (the slow clock that's controlling the process also bumps all the clocks you aren't using)
19:52:10 <ais523> (so that their value stays approximately constant)
19:53:28 <ais523> right, a clock can do that for itself, so you just need a clock to serve as the output
19:53:42 <ais523> (also remembering that if you want to be able to use one clock for multiple purposes, you need to duplicate it)
19:54:07 <ais523> actually, no it can't, I'm confused
19:54:10 <ais523> you need an extra control clock
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20:27:54 <wob_jonas> in M:tG, why are there no parenthesis in the text boxof this token-thingy printed by WotC: https://media.wizards.com/2018/a25/en_ak0QBpuIOt.png
20:29:41 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54288&oldid=54270 * Singingbanana * (+1)
20:30:15 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54289&oldid=54288 * Singingbanana * (+1)
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20:54:46 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54290&oldid=54289 * Singingbanana * (+0)
20:57:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54291&oldid=54272 * Singingbanana * (+0)
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21:42:56 <\oren\_> I think there is some sort of unwritten rule that says fake milk like almond and stuff can't come in bags
21:59:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: huh what? and what does "bags" mean?
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22:05:24 <fungot> boily: neil fnord ( a b): ' u' are the same and act the same in scsh? or did it all himself
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22:13:24 <HackEgo> wisdom/ wisdom/! wisdom/* wisdom/1 wisdom/7 wisdom/8 wisdom/9 wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/^ wisdom/` wisdom/a wisdom/b wisdom/c wisdom/d wisdom/e wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/l wisdom/o wisdom/p wisdom/q wisdom/s wisdom/w wisdom/y
22:14:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/ wisdom/! wisdom/* wisdom/1 wisdom/7 wisdom/8 wisdom/9 wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/^ wisdom/` wisdom/a wisdom/b wisdom/c wisdom/d wisdom/e wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/l wisdom/o wisdom/p wisdom/q wisdom/s wisdom/w wisdom/y$
22:14:36 <HackEgo> head: error reading 'wisdom/': Is a directory \ ==> wisdom/ <==
22:14:57 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
22:15:10 <HackEgo> \ ! \ #esoteric \ #esoteric-blah \ #programming \ * \ ./ \ ../ \ .doorstop \ 1 \ 1*1 \ 10 \ 1337 \ 21 \ 2600 \ 323 \ 42 \ 4chan \ 4rn4 \ 5318008 \ 6 random numbers \ 7 \ 8/ \ 9 \ =@ccc \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ @messages-loud \ XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR \ \ \ \oren\ \ ^ \ _46bit \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
22:15:20 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 8 5000 0 40960 Mar 2 03:42 wisdom/
22:15:32 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 8 5000 0 40960 Mar 2 03:42 wisdom/
22:15:40 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Oct 28 2016 wisdom/
22:15:53 <HackEgo> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
22:16:06 <HackEgo> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
22:16:11 <HackEgo> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
22:16:16 <HackEgo> 7 is one third of the half of the answer. Also a somewhat popular reformed Borg drone.
22:16:45 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
22:16:46 <HackEgo> \ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
22:16:47 <HackEgo> ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
22:16:50 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
22:17:13 <HackEgo> A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:17:48 <wob_jonas> `1 for w in b c d e i k l o p q s w y; do \? "$w"; done
22:17:56 <HackEgo> 1/4:B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether. \ C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault \ D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language. \ e is a freenode admin. e is not known to be an Agora player. \ I SIGNIFICAT NVMERVM VNVM \ K
22:18:28 <HackEgo> 9176:2016-10-05 <oerjän> slwd e//s/E/e/ \ 9170:2016-10-05 <oerjän> slwd e//s/$/. E is not known to be an Agora player./ \ 9166:2016-10-05 <moonythedwar̈f> learn e is a freenode admin \ 4234:2013-12-26 <FreeFul̈l> rm -rf wisdom/e \ 3958:2013-10-30 <FireFl̈y> mkdir wisdom/e; ln -s wisdom/e/e wisdom/e; echo f >wisdom/e/f
22:18:33 <HackEgo> 2/4: K K Ken \ L is far too short to be a village in Wales. \ o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of st
22:19:01 <HackEgo> 3/4:umble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy. \ P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by red
22:19:08 <HackEgo> 4/4:uction to NP. \ Q is a function Q : Vowel -> Phon that accepts a vowel V as its argument and yields [k] concatenated with the semivowel form of V \ Esses are confusing. \ A w is everything a cow isn't. \ Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
22:21:09 <wob_jonas> There are SIX villages in Norway called Å?
22:24:27 <wob_jonas> `learn A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:29 <HackEgo> Relearned 'i': A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:49 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn A//A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
22:24:52 <HackEgo> Relearned 'a': A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
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23:07:00 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:07:26 <boily> something about not exploding the sun?
23:07:30 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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23:18:23 <boily> it is made of June?
23:35:35 <alercah> boily: when is montriichi?
23:37:02 <boily> hellorcah! September, either 2nd or 3rd weekend. not definitive, but on the verge of.
23:37:26 <boily> also, riichester was nice! 26th place, but fun tournament!
23:41:47 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/edwinbrady/status/970796084544069633
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