< 1520294625 248104 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520294756 495940 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1520294768 594780 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I see! oerjan: yes, your construction works. you inline all the increase effects, and you multiply values with 2 so that there are no ties < 1520294783 588994 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :speak of the devil < 1520295136 180749 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520295232 163437 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also think my idea of replacing queues with pairs of stacks (but only swapping the pair, not a full reversal) works < 1520295250 67922 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm going to call it "pendulum tag" < 1520295272 584446 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the pair of stacks is used in a pendulum-like manner. < 1520295311 130995 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially, it is possible to push the reversal of a stack into the BCT program. < 1520295323 614959 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a mechanical transformation. < 1520295345 479469 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus emulating a queue, but without the implementing language needing to care. < 1520295398 537972 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think you can also use a "pendulum" for the program, if you wish to avoid hard-coding it in the triggers.) < 1520295430 955437 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand what you're talking about here. What are you swapping and why? < 1520295477 209056 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520295516 121242 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in BCT, you have a data queue. i propose replacing it by two stacks, such that one is read and popped, the other is written to. when the reading stack is empty, they are swapped, but the stack is _not_ reversed, so it's not a full queue implementation, but easier. < 1520295575 542310 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus it should require fewer waterclocks to emulate. < 1520295601 978388 :augur!~augur@2600:380:c03b:4abe:4509:efc3:2cf:a0bc QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520295627 989579 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't see how that would work. how does it simulate a proper queue if it's not reversed? < 1520295629 941133 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ais523 seems idle. i assumed you were talking to him. < 1520295635 220714 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're stacks that is < 1520295652 463838 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you can do a mechanical transformation of the BCT program, so _it_ does the reversal. < 1520295663 161275 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1520295665 339332 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite different < 1520295667 269139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well I'm responding to pings at least < 1520295673 310574 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1520295710 209408 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this won't help with making a small demonstration example, of course, i'm more thinking about minimizing waterclocks for TC-ness. < 1520295731 324820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the best minimization is probably to write an interpreter < 1520295737 296151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for anything) < 1520295755 89042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not getting very far with working out what sort of language would be best to interpret < 1520295758 312943 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i just considered tweaking BCT so it was easier to implement. < 1520295760 604986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of the usual suspects really work < 1520295781 744898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I suspect the best option is actually something weird that might not even be on the wiki yet < 1520295827 818145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Fractran isn't so ridiculous but I think we can do better < 1520295840 246419 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for the TC too, this will be one of those stupid many-step reductions again, with ten layers of emulation and four levels of exponential until you get to a sane model < 1520295866 497195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I like those :-) < 1520295872 24499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also normally some of the exponential cancels out < 1520295879 175161 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so you consider BCT except with two stacks for data still too complicated? < 1520295885 774642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might have got the 2,3 machine down to just exponential, eventually? it was double exponential at worse < 1520295900 166281 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, CT, you probably don't want to decode 10 and 11 in two steps) < 1520295920 742962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you need two for data, one for the program, and because reading a waterclock zeroes it you need to keep copying the current value of the program back and forth to remember where you are in it < 1520295927 904910 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: more seriously, I think we have to interpret something with a bounded number of different instructions, and with the instructions of the program being ran in an implicit while loop, which probably means interpreting say a Minsky-like machine with a fixed number of stacks, but no goto instructions, only some other control structure < 1520295959 362323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps some sort of TC Deadfish variant? < 1520295963 28783 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1520295966 431259 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that reminds me of something < 1520295976 102723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have in fact been trying to find a simple TC Deadfish-alike, no luck yet though) < 1520295999 252033 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.de.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1 < 1520296001 542644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general structure of "one number and some commands that manipulate it" is appealing though < 1520296006 869102 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't want exactly that language, but somethign close < 1520296056 636945 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language it uses is an implicit while loop, and all instructions are one of a=b; a+=b; a-=b; a*=b; a/=b; where a and b are chosen from say fifteen registers, and these operate on signed integers < 1520296078 333056 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, that's not what we want < 1520296096 779531 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might not want to hardcode even addition and subtraction if we don't have to < 1520296096 850028 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno then < 1520296162 155761 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is, I definitely want an instruction stream with fixed-size instructions, and that means no unbounded amount of labels or open addressing of instructions, < 1520296162 225370 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wait < 1520296212 904776 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could have a program that has two state registers, has instructions for incrementing or zeroing a state register, and have all the other instructions (which are like simple minsky-likes) execute only if the two state registers are equal < 1520296240 189770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like there's not much you can do while they're nonequal < 1520296255 23336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you use the difference between them as a PC and the value as data? < 1520296260 123700 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program can encode states that way, with the first state register tracking the state of the state machine it simulates, and the second state register tells what instruction of the state machine you're encoding now < 1520296260 194011 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... that's not very clear < 1520296283 614900 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is the PC < 1520296319 203690 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is the PC of the simulated program flow, the other is the address of the instructions from the original program < 1520296374 540375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and you have further values for the RAM < 1520296378 289648 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our Waterfall program cycles through the instructions of the intermediate program, but apart from the instructions that increment the second state register, the only instructions executed are the ones corresponding to the current state of the simulated program < 1520296393 259837 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means even the instructions incrementing or zeroing the first state register have to be conditional < 1520296405 83038 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the instructions incrementing the second state registers are unconditional < 1520296435 17763 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sort of, but instead of a random-addressable anything, I'm thinking of more like a fixed number of registers, each storing a natural number < 1520296477 404186 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the original language we're compiling programs from is something similar to a Minsky with a bounded number of registers < 1520296507 12827 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we know that's already TC < 1520296533 610194 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we only want TC, and don't care about the slowdown, we can get away with exactly two registers and proper minsky. < 1520296551 942314 :augur!~augur@104-244-24-85.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520296727 210963 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means the language we interpret would need to have the following instructions: [0] L=0; (appears exactly once), [1] L++; [2] if(L==P) P=0; [3] if(L==P) P++; [4] if(L==P) A++; [5] if(L==P) B++; [6] if(L==P&&A) A--; [7] if(L==P&&B) B--; [8] if(L==P&&A) P++; [9] if(L==P&&B) P++; < 1520296758 569594 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how in the world is this going to get simpler than BCT... < 1520296760 424721 :AisRauli!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dwwqiukfcspuhbwn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520296771 601207 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520296774 896958 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want exactly those, then for every conditional of the original Minsky, the next state for nonzero has to be later than the next state for zero, but we can use unconditional gotos to work that around. < 1520296789 574224 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm not saying it will be, I just don't understand how BCT works. < 1520296804 558522 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I also don't understand how two-register Minsky works, but that's another problem. < 1520296815 821799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: do you understand how n-register Minsky works? < 1520296842 721118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea of two-register Minsky is that you encode the value of n registers using prime powers < 1520296856 133704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 to the power of the first register, times 3 to the power of the second register, times 5 to the power of the third register, and so on < 1520296890 321014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can increment any of the simulated registers via multiplication, decrement via divmod (if the modulus isn't 0 you tried to decrement 0 so you put the register back as it was and go into an alternative state) < 1520296904 905385 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, you can simulate a multi-stack machine with an n-register minsky, where n is a few more than the stacks. you can get that down to three registers of minsky simulating a two stack machine or something. and yes, I've read the proof for reducing that to two-counter Minsky, < 1520296906 871669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason two registers are required is because that's the minimum for multiply and for divmod < 1520296967 369892 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that proof is like magic, and I think I just refused to think about it because of the extra level of exponential involved, and I thought one would never want to simplify a machine to two registers from three at that high a cost < 1520296983 192698 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now here I am, wanting to prove TC-ness of M:tG, and now I know that yes, you might want to do exactly that < 1520297027 769138 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1520297093 994086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was really interested to see commands being removed from Underload < 1520297099 601132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though each removal (other than ~) makes it much slower < 1520297132 249343 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so in the universal Minsky program that we compile to Waterfall, what's the best way to simulate the L and P registers? do we want to store them separately and somehow compare them; or do we want to store max(0,L-P) and max(0,P-L) in two registers, since we can get modify the model to use decreases instead of zeroing? < 1520297286 765835 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... maybe it's better to do some swappy thing < 1520297291 539840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if there's a good way to store a command-based program < 1520297302 867365 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the ! removal is probably not too slow given a sensible interpreter, it just leaks memory. < 1520297303 106416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we can have multiple stacks, so that the smallest stack indicates the first command of the program < 1520297309 527237 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1520297320 647640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after it runs the next-smallest stack will be the second command, and this is infinitely customizable < 1520297338 613723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, it's probably only a constant factor in an interpreter for which ~ doesn't scale on the size of the top stack element < 1520297412 497528 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me modify the instructions to [0] L--; [1] L++; [2] if(L==P) P--; [3] if(L==P) P++; [4] if(L==P) A++; [5] if(L==P) { if (A) A--; else P++; } [6] swap(A,B); < 1520297450 326665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's got to be more than you need, surely < 1520297476 208571 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where A and B are positive integers, and we actually only store the signed difference L-P < 1520297491 114391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not sure your control flow graph works correctly < 1520297494 48281 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably. oerjan says BCT is smaller, and I can believe that < 1520297506 686947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, BCT only has three commands < 1520297511 430052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (peek()) push(true) < 1520297515 166749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (peek()) push(false) < 1520297516 567542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop() < 1520297524 182953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, cyclic tag in general < 1520297531 766409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCT is just a concrete syntax for them < 1520297549 6563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the push/pop/peek here are for a queue, i.e. peek and pop read from one end but push pushes onto the other < 1520297593 488910 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and the BCT program is not self-modifying, and is executed in a for(;;) loop, right? < 1520297623 369839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes < 1520297651 608760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a self-modifying version called Self BCT but I think it hasn't even been proven TC and is kind-of hard to work with < 1520297657 420647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people use regular cyclic tag most of the time < 1520297668 869898 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and oerjan said some magical thing above about how to simulate the data queue < 1520297697 804935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a perfect simulation, the hope was that the language would still be TC despite the semantics having changed < 1520297775 48968 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I assumed he implied he already knew how to write programs for the modified language < 1520297797 832899 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1520297799 131038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight which is very similar to cyclic tag < 1520297805 829896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two compible back and forth quite easily < 1520297808 722226 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*compile < 1520297812 352953 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, all this definitely looks more hopeful now, in the sense that we'll be able to fit something like this into the 230 creature types < 1520297882 867748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I don't think there was any question of that < 1520297905 653848 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no question that it can be done < 1520297907 247585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might even be able to fit Malbolge into 230 (without using an intermediate interpreter) < 1520297911 105953 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is if it can be done easy enough that we can understand it < 1520297917 35637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is whether we can make it simple enough to memorise < 1520297924 704274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is necessary for it to be legal to deploy during a game of M:tG < 1520297933 68568 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's also not the question < 1520297955 903045 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to memorize because it's not enough to know the interpreter, but get a useful program through all the intermediate compilation steps < 1520297959 600803 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to remember all that < 1520297966 167924 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. an interpreter is not going to help getting a memorizable program. < 1520297967 731782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, program too < 1520297979 867364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are two questions < 1520297999 875728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) is it TC, b) can you deploy an undecidable-with-present-knowledge program in a real game < 1520298005 678978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) requires an interp that's short enough to memorise < 1520298013 699642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) a program that's short enough to memorise < 1520298055 81093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think cpressey would like the philosophical problem of "in this language, only programs short enough to memorise are accepted"; I believe that would automatically make it sub-TC even though it can implement, say, BF interpreters < 1520298064 480147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as bundling input with them could make the program invalid! < 1520298066 550528 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the tournament setting, I think the strategy is still to encode some of those difficult combinatoric number theory conjectures, one that Erdős or Terry Tao claims is hard, and encode it as directly to Waterfall as possible < 1520298082 14288 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i was assuming (b) would _not_ use the interpreter, and then (a) doesn't need to be memorizable. < 1520298095 268998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the problem is "Is Magic: the Gathering Turing complete?" < 1520298102 808908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that implies you must be able to set up the gamestate within the game rules < 1520298108 722205 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...ok. < 1520298110 181124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Slow Play is one of those rules, and "no written notes" is anotehr < 1520298137 62900 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no written notes from before the match < 1520298158 728028 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write notes in between < 1520298163 829187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: OK, but we still have to memorise it to be able to write the notes during the match < 1520298178 347611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be a good plan to write the notes during game 1 and deploy them during game 2, though < 1520298203 754213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the purpose of setting the thing off during game 2 of a match is that it reduces the incentive for the opponent to concede) < 1520298298 91733 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think that's a good plan < 1520298320 240570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to what? < 1520298404 301480 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this is a legacy combo deck. you have to go off in game 1, because in game 2 the opponent will sideboard in cards that counter the combo you use very easily, and you don't have much of a sideboard available to counter his deck, so he will win before you can go off. < 1520298404 362268 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're sacrificing your sideboard for shenanigans, and it's a combo deck in first place, so fragile to sideboards. < 1520298437 960995 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, goofing off with your notes during game 1 will get you a slow play warning < 1520298441 361063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's one of the slower combo decks in legacy, it trades speed for resiliency < 1520298450 998190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can see the argument for going for it in game 1 < 1520298463 234989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the odds are that the opponent will concede before they even find out you aren't playing release the ants, though < 1520298480 567067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and will definitely concede once you've bounced their entire board and prevented them getting any more turns < 1520298492 200263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they want to try to win games 2 and 3 < 1520298507 179979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you win game 1, that incentive doesn't exist any more < 1520298513 361127 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think remembering the details is the bottleneck anyway. being able to explain them quickly enough to the judge is the bottlneck. if you can clear that, then you can probably learn it well enough by heart. < 1520298538 141354 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520298538 198368 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some point in that < 1520298594 325458 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying that we can rarely go off with the combo, so you want to skew the odds such that if you go off with the combo, the opponent is patient enough to hear the explanation of what you're doing after, rather than conceding < 1520298631 295262 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that will be hard < 1520298633 35915 :olsner!~salparot@c83-249-177-44.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520298637 462029 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people will concede when you go off with the combo and lock them down < 1520298755 860489 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still thinking about the TC proof rather than the tournament setting though. I wonder if you could have four stacks, and simulate brainfuck using that, and I mean the bf variant where overflow and underflow are undefined behavior, and without io. < 1520298770 995495 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need one more counter, to count the nesting < 1520298771 104987 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bracket nesting that is < 1520298807 222466 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's probably not a very efficient thing to do < 1520298928 537072 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if you could encode the bf program in some more clever way < 1520299341 383230 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520299522 383647 :olsner!~salparot@c83-249-177-44.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1520299998 429051 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kfmoisqpcdcpqktu JOIN :#esoteric < 1520300509 451078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1520300583 761409 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, well, we could encode a BF program as a neural network < 1520300751 642987 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could encode a BF program as java error messages. < 1520301554 274464 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1520302034 564249 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf NICK :AegisCommand < 1520302069 723561 :AegisCommand!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1520302086 684020 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1520302089 166980 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520302347 707958 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520302722 940729 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520302909 820841 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520303960 73807 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520305877 423135 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520306246 582293 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520306261 416970 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520306359 580304 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520306391 402954 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520306889 220796 :augur!~augur@104-244-24-85.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520307542 383362 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520307695 427665 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520307761 625523 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1520308375 596130 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520308544 540411 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520308558 222617 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520310365 385375 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520310916 288167 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520312653 381517 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520313271 130718 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so do you think this Lollar person is real < 1520314355 784173 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( sounds like e's laughing all the way to the bank ) < 1520315123 35565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Hale < 1520315205 275683 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1520315210 427221 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_density#Anisotropic_dielectrics has the kind of polynomial I was talking about. < 1520315224 917775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the kind of Taylor series I was talking about, rather. < 1520315308 845408 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, interesting. < 1520315345 346672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also do you know what an eigenvector of a bilinear form (represented as a matrix) means? < 1520315376 335273 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, consider what the level sets of the bilinear form look like < 1520315394 77409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading about an optimization trick that used an eigenbasis of a quadratic form. < 1520316046 409366 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The eigenvectors tell you the axes of the conic sections (or quadratic surfaces, etc. in higher dimensions) which are the level sets of quadratic form < 1520316182 432757 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1520316357 690167 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520316364 361542 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The corresponding eigenvalues tell you something about the nature of the conic sections you have -- if they're both positive, you'll have an ellipse, if they're of differing sign, you'll have a hyperbola < 1520316394 25430 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're both negative, you'll get ellipses as level sets again < 1520316461 316491 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you might want to consider specifically the level set where q(v) = 1 to distinguish the negative case, where you'll just find no real solutions then) < 1520316526 635807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this generalize to e.g. cubic forms? < 1520316601 747635 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect you'd get something meaningful there, but I wouldn't quite have such good words to talk about it :) < 1520316630 801828 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generalises to higher dimensions nicely though < 1520316702 948140 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can distinguish whether you have an ellipsoid or one- or two-sheeted hyperboloid, or paraboloid using the eigenvalues) < 1520316736 141602 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in three dimensions of course) < 1520316778 226080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but I want to escape the matrix representation. < 1520316806 146402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I've been trying to figure out how to think about tensor contraction and trace. < 1520316836 291497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tensor contraction is kind of like function application. Or like the cut rule. < 1520316872 946573 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out that trace is the unique (up to scalar multiplication) linear operator on matrices such that tr(AB) = tr(BA) < 1520317633 46340 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520317763 662275 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520321073 338153 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520321361 2838 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1520322847 186351 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Can you get a parabola? < 1520322869 380873 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 2 dimensions < 1520323417 385303 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520323419 499219 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: Sure, something like [1,0;0,0] < 1520323430 706557 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520323533 103004 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, hmm < 1520323579 777387 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that'll be two parallel lines, not a parabola) < 1520323922 498151 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520324029 16428 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520324070 206197 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520324077 754345 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1520324419 245847 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, to get parabolas and paraboloids, you need a linear term < 1520324689 35350 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, [x,y][1,0;0,0](x,y) + [0,-1](x,y) = 1 will be a nice parabola < 1520324983 451198 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining a 0 eigenvalue with a nonzero linear term in that direction < 1520325309 611713 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1520325402 508345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: So if you express a quadratic form homogeneously the way you were talking about, you get a matrix like [[a b/2] [b/2 c]] < 1520325523 772015 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's not a coincidence that its determinant is (4ac-b^2)/4 < 1520326242 207587 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520327644 160474 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520328125 674226 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1520328537 660838 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520332978 538345 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kfmoisqpcdcpqktu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520333289 136468 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520336096 80244 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520336870 364456 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1520336877 169440 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:me//Me is a proud member of the tEaM. \ thanks ants//thants \ wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom. Strictly speaking, it should be called the "Wissphere". \ ip//Your IP address is the address of the pointer t < 1520336878 146367 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1520336879 495134 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:o the current instruction. \ the walrus//In order to obtain the unredacted documents specifying the true identity of the walrus, contact the Glass Onion (mailing address: UH2BEStWmPI). < 1520337504 500830 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a46c74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1520337723 781545 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1520338454 457576 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: TREMOLO CHICKEN < 1520344836 294456 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520346765 194995 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1520348237 534520 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a46c74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520348600 764806 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1520349601 386429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Oleg 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Cryptoleq Processor.jpg10]]" > 1520349633 826409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cryptoleq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54293&oldid=47192 5* 03Oleg 5* (+59) 10adding a picture < 1520352550 987657 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1520352562 174273 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1520353697 564528 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520354270 650275 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520355823 215716 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520356034 373172 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkjpvxlqyqzrxsgl JOIN :#esoteric < 1520357030 354021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520357037 294578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw. < 1520357041 797358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rule does not say what I thought it said < 1520357052 277197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also does not say what the person drafting it probably thought it meant < 1520357069 403838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implication is that if there's an infinite loop but you have a choice on each loop iteration, it's not a draw even if the choice you make doesn't matter… < 1520357333 208598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520357406 4701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520357607 191834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, and the rule about "you must break a loop if you can" isn't in the Comprehensive Rules, it's in the Infraction Procedure Guide < 1520357641 684194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that it's possible to construct a gamestate in which the /opponent/ is legally forced to commit a Slow Play infringement < 1520357651 602574 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1520357723 231335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it rather interferes with our construction as the current solution is just "unless a player can predict the outcome of this loop, they get dinged for Slow Play" < 1520357728 349381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :applying to both players < 1520360054 176788 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you have a loop that has a well-defined limit < 1520360079 240279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can state the limit and the resulting gamestate to avoid the penalty < 1520360102 684885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i Scow Play infringement < 1520360575 39738 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1520360747 550525 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520361188 358755 :Naergon_!~Naergon@188.29.164.104.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1520361305 452564 :Naergon!~Naergon@unaffiliated/naergon QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520363213 453585 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520363465 432900 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520363499 778207 :Roger9!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a reddit post about literal brainfuck. -> https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/82e4hc/til_an_endangered_parrot_in_new_zealand_would/ < 1520363962 250061 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520364730 529105 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com < 1520365449 284302 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520365856 375380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subject: Your code in Bitbucket Cloud will never look the same again <-- what an ominous subject. < 1520366121 806134 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i Ｉ𝐟𝖞𝒐𝓾𝕨𝚊𝗇𝘁𝙩𝘰⒮🇦🄾🆄ŕﾘɗ∂єаኗ𝔞ïɴ... < 1520366338 741135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bless you < 1520366475 171434 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't read that. I mean, even in a browser with, I think, all the necessary fonts. < 1520366499 958065 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to say "If you want to see your code again..." < 1520366519 268871 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⒮🇦🄾🆄ŕﾘɗ∂є < 1520366527 518964 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+24AE PARENTHESIZED LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+1F1E6 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER A] [U+1F13E SQUARED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+1F184 NEGATIVE SQUARED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+0155 LATIN SMALL LETTER R WITH ACUTE] [U+FF98 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA LETTER RI] [U+0257 LATIN SMALL LETTER D WITH HOOK] [U+2202 PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL] [U+0454 CYRILLIC S < 1520366529 561817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :look i tried ok < 1520366558 441813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "seeyourcode" part was unreadbale. < 1520366575 178763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it wasn't ideal. < 1520366575 995581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...nice swap < 1520366600 923849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi and tried to take one letter from each line. < 1520366623 70389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then halfway through I decided I'd put enough effort into it and gave up. < 1520367012 699194 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1520367439 441598 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520368504 166211 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1520368805 611153 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520369122 666392 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1520369623 395554 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: class < 1520369689 41779 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1520370177 629434 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520370315 605191 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520370672 419621 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1520371137 793240 :LeoLambda!Leo@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe3e:12c3 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in < 1520371275 333168 :LeoLambda!~Leo@li263-173.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1520373019 720974 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ende14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54294&oldid=54170 5* 03Martin Ender 5* (+25) 10add queue-based category > 1520373075 350568 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ende14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54295&oldid=54294 5* 03Martin Ender 5* (-1) 10whoops, typo < 1520374302 845427 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520375112 644101 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520375551 397306 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1520376727 637640 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520376762 762222 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ヤッタ！ < 1520376778 399111 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at last! I don't have to Ctrl-Alt-F2 then manually startx anymore! < 1520376814 183044 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520376840 485527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if you're system's sufficiently screwed up that X won't start automatically, I'm surprised it could be started manually < 1520376879 560357 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have to edit resolv.conf either! < 1520376897 41805 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my system's perfectly normal and I never did nothing strange to it ever la la la ♪ < 1520377107 954110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Ctrl-Alt-F2 is required, rather than Alt-F2, that sounds like X is starting up but then not running a useful X session or something. < 1520377370 413938 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloochaf. maybe so... Ubuntu's startup gets a little bit confusing just before starting X. < 1520377394 377152 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1520377606 216666 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :life is but a long shrug. crack open a cold one and enjoy. < 1520377885 245130 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520378620 606558 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520378752 764875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well the ctrl doesn't hurt even if X isn't running < 1520378796 314841 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Maybe some people just always press Ctrl. < 1520379832 264276 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520380037 851414 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520380416 245469 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just note that either that, or said person is using Arch, and doesn't have X by default < 1520380436 418155 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p