thing
> 1524101240 309737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54875&oldid=54857 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+10) 10Added mep
< 1524101294 78617 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1524101313 481118 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524101342 688360 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1524101455 812882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the derivative of f at x is the "best affine approximation" of f around x. Is there some way to make that precise without resorting to the usual definition of derivatives?
< 1524101535 731426 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-roaxspoxvloirjgw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1524101908 691154 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524102387 531581 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54876&oldid=54652 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+189) 10Vogon Poetry
< 1524102447 704964 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1524103600 430408 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( put it's affine definition )
< 1524103651 513682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan
< 1524103665 546434 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-klnnepjilyxublyn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524103687 337078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone gave me a good perspective which is that continuous functions are ones that can be approximated locally by a constant function (degree 0 polynomial)
< 1524103727 786492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524103791 161975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And differentiable functions can be approximated locally by a degree-1 polynomial and so on.
< 1524103801 344625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524103805 198513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite know how to make that precise.
> 1524103907 597323 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:BradensEsolangs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54877 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+97) 10Created page with "Braden (or Ikura) is a user who made these languages: * [[mep]] (note: Pongo the penguin made it)"
< 1524104034 681677 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524104397 681701 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1524104536 991570 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524104982 344335 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Lost14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54878&oldid=54865 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+402) 10Strings are fine but the programs *are* broken
> 1524105733 162969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Lost14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54879&oldid=54878 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+158) 10/* Stringmode */ Maybe not the quine
< 1524105823 164142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1524106267 932358 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh wait he's edited the HW as well, i'd better check if i checked the right versions...
< 1524106270 936052 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*e
< 1524106299 299565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1524106316 599624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this about Lost?
< 1524106389 926577 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes.
< 1524106416 660017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "HW" stand for?
< 1524106424 553619 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok the version _commented_ on is wrong, but the one in the example section was fine before e changed it
< 1524106428 503380 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World!
< 1524106577 599728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha
> 1524106738 946879 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lost14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54880&oldid=54843 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-1054) 10Revert, because it was based on a faulty assumption, although the version in that section indeed doesn't work, so add a comment on that.
> 1524106883 858151 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Lost14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54881&oldid=54879 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+165) 10Hello, World! too, partly
< 1524107112 723564 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's this meta-PPCG question that keeps coming up that's obviously inspired by you disappearing :P
< 1524107133 179788 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that wasn't it now
< 1524107192 11897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find it
< 1524107294 53733 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/16137/how-to-request-clarifications-when-the-challenge-poster-has-left-the-site
< 1524107337 870494 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although to be fair, you had explicitly referred to the standard rules
< 1524107370 672766 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it has quieted down (and the only answer was deleted).
< 1524107390 481312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a believer that the OP shouldn't be in charge of challenge rules anyway
< 1524107407 643299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making them be in charge even if they've deleted the account to say "really, honestly, this content belongs to the community" makes no sense at all
< 1524107529 60238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/13067/who-has-the-final-say-on-a-challenge?noredirect=1 which decides that the author doesn't get the final say full stop, the people arguing for the author to have the final say were arguing that it was based on the author's name being linked to the post
< 1524107661 271426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I /also/ think PPCG should have standard rules for input encoding that should be set in advance per-language
< 1524107667 991062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would have solved this problem
< 1524108018 22788 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1524108101 330917 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony1339: bfjoust
< 1524108103 270972 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help
< 1524108103 333317 :zemhill__!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
< 1524108131 288735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The derivative clearly *is* the best linear approximation around a point. So what makes one linear approximation (or another class of approximation) better than another?
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< 1524109556 154516 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: |a1(x)-f(x)| <= |a2(x)-f(x)| in some neighboorhood?
< 1524109557 685460 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1524109586 67139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure. But not in any specific neighborhood.
< 1524109603 535692 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but neighboorhoods are a filter.
< 1524109617 343635 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all sufficiently close ones.
< 1524109854 789673 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full
< 1524109968 163278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just be happy with "a C^k function is a function that can be locally approximated by a degree-k polynomial"
< 1524109971 714823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure I know what that means other than in terms of repeated derivatives.
< 1524110087 731885 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may very well be equivalent to there being a unique degree-k polynomial that is "best" in the sense above.
< 1524110201 51202 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there might be some technical obstacle i haven't thought of.
< 1524110369 755801 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524110465 804205 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you define this without a metric?
< 1524110535 12518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1524110918 515862 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: doubtful.
< 1524111247 43004 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So how are you expressing "all sufficiently close ones"?
< 1524111703 152465 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :all contained in a given one.
< 1524111715 204883 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the usual limit of filters.
< 1524111735 702674 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full
< 1524111776 367697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for a function f : X -> Y and a point x : X, and a class of functions G : X -> Y
< 1524111806 512127 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A candidate approximation of f at x is a function g : G such that g(x) = f(x)
< 1524111827 957528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the best candidate is...
< 1524111838 255898 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't even need g(x)=f(x) to start with
< 1524111903 225543 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so a candidate is a function g : G
< 1524111913 342689 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best candidate is a g0 such that for all g, there exists a neighboorhood O of x such that |g0(y)-f(y)| <= |g(y)-f(y)| for y in O.
< 1524112036 616127 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you don't need to say for all neighborhoods of f(x)
< 1524112141 283135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go home and think about it then.
< 1524112183 464613 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said, there might be a technical complication i haven't thought of
< 1524112204 301570 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might make this not always equivalent to the definition using derivatives.
< 1524112398 346052 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524112627 587754 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1524112996 65606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, do you get the usual definition of continuity from making g a constant functioon?
< 1524113041 324345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean from making G be constant functions.
< 1524113099 248120 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that may be a problem.
< 1524113123 772663 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait
< 1524113126 455830 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :a value g0 : Y such that forall g : Y exists neighborhood A of x, forall x' : A, d(g0, f(x')) <= d(g, f(x'))
< 1524113144 402823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's not unreasonable.
< 1524113176 264951 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok it doesn't work for continuity.
< 1524113186 82157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not the standard definition.
< 1524113220 925163 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait
< 1524113302 397765 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it works for that
< 1524113324 677930 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except maybe not in reverse...
< 1524113336 683763 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In reverse?
< 1524113363 367501 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's continuous then clearly the constant is best.
< 1524113393 707731 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*constant f(x)
< 1524113398 660154 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :baba is best
< 1524113425 509329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect a definition to say something about "forall neighborhoods of f(x)"
< 1524113473 689381 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm and if it's not continuous then you can find an arbitrary close point that's, say, > e above
< 1524113483 407577 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then e/2 beats it.
< 1524113573 89371 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might be dependent on the range being R, though.
< 1524113602 960096 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :locally compact might work.
< 1524113644 303072 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or...
< 1524113667 876131 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's an unnecessary complication at this stage.
< 1524113723 803033 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will work for R^n, i think.
< 1524113903 456357 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.
< 1524114370 197520 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :
< 1524116800 741395 :Naergon!~Naergon@unaffiliated/naergon QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1524117618 309077 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
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< 1524121736 860510 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1524121894 879114 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:c455:9f32:5485:72b3 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524122023 441151 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524123642 656431 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524123735 850750 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-klnnepjilyxublyn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
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> 1524127268 340454 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03BoutonIA 5*  10New user account
< 1524128666 432349 :Naergon!~Naergon@92.40.249.252.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524128850 793876 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION aaaaaaaaaaaah

< 1524128980 674323 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh?
< 1524129230 376374 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Felt like screaming, here felt more or less appropriate place to do it
< 1524129326 78896 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh-oh.
< 1524129335 123667 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you just forced to write in brainfuck ?
< 1524129338 494291 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(find the missing vowel)
< 1524129345 796077 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i
< 1524129359 237004 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu PRIVMSG #esoteric :y
< 1524129369 923951 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wh
< 1524129390 251937 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forget an S, there was 2
< 1524129394 484915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... let's have ä ö ü as well to start a flood.
< 1524129443 753115 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ø
< 1524129609 70063 :Storkman!~Storkman@storkman.xyz QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1524130584 410444 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1524130647 529008 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54882&oldid=54834 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+300) 10/* Introductions */
< 1524130807 233134 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524131373 272624 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
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> 1524134905 696359 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CopyPasta Language14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54883 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+963) 10Created page with "'''CopyPasta Language''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:BoutonIA]] on 19 April [[:Category:2018|2018]]. This programming language refers to the CopyPast..."
> 1524134924 680430 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54884&oldid=53666 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+64) 10/* General languages */
> 1524135058 656512 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54885&oldid=54875 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+25) 10/* C */
< 1524135111 655226 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524135316 884173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:BoutonIA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54886 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+223) 10Created page with "Hi ! I'm BoutonIA , a random idiot on Internet ! === My Languages === [[CopyPasta Language]] === My Projects === Programming : The Musical

 If you have a question about..."
< 1524137637 318749 :jix!~jix@jix.omnomnom.pizza QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524138426 606941 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`meta EGSC
< 1524138427 827828 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: meta: not found
< 1524138429 581544 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`metar EGSC
< 1524138431 122480 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: @metar EGSC
< 1524138438 455530 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGSC
< 1524138439 105889 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGSC 191120Z 17004KT CAVOK 25/10 Q1023
< 1524138458 499162 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get there eventually to get the weather string I don't know how to read
< 1524138637 363421 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524139797 218546 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524139944 767371 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the backlog, sees ais523 and PPCG and some calculus stuff

< 1524140044 642351 :jix!~jix@jix.omnomnom.pizza JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524140569 130018 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? title
< 1524140570 786764 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Titles J. K. Rowling had specifically denied on her webpage would be the titles of the sixth or seventh Harry Potter book are: Harry Potter and the{ Green Flame Torch, Mountain of Fantasy, Fortress of Shadows, Forest of Shadows, Graveyard of Memories, Pyramids of Furmat, Pillar of Storgé, Toenail of Icklibõgg}.
< 1524140604 426297 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom
< 1524140605 687206 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, if not careful. There be balrogs.
< 1524140644 450914 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGLL
< 1524140645 276756 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGLL 191150Z AUTO 16004KT 090V240 9999 NCD 26/10 Q1023 NOSIG
< 1524140657 180254 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just ridiculous.
< 1524141060 928683 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524141683 533818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi
< 1524141684 93029 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 191220Z 20003KT 150V290 CAVOK 23/08 Q1027 NOSIG
< 1524141706 551825 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :summer is coming
< 1524141719 600193 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1524141728 501957 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allergy season is coming
< 1524142830 454630 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524148886 455733 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
< 1524149042 611445 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524149162 164083 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524150683 266933 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524150870 527332 :wob_jonas!b03f18a2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.162 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
< 1524153120 501196 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-koauhugklmgvkqht JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524154389 103319 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1524154485 240916 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524155245 544354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54887&oldid=54884 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (-4) 10/* General languages */
< 1524155310 884066 :BoutonIA!25a80945@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.168.9.69 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524155321 303450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Kamish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54888&oldid=54814 5* 03Kamish 5* (-8) 10
> 1524155333 68178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Kamish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54889&oldid=54888 5* 03Kamish 5* (+8) 10
> 1524155342 204410 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Kamish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54890&oldid=54889 5* 03Kamish 5* (+4) 10
< 1524155403 98977 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524155783 575863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Umnikos 5*  10New user account
> 1524156333 749266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mep14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54891&oldid=54874 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+152) 10Negative numbers!
> 1524156486 442800 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mep14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54892&oldid=54891 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+48) 10A little more.
< 1524156641 363460 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric
> 1524156975 929622 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54893&oldid=53526 5* 03BradensEsolangs 5* (+137) 10/* Question */ new section
> 1524157143 893406 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CopyPasta Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54894&oldid=54883 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+9) 10
> 1524157392 969156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CopyPasta Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54895&oldid=54894 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+73) 10/* Commands */
> 1524157665 100116 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:BoutonIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54896&oldid=54886 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+22) 10
> 1524158190 866372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CopyPasta Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54897&oldid=54895 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (+14) 10/* Commands */
< 1524160469 900353 :BoutonIA!25a80945@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.168.9.69 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1524161211 394722 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGLL
< 1524161211 926505 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGLL 191750Z AUTO 23009KT 9999 NCD 26/09 Q1022 NOSIG
< 1524161218 11980 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. My phone was claiming 28.
< 1524161236 324332 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be warmer city-centre
< 1524161525 404524 :Naergon!~Naergon@92.40.249.252.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1524161942 607521 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524163331 116636 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524163358 702792 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524163392 464282 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (Underload!):::SSS
< 1524163392 564582 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underload!Underload!Underload!
< 1524163406 951422 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1524165493 103485 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524165551 873739 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (10100):::*!S
< 1524165551 953398 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :10100
< 1524165577 836360 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (1):*S
< 1524165577 936362 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11
< 1524165807 387919 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: danil
< 1524166084 198437 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524166451 700325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524166453 435571 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524166524 576321 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524166707 167318 :MDude!~MDude@pa-67-234-118-37.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1524167042 831608 :danil!~danil@cpc88836-newt35-2-0-cust780.19-3.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: danil
< 1524167522 781118 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1524167540 893733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1524167679 938944 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:BoutonIA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54898&oldid=54896 5* 03BoutonIA 5* (-22) 10/* My Projects */
< 1524167784 674652 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524168956 185254 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if JavaScript had a goto command, they wouldn't use it as much as it is used in C, because it isn't needed as much. You can do all of it without goto, but a few things are more clearly when you do have goto, even though mostly you can do better without.
< 1524169088 198664 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language without goto should at least have RAII
< 1524169115 802266 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAII is what?
< 1524169158 877228 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some programming language it make sense to don't have a goto command, such as Haskell and Verilog, but most programming languages they should include a goto command even though you may have enough other flow controls that goto is rarely needed.
< 1524169182 166515 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besically destructors that automatically run when the object goes out of scope
< 1524169188 283621 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really useful for clean-up
< 1524169188 842871 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524169328 109446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a try...finally... block in JavaScript
< 1524169433 371844 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524169727 251724 :augur_!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524169812 623941 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1524170344 102338 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe, jquery.com let their SSL certificate expire?
< 1524170387 739368 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But I guess it's too much to hope that this will teach people to host their javascript themselves.)
< 1524170480 99299 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1524170519 478670 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when you can make a technical argument in favor of using a central location like this (as long as it's reliable)... user agents are more likely to have the code already cached. :-(
< 1524170903 954522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other consideration is if the user wants to override the code.
< 1524170938 654106 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Seems they already renewed their certificate
< 1524170955 406872 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...
< 1524170957 608422 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could be adding in a HTML attribute to control automatic caching and user overriding of common files such as jquery and so on
< 1524171115 963530 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: pretty sure that's not a concern that web developers have
< 1524171213 217053 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: hmm it /may/ be a CDN issue? "code.jquery.com uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is only valid for the following names: *.ssl.hwcdn.net, ssl.hwcdn.net"
< 1524171235 213869 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is what I get for https://code.jquery.com/jquery-3.2.1.min.js)
< 1524171237 298287 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: RAII is a programminng technique for ensuring that allocated resources are deallocated; the way it works is that whenever you allocate a resource (e.g. taking a lock), you do so in the constructor of an auto/stack-allocated object, and then you have that object's destructor deallocate it
< 1524171253 418625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way, it's impossible for the resource to remain allocated outside of the scope it was allocated in
< 1524171286 405963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the technique is most famous in C++, but you can do it in more or less any object-oriented language (and Rust also uses it despite not really being object-oriented)
< 1524171296 59331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it at work, in Java, to make sure that locks are released
< 1524171306 425304 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you use some smart pointer and explicitly transfer ownership)
< 1524171328 84521 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh, they might have a different certificate for code.
< 1524171337 699145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Java finalizers work differently from C++ destructors, but Java has a try () {…} statement intended for RAII that calls close() when the object goes out of scope)
< 1524171358 86767 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: true, and I didn't think of that
< 1524171375 886102 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: indeed the website is fine for me
< 1524171379 390335 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Seems it's the same certificate
< 1524171442 473853 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, must be a caching issue if it's still failing for you
< 1524171576 461173 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it works fine now
< 1524171627 824181 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we'll see later whether it was a bigger issue :)
< 1524171754 216413 :int-e!~noone@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the error message I got did not really indicate an expired certificate so that diagnosis (which I saw somewhere else and didn't verify, not that this excuses anything) may have been wrong as well)
< 1524172988 311390 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524173091 955946 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sort of. it's also a technique to ensure that the constructor has run on your objects. that's what the second I means.
< 1524173121 892357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think the term means that outside C++
< 1524173138 397479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the C++ version is a combination of two techniques
< 1524173147 112934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is partly because most languages don't even support partially-constructed objects)
< 1524173199 452800 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the rustc devs are reimplementing the borrow checker, and I think after that we might be able to get a true goto statement. For now we've just got a lot of reasonably powerful structured control statements with syntax that's slightly less messed up than in ghc.
< 1524173306 481181 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, soon rust will even have breaks out of labeled bare blocks (within the same function body) with values.
< 1524173384 731183 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it already has breaks out of labeled forever blocks (within same function body) with values.
< 1524173452 436387 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think we can ever get breaks through function bodies (like perl and ruby have) in rust, because that would break invariants.
< 1524173540 336654 :moony1339!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, reimplementing the borrow checker
< 1524173544 812966 :moony1339!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it's less picky 
< 1524173573 525816 :moony1339!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :because maybe i'll try rust again. (There were a few situations i found where it said "no" when the code was perfectly fine)
< 1524173598 455593 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony1339: slightly, but part of that is available before the reimplementation
< 1524174272 670725 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1524174684 636172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, this reminds me: apparently Java doesn't have a write barrier when a constructor finishes running
< 1524174700 244061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that if you construct an object and send it to another thread via shared memory fast enough, the other thread can see it nonconstructed
< 1524174713 604354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this struck me as very weird for an allegedly memory-safe language
< 1524175004 991282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1524175063 619143 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what? isn't it most forms of sending to another thread where you're supposed to have a synchronization? that is, there's a mutex or something involved when you pass the object to the other thread. or do you mean the constructor of a thread itself?
< 1524175077 427903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524175087 263478 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what? isn't it most forms of sending to another thread where you're supposed to have a synchronization? that is, there's a mutex or something involved when you pass the object to the other thread. or do you mean the constructor of a thread itself?
< 1524175105 584302 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and is that across java threads?
< 1524175118 517517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: no, I mean something like construct an object and store it in a global variable, a different Java thread reads the variable
< 1524175143 498275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can see it nonconstructed because there's no write barrier between the writes inside the constructor and the write outside the construcotr
< 1524175144 358723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, anyway
< 1524175145 422490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's threading rules are weird
< 1524175192 777997 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um. but is java supposed to be memory safe across multiple threads in that way? because there are languages that are memory-safe in one thread but not memory safe if you access objects shared between threads without locking, namely at least golang and perl5.005 Thread
< 1524175205 979994 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ could count too if you keep some rules about memory safety
< 1524175229 518228 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. basically no pointers or iterators)
< 1524175351 361766 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that only for constructing an object? that is, could it also be memory unsafe if you just access the same object from two threads so one thread observes it in an inconsistent state, without constructing anything?
< 1524175421 936920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the last suggestion is also unsafe but it's less surprising
< 1524175481 276217 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524175481 560395 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host
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< 1524175629 224638 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, I guess that makes a bit of sense
< 1524176216 378842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1524176397 739536 :Storkman!~Storkman@storkman.xyz QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1524178107 38568 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to make up a Magic: the Gathering card having "protection from cards" (it is not protected from tokens, emblems, copied spells, etc). I thought, if it is a creature card then it could have something like how Hunted Horror forces opponent to create creature tokens, now they can block this one; but unlike Hunted Horror those tokens are not protected from this card
< 1524178562 205252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that'd normally be written as "protection from nontokens" but that would work against spell copies too, which isn't what you want
< 1524178578 89111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm, would it work against abilities? if so, would it work against ability copies?
< 1524178611 984293 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that depends on where the ability comes from
< 1524178614 256818 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abilities have a source which may be a card
< 1524178628 109859 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the protection rules says that for an activated ability or triggered ability, you check the properties of the object the ability was on
< 1524178628 214002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the copy has the same source?
< 1524178632 922545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas a spell copy doesn't have one
< 1524178635 835924 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really unintuitive
< 1524178657 579400 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy of an ability?
< 1524178668 167933 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, with those resonator things?
< 1524178670 453471 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things do copy abilities
< 1524178675 26952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1524178684 170766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both activated and triggered abilities can be copied
< 1524178724 78001 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Illusionist's Bracers
< 1524178725 153527 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Illusionist's Bracers \ 2 \ Artifact -- Equipment \ Whenever an ability of equipped creature is activated, if it isn't a mana ability, copy that ability. You may choose new targets for the copy. \ Equip {3} \ GTC-R
< 1524178730 41421 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Rings of Brigh
< 1524178731 95561 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rings of Brighthearth \ 3 \ Artifact \ Whenever you activate an ability, if it isn't a mana ability, you may pay {2}. If you do, copy that ability. You may choose new targets for the copy. \ LRW-R, MPS_KLD-S
< 1524178734 223118 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with those, right?
< 1524178740 665355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1524178755 59415 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, those are some things which copy abilities
< 1524178824 255947 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's more. Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient; Strionic Resonator. but there isn't much more than those.
< 1524178845 260351 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can get into somewhat strange rules situations occasionally.
< 1524178870 430725 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524179262 280964 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1524179284 703446 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :M:tG now has thirteen card types. I remember back when I joined, before time spiral, there were only seven.
< 1524179315 888335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the new card types?
< 1524179337 500911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only some of the types are traditional types, of those some are playable types, of those some are castable types.
< 1524179353 457615 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :300.1. The card types are artifact, conspiracy, creature, enchantment, instant, land, phenomenon, plane, planeswalker, scheme, sorcery, tribal, and vanguard.
< 1524179393 171445 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Planeswalker became a permanent addition since Lorwyn, Tribal temporarily used in the Lorwyn block, Plane and Phenomenon for an older casual multiplayer game mode, Scheme for a newer multiplayer casual game mode.
< 1524179461 34578 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and conspiracy, an even newer game mode used in drafts only
< 1524179464 625989 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least in limited only
< 1524179535 556292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any copy of the entire history of Magic: the Gathering rules? I want to generate diffblames of them
< 1524179554 779270 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those casual card types are well separated from everything so they don't unexpectedly affect things, in particular, cards of those types don't enter the normal zones (library, hand, stack, bf, gy)
< 1524179567 845457 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, but I have a copy of many older comp rules versions
< 1524179584 8133 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the entire history, some versions are skipped, and they don't go back forever of course
< 1524179596 554303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't publish all historical versions of the rules?
< 1524179598 435247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a scam.
< 1524179622 582136 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also look at yawgatog, which has some diffs, but last I've seen the old versions of the rules aren't downloadable
< 1524179635 84749 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I saw Yawgatog but they don't have all of them
< 1524179641 531553 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, typical modern web, everything they publish quickly disappears and you can't find information about old sets
< 1524179651 709125 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you want a copy of the ones I have?
< 1524179693 253518 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, and then I will look to see who has others, to make a complete collection
< 1524179723 223300 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you can try to ask yawgatog directly, he might have it
< 1524179732 745827 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what was your email address?
< 1524179778 998556 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I have no "main" email address, only aliases; I can define a new alias if I need to do so.
< 1524179791 69790 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me tarball up what I have
< 1524179822 67886 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they plain text files?
< 1524179841 856235 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what I am looking for. (If they contain non-ASCII characters I can fix that myself to contain only ASCII)
< 1524179874 227602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I guess a better question would be "zzo38: what email address should I use to send you emails?"
< 1524179890 541497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I normally mentally translate the former question into the latter anyway
< 1524179912 191742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I currently have five email mailboxes, which are collectively the targets of more than five email addresses
< 1524179991 915634 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: some are plain text, one is in pdf format, plus I have some setFAQs which are in word doc or rtf, but those are easier to find elsewhere
< 1524180044 495137 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have some older snapshots of oracle, although reformatted with a script I created, plus a few of yawgatog's older oracle dumps
< 1524180046 367297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only need the plain text ones since those are the only ones which will be useful to me
< 1524180062 898688 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oracle dumps will also be helpful if they are also plain text
< 1524180072 216557 :augur_!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524180077 962948 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the oracle dumps are the large ones really
< 1524180110 415042 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the one that's in pdf is unnecessary, I have the same version as plain text
< 1524180115 26818 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do without Oracle dumps though; I would be fine to keep track of only functional changes of cards anyways, and don't need Un-cards
< 1524180155 442678 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1524180194 379937 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think it's enough to keep track of only functional changes if you want to know the full history of the rules. some changes may not have been functional back then, but are functional if you use different comp rules.
< 1524180225 435173 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK.
< 1524180421 245967 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII versions of the Oracle text for Magic: the Gathering cards in a SQLite database is also something that I would want to have possibly, and it can include a table for history too. If a server would provide such thing, a virtual table module could be made which would access them, and you can give a WHERE clause giving the date, which is automatically consumed, in order to retrieve updates.
< 1524180473 40306 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(However, there are a few things missing from the virtual table mechanism that would be useful to have when doing network access, such as a xInterrupt method, and a way to consume LIMIT/OFFSET clauses.)
< 1524180493 915321 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1524180614 122053 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524180722 256496 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I recommend trying to download scryfall's database. it's not sqlite, but I think they have the data properly structured, and they even documented their api and formats somewhat. I will try to download it later.
< 1524180821 936497 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will look, perhaps. If the API is documented enough possibly it can be interfaced with SQLite (by the virtual table mechanism, although as I said, some things that would be useful for modules that do network access are currently missing).
< 1524180844 143344 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sent
< 1524180884 113670 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1524180888 412958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1524180905 830104 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't see why you need a virtual table, since you want to cache the data locally anyway, so you'd just download the whole database every few month (they explicitly ask for that too to conserve load on their servers or bandwidth),
< 1524180919 221038 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want a virtual table to store the history efficiently, such as backed by an svn repository.
< 1524180928 525210 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, store the history compactly.
< 1524180973 542931 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: OK then, if you can just download it, then you can just do that. Still, if it isn't SQLite, then a virtual table module can be used to convert the format (an alternative way would be to use CSV or whatever, that would work too).
< 1524180986 744476 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you I received the file you sent to me.
< 1524181034 374103 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know if you can download it all in one go. you will probably need multiple queries. but I don't think you'll need to do like 13000 queries for the 13000 cards, they offer batching.
< 1524181068 970945 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you query by modification date though?
< 1524181070 222317 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be trivial to download, but it's still better than to dynamically look up each card, at least if you don't want the images
< 1524181083 124603 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I haven't really looked at the details yet
< 1524181110 385058 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the promising part is the documentation, their interactive website ui, and that they fixed a doc bug I reported
< 1524181215 688923 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524181319 478378 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524181460 355307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Maybe you have an idea about this "universal property" for continuous funtions/derivatives/etc.
< 1524181513 757494 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1524181518 188316 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is that if it is a virtual table, then you can write:  insert into "a" select * from "b";  in order to automatically download everything. (You also have to define the schema, but you only have to do that once. You also need to use .load to load the implementation of the virtual table, of course.)
< 1524181704 502611 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, but why not just download everything anyway and put it in a real table? I mean, for a snapshot. I don't think you can download full history from them.
< 1524181760 88266 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is if you don't include the card images in the "everything". They have card images in multiple resolutions, and all the card images at large res would be a really large amount of data, you probably don't want that.
< 1524181761 89670 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is; "a" is a real table and "b" is a virtual table in the example that I gave. Of course depending on the mechanism, there may be better ways than virtual tables anyways, such as CSV, like I mentioned.
< 1524181804 690108 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you experiment with their api and find something useful, please let me know though. I'm interestd.
< 1524181806 406525 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1524181824 891316 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1524181878 13433 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might also be able to download data from the Oracle, but then you have to do fixups for all the bugs they have with transform cards and flip cards, which magiccards.info and scryfalls and yawgatog all individually fix.
< 1524181906 884305 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the new Oracle doesn't let you download large batches at once, unlike the old one, so you have to do a lot of queries.
< 1524181921 482712 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's better to get the data from yawgatog and scryfall.
< 1524181946 842867 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the cards that is. Getting the comp rules from wizards' webpage directly works fine.
< 1524181949 407081 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that reminds me
< 1524181980 197859 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should check if wizards actually has some of the older comp rules downloadable from their server, even if it's not linked from http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/comprehensiverules
< 1524182081 421990 :augur!~augur@199-241-201-187.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1524182169 547284 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` ls share/mtg/Magic* # zzo38: there's actually one more in the HackEso home
< 1524182170 883155 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :share/mtg/MagicCompRules-20170925.txt \ share/mtg/MagicCompRules.txt \ share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20160408.txt
< 1524182182 632359 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` ls share/mtg/allsets* # zzo38: there's actually one more in the HackEso home
< 1524182183 923701 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :share/mtg/allsets-2016-04-08.txt \ share/mtg/allsets-2016-07-23.zip \ share/mtg/allsets-2017-09-20.txt \ share/mtg/allsets.txt
< 1524182190 712930 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume you're more likely to have the newer versions anyway
< 1524182231 877362 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this older one is still on Wizards' website: http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020170925.txt
< 1524182244 694072 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :older ones might be too, but they keep changing their websites so it's hard to guess the correct URL for them
< 1524182292 975235 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, thank you I will download that one
< 1524182357 323291 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They put spaces in the filename which they shouldn't do, but it isn't a problem downloading it. The problem is when the filenames inside of a ZIP archive or whatever have spaces
< 1524182380 38309 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also found a 2017-07-07 version