00:00:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54914&oldid=54882 * King Ethan * (+207)
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00:41:48 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> shachaf: did you know that technically those are supposed to be *greek* letters" => I don't buy that. I think they're supposed to be latin letters, and also originate in a latin word "ordo", but let me check what Knuth says.
00:42:58 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> This includes nu and omega." => those aren't even similar to latin letters. the only lowercase greek letters that are similar to latin letters are omicron, which looks exactly the same as a latin o, and upsilon, which looks similar to an italic latin v
00:43:18 <shachaf> nu looks like v and omega looks like w
00:44:31 <wob_jonas> only in bad handwriting, in which case you'll have bigger problems than those letters
00:46:02 <APic> Good old Lettes.
00:46:30 <esowiki> [[JR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54915 * King Ethan * (+48) Created page with "JR is a [[Deadfish]] variant with more commands."
00:46:53 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54916&oldid=54915 * King Ethan * (+29)
00:48:50 <HackEso> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
00:49:05 <wob_jonas> Or it might be named from the german word Ordnung
00:49:14 <wob_jonas> which I think is etymologically related
00:50:11 <wob_jonas> but I guess the latin is more likely, because it's an old sign: Knuth says it was introduced by Paul Bachmann in 1894
00:50:35 <wob_jonas> heck, dunno, german could be possible in 1894 already
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00:51:57 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54917&oldid=54916 * King Ethan * (+1163)
00:52:55 <wob_jonas> Knuth-CM doesn't seem to specifically mention whether it's a latin or greek letter; I'll also have to check TAOCP
00:53:20 <wob_jonas> oerjan: why do you think it's supposed to be a greek letter?
00:53:48 <boily> APic: did you partake of a hot-dog latelÿ?
00:53:58 <APic> Certainly not.
00:54:11 * APic can not even contact his Foodstuffsprovider right now 24/7
00:54:34 <APic> Because the Burger-King at the giasinger Bahnhof is currently renovating.
00:54:49 * APic needs to eat some Icecream now
00:58:57 <wob_jonas> TAOCP 1.2.11.1 specifically says it's called "big-oh", which seems to imply that it's not the greek letter, but the latin (or cyrillic or coptic one)
00:59:13 <wob_jonas> it would be called "big-omikron" if it was greek
01:02:22 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54918&oldid=54917 * King Ethan * (+26) /* External resources */
01:04:17 <oerjan> wob_jonas: for the same reason it's called the berenstein bears hth
01:06:34 <oerjan> alternatively, one of my twins stole my keyboard hth
01:06:41 <wob_jonas> I guess if it says "big-oh", we could still decide that it's a cyrillic, coptic, or armenian letter
01:07:02 <oerjan> wikipedia seems to agree with you, anyway.
01:11:08 <esowiki> [[JR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54919&oldid=54918 * King Ethan * (+47) /* External resources */
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06:17:51 <shachaf> fizzie: I saw https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dbj67MPXcAAJD5g.png and was going to ask you whether you got a sword
06:18:02 <shachaf> But apparently I already asked before?
06:18:19 <shachaf> I should download the new logs so I have something more organized than my current hodgepodge.
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10:53:11 <int-e> `` [ "x3" > "x4" ] && echo 1
10:53:19 <int-e> `` [ "x3" < "x4" ] && echo 1
10:53:43 <int-e> I'm confused, what am I doing wrong?
10:54:13 <int-e> something with [ ] vs [[ ]]
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12:14:27 <izabera> for [ they're just redirections
12:14:44 <izabera> so [ x3 > x4 ] is the same as [ x3 ] >x4
12:14:56 <izabera> which returns true because x3 is not an empty string
12:15:24 <izabera> izabera | so [ can special case < > meant to say so [[ can special case < >
12:15:43 <izabera> `` [[ x3 < x4 ]] && echo 1
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13:12:53 <wob_jonas> ``` (( 3 > 4 )) && echo three is more than four; (( 3 < 4 )) && echo four is more than three
13:13:35 <wob_jonas> int-e: you want (( which is a magical syntax analog for let , in the same sense as [[ is a magical syntax analog for test
13:14:04 <wob_jonas> let does arithmetic, test checks file attributes, plus string comparisons for some reason
13:14:29 <izabera> [[ foobar =~ f.*r ]] regex
13:15:24 <wob_jonas> it's all for historical reasons, let and $(()) and (( )) and $[] sprang up to partly replace the really stupid expr command
13:15:33 <izabera> [[ -v var ]] testing if a variable is defined
13:15:42 <wob_jonas> other parts are replaced by test and by shell substitution
13:16:00 <wob_jonas> including the newfangled ${v/p/r} substitution
13:16:01 <int-e> wob_jonas: I want a string comparison though
13:16:07 <int-e> not a numerical one
13:16:20 <izabera> did you know that $(( )) and $[ ] are parsed differently?
13:16:58 <izabera> `` printf %d $[1&123456789>>{31..0}]
13:16:59 <HackEso> 00000111010110111100110100010101
13:17:13 <int-e> `` [ "x3" \< "x4" ] && echo 1
13:17:19 <int-e> `` [ "x3" \> "x4" ] && echo 1
13:18:32 <HackEso> File: x4 \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 1204956 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 1000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2018-04-25 10:53:12.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2018-04-25 10:53:12.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2018-04-25 10:53:12.000000000 +0000 \ Birth: -
13:27:48 <wob_jonas> bash has come a long way since I started using linux. back then it didn't have ${v/p/r}, it didn't have (( )) or [[ ]] , it didn't have |& , it didn't have redirection with the file descriptor chosen automatically and put into a shell variable
13:27:56 <wob_jonas> it didn't have any of these useful modern features
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13:47:40 <FireFly> I thought ${//} and (( )) and [[ ]] were all quite old
13:50:00 <izabera> i believe they're at least bash 2.x
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16:02:59 <Taneb> Apparently no-one is here
16:03:11 <int-e> my guess is that they saw the topic
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16:05:11 <Taneb> Ooh, that's conceivable
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17:42:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international millipede for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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18:03:35 <arseniiv> I’ve written out some notes on my dialect of that unnamed lazy functional language for a person possibly non-acquainted with FP, so these may be of some interest to someone somewhere: https://gist.github.com/arseniiv/811949865aabe30e114ab01088cfb8d7
18:06:00 <arseniiv> also maybe you could suggest a more informative example on evaluation. Mine could look uneasy
18:06:26 <arseniiv> also haven’t anyone remember yet how it could be called? ::)
18:07:06 <arseniiv> maybe I should create a page on the wiki…
18:07:43 <arseniiv> (but you see my English is strange-looking. It’s because I don’t know it)
18:30:45 <HackEso> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. or the neighbours.
18:31:02 <fungot> arseniiv: this makes it so inefficient and frustrating for all but the first.... think there's an official scheme48 debian package.)) the reader gymnastics
18:31:03 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
18:33:13 <HackEso> Logic is just another way the true Scotsman is keeping you down.
18:35:29 <HackEso> bicategory//Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
18:37:59 <HackEso> category-helpdesk//category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
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20:34:51 <wob_jonas> "<izabera> i believe they're at least bash 2.x" => yes. I used bash before 2.0. bash was one of the first unix software I got familiar with.
20:35:55 <wob_jonas> we did have ${v##p} and ${v%%p} and ${v#p} and ${v%p} though, so I could use that for string manip
20:37:11 <wob_jonas> "<arseniiv> I’ve written out some notes on my dialect of that unnamed lazy functional language" => have you named it Nora's Nailcare 2: Reverse Polish Full Movie HD yet? Or is that name inappropriate for a language that isn't stack-based?
20:46:08 <arseniiv> I have seen some of Nora’s Nailcare, seems there’s a very different story…
20:48:37 <Taneb> wob_jonas, oh goodness is there a spinoff
20:48:46 <arseniiv> I suggest naming it FLFLFL (feverishly loving, forever lazy functional language)
20:48:59 <shachaf> `? Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
20:49:00 <HackEso> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
20:49:43 <shachaf> That movie is rated 3.7/10 on imdb.com.
20:49:49 <shachaf> I kind of want to watch it.
20:51:11 <Taneb> shachaf, Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster?
20:51:24 <Taneb> It wasn't very enjoyable to me
20:51:57 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you download it?
20:52:01 <wob_jonas> We need a different name then. But a pun about a curry restaurant would be cheap. Maybe something about a closure of Nora's spa?
20:52:15 <Taneb> I think I was streaming it
20:52:21 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off to bed now
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20:52:41 <shachaf> Taneb: You gotta download it real fast.
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21:06:11 <arseniiv> it’d be neat if there was something about combinators
21:06:34 <arseniiv> *combinator, as in “any combinator”
21:09:07 <arseniiv> oh, sometime ago I’ve misheard “please come by” in a song as “please combine”, isn’t it a pretty name?
21:10:12 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
21:10:21 <Cale> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=458
21:12:09 <shachaf> Cale: so do you know whether there's a universal property that characterizes derivatives twh
21:13:47 <shachaf> Is Super Mega back on a regular schedule?
21:14:42 <shachaf> Also do you want to be on ysaclist?
21:27:09 <int-e> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/strips/ggmain20180425e.jpg has a cute spider. A spider with cutlery. I wonder whether it has/will actually feature/d in the comics...
21:28:51 <Cale> I don't know of a universal property that characterises derivatives...
21:29:17 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_algebra
21:29:22 <Cale> you might start there though
21:30:07 <arseniiv> (cont.: also we could rename my proposed `seq` (to make IO usable) to `please`: please (output 0x34) (output 0x32) // 0x34 = succ (succ 0x32), 0x32 = …)
21:30:30 <shachaf> Cale: We had a proposal here the other day.
21:30:34 <Cale> That sort of gives you some kind of arrow-theoretical law to be satisfied, which you could probably generalise
21:31:05 <shachaf> For a class of functions G : X -> Y
21:31:13 <shachaf> Given a function f : X -> Y and a point x : X
21:31:45 <shachaf> The best G-approximation of f at x is a function g0 : G such that for all g : G, there's a neighborhood A of x, such that for all x' in A, d(g0(x'), f(x')) <= d(g(x'), f(x'))
21:32:17 <shachaf> And then you can let G be constant functions to get continuity and affine functions to get derivatives.
21:32:41 <shachaf> I think it doesn't work in any metric space but maybe for R -> R
21:33:28 <Cale> Not sure that works...
21:34:43 <shachaf> Well, there's presumably some sense in which derivatives are "the best linear approximation around a point". How would you characterize one linear approximation being better than another?
21:34:50 <Cale> What about something like f(x) = x when x is rational and f(x) = -x otherwise. This is continuous at 0, but won't quite satisfy that condition.
21:35:35 <shachaf> So the definition you get for f continuous at x is...
21:36:18 <shachaf> for all y : Y, there's a neighborhood A of x, such that for all x' in A, d(f(x'), f(x)) <= d(f(x'), y)
21:36:44 <Cale> Oh, sorry, I misread, maybe that does work
21:37:43 <Cale> You get to pick the neighbourhood based on the other function which is challenging the approximation-hood of g0.
21:38:54 <shachaf> So I think this works for your function.
21:39:29 <shachaf> It's a pretty unusual definition of continuity, though.
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21:40:46 <shachaf> You can pick A so that |f(x')| will be very small, smaller than |f(x') - y|
21:43:00 <Cale> It just reduces to the usual definition
21:44:03 <shachaf> I'd normally expect something like "for each neighborhood of f(x)"
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