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05:52:58 <esowiki> [[Schmuu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55308&oldid=55230 * Schmuui * (+0) /* List of types */
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10:10:10 <wob_jonas> Argh, IRC is biting me in my back. I'm trying to find a bug report and patch from years ago, but there's no trace in emails, it's all been on some non-logged irc channel.
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14:16:13 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ghci: command not found
15:01:06 <int-e> so how do I do ghci -e 'import Data.List' -e 'interact (unlines . transpose . lines)' with ordinary command line tools? (this is a transpose; input abc \ def should become ad \ be \ cf ... it's okay if it only works for rectangular inputs)
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15:27:57 <esowiki> [[Tamalbolge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55309 * Kaa-kun * (+39) Redirected page to [[Totally Accurate Malbolge]]
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17:03:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55310&oldid=55290 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2891) Turing co
17:05:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55311&oldid=55310 * Plokmijnuhby * (-56)
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17:07:59 <ais523> here's a problem that came up at work (twice, in different contexts): we're trying to effectively attach an extra field to an object in Java (in the sense that we want to store extra information that's specific to the object)
17:08:22 <ais523> the obvious way to do that is to use a map from objects to field values, so you can store and retrieve the value via a set or get on the map
17:08:35 <ais523> however, the garbage collection properties of this aren't the same
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17:09:25 <ais523> so what you actually do is use a weak map (e.g. WeakHashMap) and then, if the object becomes otherwise unused, the weak reference to it in the map key will break and the map will deallocate the value in response
17:09:46 <ais523> but! this doesn't work 100% correctly in all cases, because if the value refers to the key, you'll get a memory leak as the weak reference in question will never break
17:10:06 <ais523> the challenge is to find something that's 100% true to the original in terms of GC properties
17:10:23 <ais523> this feels close enough to esoprogramming that I thought someone here might be able to help :-)
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17:16:59 <zzo38> Weak map is also the thing I thought to use in JavaScript to add external private data to an object.
17:17:09 <ais523> FWIW I suspect that this is impossible, but I really hope it's possible as it'd solve one minor problem and one major problem
17:17:18 <ais523> zzo38: does JavaScript have weak references?
17:17:29 <FireFly> It has a WeakMap as of ES6 I believe
17:17:31 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55312&oldid=55307 * Plokmijnuhby * (-3) Some slight bugfixes required, but mostly correct.
17:17:38 <ais523> although in this case you probably /could/ just set a field on the object directly
17:17:49 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55313&oldid=55312 * Plokmijnuhby * (-89)
17:18:01 <FireFly> sure, but that isn't safe in the general case for the obvious reasons :p
17:18:25 <ais523> clearly you need some sort of language-implemented namespacing, then it could be safe
17:18:44 <ais523> or even better, a way to generate fresh identifiers
17:18:53 <ais523> that are unequal to any other identifier and can't be typed in the program
17:19:12 <FireFly> You kinda can these days, there's a Symbol type nowadays
17:19:37 <FireFly> you can still ask for all properties (both string and symbol keys) of an object, so you can still access it that way
17:19:47 <FireFly> so it isn't entirely transparent, but for practical purposes it works the way you want it to
17:20:03 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, the WeakMap object does that. And yes you can use Symbol too, to create your own public names. Both of these are useful for different purposes.
17:20:04 <FireFly> but hmm.. the Java problem is an interesting one
17:22:07 <ais523> it feels like a chicken-and-egg problem, the ways I can come up with to do it all seem to involve being able to do it already :-(
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17:23:49 <ais523> come to think of it, this problem is equivalent to "given two objects A, B, create a relationship between them such that A cannot be freed before B is, without otherwise preventing GC operations on them"
17:25:03 <FireFly> It's a gnarly problem that I feel must've come up before in Java contexts and have had a lot of thought put to it
17:25:33 <ais523> there is a statement in WeakHashMap's documentation specifically mentioning that this case doesn't work ;-)
17:25:45 <ais523> so it must have been thought of before
17:25:52 <ais523> but it's hard to find any potential solutions to it that may exist
17:26:03 <FireFly> ...but helpfully not providing any further hints of what *does* work, if anything..
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17:41:07 <ais523> aha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeron
17:41:27 <ais523> it's a GC primitive of its own, with a name
17:41:49 <ais523> not mentioned in the Wikipedia article, but mentioned elsewhere, is that this can't be done in Java
17:46:01 <FireFly> Interesting how tables with weak keys in Lua automatically support ephemeron semantics
17:48:42 <FireFly> I suppose if your tables and the weakness of references in keys/values are primitive language features, it kind of makes sense to only trace the value if the corresponding key is found to be alive already
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18:31:38 <wob_jonas> did I just miss ais523, or did his client just disconnect temporarily?
18:33:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: can you fix wisdom/wlcom , or delete it if it's unnecessary?
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18:41:27 <int-e> . o O ( Yes is the answer to all tautological questions. )
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18:59:15 <quintopia> no yes is a program that outputs an affirmative response
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19:04:18 <HackEso> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \
19:05:26 <\oren\> New new canonical way to express date and time is SMDH
19:06:06 <\oren\> `` date '+%s %m %d %h'
19:06:14 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %m %d %h'
19:06:28 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %m %d %H'
19:06:53 <\oren\> `` date '+%S %M %m %d %y %H'
19:09:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: meh, it's not much worse than the %a %b %d %H:%M:%S %Z %Y format that date uses by default
19:23:48 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55314 * ZM * (+3525) Created page with "'''Andromeda''' is a two-dimensional, queue-based programming language in which, apart from the usual direction-changing arrows (which also serve additional purposes), there i..."
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19:27:09 <int-e> wob_jonas: how would you transpose a text file in a shell script? I.e., abc \ def should become ad \ be \ cf (I ended up with ghci -e 'import Data.List' -e 'interact (unlines . transpose . lines)')
19:27:50 <int-e> err s/file// ... I wanted this as part of a pipe
19:29:02 <Vorpal> Found an interesting behaviour with SPF: it breaks with mail forwarders like foo@users.sourceforge.net (why was I messing with my old sourceforge address? It was the password reset email for a very old account).
19:29:16 <Vorpal> What happens is that if the origin host has a strict SPF policy, and the receiver verifies and enforces that, it will reject the forwarded mail
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19:29:27 <Vorpal> That isn't all though: The reject mail that the MTA of sourceforge sends back to the sender also contains the email that SF tried to forward to, breaking the privacy setting of the user
19:32:02 <int-e> Vorpal: so how many accounts have you stolen by now?
19:32:59 <Vorpal> As a side note, I was sending test mails from the same email that I was forwarding to, leading to some really confusing errors messages, until I figured out what was going on.
19:33:46 <Vorpal> but I managed to restore my access to that old old gmail account I used back in the day. Apparently I got about 4 emails to it after I last logged in in 2010 or so
19:34:46 <int-e> but I guess that happens when it's hard to guess and never used in public
19:34:55 <Vorpal> nah, well unless you count what google did trying to recruit FOSS developers a few years ago
19:35:38 <Vorpal> and apparently I had registered a non-commercial intel compiler license on it too, since there were some stuff related to that too
19:36:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: re transpose, I don't know, but I believe there's a question on PPCG for that or something similar
19:36:22 <Vorpal> these days I run my own mail server, and use a separate mail for each account, good thing too, the debian bug tracker leaks emails, so that one is aliased to /dev/null now
19:36:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: also, I think this year's IOCCC has a program that can do it
19:36:42 <wob_jonas> (it actually rotates, so you might have to throw in a tac)
19:36:47 <zzo38> I also run my own mail server and use a separate alias for each one
19:37:23 <Vorpal> zzo38: does it have gopher based browser interface? XD
19:37:34 <Vorpal> (note: mine doesn't, yet)
19:37:41 <zzo38> No; it uses only SMTP
19:37:59 <Vorpal> what about accessing your email? no IMAP or POP?
19:38:46 <zzo38> The server is the same computer I mainly use, so it can be accessed directly.
19:39:06 <Vorpal> int-e: Maildir is the superior format
19:42:10 <zzo38> I am just using mbox format though, which is what Heirloom-mailx uses.
19:42:31 <zzo38> (And I programmed the status bar I use on my computer to display how many messages there are)
19:46:13 <Vorpal> Maildir is much more well designed: no file locking issues, no issues with magic markers in the files
19:46:41 <zzo38> Well, I have not had a problem
19:47:39 <zzo38> How to do maildir format anyways?
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19:57:04 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55315&oldid=55314 * ZM * (+142) Categories
19:57:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55316&oldid=55159 * ZM * (+16) /* A */
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22:18:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: They sort of have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain now to deal with SPF and forwarders. The tl;dr is that it's a way for the forwarder to sign a statement saying SPF validation for the original email passed, and then if the recipient trusts the forwarder they can accept it even if it wouldn't pass SPF.
22:21:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have an @iki.fi forwarding address (IKI ry being a Finnish non-profit to promote Internet use), and it's got similar SPF issues. Some of the people running it have very strong opinions about how SPF has broken the traditional email model.
22:23:03 <fizzie> Though the battle seems to be pretty much lost. :/ A lot of the email I send via my own zem.fi SMTP server (e.g. to Hotmail, Gmail) gets caught by spam filters, and I suspect that's because they just treat it as suspicious to get email from a domain/server that doesn't send much email. Certainly no other "check for problems" system has figured out anything else wrong with the messages.
22:24:02 <fizzie> (And that's with passing SPF and DKIM checks, and TLS enabled.)
23:58:07 <zzo38> I am not using SPF and DKIM, although I think I probably do not need it. (If I somehow do need it then I could add it, I suppose)