< 1527206826 708520 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1527207412 657219 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1527208053 231907 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1527208454 367833 :Naergon!~Naergon@94.197.120.99.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1527208591 361246 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1527209340 328222 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527210166 479489 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1527211447 915934 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION semaphores bonsøœirjan < 1527211654 831632 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: CONTAINMENT CHICKEN < 1527212132 996648 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boopsily < 1527214045 789968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to only partially copy a ZIP file from a floppy disk onto my computer. How can I use that partial ZIP file? > 1527214707 365352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Along and Across14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55340&oldid=55339 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+6) 10/* Semantics */ Looks like an error < 1527215961 893802 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1527216206 332318 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527216288 769390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out that bsdtar will read it. < 1527216340 348656 :Naergon!~Naergon@94.197.120.99.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527216759 348577 :Guest33130!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1 < 1527216850 490036 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1527216958 790629 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tyssahehwfvbgrhg JOIN :#esoteric < 1527217471 711484 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1527217518 568126 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'll answer that question then <-- and thus i finally learn what your family name is... at least i _think_ i would have remembered that if i'd seen it before. < 1527217658 74408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas has certainly linked to his website here before < 1527217719 866624 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1527217750 21720 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's _anti_-memorable, then. < 1527217930 972752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly is for me. < 1527218620 811699 :friendlyGoat!~Jonah@74-37-68-34.dsl1.ekgv.ca.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527218627 13450 :friendlyGoat!~Jonah@74-37-68-34.dsl1.ekgv.ca.frontiernet.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527221400 673724 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1527221656 873002 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527222392 249665 :Galaxtone!~IceChat9@cable-54-120.sssnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1527222398 303742 :Galaxtone!~IceChat9@cable-54-120.sssnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test changes shows Schmuu! within the code block < 1527222406 554003 :Galaxtone!~IceChat9@cable-54-120.sssnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but save changes shows it outside the code block < 1527223037 69492 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527223430 612698 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Galaxtone: what? < 1527225045 361354 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1527225520 351207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So recursion depth is bounded and the other looping mechanism is also bounded. :-( < 1527225533 730220 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I wrote http://slbkbs.org/kak/bf.kak < 1527225914 643492 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what? < 1527225926 554774 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( shachaf knows Jelly? ) < 1527225934 508034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1527225950 158082 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just remembered there was some esolang that had a character set for 256 byes. < 1527225953 56464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1527225968 917206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably more than one. I looked on PPCG until I found an example. < 1527226008 474179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this is that editor I was talking about. < 1527226049 509476 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's very common for golfing languages made for PPCG < 1527226072 72894 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1527226251 520860 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's just forever that isn't truly forever? < 1527226313 53943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, this one just does 1000000 steps. < 1527226556 755526 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, if you add ^L to each step you can see the program as it runs. This is much better. < 1527226793 949151 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( now use it to play Lost Kingdom ) < 1527227542 562553 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527227615 351828 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527227617 200118 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1527228674 452947 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1527229631 47028 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1527229680 848398 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit < 1527230116 160418 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@145.255.8.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527231186 262954 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527232907 400546 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1527233927 644397 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527234290 328250 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527234330 63976 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tyssahehwfvbgrhg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1527234584 788077 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1527234728 531701 :friendlyGoat!~Jonah@74-37-68-34.dsl1.ekgv.ca.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527234731 591288 :friendlyGoat!~Jonah@74-37-68-34.dsl1.ekgv.ca.frontiernet.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527235238 756049 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when I tell Excel to save a worksheet as unicode text, it actually encodes it in utf-16. That was confusing. I expected utf-8 and didn't understand why my program wasn't working. < 1527235601 527759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :standards-complaint < 1527235840 386468 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, you can set up an action to run when something happens and then nothing else happens for some amount of time. < 1527235854 793884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would technically make it TC, I suppose. < 1527236373 173896 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1527236396 594838 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I actually have a split profile on Stack Exchange, with my real name showing up on MathOverflow and cstheory SE and math SE, but b_jonas on most other sites. Only my real name is the default, I can't easily change that, and I haven't bothered setting it to b_jonas on all SE sites. < 1527236446 483289 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, multiple esolangs with such character sets, Jelly is one of them < 1527236546 514558 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, a purist esolang would just assign meaning to bytes without caring about what character to represent them; or evenand possibly even have some pretty human-writable multi-character representation that's them compiled to compressed code for the language, with arithmetic compression so it isn't even structured in bytes < 1527236566 494025 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know about jelly because ais523 programs in it < 1527236596 747258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course those characters exist to display bytes that have meanings independent of the characters. < 1527236596 780755 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know much more about it than that it has that strange character encoding and some really strange rules with lots of heuristics and exceptions < 1527236628 832721 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, but why would you have to display them as single characters? < 1527236644 234588 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could display them as very short sequences of ascii characters instead. < 1527236658 499365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in my case, it's beause I wanted a compact way to display unprintable bytes. < 1527236692 857558 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: cp437 is _almost_ good for that, except that 0x20, 0x00, and 0xFF look exactly the same < 1527236745 72369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wanted newline not to break the line in this case. < 1527236811 94046 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oerjan: Oh, you can set up an action to run when something happens and then nothing else happens for some amount of time." => is that still about that editor with try-catch as the only control construct? < 1527236842 72005 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: cp437 has a printable character for newline. some sort of music note or sun or whatever. there's one for \r and one for \n . < 1527236893 868182 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah no, inverted hollow circle for \n and musical note for \r < 1527237190 198646 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bitmap font actually has the cp437 values for most of the ascii control characters, and the cp437 values drawn in thin lines for the high control characters, only they're hard to show because most terminals and font engines won't display those characters, because the control characters aren't supposed to be drawn as a glyph from the font. < 1527237217 939903 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a feature, as in, when you print a newline, you want them to break the line instead of show an inverted circle. < 1527237233 917803 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could still display them with custom code, but that's not helpful. < 1527237256 662276 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it would be easier for the font to just copy those glyphs on some other unused characters. < 1527237344 287636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, xterm in byte encoding (as opposed to utf-8 encoding; xterm wants the font encoding to match the terminal encoding, which is really silly) uses a few of the control character places in the font as line-drawing characters that you access in the terminal with ANSI control codes to shift to the alternate character set. < 1527237807 281841 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1527238123 169161 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1527238141 378129 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1527238972 928925 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: why would you use anything except pure UTF-8 these days though in a terminal? < 1527238979 850480 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-16 perhaps on windows < 1527239017 352059 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: these days I do use utf-8 in the terminal, but like five or ten years ago that wasn't so obvious < 1527239042 190054 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was slow to adapt utf-8 because people kept changing character encodings and saying that you should use the next one because it's the best thing every five years < 1527239099 454170 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it started with iso-646-* national variants before my time, then cp437/cwi, then cp850 on dos, then cp1252 on windows and iso-8859-2 on linux. after the third character set, you don't want to change to the next hot big thing everyone's talking about, just in case it won't stick < 1527239133 254680 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for a while I ran them mixed, had both iso-8859-2 and utf-8 terminals mixed, then eventually I started using only utf-8 < 1527239141 117070 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1527239156 267712 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for terminals, that is. I still have some files encoded differently. < 1527239159 830360 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think i went utf-8 like 15 years ago or so < 1527239188 994753 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was on mac os 9 back then, so probably had some MacRoman too < 1527239272 957091 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, google chrome finds "a" when I search for "å" in a page < 1527239275 916484 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with ä and ö < 1527239304 255032 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it is related to LC_COLLATE < 1527239442 593761 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1527239446 259266 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC_ALL did nothing < 1527240850 516105 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Finland there was a brief moment of ISO-8859-15 between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8. < 1527241008 73613 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hi! < 1527241053 573451 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1527241105 157142 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've booted to Windows (10) for the first time since November 2016, and it's having considerable trouble getting all the updates installed. < 1527241143 569191 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ran into an issue the other week, where I wouldn't get any user accounts listed on the login screen < 1527241150 599118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I booted into safe mode, where it worked < 1527241169 231331 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fix was to go to safe mode, open msconfig and change to "normal startup" < 1527241197 414355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on my fourth reboot now, and it somehow managed to start two different update mechanisms (Windows Update, and some sort of more dist-upgrade-ish thing) at the same time. < 1527241213 961809 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1527241255 868176 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah this will probably take a while, always does with windows < 1527241560 106306 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also a little bit awkward, because every time it reboots I have to unplug the monitor's USB cable, otherwise the keyboard won't work in GRUB prompt and I can't select Windows. < 1527241637 365616 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: luckily nobody adapted iso-8859-16 here, because the Euro was never introduced in Hungary, there was no such unicode character split as with the romanian s with comma, none of the missing letters used in Hungarian, and anyway, people used the new version of cp1250 instead. < 1527241691 538452 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, when MS added new characters including the euro sign and the s with comma to cp1250 and cp1252, they effectively created a new character set and possible confusion because they didn't give it a new name < 1527241712 927002 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of cheating, so I guess there is an extra step I didn't mention too < 1527241798 178466 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course cp1250 differs more from 8859-2 than cp1252 does from 8859-1, with some characters moved, but those didn't impact Hungarian texts < 1527241842 335605 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... it's complicated < 1527241945 534647 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you can count cwi as a separate character set from cp437, and I think there were some legacy character sets used on old pre-IBM-PC computer sets that put a few accented letters to the ascii printable range but doesn't match the iso-646 assignment < 1527242051 350199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in the university newsgroups there was a running joke to say "onneksi ääkköset eivät ole enää ongelma" ("fortunately are no longer an issue"), every time they in fact were an issue, which they had been with a steady frequency for decades. < 1527242133 381386 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fi:aakkoset = en:alphabet, so people use "ääkköset" to refer to the non-English parts.) < 1527242311 842498 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :vowel harmony is tg < 1527244421 795650 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1527244845 777957 :KawaiiBunny!~IceChat9@2601:18a:c401:3d15:b5b5:c264:24ba:f488 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527244885 538973 :KawaiiBunny!~IceChat9@2601:18a:c401:3d15:b5b5:c264:24ba:f488 PART :#esoteric < 1527246658 717555 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527246945 307416 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --finnish 10 < 1527246946 267199 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ympyrkeämme lojuvallanne imaamistani saansaanjohtamaustani uurtumaavanaan purjoita radallemäksyttä viertämilleni kohtaisemmissaaverkeamme jeenpaikaamin < 1527246967 358733 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some bots[who?][weasel words] seem to think it's unnecessary. < 1527247033 618991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, I never thought about the fact that sorting networks don't need decidable equality between elements. < 1527247037 482714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's neat. < 1527247042 516208 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527247399 298661 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wait?! < 1527247538 334382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just need min/max < 1527247559 212255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1527247560 354129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can sort real numbers for example. < 1527247603 324414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I didn't get the point that the outputs may be represented differently from the inputs. < 1527247634 372921 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1527247735 326629 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program computing min(a,b) can be different from the program computing a and the program computing b. < 1527247742 834925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in fact, it has to be different in some cases) < 1527247835 335017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean you might have a different converging sequence or something < 1527247842 318224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1527247902 446282 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can also sort lists of streams, where that isn't true < 1527247906 807746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :My confusion was that I thought that the output of a sorting network is a permutation of the inputs, and I didn't see how that could be subverted. < 1527247913 667806 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And you still don't have decidable equality) < 1527247934 532287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, the same is true for streams < 1527248002 288787 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking an intensional perspective here. If this were Haskell I would be looking at the thunks. < 1527248012 183791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that depends on how you represent them < 1527248017 407816 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I see what you mean < 1527248018 919286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which a pure program cannot observe. < 1527248040 271724 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was the confusion I had too, which is why this was surprising < 1527248110 630821 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So programs that use decidable equality are getting more information in a sense than sorting networks are < 1527248154 454933 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can they do the sort in fewer comparisons? < 1527248173 858022 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've asked a similar question before, about <=> < 1527248471 132408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also what happens when you use a sorting network on a lattice? < 1527248504 163467 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the swap operation computes inf and sup < 1527248741 916609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, also neat: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/25485/does-the-0-1-principle-apply-to-merge-networks < 1527249302 955921 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Hmm, sorting networks are meaningful for distributive lattices. For arbitrary lattices, different sorting network may give different results: https://paste.debian.net/1026562/ < 1527249484 192697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will the output always be sorted even in an arbitrary lattice? I don't know. < 1527249535 338386 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming one uses a sorting network that is valid for total orders) < 1527250520 102817 :Guest27988!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles NICK :ocharles < 1527251647 972872 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'd like sorting functions (in libraries) and sorted search trees that guarantee to work for non-transitive comparison operators too, in the sense that they don't segfault or otheriwse run into undefined behavior, don't lose or duplicate items, and < 1527251711 621692 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can divide the input set to a lower and a higher part such that the comparison function compares each item of the lower part as less than each item of the upper part, then the sorter function will sort each of the items of the lower part before each item of the upper part, and the search tree will find an item in the lower part if you search < 1527251711 699059 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : for an item in the lower part. < 1527251835 73391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can imagine that as if you made a new comparison function that is actually transitive and antisymmetric, and whenever it says an item is less than the other, then the original (non-transitive comparison function) also say the first item is less than the second; and then the sort and search tree must behave as if you sorted by the new comparison < 1527251835 171627 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : function, but they can sort equal elements in any way. < 1527251886 551897 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would be useful so that if you want to run untrusted code in a sandbox, and that code wants to sort with a custom comparison function, you still get meaningful results. Also useful for trusted but buggy comparison functions. < 1527251941 593512 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most search trees and sort functions actually satisfy that, but a few don't, notably very old versions of perl had a sort function that can segfault for an inconsistent comparison function. (Current perl still has some problems with sorting, but not to the segfault levels.) < 1527251985 252391 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for some libraries, including the C++ standard library and the rust standard library, it's quite possible that all the library authors had to do was to write this as a guarantee in the docs for future compatibility, without changing a line of the actual code. < 1527252007 197998 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll have to look at the details of some of the libraries to check if that's true.) < 1527252072 94366 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: for C++ it could vary between implementations < 1527252085 757148 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember at least one std::sort that is a modified quicksort < 1527252095 580467 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure. < 1527252098 468754 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one that was insertion sort based < 1527252132 753601 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: anyway, I < 1527252156 643862 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm* pretty sure your comparison function is supposed to produce a consistent ordering according to most language specifications and documentation < 1527252157 513247 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when sqlite had the wrong comparison function, it did lose an item after all (but it still didn't segfault, which is nice). < 1527252167 153057 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, and that's the problem, or so I say. < 1527252182 417933 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language specs shouldn't make that requirement. < 1527252199 37376 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you are doing it wrong if int strcmp(char* a, char* b) { return random(); } < 1527252245 315437 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the use for supporting something like that < 1527252349 960239 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes it is probably useful to ensure it doesn't crash (for the sandbox case), but apart from that? Eh < 1527252472 23950 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: also what do you think of languages like Python that provides a key function as opposed to a comparison function to the sort method? < 1527252496 41760 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess you could still overide __cmp__ or something like that on your type instead < 1527252506 655735 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the key function is a nice convenience, but sometimes you find it's not enough < 1527252568 480734 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless of course you can define custom comparison functions on your own types and use them as a key, but in that case you have the original problem of non-transitive user-defined comparison functions. < 1527252607 684726 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it does have __ge__, __gt__, __lt__ and so on < 1527252619 260962 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :__cmp__ was apparently a python 2 thing < 1527252646 549352 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: which apart from "don't crash from inside sandbox" I maintain isn't a problem < 1527252665 678641 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you elucidate why it is useful to support it? < 1527252696 420897 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: maybe I've just seen too many buggy comparison functions. some are still out there and cause surprising bugs (though not segfaults most of the time) < 1527252734 517379 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: but mostly I'm saying this because many of those functions could guarantee this freely, because the implementation already satisfies the stonger guarantee, just doesn't document it; < 1527252761 170944 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly it should in fact raise some sort of exception if it detects that the comparison method is inconsistent, but I think it is bad to just quietly accept it < 1527252764 745905 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and some languages like haskell and rust and perl are already striving for the goal that they don't segfault when you write bad code unless you do certain unsafe things, < 1527252807 916275 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then the list is possibly not sorted as you intended and you might not notice it < 1527252828 941245 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus in some of them you can also have values that aren't copiable, so it's likely already either impossible for the sort function to duplicate a value, or else it actually breaks the language guarantees if it does duplicate a value; < 1527252872 836633 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus doing a wrong sort where an item is duplicated or lost can already cause security bugs or segfaults in user code that uses the result. < 1527252878 64832 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will uncopyable (or unmovable) values ever work with a sort function? < 1527252904 391148 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"possibly it should in fact raise some sort of exception if it detects that the comparison method is inconsistent, but I think it is bad to just quietly accept it " => perhaps, but you can't really strive for that, because in general it's impossible to check that the comparison function is consistent < 1527252904 797951 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: sorting incorrectly can also lead to security bugs < 1527252919 383320 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they're still movable or swappable, just not copiable < 1527252945 565161 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like ConcurrentModificationException in java, it reports that on a best effort < 1527252983 317933 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: even even trying to detect a bad sort function would likely make performance worse, or at least you'd have to change the code of the sort function < 1527252998 597526 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just making the stronger guarantee is actually free in half of the functions, so you should just do it there < 1527253020 794738 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1527253026 907622 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would also make it clear by contrast where it's not guaranteed and where you can get segfaults < 1527253048 213359 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should check if perl's numeric sort is actually buggy in the way I think it is, and report a proper bug if it is < 1527253064 118045 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I think it does use an inconsistent function and that can cause security problems < 1527253074 229258 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wild idea though: Have a type or annotation system strong enough to be able to express contracts like "this is a sort function", then enforce running quickcheck like tests on functions that end up being used that way < 1527253082 188170 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :as part of the build process < 1527253083 931923 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I should test that for myself, and report if it's bad, or convince myself that it's correct if it is correct < 1527253106 558567 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: quickcheck functions aren't enough when sort functions can be wrong in very sneaky ways < 1527253111 694932 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1527253134 803082 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a good reason why that sort bug I found in sqlite wasn't found for so many years, despite that it's been present < 1527253148 288374 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: anyway, an incorrect ordering could still lead to bad bugs, even if elements aren't duplicated or lost < 1527253163 948362 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, it could < 1527253198 657551 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of those bugs are bugs that programmers should learn to avoid, which is a different thing we should spread to them < 1527253231 321963 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527253249 90637 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1527253419 395881 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sure, for those few functions where it wouldn't be easy to guarantee the behavior for wrong sort functions, yes, keep them and document that. There are really those algorithms. < 1527253515 544528 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/those a/such a/ < 1527255693 656887 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yplkppsehnqcmxaj JOIN :#esoteric < 1527256667 505059 :qob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527256778 888669 :qob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Client Quit < 1527257145 433977 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1527257498 820911 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ah yes. now I'm getting the GPDR spam, from websites I haven't used for ages and where it's not even clear why they even try to collect data: < 1527257662 542441 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular from (or in the name of) ARM, who ask to register on their site before you can download the technical reference manuals of their product, a completely ridiculous requirement < 1527260206 222336 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ARM thing is terrible. < 1527260241 338042 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :NVIDIA had something similar around CUDA SDKs. (Just got their GDPR spam the other day.) < 1527260999 343441 :user24!~void@p200300886901BF0095B8214DE078FBA6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1527261457 26543 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :gitlab was interesting, got a mail I had to accept their TOS again before I could continue using the service, blocking me at login. < 1527261466 812736 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :not explaining what they changed < 1527261492 596507 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a law that you must publish a diff < 1527264520 175897 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: and there's https://www2.opengroup.org/ogsys/catalog/t101 < 1527264640 103955 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1527266538 52046 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1527266594 675984 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55341&oldid=55338 5* 03Soaku 5* (+11) 10Added Pepe < 1527266764 718907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another possibility for font encoding would be for the high byte of the font encoding to match the byte used after ESC ( to select that character set. Due to some things it is not work exactly, but it is close. That also allows you to define additional character sets. < 1527266862 816697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This also enables access to some of the characters that are not available in Unicode. When Unicode is selected, a different font would be used.) < 1527267318 919957 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1527267344 383052 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1527267374 137640 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: isn't the point of unicode to have all characters? < 1527267501 696748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe, but it doesn't. Unicode is a mess anyways. (Furthermore, the X core font system can't even properly implement astral characters; I have suggested how to fix this by use of a EnableLigatures flag, though) < 1527267968 557637 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: who uses X server font rendering these days though? I thought every modern program rendered text client side, using freetype, pango and so on < 1527267990 584567 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, X will be replaced by wayland within a few years < 1527268090 227698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still use X < 1527268124 65670 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I, but I bet it will only be for a couple more years < 1527268315 149738 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not intend to replace it; I still want to use xterm and bitmap fonts and Xaw and so on < 1527268375 16786 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, there will be xwayland to run X programs under wayland < 1527268390 313750 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527268433 560967 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will Wayland even work without a desktop environment installed like X does? < 1527268514 741169 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :X also supports a default background stipple (although you need the -retro option, but I think it should be the default); I don't know if Wayland requires a full picture instead < 1527268538 519287 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just take a picture of it? < 1527268566 581181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could, but it just takes up a lot of memory < 1527268601 695368 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is rather ugly I think < 1527268625 477387 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I assume you can run with a window manager in wayland < 1527268692 593191 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it supports window managers like X does because I haven't checked < 1527268732 932596 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it isn't ugly; it is good. There is also the X cursor shapes, I don't think Wayland supports that either < 1527268879 473689 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You probably can use larger cursors instead, and I like the small monochrome ones) < 1527268921 851895 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is also X resource manager, although you can use that independently of X.) < 1527269027 392711 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527269050 155523 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" X will be replaced by wayland within a few years" => I don't believe that. Most of the things people say about wayland aren't actually valid advantages over X. < 1527269079 953785 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the part about X server-side font rendering versus in-client pango mapped stuff is more valid of course. < 1527269095 177267 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and I agree; I think most of them are disadvantages over X. < 1527269130 89553 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there is a way to run Wayland programs in X so that you can use a X window manager with Wayland programs. < 1527269266 836524 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bitmap fonts used by X look better, especially at small sizes. < 1527269274 100804 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm especially annoyed by the supposed security advantages that wayland would have if you use untrusted clients, because those are literally impossible < 1527269315 868654 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: several of the devs working on X say it is an unmaintainable code base < 1527269340 528261 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is not secure at all, one program can easily read input for another program < 1527269353 189192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use a proxy server for security < 1527269362 53809 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's not a good excuse, because the client-side font rendering pipeline (freetype, fontconfig, pango, ...) can render X bitmap fonts among other formats, it's just that the fontconfig settings have an option that is set to hide them by default on some distributions. < 1527269420 497528 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" also it is not secure at all, one program can easily read input for another program" => that's the claim that annoys me, when people want their flashy half-transparent borderless overlay toolbar windows, and at the same time they try to pretend that it's somehow clear to the user which program he's giving input to. < 1527269450 691417 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I hate semi-transparent, it just makes it harder to read everything < 1527269485 286070 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made some ideas about how to make X version 12, which compared with version 11 incorporates some features of extensions in core (such as XkbBell) and drops most of the other ones, as well as add some other stuff (such as the EnableLigatures flag for font loading, the ExtensionControl request, and HoldAndModify visuals). < 1527269512 43127 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: but look at for example the XTEST extension (used legitimately mostly) < 1527269570 301829 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike X11, the first byte of the X12 protocol is always "X", so you can easily implement both versions on the same server for compatibility if you want to do. < 1527269585 243896 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: but if things like snaps or other generic prepackaged app formats are to succeed you need to be able to limit access and have security boundaries, like for example Android does. Yes an app can request being able to see other apps, and the used should be informed to be able to determine if it is legitimate < 1527269614 834526 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/used/user/ < 1527269625 734703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Then perhaps you should use proxy servers like I suggested, then. < 1527269630 197686 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that barely works in practice even on android, and android runs apps in full-screen, and even there an app could mimic the interface of another app to confuse the user. < 1527269668 563442 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it can mimic, can't read input sent to another program though < 1527269706 379931 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: right. but that gets much more confused if you don't have all apps in full-screen all the time, but in windows. < 1527269746 560309 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it though, now that android allows PiP as well as split-screen < 1527269878 316167 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if the X code base is considered unmaintainable by the people who develop it, then something clearly needs to be done. They have selected to begin a new project, and are probably going to leave X behind, not develop new features for it, and eventually stop supporting it at all. Sure, it is open source so someone else can pick it up, but I doubt that will happen (beyond some enterprise distro keeping it alive with security < 1527269878 466535 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixes for another 5-10 years) < 1527269964 37828 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't see what X does better than wayland inherently (as opposed to things that it currently does better due to being more mature) < 1527269964 324338 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1527269964 357810 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1527269964 357867 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1527270262 357377 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:110:fb9c:8e1d:23b9 JOIN :#esoteric > 1527270485 824328 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Totally Accurate Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55342&oldid=41794 5* 03Kaa-kun 5* (+0) 10 > 1527270516 101929 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Totally Accurate Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55343&oldid=55342 5* 03Kaa-kun 5* (+0) 10more caps < 1527270548 681 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`aglist 593,594,595 < 1527270548 726897 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aglist 593,594,595: b_jonas shachaf < 1527272626 175906 :wob_jonas!b03f185a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.90 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1527273104 197775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: So you can think of the intensional and extensional perspective of the same lattice, as you mentioned above < 1527273217 344096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A,C are indistinguishable then that sorting algorithm produces the same result on the extensional total order. < 1527273812 229482 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527274324 92641 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527274795 899872 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1527274830 901081 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-44-78.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1527274880 402575 :Guest6451!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-12-99.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1527278343 410562 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@145.255.8.243 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1527280161 890273 :Camto!462d17f0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.45.23.240 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527281526 714726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1527283851 336 :user24!~void@p200300886901BF0095B8214DE078FBA6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1527284299 704580 :Camto!462d17f0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.45.23.240 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1527285672 688298 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yplkppsehnqcmxaj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1527286544 747967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Along and Across14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55344&oldid=55340 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+303) 10 < 1527286636 355387 :user24!~void@p200300886901BF00B93B6D8E20F62188.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1527287204 888979 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527287268 113796 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:110:fb9c:8e1d:23b9 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527288324 892597 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527288379 997399 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1527288406 307738 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1527288530 949675 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527288668 863511 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1527289412 219773 :Galaxtone!~IceChat9@cable-54-120.sssnet.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527289581 910046 :impomatic!~digital_w@host109-149-158-169.range109-149.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1527290628 533856 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-inrhwtzqitswijaa JOIN :#esoteric < 1527290812 675471 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:f840:e56e:64e6:9cae JOIN :#esoteric < 1527291115 314354 :user24!~void@p200300886901BF00B93B6D8E20F62188.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527291246 288721 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527291288 844832 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should they add a "goto case" and "goto default" commands into C? < 1527291340 236896 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The "goto case" is followed by a numeric expression, which does not have to be constant; then it can check which case (which is constant) is matching, or default if there isn't any match) < 1527291762 283083 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1527291885 355991 :user24!~void@p20030088694F4400B93B6D8E20F62188.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1527292021 807219 :user24!~void@p20030088694F4400B93B6D8E20F62188.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1527292139 850192 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1527292147 193972 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: nostril. < 1527292147 296860 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: mhm noise ' cause i was getting a little juicier well < 1527292155 845796 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: oh yeah juicy. < 1527292155 924452 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: and uh i don't know i think < 1527292183 264841 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan bonsœøirjan. a little song: https://youtu.be/4vgcYBwyw28 < 1527292183 392728 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1527292320 516429 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:f840:e56e:64e6:9cae QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”