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02:28:19 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+5370) created page about a horrible weirdlang
02:28:50 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55710&oldid=55648 * HereToAnnoy * (+41) blah blah blah horrible weirdlang
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02:43:48 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55711&oldid=55682 * Iamcalledbob * (+111) /* Examples */
02:44:17 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55712&oldid=55711 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */
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03:14:34 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55713&oldid=55712 * Iamcalledbob * (+99) /* Commands */
03:50:10 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55714&oldid=55713 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Commands */
03:50:24 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55715&oldid=55714 * Iamcalledbob * (+1) /* Commands */
03:59:53 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55716&oldid=55715 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Commands */
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04:42:27 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55717&oldid=54867 * Iamcalledbob * (+32) /* Survey */
04:43:39 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55718&oldid=55717 * Iamcalledbob * (+29) /* Survey */
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04:53:03 <esowiki> [[$]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55719 * Iamcalledbob * (+1366) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, $. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number has "+..."
04:53:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55720&oldid=55707 * Iamcalledbob * (+8)
04:54:06 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55721&oldid=55718 * Iamcalledbob * (+53) /* Survey */
04:54:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55722&oldid=55720 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* F */
04:55:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55723&oldid=55722 * Iamcalledbob * (-17) /* F */
05:29:04 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55724&oldid=55688 * Iamcalledbob * (+169) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
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05:47:58 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55725&oldid=55702 * Iamcalledbob * (+31) /* Turing-completeness */
05:48:35 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55726&oldid=55725 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Turing-completeness */
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07:10:30 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+157) Created page with "I discovered that the Befunge program 9482350042>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ 's output turns out to be 105260548 . My password is :12345678 My username is : Iamcalledbob"
07:11:02 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55728&oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+10)
07:13:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55729&oldid=55724 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */
07:19:12 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55730&oldid=55728 * Iamcalledbob * (+1035)
07:19:43 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55731&oldid=55730 * Iamcalledbob * (+12)
07:21:14 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55732&oldid=55731 * Iamcalledbob * (+92)
07:23:05 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55733&oldid=55732 * Iamcalledbob * (+137)
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07:31:32 <esowiki> [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55734&oldid=55733 * Iamcalledbob * (+146)
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07:39:25 <esowiki> [[(]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55735 * Iamcalledbob * (+394) Created page with "==(== ===( is a deprivative of $ that only works when the current user is dead.=== ===This makes it impossible to use.=== ==Computability(Halting problem)== ===If the user is..."
07:40:22 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55736&oldid=55686 * Iamcalledbob * (+69)
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09:33:43 <esowiki> [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55737&oldid=53509 * Chris Pressey * (-19) Using Wayback for this purpose seems slightly wasteful or misguided or something
09:44:47 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+436) Created page with "==ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE== ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Alphabet numbers !! controls | 1 || input a string and push it onto the stack |- | 2 || clear the next..."
09:45:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55739&oldid=55723 * Iamcalledbob * (+36) /* O */
09:46:29 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55740&oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+28)
09:47:21 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55741&oldid=55740 * Iamcalledbob * (+11)
09:47:52 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55742&oldid=55741 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* Hello,world */
09:48:28 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55743&oldid=55742 * Iamcalledbob * (+11) /* Hello,world */
10:00:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55744 * Keymaker * (+2211) Some thoughts.
10:04:06 <esowiki> [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55745&oldid=55743 * Iamcalledbob * (+221) /* Commands */
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10:34:17 <esowiki> [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55746&oldid=55515 * Keymaker * (+1951) Added Sub to MM translation example.
10:50:00 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55747 * Chris Pressey * (+252) There appears to be a eird technical issue with this category page?
10:52:35 <esowiki> [[2D-BCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55748 * Iamcalledbob * (+2149) Created page with "==2D-BCT== I want to design a language that includes all the purposes of an esolang. ==BCT== A '''BCT program''' is any finite string of bits (commands), executed as follows:..."
10:53:02 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55749&oldid=55700 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Brevity */
10:56:41 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55750&oldid=55749 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */
10:56:54 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55751&oldid=55750 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */
10:57:11 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55752&oldid=55751 * Iamcalledbob * (-4) /* Brevity */
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11:39:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Expload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55753&oldid=34973 * Chris Pressey * (+1852) Thoughts from re-reading this article
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11:59:18 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55754&oldid=54312 * Chris Pressey * (-2) The article includes an implementation, so, move from Unimplemented to Implemented category
12:25:54 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55755&oldid=55754 * Chris Pressey * (+181) Add summary that hopefully makes it clear what a zeroing trigger actually does.
12:37:19 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+2051) Created page with "==Brianfuck== ==Brainfuck Info== Brainfuck operates on an array of memory cells, also referred to as the [[tape]], each initially set to zero. There is a [[pointer]], initiall..."
12:37:42 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55757&oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* In all of the questions, Brianfuck has only 1 byte, but Flogscript has a lot. */
12:38:25 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55758&oldid=55757 * Iamcalledbob * (+31)
12:40:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55759&oldid=54320 * Chris Pressey * (+548) Wondering if I've missed something re the declared undefined behaviour
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12:47:49 <wob_jonas> In Windows, the taskbar buttons used to have a different background color for minimized windows than for restored windows. but apparently for windows 10, or at least this windows 10 machine, that isn't the case.
12:49:51 <wob_jonas> This is very annoying, and I don't know how to change it. I've set the option "settings / personalization / colors / more options / show accent color on the following surfaces / start, taskbar, and action center", which recolors the taskbar buttons from black to colored, but that doesn't fix this.
12:51:04 <wob_jonas> also, some of the taskbar buttons have a slightly lighter backround, but I can't figure out what that means
12:52:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55760&oldid=55759 * Chris Pressey * (+738)
12:54:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55761&oldid=55760 * Chris Pressey * (+238)
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13:03:30 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55762&oldid=55736 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* General languages */
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13:30:11 <esowiki> [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55763&oldid=55625 * Chris Pressey * (+3997) Import some description from its README (which I wrote and which is also in the public domain anyway.) Remove 'stub' macro.
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13:31:18 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> in "our" world, strings are terms built exclusively from unary function symbols (and one constant for the empty string)." => exactly, in my world too. strings are inconvenient, and for a long time I didn't understand why everyone in mathematics didn't just work with tree-like terms,
13:31:34 <wob_jonas> with the string representation being mostly irrelevant and a job for computer stuff. but later I realized why:
13:32:42 <wob_jonas> you need the strings themselves for bootstrapping of Godel numbering if you want to prove that there are undecidable *arithmetic* statements using the natural numbers and addition and multiplication and equality and first-order logic
13:33:47 <wob_jonas> because even that way (and even if you enable to power operation), translating loops to first-order statements on arithmetic is the hard part, and looping on a string you can just barely manage and stay in delta-zero or whatever that thing is,
13:33:56 <wob_jonas> but looping on a tree would be impossible directly.
13:34:18 <wob_jonas> uh... I don't know the details, I don't have them swapped in my head right now, but the point is,
13:34:28 <wob_jonas> there is a good reason why sometimes you have to consider strings,
13:34:39 <wob_jonas> even though normally you prefer a term to mean tree-like stuff
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13:44:02 <esowiki> [[PLEASE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+1103) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, assign. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number h..."
13:44:40 <esowiki> [[PLEASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55765&oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+14) /* Turing-Completeness */
13:48:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55766 * ZM * (+276) Created page with "==Duplicate title== Small hint: when creating a page, it is unnecessary to include a header with the page name at the beginning as this is included automatically by MediaWiki..."
13:52:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55767&oldid=55761 * B jonas * (+664) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
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13:59:18 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Equipage => I think this one is probably Turing-complete. You can probably translate Underload to this.
14:00:04 <wob_jonas> you need some tricky way to build quoted functions
14:00:51 <wob_jonas> probably with a number of fixed functions on the top of the stack all the time
14:01:04 <wob_jonas> but I'm not sure how you'd bootstrap some trees or something
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14:02:29 <wob_jonas> darn, I think I have an idea for that one, but I'd have to reduce a very small subset of Consumer Society into it
14:02:51 <wob_jonas> and I could only simulate a turing machine with one tape that way
14:02:56 <wob_jonas> and I don't see how I could do better than that
14:03:31 <wob_jonas> I should instead try a negative proof
14:03:49 <wob_jonas> proving that there are certain interesting things that the language can't do but that you expect such a language to do
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14:16:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55768&oldid=55767 * Chris Pressey * (+674)
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14:40:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55769&oldid=55768 * Chris Pressey * (+224)
14:46:32 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55770&oldid=55721 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Survey */ typo
14:51:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55771&oldid=55769 * Chris Pressey * (+85) parenthetical addendum
14:51:23 <wob_jonas> no second question by the way, I solved it by searching the internet for the right terms
14:51:36 <wob_jonas> I haven't solved the first one, about the windows taskbar
14:51:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55772&oldid=55771 * Chris Pressey * (-4)
14:54:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55773&oldid=55772 * Chris Pressey * (-1)
14:59:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55774&oldid=55773 * B jonas * (+470) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
15:00:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55775&oldid=55774 * Chris Pressey * (+235)
15:03:34 <esowiki> [[Category:2018]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55776&oldid=53928 * Oerjan * (+1) Dummy edit to bump cache
15:05:03 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55777&oldid=55747 * Oerjan * (+346) Known bug
15:34:21 <imode> well, just made a string rewriting interpreter that supports comments. going to have it support variable delimiters too.
15:35:32 <wob_jonas> imode: do you mean an interpreter that interprets a string-rewriting language, or an interpreter implemented in a string-rewriting language?
15:35:44 <imode> interpreter that interprets a string rewriting language.
15:36:54 <wob_jonas> the interface of my spare phone is so counter-intuitive, I already hate it, and I've barely used it
15:37:17 <wob_jonas> I'll have to look for a better phone
15:37:28 <imode> comments are just lines that don't contain the delimiter, and I'm thinking of having the top two lines define the delimiter for each of the rules and the end of the rules.
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15:43:01 <wob_jonas> did they even do proper user interface testing for this, where a good software tester guy uses this phone in practice for weeks and writes down everything that should be changed?
15:43:16 <wob_jonas> they don't make phones the way they used to anymore
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15:51:08 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> you need some tricky way to build quoted functions <-- indeed, the functions seem to be mostly of the form "push X to", but no way to iterate it.
15:52:49 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55778&oldid=55706 * Ais523 * (+271) /* Commands and syntax */ explain halt behaviour explicitly
15:53:26 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I think I'll be able to construct a proof. I have an idea. but I have to get back to that later, I'm busy with other stuff now.
15:53:32 <oerjan> but having all of them permanently in a know position on the stack might get around it like you said.
15:55:42 <oerjan> oh and pick can pick from bottom, that helps
15:56:33 <oerjan> wob_jonas: so you can put your fixed functions there instead of at the top
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16:11:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55779&oldid=55744 * Ais523 * (+3164) r to Keymaker
16:13:51 <wob_jonas> oh, it can pick from the bottom of the stack for negative values? that makes it way too easy
16:14:18 <wob_jonas> I think I have a solution for picking from the top only though
16:14:48 <wob_jonas> although I'm not really sure it works
16:14:58 <esowiki> [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55780&oldid=55777 * Ais523 * (+355) https vs. http
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16:16:12 <wob_jonas> and I think the instructions -%\ aren't even necessary
16:16:46 <wob_jonas> you need !:.~ for everything, and 1+ to make numbers for ~
16:17:02 <wob_jonas> oh, and $ is useful too, because we often need to discard
16:17:19 <wob_jonas> still, it's an ugly model to work with
16:17:39 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll be able to do more than a tape
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16:24:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55781&oldid=55775 * Ais523 * (+1997) /* Undefined behavior */ explain
16:29:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55782&oldid=55781 * Chris Pressey * (+501)
16:30:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55783&oldid=55782 * Ais523 * (+1044) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ (ec) replies
16:40:33 <esowiki> [[Chronofuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+1427) created the page
16:42:10 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/UZpd/python https://ptpb.pw/g_93/text
16:42:24 <imode> my interpreter and a sample program. not quite thue, but good enough.
16:42:25 <esowiki> [[Chronofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55785&oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+87)
16:46:20 <imode> the next thing to do is work on getting a minimal state machine working, then I can translate line-numbers to states.
16:47:47 <imode> essentially, I want certain rules to apply when we're in a certain state. the problem is that I want to take any given set of rules (within a reasonable range) and be able to either prefix or postfix or do some simple modification to them to make them run sequentially based on conditions.
16:49:09 <imode> and I'd like to translate this whole thing to a queue problem so I don't have to continually start over in my pattern search, but I'm having a hard time getting it to halt, considering the result for "no pattern matched" is to dequeue and requeue a symbol, rather than fail.
16:49:31 <imode> I have a feeling I can do it by just using a marker on the queue, but the signalling involved gets weird.
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17:46:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55786&oldid=55555 * Truttle1 * (+55) Added AsciiDots
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17:58:37 <esowiki> [[PUBERTY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55787&oldid=55654 * Izumariu * (+453) Added truth machine example and added wiki links to the examples
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18:10:55 <esowiki> [[Neg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55788&oldid=53755 * HereToAnnoy * (+48) fsm i hate all of my languages
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18:42:12 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55789&oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+1239) Added line number system (creating superpositions, yay). Hopefully this makes the language just a bit esoteric from the when function.
18:42:35 <wob_jonas> this phone is so annoying I have to rant about it
18:43:13 <wob_jonas> I'm still experimenting with it, so there's a lot I don't know, but there's a lot of annoying things I found already that I must rant to you now
18:44:07 <wob_jonas> I'd tell you what phone it is, but I'm not sure, because I forgot and the fucking type number isn't written anywhere on it, not even on the label under the battery, nor in the UI
18:44:28 <wob_jonas> so it's a Nokia non-smartphone but I don't know the number
18:45:09 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55790&oldid=55739 * HereToAnnoy * (+14) /* G */
18:45:44 <wob_jonas> firstly, I still haven't discovered a safe button sequence without timeouts that takes me to the home screen from most states, including when the phone is locked.
18:46:35 <wob_jonas> the R button seems safe anywhere (except during a call that it hangs up), and it's a good start, but it can take you to one of *four* states, one of which decay into a fifth state by timeout, and I'm not sure how to proceed from that
18:46:50 <wob_jonas> I'll have to make a table of the state automaton to figure this one out
18:46:57 <wob_jonas> it's too complicated to solve in my head
18:47:18 <wob_jonas> (and one of the four states decays into one other of the fourth state by timeout)
18:47:43 <wob_jonas> I'd like a short sequence, but prefer one that includes optional timeouts between most button presses in it, so I can take a pause during in most places
18:48:16 <wob_jonas> (you can't take a pause anywhere, and for a good reason, becuase from the locked state you can't get into the unlocked state with single presses with pauses between, which is good design)
18:48:27 <wob_jonas> and I'd like a sequence with no mandatory timeouts
18:49:12 <wob_jonas> but this is not obvious, because one of the states is the home screen, which has almost every button bound to do something, only the P button goes back to the home screen
18:49:34 <wob_jonas> on the home screen, EVERY button does something
18:50:10 <wob_jonas> not necessarily something harmful, but goes to some state that I have to consider
18:50:41 <wob_jonas> anyway, I'll get back to this when I mapped all the states, but for now, other stuff
18:51:11 <wob_jonas> I expected to find a functional music player in this phone. the description when I bought said it had one.
18:51:35 <wob_jonas> well, it can play the mp3s from my SD card, but the media player is so messed up it's completely unusable for me
18:51:57 <wob_jonas> the worst part is that it won't play albums in order
18:52:37 <wob_jonas> it apparently ignores the album and track number metadata in the file entirely, which is a good thing because some of the files I have on it aren't encoded by me and don't have it filled correctly
18:52:59 <wob_jonas> instead it lists music by directory, in some tree order on the file system
18:53:22 <wob_jonas> BUT THE ORDER OF THE TRACKS IN A DIRECTORY seems to follow no logic I can discover
18:53:37 <wob_jonas> in some directories it's in order, in some there are ordered parts, in some it's completely jumbled
18:54:12 <wob_jonas> in some directories, the filenames actually only differ in three digits, and you'd just have to sort by those. there's no way to mess up sorting in that directory if you sort by filename.
18:55:01 <wob_jonas> the files in that directory show up in the correct order if I view them in the file browser of the phone, but I can't play music from there: actually you sort of can, but it only plays one file and won't continue to other files in any way if you do that
18:55:15 <wob_jonas> and in the music player app, the files in that directory show up in some apparently random order
18:55:33 <wob_jonas> it's also not the track number, because I created these files myself and filled the track number and other metadata well
18:55:49 <wob_jonas> you can't create playlists or reorder the playlist or anything as far as I can tell
18:56:01 <wob_jonas> so there's just no absolutely no way to play a fucking album in order
18:56:48 <wob_jonas> the other problem is that you can't easily play music in the background, while doing something else
18:57:46 <wob_jonas> you sort of almost can, but it messes up the home screen, hijacking seven of the important buttons as media player controls, which makes the phone almost impossible to use
18:59:07 <wob_jonas> oh, I haven't even considered those states in the automaton in my head, darn it. that complicates the states even more.
18:59:39 <wob_jonas> that's at least two more states that the R key can take you, I think
19:00:05 <wob_jonas> I haven't played much with this, but there's one thing I discovered
19:02:03 <wob_jonas> if you start to write an SMS, accidentally put a single digit in the To field (which is supposed to have the phone number top send to), then in the Content field, you accidentally press G or E, which would normally send the message, then the phone tries to send the message and fails because the recipient is invalid. so far this sounds ok.
19:02:40 <wob_jonas> but when the message is failed to be sent, it goes into a libo state where I can view the first pageful or delete, but as far as I can see, there's no way to continue editing or view the rest of the text or anything.
19:03:32 <wob_jonas> the messages application main screen has a list of conversations (grouped by phone number) with all sorts mixed (sent, draft, incoming),
19:04:28 <wob_jonas> then if you choose one of those, you get into this horrible bubble view where you see each SMS (whether sent, incoming, or draft) in the conversation as this speech bubble thing, and when you select one, you have to press E to view its full text and metadata,
19:05:01 <wob_jonas> but for messages that were failed to send, E resends the message, which fails again, and there's nothing else you can do to recover from that state other then delete the message.
19:05:46 <wob_jonas> so basically, one wrong button press in the To field (you obviously don't enter a valid recipient there, because then you can accidentally send the message early) and then one wrong buttonn press while typing the message, and you're screwed.
19:06:58 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55791&oldid=55789 * HereToAnnoy * (+78) typos & minor tweaks
19:06:59 <wob_jonas> At least if you actually leave the To field empty, then when you accidentally try to send (with E or G in the content field while composing), it actually just shows an error message and lets you continue editing
19:07:26 <wob_jonas> but mind you, that error message takes your cursor to the To field which you'll then accidentally fill with a digit
19:07:42 <wob_jonas> so it's not even hard to carelessly enter the limbo state
19:08:22 <wob_jonas> do these people even know how ui testing works? just give the phone to a power user for two weeks and he'll tell you half of this
19:08:52 <wob_jonas> there's more but I haven't discovered everything yet
19:11:34 <wob_jonas> I think I understand why the type number isn't written anywhere, not even under the battery as it normally is with sane phones
19:11:39 <wob_jonas> they don't want people to write bad reviews
19:11:49 <wob_jonas> and you can't really if you can't tell what phone it is you're reviewing
19:12:15 <wob_jonas> (I think it's a Nokia 216, but I can't swear on that. I've bought it 7 months ago just to have a spare and thrown away the box.)
19:12:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55792&oldid=55786 * HereToAnnoy * (+504) added GetWhen
19:14:49 <wob_jonas> in the menu for setting the current time and date, there's an entry saying "Auto-update time". if you turn it on, it hides all the other settings in that menu, so you can't set the clock. I don't know why.
19:15:18 <wob_jonas> I think it's trying to get the time from the internet, but I don't have an internet connection enabled or something, and it doesn't actually get the correct time without or anything.
19:15:56 <wob_jonas> but seriously, it even hides the option for 12 hour versus 24 hour and the time zone, I have no idea why.
19:16:47 <wob_jonas> 3 and 5 works, I can set the time and date
19:18:03 <wob_jonas> 2 is strange, it might be working or it might not: it displays some list of timezones, including "GMT +1 Paris", "GMT +2 Cairo", "GMT +2 Athens" etc
19:18:16 <wob_jonas> but nowhere is the daylight saving mentioned
19:18:30 <wob_jonas> it doesn't tell anywhere that I'm supposed to be in +0200 now if I set to "GMT +1 Paris"
19:18:47 <wob_jonas> I don't know what timezone it uses and whether it will adjust DST
19:19:17 <wob_jonas> I don't think it even has all timezones (with dst settings) that it should, but has redundant timezones
19:21:22 <wob_jonas> just with really strange names I can't recognize
19:22:27 <wob_jonas> the Reykyavik timezone (always +0000) is called "GMT Casablanca", the London timezone is "GMT London", the Paris timezone is "GMT +1 Paris" and "GMT +1 Rome" and GMT +1 Warsaw" and "GMT +1 Berlin" (aren't those all the same now?)
19:23:40 <wob_jonas> then the Bucharest timezone is "GMT +2 Helsinki", that's fine
19:25:57 <wob_jonas> ok, I think it has all big timezones, but it doesn't seem to have a way to turn off DST changing for some offsets
19:26:21 <wob_jonas> there's only three -0500 base offset timezones, and all three have DST
19:27:47 <wob_jonas> that means it actually doesn't have the timezone for -0500 no DST, which is used in Jamaica
19:27:54 <wob_jonas> not that I want to travel there, but strange timezone list
19:29:03 <wob_jonas> or the one in Bolivia, which has a DST. the three -5 timezones listed are "GMT -5 Washington D.C.", "GMT -5 Toronto", "GMT -5 New York",
19:30:02 <wob_jonas> which are all three the same timezones, the New York one
19:30:13 <wob_jonas> I don't even know if this phone even does DST adjustments
19:30:24 <wob_jonas> but if it doesn't, then why is there even a "time zone" setting?
19:30:31 <wob_jonas> it doesn't display the time zone or UTC time anywhere,
19:30:49 <wob_jonas> and since my SD card uses the FAT file system, by custom it stores only local times
19:30:59 <wob_jonas> so I have no idea how it will behave at the DST change date
19:34:50 <wob_jonas> the time setting is annoying by the way, because you can only set the clock to a specific minute, but if you wait a minute on that screen in this phone, it darkens the screen and the first button press won't accept the time setting, so you're screwed if you don't keep pressing buttons
19:34:58 <wob_jonas> but that's not specific to this phone, it happens on many devices
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> I just met it too many times because the phone is still new and I've been removing the battery several times and have to set the clock every time after it
19:36:05 <wob_jonas> because if the battery is removed even for a second, then the internal clock no longer keep the time, it stops
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19:47:33 <wob_jonas> 5. on the plus side, this one charges from that type of USB connector that most phones do these days
19:47:49 <wob_jonas> so I can get rid of one more special charger type
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19:48:05 <wob_jonas> my previous phone used a cylindrical charger plug
19:48:14 <wob_jonas> now I only have four types of chargers:
19:48:44 <wob_jonas> the normal USB stuff for this phone and the bluetooth microphone (and probably future small devices too, like a better phone),
19:49:14 <wob_jonas> plus a special one for the electric toothbrush and a special one for the shaver
19:49:27 <wob_jonas> but the latter two have serious waterproofing requirements
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20:15:53 <wob_jonas> I just ranted about the UI of my new phone, and I haven't even discovered most of it. you can logread if you want, but it's a rant, hard to read
20:15:56 <ais523> do you have any feedback on my M:tG stuff so far?
20:16:09 <wob_jonas> I haven't read what you've written
20:16:19 <wob_jonas> am I supposed to have found the link to the M:tG stuff?
20:16:20 <ais523> I did, let me try to find it in the logs so that I can relink it
20:16:32 <ais523> either that or I tried to send it but it didn't go through for some reason
20:16:34 <wob_jonas> you could link it from the esowiki somewhere at least
20:16:47 <wob_jonas> if it was only in irc, I might have missed it
20:17:02 <ais523> [Wednesday, 13 June 2018] [14:36:28 BST] <ais523> wob_jonas: nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-maindeck.html.txt nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-setup.html.txt (these are temporary links that won't stay up that long, and these are not the final versions of the files)
20:17:12 <ais523> I don't want to be linking to temporary versions on the esowiki
20:17:21 <ais523> this is a work in progress and I don't want people advertising it everywhere until it's done
20:18:52 <wob_jonas> I must have missed that, I didn't read the logs of #esoteric carefully in a few days because I was very busy
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20:26:28 <wob_jonas> "it means that you can't pull this off in a tournament (where the opponent is unlikely to have the deck you need or to cooperate in setting the gamestate up), which in turn means that you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules (which contain things like infinite loop handling, and thus are very relevant for this sort of work)."
20:27:00 <wob_jonas> I don't quite like this game sentence in the introduction. I know what you mean but only because of earlier context from our discussions.
20:27:13 <wob_jonas> The problem is that these are two different things that this statement doesn't explain.
20:27:58 <wob_jonas> 1. you can't pull this off in a tournament. ok, but at this point (and for very long in the text) as a reader I won't believe that there's any such setup that you can pull off in a tournament, so it's not obvious what contrast you're talking here,
20:28:08 <wob_jonas> that's what you're trying to explain, but you'r conflating it with
20:28:16 <wob_jonas> 2. you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules
20:28:27 <wob_jonas> I don't think that's a reasonable implication or equivalence
20:28:50 <wob_jonas> you can use the the Tournament rules anywhere
20:29:11 <wob_jonas> it is a reasonable base even for unsanctioned tournaments, for which you just ignore the sections about DCI number and whatever
20:29:30 <wob_jonas> but it's a good framework so you might use some of its rules even at home or something
20:29:44 <wob_jonas> they might be relevant or not, but that's a separate question
20:29:49 <wob_jonas> don't put them in the same sentence
20:31:51 <wob_jonas> you can mention "you can't pull this off in a tournament", but that's a big deal that's normally obvious, you can normally never pull off these sorts of things in a tournament
20:32:11 <wob_jonas> you want to challenge that assumption, but you have to write that in a clear positive sentence at first, not in this long mess
20:32:29 <wob_jonas> not together with the Tournament rules
20:34:12 <wob_jonas> "However, our only changes are to the sideboard: our sixty maindeck cards are exactly the same." wow
20:34:33 <wob_jonas> last I've heard of this project, I think that wasn't yet the case. you had a few customizations in the main deck
20:36:07 <wob_jonas> ARGH I'm stuck in stack mode, with too many things I start and can't finish anything
20:36:19 <wob_jonas> now I'm stuck reading this interesting M:tG document
20:36:40 <wob_jonas> "The core of Omni-Tell" this heading section is nice well written
20:36:53 <wob_jonas> the "About Omni-Tell" heading section too
20:38:47 <wob_jonas> "The maindeck has no way to generate mana except via using its lands, and needs three mana [...] This requires a minimum of two lands"
20:39:18 <wob_jonas> this is absolutely true and the next part explains it, but totally alien for me, because in formats other than legacy and vintage, lands that produce two mana early just aren't a thing
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20:39:32 <wob_jonas> there are storage lands, but you won't use them early in a practical deck
20:39:54 <wob_jonas> "a double-colourless source like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors" clears it up right away though
20:40:16 <ais523> lands that produce {2} mostly only show up in Legacy combo decks
20:40:35 <wob_jonas> unless you are aiming for such a double-take, you might want to mention double lands before that sentence
20:40:37 <ais523> that and the urzatron but it's a special case
20:40:54 <wob_jonas> sure, but I'm thinking of early turns
20:41:07 <wob_jonas> urzatron and storage lands are fine, but if you only have lands, you won't pull that off early
20:41:20 <wob_jonas> and that sentence seems to imply that this is in the early turns
20:41:53 <wob_jonas> and you won't have early Llanowar Elves or Arbor Elves or any of that stuff I use
20:42:22 <wob_jonas> nor one of the few one mana cost artifacts that give a third mana in second turn
20:42:28 <ais523> the Modern players out there are probably doing a double-take upon seeing a basic Island :-)
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20:44:17 <wob_jonas> I didn't, I play basic lands, and I think there are some standard formats with no lands with Island or Plains etc type other than those, but some lands or spells that search for a basic land type (or search for a basic land), in which case people include just a few in their deck
20:44:28 <wob_jonas> or doesn't standard sometimes work like that?
20:44:44 <ais523> effects that search for basics specifically are rare
20:44:55 <ais523> effects that search for basic land types are common but there are plenty of good nonbasic lands which have the types
20:45:12 <wob_jonas> right, "search for a Forest" or "search for a Plains"
20:45:34 <wob_jonas> there are a few good ones, but are they reprinted often enough to always be in the standard?
20:45:53 <ais523> in Standard you often have to look for basics
20:46:03 <ais523> but the last time there were good land searching effects, there were good-enough dual lands too
20:46:10 <wob_jonas> there are only like six nonbasic cycles like that I think, not counting the Limited ones which will never be reprinted, and a few are bad for tournaments
20:46:27 <wob_jonas> oh, so there aren't always good land searching effects?
20:46:46 <ais523> but it was a bit of a mess, because there were lots of three-color cards (with an ally+two enemy pairs among the three colors), but the basic-land-type lands were ally-colored
20:47:00 <wob_jonas> good enough for a tournament that is?
20:47:11 <wob_jonas> or perhaps no good ones if you don't play green?
20:47:33 <ais523> this may have been intended to make them hard to use together, but what actually happened is that people ended up playing four colors because it worked better than three, so the top decks ended up largely identical, just playing all the best cards in four colors
20:47:46 <ais523> I don't think land /searching/ is at all common in Standard at the moment
20:47:59 <ais523> most of the cards that get land out of your deck just look at the top few cards
20:48:15 <ais523> I guess that's technically a search
20:49:47 <wob_jonas> I'm just not familiar with standard or modern enough, so I never noticed that
20:50:00 <wob_jonas> I know there used to be good land searchers in some formats
20:50:25 <wob_jonas> and I thought there'd be at least slightly less broken land searchers later
20:50:25 <ais523> `card-by-name Rampant Growth
20:50:26 <HackEso> Rampant Growth \ 1G \ Sorcery \ Search your library for a basic land card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ MI-C, TE-C, 6E-C, 7E-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, M12-C, MM2-C, C15-C, C16-C, DDS-C
20:50:30 <wob_jonas> I guess that's a stupid assumption
20:50:38 <ais523> Rampant Growth is currently considered too good for Standard
20:50:40 <wob_jonas> yes, that's why I said non-green deck
20:50:51 <wob_jonas> that one is good, and there's some weaker ones
20:50:53 <ais523> even though it's allowed a power level boost for being green
20:51:17 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Terramorphic Expanse
20:51:18 <HackEso> Terramorphic Expanse \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Terramorphic Expanse: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ TSP-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, ARC-C, M11-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MMA-C, C13-C, C14-C, C15-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDE-C, DDH-C, DDN-C, H09-C
20:51:28 <wob_jonas> while that one is too bad for tournament?
20:51:29 <ais523> `card-by-name Evolving Wilds
20:51:30 <HackEso> Evolving Wilds \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Evolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ ROE-C, CMD-C, DKA-C, M13-C, C13-C, M15-C, C14-C, DTK-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, BFZ-C, C15-C, CN2-C, C16-C, AKH-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDH-C, DDK-C, DDN-C, DDO-C, DDP-C
20:51:44 <ais523> wow, I knew Evolving Wilds had been ridiculously reprinted
20:51:52 <ais523> not Terramorphic too, though
20:52:09 <ais523> they're used occasionally when the alternatives are really bad
20:52:16 <ais523> but they're not considered good cards
20:52:36 <ais523> hmm, what are the most recent cards in the bot?
20:52:40 <wob_jonas> wait, what's the difference between those two?
20:53:01 <wob_jonas> why are their current oracle text (not in the bot) different?
20:54:27 <ais523> one has a full stop where the other has a comma, with grammar adjusted to fit
20:54:36 <wob_jonas> who's the head rules manager now? I'm cursing them
20:54:51 <wob_jonas> they generally look for this sort of thing
20:55:13 <ais523> (I think I've spelled that correctly?)
20:55:16 <ais523> it was Matt Tabak for ages
20:55:40 <wob_jonas> luckily they're doing good job in the background so most of the time I don't have to think of their names
20:57:04 <wob_jonas> so land searching, Terramorphic is not good enough for tournament?
20:58:30 <wob_jonas> (in the kitchen table, it's good enough only for a very few decks, and even then it's not a very good card, just an acceptable one.)
20:58:38 <ais523> it's good enough for most decks if it's in your opening hand, but it's too slow if you draw it later in the game
20:58:49 <ais523> err, tapped lands generally are, I mean
20:59:08 <ais523> Terramorphic in particular has the additional problem that you often don't know what color you'll be missing when you draw it early
21:01:41 <wob_jonas> I play with Kodama's Reach in a big ramp and it's quite good, but only if I already have four or more green one-mana accelerators in the deck so you can almost always cast it in turn 2, and I really want a ramp, and this strategy only works in a close to mono-green deck.
21:01:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55793&oldid=55783 * Chris Pressey * (+376) /* Undefined behavior */
21:02:13 <wob_jonas> green has a lot of good one-mana accelerators, both for kitchen table and for tournament
21:02:22 <wob_jonas> I don't have the tournament versions of course
21:02:56 <ais523> `card-by-name Veteran Explorer
21:02:57 <HackEso> Veteran Explorer \ G \ Creature -- Human Soldier Scout \ 1/1 \ When Veteran Explorer dies, each player may search his or her library for up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched his or her library this way shuffles it. \ WL-U, CMD-U, C16-U
21:03:10 <ais523> this is apparently the only one-mana accelerator that's good enough for Legacy
21:03:36 <ais523> unless you count Lotus Petal
21:03:57 <ais523> …I assume Sol Ring is banned? otherwise I can't see why people wouldn't use it
21:04:37 <wob_jonas> but Llawnowar Elves, Arbor Elves, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, are cheap cards I have, and the first two are really good
21:04:44 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, Sol Ring is reprinted cheap too now
21:05:46 <wob_jonas> there's Springleaf Drum but it's limited, it only works second turn if you can play a one-mana creature, any why would you play a one-mana creature that doesn't produce mana in turn 2 in a ramp deck?
21:06:29 <HackEso> Abundant Growth \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Abundant Growth enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land has "{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool." \ AVR-C, EMA-C
21:06:48 <wob_jonas> apparently this is the new improved version, because the old ones were good only in some decks, and not really for early
21:06:54 <wob_jonas> you almost always wanted the elves instead
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21:11:31 <ais523> anyway, I'm not 100% sure I've written about Omnitell correctly because I've never played it, but I have watched videos of other people playing it
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21:14:12 <wob_jonas> so there's the 3 or more variants of Llawnowar Elves, then Arbor Elves that I like but it only works for me because I do play lots of Forests in those decks, it won't work in tournament; then the Birds of Paradise which I think was tournament card but now rotated from standard; and off-color ones like Elves of Deep Shadow, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Noble H
21:14:12 <wob_jonas> ierarch, of which at least the last was used in tournaments I think
21:14:32 <wob_jonas> which are green mana producers for playing in turn 1 and producing mana in turn 2
21:15:33 <ais523> Arbor Elves is frequently played in Standard when it's legal
21:15:48 <ais523> I think it's played in Modern, too, but only in Elf tribal decks
21:15:51 <wob_jonas> how about the Llanowar Elves variants?
21:16:02 <ais523> those are played too; Arbor Elf is slightly better though
21:16:09 <wob_jonas> they're good for me, because they're fast and versatile, go in many different decks that have green
21:16:27 <ais523> unless you have lots of green-producing non-Forests
21:17:04 <wob_jonas> why is Arbor Elves good in Standard? oh right, you said they still have dual lands with land types
21:17:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, I play at least 12 basic lands among at least 22 lands in almost all constructed decks, but that's not what a trournament player would do
21:18:15 <wob_jonas> and even in the kitchen table, I have played against many-colored decks with almost no basic lands
21:19:02 <ais523> land hate is really bad at the moment, and has been for ages
21:19:28 <ais523> so there's basically no reason to play basics if you have an alternative
21:19:42 <wob_jonas> I guess I do this because all the dual land card that often etb untapped are expensive, so I haven't bought most of them
21:19:42 <ais523> they're trying to give the dual lands drawbacks instead but they're never large enough
21:20:03 <wob_jonas> there are a few affordable ones now though, so I will buy when I return to M:tG, because they're versatile
21:20:14 <wob_jonas> they're still expensive, but they're versatile, go in many decks, so I'll probably buy some
21:21:20 <wob_jonas> iirc they recently printed one that etb untapped in multiplayer games, that seems almost like cheating
21:21:57 <ais523> `card-by-name Crumble to Dust
21:21:58 <HackEso> Crumble to Dust \ 3R \ Sorcery \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ Exile target nonbasic land. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with the same name as that land and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ BFZ-U
21:22:15 <ais523> that's the only good anti-land card that's been Standard-legal any time recently, and I think it's rotated out
21:22:24 <ais523> also it's not good enough to play except against decks that rely on a single powerful land
21:23:07 <ais523> which means that decks that are just playing nonbasic lands for fixing have nothing to worry about, the opponent doesn't have any viable ways to take advantage of that
21:23:25 <wob_jonas> are they trying to break all non-trournament formats with that?
21:23:27 <ais523> it isn't the first though
21:23:31 <ais523> `card-by-name Command Tower
21:23:31 <HackEso> Command Tower \ Land \ {T}: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color in your commander's color identity. \ CMD-C, C13-C, C15-C, C16-C, CMA-C, C17-C
21:24:14 <wob_jonas> ok, but this is a full cycle of five so you'll have 8 in wedge 3 colored decks
21:24:31 <wob_jonas> at least the ones they print for Modern have some moderation
21:24:31 <ais523> command tower is basically a gold land with no drawback if you're playing Commander
21:24:40 <ais523> as mana outside the color identity isn't useful anyway
21:24:49 <wob_jonas> I'm not playing commander, but I am often playing multiplayer with four players
21:25:07 <wob_jonas> and it can happen only in the very late game that there are only two players in play and the game hasn't ended
21:25:10 <ais523> "this land is broken in format X" is still broken, though
21:25:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55794&oldid=55793 * Chris Pressey * (+932) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
21:25:18 <wob_jonas> at that point I don't care if my eighth land etb tapped
21:25:22 <ais523> `card-by-name City of Ass
21:25:22 <HackEso> City of Ass \ Land \ City of Ass comes into play tapped. \ {T}: Add one and one-half mana of any one color to your mana pool. \ UNH-R
21:25:28 <ais523> also completely broken :-(
21:25:39 <wob_jonas> they don't have that sort of broken dual land for Modern or any recent Standard, right?
21:25:42 <ais523> even back when it made you mana burn for a half, it was broken
21:25:48 <wob_jonas> even the Ravnica duals aren't that good
21:26:20 <ais523> most broken lands in Modern are the Khans fetchlands
21:27:27 <wob_jonas> yes, City of Ass is broken too, but... at least that has a silver border, and mentions half mana which you normally can only play with the strange un-rule that you can choose half numbers every time you have to choose a number, and that rule breaks the format even with only ordinary modern cards, eg. you can distribute half of deathtouch damage to
21:27:47 <ais523> huh, I'm trying to remember a name of one of the cards in the cycle, and I keep remembering Zendikar fetchlands instead
21:28:00 <wob_jonas> so even without any cards, the half numbers un-rules are brokenm
21:28:49 <wob_jonas> and have been in every version of the rules I can remember, because all the versions of the combat damage rule had some exception at least for deathtouch, even if nothing else
21:29:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55795&oldid=55794 * Ais523 * (+487) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ computability
21:30:03 <wob_jonas> how big a print will Battlebond have? it's not standard legal
21:30:21 <ais523> until people stop buying it, I think
21:30:24 <wob_jonas> I wonder if those rares will become cheap
21:30:33 <ais523> but they'll only print a fairly small quantity to begin with
21:30:36 <ais523> so it depends on how successful it is
21:30:57 <wob_jonas> most rare lands aren't, but this seems a special interest one
21:31:12 <wob_jonas> most good lands are expensive, which makes sense
21:31:58 <wob_jonas> as in, I build mostly from cheap cards, and want to buy more cheap cards,
21:32:09 * ais523 eventually gives up and looks them up
21:32:14 <ais523> `card-by-name bloodstained mire
21:32:15 <HackEso> Bloodstained Mire \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Bloodstained Mire: Search your library for a Swamp or Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. \ ONS-R, KTK-R, EXP-M
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21:32:25 <wob_jonas> but I might buy some medium price dual lands or similar if they seem so versatile I can put them in many decks
21:32:31 <wob_jonas> usually I just use cheap lands for that too
21:33:19 <wob_jonas> in formats with decent lands with nonbasic types that is
21:33:48 <ais523> it's good even if you're fetching basics
21:34:03 <ais523> in fact, in Legacy, they're sometimes played even in monocolor decks
21:34:09 <ais523> for the deck thinning + free shuffle
21:34:25 <ais523> (this is at least partly because most Legacy decks don't care about their opponent's life total)
21:34:44 <ais523> when you're trying to win quickly, winning from 12 and from 20 are approximately equally easy
21:34:50 <ais523> unless you're playing Burn
21:35:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's what Terramorphic is good for too, and some more expensive (2 or 3 mana) green stuff, but it's only like one or two decks where I need the free shuffle
21:35:13 <wob_jonas> and yes, the deck thinning is useful too
21:35:31 <ais523> with Terramorphic it's not free, it effectively costs {1} :-D
21:35:43 <ais523> and that's too much for a shuffle even if you aren't paying a card for it
21:36:10 <wob_jonas> one or two or three mana up front, and you get back zero or one immediately
21:37:10 <ais523> well, you're basically paying for three things: color fixing, ramp, and the shuffle
21:37:17 <ais523> cards that give only a subset of those effects have to be cheaper
21:37:40 <ais523> so, for example, color fix + ramp + shuffle (all three) is Rampant Growth, which costs two mana and a card
21:37:47 <ais523> `card-by-name Rupture Spire
21:37:48 <HackEso> Rupture Spire \ Land \ Rupture Spire enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Rupture Spire enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you pay {1}. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ CON-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, DDH-C, H09-C
21:38:01 <ais523> a perfect color fix through perfect turns costs an effective {2}
21:38:19 <ais523> whereas a "pick a color now" and a shuffle costs an effective {1}, that's Terramorphic
21:41:33 <wob_jonas> does Modern have something like Krosan Wayfarer, which is "put a land card from your hand into play, right now" effect for {G} on a sorcery?
21:41:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Summer Bloom
21:41:53 <HackEso> Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> I know they have the same but the land tapped, but that's much weaker
21:42:00 <ais523> but it ended up getting banned
21:42:20 <ais523> there are probably weaker versions of the same effect that are still legal
21:42:22 <wob_jonas> because that helps with the fixing
21:42:34 <HackEso> Elvish Pioneer \ G \ Creature -- Elf Druid \ 1/1 \ When Elvish Pioneer enters the battlefield, you may put a basic land card from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. \ ONS-C, 8ED-C
21:43:16 <wob_jonas> but that isn't such a broken effect
21:43:18 <ais523> Summer Bloom was abused with nonbasics though
21:43:29 <wob_jonas> Krosan Wayfarer doesn't say "tapped"
21:43:34 <ais523> oddly, the "tapped" on Elvish Pioneer makes it stronger rather than weaker in that deck
21:43:36 <HackEso> Krosan Wayfarer \ G \ Creature -- Human Druid \ 1/1 \ Sacrifice Krosan Wayfarer: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ JUD-C
21:43:48 <ais523> `card-by-name Amulet of Vigor
21:43:49 <HackEso> Amulet of Vigor \ 1 \ Artifact \ Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it. \ WWK-R
21:43:49 <wob_jonas> why would I want my land required tapped?
21:44:11 <ais523> the thing is that if you get multiple Amulet of Vigor triggers, you can tap the land in between…
21:44:28 <ais523> the deck was called Amulet Bloom (i.e. Amulet of Vigor and Summer Bloom)
21:44:34 <ais523> it played them together with lands that bounce themselves
21:44:39 <ais523> `card-by-name Selesnya Sancturary
21:45:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Dimir Aqueduct
21:45:01 <HackEso> Dimir Aqueduct \ Land \ Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {U}{B} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, C17-U
21:45:17 <ais523> like that (except green)
21:45:24 <ais523> `card-by-name Selesnya Sanctuary
21:45:24 <HackEso> Selesnya Sanctuary \ Land \ Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {G}{W} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDG-C
21:46:29 <wob_jonas> it's still not the same of course, because if I have Krosan Wayfarer, then I sometimes have to play it first turn if I don't have a Llanowar/etc, so I won't have a chance for an Amulet of Vigor yet, so Krosan Wayfarer is still better in eteranl I think
21:46:42 <ais523> so say you have Amulet of Vigor in play, you can play a Selesnya Sancturary, tap it for {G}{W} before it bounces itself, use that to cast Summer Bloom, then play the Selesnya Sancturary three more times
21:47:00 <ais523> that gives you six mana on turn 2 (usually), which you can use to play Primeval Titan or some similar finisher
21:47:13 <wob_jonas> yes, the rav common duals, I play those
21:47:39 * ais523 wonders why they can't spell "sanctuary"
21:48:10 <ais523> I keep adding an extra r
21:48:53 <HackEso> Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U
21:49:43 <wob_jonas> I know the rav dual lands have their uses, but they're usually not that much broken
21:49:53 <ais523> `card-by-name Primeval Titan
21:49:54 <HackEso> Primeval Titan \ 4GG \ Creature -- Giant \ 6/6 \ Trample \ Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ M11-M, M12-M, MM2-M
21:50:18 <ais523> the trick is to search out a land that can give it haste :-)
21:50:23 <ais523> (remember that the Amulet will untap them)
21:50:31 <wob_jonas> hopefully that means only the Amulet is crazy, not all ten rav common dual lands
21:50:46 <ais523> the Magic devs think that the rav common duals are too strong
21:50:58 <wob_jonas> I think they're strong too, but not tournament strong
21:51:01 <ais523> I think so, not 100% sure on that
21:51:27 <ais523> you're basically playing {1} to "search out a land" (the land you bounced)
21:51:46 <wob_jonas> isn't it just the rare duals or the Signets or something that they think are slightly too strong?
21:52:29 <ais523> "search your library for a basic land card, place it into your hand, shuffle your library, then draw a card" would be the approximate equivalent of that effect if it were a sorcery rather than a land
21:52:38 <ais523> and that effect surely costs more than {1}
21:52:55 <wob_jonas> I guess they no longer print other lands that etb tapped and give two mana, they never printed versions that give RR or something, only the dual ones, and only that cycle
21:53:17 <wob_jonas> but I just thought there just aren't any reasonable versions they could invent other than this one cycle of ten
21:53:58 <wob_jonas> and they didn't want to print mono-colored ones, because they rarely have non-basic land slots for that sort of luxury that doesn't fix mana, like only once in every two years or so
21:54:55 <ais523> my attempt at designing that: "~ enters the battlefield tapped. If ~ would untap, instead you may pay {1}, if you do untap it. T: add GW to your mana pool."
21:55:11 <wob_jonas> what? how is that equivalent? why are you even searching for basic lands?
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> the common rav duals don't do any searching
21:55:28 <ais523> they bounce a land to your hand
21:55:36 <wob_jonas> yes, but doesn't search for any color
21:55:54 <ais523> I decided that giving you two specific colors was similar to searching for one
21:56:07 <ais523> although not identical, they will be of similar strength in three-color decks
21:56:24 <wob_jonas> I think fixing five colors is stronger than fixing two, and wizards seems to think so too, at least on dual lands
21:56:33 <wob_jonas> triple lands and five-colored lands always seem weaker
21:56:56 <ais523> most 5c lands actually released are terrible, though
21:57:01 <ais523> `card-by-name Mana Confluence
21:57:01 <HackEso> Mana Confluence \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ JOU-R, EXP-M
21:57:07 <ais523> `card-by-name Cavern of Souls
21:57:07 <HackEso> Cavern of Souls \ Land \ As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell of the chosen type, and that spell can't be countered. \ AVR-R, MM3-M
21:57:13 <ais523> those are the only two that are commonly played
21:57:29 <ais523> (although there's a nerfed version of Cavern now which also see play; Cavern is totally bonkers)
21:57:38 <wob_jonas> no, there's a better one, but deck-specific
21:58:00 <ais523> there's one that generates any color but it can only be used for creatures, ditto one like that for artifacts
21:58:06 <HackEso> Ancient Ziggurat \ Land \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell. \ CON-U, H09-U
21:58:08 <ais523> the former is sometimes played in exclusively-creatures decks
21:58:53 <ais523> being able to generate any color for artifacts isn't all that useful an effect ;-)
21:58:59 <wob_jonas> works even in decks with only 32 creatures, not 36
21:59:13 <ais523> only some of them, you need to get mana for activated abilities from somewhere
21:59:31 <wob_jonas> but yes, I understand the point, it's worse late game if you aren't playing a deck where you want to cast a creature card every turn
22:00:20 <wob_jonas> you're right, Cavern of Souls is better in general
22:00:26 <ais523> one of the strongest decks I ever built wanted to play multiple creatures on most turns
22:00:31 <ais523> so it'd love Ancient Ziggurat
22:00:48 <ais523> but it was a tribal deck, so Cavern of Souls would have been even better
22:00:50 <wob_jonas> yes, I have some such decks, and want to build some, and have played against such decks
22:00:54 <ais523> (obviously it'd just play 4 of both though)
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22:05:01 <wob_jonas> back in your text, "Mountain (the basic land for red)" -- wait, there are M:tG players who don't know that? even beginners?
22:06:00 <wob_jonas> remove that parenthetical then, I think
22:06:18 <ais523> it's more focusing on why we pick that card
22:06:20 <ais523> we want a red basic land
22:06:24 <ais523> and Mountain happens to be a red basic
22:06:32 <ais523> I guess we could use Snow-covered Mountain instead? :-D
22:06:48 <wob_jonas> yeah, you could. but it's not cheap
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22:07:23 <ais523> it is compared to most of the cards in that deck :-D
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22:08:29 <wob_jonas> just seems expensive compared to the plain Mountain I guess
22:09:02 <wob_jonas> which is annoying because of the rule that you can actually use more than 4 of them
22:09:16 <wob_jonas> you could, but you'd have to buy them thenm
22:09:42 <ais523> that was also a rule during Coldsnap (i.e. you can run as many as you like but you have to draft them)
22:11:01 * ais523 is imagining what it would be like if that was the rule in Constructed too
22:11:23 <Lymia> Thy also did that in BfZ, didn't they
22:11:29 <ais523> people would join Coldsnap drafts just to draft all the snow lands so that they could legally be played
22:11:42 <wob_jonas> and now they printed a sixth such crazy basic land too, one that you could have more than four of, but you have to buy more than four
22:11:49 <wob_jonas> and I think there are like two creature too
22:12:26 <wob_jonas> um, isn't that still the rule in constructed?
22:13:39 <wob_jonas> I have snow lands, but that's only because I have bought a Coldsnap theme deck, and you can only get 4 of the 5 colors that way
22:14:02 <HackEso> Wastes \ Basic Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ OGW-C
22:14:11 <wob_jonas> so I have 11 snow swamps and 13 snow islands, which is the annoying number, 13 swamps and 11 islands would be so much better
22:14:27 <wob_jonas> (one of those is random, they give one random snow land in foil as a bonus card)
22:14:51 <wob_jonas> (or maybe always a foil snow island? I don't recall. the main deck has only 23 I think.)
22:15:02 <ais523> to be fair, Wastes is normally only played in Commander (where having basic lands can be important and some decks can't legally run any of the other five)
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22:15:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, and some very strange constructed decks. and the two (?) basic creatures are even worse.
22:16:17 <wob_jonas> you only play the creatures in decks that have like at least 20 of them, but possibly 100
22:16:53 <wob_jonas> you know, decks with mostly two cards, one basic land and one basic creature
22:17:08 <ais523> I just checked a database of tournament results, no deck containing Wastes has scored highly enough to be recorded in any tournament in any of the formats it records (Standard, Modern, Legacy)
22:17:11 <wob_jonas> the archetype from back before the 4 card limit
22:17:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: but snow lands would actually be used, because they're almost always better than ordinary basics, so you'd play them in any deck instead of basics if you have even one card that cares about them
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22:18:16 <ais523> oh, it tracks a few other formats too (e.g. Vintage and Pauper)
22:18:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: but how many years back does it go?
22:19:08 <wob_jonas> it's not just current standard, right?
22:20:02 <ais523> since before Wastes was printed
22:20:25 <ais523> I'm not sure how far before but that doesn't really matter, as it can't have placed well in a tournament before it was printed
22:21:11 <ais523> in terms of the snow-covered lands, they only appear to be good in two decks, one of which is red, one of which is blue/red
22:21:18 <ais523> so only the island and mountain are played
22:21:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, the island is the best
22:22:09 <ais523> wouldn't the mountain be best on that theory?
22:22:32 <wob_jonas> I assumed the island would be the best because blue has the best cards that care about snow
22:22:50 <HackEso> Skred \ R \ Instant \ Skred deals damage to target creature equal to the number of snow permanents you control. \ CSP-C
22:22:55 <wob_jonas> maybe I just don't know the red ones
22:23:06 <ais523> that's the only colored cares-about-snow that's tournament playable
22:23:16 <ais523> `card-by-name Scrying Sheets
22:23:16 <HackEso> Scrying Sheets \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}{S}, {T}: Look at the top card of your library. If that card is snow, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-R
22:23:30 <ais523> that's playable if you're running a snow landbase
22:24:43 <wob_jonas> Viscerid Drone would be decent in limited, but not in constructed
22:26:10 <ais523> `card-by-name Mouth of Ronom
22:26:11 <HackEso> Mouth of Ronom \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {4}{S}, {T}, Sacrifice Mouth of Ronom: Mouth of Ronom deals 4 damage to target creature. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-U
22:26:29 <wob_jonas> and there are a few more ones like that that would be good in limited, and give some extra if you have snow mana
22:26:30 <ais523> that's run in the U/R/S deck because it happens to combo really well with the rest of the deck
22:26:58 <ais523> but wouldn't be playable just for the card, it's only there because the deck is built around damage-to-creature effects and is running Skred because of that
22:27:44 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are a few snow hosers, sort of like how there are non-basic-hosers for legacy
22:27:59 <wob_jonas> so everyone playing snow basic lands wouldn't be stable anyway
22:28:33 <ais523> err, nonbasic hosers are really common in Legacy
22:28:35 <ais523> `card-by-name Wasteland
22:28:36 <HackEso> Wasteland \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}, Sacrifice Wasteland: Destroy target nonbasic land. \ TE-U, EXP-M, EMA-R \ \ Wasteland Scorpion \ 2B \ Creature -- Scorpion \ 2/2 \ Deathtouch \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ AKH-C \ \ Wasteland Strangler \ 2B \ Creature -- Eldrazi Processor \ 3/2 \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ When Wasteland Strangler enters the battlefield, you may put a card an opponent owns from exi
22:28:42 <HackEso> Stifle \ U \ Instant \ Counter target activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.) \ SCG-R, CNS-R, MPS_AKH-S
22:29:08 <ais523> (admittedly Stifle being a nonbasic hoser is a bit of a special case, as it doesn't do it directly; it destroys lands by countering abilities with a cost of "Sacrifice ~")
22:29:36 <wob_jonas> snow hosers aren't, there's only like two or three that are any good, plus a few combos but all need cards from those two sets
22:29:51 <ais523> ice ace, alliances, coldsnap ;-)
22:30:11 <wob_jonas> alliances doesn't have any cards mentioning snow, does it?
22:30:18 <wob_jonas> it's in the block, but doesn't have cards
22:30:46 <ais523> `card-by-name storm elemental
22:30:47 <HackEso> Storm Elemental \ 5U \ Creature -- Elemental \ 3/4 \ Flying \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: Tap target creature with flying. \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: If the exiled card is a snow land, Storm Elemental gets +1/+1 until end of turn. \ AI-U, ME2-U
22:31:18 <ais523> homelands doesn't have any though
22:31:42 <ais523> viscerid drone is also from alliances
22:32:31 <ais523> there's also gargantuan gorilla, and winter's night; the latter might or might not be a snow hoser
22:32:34 <ais523> `card-by-name winter's night
22:32:34 <HackEso> Winter's Night \ RGW \ World Enchantment \ Whenever a player taps a snow land for mana, that player adds one mana to his or her mana pool of any type that land produced. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step. \ AI-R, ME2-R
22:32:38 <wob_jonas> four alliances cards mention snow in fact
22:33:14 <wob_jonas> I've even seen two of them in the precon deck, only in the precon they're reprinted with coldsnap symbol and modern frame
22:33:43 <ais523> the precon reprints were given the set symbol from the original set but a modern frame
22:33:46 <wob_jonas> apparently I'm familiar with the cards but not with those old expansions and didn't realize that's where those two came froem
22:33:51 <ais523> I have a dark ritual with a modern frame but an ice age set symbol
22:34:40 <wob_jonas> it's only two cards and I don't notice their exp symbol when I'm scanning through my cards? ok
22:35:31 <wob_jonas> Alliances is one of the worse among the old sets, so I think I just don't recognize the mana symbol
22:36:58 <wob_jonas> there are just too many exp symbols now, I can't keep them all in my head, and that one is one I never see because it's such a bad old block
22:37:08 <esowiki> [[Undefined behavior]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55796&oldid=35566 * Ais523 * (+1113) expand
22:37:47 <esowiki> [[Turing-completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55797 * Ais523 * (+29) Redirected page to [[Turing-complete]]
22:37:48 <wob_jonas> I was hoping they'd realize that and start to use either just one exp symbol per block and fewer distinct exp symbols for non-modern/non-standard products, or some systematic symbols for some series, but no
22:38:17 <wob_jonas> except perhaps for the core sets for six years
22:38:23 <ais523> there was a row about the Dominaria expansion symbol
22:38:39 <ais523> it's in reverse video (on the commons) because Wizards were worried that it looked too much like the Darksteel set symbol
22:38:48 <ais523> but now people are having problems distinguishing commons from uncommons
22:39:07 <wob_jonas> and I think a few of these new low power low number of copies intro set products
22:40:07 <ais523> the intro products share an expansion symbol with the most recent standard-legal set
22:40:18 <ais523> err, at least the Planeswalker decks
22:40:22 <wob_jonas> they at least added a three-letter code that you can look up now, but there's still a random three-letter code for ever standard-legal expansion that you'd have to remember just like the mana symbol
22:40:22 <Lymia> The symbols are still thematically linked, aren't they?
22:40:26 <ais523> I'm not sure what expansion symbol the free packs use
22:40:33 <Lymia> Look at Zendikar block's symbols
22:40:49 <ais523> Lymia: they got simpler over time, then they got more complex again
22:40:59 <wob_jonas> Lymia: in some blocks they were, but the thematic is different in every block, so that only helps if you actually remember any of the three symbols from that one block
22:41:02 <ais523> a symbol like Dragon's Maze is surprisingly detailed
22:41:12 <wob_jonas> Lymia: but good luck with that after blocks
22:41:24 <ais523> some symbols are easy to remember, like Eldritch Moon
22:41:27 <wob_jonas> Lymia: even then it only worked for like every second or third blocks at random
22:41:36 <ais523> but that one's an exception
22:41:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: some symbols are easy to remember because I see them a lot
22:42:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: how is the Eldritch Moon symbol special?
22:43:02 <ais523> you can tell what the set's about just by looking at it
22:43:11 <ais523> which makes it easy to work out what set it belongs to
22:43:16 <wob_jonas> if there's any that's easy to remember, those were the core set ones I think
22:43:31 <wob_jonas> plain numbers or roman numbers from fifth to M2015
22:43:33 <ais523> they're reintroducing core sets (a new one coming out in a few weeks)
22:43:47 <ais523> M2019 is using the same symbol scheme as just before they stopped
22:44:00 <wob_jonas> yes, that one is good, except for the tiny numbers since M2010
22:44:25 <wob_jonas> but at least they're really easy to remember
22:44:37 <wob_jonas> that will be one per year in standard, right? good
22:44:49 <ais523> well, as long as you remember that M2010 is 11th edition, despite the name
22:45:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: or the 12th if you count alpha and beta separately
22:45:15 <wob_jonas> they differ in like two cards technically
22:45:36 <ais523> there are other sets with similar issues that aren't counted as different sets
22:45:44 <wob_jonas> I know I never actually see anything older than Revised but still, if you want to number them
22:45:58 <ais523> there was one set where only half the commons were available in any given pack…
22:46:12 <wob_jonas> I think I have seen a few "cheap" Unlimited cards
22:46:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: so we count Beta as the first core set?
22:46:47 <wob_jonas> because Alpha is the messed up one?
22:46:57 <wob_jonas> but Alpha is still the most expensive set ever
22:47:01 <ais523> or, rather, Alpha is an erroneous print of Beta
22:47:13 <ais523> misprints are normally more valuable than the non-misprinted card…
22:47:32 <ais523> if Alpha were more printed than Beta, then Beta would be more expensive
22:48:12 <wob_jonas> so Alpha is no longer a core set, despite that it's the first ever set, and I thoguht the first products were only core sets (reprint only) and expansion sets, from before they even invented compilation sets and casual sets and stuff
22:48:19 <ais523> no, Alpha is part of Beta
22:48:28 <ais523> collectively called "Limited Edition"
22:48:41 <ais523> you can tell this because Beta cards have black borders, which at the time indicated that it was the first printing of the card
22:48:58 <wob_jonas> right, but don't Alpha cards have black borders too?
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22:49:15 <ais523> I mean, Alpha and Beta both contain "first edition" copies of the same card
22:49:19 <ais523> thus must be the same edition
22:49:59 <wob_jonas> when did they first put reprints in black-bordered expansion sets?
22:50:11 <ais523> whereas Unlimited has white borders, showing that the cards are reprints
22:50:34 <ais523> it's complex, I think before tenth edition they always changed the art
22:50:40 <ais523> so that the card could be argued to be not technically a reprint?
22:51:47 <ais523> but there were definitely reprints in black-bordered sets before tenth, e.g. Birds of Paradise is in the original Ravnica (between 9th and 10th)
22:52:25 <ais523> really the whole border color thing became a mess fairly quickly
22:52:28 <ais523> which is why they got rid of it
22:53:07 <wob_jonas> but also good thing they allow more reprints, and new cards in core sets since M10
22:53:24 <wob_jonas> means too many standard-legal cards
22:53:44 <wob_jonas> they keep inventing new ways to cheat the quota every two yeras
22:54:11 <ais523> well, they intended Standard to rotate faster
22:54:15 <wob_jonas> so the number of new cards keep increasing
22:54:33 <ais523> they thought that would improve the gameplay (and it'd also reduce the number of cards available)
22:54:34 <wob_jonas> even without standard, just more new unique cards all the time
22:54:43 <ais523> but people were unwilling to buy Standard cards if they wouldn't be legal for very long
22:54:53 <wob_jonas> they deny that, but actually keep increasing the numbers in various sneaky ways
22:55:40 <wob_jonas> although some of them aren't modern legal, they're almost all eternal legal and casual legal
22:55:48 <wob_jonas> so it's hard to follow the card pool
22:56:28 <wob_jonas> there are new cards in casual products, new cards in commander products every year, new cards in core sets, mythic rares mean 15 extra new cards per set since Alara or whatever it was,
22:56:52 <ais523> I think the addition of mythics actually reduced the set size
22:56:56 <wob_jonas> I think there will now be four expert expansions printed per year, not two, plus the core sets
22:57:01 <wob_jonas> or will there be only three plus a core set now?
22:57:04 <ais523> sets are larger nowadays but it's because they increased the number of uncommons
22:57:45 <ais523> (each individual rare is more common now than before mythics were added, which greatly reduces the number of rares you need to make the probabilities add to 1)
22:58:00 <wob_jonas> oh wait, Origins is a core set too, right? that's basically M2016 with a funny name
22:58:10 <ais523> yes, Origins is a core set
22:58:29 <ais523> or at least it was in the core set "slot" and had a similar purpose
22:58:29 <wob_jonas> I like core sets, I was sad when they abolished them, and was afraid of abolishing the block system because that would mean four new sets per year,
22:58:49 <wob_jonas> will it be three standard-legal expoansions plus a core set now, or four plus a core sets?
22:59:04 <ais523> the abolishment of core sets demonstrated to me that Magic had a direction different from the one I wanted, but it was a symptom, not a cause
22:59:20 <wob_jonas> and there's always like two legacy-legal casual expansion per yera now, with new cards: yearly commander and one extra per year that keeps changing
22:59:28 <ais523> basically my vision of Magic was as a game which rarely had major changes, just kept getting progressively improved
22:59:37 <ais523> but Wizards see it as a game that relies on frequent shake-ups
22:59:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: what? didn't you realize that way before they abolished core sets?
23:00:11 <Lymia> Without major shakeups, they'll run out of design space, I think
23:00:16 <wob_jonas> oh, I guess they announced that like a year before Origins or more
23:00:27 <ais523> the major shakeups use up design space way faster than incremental improvements would
23:00:29 <wob_jonas> so it's one year earlier than I thought that you're talking about
23:00:55 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who'd like to see each set being 90% similar to the one before, with only balance changes
23:01:16 <ais523> but I doubt that'd make enough money to keep Wizards happy
23:01:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and they're very bad for a casual player who has years when he doesn't even look at M:tG
23:01:33 <wob_jonas> you come back a year later and the whole system has changed, not just one new block and one core set now
23:02:06 <ais523> with Battle for Zendikar they changed a huge number of things all at once
23:02:07 -!- Kai_Bruneji has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/).
23:02:11 <ais523> which will make it hard to see which ones worked and which ones didn't
23:02:42 <wob_jonas> and even when it isn't, they print like twice as many distinct cards a year as they used do, if you care about reprints changing the price and non-tournament-staple cheap cards too and want to look through them to find the common and uncommon gems
23:02:43 <ais523> it doesn't help that that block was the worst block they've produced in years…
23:03:54 <wob_jonas> tenth ed and M2010 both changed a lot of things too at the same time
23:04:38 <ais523> then more recently they've had a rash of balance issues
23:04:56 <ais523> BfZ block's main issue was color balance, e.g. green was basically unplayable
23:05:04 <wob_jonas> such as introducing modern, introducing yearly core sets (instead of one per two year) with new cards, a whole rewrite of the comp rules, a big change in the comp rules respectively
23:05:06 <ais523> but at least that doesn't ruin Standard
23:05:33 <wob_jonas> and that border thing and more reprints in standard-legal expansions I guess
23:05:46 <ais523> more recently they've had huge problems trying to prevent single decks or cards being dominant
23:05:59 <ais523> there have been so many card banned from standard over the past few sets…
23:06:02 <wob_jonas> wait, when did they start the more reprints in standard-legal sets? was it in zendikar? or later?
23:06:17 <ais523> it was meant to be when they got rid of core sets
23:06:23 <ais523> as they had to put the reprints somewhere
23:06:58 <ais523> I'm trying to remember all the standard bans recently
23:08:20 <ais523> there are seven cards banned from Standard right now (with people calling for an eighth), and some of the cards that rotated out at the last rotation were banned at the time, too
23:08:54 <wob_jonas> I think it's actually Coldsnap, one year before Tenth ed, when they decided they can get away with some new way to sneak print more cards every two years if they disguise it well somehow
23:09:00 <ais523> https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions#2017
23:09:06 <wob_jonas> later they got so good in it that they're doing it every year, then more
23:10:00 <ais523> nine total Standard bans since the start of 2017
23:10:14 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:10:37 <wob_jonas> first M2010 and yearly core sets with new cards to make up for the supposed "reduced set sizes" that they announced at Time Spiral (right after the huge but Tenth Ed which is reprint-only but standard-legal), then with casual expansions with eternal-legal cards, and often standard-legal extra stuff
23:11:17 <wob_jonas> that's when they realized they can do this without being too obvious that it's something they repeat every year
23:11:39 <ais523> the most recent Standard ban before that was two cards in 2011, before that was eight in 2005 (five of which were a cycle) and one in 2004, before that was eight in 1999 and two in 1998
23:11:46 <wob_jonas> now we have yearly Commander sets for eternal too
23:11:56 <ais523> so the latest screwup balancing Standard is the worst since 1999…
23:12:01 <wob_jonas> and lots of reprints of old casual cards to make them cheaper
23:12:15 <wob_jonas> sometimes reprints of good eternal cards like Sol Ring too
23:12:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: the cycle is the artifact lands in Mirrodin?
23:13:37 <wob_jonas> and Skullclamp or that blade or sword thingy that often freely sacrifices itself or whatever
23:14:44 <wob_jonas> but yes, they had very few standard bans, often none for years, and also very few bans in limited or block-constructed
23:15:00 <wob_jonas> obviously they still avoid bans in limited, because they suck
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23:15:25 <ais523> 2011 was the dominance of Caw-Blade
23:15:37 <ais523> the card banned from it were Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic
23:16:31 <wob_jonas> Walking Atlas was an errata that was immediate, before the card was even released. that was very rare, and still is. at least that one isn't for power level.
23:17:00 <wob_jonas> they didn't even have oracle texts the last time they'd need that, when they misprinted that mana symbol in some card back in some very old expansion
23:17:25 <HackEso> Marath, Will of the Wild \ RGW \ Legendary Creature -- Elemental Beast \ 0/0 \ Marath, Will of the Wild enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of mana spent to cast it. \ {X}, Remove X +1/+1 counters from Marath: Choose one -- \ Put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. X can't be 0. \ Marath deals X damage to target creature or player. X can't be 0. \ Create an X/X green Elemental creature token. X can't be 0
23:17:40 <ais523> the "X can't be 0" was on-release errata
23:18:07 <ais523> the third mode turned out to be pretty broken without that :-)
23:18:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah yes, Jace. he's the Twilight Sparkle of M:tG, gains a new major power every year. M:tG now has nine Jaces, highest count planeswalker ever, and a surprisingly high number of them were tournament-relevant
23:19:11 <wob_jonas> and like two so broken they dominate a format or is banned
23:19:47 <ais523> there are two Jaces so broken they dominated a format, but I think only JtMS got banned
23:19:54 <ais523> `card-by-name Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
23:19:55 <HackEso> Jace, Vryn's Prodigy \ 1U \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 0/2 \ {T}: Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control. \ [Front face. Transforms into Jace, Telepath Unbound.] \ ORI-M
23:20:10 <ais523> that one dominated a format too, but it never got banned AFAIR
23:20:17 <wob_jonas> there are also nine Chandras, but they don't get that powerful in tournaments, only in the story
23:20:34 <ais523> it was a running joke how many bad Chandras got printed
23:20:40 <ais523> although Wizards managed to print a tournament-viable one eventually
23:22:17 <Lymia> why is the bullet for choose one showing as a half-width katakana ki in IRC
23:22:32 <wob_jonas> and there are seven Ajani, 6 Garruk, 6 Gideon, 7 Liliana, 8 Nissa (wtf, I didn't follow the story, when did she do that?),
23:22:46 <Lymia> Probably because I have znc configured to parse as sjis if utf-8 fails
23:22:53 <Lymia> Why isn't HackEso sending UTF-8
23:23:13 <wob_jonas> but I distinctly remember when some people played with 8 Jaces (4 each of two different ones) in Standard
23:23:26 <wob_jonas> and that was early, in like the first three jaces
23:23:46 <ais523> what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana
23:23:53 <ais523> does it have hiragana too, or is that only fullwidth?
23:24:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: that doesn't really count, though, Jace Beleren was only played to legend-rule the opponent's JtMS
23:24:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: ask oren or zzo38 about that, I don't know anything about shift-jis
23:24:33 <Lymia> Why do that with the original jace rather than new jace
23:24:40 <Lymia> jace, the wallet sculpter
23:24:51 <Lymia> Was it a budget deck thing?
23:25:01 <ais523> Lymia: you were playing 8 Jaces, your own JtMS, and JB in order to legend-rule the opponent's
23:25:21 <ais523> you wouldn't want to legend-rule the opponent's with a JtMS if you could help it as you'd want to play the JtMS afterwards
23:25:32 <ais523> but the legend rule has changed now (and the planeswalker equivalent of it, too)
23:25:41 <ais523> so that sort of trick doesn't work any more
23:25:51 <wob_jonas> I mean, playing wastelands to destroy any of 10 to 20 dual lands relevant in standard, that's fair game. but playing to kill one card? crazy
23:26:07 <ais523> that's how centralised the metagame was
23:26:18 <Lymia> MTG has a sideboard
23:26:20 <ais523> and explains why JtMS and Stoneforge Mystic ended up getting banned
23:26:28 <wob_jonas> playing to kill any artifact, or any red card, or any green card, or any enchantment, or any zero-mana spell, or any one-mana spell, etc, that's also fair
23:26:34 <wob_jonas> but playing to kill one card is crazy
23:26:58 <Lymia> Was this standard?
23:27:01 <wob_jonas> Lymia: yes, but this was 8 jaces in main deck
23:27:16 <wob_jonas> not all decks perhaps, but some tournament standard decks
23:27:25 <wob_jonas> it also had 8 other planeswalkers iirc
23:27:33 <wob_jonas> but that's not as strange as 8 jaces
23:27:38 <ais523> `card-by-name Creeping Tar Pit
23:27:39 <HackEso> Creeping Tar Pit \ Land \ Creeping Tar Pit enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. \ {1}{U}{B}: Creeping Tar Pit becomes a 3/2 blue and black Elemental creature until end of turn and can't be blocked this turn. It's still a land. \ WWK-R
23:27:52 <ais523> ^ genuinely played in Legacy as a JtMS-specific counter
23:28:04 <ais523> at least it doesn't hurt your deck much if the opponent doesn't play JtMS
23:28:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, even 8 Llanowars wouldn't look that strange, and these days you could play them (I only have one of the other ones)
23:28:32 <wob_jonas> it's just 8 Jaces that looks strange for some reason
23:28:40 <ais523> llanowar elf, fyndhorn elf, elvish mystic
23:28:43 <Lymia> Original Jace's still playable, isn't it?
23:28:55 <ais523> Lymia: right, Jace Beleren isn't a terrible card
23:29:44 <wob_jonas> I only have lots of Llanowar Elves and 1 Fyndhorn so far
23:29:46 <ais523> also boreal druid, avacyn's pilgrim, noble hierarch
23:30:00 <ais523> (variants that produce other types of mana)
23:30:11 <ais523> elves of deep shadow, too, but that has a drawback
23:30:37 <ais523> and deathrite shaman (not modern-legal but only because it was banned)
23:30:41 <Lymia> My first deck involved 4x Plated Geopeed/4x Steppe Lynx/4x Adventuring Gear
23:32:08 <ais523> wow, we've got rather offtopic from discussing Omni-Tell
23:33:07 <wob_jonas> I play Arbor elf a lot because it comes up for three reasons: (1) Imperiosaur, (2) I enchant land with auras, especially Elvish Guidance in the elf deck, and get double the lots of mana and go off, great finisher while still a Llanowar effectively, (3) If I can untap the Arbor Elves, I get an extra mana for free, that used to exist but only on card
23:33:07 <wob_jonas> s in 3 mana and up, Arbor Elves is the first at 1 mana and otherwise good card.
23:33:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know. that's deliberate.
23:33:34 <wob_jonas> I can read Omni-Tell later, when we're not having a conversation, and I'm too tired to do anything useful
23:33:50 <ais523> I didn't really mean off-topic
23:33:53 <ais523> more that it had drifted a long way
23:34:23 <wob_jonas> it's just that you're always active on IRC when I'm not there or busy
23:35:07 <wob_jonas> timezone problem or something, despite that you live in Europe
23:35:20 <ais523> I live in Europe but mostly sleep on a US schedule
23:35:23 <wob_jonas> I usually sleep earlier than this weekdays, for work
23:35:34 <wob_jonas> I should be sleeping now actually, but meh
23:35:48 <wob_jonas> and you are only in on weekdays evening US time, and even from that only late
23:36:18 <ais523> well, IRC tends to distract me from work (as it is at the moment!)
23:36:26 <ais523> I was doing an OS update yesterday
23:36:45 <ais523> which was pretty useful as it gave me a lot of esoinspiration (I can't do much but talk during those)
23:36:47 <ais523> it didn't go too well, though
23:36:53 <ais523> lots of things are still broken
23:37:46 <wob_jonas> Lymia: you started at Zendikar? I see
23:38:01 <Lymia> face is the place *nod nod*
23:38:02 <wob_jonas> I hear that was a surprisingly good set, so that makes sense
23:39:59 <wob_jonas> I started at Coldsnap (actually played the first time at Dissension, which is one set before, but bought the first card of my own when Coldsnap was out)
23:40:08 <ais523> good sets tend to bring in new players for the set afte
23:40:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, that must have been it for me
23:40:29 <ais523> Avacyn Restored is considered a fairly bad set but was very popular
23:40:35 <wob_jonas> the ravnica BLOCK was good, not just Dissension specifically
23:40:50 <ais523> huh, I /finished/ at Coldsnap, pretty much
23:40:59 <ais523> I abandoned Magic during Lorwyn as I wasn't enjoying it at all
23:42:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: I paused or stopped buying cards shortly before New Phyrexia (not because of that set, just at)
23:43:12 <wob_jonas> because we could no longer play regularly, and always play so rarely that it's not worth my time to figure out which cards to buy
23:43:28 <wob_jonas> but I'm considering to get back at some point, casually, and buy more cards
23:43:31 <esowiki> [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55798&oldid=55791 * HereToAnnoy * (-17) more typos/clarification
23:43:52 <wob_jonas> as in, a casual way, not for tournaments
23:44:52 <wob_jonas> it didn't help that New Phyrexia was when I was still in university, so relatively poor when it comes to my own money, with my parents and the state supporting my education but I don't want to spend *that* on M:tG
23:45:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Equipage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55799 * Ais523 * (+614) /* Minimized purely concatenative languages */ new section
23:45:38 <wob_jonas> compared to being not rich but at least having my own money I earn myself from a job, which means I can spend it on objectionable stuff, and M:tG is one of those
23:46:40 <ais523> I don't want to spend money on M:tG any more
23:46:42 <ais523> I think it's being mismanagd
23:46:44 <wob_jonas> \oren\, zzo38: "<ais523> what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana"
23:46:57 <wob_jonas> pinging them because they're the ones on this channel that I think might know this off-hand
23:47:00 <ais523> hmm, I guess I could just look it up
23:47:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm good at this sort of stuff, for anything relevant on the west, but I don't know the oriental ones like shift-jis and kanjis and fullwidth graphics characters etc
23:47:58 <ais523> looks like half-width katakana and a few half-width punctuation marks
23:48:11 <ais523> also it doesn't have all of ASCII
23:48:16 <ais523> it's missing backslash and tilde
23:49:11 <wob_jonas> right, I guess makes sense, some of the ISO-646 replace it too, but only together with at least six others, not alone
23:49:36 <wob_jonas> caret and underscore and backtick are the ones I thought you can lose alone or in pair without losing any other ascii
23:49:47 <wob_jonas> oh right, backslash for the yen sign
23:49:59 <ais523> oddly, it has the C0 control codes (including DEL), but doesn't obey Ecma-35 rules because it uses some of the C1 bytes as the leading byte of a two-byte sequence
23:50:21 <wob_jonas> I think that appeared even in some early 8-bit no-shift character set
23:51:16 <ais523> …after thinking about it, Ecma-35 is pretty ridiculous, isn't it?
23:51:21 <ais523> no wonder terminal encoding is so difficult
23:51:58 <ais523> nah, C1s are commonly used, it's just that they're written with the 7-bit encoding
23:52:12 <ais523> so that they don't clash with a character encoding that uses the C1s for illict purposese
23:52:37 <ais523> ESC [ is a 7-bit encoding of CSI, for example, that's really commonly used
23:52:41 <wob_jonas> also, somehow today there are very few places that filter out \x00 or \x7f, and very few programs that consider it whitespace
23:53:11 <ais523> interestingly, CSI is in Unicode but terminals don't recognise it when it uses a multibyte encoding
23:54:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it encodes to two bytes, and terminals usually have the VT-100 state machine not do any complex character decoding beforehand?
23:54:09 <ais523> IRC should use that for color codes really :-P
23:54:28 <wob_jonas> IRC has its own strange mirc color codes system that's horrible
23:54:52 <ais523> it could without any incompatibilities
23:55:07 <pikhq> Yeah, but that's not what's done.
23:55:09 <wob_jonas> really horrible, much more so than the VT-100 state machine, because it's small but has bad rules, can't encode certain combos because it's missing terminators
23:55:34 <ais523> stick a zero-width space in there
23:55:35 <wob_jonas> unless you color the character before that or put some other formatting on the digit too
23:55:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, that works now that everyone interprets every irc channel as utf-8 too
23:56:10 <wob_jonas> people started that only like 5 years ago
23:56:28 <Lymia> [color]04[digit] works in the IRC scheme
23:56:31 <pikhq> 10 years ago it was less common, but still a thing.
23:56:50 <Lymia> At least, Hexchat's implementation
23:57:03 <wob_jonas> when did the admins of freenode/#ubuntu-hu stop insisting that they're encoded iso-8859-2 and anyone who types utf-8 is warned and then quieted?
23:57:31 <wob_jonas> I still remember that change, it was great, but not when it was
23:58:46 <wob_jonas> that was the last channel where anyone pretended that irc doesn't use utf-8 in typical channel messages
23:59:37 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:59:44 <wob_jonas> it's now a de-facto standard that messages to public are utf-8 by default, althoguh you can still encode any byte string except for three bytes in IRC messages internal between agreeing clients