00:24:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:48:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:56:43 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 00:59:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:44:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:28:19 [[GetWhen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+5370) created page about a horrible weirdlang 02:28:50 [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55710&oldid=55648 * HereToAnnoy * (+41) blah blah blah horrible weirdlang 02:31:41 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 02:36:44 -!- zemhill____ has joined. 02:36:44 -!- zemhill___ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:43:48 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55711&oldid=55682 * Iamcalledbob * (+111) /* Examples */ 02:44:17 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55712&oldid=55711 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Turing-Completeness */ 02:52:15 -!- alercah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:58:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 02:58:40 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 03:00:51 -!- alercah has joined. 03:14:34 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55713&oldid=55712 * Iamcalledbob * (+99) /* Commands */ 03:50:10 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55714&oldid=55713 * Iamcalledbob * (+2) /* Commands */ 03:50:24 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55715&oldid=55714 * Iamcalledbob * (+1) /* Commands */ 03:59:53 [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55716&oldid=55715 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Commands */ 04:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:42:27 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55717&oldid=54867 * Iamcalledbob * (+32) /* Survey */ 04:43:39 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55718&oldid=55717 * Iamcalledbob * (+29) /* Survey */ 04:44:04 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:53:03 [[$]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55719 * Iamcalledbob * (+1366) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, $. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number has "+..." 04:53:33 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55720&oldid=55707 * Iamcalledbob * (+8) 04:54:06 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55721&oldid=55718 * Iamcalledbob * (+53) /* Survey */ 04:54:50 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55722&oldid=55720 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* F */ 04:55:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55723&oldid=55722 * Iamcalledbob * (-17) /* F */ 05:29:04 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55724&oldid=55688 * Iamcalledbob * (+169) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */ 05:41:51 -!- fractal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:47:58 [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55725&oldid=55702 * Iamcalledbob * (+31) /* Turing-completeness */ 05:48:35 [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55726&oldid=55725 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Turing-completeness */ 06:37:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:46:02 -!- xkapastel has joined. 07:10:30 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+157) Created page with "I discovered that the Befunge program 9482350042>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ 's output turns out to be 105260548 . My password is :12345678 My username is : Iamcalledbob" 07:11:02 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55728&oldid=55727 * Iamcalledbob * (+10) 07:13:14 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55729&oldid=55724 * Iamcalledbob * (-1) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */ 07:19:12 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55730&oldid=55728 * Iamcalledbob * (+1035) 07:19:43 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55731&oldid=55730 * Iamcalledbob * (+12) 07:21:14 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55732&oldid=55731 * Iamcalledbob * (+92) 07:23:05 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55733&oldid=55732 * Iamcalledbob * (+137) 07:25:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:27:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:29:20 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:30:40 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:30:49 -!- ATMunn has joined. 07:31:22 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 07:31:32 [[User:Iamcalledbob]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55734&oldid=55733 * Iamcalledbob * (+146) 07:32:42 -!- tromp has joined. 07:39:25 [[(]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55735 * Iamcalledbob * (+394) Created page with "==(== ===( is a deprivative of $ that only works when the current user is dead.=== ===This makes it impossible to use.=== ==Computability(Halting problem)== ===If the user is..." 07:40:22 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55736&oldid=55686 * Iamcalledbob * (+69) 08:53:30 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:33:43 [[Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55737&oldid=53509 * Chris Pressey * (-19) Using Wayback for this purpose seems slightly wasteful or misguided or something 09:44:47 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+436) Created page with "==ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE== ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Alphabet numbers !! controls | 1 || input a string and push it onto the stack |- | 2 || clear the next..." 09:45:51 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55739&oldid=55723 * Iamcalledbob * (+36) /* O */ 09:46:29 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55740&oldid=55738 * Iamcalledbob * (+28) 09:47:21 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55741&oldid=55740 * Iamcalledbob * (+11) 09:47:52 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55742&oldid=55741 * Iamcalledbob * (+17) /* Hello,world */ 09:48:28 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55743&oldid=55742 * Iamcalledbob * (+11) /* Hello,world */ 10:00:30 [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55744 * Keymaker * (+2211) Some thoughts. 10:04:06 [[ON THE WAY TO WHO KNOWS WHERE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55745&oldid=55743 * Iamcalledbob * (+221) /* Commands */ 10:12:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:29:11 -!- boily has joined. 10:34:17 [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55746&oldid=55515 * Keymaker * (+1951) Added Sub to MM translation example. 10:50:00 [[Category talk:2018]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55747 * Chris Pressey * (+252) There appears to be a eird technical issue with this category page? 10:52:35 [[2D-BCT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55748 * Iamcalledbob * (+2149) Created page with "==2D-BCT== I want to design a language that includes all the purposes of an esolang. ==BCT== A '''BCT program''' is any finite string of bits (commands), executed as follows:..." 10:53:02 [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55749&oldid=55700 * Iamcalledbob * (+4) /* Brevity */ 10:56:41 [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55750&oldid=55749 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */ 10:56:54 [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55751&oldid=55750 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* Brevity */ 10:57:11 [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55752&oldid=55751 * Iamcalledbob * (-4) /* Brevity */ 10:57:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FEELING CHICKEN). 11:29:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:39:18 [[Talk:Expload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55753&oldid=34973 * Chris Pressey * (+1852) Thoughts from re-reading this article 11:47:57 -!- fractal has joined. 11:59:18 [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55754&oldid=54312 * Chris Pressey * (-2) The article includes an implementation, so, move from Unimplemented to Implemented category 12:25:54 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55755&oldid=55754 * Chris Pressey * (+181) Add summary that hopefully makes it clear what a zeroing trigger actually does. 12:37:19 [[Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+2051) Created page with "==Brianfuck== ==Brainfuck Info== Brainfuck operates on an array of memory cells, also referred to as the [[tape]], each initially set to zero. There is a [[pointer]], initiall..." 12:37:42 [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55757&oldid=55756 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* In all of the questions, Brianfuck has only 1 byte, but Flogscript has a lot. */ 12:38:25 [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55758&oldid=55757 * Iamcalledbob * (+31) 12:40:11 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55759&oldid=54320 * Chris Pressey * (+548) Wondering if I've missed something re the declared undefined behaviour 12:43:04 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:43:18 hi guys, I have two questions 12:43:21 one actual, and one esoteric 12:47:49 In Windows, the taskbar buttons used to have a different background color for minimized windows than for restored windows. but apparently for windows 10, or at least this windows 10 machine, that isn't the case. 12:49:51 This is very annoying, and I don't know how to change it. I've set the option "settings / personalization / colors / more options / show accent color on the following surfaces / start, taskbar, and action center", which recolors the taskbar buttons from black to colored, but that doesn't fix this. 12:51:04 also, some of the taskbar buttons have a slightly lighter backround, but I can't figure out what that means 12:52:13 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55760&oldid=55759 * Chris Pressey * (+738) 12:54:47 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55761&oldid=55760 * Chris Pressey * (+238) 13:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:03:30 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55762&oldid=55736 * Iamcalledbob * (+0) /* General languages */ 13:08:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:10:57 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:12:54 -!- MDude has joined. 13:19:54 -!- imode has joined. 13:28:15 -!- MDead has joined. 13:30:11 [[Equipage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55763&oldid=55625 * Chris Pressey * (+3997) Import some description from its README (which I wrote and which is also in the public domain anyway.) Remove 'stub' macro. 13:30:21 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:30:29 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 13:31:18 " in "our" world, strings are terms built exclusively from unary function symbols (and one constant for the empty string)." => exactly, in my world too. strings are inconvenient, and for a long time I didn't understand why everyone in mathematics didn't just work with tree-like terms, 13:31:34 with the string representation being mostly irrelevant and a job for computer stuff. but later I realized why: 13:32:42 you need the strings themselves for bootstrapping of Godel numbering if you want to prove that there are undecidable *arithmetic* statements using the natural numbers and addition and multiplication and equality and first-order logic 13:33:47 because even that way (and even if you enable to power operation), translating loops to first-order statements on arithmetic is the hard part, and looping on a string you can just barely manage and stay in delta-zero or whatever that thing is, 13:33:56 but looping on a tree would be impossible directly. 13:34:18 uh... I don't know the details, I don't have them swapped in my head right now, but the point is, 13:34:28 there is a good reason why sometimes you have to consider strings, 13:34:39 even though normally you prefer a term to mean tree-like stuff 13:40:44 -!- xificurC has joined. 13:42:19 -!- idris-bot has joined. 13:42:59 -!- xificurC has left. 13:44:02 [[PLEASE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+1103) Created page with "[[$]] ==Explanation== There is only 1 command, assign. A place only has numbers. If anything is assigned to cell number 0, print the ASCII value out. Like: 2313132 A number h..." 13:44:40 [[PLEASE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55765&oldid=55764 * Iamcalledbob * (+14) /* Turing-Completeness */ 13:48:51 [[Talk:Brianfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55766 * ZM * (+276) Created page with "==Duplicate title== Small hint: when creating a page, it is unnecessary to include a header with the page name at the beginning as this is included automatically by MediaWiki..." 13:52:57 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55767&oldid=55761 * B jonas * (+664) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ 13:56:21 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:59:18 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Equipage => I think this one is probably Turing-complete. You can probably translate Underload to this. 13:59:39 hmm wait no 13:59:45 what I was thinking of won't work 14:00:04 you need some tricky way to build quoted functions 14:00:51 probably with a number of fixed functions on the top of the stack all the time 14:01:04 but I'm not sure how you'd bootstrap some trees or something 14:01:27 -!- imode has joined. 14:02:29 darn, I think I have an idea for that one, but I'd have to reduce a very small subset of Consumer Society into it 14:02:51 and I could only simulate a turing machine with one tape that way 14:02:56 and I don't see how I could do better than that 14:03:31 I should instead try a negative proof 14:03:49 proving that there are certain interesting things that the language can't do but that you expect such a language to do 14:10:50 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:16:29 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55768&oldid=55767 * Chris Pressey * (+674) 14:23:54 -!- imode has joined. 14:30:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:40:47 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55769&oldid=55768 * Chris Pressey * (+224) 14:46:32 [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55770&oldid=55721 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Survey */ typo 14:51:12 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55771&oldid=55769 * Chris Pressey * (+85) parenthetical addendum 14:51:23 no second question by the way, I solved it by searching the internet for the right terms 14:51:36 I haven't solved the first one, about the windows taskbar 14:51:49 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55772&oldid=55771 * Chris Pressey * (-4) 14:54:23 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55773&oldid=55772 * Chris Pressey * (-1) 14:59:52 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55774&oldid=55773 * B jonas * (+470) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ 15:00:43 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55775&oldid=55774 * Chris Pressey * (+235) 15:03:34 [[Category:2018]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55776&oldid=53928 * Oerjan * (+1) Dummy edit to bump cache 15:05:03 [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55777&oldid=55747 * Oerjan * (+346) Known bug 15:34:21 well, just made a string rewriting interpreter that supports comments. going to have it support variable delimiters too. 15:35:32 imode: do you mean an interpreter that interprets a string-rewriting language, or an interpreter implemented in a string-rewriting language? 15:35:44 interpreter that interprets a string rewriting language. 15:35:58 oh, that's easier 15:36:02 that it is. :P 15:36:54 the interface of my spare phone is so counter-intuitive, I already hate it, and I've barely used it 15:37:17 I'll have to look for a better phone 15:37:28 comments are just lines that don't contain the delimiter, and I'm thinking of having the top two lines define the delimiter for each of the rules and the end of the rules. 15:40:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:43:01 did they even do proper user interface testing for this, where a good software tester guy uses this phone in practice for weeks and writes down everything that should be changed? 15:43:16 they don't make phones the way they used to anymore 15:48:54 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:51:08 you need some tricky way to build quoted functions <-- indeed, the functions seem to be mostly of the form "push X to", but no way to iterate it. 15:52:27 *to stack 15:52:49 [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55778&oldid=55706 * Ais523 * (+271) /* Commands and syntax */ explain halt behaviour explicitly 15:53:26 oerjan: I think I'll be able to construct a proof. I have an idea. but I have to get back to that later, I'm busy with other stuff now. 15:53:32 but having all of them permanently in a know position on the stack might get around it like you said. 15:53:36 *known 15:55:42 oh and pick can pick from bottom, that helps 15:56:33 wob_jonas: so you can put your fixed functions there instead of at the top 16:07:57 -!- Elronnd\srn has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:11:48 [[Talk:Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55779&oldid=55744 * Ais523 * (+3164) r to Keymaker 16:13:51 oh, it can pick from the bottom of the stack for negative values? that makes it way too easy 16:13:52 darn 16:13:58 I didn't notice that 16:14:18 I think I have a solution for picking from the top only though 16:14:48 although I'm not really sure it works 16:14:58 [[Category talk:2018]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55780&oldid=55777 * Ais523 * (+355) https vs. http 16:15:19 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:16:12 and I think the instructions -%\ aren't even necessary 16:16:46 you need !:.~ for everything, and 1+ to make numbers for ~ 16:17:02 oh, and $ is useful too, because we often need to discard 16:17:19 still, it's an ugly model to work with 16:17:39 I don't think I'll be able to do more than a tape 16:19:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:24:53 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55781&oldid=55775 * Ais523 * (+1997) /* Undefined behavior */ explain 16:29:32 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55782&oldid=55781 * Chris Pressey * (+501) 16:30:18 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55783&oldid=55782 * Ais523 * (+1044) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ (ec) replies 16:40:33 [[Chronofuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+1427) created the page 16:42:10 https://ptpb.pw/UZpd/python https://ptpb.pw/g_93/text 16:42:24 my interpreter and a sample program. not quite thue, but good enough. 16:42:25 [[Chronofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55785&oldid=55784 * Jabutosama * (+87) 16:46:20 the next thing to do is work on getting a minimal state machine working, then I can translate line-numbers to states. 16:47:47 essentially, I want certain rules to apply when we're in a certain state. the problem is that I want to take any given set of rules (within a reasonable range) and be able to either prefix or postfix or do some simple modification to them to make them run sequentially based on conditions. 16:49:09 and I'd like to translate this whole thing to a queue problem so I don't have to continually start over in my pattern search, but I'm having a hard time getting it to halt, considering the result for "no pattern matched" is to dequeue and requeue a symbol, rather than fail. 16:49:31 I have a feeling I can do it by just using a marker on the queue, but the signalling involved gets weird. 17:00:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:31:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:46:06 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55786&oldid=55555 * Truttle1 * (+55) Added AsciiDots 17:46:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:47:23 -!- Kai_Bruneji has joined. 17:51:53 -!- laerling has joined. 17:52:35 -!- imode has joined. 17:54:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:58:37 [[PUBERTY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55787&oldid=55654 * Izumariu * (+453) Added truth machine example and added wiki links to the examples 18:01:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:02:11 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:10:55 [[Neg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55788&oldid=53755 * HereToAnnoy * (+48) fsm i hate all of my languages 18:25:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:10 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:42:12 [[GetWhen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55789&oldid=55709 * HereToAnnoy * (+1239) Added line number system (creating superpositions, yay). Hopefully this makes the language just a bit esoteric from the when function. 18:42:29 DARN IT! 18:42:35 this phone is so annoying I have to rant about it 18:43:13 I'm still experimenting with it, so there's a lot I don't know, but there's a lot of annoying things I found already that I must rant to you now 18:44:07 I'd tell you what phone it is, but I'm not sure, because I forgot and the fucking type number isn't written anywhere on it, not even on the label under the battery, nor in the UI 18:44:28 so it's a Nokia non-smartphone but I don't know the number 18:44:34 anyway 18:45:09 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55790&oldid=55739 * HereToAnnoy * (+14) /* G */ 18:45:44 firstly, I still haven't discovered a safe button sequence without timeouts that takes me to the home screen from most states, including when the phone is locked. 18:46:35 the R button seems safe anywhere (except during a call that it hangs up), and it's a good start, but it can take you to one of *four* states, one of which decay into a fifth state by timeout, and I'm not sure how to proceed from that 18:46:50 I'll have to make a table of the state automaton to figure this one out 18:46:57 it's too complicated to solve in my head 18:47:18 (and one of the four states decays into one other of the fourth state by timeout) 18:47:43 I'd like a short sequence, but prefer one that includes optional timeouts between most button presses in it, so I can take a pause during in most places 18:48:16 (you can't take a pause anywhere, and for a good reason, becuase from the locked state you can't get into the unlocked state with single presses with pauses between, which is good design) 18:48:27 and I'd like a sequence with no mandatory timeouts 18:49:12 but this is not obvious, because one of the states is the home screen, which has almost every button bound to do something, only the P button goes back to the home screen 18:49:26 no 18:49:28 not even the P button 18:49:34 on the home screen, EVERY button does something 18:49:46 as in, goes to some other state 18:50:10 not necessarily something harmful, but goes to some state that I have to consider 18:50:23 I'll definitely need a state map 18:50:41 anyway, I'll get back to this when I mapped all the states, but for now, other stuff 18:50:53 2. the music player 18:51:11 I expected to find a functional music player in this phone. the description when I bought said it had one. 18:51:35 well, it can play the mp3s from my SD card, but the media player is so messed up it's completely unusable for me 18:51:37 let me tell you why 18:51:57 the worst part is that it won't play albums in order 18:52:37 it apparently ignores the album and track number metadata in the file entirely, which is a good thing because some of the files I have on it aren't encoded by me and don't have it filled correctly 18:52:59 instead it lists music by directory, in some tree order on the file system 18:53:00 which is good 18:53:05 because that puts albums together 18:53:22 BUT THE ORDER OF THE TRACKS IN A DIRECTORY seems to follow no logic I can discover 18:53:37 in some directories it's in order, in some there are ordered parts, in some it's completely jumbled 18:53:43 I swear I have good filenames 18:54:12 in some directories, the filenames actually only differ in three digits, and you'd just have to sort by those. there's no way to mess up sorting in that directory if you sort by filename. 18:55:01 the files in that directory show up in the correct order if I view them in the file browser of the phone, but I can't play music from there: actually you sort of can, but it only plays one file and won't continue to other files in any way if you do that 18:55:15 and in the music player app, the files in that directory show up in some apparently random order 18:55:33 it's also not the track number, because I created these files myself and filled the track number and other metadata well 18:55:49 you can't create playlists or reorder the playlist or anything as far as I can tell 18:56:01 so there's just no absolutely no way to play a fucking album in order 18:56:48 the other problem is that you can't easily play music in the background, while doing something else 18:57:46 you sort of almost can, but it messes up the home screen, hijacking seven of the important buttons as media player controls, which makes the phone almost impossible to use 18:59:07 oh, I haven't even considered those states in the automaton in my head, darn it. that complicates the states even more. 18:59:39 that's at least two more states that the R key can take you, I think 18:59:46 3. SMS 19:00:05 I haven't played much with this, but there's one thing I discovered 19:02:03 if you start to write an SMS, accidentally put a single digit in the To field (which is supposed to have the phone number top send to), then in the Content field, you accidentally press G or E, which would normally send the message, then the phone tries to send the message and fails because the recipient is invalid. so far this sounds ok. 19:02:40 but when the message is failed to be sent, it goes into a libo state where I can view the first pageful or delete, but as far as I can see, there's no way to continue editing or view the rest of the text or anything. 19:03:32 the messages application main screen has a list of conversations (grouped by phone number) with all sorts mixed (sent, draft, incoming), 19:04:28 then if you choose one of those, you get into this horrible bubble view where you see each SMS (whether sent, incoming, or draft) in the conversation as this speech bubble thing, and when you select one, you have to press E to view its full text and metadata, 19:05:01 but for messages that were failed to send, E resends the message, which fails again, and there's nothing else you can do to recover from that state other then delete the message. 19:05:46 so basically, one wrong button press in the To field (you obviously don't enter a valid recipient there, because then you can accidentally send the message early) and then one wrong buttonn press while typing the message, and you're screwed. 19:06:58 [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55791&oldid=55789 * HereToAnnoy * (+78) typos & minor tweaks 19:06:59 At least if you actually leave the To field empty, then when you accidentally try to send (with E or G in the content field while composing), it actually just shows an error message and lets you continue editing 19:07:26 but mind you, that error message takes your cursor to the To field which you'll then accidentally fill with a digit 19:07:42 so it's not even hard to carelessly enter the limbo state 19:07:48 fuck you 19:08:22 do these people even know how ui testing works? just give the phone to a power user for two weeks and he'll tell you half of this 19:08:52 there's more but I haven't discovered everything yet 19:09:02 these are just the highlights 19:11:34 I think I understand why the type number isn't written anywhere, not even under the battery as it normally is with sane phones 19:11:39 they don't want people to write bad reviews 19:11:49 and you can't really if you can't tell what phone it is you're reviewing 19:12:15 (I think it's a Nokia 216, but I can't swear on that. I've bought it 7 months ago just to have a spare and thrown away the box.) 19:12:57 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55792&oldid=55786 * HereToAnnoy * (+504) added GetWhen 19:13:07 oh wait 19:13:09 `ping 19:13:10 pong 19:13:18 4. time setting 19:14:49 in the menu for setting the current time and date, there's an entry saying "Auto-update time". if you turn it on, it hides all the other settings in that menu, so you can't set the clock. I don't know why. 19:15:18 I think it's trying to get the time from the internet, but I don't have an internet connection enabled or something, and it doesn't actually get the correct time without or anything. 19:15:56 but seriously, it even hides the option for 12 hour versus 24 hour and the time zone, I have no idea why. 19:15:59 So I turn that option off. 19:16:08 now I'm trying to set the time 19:16:12 the menu entries are: 19:16:16 1. Auto-update time 19:16:21 2. time zone 19:16:23 3. time 19:16:28 4. time format (24 hour) 19:16:32 5 date 19:16:42 6. show date and time 19:16:47 3 and 5 works, I can set the time and date 19:18:03 2 is strange, it might be working or it might not: it displays some list of timezones, including "GMT +1 Paris", "GMT +2 Cairo", "GMT +2 Athens" etc 19:18:16 but nowhere is the daylight saving mentioned 19:18:30 it doesn't tell anywhere that I'm supposed to be in +0200 now if I set to "GMT +1 Paris" 19:18:37 doesn't tell UTC time anywhere 19:18:47 I don't know what timezone it uses and whether it will adjust DST 19:19:17 I don't think it even has all timezones (with dst settings) that it should, but has redundant timezones 19:21:17 ah, it does have all timezones 19:21:22 just with really strange names I can't recognize 19:22:27 the Reykyavik timezone (always +0000) is called "GMT Casablanca", the London timezone is "GMT London", the Paris timezone is "GMT +1 Paris" and "GMT +1 Rome" and GMT +1 Warsaw" and "GMT +1 Berlin" (aren't those all the same now?) 19:23:40 then the Bucharest timezone is "GMT +2 Helsinki", that's fine 19:25:41 then there's "GMT +2 Cairo" 19:25:57 ok, I think it has all big timezones, but it doesn't seem to have a way to turn off DST changing for some offsets 19:26:21 there's only three -0500 base offset timezones, and all three have DST 19:27:47 that means it actually doesn't have the timezone for -0500 no DST, which is used in Jamaica 19:27:54 not that I want to travel there, but strange timezone list 19:29:03 or the one in Bolivia, which has a DST. the three -5 timezones listed are "GMT -5 Washington D.C.", "GMT -5 Toronto", "GMT -5 New York", 19:30:02 which are all three the same timezones, the New York one 19:30:13 I don't even know if this phone even does DST adjustments 19:30:24 but if it doesn't, then why is there even a "time zone" setting? 19:30:31 it doesn't display the time zone or UTC time anywhere, 19:30:49 and since my SD card uses the FAT file system, by custom it stores only local times 19:30:59 so I have no idea how it will behave at the DST change date 19:34:50 the time setting is annoying by the way, because you can only set the clock to a specific minute, but if you wait a minute on that screen in this phone, it darkens the screen and the first button press won't accept the time setting, so you're screwed if you don't keep pressing buttons 19:34:58 but that's not specific to this phone, it happens on many devices 19:35:37 I just met it too many times because the phone is still new and I've been removing the battery several times and have to set the clock every time after it 19:36:05 because if the battery is removed even for a second, then the internal clock no longer keep the time, it stops 19:36:09 fuck you 19:36:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:36:26 sure, that one is hard to fix 19:36:35 electrically 19:40:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:47:22 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:47:33 5. on the plus side, this one charges from that type of USB connector that most phones do these days 19:47:49 so I can get rid of one more special charger type 19:47:54 -!- choochter has joined. 19:48:05 my previous phone used a cylindrical charger plug 19:48:14 now I only have four types of chargers: 19:48:44 the normal USB stuff for this phone and the bluetooth microphone (and probably future small devices too, like a better phone), 19:48:54 the other USB stuff for my camera 19:48:59 (I don't know the names of these) 19:49:14 plus a special one for the electric toothbrush and a special one for the shaver 19:49:27 but the latter two have serious waterproofing requirements 19:49:42 the both allow charging while wet 19:50:05 so they can't use normal plugs 20:06:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:15:27 hi ais523 20:15:34 hi 20:15:53 I just ranted about the UI of my new phone, and I haven't even discovered most of it. you can logread if you want, but it's a rant, hard to read 20:15:56 do you have any feedback on my M:tG stuff so far? 20:16:05 um, did you give me a link? 20:16:09 I haven't read what you've written 20:16:19 am I supposed to have found the link to the M:tG stuff? 20:16:20 I did, let me try to find it in the logs so that I can relink it 20:16:32 either that or I tried to send it but it didn't go through for some reason 20:16:34 you could link it from the esowiki somewhere at least 20:16:47 if it was only in irc, I might have missed it 20:17:02 [Wednesday, 13 June 2018] [14:36:28 BST] wob_jonas: nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-maindeck.html.txt nethack4.org/pastebin/b31dfab1-de3c-4c61-8402-07738b794487-setup.html.txt (these are temporary links that won't stay up that long, and these are not the final versions of the files) 20:17:12 I don't want to be linking to temporary versions on the esowiki 20:17:21 this is a work in progress and I don't want people advertising it everywhere until it's done 20:18:12 ok 20:18:52 I must have missed that, I didn't read the logs of #esoteric carefully in a few days because I was very busy 20:18:59 I still am, but whatever 20:24:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 20:24:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:24:55 ais523: I will look at these two 20:26:28 "it means that you can't pull this off in a tournament (where the opponent is unlikely to have the deck you need or to cooperate in setting the gamestate up), which in turn means that you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules (which contain things like infinite loop handling, and thus are very relevant for this sort of work)." 20:26:37 AFK for a bit 20:27:00 I don't quite like this game sentence in the introduction. I know what you mean but only because of earlier context from our discussions. 20:27:13 The problem is that these are two different things that this statement doesn't explain. 20:27:58 1. you can't pull this off in a tournament. ok, but at this point (and for very long in the text) as a reader I won't believe that there's any such setup that you can pull off in a tournament, so it's not obvious what contrast you're talking here, 20:28:08 that's what you're trying to explain, but you'r conflating it with 20:28:16 2. you can't mess around with the Tournament Rules 20:28:27 I don't think that's a reasonable implication or equivalence 20:28:50 you can use the the Tournament rules anywhere 20:29:11 it is a reasonable base even for unsanctioned tournaments, for which you just ignore the sections about DCI number and whatever 20:29:30 but it's a good framework so you might use some of its rules even at home or something 20:29:44 they might be relevant or not, but that's a separate question 20:29:49 don't put them in the same sentence 20:31:51 you can mention "you can't pull this off in a tournament", but that's a big deal that's normally obvious, you can normally never pull off these sorts of things in a tournament 20:32:11 you want to challenge that assumption, but you have to write that in a clear positive sentence at first, not in this long mess 20:32:29 not together with the Tournament rules 20:34:12 "However, our only changes are to the sideboard: our sixty maindeck cards are exactly the same." wow 20:34:33 last I've heard of this project, I think that wasn't yet the case. you had a few customizations in the main deck 20:36:07 ARGH I'm stuck in stack mode, with too many things I start and can't finish anything 20:36:17 back 20:36:19 now I'm stuck reading this interesting M:tG document 20:36:40 "The core of Omni-Tell" this heading section is nice well written 20:36:53 the "About Omni-Tell" heading section too 20:38:07 wow 20:38:47 "The maindeck has no way to generate mana except via using its lands, and needs three mana [...] This requires a minimum of two lands" 20:39:18 this is absolutely true and the next part explains it, but totally alien for me, because in formats other than legacy and vintage, lands that produce two mana early just aren't a thing 20:39:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:39:32 there are storage lands, but you won't use them early in a practical deck 20:39:54 "a double-colourless source like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors" clears it up right away though 20:39:59 yes 20:40:16 lands that produce {2} mostly only show up in Legacy combo decks 20:40:35 unless you are aiming for such a double-take, you might want to mention double lands before that sentence 20:40:37 that and the urzatron but it's a special case 20:40:54 sure, but I'm thinking of early turns 20:41:07 urzatron and storage lands are fine, but if you only have lands, you won't pull that off early 20:41:20 and that sentence seems to imply that this is in the early turns 20:41:53 and you won't have early Llanowar Elves or Arbor Elves or any of that stuff I use 20:42:22 nor one of the few one mana cost artifacts that give a third mana in second turn 20:42:28 the Modern players out there are probably doing a double-take upon seeing a basic Island :-) 20:42:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:42:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:44:17 I didn't, I play basic lands, and I think there are some standard formats with no lands with Island or Plains etc type other than those, but some lands or spells that search for a basic land type (or search for a basic land), in which case people include just a few in their deck 20:44:28 or doesn't standard sometimes work like that? 20:44:44 effects that search for basics specifically are rare 20:44:54 at least in tournaments 20:44:55 effects that search for basic land types are common but there are plenty of good nonbasic lands which have the types 20:45:12 right, "search for a Forest" or "search for a Plains" 20:45:34 there are a few good ones, but are they reprinted often enough to always be in the standard? 20:45:34 * ais523 finds a Temple Garden 20:45:53 in Standard you often have to look for basics 20:46:03 but the last time there were good land searching effects, there were good-enough dual lands too 20:46:10 there are only like six nonbasic cycles like that I think, not counting the Limited ones which will never be reprinted, and a few are bad for tournaments 20:46:27 oh, so there aren't always good land searching effects? 20:46:46 but it was a bit of a mess, because there were lots of three-color cards (with an ally+two enemy pairs among the three colors), but the basic-land-type lands were ally-colored 20:47:00 good enough for a tournament that is? 20:47:11 or perhaps no good ones if you don't play green? 20:47:33 this may have been intended to make them hard to use together, but what actually happened is that people ended up playing four colors because it worked better than three, so the top decks ended up largely identical, just playing all the best cards in four colors 20:47:46 I don't think land /searching/ is at all common in Standard at the moment 20:47:59 most of the cards that get land out of your deck just look at the top few cards 20:48:15 I guess that's technically a search 20:49:27 wow 20:49:33 I see 20:49:47 I'm just not familiar with standard or modern enough, so I never noticed that 20:50:00 I know there used to be good land searchers in some formats 20:50:25 and I thought there'd be at least slightly less broken land searchers later 20:50:25 `card-by-name Rampant Growth 20:50:26 Rampant Growth \ 1G \ Sorcery \ Search your library for a basic land card and put that card onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ MI-C, TE-C, 6E-C, 7E-C, 8ED-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, M12-C, MM2-C, C15-C, C16-C, DDS-C 20:50:30 I guess that's a stupid assumption 20:50:38 Rampant Growth is currently considered too good for Standard 20:50:40 yes, that's why I said non-green deck 20:50:51 that one is good, and there's some weaker ones 20:50:53 even though it's allowed a power level boost for being green 20:51:17 `card-by-name Terramorphic Expanse 20:51:18 Terramorphic Expanse \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Terramorphic Expanse: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ TSP-C, 10E-C, M10-C, HOP-C, ARC-C, M11-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MMA-C, C13-C, C14-C, C15-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDE-C, DDH-C, DDN-C, H09-C 20:51:28 while that one is too bad for tournament? 20:51:29 `card-by-name Evolving Wilds 20:51:30 Evolving Wilds \ Land \ {T}, Sacrifice Evolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library. \ ROE-C, CMD-C, DKA-C, M13-C, C13-C, M15-C, C14-C, DTK-C, MM2-C, ORI-C, BFZ-C, C15-C, CN2-C, C16-C, AKH-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDH-C, DDK-C, DDN-C, DDO-C, DDP-C 20:51:31 because they keep reprinting that 20:51:42 yeah 20:51:44 wow, I knew Evolving Wilds had been ridiculously reprinted 20:51:52 not Terramorphic too, though 20:52:09 they're used occasionally when the alternatives are really bad 20:52:15 yeah, both 20:52:16 but they're not considered good cards 20:52:36 hmm, what are the most recent cards in the bot? 20:52:40 wait, what's the difference between those two? 20:52:43 no 20:52:45 there isn't one 20:53:01 why are their current oracle text (not in the bot) different? 20:54:02 huh, that is bizarre 20:54:26 MaGo! why did you ever leave? 20:54:27 one has a full stop where the other has a comma, with grammar adjusted to fit 20:54:36 who's the head rules manager now? I'm cursing them 20:54:51 they generally look for this sort of thing 20:55:07 Eli Shiffrin 20:55:13 (I think I've spelled that correctly?) 20:55:16 it was Matt Tabak for ages 20:55:27 yeah, them 20:55:40 luckily they're doing good job in the background so most of the time I don't have to think of their names 20:56:47 sorry, end tangent 20:57:04 so land searching, Terramorphic is not good enough for tournament? 20:57:19 I'd expect it isn't good enough 20:58:30 (in the kitchen table, it's good enough only for a very few decks, and even then it's not a very good card, just an acceptable one.) 20:58:38 it's good enough for most decks if it's in your opening hand, but it's too slow if you draw it later in the game 20:58:49 err, tapped lands generally are, I mean 20:58:54 right 20:59:08 Terramorphic in particular has the additional problem that you often don't know what color you'll be missing when you draw it early 21:01:41 I play with Kodama's Reach in a big ramp and it's quite good, but only if I already have four or more green one-mana accelerators in the deck so you can almost always cast it in turn 2, and I really want a ramp, and this strategy only works in a close to mono-green deck. 21:01:49 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55793&oldid=55783 * Chris Pressey * (+376) /* Undefined behavior */ 21:02:13 green has a lot of good one-mana accelerators, both for kitchen table and for tournament 21:02:22 I don't have the tournament versions of course 21:02:56 `card-by-name Veteran Explorer 21:02:57 Veteran Explorer \ G \ Creature -- Human Soldier Scout \ 1/1 \ When Veteran Explorer dies, each player may search his or her library for up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched his or her library this way shuffles it. \ WL-U, CMD-U, C16-U 21:03:10 this is apparently the only one-mana accelerator that's good enough for Legacy 21:03:36 unless you count Lotus Petal 21:03:39 but that costs zero 21:03:57 …I assume Sol Ring is banned? otherwise I can't see why people wouldn't use it 21:04:37 but Llawnowar Elves, Arbor Elves, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, are cheap cards I have, and the first two are really good 21:04:44 oh yeah, Sol Ring is reprinted cheap too now 21:04:46 I forgot about that 21:05:46 there's Springleaf Drum but it's limited, it only works second turn if you can play a one-mana creature, any why would you play a one-mana creature that doesn't produce mana in turn 2 in a ramp deck? 21:06:05 so that's too slow 21:06:29 `card-by-name Abundant Growth 21:06:29 Abundant Growth \ G \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant land \ When Abundant Growth enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted land has "{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool." \ AVR-C, EMA-C 21:06:48 apparently this is the new improved version, because the old ones were good only in some decks, and not really for early 21:06:54 you almost always wanted the elves instead 21:07:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:07:59 nah, that isn't ramp 21:08:01 it's just fixing 21:08:31 oh, right 21:08:35 sorry 21:11:31 anyway, I'm not 100% sure I've written about Omnitell correctly because I've never played it, but I have watched videos of other people playing it 21:11:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:14:12 so there's the 3 or more variants of Llawnowar Elves, then Arbor Elves that I like but it only works for me because I do play lots of Forests in those decks, it won't work in tournament; then the Birds of Paradise which I think was tournament card but now rotated from standard; and off-color ones like Elves of Deep Shadow, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Noble H 21:14:12 ierarch, of which at least the last was used in tournaments I think 21:14:32 which are green mana producers for playing in turn 1 and producing mana in turn 2 21:14:40 and every other turn 21:15:33 Arbor Elves is frequently played in Standard when it's legal 21:15:44 ok 21:15:48 I think it's played in Modern, too, but only in Elf tribal decks 21:15:51 how about the Llanowar Elves variants? 21:16:02 those are played too; Arbor Elf is slightly better though 21:16:09 they're good for me, because they're fast and versatile, go in many different decks that have green 21:16:27 unless you have lots of green-producing non-Forests 21:17:04 why is Arbor Elves good in Standard? oh right, you said they still have dual lands with land types 21:17:55 I mean, I play at least 12 basic lands among at least 22 lands in almost all constructed decks, but that's not what a trournament player would do 21:18:15 and even in the kitchen table, I have played against many-colored decks with almost no basic lands 21:19:02 land hate is really bad at the moment, and has been for ages 21:19:28 so there's basically no reason to play basics if you have an alternative 21:19:42 I guess I do this because all the dual land card that often etb untapped are expensive, so I haven't bought most of them 21:19:42 they're trying to give the dual lands drawbacks instead but they're never large enough 21:20:03 there are a few affordable ones now though, so I will buy when I return to M:tG, because they're versatile 21:20:14 they're still expensive, but they're versatile, go in many decks, so I'll probably buy some 21:20:38 since I'm not limited to standard 21:21:20 iirc they recently printed one that etb untapped in multiplayer games, that seems almost like cheating 21:21:42 or will print them 21:21:57 `card-by-name Crumble to Dust 21:21:58 Crumble to Dust \ 3R \ Sorcery \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ Exile target nonbasic land. Search its controller's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with the same name as that land and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library. \ BFZ-U 21:22:04 in Battlebond 21:22:15 that's the only good anti-land card that's been Standard-legal any time recently, and I think it's rotated out 21:22:24 also it's not good enough to play except against decks that rely on a single powerful land 21:23:07 which means that decks that are just playing nonbasic lands for fixing have nothing to worry about, the opponent doesn't have any viable ways to take advantage of that 21:23:14 Bountiful Promenade etc 21:23:18 sounds too good to be true 21:23:25 are they trying to break all non-trournament formats with that? 21:23:25 well, yes 21:23:27 seriously 21:23:27 it isn't the first though 21:23:31 `card-by-name Command Tower 21:23:31 Command Tower \ Land \ {T}: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color in your commander's color identity. \ CMD-C, C13-C, C15-C, C16-C, CMA-C, C17-C 21:24:14 ok, but this is a full cycle of five so you'll have 8 in wedge 3 colored decks 21:24:21 crazy 21:24:31 at least the ones they print for Modern have some moderation 21:24:31 command tower is basically a gold land with no drawback if you're playing Commander 21:24:40 as mana outside the color identity isn't useful anyway 21:24:49 I'm not playing commander, but I am often playing multiplayer with four players 21:24:59 right 21:25:07 and it can happen only in the very late game that there are only two players in play and the game hasn't ended 21:25:10 "this land is broken in format X" is still broken, though 21:25:13 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55794&oldid=55793 * Chris Pressey * (+932) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ 21:25:18 at that point I don't care if my eighth land etb tapped 21:25:22 `card-by-name City of Ass 21:25:22 City of Ass \ Land \ City of Ass comes into play tapped. \ {T}: Add one and one-half mana of any one color to your mana pool. \ UNH-R 21:25:28 also completely broken :-( 21:25:39 they don't have that sort of broken dual land for Modern or any recent Standard, right? 21:25:42 even back when it made you mana burn for a half, it was broken 21:25:48 even the Ravnica duals aren't that good 21:26:20 most broken lands in Modern are the Khans fetchlands 21:27:27 yes, City of Ass is broken too, but... at least that has a silver border, and mentions half mana which you normally can only play with the strange un-rule that you can choose half numbers every time you have to choose a number, and that rule breaks the format even with only ordinary modern cards, eg. you can distribute half of deathtouch damage to 21:27:27 multiple blocked creatures 21:27:47 huh, I'm trying to remember a name of one of the cards in the cycle, and I keep remembering Zendikar fetchlands instead 21:28:00 so even without any cards, the half numbers un-rules are brokenm 21:28:49 and have been in every version of the rules I can remember, because all the versions of the combat damage rule had some exception at least for deathtouch, even if nothing else 21:29:51 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55795&oldid=55794 * Ais523 * (+487) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ computability 21:30:03 how big a print will Battlebond have? it's not standard legal 21:30:21 until people stop buying it, I think 21:30:24 I wonder if those rares will become cheap 21:30:33 but they'll only print a fairly small quantity to begin with 21:30:36 so it depends on how successful it is 21:30:45 on the market that is 21:30:57 most rare lands aren't, but this seems a special interest one 21:31:12 most good lands are expensive, which makes sense 21:31:58 as in, I build mostly from cheap cards, and want to buy more cheap cards, 21:32:09 * ais523 eventually gives up and looks them up 21:32:14 `card-by-name bloodstained mire 21:32:15 Bloodstained Mire \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Bloodstained Mire: Search your library for a Swamp or Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. \ ONS-R, KTK-R, EXP-M 21:32:17 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:32:25 but I might buy some medium price dual lands or similar if they seem so versatile I can put them in many decks 21:32:31 usually I just use cheap lands for that too 21:32:47 fetchland 21:32:47 ok 21:32:56 yes, that is good 21:33:19 in formats with decent lands with nonbasic types that is 21:33:30 s/nonbasic types/basic types/ 21:33:48 it's good even if you're fetching basics 21:33:53 yeah 21:34:03 in fact, in Legacy, they're sometimes played even in monocolor decks 21:34:09 for the deck thinning + free shuffle 21:34:25 (this is at least partly because most Legacy decks don't care about their opponent's life total) 21:34:44 when you're trying to win quickly, winning from 12 and from 20 are approximately equally easy 21:34:50 unless you're playing Burn 21:35:00 yeah, that's what Terramorphic is good for too, and some more expensive (2 or 3 mana) green stuff, but it's only like one or two decks where I need the free shuffle 21:35:09 a tournament deck needs that more 21:35:13 and yes, the deck thinning is useful too 21:35:31 with Terramorphic it's not free, it effectively costs {1} :-D 21:35:37 yes 21:35:43 and that's too much for a shuffle even if you aren't paying a card for it 21:35:44 the green spells cost mana too 21:36:10 one or two or three mana up front, and you get back zero or one immediately 21:36:17 for searching a land 21:36:24 sometimes still good enough 21:36:28 but not all decks 21:37:10 well, you're basically paying for three things: color fixing, ramp, and the shuffle 21:37:17 cards that give only a subset of those effects have to be cheaper 21:37:40 so, for example, color fix + ramp + shuffle (all three) is Rampant Growth, which costs two mana and a card 21:37:47 `card-by-name Rupture Spire 21:37:48 Rupture Spire \ Land \ Rupture Spire enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Rupture Spire enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you pay {1}. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ CON-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, C16-C, PCA-C, CMA-C, DDH-C, H09-C 21:38:01 a perfect color fix through perfect turns costs an effective {2} 21:38:05 *through future turns 21:38:19 whereas a "pick a color now" and a shuffle costs an effective {1}, that's Terramorphic 21:38:41 yeah 21:41:33 does Modern have something like Krosan Wayfarer, which is "put a land card from your hand into play, right now" effect for {G} on a sorcery? 21:41:50 it did for a while 21:41:52 `card-by-name Summer Bloom 21:41:53 Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U 21:41:59 I know they have the same but the land tapped, but that's much weaker 21:42:00 but it ended up getting banned 21:42:10 I see 21:42:20 there are probably weaker versions of the same effect that are still legal 21:42:22 because that helps with the fixing 21:42:33 `card-by-name Elvish Pioneer 21:42:34 Elvish Pioneer \ G \ Creature -- Elf Druid \ 1/1 \ When Elvish Pioneer enters the battlefield, you may put a basic land card from your hand onto the battlefield tapped. \ ONS-C, 8ED-C 21:42:49 that's much weaker 21:42:51 that isn't broken 21:43:01 and it's in modern 21:43:08 oh, 8th is in Modern 21:43:11 yes 21:43:16 but that isn't such a broken effect 21:43:18 Summer Bloom was abused with nonbasics though 21:43:18 it says "tapped" 21:43:29 Krosan Wayfarer doesn't say "tapped" 21:43:34 oddly, the "tapped" on Elvish Pioneer makes it stronger rather than weaker in that deck 21:43:35 `card-by-name Krosan Wayfarer 21:43:36 Krosan Wayfarer \ G \ Creature -- Human Druid \ 1/1 \ Sacrifice Krosan Wayfarer: You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. \ JUD-C 21:43:42 what? 21:43:48 `card-by-name Amulet of Vigor 21:43:49 Amulet of Vigor \ 1 \ Artifact \ Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it. \ WWK-R 21:43:49 why would I want my land required tapped? 21:44:01 oh... what deck then? 21:44:06 the omnitell? 21:44:11 the thing is that if you get multiple Amulet of Vigor triggers, you can tap the land in between… 21:44:17 ah 21:44:28 the deck was called Amulet Bloom (i.e. Amulet of Vigor and Summer Bloom) 21:44:29 ok, that's wierd 21:44:34 it played them together with lands that bounce themselves 21:44:39 `card-by-name Selesnya Sancturary 21:44:40 No output. 21:44:46 hmm 21:45:00 `card-by-name Dimir Aqueduct 21:45:01 Dimir Aqueduct \ Land \ Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Dimir Aqueduct enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {U}{B} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, C17-U 21:45:17 like that (except green) 21:45:20 oh 21:45:24 `card-by-name Selesnya Sanctuary 21:45:24 Selesnya Sanctuary \ Land \ Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield tapped. \ When Selesnya Sanctuary enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. \ {T}: Add {G}{W} to your mana pool. \ RAV-C, CMD-C, PC2-C, C13-C, MM2-U, C16-U, PCA-C, CMA-C, C17-C, DDG-C 21:45:26 I can't spell 21:46:29 it's still not the same of course, because if I have Krosan Wayfarer, then I sometimes have to play it first turn if I don't have a Llanowar/etc, so I won't have a chance for an Amulet of Vigor yet, so Krosan Wayfarer is still better in eteranl I think 21:46:42 so say you have Amulet of Vigor in play, you can play a Selesnya Sancturary, tap it for {G}{W} before it bounces itself, use that to cast Summer Bloom, then play the Selesnya Sancturary three more times 21:47:00 that gives you six mana on turn 2 (usually), which you can use to play Primeval Titan or some similar finisher 21:47:13 yes, the rav common duals, I play those 21:47:18 those are decent 21:47:39 * ais523 wonders why they can't spell "sanctuary" 21:47:45 and reprinted enough, finally 21:47:56 what? 21:48:00 who can't spell Sanctuary? 21:48:07 me, apparently 21:48:10 I keep adding an extra r 21:48:10 ah 21:48:53 `card-by-name summer bloom 21:48:53 Summer Bloom \ 1G \ Sorcery \ You may play up to three additional lands this turn. \ VI-U, P1-R, 6E-U, S99-R, 9ED-U 21:49:08 wow 21:49:22 ok, Amulet of Vigor is strange 21:49:43 I know the rav dual lands have their uses, but they're usually not that much broken 21:49:53 `card-by-name Primeval Titan 21:49:54 Primeval Titan \ 4GG \ Creature -- Giant \ 6/6 \ Trample \ Whenever Primeval Titan enters the battlefield or attacks, you may search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle your library. \ M11-M, M12-M, MM2-M 21:50:18 the trick is to search out a land that can give it haste :-) 21:50:23 (remember that the Amulet will untap them) 21:50:31 hopefully that means only the Amulet is crazy, not all ten rav common dual lands 21:50:46 the Magic devs think that the rav common duals are too strong 21:50:51 really? 21:50:58 I think they're strong too, but not tournament strong 21:51:01 I think so, not 100% sure on that 21:51:27 you're basically playing {1} to "search out a land" (the land you bounced) 21:51:46 isn't it just the rare duals or the Signets or something that they think are slightly too strong? 21:52:29 "search your library for a basic land card, place it into your hand, shuffle your library, then draw a card" would be the approximate equivalent of that effect if it were a sorcery rather than a land 21:52:38 and that effect surely costs more than {1} 21:52:48 *than {1} and a card 21:52:55 I guess they no longer print other lands that etb tapped and give two mana, they never printed versions that give RR or something, only the dual ones, and only that cycle 21:52:59 so I guess they might think that 21:53:17 but I just thought there just aren't any reasonable versions they could invent other than this one cycle of ten 21:53:58 and they didn't want to print mono-colored ones, because they rarely have non-basic land slots for that sort of luxury that doesn't fix mana, like only once in every two years or so 21:54:26 ais523: hmm 21:54:55 my attempt at designing that: "~ enters the battlefield tapped. If ~ would untap, instead you may pay {1}, if you do untap it. T: add GW to your mana pool." 21:55:11 what? how is that equivalent? why are you even searching for basic lands? 21:55:23 the common rav duals don't do any searching 21:55:27 how is it comparable? 21:55:28 they bounce a land to your hand 21:55:36 yes, but doesn't search for any color 21:55:39 so you're one land up 21:55:42 it's just those two colors 21:55:50 your version fixes to any color 21:55:54 I decided that giving you two specific colors was similar to searching for one 21:56:03 ah 21:56:07 although not identical, they will be of similar strength in three-color decks 21:56:24 I think fixing five colors is stronger than fixing two, and wizards seems to think so too, at least on dual lands 21:56:33 triple lands and five-colored lands always seem weaker 21:56:56 most 5c lands actually released are terrible, though 21:57:01 `card-by-name Mana Confluence 21:57:01 sure 21:57:01 Mana Confluence \ Land \ {T}, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ JOU-R, EXP-M 21:57:07 `card-by-name Cavern of Souls 21:57:07 Cavern of Souls \ Land \ As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell of the chosen type, and that spell can't be countered. \ AVR-R, MM3-M 21:57:13 those are the only two that are commonly played 21:57:29 (although there's a nerfed version of Cavern now which also see play; Cavern is totally bonkers) 21:57:38 no, there's a better one, but deck-specific 21:58:00 there's one that generates any color but it can only be used for creatures, ditto one like that for artifacts 21:58:05 `card-by-name Ancient Ziggurat 21:58:06 Ancient Ziggurat \ Land \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature spell. \ CON-U, H09-U 21:58:08 the former is sometimes played in exclusively-creatures decks 21:58:32 yes, that 21:58:53 being able to generate any color for artifacts isn't all that useful an effect ;-) 21:58:59 works even in decks with only 32 creatures, not 36 21:59:13 only some of them, you need to get mana for activated abilities from somewhere 21:59:31 but yes, I understand the point, it's worse late game if you aren't playing a deck where you want to cast a creature card every turn 21:59:54 yes, very situational 22:00:10 works well in a few decks only 22:00:20 you're right, Cavern of Souls is better in general 22:00:26 one of the strongest decks I ever built wanted to play multiple creatures on most turns 22:00:31 so it'd love Ancient Ziggurat 22:00:32 I've seen that one too 22:00:48 but it was a tribal deck, so Cavern of Souls would have been even better 22:00:50 yes, I have some such decks, and want to build some, and have played against such decks 22:00:54 (obviously it'd just play 4 of both though) 22:01:53 I see 22:03:07 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:05:01 back in your text, "Mountain (the basic land for red)" -- wait, there are M:tG players who don't know that? even beginners? 22:05:48 I doubt it 22:06:00 remove that parenthetical then, I think 22:06:18 it's more focusing on why we pick that card 22:06:20 we want a red basic land 22:06:24 and Mountain happens to be a red basic 22:06:32 I guess we could use Snow-covered Mountain instead? :-D 22:06:32 uh, ok 22:06:37 lol 22:06:48 yeah, you could. but it's not cheap 22:06:55 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 22:07:23 it is compared to most of the cards in that deck :-D 22:07:36 yeah 22:07:43 true 22:07:57 -!- Vorpal has joined. 22:08:29 just seems expensive compared to the plain Mountain I guess 22:09:02 which is annoying because of the rule that you can actually use more than 4 of them 22:09:16 you could, but you'd have to buy them thenm 22:09:42 that was also a rule during Coldsnap (i.e. you can run as many as you like but you have to draft them) 22:09:55 yep 22:10:09 that was the rule in limited 22:11:01 * ais523 is imagining what it would be like if that was the rule in Constructed too 22:11:23 Thy also did that in BfZ, didn't they 22:11:25 extra dumb 22:11:29 people would join Coldsnap drafts just to draft all the snow lands so that they could legally be played 22:11:42 and now they printed a sixth such crazy basic land too, one that you could have more than four of, but you have to buy more than four 22:11:49 and I think there are like two creature too 22:12:04 right 22:12:26 um, isn't that still the rule in constructed? 22:12:39 in Modern that is 22:13:11 Lymia: yes 22:13:15 same price for those 22:13:39 I have snow lands, but that's only because I have bought a Coldsnap theme deck, and you can only get 4 of the 5 colors that way 22:14:01 `card-by-name Wastes 22:14:02 Wastes \ Basic Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ OGW-C 22:14:11 so I have 11 snow swamps and 13 snow islands, which is the annoying number, 13 swamps and 11 islands would be so much better 22:14:27 (one of those is random, they give one random snow land in foil as a bonus card) 22:14:51 (or maybe always a foil snow island? I don't recall. the main deck has only 23 I think.) 22:15:02 to be fair, Wastes is normally only played in Commander (where having basic lands can be important and some decks can't legally run any of the other five) 22:15:46 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:15:50 ais523: right, and some very strange constructed decks. and the two (?) basic creatures are even worse. 22:16:17 you only play the creatures in decks that have like at least 20 of them, but possibly 100 22:16:53 you know, decks with mostly two cards, one basic land and one basic creature 22:17:08 I just checked a database of tournament results, no deck containing Wastes has scored highly enough to be recorded in any tournament in any of the formats it records (Standard, Modern, Legacy) 22:17:11 the archetype from back before the 4 card limit 22:17:23 ais523: right 22:17:59 ais523: but snow lands would actually be used, because they're almost always better than ordinary basics, so you'd play them in any deck instead of basics if you have even one card that cares about them 22:18:08 -!- Vorpal has joined. 22:18:08 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 22:18:08 -!- Vorpal has joined. 22:18:16 oh, it tracks a few other formats too (e.g. Vintage and Pauper) 22:18:33 ais523: I see 22:18:52 ais523: but how many years back does it go? 22:19:00 that database that is 22:19:08 it's not just current standard, right? 22:20:02 since before Wastes was printed 22:20:25 I'm not sure how far before but that doesn't really matter, as it can't have placed well in a tournament before it was printed 22:20:38 ok 22:20:44 right 22:21:11 in terms of the snow-covered lands, they only appear to be good in two decks, one of which is red, one of which is blue/red 22:21:18 so only the island and mountain are played 22:21:51 ais523: sure, the island is the best 22:22:09 but the rest are free 22:22:09 wouldn't the mountain be best on that theory? 22:22:20 um, yes 22:22:32 I assumed the island would be the best because blue has the best cards that care about snow 22:22:36 but maybe not 22:22:49 `card-by-name Skred 22:22:50 Skred \ R \ Instant \ Skred deals damage to target creature equal to the number of snow permanents you control. \ CSP-C 22:22:55 maybe I just don't know the red ones 22:23:01 ah 22:23:05 ok, red is the best 22:23:06 that's the only colored cares-about-snow that's tournament playable 22:23:16 `card-by-name Scrying Sheets 22:23:16 Scrying Sheets \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}{S}, {T}: Look at the top card of your library. If that card is snow, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-R 22:23:30 that's playable if you're running a snow landbase 22:24:43 Viscerid Drone would be decent in limited, but not in constructed 22:26:10 `card-by-name Mouth of Ronom 22:26:11 Mouth of Ronom \ Snow Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {4}{S}, {T}, Sacrifice Mouth of Ronom: Mouth of Ronom deals 4 damage to target creature. ({S} can be paid with one mana from a snow permanent.) \ CSP-U 22:26:29 and there are a few more ones like that that would be good in limited, and give some extra if you have snow mana 22:26:30 that's run in the U/R/S deck because it happens to combo really well with the rest of the deck 22:26:58 but wouldn't be playable just for the card, it's only there because the deck is built around damage-to-creature effects and is running Skred because of that 22:27:44 mind you, there are a few snow hosers, sort of like how there are non-basic-hosers for legacy 22:27:59 so everyone playing snow basic lands wouldn't be stable anyway 22:28:33 err, nonbasic hosers are really common in Legacy 22:28:35 `card-by-name Wasteland 22:28:36 Wasteland \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}, Sacrifice Wasteland: Destroy target nonbasic land. \ TE-U, EXP-M, EMA-R \ \ Wasteland Scorpion \ 2B \ Creature -- Scorpion \ 2/2 \ Deathtouch \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ AKH-C \ \ Wasteland Strangler \ 2B \ Creature -- Eldrazi Processor \ 3/2 \ Devoid (This card has no color.) \ When Wasteland Strangler enters the battlefield, you may put a card an opponent owns from exi 22:28:41 `card-by-name Stifle 22:28:42 Stifle \ U \ Instant \ Counter target activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.) \ SCG-R, CNS-R, MPS_AKH-S 22:28:51 yes 22:28:53 exactly 22:29:08 (admittedly Stifle being a nonbasic hoser is a bit of a special case, as it doesn't do it directly; it destroys lands by countering abilities with a cost of "Sacrifice ~") 22:29:36 snow hosers aren't, there's only like two or three that are any good, plus a few combos but all need cards from those two sets 22:29:45 three 22:29:51 ice ace, alliances, coldsnap ;-) 22:29:56 ok 22:30:02 um what? 22:30:11 alliances doesn't have any cards mentioning snow, does it? 22:30:18 it's in the block, but doesn't have cards 22:30:46 `card-by-name storm elemental 22:30:47 Storm Elemental \ 5U \ Creature -- Elemental \ 3/4 \ Flying \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: Tap target creature with flying. \ {U}, Exile the top card of your library: If the exiled card is a snow land, Storm Elemental gets +1/+1 until end of turn. \ AI-U, ME2-U 22:30:52 so I think it's two 22:31:06 oh wow 22:31:11 I forgot that was in alliances 22:31:12 ok 22:31:18 homelands doesn't have any though 22:31:42 viscerid drone is also from alliances 22:32:31 there's also gargantuan gorilla, and winter's night; the latter might or might not be a snow hoser 22:32:34 `card-by-name winter's night 22:32:34 Winter's Night \ RGW \ World Enchantment \ Whenever a player taps a snow land for mana, that player adds one mana to his or her mana pool of any type that land produced. That land doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step. \ AI-R, ME2-R 22:32:38 four alliances cards mention snow in fact 22:32:41 what a bizarre card 22:33:14 I've even seen two of them in the precon deck, only in the precon they're reprinted with coldsnap symbol and modern frame 22:33:43 the precon reprints were given the set symbol from the original set but a modern frame 22:33:46 apparently I'm familiar with the cards but not with those old expansions and didn't realize that's where those two came froem 22:33:51 I have a dark ritual with a modern frame but an ice age set symbol 22:33:55 ah.. ok 22:34:10 right 22:34:19 alliances exp symbol too 22:34:23 darn, I forgot 22:34:40 it's only two cards and I don't notice their exp symbol when I'm scanning through my cards? ok 22:34:47 or I don't remember two bad cards 22:35:13 oh, I know what it is 22:35:31 Alliances is one of the worse among the old sets, so I think I just don't recognize the mana symbol 22:35:34 the exp symbol 22:36:58 there are just too many exp symbols now, I can't keep them all in my head, and that one is one I never see because it's such a bad old block 22:37:08 [[Undefined behavior]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55796&oldid=35566 * Ais523 * (+1113) expand 22:37:47 [[Turing-completeness]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55797 * Ais523 * (+29) Redirected page to [[Turing-complete]] 22:37:48 I was hoping they'd realize that and start to use either just one exp symbol per block and fewer distinct exp symbols for non-modern/non-standard products, or some systematic symbols for some series, but no 22:38:08 they never did 22:38:17 except perhaps for the core sets for six years 22:38:23 there was a row about the Dominaria expansion symbol 22:38:39 it's in reverse video (on the commons) because Wizards were worried that it looked too much like the Darksteel set symbol 22:38:48 but now people are having problems distinguishing commons from uncommons 22:39:07 and I think a few of these new low power low number of copies intro set products 22:39:26 ack 22:39:30 I don't know 22:40:07 the intro products share an expansion symbol with the most recent standard-legal set 22:40:18 err, at least the Planeswalker decks 22:40:22 they at least added a three-letter code that you can look up now, but there's still a random three-letter code for ever standard-legal expansion that you'd have to remember just like the mana symbol 22:40:22 The symbols are still thematically linked, aren't they? 22:40:26 I'm not sure what expansion symbol the free packs use 22:40:33 Look at Zendikar block's symbols 22:40:49 Lymia: they got simpler over time, then they got more complex again 22:40:59 Lymia: in some blocks they were, but the thematic is different in every block, so that only helps if you actually remember any of the three symbols from that one block 22:41:02 a symbol like Dragon's Maze is surprisingly detailed 22:41:12 Lymia: but good luck with that after blocks 22:41:24 some symbols are easy to remember, like Eldritch Moon 22:41:27 Lymia: even then it only worked for like every second or third blocks at random 22:41:36 but that one's an exception 22:41:40 ais523: some symbols are easy to remember because I see them a lot 22:42:38 ais523: how is the Eldritch Moon symbol special? 22:43:02 you can tell what the set's about just by looking at it 22:43:11 which makes it easy to work out what set it belongs to 22:43:16 if there's any that's easy to remember, those were the core set ones I think 22:43:24 well, yes 22:43:31 plain numbers or roman numbers from fifth to M2015 22:43:33 they're reintroducing core sets (a new one coming out in a few weeks) 22:43:34 but they stopped that 22:43:47 M2019 is using the same symbol scheme as just before they stopped 22:43:51 oh good 22:44:00 yes, that one is good, except for the tiny numbers since M2010 22:44:25 but at least they're really easy to remember 22:44:37 that will be one per year in standard, right? good 22:44:49 well, as long as you remember that M2010 is 11th edition, despite the name 22:44:52 like between M10 and M15 22:44:53 yes 22:45:07 ais523: or the 12th if you count alpha and beta separately 22:45:15 they differ in like two cards technically 22:45:36 there are other sets with similar issues that aren't counted as different sets 22:45:44 I know I never actually see anything older than Revised but still, if you want to number them 22:45:53 well, almost never 22:45:58 there was one set where only half the commons were available in any given pack… 22:46:12 I think I have seen a few "cheap" Unlimited cards 22:46:31 ais523: ok 22:46:42 ais523: so we count Beta as the first core set? 22:46:47 because Alpha is the messed up one? 22:46:51 right 22:46:57 but Alpha is still the most expensive set ever 22:46:59 ok 22:47:01 or, rather, Alpha is an erroneous print of Beta 22:47:04 this is crazy numbering 22:47:13 misprints are normally more valuable than the non-misprinted card… 22:47:21 (due to being rarer) 22:47:32 if Alpha were more printed than Beta, then Beta would be more expensive 22:48:12 so Alpha is no longer a core set, despite that it's the first ever set, and I thoguht the first products were only core sets (reprint only) and expansion sets, from before they even invented compilation sets and casual sets and stuff 22:48:19 no, Alpha is part of Beta 22:48:26 ok 22:48:28 collectively called "Limited Edition" 22:48:36 makes sense 22:48:41 you can tell this because Beta cards have black borders, which at the time indicated that it was the first printing of the card 22:48:58 right, but don't Alpha cards have black borders too? 22:48:59 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:49:03 yes 22:49:15 I mean, Alpha and Beta both contain "first edition" copies of the same card 22:49:19 thus must be the same edition 22:49:47 right 22:49:59 when did they first put reprints in black-bordered expansion sets? 22:50:11 whereas Unlimited has white borders, showing that the cards are reprints 22:50:26 was it before tenth ed? 22:50:34 it's complex, I think before tenth edition they always changed the art 22:50:40 so that the card could be argued to be not technically a reprint? 22:50:44 ok 22:50:55 and wait 22:51:22 oh right 22:51:22 ok 22:51:45 yes, I think that was the rule 22:51:47 but there were definitely reprints in black-bordered sets before tenth, e.g. Birds of Paradise is in the original Ravnica (between 9th and 10th) 22:51:58 ais523: ok 22:52:25 really the whole border color thing became a mess fairly quickly 22:52:28 which is why they got rid of it 22:52:50 yes 22:52:52 good thing 22:53:07 but also good thing they allow more reprints, and new cards in core sets since M10 22:53:18 ok, maybe that's a bad thing now 22:53:24 means too many standard-legal cards 22:53:28 they keep printing more per year 22:53:44 they keep inventing new ways to cheat the quota every two yeras 22:54:11 well, they intended Standard to rotate faster 22:54:15 so the number of new cards keep increasing 22:54:33 they thought that would improve the gameplay (and it'd also reduce the number of cards available) 22:54:34 even without standard, just more new unique cards all the time 22:54:43 but people were unwilling to buy Standard cards if they wouldn't be legal for very long 22:54:53 they deny that, but actually keep increasing the numbers in various sneaky ways 22:55:40 although some of them aren't modern legal, they're almost all eternal legal and casual legal 22:55:48 so it's hard to follow the card pool 22:56:28 there are new cards in casual products, new cards in commander products every year, new cards in core sets, mythic rares mean 15 extra new cards per set since Alara or whatever it was, 22:56:52 I think the addition of mythics actually reduced the set size 22:56:56 I think there will now be four expert expansions printed per year, not two, plus the core sets 22:57:01 or will there be only three plus a core set now? 22:57:04 sets are larger nowadays but it's because they increased the number of uncommons 22:57:45 (each individual rare is more common now than before mythics were added, which greatly reduces the number of rares you need to make the probabilities add to 1) 22:58:00 oh wait, Origins is a core set too, right? that's basically M2016 with a funny name 22:58:10 yes, Origins is a core set 22:58:29 or at least it was in the core set "slot" and had a similar purpose 22:58:29 I like core sets, I was sad when they abolished them, and was afraid of abolishing the block system because that would mean four new sets per year, 22:58:49 will it be three standard-legal expoansions plus a core set now, or four plus a core sets? 22:59:04 the abolishment of core sets demonstrated to me that Magic had a direction different from the one I wanted, but it was a symptom, not a cause 22:59:20 and there's always like two legacy-legal casual expansion per yera now, with new cards: yearly commander and one extra per year that keeps changing 22:59:28 basically my vision of Magic was as a game which rarely had major changes, just kept getting progressively improved 22:59:37 but Wizards see it as a game that relies on frequent shake-ups 22:59:40 ais523: what? didn't you realize that way before they abolished core sets? 22:59:52 well, yes 22:59:58 ok 23:00:11 Without major shakeups, they'll run out of design space, I think 23:00:16 oh, I guess they announced that like a year before Origins or more 23:00:27 the major shakeups use up design space way faster than incremental improvements would 23:00:29 so it's one year earlier than I thought that you're talking about 23:00:30 but ok 23:00:55 I'm the sort of person who'd like to see each set being 90% similar to the one before, with only balance changes 23:01:16 but I doubt that'd make enough money to keep Wizards happy 23:01:17 ais523: yes, and they're very bad for a casual player who has years when he doesn't even look at M:tG 23:01:33 you come back a year later and the whole system has changed, not just one new block and one core set now 23:01:35 every year 23:02:06 with Battle for Zendikar they changed a huge number of things all at once 23:02:07 -!- Kai_Bruneji has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/). 23:02:11 which will make it hard to see which ones worked and which ones didn't 23:02:42 and even when it isn't, they print like twice as many distinct cards a year as they used do, if you care about reprints changing the price and non-tournament-staple cheap cards too and want to look through them to find the common and uncommon gems 23:02:43 it doesn't help that that block was the worst block they've produced in years… 23:03:18 ais523: I see 23:03:54 tenth ed and M2010 both changed a lot of things too at the same time 23:04:38 then more recently they've had a rash of balance issues 23:04:56 BfZ block's main issue was color balance, e.g. green was basically unplayable 23:05:04 such as introducing modern, introducing yearly core sets (instead of one per two year) with new cards, a whole rewrite of the comp rules, a big change in the comp rules respectively 23:05:06 but at least that doesn't ruin Standard 23:05:08 those were two hectice years 23:05:33 and that border thing and more reprints in standard-legal expansions I guess 23:05:46 more recently they've had huge problems trying to prevent single decks or cards being dominant 23:05:59 there have been so many card banned from standard over the past few sets… 23:06:02 wait, when did they start the more reprints in standard-legal sets? was it in zendikar? or later? 23:06:17 it was meant to be when they got rid of core sets 23:06:23 as they had to put the reprints somewhere 23:06:28 ais523: in what formats? 23:06:35 oh, standard 23:06:53 ais523: hmm 23:06:58 I'm trying to remember all the standard bans recently 23:07:08 I thikn it was earlier 23:07:29 maybe not 23:07:30 ok 23:08:20 there are seven cards banned from Standard right now (with people calling for an eighth), and some of the cards that rotated out at the last rotation were banned at the time, too 23:08:54 I think it's actually Coldsnap, one year before Tenth ed, when they decided they can get away with some new way to sneak print more cards every two years if they disguise it well somehow 23:09:00 https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions#2017 23:09:06 later they got so good in it that they're doing it every year, then more 23:10:00 nine total Standard bans since the start of 2017 23:10:14 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:10:37 first M2010 and yearly core sets with new cards to make up for the supposed "reduced set sizes" that they announced at Time Spiral (right after the huge but Tenth Ed which is reprint-only but standard-legal), then with casual expansions with eternal-legal cards, and often standard-legal extra stuff 23:10:56 but Coldsnap was the first 23:11:17 that's when they realized they can do this without being too obvious that it's something they repeat every year 23:11:39 the most recent Standard ban before that was two cards in 2011, before that was eight in 2005 (five of which were a cycle) and one in 2004, before that was eight in 1999 and two in 1998 23:11:46 now we have yearly Commander sets for eternal too 23:11:56 so the latest screwup balancing Standard is the worst since 1999… 23:12:01 and lots of reprints of old casual cards to make them cheaper 23:12:15 sometimes reprints of good eternal cards like Sol Ring too 23:12:58 ais523: the cycle is the artifact lands in Mirrodin? 23:13:04 yes 23:13:37 and Skullclamp or that blade or sword thingy that often freely sacrifices itself or whatever 23:13:42 yeah, mirrodin was strange 23:13:53 what was in 2011? 23:14:44 but yes, they had very few standard bans, often none for years, and also very few bans in limited or block-constructed 23:15:00 obviously they still avoid bans in limited, because they suck 23:15:17 (they errata instead) 23:15:23 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:15:25 2011 was the dominance of Caw-Blade 23:15:37 the card banned from it were Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic 23:16:31 Walking Atlas was an errata that was immediate, before the card was even released. that was very rare, and still is. at least that one isn't for power level. 23:17:00 they didn't even have oracle texts the last time they'd need that, when they misprinted that mana symbol in some card back in some very old expansion 23:17:24 `card-by-name Marath 23:17:25 Marath, Will of the Wild \ RGW \ Legendary Creature -- Elemental Beast \ 0/0 \ Marath, Will of the Wild enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters on it equal to the amount of mana spent to cast it. \ {X}, Remove X +1/+1 counters from Marath: Choose one -- \ Put X +1/+1 counters on target creature. X can't be 0. \ Marath deals X damage to target creature or player. X can't be 0. \ Create an X/X green Elemental creature token. X can't be 0 23:17:40 the "X can't be 0" was on-release errata 23:18:07 the third mode turned out to be pretty broken without that :-) 23:18:42 ais523: ah yes, Jace. he's the Twilight Sparkle of M:tG, gains a new major power every year. M:tG now has nine Jaces, highest count planeswalker ever, and a surprisingly high number of them were tournament-relevant 23:18:46 like, three or more 23:19:11 and like two so broken they dominate a format or is banned 23:19:47 there are two Jaces so broken they dominated a format, but I think only JtMS got banned 23:19:54 `card-by-name Jace, Vryn's Prodigy 23:19:55 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy \ 1U \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 0/2 \ {T}: Draw a card, then discard a card. If there are five or more cards in your graveyard, exile Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, then return him to the battlefield transformed under his owner's control. \ [Front face. Transforms into Jace, Telepath Unbound.] \ ORI-M 23:20:10 that one dominated a format too, but it never got banned AFAIR 23:20:17 there are also nine Chandras, but they don't get that powerful in tournaments, only in the story 23:20:34 it was a running joke how many bad Chandras got printed 23:20:37 ais523: yeah 23:20:40 although Wizards managed to print a tournament-viable one eventually 23:22:17 why is the bullet for choose one showing as a half-width katakana ki in IRC 23:22:27 oh 23:22:32 and there are seven Ajani, 6 Garruk, 6 Gideon, 7 Liliana, 8 Nissa (wtf, I didn't follow the story, when did she do that?), 23:22:46 Probably because I have znc configured to parse as sjis if utf-8 fails 23:22:53 Why isn't HackEso sending UTF-8 23:23:13 but I distinctly remember when some people played with 8 Jaces (4 each of two different ones) in Standard 23:23:26 and that was early, in like the first three jaces 23:23:46 what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana 23:23:53 does it have hiragana too, or is that only fullwidth? 23:24:14 wob_jonas: that doesn't really count, though, Jace Beleren was only played to legend-rule the opponent's JtMS 23:24:27 wait 23:24:30 ais523: ask oren or zzo38 about that, I don't know anything about shift-jis 23:24:33 Why do that with the original jace rather than new jace 23:24:35 or, well 23:24:40 jace, the wallet sculpter 23:24:43 ais523: ah 23:24:47 I see 23:24:51 that's broken 23:24:51 Was it a budget deck thing? 23:24:54 like, really broken 23:25:01 Lymia: you were playing 8 Jaces, your own JtMS, and JB in order to legend-rule the opponent's 23:25:06 ah 23:25:21 you wouldn't want to legend-rule the opponent's with a JtMS if you could help it as you'd want to play the JtMS afterwards 23:25:32 but the legend rule has changed now (and the planeswalker equivalent of it, too) 23:25:41 so that sort of trick doesn't work any more 23:25:51 I mean, playing wastelands to destroy any of 10 to 20 dual lands relevant in standard, that's fair game. but playing to kill one card? crazy 23:26:07 that's how centralised the metagame was 23:26:14 I mean 23:26:18 MTG has a sideboard 23:26:20 and explains why JtMS and Stoneforge Mystic ended up getting banned 23:26:28 playing to kill any artifact, or any red card, or any green card, or any enchantment, or any zero-mana spell, or any one-mana spell, etc, that's also fair 23:26:34 but playing to kill one card is crazy 23:26:44 ok 23:26:58 Was this standard? 23:27:01 Lymia: yes, but this was 8 jaces in main deck 23:27:02 yes 23:27:03 in standard 23:27:16 not all decks perhaps, but some tournament standard decks 23:27:25 it also had 8 other planeswalkers iirc 23:27:33 but that's not as strange as 8 jaces 23:27:38 `card-by-name Creeping Tar Pit 23:27:39 Creeping Tar Pit \ Land \ Creeping Tar Pit enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool. \ {1}{U}{B}: Creeping Tar Pit becomes a 3/2 blue and black Elemental creature until end of turn and can't be blocked this turn. It's still a land. \ WWK-R 23:27:52 ^ genuinely played in Legacy as a JtMS-specific counter 23:28:04 at least it doesn't hurt your deck much if the opponent doesn't play JtMS 23:28:24 I mean, even 8 Llanowars wouldn't look that strange, and these days you could play them (I only have one of the other ones) 23:28:32 it's just 8 Jaces that looks strange for some reason 23:28:40 llanowar elf, fyndhorn elf, elvish mystic 23:28:43 Original Jace's still playable, isn't it? 23:28:55 Lymia: right, Jace Beleren isn't a terrible card 23:29:03 ais523: yes, now there are three 23:29:13 all in modern 23:29:44 I only have lots of Llanowar Elves and 1 Fyndhorn so far 23:29:46 also boreal druid, avacyn's pilgrim, noble hierarch 23:29:56 ais523: and Arbor Elves, yes 23:30:00 (variants that produce other types of mana) 23:30:11 elves of deep shadow, too, but that has a drawback 23:30:37 and deathrite shaman (not modern-legal but only because it was banned) 23:30:41 My first deck involved 4x Plated Geopeed/4x Steppe Lynx/4x Adventuring Gear 23:30:42 so i guess 23:30:44 similar idea? 23:30:45 :P 23:32:08 wow, we've got rather offtopic from discussing Omni-Tell 23:33:07 I play Arbor elf a lot because it comes up for three reasons: (1) Imperiosaur, (2) I enchant land with auras, especially Elvish Guidance in the elf deck, and get double the lots of mana and go off, great finisher while still a Llanowar effectively, (3) If I can untap the Arbor Elves, I get an extra mana for free, that used to exist but only on card 23:33:07 s in 3 mana and up, Arbor Elves is the first at 1 mana and otherwise good card. 23:33:17 ais523: I know. that's deliberate. 23:33:34 I can read Omni-Tell later, when we're not having a conversation, and I'm too tired to do anything useful 23:33:50 I didn't really mean off-topic 23:33:53 more that it had drifted a long way 23:34:00 yeah 23:34:23 it's just that you're always active on IRC when I'm not there or busy 23:34:36 so I'm grabbing the opportunity 23:35:07 timezone problem or something, despite that you live in Europe 23:35:20 I live in Europe but mostly sleep on a US schedule 23:35:23 I usually sleep earlier than this weekdays, for work 23:35:34 I should be sleeping now actually, but meh 23:35:48 and you are only in on weekdays evening US time, and even from that only late 23:36:18 well, IRC tends to distract me from work (as it is at the moment!) 23:36:22 yeah 23:36:26 I was doing an OS update yesterday 23:36:45 which was pretty useful as it gave me a lot of esoinspiration (I can't do much but talk during those) 23:36:47 it didn't go too well, though 23:36:53 lots of things are still broken 23:37:46 Lymia: you started at Zendikar? I see 23:38:01 face is the place *nod nod* 23:38:02 I hear that was a surprisingly good set, so that makes sense 23:38:13 might have brought in new players 23:39:59 I started at Coldsnap (actually played the first time at Dissension, which is one set before, but bought the first card of my own when Coldsnap was out) 23:40:08 good sets tend to bring in new players for the set afte 23:40:09 *after 23:40:19 ais523: yes, that must have been it for me 23:40:29 Avacyn Restored is considered a fairly bad set but was very popular 23:40:35 the ravnica BLOCK was good, not just Dissension specifically 23:40:50 huh, I /finished/ at Coldsnap, pretty much 23:40:59 I abandoned Magic during Lorwyn as I wasn't enjoying it at all 23:42:50 ais523: I paused or stopped buying cards shortly before New Phyrexia (not because of that set, just at) 23:43:12 because we could no longer play regularly, and always play so rarely that it's not worth my time to figure out which cards to buy 23:43:28 but I'm considering to get back at some point, casually, and buy more cards 23:43:31 [[GetWhen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55798&oldid=55791 * HereToAnnoy * (-17) more typos/clarification 23:43:52 as in, a casual way, not for tournaments 23:44:52 it didn't help that New Phyrexia was when I was still in university, so relatively poor when it comes to my own money, with my parents and the state supporting my education but I don't want to spend *that* on M:tG 23:45:11 [[Talk:Equipage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55799 * Ais523 * (+614) /* Minimized purely concatenative languages */ new section 23:45:38 compared to being not rich but at least having my own money I earn myself from a job, which means I can spend it on objectionable stuff, and M:tG is one of those 23:46:40 I don't want to spend money on M:tG any more 23:46:42 I think it's being mismanagd 23:46:44 \oren\, zzo38: " what halfwidth characters does shift-jis have? ascii is halfwidth, and presumably it has all the katakana" 23:46:57 pinging them because they're the ones on this channel that I think might know this off-hand 23:47:00 hmm, I guess I could just look it up 23:47:57 ais523: I'm good at this sort of stuff, for anything relevant on the west, but I don't know the oriental ones like shift-jis and kanjis and fullwidth graphics characters etc 23:47:58 looks like half-width katakana and a few half-width punctuation marks 23:48:11 also it doesn't have all of ASCII 23:48:16 it's missing backslash and tilde 23:48:25 lol 23:48:29 tilde? 23:48:35 not underscore or caret? 23:48:42 yep, tilde 23:48:48 ... 23:49:11 right, I guess makes sense, some of the ISO-646 replace it too, but only together with at least six others, not alone 23:49:36 caret and underscore and backtick are the ones I thought you can lose alone or in pair without losing any other ascii 23:49:47 oh right, backslash for the yen sign 23:49:59 oddly, it has the C0 control codes (including DEL), but doesn't obey Ecma-35 rules because it uses some of the C1 bytes as the leading byte of a two-byte sequence 23:50:21 I think that appeared even in some early 8-bit no-shift character set 23:51:16 …after thinking about it, Ecma-35 is pretty ridiculous, isn't it? 23:51:21 no wonder terminal encoding is so difficult 23:51:34 yeah, people gave up on that 23:51:41 they only use ascii controls now 23:51:43 better 23:51:58 nah, C1s are commonly used, it's just that they're written with the 7-bit encoding 23:52:12 so that they don't clash with a character encoding that uses the C1s for illict purposese 23:52:37 ESC [ is a 7-bit encoding of CSI, for example, that's really commonly used 23:52:41 also, somehow today there are very few places that filter out \x00 or \x7f, and very few programs that consider it whitespace 23:53:11 interestingly, CSI is in Unicode but terminals don't recognise it when it uses a multibyte encoding 23:53:27 ais523: right 23:53:47 `unidecode › 23:53:49 ​[U+009B ] 23:53:54 ais523: yep 23:54:00 ESC [ always was there 23:54:01 Yeah, it encodes to two bytes, and terminals usually have the VT-100 state machine not do any complex character decoding beforehand? 23:54:06 and was always commonly used 23:54:09 IRC should use that for color codes really :-P 23:54:13 maybe it does? 23:54:18 no 23:54:28 IRC has its own strange mirc color codes system that's horrible 23:54:29 test: ›1mbold›0m 23:54:29 I mean 23:54:52 it could without any incompatibilities 23:55:07 Yeah, but that's not what's done. 23:55:09 really horrible, much more so than the VT-100 state machine, because it's small but has bad rules, can't encode certain combos because it's missing terminators 23:55:19 like, you can't color a digit 23:55:34 stick a zero-width space in there 23:55:35 unless you color the character before that or put some other formatting on the digit too 23:55:40 4 23:55:41 hi 23:55:59 ais523: yeah, that works now that everyone interprets every irc channel as utf-8 too 23:56:10 people started that only like 5 years ago 23:56:16 or 10? 23:56:28 [color]04[digit] works in the IRC scheme 23:56:31 10 years ago it was less common, but still a thing. 23:56:50 At least, Hexchat's implementation 23:57:03 when did the admins of freenode/#ubuntu-hu stop insisting that they're encoded iso-8859-2 and anyone who types utf-8 is warned and then quieted? 23:57:31 I still remember that change, it was great, but not when it was 23:58:46 that was the last channel where anyone pretended that irc doesn't use utf-8 in typical channel messages 23:59:37 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:59:44 it's now a de-facto standard that messages to public are utf-8 by default, althoguh you can still encode any byte string except for three bytes in IRC messages internal between agreeing clients