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00:34:41 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56043&oldid=56029 * Oerjan * (-40) Undo revision 56029 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]) It's certainly not.
00:37:10 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56044&oldid=56036 * Oerjan * (-71) As I said in my previous edit summary, they don't belong here, also this is not a "complete list" section
00:40:07 <imode> Asdf seems to be a bit of a wanker.
00:41:22 <esowiki> [[INTERCALL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56045 * Asdf * (+8062) Created page with "'''INTERCAL''', an abbreviation for ''Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym'', was created in 1972, thus probably making it the first ever esoteric programming lan..."
00:45:27 <oerjan> imode: too similar to "bob"
00:46:05 <imode> yeah like he's just duplicating language pages. :\
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01:37:48 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56046&oldid=43532 * Asdf * (+84) /* 2005 */
01:38:37 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56047&oldid=56046 * Asdf * (-4) /* 2006 */
01:41:47 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56048&oldid=56047 * Asdf * (+87) /* 2000 */
01:42:50 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56049&oldid=56048 * Asdf * (+70) /* 2001 */
01:48:10 <oerjan> those edits look suspiciously close to reasonable.
01:48:35 <oerjan> . o O ( he's trying to throw us off track! )
01:49:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56050&oldid=56041 * Fuzzballcat7 * (-141) /* Introductions */
01:55:38 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56051&oldid=56049 * Oerjan * (+69) Expand descriptions a bit
01:58:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56052&oldid=56050 * Oerjan * (-2) Undo censorship. Seriously, browsers shouldn't do that automatically.
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03:04:56 <imode> did he just try to censor everything? that's hilarious.
03:16:07 <shachaf> That doesn't go far enough.
03:16:15 <shachaf> You ought to censor all criticisms of the wiki
03:26:47 <oerjan> imode: i believe it's a kid browsing through some kind of net nanny - they had big trouble making the introduction in the first place
03:28:41 <oerjan> there were heaps of similar edits caught in the filter because the introduction edit isn't allowed to change anything else on the page
03:30:52 <oerjan> oh that's a specific application
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03:55:23 <imode> so I've basically just invented a new variant of thue that allows line-comments and a modified syntax. should I add this to the wiki with examples? because all of my programs (including the one I wrote today) are good examples of string rewriting.
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04:28:25 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't start by copying the Thue page hth
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05:55:26 <zzo38> Yes, just write it by yourself; link to the Thue page if necessary, there is no need to copy it, though.
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08:19:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56053&oldid=55031 * Asdf * (+68) /* Hello, World! */
08:20:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56054&oldid=56053 * Asdf * (+32) /* Examples */
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08:45:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56055&oldid=56054 * Asdf * (+261) /* Hello, World! */
08:48:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56056&oldid=56055 * Asdf * (+185) /* Hello, World! */
08:49:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56057&oldid=56056 * Asdf * (-32) /* Hello, World! */
08:54:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56058&oldid=56057 * Asdf * (+392) /* Cat */
08:57:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56059&oldid=56058 * Asdf * (+97) /* Move value */
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08:58:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56060&oldid=56059 * Asdf * (+55) /* Cat */
08:59:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56061&oldid=56060 * Asdf * (+79) /* External resources */
09:03:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56062&oldid=56061 * Asdf * (+107) /* Division */
09:03:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56063&oldid=56062 * Asdf * (+2) /* Cubing */
09:06:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56064&oldid=56063 * Asdf * (+5) /* Cubing */
09:07:50 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56065&oldid=56064 * Asdf * (-6) /* Cubing */
09:09:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56066&oldid=56065 * Asdf * (+2) /* Addition */
09:09:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56067&oldid=56066 * Asdf * (+2) /* Subtraction */
09:09:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56068&oldid=56067 * Asdf * (+2) /* Multiplication */
09:09:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56069&oldid=56068 * Asdf * (+2) /* Division */
09:10:06 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56070&oldid=56069 * Asdf * (+2) /* Squaring */
09:10:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56071&oldid=56070 * Asdf * (+2) /* Cubing */
09:14:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56072&oldid=56071 * Asdf * (+8246) /* Examples */
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09:16:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56073&oldid=56072 * Asdf * (-63) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
09:17:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56074&oldid=56073 * Asdf * (+6) /* Self Interpreter */
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09:19:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56075&oldid=56074 * Asdf * (+90) /* Quine */
09:19:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56076&oldid=56075 * Asdf * (+34) /* Self Interpreter */
09:20:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56077&oldid=56076 * Asdf * (+20)
09:21:13 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56078&oldid=56077 * Asdf * (+5) /* Cat */
09:25:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56079&oldid=56078 * Asdf * (+315) /* Examples */
09:27:43 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56080&oldid=56079 * Asdf * (+2247) /* Examples */
09:28:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56081&oldid=56080 * Asdf * (-29) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:28:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56082&oldid=56081 * Asdf * (+2) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:28:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56083&oldid=56082 * Asdf * (-2) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:32:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56084&oldid=56083 * Asdf * (+66) /* External resources */
09:33:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56085&oldid=56084 * Asdf * (+43) /* External resources */
09:36:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56086&oldid=56085 * Asdf * (+0) /* Quine */
09:37:19 <fizzie> ...that "INTERCALL" page is just a copy of the contents of the INTERCAL page, except without the "See also" section.
09:37:21 <esowiki> [[INTERCALL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56087&oldid=56045 * Fizzie * (-8040) Replace content copy with a redirect.
09:38:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56088&oldid=56086 * Asdf * (+3274) /* Quine */
09:40:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56089&oldid=56088 * Asdf * (+4110) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
09:44:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56090&oldid=56089 * Asdf * (+147) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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09:47:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56091&oldid=56090 * Asdf * (+179) /* ROT13 Encipher */
09:47:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56092&oldid=56091 * Asdf * (-4) /* Truth machine */
09:49:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56093&oldid=56092 * Asdf * (+36) /* Quine */
09:49:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56094&oldid=56093 * Asdf * (+43) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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09:52:16 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56095&oldid=56094 * Asdf * (+94) /* Truth machine */
09:55:40 <Taneb> Why is this person making so many edits
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10:02:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56096&oldid=56095 * Asdf * (+18) /* Language overview */
10:09:38 <izabera> maybe you should edit it back
10:11:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56097&oldid=56096 * Asdf * (+48) /* External resources */
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10:29:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56098&oldid=56097 * Asdf * (+66) /* Truth machine */
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11:02:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56099&oldid=56098 * Asdf * (+80) /* External resources */
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11:39:40 <myname> he even removes the link to the truth machine just to put a short description in the section on the article
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11:57:45 <fizzie> I think a lot of that "examples" content (if we want to keep it) needs to go on its own subpage. Four moderately long programs was okay; 18 isn't.
11:58:39 <fizzie> (Also the conversational tone isn't great for an article.)
11:59:16 <fizzie> (And the one-char cat isn't a cat. It's not even a kitten. It's more of a hairball.)
12:04:23 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56100&oldid=56099 * Fizzie * (-60) /* Cat */ Undo one-char cat (revisions 56060, 56078): it doesn't really implement cat, and "four versions (but X added one more)" just looks silly.
12:10:27 <FreeFull> Isn't stdin passthrough just ,[.,]
12:10:37 <FreeFull> Assuming , returns 0 once you're done
12:10:51 <fizzie> The page has variants for the four different EOF conventions.
12:11:16 <fizzie> Well, three different conventions but four different combinations.
12:11:28 <fizzie> (0, -1, "0 or no change", "-1 or no change".)
12:12:00 <fizzie> It's not unambiguous on 8-bit cells.
12:12:06 <FreeFull> "While lots of people didn't find how to subtract, I do found one. It subtracts 7 by 2. " Great grammar
12:12:18 <FreeFull> But we all know 9 bits are the standard ;)
12:17:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56101&oldid=56100 * Asdf * (+966) /* Infinite loop */
12:17:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56102&oldid=56101 * Asdf * (+13) /* Deadfish */
12:17:41 <fizzie> FreeFull: FWIW, I also disagree on the "Squaring" and "Cubing" examples actually doing what they say they do. IMO, squaring 5 would be more like +++++[->+>+<<]>[->[->+<<<+>>]>[-<+>]<<] than +++++[->+++++<].
12:18:12 <FreeFull> fizzie: Yeah, that "squaring" example is just multiplication
12:18:57 <fizzie> I may do a little cleanup later, but there's work stuff now.
12:22:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56103&oldid=56102 * Asdf * (+25789) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
12:22:23 <fizzie> I'm also semi-worried about the CC0 status of all these programs. I don't expect they're all own work, but there's no credit given.
12:22:43 <fizzie> The Deadfish example seems to be just a copy of Deadfish#Brainfuck.
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12:23:21 <fizzie> Okay, that last one is just crazy.
12:23:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56104&oldid=56103 * Asdf * (-25789) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
12:25:09 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56105&oldid=56104 * Asdf * (+3148) /* Quine */
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12:30:10 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56106&oldid=56105 * Asdf * (+579) /* Language overview */
12:30:46 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56107&oldid=56106 * Asdf * (+8) /* Language overview */
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13:16:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56108&oldid=56107 * Asdf * (+1) /* Truth machine */
13:17:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56109&oldid=56108 * Asdf * (+50) /* Truth machine */
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13:26:30 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56110&oldid=56109 * Asdf * (+153) /* Hello, World! */
13:27:03 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56111&oldid=56110 * Asdf * (+0) /* Examples */
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16:12:32 <zzo38> It wasn't completely a copy; there was a "New Syntax" section, too.
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16:59:43 <zzo38> (Still, they shouldn't almost copy it either; just a link and the section of new stuff could do, if they needed that)
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18:48:09 <andrew> basically to make a script in it
18:48:24 <andrew> take a python script and convert every letter and number in it to binary
18:49:28 <andrew> if you want you can do the command "musicate-"
18:50:09 <andrew> "musicate-[converted script here]" plays the script, where every + is an A note and every - is a B note
18:50:46 <andrew> it's just a conversion
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> more interesting: come up with a syntactic transformation like that which maps *any* input file at all to a valid python problem
18:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (this will be almost impossible targeting python tbh, better to try a language with simpler syntax)
18:54:18 <andrew> in this language, there are only < and >
18:54:31 <andrew> imagine an infinite tape
18:54:49 <lambdabot> turns :: ((a0 -> f0 b0) -> s0 -> f0 t0) -> t1 -> terror: Variable not ...
18:55:01 <andrew> >(2) turns each pointer 2 degrees
18:55:47 <andrew> and another new symbol, # decides the size of the tape
18:56:07 <andrew> #(2) makes the tape have 2*2=4 squares
18:56:35 <andrew> < always spawns a pointer at the very lower edge of the tape
18:56:54 <andrew> the very down-left corner to be exact
18:57:08 <andrew> #(0) spawns a pointer at that corner
18:58:22 <andrew> <(1) spawns a pointer 1 diagonal block away from that corner
18:58:43 <andrew> <(2) spawns a pointer 2 blocks diagonally away from that corner, and so on.
18:59:28 <andrew> after that, you end the whole thing off with F and then convert each black square to a 1 and each white one to a 0
19:01:18 <andrew> lets make this an infinite tape
19:01:30 <andrew> < spawns a black pixel, > spawns a white pixel.
19:02:53 <andrew> if you wanna know what all that is, its binary
19:03:26 <andrew> [when i say separator i mean - goes inbetween each wedge]
19:04:03 <andrew> that binary is binary for a script from brainf@@k
19:05:33 <andrew> basically, the hello world script for my esolang goes like this:
19:05:52 <andrew> take the hello world script from brainf@@k, convert it to binary
19:06:16 <andrew> make each 0 a < and each 1 a >
19:06:35 <andrew> also have - between each wedge.
19:07:36 <andrew> this language is called wedgef@@k
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19:22:28 <imode> what do y'all think of DawnOS?
19:22:53 <imode> claims to be an operating system written for a subleq interpreter with hardware access.
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19:25:36 <andrew> also it has a single command
19:26:06 <andrew> but its still turing complete
19:26:38 <imode> yeah, it's an OISC.
19:26:48 <imode> or rather, a piece of software targeting an OISC.
19:26:57 <andrew> one instruction set computer.
19:26:58 <imode> I downloaded it and tried it out. it's a mess.
19:27:15 <andrew> you can't make a non-messy os with 1 command
19:28:04 <andrew> was the wrong command chosen?
19:28:35 <imode> it's less that the underlying architecture is bad, and more the operating system is bad.
19:28:48 <andrew> ahhh, the vista problem
19:29:02 <andrew> the architecture's good, but the os is bad
19:29:51 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56112&oldid=56111 * Ais523 * (-25186) rv all recent edits by [[User:asdf]]; at least some of them are copyright violations, best to err on the safe side and assume that they all are
19:30:30 <andrew> the dude says that there is an imperialistic opression
19:30:44 <imode> yeah he's a terry davis certified nutbag.
19:31:06 <andrew> tying computer proccessors and politics together, gimme a break.
19:31:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 58 revisions on page [[Brainfuck]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
19:33:42 <andrew> it's basically a computer that only has a single command.
19:34:05 <int-e> imode: well, two things bug me about dawn OS. 1) OISC really isn't a sweet spot in the performance space. 2) for something that claims to make people free, there should be source code available. I'd like to confirm that they basically have a standard library and a compiler backend (perhaps llvm? would like to know that...)
19:34:13 <andrew> the guy who made it claims that intel is oppressing people by using inefficient software.
19:34:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Asdf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56113&oldid=55997 * Ais523 * (+681) please stop with the copyright violations
19:34:33 <imode> int-e: lmao, I agree, I was searching for the source in the zip archive he provides, but it simply ain't there.
19:34:46 <imode> he provides source for the simulator, but that's it.
19:35:06 <int-e> (I don't know what's in the disk image, I've never run it)
19:35:45 <andrew> to quote the blog, "He sees chip and OS development as essentially political acts in a market dominated by corporate inefficiency."
19:36:46 <imode> he has an OpenCL-enabled emulator.. I'm curious as to what it does, but if I ran it, I'm worried that it'll frickin' nuke my system. :P
19:37:06 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/freedom.html is his political page
19:37:50 <imode> int-e: https://ptpb.pw/sbFN/c
19:37:51 <int-e> I don't quite see that inefficiency, though perhaps Google's TPU effort (beating GPUs by an order of magnitude for NN evaluation) proves some of that point.
19:37:57 <andrew> SUBtract and branch if Less than or EQual
19:38:05 <imode> here's the source code for his simulator.
19:38:53 <imode> the variable names are the stuff of dreams.
19:39:31 <andrew> he says that corporate people are opressing us by intentionally giving us bad stuff
19:40:08 <andrew> i have added another person to my list of crazy people. check! this guy is nuts
19:40:50 <imode> holy shit if you do a string dump on the disk image he has an entire bitmap font in there.
19:41:16 <imode> int-e: I think I found your source.
19:41:26 <andrew> the variables are the stuff of sleep paralysis delusions.
19:41:38 <imode> it's on the damn disk.
19:42:16 <andrew> this guy is nuts in both departments
19:42:26 <imode> it's incredibly impressive.
19:42:32 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki:Sidebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56114&oldid=30172 * Ais523 * (+45) [[Esolang:Categorization]] is probably important enough to put into the sidebar; people keep missing that it exists and it's a more usable way to find languages than the language list
19:42:41 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: `strings disk0.bin` is what I mean.
19:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway i assume the batshit variable names are due to him being hungarian more than anything else
19:43:26 <imode> I honestly have no idea. he says you need compatible hardware.
19:43:36 <andrew> the guy doesn't know how to make an operating system.
19:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean is it surprising it contains a bitmap font?
19:43:56 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: I expected the bitmap font to be, you know, a bitmap.
19:44:04 <Phantom_Hoover> if you want to display shit in that font it needs to be in an image
19:44:07 <imode> it's literally an ASCII representation of each letter lined up sequentially in memory.
19:44:07 <andrew> raspberry pi does a better job, and it has really little commands
19:44:52 <andrew> the guy is actually worse than most of the companies he claims are opressing us
19:45:18 <andrew> are underagers allowed on here?
19:46:13 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/5CQH/text warning: large text dump, but this is the whole string dump of disk0.bin
19:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> that's probably not even the youngest regular we've had here
19:46:36 <andrew> -Imagine a world, where the education of the students on computers is about showing the shapes of computers, and they call it ,,science''.
19:47:12 <andrew> i'm even more sure this guy is nuts
19:47:47 <imode> I'll say this, it's not something I've done.
19:48:05 <andrew> -Imagine that opening a generic picture file needs more complex algorythms than sending a rocket with persons to land on the moon.
19:48:10 <andrew> this is also what he said.
19:48:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56115&oldid=54321 * Ais523 * (+1029) /* Category proposal: constant string printers */ new section
19:48:23 <imode> well. it kind of is..?
19:48:51 <imode> modern image decoding is certainly more intensive than the stuff the guidance systems ran.
19:49:09 <andrew> yes, but its so for a reason.
19:49:53 <andrew> the many small transistors can only detect 1 or 0.
19:50:27 <andrew> a transistor is like a switch
19:50:32 <imode> that has no relevance to the conversation.
19:50:47 <imode> it makes sense that you're 11.
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19:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> transistors don't just switch instantly on or off, they have useful behaviour on the boundary
19:51:24 <int-e> imode: so now one just needs to unpack that disk image... hmm
19:51:38 <int-e> imode: but good to know. if I ever find time for this, that is.
19:52:07 <imode> int-e: I don't know for sure that this is your source, it's not really "complete" from what I'm seeing.
19:52:35 <imode> but it's something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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19:53:28 <andrew> here is a thing that i think confirms his hungarianity.
19:53:31 <andrew> Today is the anniversary of the hungarian freedom fight of 1848. Dawn Operating System is available from today. It is a honor to release it today: this day symbolizes the fight of people for democracy and independence. Today a new kind of battle starts: a battle to take away the computer industry from mega corporations and bribed public servants, and give it back to the people.
19:53:44 <imode> that and the fact that his variable names are all in hungarian.
19:53:55 <andrew> and his name is geri dawn, apparently.
19:54:34 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56116&oldid=55936 * Ais523 * (+32) MediaWiki treats underscore and space as equivalent in usernames and page titles; tell it which spelling the author of this page prefers
19:54:53 <andrew> the guy is nuts, completely.
19:55:04 <andrew> and i invented a new word.
19:55:56 <andrew> also his spelling is poor, which is a big clue.
19:56:28 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/eszme.png
19:56:40 <andrew> that is the picture on the freedom page.
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19:57:55 <andrew> -Imagine a world, where the education of the students on computers is about showing the shapes of computers, and they call it ,,science''.
19:58:02 <andrew> oops i already showed that.
19:58:02 <ais523> are asdf and Iamcalledbob the same person, do you think? (What's our policy on checkusering things other than spambots?)
19:58:31 <ais523> either way, they're causing a lot of mess cleaning up after them; they might be a troll or might be well-meaning but misguided
19:59:00 <imode> Iamcalledbob was apparently disabled because he left his password on his talk page. Asdf spun up shortly after that.
19:59:29 <imode> so, coincidence be damned, I think they're one of the same.
19:59:43 <ais523> Iamcalledbob created something like five accounts as it was
20:00:18 <ais523> andrew: now you've got me imagining a world where it's possible to determine what a computer does purely from its shape
20:00:32 <andrew> no, that was just the guy rambling.
20:00:41 <andrew> if you don't know, the guy is geri dawn.
20:00:44 <imode> we're picking apart DawnOS.
20:00:53 <andrew> he's a hungarian guy who made dawnOS.
20:01:04 <imode> his emulator is an actual honest to god subleq implementation.
20:01:16 <andrew> he claims that intel and the other corp are opressing people.
20:02:00 <andrew> http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/freedom.html
20:02:06 <andrew> there are his ramblings.
20:02:31 <andrew> and his language contains a single command.
20:02:54 <andrew> subtract and branch if less than or equal.
20:03:52 <ais523> it's one of the better-known OISCs
20:03:54 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq
20:04:36 <andrew> one instruction set computer, if you're fancy.
20:04:39 <imode> I'm trying to work out where the hell he jumps to after he loads the image.
20:05:00 <andrew> we're trying to critique dawnOS
20:05:07 <ais523> I think mov/tta is the most commonly used OISC in practice, but subleq is probably in second place?
20:06:30 <andrew> it should be called single instruction set computer, or SISC.
20:06:41 <int-e> andrew: Hmm, some kernels of truth there. Software complexity, vendor lock-in. A lot of hyperbole though.
20:07:03 <imode> int-e: he's Terry Davis certified! sans the racial stuff... and the CIA stuff... and a lot else...
20:07:10 <ais523> andrew: so a ZISC should be "empty instruction set computer"?
20:07:25 <int-e> andrew: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/22900 is relevant
20:08:03 <andrew> but much of the other stuff is nuts.
20:08:59 <int-e> andrew: (I was going to say that "Imagine a computer, which requires 1 billion transistors to flicker the cursor on the screen." is a misrepresentation... because those billions of transistors can do so much more... but then I remembered that issue :P
20:09:15 <andrew> it is a misrepresentation.
20:09:53 <imode> ais523: by the way, you may appreciate this: https://ptpb.pw/vO8Q/text
20:09:55 <int-e> anyway, I'm not going to take this apart item by item... there's a lot there, and we'd be here all night :P
20:10:38 <imode> it's in my own thue dialect (because I can't stand the original), but it's a ruleset for manipulating an arbitrarily large 2D tape.
20:10:43 <ais523> int-e: I think what's going on there is known as an "abstractoin inversion"
20:10:43 <ais523> * "abstraction inversion"
20:10:46 <ais523> a situation where you're trying to do something which is simple from the low-level point of view but you only have high-level operations to do it with and have to try to synthesize the low-level operations out of that
20:11:13 <int-e> andrew: I like the idea of open hardware. I don't think Dawn is the right way.
20:11:31 <imode> a TTA would be better.
20:11:34 <andrew> linux is the right way.
20:12:04 <imode> transport triggered architecture
20:12:19 <imode> it's an actual practical OISC.
20:12:36 <andrew> this guy is nuts, because he frames things as due to opression.
20:12:37 <imode> with a focus on moving data from one module to another. think of it as extreme microcode.
20:12:41 <ais523> imode: I was going ot say, it looks like an implementation of PaintFuck-without-control-flow in Thue
20:12:47 <ais523> although with different syntax
20:12:54 <imode> ais523: pretty much is! :P
20:13:00 <ais523> also it uses uldr rather than nwse
20:13:05 <imode> it wouldn't be hard to extend with control flow though.
20:13:24 <ais523> indeed, it seems to have a state machine already
20:13:36 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/Bf1F/python here's an interpreter if you wanna run it. it draws a smiley face. :)
20:13:39 <ais523> fwiw, my main issue with Thue is just that you have to write every possible character that something could skip over
20:14:15 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/KUhx/python here's a better version that prettyprints the screen.
20:14:52 <imode> ais523: I'm starting to warm up to that fact, though, because I can just write a compiler that supports wildcards.
20:15:04 * ais523 imagines a wimpmode/sugar for Thue in which you can define a preorder of characters, characters which are adjacent and ordered contradictory to the preorder would be swapped/sorted into order
20:15:16 <andrew> a programmer's reminder of happiness is that code.
20:15:45 <imode> ais523: aha, you're reading my mind. I'm wanting to develop a generic "signals" library for thue-like languages that does something like that.
20:16:37 <imode> andrew: something that translates a source language into a destination language.
20:17:09 <andrew> explain it to me like i'm 5.
20:17:12 <ais523> imode: right, you clearly just need an extra layer "above" Thue that compiles down into Thue and handles all the busywork of writing each wildcard combination
20:17:55 <ais523> andrew: a compiler is a program which takes input (which is a program) and produces output (which is also a program, and doesn't have to be in the same language), where the input and output programs do the same thing
20:18:06 <imode> I've been thinking of writing an interpreter that has arbitrary builtins as well, that after each round of rule application sneaks its own rules in for things like arithmetic, signal passing and such.
20:18:42 <andrew> what are you guys making?
20:21:50 <ais523> compilers tend to be most practical when the output program is in a lower-level language than the input program (often assembler or machine code), although that's not required by the definition
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20:30:41 <imode> it makes me wonder what other kinds of obscure models of computation are out there that can be made potentially useful (and more.. digestable?) by some higher-level tricks.
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20:35:30 <imode> makes me wanna start a site. "esolang rehab: where messed up languages find new life"
20:35:38 <andrew> oiscs are interesting.
20:35:51 <andrew> they can do so much with a single command
20:36:22 <andrew> one command is much more.
20:39:36 <imode> andrew: you should look up Thue.
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20:41:16 <int-e> . o O ( x86 is a zero instruction set architecture that looks at the data pointed to by the instruction pointer and interprets it in a horribly complicated way. )
20:42:26 <imode> it's 10x better. ;)
20:42:51 <andrew> i understood nothing so i'm saying yes.
20:43:33 <andrew> more specifically, 10:=10x better.
20:44:36 <int-e> andrew: it grows old after 10xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
20:45:11 <andrew> the joke was i used thue while describing how much better it was.
20:45:20 <andrew> it's a weak joke, but it's the best i can do
20:49:36 <andrew> have any of you made your own esolangs?
20:50:54 <ais523> andrew: https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ais523
20:51:16 <andrew> it's a brainf@@k variant.
20:51:31 <imode> you made eodermdrome? damn.
20:52:07 <andrew> basically, to make a hello world script in it...
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20:52:25 <andrew> take the brainf@@k hello world script.
20:52:34 <andrew> then convert it to binary.
20:52:55 <andrew> make 0 < [left wedge] and 1 > [right wedge].
20:53:55 <andrew> there is also wedge unary.
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20:54:45 <andrew> more specifically, unary but every second 0 is replaced with this long string of text and every other 0 is a wedge.
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21:04:55 <arseniiv> andrew> are underagers allowed on here? => haha I’ve suspected
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21:07:40 <arseniiv> that's probably not even the youngest regular we've had here> hm could I be so bold and to ask who? Really curious
21:09:50 <arseniiv> when I was 16…18 I was still very immature (on the internets and in general) in many respects
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21:10:53 <arseniiv> andrew> hungarianity => well coined :D I like it
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21:12:05 <arseniiv> (hm what if I am Geri Dawn actually. I was suspected in living in Hungary here once by wob_jonas AFAIR)
21:15:59 <arseniiv> ais523> a world where it's possible to determine what a computer does purely from its shape => why, it’s simple. Tetrahedtal ones cause fires, cuboidal cause eathquakes, octahedral cause floods, dodecahedral cause storms, and icosahedral ones, finally, cause complete cosmic annihilation via a too-near gamma burst. Forgot to add, in that world computers are actually a race of evil jinns.
21:17:56 <arseniiv> oh I’ve completely missed all the fun(
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21:25:03 <ais523> arseniiv: I was thinking more along the lines of an esolang where the shape of the program is the only determinant of what it does
21:25:32 <ais523> ideally something that didn't just have a list of cases for different shapes of edges
21:26:12 <ais523> hmm, actually is "shine a laser into a box full of mirrors" TC if the mirrors can be at arbitrary rational angles and finitely long? it wouldn't surprise me if it were
21:26:21 <ais523> it almost certainly is if you allow curves rather than just line segments
21:26:52 <ais523> this is like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Trajedy, but even simpler in a way…
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21:28:51 <ais523> …actually, if you allow arcs in addition to line segments, I think it's more likely that the resulting language is uncomputable than that it's sub-TC!
21:34:49 <esowiki> [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56117&oldid=52143 * Ais523 * (+30) /* Semantics */ clarify
21:38:29 <ais523> …hmm, I wonder if Conedy is actually a PDA?
21:39:37 <ais523> it's clearly /at least/ a PDA because if all your calculations use the same base you can effectively add and remove digits from the most significant end of the IP
21:39:55 <ais523> the question is as to whether you get more power by mixing bases
21:41:34 <arseniiv> ais523: interesting! Could it be in some many-dimensional space?
21:42:13 <ais523> I was thinking 2D here; 3D is going to be enough to make it TC because you effectively have two stacks rather than one
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22:02:01 <arseniiv> that comment was actually about the general idea of only shape determining what program does
22:05:55 <arseniiv> it could be about homology groups of that shape, hm
22:06:08 <arseniiv> though I don’t know a bit about them
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23:56:29 <imode> do we have a coin flip bot?