←2018-07-02 2018-07-03 2018-07-04→ ↑2018 ↑all
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01:28:18 <esowiki> [[Aj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56311&oldid=56304 * Oerjan * (-296) This section was copied from [[ja]] and doesn't apply here. (There seems to be no unbounded memory.)
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01:29:45 <oerjan> well, no useful memory.
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01:49:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56312&oldid=56310 * A * (+75) /* Turing-completeness */
01:52:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56313&oldid=56312 * A * (+60) /* Turing-completeness */
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02:03:49 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56314&oldid=56302 * A * (+44) /* Survey */
02:04:41 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56315&oldid=56314 * A * (-44) /* Survey */
02:07:34 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56316&oldid=56315 * A * (+43) /* Survey */
02:08:36 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56317&oldid=56316 * A * (+70) /* Survey */
02:14:37 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56318&oldid=56317 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Survey */ UBFIM probably only works because of the NOPs (incidentally, I'm not 100% sure this is TC, anyone have a proof?)
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02:26:26 <imode> error: cannot cast variable type to function type: variable `variable` is not callable.
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02:45:39 <imode> so in my original interpreter, I neglected to set the max replacement to '1'. meaning, my interpreter would simultaneously replace every single matching pattern in the string.
02:46:14 <imode> that made things a little faster with large global rules.
02:46:26 <imode> i.e ones without much context to them.
02:46:38 <imode> but I find it unrequired.
02:50:45 <imode> it's kind of beautiful watching the slow version of my sort-reversesort program. watching the workers stretch themselves over the string and regulate themselves.
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03:19:43 <imode> what're some really small representations of state tables for turing-equivalent automata? TMs are required to specify at least the current state, the read symbol, the target state, the new symbol, and the head movement.
03:20:27 <imode> I'm wondering if there's an alternative representation that's potentially smaller than that, either for TMs or turing-equivalent automata.
03:20:51 <alercah> define "smaller"
03:21:12 <alercah> and "state table"
03:21:35 <imode> alercah: less elements to fully specify. i.e, I could combine the head movement and the written symbol into an 'action', so I'd only have to specify the current state, the read symbol, the next state, and the action.
03:22:25 <imode> and.. you know, a state table. a lookup table for state transitions based on a read symbol.
03:22:41 <alercah> what is the state table for, say, BF?
03:22:45 <alercah> or fractran
03:23:23 <imode> well, just like with TMs, it depends on the machine... but they largely follow instruction-based representations.
03:23:31 <imode> and those can be translated into states pretty trivially.
03:23:45 <imode> one state for each line..
03:24:45 <imode> or, rather, each instruction.
03:25:47 <alercah> it sounds like you are just going to bump into kolmogorov complexity
03:26:42 <imode> I mean... I don't think I am. there have been formulations (i.e the one that BF is based off of) that "compress" the state table into either a series of finite instructions or what I mentioned earlier.
03:31:34 <alercah> well what I mean is the constant-difference between two representations in TMs
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03:31:56 <alercah> once you account for differences in encoding the actual machine (e.g. wasted bits in ASCII characters) by translating everything into the same encoding
03:32:07 <alercah> you run into the conversion constant
03:32:53 <imode> right, I'm not aiming for the "smallest", just alternative versions that aren't like what turing specified.
03:33:11 <imode> I can paraphrase it as I don't like 5-tuples. :P
03:34:43 <alercah> ahh :P
03:34:50 <alercah> a struct with 5 elements, then :P
03:35:33 <alercah> you can't really get away from that sort of thing if you drill down to the foundations
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03:35:44 <alercah> it comes up everywhere
03:35:53 <imode> well you can, you just need to admit to an action set and a reduced tape alphabet.
03:36:14 <alercah> you can fix some things as standard
03:36:25 <alercah> e.g. the states are numbers with 0 as the starting state
03:36:44 <imode> afk
03:37:13 <alercah> the tape starts at all 0s, and is also numbers, and you define the number of states and symbols implicitly rather than explicitly, say
03:37:27 <alercah> (or you make them explicit, but only a number indicating how many rather than a set)
03:37:46 <alercah> then your transition function can just be that, a function
03:37:56 <alercah> (which ends up being a relation if you break it down, but ignore that :P
03:59:11 <HereToAnnoy> Anybody have any stupid instruction ideas for a language? It could be anything.
03:59:39 <alercah> instruction in what sense? like machine instructions?
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04:00:52 <alercah> all values loaded from registers in addressing aren't used from one register, but the XOR of two registers, which rotate every time you try to load a value in a fixed pattern
04:01:21 <alercah> and there aren't convenient instructions like immediates that would let you simplify everything trivially
04:02:03 <HereToAnnoy> Some string of text that when placed on a line, does something.
04:02:29 <HereToAnnoy> Also, it needs a time/day of week that it will work on, and not at any other time.
04:02:58 <HereToAnnoy> I need dumb ideas.
04:03:04 <HereToAnnoy> Ran out of them.
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04:10:28 <HereToAnnoy> also it needs to be computable.
04:21:51 <HereToAnnoy> nvm I'm tired
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04:52:37 <imode> on the one hand, automata are nice and easy constructs for modern computers, because rewriting requires pattern matching. on the other hand, rewriting is such an elegant concept that it's hard to abandon.
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05:22:50 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56319&oldid=56116 * U ndefined * (-2)
05:28:43 <oerjan> that does not work hth
05:31:14 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56320&oldid=56287 * Zzo38 * (+92)
05:35:16 <zzo38> I invented BackTurn in order to try to make a variant of BackFlip that can be reversed just by reversing the direction of program flow and not otherwise altering the program or anything else.
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05:42:51 <oerjan> aha
05:43:09 <zzo38> Have you ever achieved kokushimusou tenhou? (If you have even played mahjong)
05:43:38 <zzo38> (I have never done, nor have I calculated the probability of doing so.)
05:45:13 <oerjan> i have never played mahjong
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06:25:05 <zzo38> If the "R" that ais523 mentioned for avoid arrows in BackFlip in those patterns is only being hit from one way (it looks like it to me), then I think such a limited rebound can also be made from two different rotators in BackTurn like flipping mirrors can be (but this time they are orthogonally rather than diagonally adjacent), so then even with level 0 it should be possible, I think?
06:38:49 <oerjan> in any case you can make one that can be hit from all ways from four one in each direction
06:38:55 <oerjan> *four ones
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06:42:01 <zzo38> OK
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06:45:16 <esowiki> [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56321&oldid=56320 * Zzo38 * (+529)
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07:41:00 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56322 * A * (+1234) Created page with "==How to shorten your Brainfck code== ===Use Compiler flaws=== Indeed, most compilers have compiler flaws. Like the Brainfuck Visualizer, when a '-' appears and the mamory is..."
07:41:20 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56323&oldid=56322 * A * (+8) /* Combine small numbers in your code(<=4) */
07:41:31 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56324&oldid=56323 * A * (+3) /* Use the visualizer */
07:42:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56325&oldid=56324 * A * (+47) /* Use the visualizer */
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07:44:33 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56326&oldid=56325 * A * (+0) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */
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07:49:10 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56327&oldid=56326 * A * (+355) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */
07:51:59 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56328&oldid=56327 * A * (+14) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
07:52:38 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56329&oldid=56328 * A * (-67) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code(To win a golf contest) */
07:53:51 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56330&oldid=56329 * A * (+60) /* =Give up */
08:04:31 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56331&oldid=56330 * A * (+197) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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08:06:18 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56332&oldid=56331 * A * (+5) /* Use Compiler flaws */
08:06:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56333&oldid=56332 * A * (+2) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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08:20:35 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56334&oldid=56333 * A * (+433)
08:20:49 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56335&oldid=56334 * A * (+0) /* The classic multiplication */
08:21:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56336&oldid=56335 * A * (+26) /* The classic multiplication */
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09:16:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56337&oldid=52431 * A * (+61) /* Perfect Powers */
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09:20:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56338&oldid=54213 * A * (+65) /* Input a decimal number */
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09:22:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56339&oldid=56338 * A * (-3) /* Powers */
09:23:16 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56340&oldid=56337 * A * (-61) /* Perfect Powers */
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11:11:39 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56341&oldid=56336 * A * (+36) /* The classic multiplication */
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11:48:50 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56342&oldid=56341 * A * (+137) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
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11:50:47 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56343&oldid=56342 * A * (+61) /* Combine small numbers in your code */
11:57:24 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56344&oldid=56343 * A * (+202) /* The classic multiplication */
11:59:51 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56345&oldid=56344 * A * (+903) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */
12:00:06 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56346&oldid=56345 * A * (+3) /* Understand the Brainfuck Code */
12:02:58 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56347&oldid=56346 * A * (+68) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */
12:05:25 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56348&oldid=56347 * A * (+57) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */
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12:10:50 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56349&oldid=56348 * A * (+387) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */
12:13:33 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56350&oldid=56349 * A * (+191) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
12:14:36 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56351&oldid=56350 * A * (+60)
12:16:11 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56352&oldid=56351 * A * (+65) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
12:17:20 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56353&oldid=56352 * A * (+50) /* The classic multiplication */
12:19:00 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56354&oldid=56353 * A * (+53) /* The classic multiplication */
12:22:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56355&oldid=56354 * A * (+7) /* The classic multiplication */
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13:25:21 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56356&oldid=56355 * A * (+265) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */
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13:32:03 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56357&oldid=56356 * A * (+126) /* Big width loops */
13:32:20 <Taneb> Can anyone think of an actual use for a millibyte unit?
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13:39:34 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56358&oldid=56232 * A * (+125) /* Examples */
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13:43:56 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56359&oldid=56358 * A * (+108) /* Examples */
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14:00:39 <ambrus> I am home free at last! After 18 days in this fucking madhouse, all but the last five days on closed ward, and the first approximately three days (I seriously don't know the exact number) so much sedated that I have total amnesia about it.
14:01:03 <ambrus> Is there a club for #esoteric users who have been in psychiatric closed ward?
14:01:16 <ambrus> Or even a `*list ?
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14:18:21 <ambrus> And you know what the worst part of it was? The beds, on the open ward. I could barely get any sleep on them, even though I had to take sleeping pills and I removed the matress and put it on the ground to decrease the torture a bit.
14:19:17 <ambrus> My current theory is that these beds were designed to allow double-blind testing of sleeping medication on healthy individuals. If the people taking your pills can sleep for eight hours on those beds, then your sleeping medication is effective.
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14:25:19 <wob_jonas> oops, wrong nick again
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15:40:23 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56360&oldid=55245 * Digital Hunter * (+25) /* Stuff */
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16:06:28 <\oren\> shachaf: guess what
16:06:49 <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system
16:07:12 <Taneb> wob_jonas: how are you doing
16:10:29 <\oren\> this software needs an exorcism, not a "bug fix"
16:10:38 <\oren\> where is my court chaplain
16:11:02 <Taneb> \oren\: your court chaplain is in seclusion due to an outbreak of slow fever
16:11:31 <Taneb> What's the code, ooi?
16:13:27 <\oren\> Taneb: it's a really convoluted series of makefiles and jamfiles and shell scripts and perl scripts and python scripts and scripts written in a company-internal language, all calling each other
16:13:50 <\oren\> Taneb: "You are in a maze of twisty little scripts, all different"
16:15:25 <\oren\> oh, and some of the shell scripts are bash and others are csh
16:15:52 <Taneb> Oh dear god
16:18:46 <Taneb> Start rewriting it in zsh and fish and then stop
16:18:56 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, I found some Lua!
16:19:20 <Taneb> Is there any CMake?
16:19:32 <\oren\> so far no
16:19:43 <\oren\> I am looking at the output in tail-f
16:21:47 <\oren\> ok now it's for some reason started building a project that ought to be entirely separate from this one
16:24:59 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ouch. Taneb: tired
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16:31:23 <wob_jonas> \oren\: the company-intetrnal language isn't SAP, right?
16:38:03 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no
16:38:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's techinically open-source. it's called Salmon. nobody uses it but us afaik
16:39:49 <wob_jonas> \oren\: have you found the BANCStar components yet?
16:39:54 <\oren\> https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021
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16:45:11 <zzo38> I have mostly just used a shell script at the top of a C source code file to compile the program; that is suitable if the program is only one file. More complicated programs work differently; compiling Free Hero Mesh does that but also has JavaScript codes, as well as another shell script to call all of them to compile them if needed due to changed.
16:49:02 <zzo38> Not as convoluted as what you mention above, but it does use multiple programming languages. (Anyways, C doesn't have its own build scripting)
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16:52:12 <wob_jonas> have you tried to relabel it as a "domain-specific language for describing building that particular project" instead of an in-house language?
16:53:08 <\oren\> wob_jonas: https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021 <-- does this sound like a man who can take criticism
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17:00:27 <zzo38> You probably should fix that program if it is a mess like that; but, first you have to figure out, what are each of those files doing?
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17:02:03 <wob_jonas> also, have you found the case where the build non-deterministically fails because a later build stage requires a dependency that isn't ready yet because the build system doesn't know there's a dependency?
17:03:25 <wob_jonas> but it nearly always works anyway because the default order happens to be just right for building it, so you only get the error if you modify the right source files
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17:05:12 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well, the standard practice right now is that make clean, in addition to deleting things, "touch" es a certain file to ensure certain things get built
17:06:13 <wob_jonas> not like I'm talking out of experience. I deny having seen that build system at my previous job.
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17:12:07 <wob_jonas> I think there were only two bugs in that job that I committed and was really embarrassed afterwards. One was multiplying two nearly commutating small square matrices in the wrong direction, and one is making an inter-thread queue work as a stack instead so the code started to do the wrong thing only when the load was high enough that there was more
17:12:08 <wob_jonas> than one element in the queue.
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17:48:00 <shachaf> `smlist 470
17:48:01 <HackEso> smlist 470: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
17:48:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HappyFakeBoulder * New user account
17:50:17 <wob_jonas> has http://pbfcomics.com/comics/youll-be-ok/ been listed yet?
17:50:55 <wob_jonas> plus we also got a bunch of abstruse geese while I was away, and a bobadventures
17:51:24 <wob_jonas> yep, Cale pbflisted it
17:51:55 <wob_jonas> that one is really sad given that I did have a (mental) breakdown
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17:52:47 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20180625.html
17:52:48 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found
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17:59:54 <wob_jonas> `aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606
17:59:55 <HackEso> aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606: b_jonas shachaf
18:00:59 <shachaf> I don't think there's a point to listing regularly-updating things.
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18:01:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it doesn't seem regular still
18:01:33 <wob_jonas> I mean
18:01:44 <wob_jonas> it's frequent enough, but not on any regular schedule
18:01:54 <wob_jonas> s/regular sc/predictable sc/
18:02:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56361&oldid=56200 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+342) Added myself to the introduction page.
18:02:19 <shachaf> Why doesn't sed support transducers?
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18:09:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * HappyFakeBoulder * uploaded "[[File:HappyFakeBoulder Picture.png]]"
18:09:56 <esowiki> [[User:HappyFakeBoulder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56363 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+76) Created and added some things.
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18:45:01 <esowiki> [[User:Minin/modern.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56364&oldid=53818 * Minin * (-649) Blanked the page
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23:52:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Prof apex * New user account
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