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02:31:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56599 * A * (+939) Created page with "==Syntax== All of the rules look like this:  <i>cnd.</i><i>num.</i>:cnd.direction num like:  Q1:E<0 If the condition is Q, and the number on the tape is 1, the change the cond..."
02:34:35 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56600&oldid=56599 * A * (+87) /* Computation */
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02:41:43 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56601&oldid=56579 * A * (+57) /* Turth-machine */
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04:07:51 <esowiki> [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56602&oldid=56549 * HereToAnnoy * (+207) Fixed Popular Problems example
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08:19:11 <esowiki> [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56603&oldid=56577 * Igorrto * (+155) Added alternative Hello World
08:19:34 <esowiki> [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56604&oldid=56603 * Igorrto * (+6) /* Hello World(alternative) */
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09:08:26 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56605&oldid=56600 * Oerjan * (+65) Confusing name, and no.
09:12:10 <oerjan> if he'd had states and symbols reversed, it would be more troublesome because of ais523's proof.
09:14:16 <shachaf> but it has "turing" and "machine" right in the name
09:16:39 <shachaf> my new esolang is a turing machine with any number of states but only one symbol, is it tc twh
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09:34:54 <Taneb> shachaf: it is equivalent to some turing machines so it's totally tc hth
09:38:04 <shachaf> also the symbol is an unholy pentagram that summons a demon to do your bidding
09:38:09 <shachaf> wait, are pentagrams good luck or bad luck
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09:38:43 <Taneb> shachaf: have you tried #esoteric on DAL.net?
09:39:05 <shachaf> `welcome
09:39:06 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
09:39:44 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you like Day convolution?
09:40:06 <Taneb> I don't know it very well
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09:43:05 <shachaf> how about regular convolution
09:43:28 <Taneb> It all seems a bit convoluted to me
09:44:06 <shachaf> How should I motivate tensor covariance and contravariance for someone who's used to thinking of tensors as arrays of numbers?
09:45:29 <Taneb> Start by showing them some things that behave as tensors but aren't arrays of numbers?
09:46:49 <shachaf> How should I understand tensor covariance and contravariance myself?
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09:47:03 <shachaf> I have a sense of it but it's not as helpful as I'd like.
09:47:31 <shachaf> Also how should I think of a double-contravariant tensor T^i^j?
09:47:42 <shachaf> T_i^j and T_i_j both make more sense to me.
09:47:53 <Taneb> Find a bunch of examples and prove the relevant laws until you get an intuition for it
09:48:07 <Taneb> I'm out of my depth here by quite a way, I'm afraid
09:50:19 <shachaf> Hm
09:51:00 <Taneb> These abstractions are like monads, in the sense that most analogies are going to be misleading
09:51:32 <shachaf> They're also like monads in that monads are a kind of tensor in the appropriate category.
09:51:38 <shachaf> (Or a family of tensors?)
09:52:24 <shachaf> (T^x_{j_i} for each i in N. Or something.)
09:52:41 <shachaf> What about trace, how should I think of that?
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10:06:28 <Taneb> I have a really bad intuition for trace
10:08:04 <Taneb> Bsaed on the category of bi-directional circuits
10:10:23 <shachaf> Trace in most categories makes sense.
10:10:30 <shachaf> I mean most traced monoidal categories.
10:10:44 <shachaf> But it's hard to translate that intuition to vector spaces.
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10:43:48 <shachaf> mniip: monoids and comonoids are also just kinds of tensor families hth
10:44:43 <shachaf> What is trace for the category of endofunctors with composition?
10:44:53 <mniip> trace?
10:45:18 <shachaf> Lots of monoidal categories have traces.
10:47:10 <shachaf> ...Maybe not this one, though.
10:47:54 <shachaf> I guess it would look like (forall a. u (f a) -> u (g a)) -> f a -> g a
10:48:00 <shachaf> Or (forall a. f (u a) -> g (u a)) -> f a -> g a
10:50:05 <Taneb> shachaf: you need dual objects to have trace,r ight?
10:50:42 <shachaf> No, trace is more general.
10:50:55 <shachaf> If you have duals you can define it in terms of them, though.
10:51:20 <mniip> next you're going to tell me categories have determinants
10:51:38 <Taneb> Why not ;)
10:51:42 <shachaf> Not so sure about determinant.
10:51:51 <shachaf> I feel like trace is more fundamental but also I don't understand it.
10:52:15 <shachaf> But if you have tensor product and trace you can define composition in terms of that.
10:52:23 <mniip> oh just multiply (end) all eigenvalues
10:53:28 <shachaf> Is the trace the coend of eigenvalues?
10:53:36 <shachaf> What are eigenvalues?
10:55:54 <shachaf> I know what scalars are, I guess.
10:57:58 <shachaf> So if f : A -> A and x : I -> A and k : I -> I, and f . x = x . k, then x is an eigenelement of f with eigenvalue k?
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11:00:06 <shachaf> Is that all?
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11:21:04 <mniip> I don't know, I just made it up
11:23:10 <shachaf> I don't know what the end thing would mean but I think there might be something to this definition of eigenvalues.
11:23:24 <shachaf> If the only scalar is id, then this gives you the usual definition of fixed points.
11:24:04 <shachaf> (So that's what you get if your tensor is categorical product.)
11:25:15 <shachaf> But what does it mean to add eigenvalues?
11:25:39 <shachaf> Multiplying them is easier.
11:26:00 <shachaf> You can just compose them, I guess, because scalars commute. (Or you can tensor them and probably get the same thing?)
11:26:49 <shachaf> Though what's the multiplicity of an eigenvalue?
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12:56:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+569) Created page with "==Idea from [[User:Digital Hunter]]== Hey, this message is technically addressed to [[User:Galaxtone]], but anyone else is welcome to provide ideas and the like.  Instead of u..."
12:58:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56607&oldid=56598 * Digital Hunter * (+92) 
12:59:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56608&oldid=56607 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Examples */
13:00:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56609&oldid=56608 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Examples */
13:02:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56610&oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+124) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */ new section
13:03:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56611&oldid=56610 * Digital Hunter * (+101) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */
13:05:43 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56612&oldid=56609 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */
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14:42:20 <izabera> it would be cool if you could write an elf binary that interprets a brainfuck program, and that elf binary can itself be interpreted as a brainfuck program to produce the same result 
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14:46:43 <alercah> that seems fairly trivial actually?
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14:47:29 <alercah> okay, maybe not trivial
14:48:25 <alercah> but it feels like it's mostly just "write the non-bf program" -> "modify the code not to contain any of BF's control characters" -> "add the BF code in a data section" -> "verify that the ELF headers don't mess you up and, if they do, twiddle a bit until it works"
14:53:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56613&oldid=56611 * Digital Hunter * (-225) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */
14:59:06 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56614&oldid=56612 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */ I made the call for concatenate K and the call for "set character at a point to value in a cell" P, so that they didn't get mixed up with C and S for cells and strings
15:01:04 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56615&oldid=56605 * Plokmijnuhby * (+78) 
15:02:14 <izabera> alercah: does that count as trivial in your books?
15:05:29 <alercah> izabera: it's not trivial to do
15:05:31 <alercah> but it's a trivial problem
15:05:33 <alercah> :P
15:06:26 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56616&oldid=56614 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* If Statements */ idk but I think it'll make interpreters easier
15:06:56 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56617&oldid=56616 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */
15:11:29 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56618&oldid=56617 * Digital Hunter * (+9) /* Instruction Syntax */
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15:53:17 <esowiki> [[Fungewars]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56619&oldid=56546 * Impomatic * (-1) punctuation
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16:05:37 <PinealGlandOptic> hi all. does anybody seen working example of something converting from DFA to regexp? using any method
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17:54:58 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: working code, or is the theory enough?
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17:56:10 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/2016/how-to-convert-finite-automata-to-regular-expressions has some discussion
17:56:16 <alercah> and some code
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18:19:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56620&oldid=56613 * Galaxtone * (+303) Replied and changed up the style so it's easier to look at.
18:20:19 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56621&oldid=56618 * Galaxtone * (+113) Added a note.
18:22:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56622&oldid=56621 * Galaxtone * (-528) Applied Suggestion #1
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18:53:34 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56623&oldid=56615 * Oerjan * (+167) Revert Plokmijnuhby's edit and explain why that's not enough to prove it non-TC (or else ''no'' Turing machine would be Turing-complete).
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18:55:19 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56624&oldid=56622 * Galaxtone * (-1) Small change to syntax of string length command
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19:10:21 <esowiki> [[Transio]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+7750) Created page on language (with standard).
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19:11:22 <esowiki> [[Transio]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56626&oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+21) 
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19:20:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56627&oldid=56514 * Bzim * (+14) 
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19:30:50 <oerjan> regarding today's GG, i predict Gil reacting like a stereotypical kid in a candy store.
19:31:34 <oerjan> (ok, this is an easy prediction)
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19:33:57 <int-e> But will the intruder with pendre's (spelling?) lantern turn up?
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19:35:24 <int-e> Prende, it is.
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19:37:02 <PinealGlandOptic> alercah: thanks, but I'm not that good to code these algos by myself :)
19:39:49 <esowiki> [[Transio]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56628&oldid=56626 * Bzim * (+9) 
19:46:18 <oerjan> int-e: hm right, they might want something from that place too...
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19:53:47 <alercah> PinealGlandOptic: there's examples of code in there, though
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20:33:55 <PinealGlandOptic> am I right lex/flex uses NFA because NFA can distinguish between "foo" and "fooo", while DFA is not?
20:35:52 <int-e> PinealGlandOptic: No. NFAs and DFAs can recognize the same languages. An NFA may be exponentially smaller.
20:36:14 <PinealGlandOptic> so regexp implementations, lex and flex uses NFA because of performance reasons?
20:36:26 <PinealGlandOptic> not because NFA is more suitable?
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20:38:17 <int-e> I don't even know whether the premise is true.
20:39:33 <int-e> (I've answered the part of the question that I could answer.)
20:40:18 <PinealGlandOptic> int-e: thanks
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20:44:05 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
20:44:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 112020Z 12005KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 17006KT
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20:45:50 <imode> @metar KSEA
20:45:50 <lambdabot> KSEA 111953Z 36009KT 320V030 10SM FEW040 25/12 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP228 T02500122
20:45:52 <esowiki> [[Transio]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56629&oldid=56628 * Bzim * (+511) Added turing completeness.
20:54:02 <arseniiv> PinealGlandOptic:  “more suitable” is more general than “more expressive”, so someone could definitely say yes, NFA is more suitable in some context
20:54:42 <arseniiv> as is DFA in other context , too
20:55:05 <PinealGlandOptic> arseniiv: thanks
20:55:09 <arseniiv> :)
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21:07:16 <esowiki> [[Transio]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56630&oldid=56629 * Bzim * (+129) Added categories
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