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00:59:01 <quintopia> do you know the answer to my question above?
01:00:14 <quintopia> what was the first lang that used the lengths of arbitrary words to define numbers?
01:03:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57052&oldid=57047 * Oerjan * (+1) *Cough*
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01:09:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57053&oldid=57045 * Oerjan * (+294) Motivation
01:11:05 <oerjan> quintopia: i do not, although .Gertrude is a weirder way of making a language based on word lengths
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01:43:49 <esowiki> [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57054&oldid=57034 * Ais523 * (+387) on a suggestion by rjan
01:44:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57055&oldid=57053 * Ais523 * (+245) specification updated
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04:01:38 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57056&oldid=56281 * A * (+160) /* Normal implementations */
04:02:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57057&oldid=57056 * A * (-5) Oh no, I bragged.
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04:19:13 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57058&oldid=57057 * A * (+84)
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06:50:53 <esowiki> [[CC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57059 * A * (+969) Created CC, trying to prove it to be not Turing-complete
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07:48:09 <int-e> oh another half-specified language
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11:08:21 <wob_jonas> quintopia: lengths of arbitrary words as numbers => I considered that when doing perl golf with source code form restricted to lowercase letters and spaces only, because you can just write length jjjjjjjjj to get the number 9, but it turns out to never worth it
11:09:10 <wob_jonas> oh, actually, it might be worth it
11:09:22 <wob_jonas> this table says it's worth for the constants 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=340164
11:09:33 <wob_jonas> but of course that might not be optimal
11:10:56 <int-e> Hah. "The list has been updated." is a pretty useless satement.
11:11:26 <wob_jonas> int-e: I explain the update below the list
11:15:27 <int-e> wob_jonas: I found it eventually.
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11:43:25 <wob_jonas> I hate how when ebay sends email about an order, it truncates the name of the item purchased. The item names are usually long to have as many search keywords as possible, and the truncated part often doesn't contain the actually important information.
11:46:20 <wob_jonas> And I'm not talking about the email subject. In the subject, truncating makes sense. It's the email body where this bothers me.
11:47:43 <wob_jonas> Also, I think ebay doesn't understand show slow post is to Hungary from East Asia. They always ask me to give feedback to items that haven't arrived yet. Heck, even some of the expected arrival times that items list are underestimates, which I know and expect items to be later than that, but still.
11:48:23 <wob_jonas> And I think when an item arrives very late, so I don't give feedback until that, ebay punishes me by hiding the item from the list of my purchases so I can't find it anywhere. This only happened once or twice, but still.
11:50:07 <wob_jonas> I could just lie and give feedback before the item arrives, but then I'd be in a lost position in the very rare case when the item doesn't arrive at all.
11:55:33 <impomatic> Ebay is a pain for buyers and sellers. Especially when buying / selling internationally :-(
11:57:02 <int-e> impomatic: heh I read that as "intentionally" at first
11:57:29 <impomatic> Well I've occasionally bought stuff unintentionally!
11:58:27 * impomatic buys and sells lots of ZX Spectrum software.
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12:03:38 <wob_jonas> I've already mentioned the very informative "1.00 HUF = 0.00 CAD" rounded exchange rates on ebay's special paypal interface,
12:04:41 <wob_jonas> although these turn out to be irrelevant anyway, because after like a year of using paypal and ebay, I found out that there is a way after all to make paypal charge my bank in the foreign currency instead of converting from HUF itself,
12:05:36 <wob_jonas> only the interface for that is well hidden and requires additional work for each payment, which I think they've done deliberately because currency conversion fees is the main way Paypal profits from my payments.
12:07:17 <wob_jonas> oh, that reminds me. I bought a spare mobile phone. I should order the screen protector foil in advance this time, rather than when I already have to use the phone.
12:14:41 <impomatic> I've had a few bargains on eBay recently. I bought about 70 issues of Scientific American for 10 :-) I like the Computer Recreations column.
12:15:15 <impomatic> Is eBay's currency conversion rate bad?
12:15:38 <wob_jonas> impomatic: ebay doesn't itself handle payment. I usually pay through paypal, but depending on the seller, you can pay in other ways
12:15:49 <wob_jonas> impomatic: but the paypal currency conversion rate is really bad
12:16:10 <wob_jonas> deliberately, because that's a good source of income for them
12:20:16 <impomatic> Hmmm... Google says 1 GBP is 1.13 EUR. I received a couple of EUR payments yesterday and they used the rate 1.18 EUR -> 1 GBP.
12:20:29 <impomatic> Just under 5% lost in currency conversion.
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12:39:21 <int-e> Hmm. 5% seems high.
12:44:06 <wob_jonas> impomatic: their terms and conditions describe exactly how they compute all the conversions, but you can just check the current exchange rates on paypal and see that they're high too
12:44:43 <wob_jonas> my bank offers me much better rates when charging my card in a foreign currency, so that's always worth to choose
12:45:27 <int-e> from what I've seen, paypal, officially, charges 2.5% over the interbank exchange rate
12:46:03 <int-e> but I see contradictory numerical examples, so I'm confused.
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12:55:59 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's complicated. it depends on the details how much they charge. their TOS is long and complicated.
12:56:51 <int-e> My latest foreign currency transaction was a 300GBP cash withdrawal that ended up as 345.62EUR; the interbank exchange rate was 1.1276..1.1316 that day, so that amounted to 1.8% to 2.17% loss.
12:57:33 <int-e> (and I have no clue how much of that went to the ATM operator)
12:58:15 <int-e> (Though, hmm, I did get a receipt stating 300 GBP, no fee.)
12:58:20 <wob_jonas> you withdraw cash from paypal? that sounds strange
12:58:56 <int-e> I'm trying to get an idea what's normal, so I'm looking at other ways of doing the conversion.
12:59:34 <wob_jonas> banks have two different exchange rates, one for cash transactions (called "valuta" in Hungarian) and a much better for payments or transfers (called "deviza" in Hungarian)
13:00:10 <wob_jonas> here you pay the former, plus you probably also pay a fee for the cash withdrawal, and possibly a high fee if you have withdrawn the cash from an ATM abroad
13:00:56 <wob_jonas> you can see from the columns of https://www.otpbank.hu/portal/hu/Arfolyamok/OTP how much cheaper is the "deviza" exchange rate
13:01:16 <wob_jonas> apparently there's also a third rate for cheques, I didn't know that
13:01:34 <wob_jonas> or... I probably knew but forgot, because that's almost never relevant here
13:01:51 <wob_jonas> I only ever used a bank cheque once in my life, because I'm in Europe
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13:03:10 <int-e> my latest GBP credit card charge had a 2.0 to 2.7% loss by the same calculation (and the amount was in the same ballpark)
13:03:32 <int-e> I have not checked the terms of service... maybe later.
13:04:20 <wob_jonas> but banks always have tricky fees other than currency exchange, so it can be worth to read their terms to figure out the hacks to get cheaper fees for the things you do
13:05:33 <int-e> Anyway, I would still say that 5% is high, unless it's for a small amount.
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13:05:55 <wob_jonas> it requires really strange hacks. for example, if I want to withdraw a larger amount of cash (which is not common), then it's cheaper for me to use the ATM of any bank other than my bank.
13:07:51 <wob_jonas> sadly the same is true about taxes. there's a strange construction of effectively investing supported combined by the state through taxes and a side company associated with the bank called "egészségpénztár" that I should have used to invest money into for years, but I only found out about it now.
13:08:06 <wob_jonas> and telephone and internet charges too
13:08:35 <wob_jonas> sadly all these keep changing their terms a lot so it may require more of your time to figure out the right hack than how much you gain from it
13:09:02 <wob_jonas> very often they deliberately obfuscate their terms so that they effectively charge people for not regularly reading them
13:10:33 <wob_jonas> at some point you have to draw a limit for how much reading small letter rules is worth your time
13:12:22 <wob_jonas> and these days they combine it with hard to use web interfaces to access documents and settings of course
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17:38:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57060&oldid=57055 * Oerjan * (+2069) Reversible Brainfuck
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23:17:12 <mertyildiran> Hi, about a year ago, I wanted to develop a self-replicating and evolving computer program (which equals to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_organism) but I failed to get a meaningful result. I also couldn't create a competitive environment to judge which program is better. This is the program that I wrote https://github.com/DragonComputer/Swarm
23:17:43 <mertyildiran> I know it's not that complicated or polished. But my purpose here to express an idea.
23:20:22 <mertyildiran> Python here gives me the benefit of overcoming "issue of program brittleness" but at the same time it kills the parallelism and the ability to do stuff with memory in low level.
23:22:36 <mertyildiran> So I guarantee error free new generations but I'm unable to provide the necessary conditions to create a survival challenge. Do you have any idea or advice?
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