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00:21:47 <lambdabot> ENVA 302350Z 25009KT CAVOK 20/14 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 27005KT
00:22:21 <oerjan> somehow, it feels a lot hotter. must be side effect of today's xkcd.
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00:30:09 <tswett> I've got a silly question for you guys.
00:30:17 <tswett> What mathematical statements are meaningful?
00:30:48 <tswett> Presumably arithmetic statements are meaningful.
00:31:20 <tswett> Suppose I've got a computer program P which enumerates arithmetic statements.
00:31:35 <tswett> Is the statement "all statements enumerated by P are true" meaningful?
00:32:55 <oerjan> that's a pretty deep philosophical questions on which people disagree.
00:33:50 <tswett> For the time being, I'm going to assume that *only* arithmetic statements are meaningful.
00:34:25 <tswett> In particular, the statement "all statements enumerated by P are meaningful" is *not* meaningful.
00:35:10 <oerjan> intuitionists might have a different answer than classical mathematicians, in particular.
00:35:25 <oerjan> and ultrafinitists yet another.
00:35:51 <tswett> Intuitionists are likely to doubt that the Goldbach hypothesis is meaningful.
00:36:16 <oerjan> unless it can proved or disproved.
00:36:27 <oerjan> (preferably using intuitionist methods)
00:37:38 <tswett> Now, I've got a sheet of paper here.
00:37:53 <tswett> On this sheet of paper, I wrote down every single arithmetic statement that I believe is true.
00:38:07 <oerjan> that sounds pretty dense.
00:38:07 <tswett> (It's a very large sheet of paper, and that took me a very long time to do.)
00:38:34 <oerjan> did it collapse into a black hole due to the bekenstein bound?
00:39:07 <tswett> Anyway, just now I wrote on the sheet of paper: "Let U be the formal system whose axioms are all of the statements written above."
00:39:24 <tswett> Now, below that, do you think I should write "U is consistent"?
00:39:38 <tswett> (I wrote that sentence at the bottom, of course.)
00:42:01 <oerjan> not necessary. you might be uncertain whether arithmetic is consistent.
00:42:54 <oerjan> although then you get into questions of what you mean by "true" in an inconsistent system.
00:43:05 <oerjan> (other than "everything is true")
00:43:14 <tswett> But I believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic.
00:43:30 <oerjan> that would seem to imply they're consistent.
00:43:51 <oerjan> godel's completeness theorem and all.
00:44:14 <tswett> If I don't believe in the meaningfulness of anything besides arithmetic statements, then I can't believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic.
00:44:21 <tswett> Because that's not an arithmetic statement.
00:44:25 <oerjan> except that presupposes ZFC, which implies arithmetic.
00:44:48 <tswett> So, in turn, I have no reason to believe that U is consistent.
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01:05:05 <int-e> "Do you wish to compact all local and offline folders to save disk space? This will save about 628 GB." - I have my doubts.
01:05:41 <imode> secretly, it's encouraging you to shred your harddrive in anticipation of an FBI raid.
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04:07:17 <HackEso> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+031A COMBINING LEFT ANGLE ABOVE]
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08:33:30 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57091&oldid=57090 * Plokmijnuhby * (+147)
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09:41:32 <wob_jonas> so, I'm used to the convention from C and other languages that I put whitespace on the inside of a comment marker if the comment is natural language text, but no whitespace if it's code temporarily disabled (except when there's a tokenizing ambiguity from omitting the whitespace). but should I be using this convention in VBA? It looks sort of ugly
09:41:33 <wob_jonas> because the comment marker apostrophe looks so much more unsubstantial than slashes or sharps.
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12:28:09 <alercah> wob_jonas: I believe that the only correct style guidance for commented-out code is to have none.
12:29:12 <wob_jonas> my question is, should I use whitespace for when it's a textual comment?
12:30:04 <wob_jonas> that's the much more common case for my code, since I'm in the habit of commenting out code blocks with ifdefs or if conditions rather than putting a // before each line
12:31:32 <wob_jonas> mind you, VBA doesn't have ifdef, so there I can't do that
12:36:32 <int-e> wob_jonas: I think I put whitespace in all cases, including commented out code.
12:37:05 <int-e> (though indeed most of the time it's #if 0 / #endif, when I'm coding C or C++)
12:53:58 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57092&oldid=50418 * Wastl * (+2) /* Example Program */ Corrected cat until EOF
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14:20:40 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/
14:20:41 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
15:23:27 <wob_jonas> apparently the VBA parser requires a space between an identifier and an ampersand operator, because it can actually parse an ampersand as a sigil too
15:23:44 <wob_jonas> the manual didn't even mention that this dialect of basic supports sigils
15:25:09 <wob_jonas> I mean, it makes sense in retrospect, but it's annoying because I already auto-generated code for some long string concatenations that I have to regenerate nw
15:39:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: you should really give your operators room to breathe :P
15:41:17 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's sort of my former senior programmer said too, that he wants spaces around operators as the most important whitespacing rule in code conventions
15:42:27 <Taneb> Spaces around close parentheses but not open parantheses
15:42:42 <Taneb> Like this: "foo(bar ) +1"
15:43:15 <Taneb> You know, seeing that has made me realise I haven't eaten in over 24 hours. I should get some food
15:43:54 <wob_jonas> you at least made sure to keep hydrated, right?
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15:47:32 <Taneb> I've got myself a bowl of ceral
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16:29:16 <arseniiv> I missed #esolang while being almost entirely in other places two weeks prior
16:31:02 <arseniiv> though I don’t read thoroughly and usually have nothing to add, it’s fun or/and useful
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16:46:54 <MDude> I'm thinking it'd be nice to extend the idea of reversible computing to analog comptuers.
16:48:05 <MDude> As far as I'm aware, modeling analog computers would involve using continuous functions.
16:49:31 <MDude> And apparently if you have a reversible function that's also continuous, it's a homeomorphism?
17:03:34 <arseniiv> if the function R → R is continuous and invertible, it’s strictly monotone AFAIR. For functions R^n → R^n IDK
17:05:20 <arseniiv> a homeomorphism is a topological notion, and R or R^n do admit various topologies not too non-standard to not consider them
17:06:56 <MDude> Yeah, I was wondering where to look next since I wasn't sure what to make of things suddenly veering itno topology.
17:20:14 <arseniiv> I think it could be described using terms from basic [multidimensional] analysis entirely, and no special topological treatment seem to have to be used to find something here
17:20:45 <arseniiv> no need to swim into deep waters for every small task
17:27:15 <MDude> Monotonic functions seem to be in the direction of what I'm looking for, though for brining things back to computing it'd be nice to have functions with more than one argument.
17:28:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57093&oldid=57089 * Raumaankidwai * (-2) /* Pyth */
17:34:09 <MDude> That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though.
17:34:38 <MDude> Basic multidimensional analysis is proably something I should look into, thanks.
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17:49:32 <Taneb> OK, I think my laptop's hard drive might not be working
17:50:14 <Taneb> Where's a good place to buy a replacement
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17:53:07 <Taneb> Booting fails and says "try running fsck manually" or something like that
17:53:28 <Taneb> Booted onto a USB an ran fsk manually, get a ton of "Buffer I/O error"
17:54:04 <Taneb> Don't know enough to know what's relevant from this output, but it doesn't look friendly
17:54:14 <int-e> you could query the smart data smartctl -a /dev/sda ?
17:54:22 <int-e> (or whatever the hdd device is)
17:54:32 <Hooloovo0> yeah, that sounds like a hard drive failure
17:54:53 <Hooloovo0> I'd recommend immediate backups with ddrescue or the like
17:55:16 <Taneb> There's nothing on it I particularly want to keep
17:56:17 <Taneb> ...I've got literally no idea how to remove the hard drive
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17:58:00 <Taneb> Some kind of low-end HP
17:58:36 <int-e> I suppose there are soldered on SSDs and similar sins.
18:00:25 <Taneb> Might just be new-laptop time
18:01:05 <Taneb> So... anyone recommend a new laptop?
18:02:34 <int-e> (but I have no better advice; my last personal laptop was one of th Acer One netbooks)
18:05:02 <Hooloovo0> I've also heard decent things about eurocoms or some other clevos
18:27:13 <arseniiv> MDude: That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though. => you most likely don’t need this total ordering. It is in a sense incompatible with more than one dimensions
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19:33:40 <MDude> Yeah, it's just a question of whether continuity and bijection are, in combination, also incompatible with more than one dimensions.
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20:23:36 <arseniiv> MDude: they are compatible, look at identity function. It’s always continuous and bijective. Invertible affine transformations are both, also. Now you can slightly “deform” an affine transformation and obtain more sofisticated examples. I’m not going to list all the possible functions, though, as I haven’t studied this topic
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20:26:46 <HackEso> olist 1131: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:28:33 <MDude> Yeah, I just need to figure out what area I need to study to learn some examples less trivial than the identity function and simple inversion.
20:29:27 <MDude> Affine transformations are rpobably what I'm looking for, so again, thanks.
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20:38:30 <MDude> Yeah, this seems to be what I'm looking for.
20:41:42 <MDude> I think I got confused at some point and dismissed roation when I shouldn't.
20:57:25 <MDude> It also seems like a lot of this could be implemented pretty well as optical systems, which would would be handy.
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23:39:23 <Sgeo_> That's a lot of olist
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