00:00:50 <boily> alercah: hellorcahellorcah.
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00:28:26 <boily> tournament! subscription! riichimontreal.org!
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01:40:59 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas french wiktionary is worth a check because it's the best maintained. <-- ah ok i was assuming the english was
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01:50:14 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/
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01:56:13 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
01:56:21 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
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01:56:27 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
01:59:27 <oerjan> hg blame quotes | paste
01:59:31 <oerjan> `` hg blame quotes | paste
01:59:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.17862
02:00:54 <shachaf> Yay, paste doesn't write to hg
02:06:39 <oerjan> wait what's that paste -sd'|' thing...
02:07:21 <oerjan> `` hg blame --skip "$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)" quotes | paste
02:07:22 <HackEso> hg annotate: option --skip not recognized \ https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.1675
02:07:52 <oerjan> (also marked as experimental)
02:12:40 <oerjan> hm blaming an earlier revision won't work because lines may have been deleted.
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02:33:43 <imode> ffs, there was a language that was a cross between finite state machines and string rewriting. it was on github. I cannot find it. it was an esolang.
02:46:04 <esowiki> [[OFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57285&oldid=57278 * Ais523 * (+265) /* Computational Class */ unusable, not TC
02:46:35 <esowiki> [[OFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57286&oldid=57285 * Ais523 * (+10) clarify in the introduction that this isn't TC
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03:09:37 <imode> what would y'all consider to be the most fundamental control structure.
03:09:52 <imode> or set of control structures.
03:11:04 <Sgeo> Any ActiveX experts here?
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03:22:36 <oerjan> imode: the reverse jump with continuation pirouette hth
03:27:13 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57287&oldid=57280 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Alphabet Stew */ Fix header
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04:40:40 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas ok that doesn't go to well. e.g. i found https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_italien/parlare and the information there is clearly _wrong_ on the pronunciation of parlerò.
04:41:48 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas (i am trying to find an example with pronunciations not just of the lemma forms, but also the inflections.)
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04:52:09 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas and the saddest thing - none of the other wiktionaries even attempt to give pronunciations for parlerò or parleremo (checking the latter because it has no accent mark so you cannot deduce it)
04:53:14 * oerjan maybe should assume wob_jonas logreads?
04:54:10 <oerjan> so i still don't know whether the e in -emo is open or closed. (i assume it's most likely stressed.)
04:54:53 <oerjan> hm i could google for an accented version
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05:03:07 <oerjan> é according to a google book hit, it seems.
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09:38:44 <wob_jonas> "does somebody read webserials in languages other than English?" => yes, but only one.
09:39:54 <wob_jonas> David Madore's weblog at http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/ , who is native bilingual in French and English, and a striving polyglot, and is blogging in both English and French. The best of his entries are the mathematics ones, most of which are in French. (These days, most of his entries overall are French, it used to be more English.)
09:40:11 <wob_jonas> I reply to his French maths entries in English comments, then he replies to me in English.
09:40:41 <wob_jonas> webcomics => well, David did link to a few French webcomics, but I'm not interested.
09:41:10 <wob_jonas> I know only enough French to struggle through most of his entries slowly, and he writes in a very clear prose, and maths is easy to read anyway.
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09:42:08 <wob_jonas> He also has a few articles about amateur linguistics
09:43:13 <wob_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/lang.html for the latter, and about his experiences in learning foreign languages incl russian and arabic
09:45:30 <wob_jonas> Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no.
09:45:40 <wob_jonas> His blog doesn't count as a "webserial" I think.
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10:14:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: so you're saying you checked a paper dictionary, and wiktionary is definitely wrong about a common italian word? it happens, I've seen such cases on a wiki. I just found two Hungarian words that supposedly mean circus in English, but I very much doubt it, unless it's an obscure meaning of "circus".
10:15:04 <wob_jonas> oerjan: doesn't Italian have some default convention for omitting the stress accent even in dictionaries if it matches a simple default rule?
10:15:27 <wob_jonas> Of course that doesn't work for a wiki where people might just not add the stress mark, but still.
10:16:16 <wob_jonas> oerjan: French wiktionary at least gives pronunciation for almost all French words, including almost all inflections.
10:17:13 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's almost stupid to ask, but you have considered that you're just wrong about Italian and wiktionary is correct, right?
10:18:15 <wob_jonas> you could also try to ask on #wiktionary on freenode, per https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels .
10:20:06 <wob_jonas> and the editors of the French wiktionary are helpful if you ask. they might not start to add stress marks for all italian words all the sudden, but at least they might figure out what's the deal with them. You can ask in https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionnaire:Ambassade , Yann is pretty active and a volunteer there and is fluent in English
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12:04:10 <wob_jonas> Following up the other popular webcomic authors each publishing the book is qwantz with a book to be published later in 2018: http://www.howtoinventeverything.com/
12:05:01 <wob_jonas> previous webcomics like that include xkcd and SMBC. And that's just the ones that aren't mainly the same webcomic in print form, like Irregular's and Questionable Comic and OOTS.
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12:43:00 <Taneb> izabera: just timed my cubing and I got an average of 2:19. Lots of room to improve :)
12:43:23 <izabera> did you see the xiaomi rubik's cube?
12:43:55 <FireFly> I'm probably roughly the same speed I think
12:44:20 <FireFly> not really great either :p
12:44:20 <Taneb> I just timed 5 and took the middle 3 (I believe that's what they do in tournaments)
12:44:35 <FireFly> I could do that when I get home
12:46:05 <FireFly> the only approach I know is very slow and step-by-step, really
12:46:22 <izabera> yeah you must get rid of the steps, steps are bad
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12:50:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * New user account
12:52:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57288&oldid=57269 * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * (+156) /* Introductions */
12:54:11 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57289&oldid=57230 * Ais523 * (+121) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ two more examples
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13:05:26 <wob_jonas> Taneb: usually middle 8 of 10, but people sometimes do just middle 3 of 5.
13:06:25 <wob_jonas> Also there's #rubik which taught me a bit, but mostly I just need to practice a lot and occasionally think about which parts to concentrate on and which parts to relearn to do differently (confusing at first but eventually worth).
13:07:10 <wob_jonas> #rubik is about as off-topic as this channel, the regulars talk about rust and the vim editor.
13:08:02 <wob_jonas> and they have a bot to give a random cube scramble, and they sometimes talk about cubing, so it's not off-topic all the time
13:08:11 <wob_jonas> you know that sort of thing if you're here a lot
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13:11:58 <Taneb> My next plan is to get better at planning my first moves
13:18:49 <Taneb> I really need to get my own cube
13:19:02 <Taneb> I've got one at my parents' house and I've otherwise been borrowing one of my coworker's
13:22:42 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I bought two, and I'm now using the one that I like better.
13:23:10 <wob_jonas> It's the one named TheValk, but what cube you want is sort of a matter of personal choice.
13:23:55 <wob_jonas> I should still buy a good silver mirror some day, as a secondary thing to learn better, solving it blindfolded. (I can already solve the silver mirror, obviously, but too slowly.)
13:24:16 <wob_jonas> But the primary will be the 3x3x3 cube two-handed normal solve, as is the most popular.
13:24:31 <wob_jonas> I'm also bad at it, but every little practice helps.
13:25:16 <FireFly> Taneb: just buy a cheap speedcube for a tenner or something
13:28:02 <FireFly> https://www.cuboss.se/shop/yuxin-little-magic-3x3/ I think it was this one that I got
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13:39:14 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no. => :D
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14:35:01 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: I'll rewatch the parts of the video that I recognized wrong. "Ë" => yes, that's definitely a "h", not a "ž", because it doesn't have the middle part. The cursive "ž" is longer, with lots of space for the middle.
14:36:21 <izabera> Taneb: want to split the shipping costs?
14:37:07 <wob_jonas> and yes, it's also an "m" in the end at the "Ë" word, with two tent-tops and angle joint at the left bottom to separate it
14:37:13 <Taneb> izabera: ...honestly I was just planning on going to Sainsburys and buying an official, non-speed cube
14:38:02 <Taneb> Because learning the algorithms would be better for me than just having a slicker cube
14:38:11 <Taneb> Or learning better algorithms
14:38:21 <wob_jonas> Taneb: you need a speed cube, even if a cheap one.
14:38:47 <wob_jonas> don't buy the Rubik brand if that's what you mean by "official"
14:39:01 <wob_jonas> ask on #rubik if you need help choosing
14:39:10 <wob_jonas> you can order good cubes for cheap from ebay, like I did
14:39:28 <wob_jonas> cheaper than I can buy the official nice-looking ones in the local game stores
14:39:57 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
14:40:55 <wob_jonas> unless you're in a country where the post and customs offices open every fucking cheap ebay order from the east and makes you pay double its price as import tariff
14:41:09 <wob_jonas> like Sweden starting last year, but hopefully it won't stick
14:41:32 <wob_jonas> I don't know the situation in Norway or the UK or wherever you guys are
14:41:49 <wob_jonas> UK I think, so quick order it before Brexit
14:42:36 <FireFly> Er, specifically 75 or 125 SEK, I think, depending on value of the thing you order
14:42:38 <Taneb> Yeah, we're both in the UK
14:43:15 <wob_jonas> Yes, it's a "v" in "Lavraziâ", because it looks like a latin b
14:43:21 <FireFly> Taneb: the non-speedcube cubes are horrible though, so I don't see any reason to get that :p
14:43:42 <FireFly> like a decent speedcube would probably be both significantly smoother and cheaper
14:43:58 <Taneb> FireFly: honestly, I find the stiffness relaxing
14:44:24 <Taneb> It helps calm me down sometimes to do something that has some resistance with my hands
14:45:30 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, so get a stiffer speedcube. That's why I chose TheValk. The other one I bought turns too easily, plus its corners are so loose I have multiple times accidentally twisted a corner in place without meaning to.
14:45:31 <Taneb> Getting better at solving them is mostly a pleasant side effect
14:46:12 <wob_jonas> But I'm still very glad I bought a speedcube this year.
14:46:35 <wob_jonas> I'd have bought one earlier if I knew they were this good
14:46:40 <FireFly> There's a nice boardgames-and-stuff store in Prague, I wonder if they have speedcubes too
14:47:01 <wob_jonas> they're on ebay from east asia with often free shipping
14:47:12 <Taneb> So, what's the advantage of speedcubes?
14:47:48 <wob_jonas> they're more pleasant to work with. won't lock up when you try to turn it, which breaks your concentration a lot
14:48:08 <FireFly> They havea different construction, so that you can rotate a layer without the others being exactly completely in the right position, I think
14:48:23 <wob_jonas> go talk to #rubik, they'll explain it better
14:48:28 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the construction of a traditional cube looks like, but the speedcubes have like a sphere with spokes in the middle
14:48:49 <wob_jonas> there are various constructions, including magnetic ones (mine isn't magnetic)
14:49:04 <Taneb> FireFly: traditional is a sphere with grooves, I think
14:49:43 <wob_jonas> Buy a non-speed cube for your small child above three years who won't swallow the pieces if he takes it off with his tiny fingers, and be prepared that when he does so, his hand will get dirty.
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14:50:24 <wob_jonas> But he'll enjoy disassembling and daddy putting it back together, and if he's six year old, then he'll also enjoy assembling and turning it. maybe. every child is different.
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14:57:26 <wob_jonas> I don't think you have a small child
14:57:46 <wob_jonas> I'm just saying, a toy store cube is a worthless children's toy
15:07:51 <wob_jonas> By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi
15:08:21 <wob_jonas> yet without the hole, if you extended the vertical lines to reach the top, they'd look entirely normal
15:11:27 <wob_jonas> aarseniv: "Solnce" => indeed. it's a bottom-joined "o", the one I mentioned was strange to me, but with a very short join on o's side, then the required tiny angle join on the "l" for a low connection
15:12:24 <wob_jonas> Now let me watch the rest of the letters. And I hope near the end you manage to work in words with examples of the rarer letters with different connections, which will be tricky
15:13:11 <wob_jonas> "T" => standalone top is still the only really strange part
15:14:29 <wob_jonas> damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly
15:14:57 <wob_jonas> also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that
15:17:05 <wob_jonas> "Tenočt..." ... "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations?
15:18:28 <wob_jonas> Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange
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15:28:41 <wob_jonas> "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again
15:28:50 <wob_jonas> yeah, at this point you were getting tired
15:31:20 <wob_jonas> Ok, now here it's getting ugly and harder to read. "Cicik..." "Cicikar" and the first i is squashed
15:44:53 <wob_jonas> I have to leave, dunno when I can actually watch this video
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16:22:13 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas calling me with the other vowel doubled doesn’t give me notifications(
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16:33:16 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi => it could be connected, I think. If you want, definitely do connect. It’s a fancy, and I don’t remember getting bad grades in middle school about not following it strictly, as with many other details
16:33:56 <arseniiv> oh I fear that message has been split in half, but I haven’t yet read to the bottom
16:35:30 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly => oops I have been afraid it could be so
16:38:30 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that => I was unsure there. A friend have said me after he watched that they’ve been taught to write kratka in й (and maybe dots in ё) just after the “base” is written, not after all the “bases” in the word are written
16:39:10 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations? => yeah
16:40:44 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas That capital "U" is strange => if you mean it needs a hook I’d agree. When I write it nearly cursively, I often add a hook, it looks pleasant
16:43:24 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Uran" is that another celestial? => yes, Uranus (and also uranium, but it’s of course not a place; also curiously uranium is simply уран, but neptunium and plutonium are suddenly нептуний and плутоний, with an -ий suffix homological with -ium)
16:45:07 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again => the name is read right, it’s a glacier somewhere, also I had decided the first ло is written incorrectly and showed a more correct version, п there for completeness of о form
16:50:52 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas also an addition to a previous one: <= Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange => no, actually there’s evidence Russian cursive was based on Latin one and it almost hadn’t evolve organically as Latin had
16:51:57 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas Цицикар is also right. Sorry it goes harder to the end
16:52:48 <arseniiv> also forgive me #esoteric I’ll make a test of lambdabot memory here, too
16:53:18 <arseniiv> @tell aarseniv please don’t try to impersonate me, it’s too evident
16:53:54 <arseniiv> …and I hoped they wouldn’t save a message for an unregistered nickname user
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17:47:18 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57290&oldid=57284 * DMC * (+32) /* The Instruction set */
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17:50:45 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57291&oldid=57290 * DMC * (+102) /* added Truth machine code */
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18:17:12 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57292&oldid=54870 * DMC * (+158) /* Examples */
18:17:45 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57293&oldid=57292 * DMC * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
18:19:53 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57294&oldid=57279 * DMC * (+1) /* Alphabet Stew */
18:21:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57295&oldid=57294 * DMC * (+46) /* Implementations */
18:24:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57296&oldid=57295 * DMC * (+4) /* Implementations */
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18:51:36 <xkapastel> anyone here familiar with the Jelly golfing language?
18:59:40 <arseniiv> someone definitely was, though I don’t remember who. Try searching the logs
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19:03:37 <arseniiv> for example => 08:22:46 <wob_jonas> I know about jelly because ais523 programs in it
19:10:52 <arseniiv> it’s November 2017 and still he’s the only one telling useful things about it. ATMunn tried to program in Jelly and failed (in December, 17, the same year)
19:11:59 <xkapastel> mm, i'll try and ambush him when he shows up again then
19:21:07 <arseniiv> no prob; ftr I’ve decided to search all 2017 months, and there was only ais523
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20:13:54 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: the reason this russian cursive is so unintuitive to me is that the connection between the letters work completely differently. firstly, it's backwards from the simple way I model latin cursive.
20:15:25 <wob_jonas> the way I model it, most letters end near the bottom and some end near the top, and all letters can start at the top so for normal letters the connection is an upwards slanting straight line, and for letters ending up, the connection is a little smiling line dipping down whose top is on the line that separates the small size letters from the ascend
20:16:01 <wob_jonas> some letters need uglier variant forms after a letter that ends on the top, and they get squashed, because they'd rather have a connection on the bottom
20:18:14 <wob_jonas> b, o, r, v, w end on the top, a, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, s, t, u, y, z end on the bottom, and how x is supposed to be written in normal cursive is a complete
20:19:00 <wob_jonas> e gets a smaller loop after an upper connection, with the top smiley being lengthened so it smoothly forms to bottom of the loop, but a nice large loop for a lower connection.
20:20:10 <wob_jonas> f and l get a nice large loop for a bottom connection, and since it has an ascender, they still have a large enough loop for an upper connection, but look slightly stranger, especially f where the loop doesn't intersect the cross then
20:21:23 <wob_jonas> r gets hard to write for a top connection because it's supposed to start with a top frown, so normally after an upper connection you're supposed to make a tilde from the top frown and the bottom frown, but this is only in the style I learned, most people use a completely different looking alternate form
20:23:14 <wob_jonas> i, m, n, u, v, w, y start with a vertical line from top to bottom at full length of a normal length character, and the smiley or upwards slant meet at a sharp angle at the top of that line, so there's always a sharp angle connection at top for those
20:24:02 <wob_jonas> t is sort of similar, but you connect in the middle of the even longer vertical line, write the ascender of the same line up and a 180 degree turn at top, then straight down to almost the baseline
20:25:16 <wob_jonas> f, h, k, l start with a looped ascender where you connect to the intersection of the loop, smoothly continuing either the upwards slant or the smiley into the start of the right side of the loop, and then the loop ends like a normal downwards line
20:27:10 <wob_jonas> after the downwards line, in b, i, t, u, v, w the downwards line doesn't quite reach the baseline, but curve out in a bottom smiley instead; in h, k, m, n, and r the vertical line reaches the baseline vertical and makes a 180 degree turm; f and p go even further and the vertical line reaches the bottom of the descender
20:28:01 <wob_jonas> whereas in this russian alphabet you're showing me, the connection is decided backwards, it depends on the next letter, not the previous letter, and the connecting lines or angles are different too
20:29:08 <wob_jonas> oerjan: English vs French wiktionary is sort of a tie, they're different in different ways
20:30:41 <wob_jonas> I also have no idea how to write uppercase letters in cursive properly, they're weird
20:30:56 <wob_jonas> I think they do have these parts that are supposed to be written later in some styles too
20:32:02 <wob_jonas> the way I was taught, the cross of the t and the dot of the i and the acute accents and diaresis and double acute are supposed to be added after the whole word, because it breaks the connection, but I never do that. I write a full letter, it's easier even if it's uglier.
20:32:13 <wob_jonas> and there are variants on many letters
20:33:21 <wob_jonas> like, in some, f is supposed to have a pen lift after the end of the downwards line and start the cross in a new line, but the cross isn't written after the word because it's what connects smoothly to the upwards slant for the next letter.
20:33:37 <wob_jonas> the cross is also a smiley by the way, whereas the cross of the t is a straight line
20:33:41 <wob_jonas> I should try to make images or something
20:34:11 <wob_jonas> but sane people don't lift the pen for f, they connect the bottom straight to the hook because that doesn't make it more similar to any letter
20:34:29 <wob_jonas> but you have to write a proper descender, or else it would look like a b
20:34:46 <wob_jonas> I write very ugly though in practice, breaking all the rules and using my own crazy stule
20:36:37 <wob_jonas> I'll get back and actually watch the video to the end. I'll be interested in the rarer latters and if you manage to show how they connec5t
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21:20:03 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I should try to make images or something => definitely :)
21:20:29 <arseniiv> I’ve seen some Latin cursive here and there, but I lack a more systematic knowledge
21:26:44 <HackEso> smlist 477: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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