00:15:58 "This is perhaps not the answer you are looking for, but it is indeed a programming language (it is Turing complete)" 00:16:24 I think Turing completeness is neither sufficient or necessary for something to be a programming language. 00:24:05 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:26:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:05:01 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:23:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SULFUROUS CHICKEN). 02:32:37 Are .sid files turing complete? I think they may be turing complete 02:40:29 They do contain 6502 machine code. I should totally make an infinite length one 02:41:32 Machine code is usually not TC. 02:46:21 Though, by the same line of reasoning nor is C. 02:46:53 Just an FSM with a fairly large state. 02:49:15 -!- AlwaysHigh18 has joined. 02:49:51 Right. 02:51:53 Not that it helps you much. Sufficiently large state makes things like a halting predicate practically infeasible even if they are theoretically permissible. 02:52:39 -!- AlwaysHigh18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:53 I was wondering recently how much of the algorithmic reasoning people do doesn't really make sense in the presence of even a large upper bound. 03:19:57 I wonder if 6510 machine code could be considered turing complete if you put assumptions on what address 0 and 1 do (e.g. maybe you could send a signal to switch RAM out in a tape-like fashion) 03:20:09 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 03:20:32 Or 6502 + special address in memory for shenanigans like that 03:29:27 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:40:39 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 03:58:30 it's not too difficult to extend the 6502 to arbitrary bit-lengths, I think 03:58:51 well, might get silly after a bit, but I've worked with a 24-bit version a bit 04:06:20 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:17:35 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 04:17:35 -!- rdococ has joined. 04:18:11 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:18:26 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 04:21:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:30:04 -!- irc-5225225 has joined. 04:32:00 -!- irc-5225225 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:54:51 -!- Shragazord has joined. 05:56:43 Taneb: sounds interesting 06:03:59 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:17:05 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:22:04 Minima.sid by Wyndex seems to play forever 06:22:31 STIL gives a shorter duration though. If someone were to make a song that infinitely varies.. hmm 06:23:58 (STIL = text file describing all the music in HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection)) 06:28:24 Oh huh STIL isnt where players get song lenght, there's a Songlengths.txt 06:37:15 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 06:41:35 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:51:17 -!- irrationalist has joined. 07:12:15 -!- irrationalist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:19:20 -!- d1b26 has joined. 07:22:58 -!- d1b26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:29:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:34:43 -!- fractal1 has joined. 07:35:13 -!- fractal1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:08:17 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:09:41 -!- atslash has joined. 08:11:51 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:13:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:17:42 -!- hsr93 has joined. 08:18:31 -!- hsr93 has quit (Client Quit). 08:19:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:25:40 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 08:30:12 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:30:13 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:30:18 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:32:40 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:32:40 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:34:17 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:34:17 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:35:31 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:35:31 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:36:30 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:36:30 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:37:43 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:37:43 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:39:09 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:39:09 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:40:02 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:40:03 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:43:03 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:43:03 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:48:44 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:48:44 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:49:39 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:49:39 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:50:24 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:50:24 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:51:14 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:51:14 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:52:04 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:52:05 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:54:30 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:54:31 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:55:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:55:53 -!- atslash has joined. 10:13:57 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 10:18:27 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:50:21 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:51:31 -!- Shragazord has joined. 11:19:26 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:02:21 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 12:04:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:06:54 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:22:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:40:35 -!- xa0 has joined. 12:40:36 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 12:45:14 -!- xa0 has joined. 12:45:36 I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal <-- now you're reminding me of when _i_ was about twelve... 12:46:03 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57416&oldid=57351 * YamTokWae * (+56) 12:46:16 oerjan: the difference, I expect, is I have a full time job 12:46:22 and my dad brought home a printer with modem and phoned a mainframe 12:46:43 So I can afford all the receipt printer rolls I want 12:46:51 OKAY 12:46:56 Anyway continue your story 12:47:24 I thought you were going to go somewhere different when I started writing my result 12:47:29 hm my father used to bring home used scrolls of printing paper for me to write on 12:48:44 this was a printer normally used for logging events at the telecom building 12:48:55 well they had several of them, iirc 12:49:27 anyway, he phoned it up and we tried out Sintran BASIC 12:50:12 and this was only about the second time i'd used a computer, the first time was when on holiday and someone had an Apple something. 12:50:28 back in approximately 1982 12:51:04 i'd already learned BASIC from reading a book 12:51:12 well, some BASIC. 12:52:46 i think i wrote some programs on that scratch paper, without a computer :) 12:53:04 complex arithmetic iirc 12:53:30 end of story, i guess 12:54:09 :) 12:54:33 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:54:37 he got 7000 stars for implementing certificate delivery in BASH https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh 13:03:50 rain1: Hi! 13:03:56 hi 13:04:25 * int-e is still appalled by that repo 13:04:39 i think it counts as esoprogramming 13:05:45 full of gems like... if [ -f "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" ]; then . "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" fi 13:05:58 (aka configuration file parsing in bash) 13:10:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 13:12:30 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:25:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:30:48 -!- G33kDude has joined. 13:32:09 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57417&oldid=57416 * YamTokWae * (+1883) Finally done! 13:34:35 [[Pxem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+6245) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Pxem |paradigms= |author= |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class= |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence= |in..." 13:35:40 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57419&oldid=57398 * YamTokWae * (+11) /* P */ Pxem added! 13:39:26 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:42:23 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:44:15 Asimov, or whoever was the editor of the short story "Mother Earth", has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian": "https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v43n03_1949-05_cape1736#page/n58/mode/1up" . Don't you just love the English language and its uniformity? 13:45:35 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57420&oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+496) 13:50:39 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 13:55:20 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:59:53 -!- ep100 has joined. 13:59:55 someone reads Tom Siddel’s GC here? 14:00:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:05:11 has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian"> interesting. Could it be the case it was pronounced as a[nɪ]storian by him? I seem to hear [h] elides here and there in some cases 14:06:55 arseniiv: there's a very varied amount of initial h-dropping in various English dialect. I've asked about it previously in #esoteric, and some people pronounce initial h in every word, some drop it in lot of words. 14:11:57 I only drop English initial h in "hour, honest, honesty, honored, honorable" and possibly in "herb, heir, heirloom" (I'm undecided about those rare words) 14:13:37 -!- nkuttler28 has joined. 14:15:50 -!- nkuttler28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:21:37 I pronounce the h in herb but not in heir or heirloom 14:21:43 But then again I pronounce the b in debt 14:23:59 debt to all traitors 14:25:50 Taneb: how about all the other h words? "have, he, his, her, here, how, hand, happen, head, hear, hear, help, high, hold, home, house, half, happy, hard, health, heart, hey, himself, history, hit, hope, hour, however, human, hair, handle, hang, hate, heat, heavy, hell, herself, hi, hide, hospital, hot, hotel, huge, hundred, hurt, husband", 14:27:02 is that an exhaustive list of h words? 14:27:21 "hall, hardly, healthy, hello, hill, hire, historical, hole, holyday, honest, honey, honor, horse, host, housing, huh, hunt", and most importantly, the original example "historian" 14:27:30 wob_jonas: hour is the only one in that first list 14:27:46 honest, honor in the second list 14:27:53 I pronouce the h in historian 14:28:09 (In particular I would say "she is a historian", not "she is an historian") 14:29:01 But it used to be the rule at "an" went before a word beginning with "h" in all cases 14:29:52 further, "ha, habit, harm, hat, heal, heaven, height, helping, hero, highlight, highway, hip, historic, holy, hook, horrible, household, hug, hungry", 14:29:58 (for reference I'm a native speaker from the north-east of England with one Australian parent) 14:30:15 wob_jonas: none of those do I drop the h 14:31:31 and now we're getting the uncommon ones: "habitat, halfway, hallway, halt, hammer, handsome, harbor, hardware, harmony, harsh, harvest, haul, haunt, headache, headline, headquarter, healthcare, heel, helicopter, helmet, hence, herb, herd, heritage, hesitate, hike, hint, Hispanic, holder, homeland, homework, hop, horizon, hormone, horn, horror, host 14:31:31 age, hostile, humanity, humor, hunter, hurricane, hypothesis" 14:32:45 I'm actually unsure about "heritage" too 14:33:48 Taneb: right. much of my pronunciation comes from the times when outside of English-speaking countries, language courses teached received pronunciation. 14:34:16 I pronounce the h in all of that last list as well 14:34:40 wob_jonas: I don't think of myself having much of a dialect and then I realise that I really do 14:35:08 I just hear enough not-English people that a lot of English accents sound quite similar to me 14:35:20 Taneb: with which vowel do you pronounce "can't dance"? 14:36:52 I don't know the IPA, but a long a, almost "ar" for "can't", and a short a for "dance" 14:37:38 -!- andrew_ has joined. 14:37:47 -!- andrew_ has quit (Client Quit). 14:38:13 If you remind me about nine tonight BST, I'll send you a recording 14:38:19 (going to the cinema after work) 14:38:19 -!- andymclaren has joined. 14:38:43 -!- andymclaren has quit (Client Quit). 14:39:26 Taneb: do you pronounce them with the first vowel of "father", or the vowl of "cat", or neither? 14:40:17 can't and father are similar 14:40:29 cat and dance are very slightly different? 14:40:32 recording doesn't help much alone, because it's only all the vowels in relation that are important, not the individual realziations 14:40:59 strange. 14:41:02 `? can't 14:41:03 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast 14:41:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:41:10 I think I kind of cut the vowel short in dance but not in cat? 14:42:04 that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English 14:42:17 must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 14:44:11 (Sorry, I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's popsci book, and he makes it like God created the earliest particles, then someone else who sounds like Morgoth created the Higgs-boson in an attempt to ruin the perfect symmetry of God's creation, 14:45:25 but then when God asked Morgoth why he did that, Morgoth lied that he only did it to make the world richer, and God knew that while Morgoth thinks it's a lie, it's actually true, because Morgoth could do nothing that He didn't already anticipate, and the Higgs boson actually makes the world complicated but beautiful in a way that nobody but God him 14:45:25 self foresaw, 14:45:39 and that's how the stars and physicists were born.) 14:45:59 Naturally 14:47:32 (So now if the physicists are working hard enough to defeat the Higgs-boson, then they will see it, and God lets them see it and the original simple beauty behind it too and how the two together allowed to make nucleuses and stars and physicists to get created.) 14:53:29 (Some of that is what I'm imagining into the book though, not what Lenderman actually wrote.) 15:26:08 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 15:29:17 is that an exhaustive list of h words? => lol 15:30:19 it's actually a representative list from a reputable source 15:30:32 filtered through my noise 15:31:43 -!- piklu18 has joined. 15:34:10 wob_jonas: that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English // must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism => IMO it should go to the quotes :D 15:34:27 `? wisdom 15:34:28 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 15:35:33 have any of you used the Java/Scala parsing library Parboiled? any thoughts? 15:35:46 `? quote 15:35:47 Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb. 15:36:00 `? qdb 15:36:02 qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat 15:36:10 -!- piklu18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:36:39 `? addquote 15:36:40 addquote ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:36:45 wah 15:38:42 `? quoteformat 15:38:43 quoteformat is: message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two. 15:39:28 oerjan: I'm not here, and I can't be trusted with HackEso anyway, but if you're still here and could guide arseniiv in using HackEso, that would be great 15:39:57 arseniiv: basically you can just say `addquote message message 15:40:16 but make sure the quote is worthy to keep without context, or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context 15:40:44 it's an art rather than a science, and I'm not very good at it, although there are some quotes I added, and some I said 15:40:50 `addquote that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:40:52 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:41:06 wob_jonas: I hope I made it right and worthy :) 15:41:27 I do believe quoting is an art, too, yeah 15:42:35 `ping 15:42:36 pong 15:43:22 oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate? 15:43:26 ``` cat bin/allquotes 15:43:27 ​#!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes 15:44:14 or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context => totally agree. I have seen many quotes in the wild, which were concluded by an author’s reaction. It’s weird and uncomfortable 15:45:43 wob_jonas: ftr HackEso responds me to "`quote" 15:45:54 ``` hg log -T "desc\000" quotes 15:45:56 desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc. 15:46:05 and pongs too 15:46:18 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\000" quotes 15:46:19 11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism.11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter.11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft.11580 addquote 15:46:36 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | perl -we "" 15:46:37 No output. 15:46:41 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:46:42 11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580 ad 15:47:22 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" 15:47:23 No output. 15:47:35 what? 15:47:43 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" 15:47:44 No output. 15:47:49 ah right 15:47:58 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" 15:47:59 11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11551 addquote Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old shachaf, not at all I would never suggest that it\'s getting slightly old \ 11346 15:48:06 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" 15:48:08 11439 addquote oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we\'ll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes \ 10204 addquote basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI \ 9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually u 15:48:30 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:48:42 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+3 15:48:43 9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9236 addquote hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps \ 9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 15:49:12 HackEso not trusting me enough to respond in private message is probably a feature, not a bug 15:49:58 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+5 15:49:59 9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 15:50:11 after that was when they taught me about `? quoteformat 15:50:32 ``` hg log -c 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:50:33 hg log: option -c not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options ([+] can be repeated): \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies show copied files \ -k --keyword TEXT [+] do case-insensitive search for a given text 15:50:57 ``` hg log -r 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:50:58 9235 delquote 1291 15:51:07 sorry, -c would be the correct option for svn 15:53:38 `quote L3 norm 15:53:38 1295) please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways) 15:53:52 `quote _jonas 15:53:52 1200) oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original \ 1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o 15:54:18 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+2 15:54:19 1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic \ 1269) (make is an esoteric language) b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make \ 1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping 15:55:02 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+5 15:55:03 1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. \ 1318) b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth \ 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 15:55:16 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+7 15:55:17 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:56:02 I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? 15:56:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:56:24 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:57:13 1318 wut?? 15:58:25 I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? => maybe not 16:02:44 (I mean it could be incomparable to both) 16:08:29 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 16:08:46 -!- bradcomp has joined. 16:20:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:42:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:45:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:08:22 suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts (I'm thinking of making a conlang-inspired esolang and there are good reasons for it to need an alphabet of its own) 17:08:54 what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays 17:09:24 presumably the characters would be in a private-use area somewher? 17:09:26 *somewhere 17:16:32 Can you maybe just fork an Open Source font to get a template, and then just completely rework the typeface to be what you want? 17:17:21 I'm not sure 17:17:30 the characters in this are intentionally very simple and line-segmenty, though 17:17:34 so I think I'd want something much simpler than most fonts 17:17:46 So that might be overkill 17:17:53 a simple vector font would likely be enough, no hinting (perhaps it'd benefit from some kerning) 17:19:03 ais523: for font creation I suppose you could use something like glyphr studio, last time I seen it was JS-based HTML thingie and it was able to export to some of usual font formats 17:19:22 I have it installed but I haven’t played with it 17:19:37 it uses Unicode as an encoding 17:19:55 hmm, "JS-based HTML thingie" seems fairly discouraging, but I guess it might be usable 17:19:59 arseniiv that looks really cool! 17:20:16 ais523: bradcomp: it should be able to do kerning AFAIR 17:20:50 also Inkscape can create SVG fonts but I think its UI for it is way messier 17:22:17 "up to U+FFFF", ugh, that could be a bit of a problem; the private use area is getting fairly crowded already 17:22:55 I don't even know which bits won't clash with other peoples' little-used languages 17:25:03 why not make a standard latinization of your conlang and use characters from that to represent characters of an actual conscript in the font? Ligatures should make for conscript’s interesting traits like custom diactiric behavior, vowel carriers and like 17:25:25 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:25 -!- brandonson has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:25 -!- \oren\ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- puck has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- erdic has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:27 -!- joast has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:30 -!- clog_ has joined. 17:25:30 -!- brandons1n has joined. 17:25:42 -!- erdic has joined. 17:26:04 -!- erdic has quit (Changing host). 17:26:04 -!- erdic has joined. 17:26:18 then if one uses this special font, it looks nice, and if one uses an unaware font, it is magically a transcription 17:27:13 arseniiv: well one feature of this is that it doesn't really correspond to English in any real way 17:27:26 it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet, come to think of it, although it's not quite the same as that either 17:27:54 I guess I could replace characters from an /actual/ syllabary, assuming it was large enough 17:32:45 you could use font ligatures to make e. g. gu gi ga gen ger tu ti ta correspond to separate glyphs than glyphs for g, t, u, i etc. 17:32:55 right 17:33:18 I hope ligaturing in fonts is advanced enough 17:33:30 didn’t investigate 17:33:53 anyway good luck! 17:34:52 I can't work on it right now 17:35:02 -!- joast has joined. 17:35:05 I wasn't considering a pronunciation for it up to this point 17:35:09 although I guess having one might be useful 17:35:20 the original concept was entirely as a written language 17:35:24 you might as well try to pronounce brainfuck 17:35:46 hmm, there surely must be a brainfuck derivative intended to be pronounceable, there's a brainfuck derivative for basically everything 17:41:56 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 17:41:56 -!- sparr has joined. 17:43:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:45:43 ais523: the original concept was entirely as a written language => ah I see. If there would be less than ~30 glyphs, it could have been passed for a consonantal alphabet, but as you’ve said it’s meant to be a syllabary, then it probably has much more 17:46:01 well, it's a sort of compositional syllabary 17:46:23 each character has two components that are orthogonal to each other 17:46:33 treating it as a spoken language, I guess you'd interpret that as consonant/vowel 17:47:19 something like abugida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida then 17:47:47 yes, I think an abugida is the right term 17:55:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:09:10 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:25:47 -!- alercah has left. 18:34:44 -!- oren has joined. 18:37:28 -!- oren has quit (Client Quit). 18:39:06 -!- brandons1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:16 -!- \oren\ has joined. 18:41:55 -!- Effilry has joined. 18:42:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:43:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:43:55 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 18:44:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 18:44:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:44:38 -!- \oren\ has quit (Client Quit). 18:44:42 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:45:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:50:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:29:46 -!- jusWindTwo has joined. 19:30:26 -!- jusWindTwo has left. 19:46:02 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:56 -!- brandonson has joined. 19:54:02 -!- Toppogiggio has joined. 20:26:15 -!- puckipedia has joined. 20:46:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:48:36 -!- imode has joined. 20:50:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:53:20 -!- oren has joined. 20:53:31 why is freenode so buggy lately 20:53:50 ? 20:54:29 int-e: today SASL was timing out every time for several hours 20:54:43 they're probably making a lot of code changes while trying to fend off the spambot attack 20:54:48 "We are experiencing issues with services and SASL. If you can't connect, try to temporarily disable SASL" 20:55:00 oren: that's from the topic in #freenode *shrugs* 20:56:01 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\. 20:56:59 <\oren\> int-e: you can't connect from AWS to freenode without SASL tho 20:58:12 I see 21:01:30 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:17:27 -!- MDead has joined. 21:21:19 -!- MDude has joined. 21:22:27 -!- MDead has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:24:04 -!- puckipedia has changed nick to puck. 21:28:06 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:39:22 -!- MDude has joined. 21:47:26 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:53:31 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:53:55 hi ais523! 21:53:59 good to see you. let me read the log 21:54:48 guess what, arseniiv added me into the hackeso quotesdb. he's growing up to become a full #esoteric regular, and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be. 21:54:56 `datei 21:54:57 2018-08-22 21:54:56.893904170+00:00 21:55:49 oh good. in the afternoon, for some reason hackeso wouldn't reply to my private messages. I decided it was a feature, because I can't be trusted. but now he does answer private messages 21:57:07 "suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts" => you should look at http://www.omniglot.com/ , and the "Constructed scripts" heading in particular. admittedly, that's a rather biased personal selection by the omniglot website maintainer, but still. 21:57:13 conlangers sometimes do that. 21:57:50 I have two completely undocumented alphabets I have created, and some attempts to map writing Hungarian or English into them. 21:58:20 "what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays" => paper and pencil at first. the font part is difficult indeed. 22:01:06 "it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet" => oh yes, there are a few of those too. like the set of 306 syllable symbols in https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1986 , with no writing system for any language mapping to it yet. 22:03:09 the constructed alphabets are created are more intended to be used as traditional alphabets, not sylabillaries, although one of them also has an extended version that could be used for some APL-like notation with over 256 possible symbols combined from a somewhat simple traditional system of backspacing and overprinting one of the few modifiers ont 22:03:09 o a symbol. 22:05:10 Basically I have a set of 30 base letters, with a canon assignment of 26 of them to the 26 ascii letters for when you want a strict transliteration, but you don't have to do that, you can use other writing systems more suitable for specific languages, 22:05:13 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:05:33 -!- Toppogiggio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:06:36 then 6 additional modifiers (diacritics: dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, long horizontal bar in the middle, vertical bar) that you each can overprint to each base letter, although to make it look nice you have to shift them a bit depending on which letter you put them onto; 22:08:11 then I also have 16 digits, with a canonical assignment to the hexadecimal digits, but which you can also combine with one of the five allowed modifiers (dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, vertical bar; but NOT horizontal bar) to get extra symbols for maths or programming or even writing; 22:08:47 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:09:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:09:56 plus also space (which is just the ascii "halfwidth" space used in latin script); plus 16 punctuation symbols, each of which you can combine with one of the six modifiers, but some combinations are banned because they'd either look ambiguous or very ugly; and possibly a few extra symbols that I've been experimenting with to perturb the system but t 22:09:56 hat probably shouldn't exist. 22:11:30 The 16 punctuation symbols are: period, comma, left round parenthesis, right round parenthesis, less than, greater than, vee, wedge, minus, vertical bar, slash, backslash, equals, plus, cross, eight-pointed star (a plus and a cross overlaid with their centers exactly at the same place). 22:12:20 vertical bar with the vertical bar modifier is one of the banned combinations, dot with the dot above modifier is an allowed combination and is basically a colon, comma with dot above is basically a semicolon, 22:12:58 one of dot with middle bar modifier and minus with dot under must be a banned combination, but I haven't completely fixed the list of banned combinations, although I do have some draft versions of it. 22:15:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:16:41 This is one of the two scripts I'm trying to invent. The other is much simpler, with only 32 symbols of which 16 are base letters and 16 have variable use, plus some modifiers that are used only as shorthand, plus a writing system for Hungarian. 22:16:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:17:05 The big one actually stole the set of digits from the 16 base letters of the other. 22:17:51 I haven't fixed a canonical alphabetic order for any of them yet, except obviously for the 16 digits in the bigger script. 22:22:21 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 22:22:50 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:22:59 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:43:53 wob_jonas: and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be => nope, it’s too complex :o 22:44:32 arseniiv: that's not why I can't be trusted 22:47:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:50:44 -!- Shragazord has joined. 22:52:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:53:40 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:05:45 -!- sftp has joined. 23:10:33 wob_jonas: hm 23:11:17 well anyway I’m not going to dive in its self-editing capabilities 23:11:54 or hopefully there’s a backup somewhere 23:13:26 It's on top of a (D)VCS, it's easy to revert to a previous state. 23:13:42 (Except for the /hackenv/tmp directory.) 23:14:26 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ 23:14:42 yeah, generally. there are some practical difficulties, but they rarely come up. 23:15:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:16:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:32:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:33:40 ais523: here's a quickly scribbled explanation of the conscripts I'm trying to create: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tv6YC.png 23:34:45 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:34:45 -!- sleffy has quit (Client Quit). 23:35:02 hmm 23:35:14 I guess what I'm doing is basically what APL did 23:35:52 ais523: um, have you read my previous messages on the channel by the way? 23:35:59 I mean, during while you were apparently joined 23:36:09 wob_jonas: yes, just didn't have much to say 23:36:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:25 ok 23:36:30 I guess you created the alphabet first and then tried to find a use for it 23:36:31 ? 23:37:36 ais523: I think I created the 5-segment display and digits first, then extended it to hex digits, and drew it in the parenthesis style I used in the bottom, then created the Hungarian writing system for it; 23:38:29 then later I tried to create some other conscript that failed, and then I tried to create the alphabet that would eventually become the base alphabet on the top, only it was larger and more complicated, 23:39:26 and then I added the digits and the punctuation, but because of the parens in the punctutation, I decided to change the shape of the 1 and C digits to C-shaped, and some time in the meanwhile I experimented with systems of diacritics and eventually came up with this one, 23:39:53 and decided that since it's more than 256 symbols, and has lots of modified letters and modified punctuation, it's usable enough for an APL 23:40:47 well, for an APL you really want the symbols to match what the command does more or less exactly 23:41:04 that's why you need to create new ones if you're adding new commands 23:41:11 J uses two common diacritics on both lower and uppercase ascii letters and ascii punctuation and ascii digits, but since I don't have uppercase digits and have half the number of punctuation, but have it balanced by more diacritics, the symbol set looks APL-like enough for me 23:41:34 Should macros be syntactically distinct from regular function calls? 23:41:49 What's a good way to make the distinction? Rust uses ! but that seems too noisy to me. 23:41:55 sort of... but after a while the symbol set for APL more or less froze, and 23:41:59 shachaf: IMO it depends on whether the macro can do things a regular function call can't 23:42:13 Well, that's why it's a macro, right? 23:42:28 C uses allcaps for macros (as a convention), which brings the point across quite well… /except/ that it uses lowercase, as with regular functions, if the macro isn't doing anything weird that you need to pay attention to 23:42:41 shachaf: "." instead "!" ? 23:42:45 Allcaps also seems too noisy to me. 23:42:51 a macro should look like a control flow construct, really 23:42:52 Imagine IF, WHILE, etc. as macros. 23:43:22 if you have a Perl-like syntax, something like barewords (no sigil) for macros, leading & for functions, would be consistent with the rest of the language 23:43:31 but Perl dropped that, despite the inconsistency, probably because it was too noisy 23:43:55 perhaps the rule should be something like "macros use parens around their arguments, functions don't" 23:44:04 Another question: Is there a language that distinguishes lvalues from rvalues explicitly rather than automatically allowing lvalues in rvalue context? 23:44:11 Would that be too noisy? 23:44:33 ais523: Hm, maybe. 23:44:33 shachaf: most mathematical formalisations of language do, and the syntax has leaked into some of them, such as OCaml 23:44:40 usual syntax is ! for lvalue-to-rvalue conversion 23:44:49 Right, SML or OCaml or something has refs which are similar. 23:44:54 so to increment x in OCaml, you write «x := !x + 1» 23:45:02 But I'm imagining a C-like language where I think it would be noisier in general? 23:45:12 only because you mutate more in general 23:45:27 Right. 23:45:34 well... ruby has a strange idea of lvalues. it mostly doesn't have them, instead it has indexed-assignment and method-assignment as ordinary methods with funny names, and like ten special case syntaxes that assign to different variables 23:45:40 Algol's weird in that it has a very fixed distinction between lvalues and rvalues but conversions like lvalue-to-rvalue and pointer dereferencing are implicit, guided by the type system 23:45:47 Maybe C's * operator is already similar to this. 23:46:03 compared to perl, which has real lvalues. 23:46:12 or C++, which also has real lvalues 23:46:13 C's & operator is an abberation caused by the fact that * is normally implicit 23:46:21 except on the LHS of an assignment 23:46:27 so you need an & to turn it off 23:46:31 I'm undecided about references in C++. 23:46:37 "int &x = y;" doesn't seem that great. 23:46:52 But "int &operator[](...)" seems OK? 23:47:15 Maybe I'm OK with functions returning references but not taking them as arguments. 23:47:54 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:57 shachaf: in Algol, /all/ "variable names" are constants; thus "int ref x = y" would create a constant integer reference x pointing to the same thing as the constant integer reference y 23:48:05 sorry, it's too late and I have to sleep, but we can discuss that some time later. I like C++, including the references part, but it's complicated to explain why. 23:48:32 but I also don't think that every language necessarily needs lvalues. 23:48:39 you can have a fine language without lvalues. 23:48:59 whereas "int x := y" is shorthand for "int ref x = «whatever the syntax for allocating memory is in Algol; I've forgotten»; x := y", which creates a constant integer reference x pointing to new memory, then copies the value pointed to by y into it 23:49:24 Is that stack-allocated memory or something similar? 23:49:57 ais523: that sounds scary 23:50:30 shachaf: I think there's different syntax for stack and heap allocation 23:50:50 oh, it's "loc int" for allocating int-sized memory on the stack, I just remembered the syntax 23:53:09 anyway, the shorthand is very convenient (and probably inspired C's declaration syntax), but unlike the rest of the language, really hides what's going on 23:54:04 ais523: you mean auto declarations in C? 23:54:15 yes 23:54:17 The kinds of macros I'm talking about take not just their "arguments" but also the rest of the block. 23:54:38 shachaf: like the ? we were discussing earlier? 23:54:44 as opposed to global variable declarations or definitions 23:54:47 Which ? is that? 23:54:52 Oh, your monadish thing. 23:54:54 right 23:55:06 I think what I have in mind is a bit more syntactic but I'm actually not sure. 23:55:19 I'd like to make it less macro-y but I don't know how doable that is. 23:55:37 You remember, this is for the language idea where all the control flow constructs work like this. 23:55:43 { if(p); ... } and so on. 23:55:45 right 23:56:01 there definitely seems to be a connection between control flow constructs and macros 23:56:12 I'd like these to be as expression-like as possible, though. 23:56:26 Maybe something like { x := for(for(a)); ... } can make sense for a nested loop. 23:56:42 (Which would mean { y := for(a); x := for(y); ... } 23:56:57 In this sense what they really take as an argument is more like a continuation. 23:57:21 maybe what we want is syntax for making a continuation out of the rest of the block 23:57:39 { x := f(for(a), for(b)); ... }? 23:57:48 which probably implies a parens-not-required syntax for function calls 23:57:56 This would impose an evaluation order probably. Which monads etc. need to do anyway. 23:58:03 and "rest of the block" would be defined in terms of evaluation orders, so your for(a), for(b) would work just fine 23:58:15 you do need an explicit evaluation order, as your last example shows 23:58:26 (which could be "unspecified" but probably shouldn't be) 23:58:29 Right. 23:58:37 This is all very SSA-y. 23:58:42 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:59:27 aren't continuations just the control flow version of SSA? 23:59:34 They're very similar at least. 23:59:49 well yes, my last statement is probably an overstatement but there seems to be something of a connection 23:59:59 Yes, there's clearly a connection.