< 1535932941 274261 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535932982 411806 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-etbfyxdgktmspled QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535932982 713841 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-wgetguyphsjseuze QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1535932995 368944 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-svugxxdecqhjbuyc JOIN :#esoteric < 1535932996 379532 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-goieoniqdsbgmciq JOIN :#esoteric < 1535933066 128865 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-svugxxdecqhjbuyc QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535933066 256489 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-goieoniqdsbgmciq QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1535933130 572931 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Esoteric File Archive14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57509&oldid=42081 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+87) 10I made a mirror! Table to hold it and any future mirrors. < 1535933194 222267 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1535933296 530045 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fokflwrwzcnhkopw JOIN :#esoteric > 1535933315 403788 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Blacksilver14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57510 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+83) 10Does the IRC hook ignore User pages? < 1535933322 269508 :Blacksilver!ae8ad0b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.138.208.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it does < 1535933509 83926 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqdzblncyoomespr JOIN :#esoteric < 1535933596 709882 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-zojazydantmrlcie JOIN :#esoteric < 1535933874 486767 :Blacksilver!ae8ad0b8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.138.208.184 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1535933893 232285 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535934181 628276 :wob_jonas!b03f1946@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.70 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1535934368 675265 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blacksilver: I’m quite new here and I haven’t used that archive so I can’t properly appreciate what you did, but as the channel is still right now, someone should say probably this is great! < 1535934446 341064 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :5-minute virtualhost setup on an existing Apache VM. It's nothing. < 1535934490 150172 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if we can get the esofiles stored in one of those nuke-hardened bunkers in Switzerland... < 1535934518 538217 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Companies use them as data vaults. < 1535934699 79036 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :More related: I'm trying to do code golf in EXAPUNKS. < 1535934727 891007 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that qualifies as Esoteric. < 1535935695 630751 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"esopunks" < 1535935905 965808 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1535937878 300558 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1535938328 244241 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1535939154 937855 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535939951 790509 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that in SQLite, the xBegin method is not called (even though a transaction has started) if a CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE statement is executed. If you are connecting to an existing virtual table then xBegin is called when a transaction with that virtual table is started. < 1535942356 137607 :XorSwap_!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return. < 1535945485 657006 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqdzblncyoomespr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1535945515 516138 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535947321 414951 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1535947804 278083 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535948111 948035 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to make a phonetic writing that is not limited to human physiology and maybe not even limited to a possible kind? < 1535951087 345234 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1535951208 931730 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kilvyqqbzzaepytc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1535951963 850445 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535952252 709274 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1535954168 256446 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535955516 895872 :mynery!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PART :#esoteric < 1535955549 730772 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535955865 280569 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535956153 272534 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1535958411 366757 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535958690 430605 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535958752 275749 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1535959250 742328 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535959380 277826 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535960010 754803 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535962253 372005 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1535963766 483202 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-zojazydantmrlcie QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535963766 621840 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fokflwrwzcnhkopw QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535963780 406064 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-anwdpbtujkoimwgi JOIN :#esoteric < 1535963809 820410 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-rcoidhemutxirftc JOIN :#esoteric < 1535964195 868567 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535964274 632799 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-rcoidhemutxirftc QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535964274 779078 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-anwdpbtujkoimwgi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535964274 835785 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1535964287 440363 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-trgniwbqvscsadvz JOIN :#esoteric < 1535964288 334362 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-xbmfxnvsganidkjr JOIN :#esoteric < 1535964332 699309 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-xbmfxnvsganidkjr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535964467 515898 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-trgniwbqvscsadvz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535964588 49107 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-tfafzwpntqramfwq JOIN :#esoteric < 1535964888 314249 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-mltwarkkbdgnhbsc JOIN :#esoteric < 1535966451 137348 :vans12!~vans@91.243.207.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535966492 18083 :vans12!~vans@91.243.207.211 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535972497 703835 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535973259 473633 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I no longer even constantly feel a nagging sensation that there's a wound in my mouth, but there's still a wound, so now I want to eat meals and want to chew it on both sides, but have to constantly spend conscious effort to only chew in the right hand side of my mouth and don't let food touch the wound. < 1535973347 903099 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds frustrating < 1535973373 206636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there's an annoying fishing line knot in my mouth that I keep constantly feeling, but I must resist my reflex to try to move it with the inside of my cheek or my tongue. And I can't even use a chewing gum to redirect my mouth movements, because that would be worse, then I'd have to make sure to only chew the chewing gum on the right hand side < 1535973373 327761 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : of my mouth. < 1535973573 469644 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible that I might not wait the two weeks (starting from Friday which was the day of the operation) for my next visit to the dentist (she's not just a dentist, but I can't type maxillofacial surgeon) to remove the stitch, but ask my brother to remove it early next week, for by that time the wound will have healed enough that the stitch is n < 1535973573 610897 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o longer necessary. < 1535974300 785276 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that sounds like how sqlite delays opening the file that backs up the database to as late as possible, in order that certain pragmas can take effect. This was especially important back when they didn't have the crazy URL syntax to open files with options, but IMO the url syntax is a mistake and options should be provided with pragmas anyway. < 1535974560 55222 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's possible that this is because the CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE statements are stored in the database schema, and when the schema is parsed, there might be an interdependence between the virtual tables, so it's worth to delay virtual tables to as late as possible. < 1535975007 369871 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-109-64-13-89.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535976767 367283 :A_D9!~A_D@94.181.170.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535976812 304299 :A_D9!~A_D@94.181.170.37 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535977928 21570 :cats23!~cats@121-83-4-150f1.hyg2.eonet.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1535977962 685991 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1535977972 492946 :cats23!~cats@121-83-4-150f1.hyg2.eonet.ne.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535978067 669620 :wodencafe4!~wodencafe@p1868248-ipngn201110fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1535978128 809866 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2663524/sorted-sort-of/ < 1535978129 863285 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found < 1535978241 246813 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86CD60.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1535978358 798117 :wodencafe4!~wodencafe@p1868248-ipngn201110fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535978365 775359 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535980275 694050 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1535983106 267974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535983322 303661 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-tfafzwpntqramfwq QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1535983331 149869 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ngydvevayauwfsqk JOIN :#esoteric < 1535983564 256381 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1535983825 515255 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535984106 492595 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all options could use pragmas; ATTACH opens the database and reports any errors immediately, so the VFS to use (and any VFS options needed at time to open) needs to be specified in the ATTACH command. Still some options for the VFS that can be changed after it is opened, can be specified by pragmas (a VFS can only override pragmas after the file is open, anyways). < 1535984419 250617 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: wait, why does ATTACH do that? the semantics rule is that a bare table/view name without an attach name before it refers to the table in the earliest database, so a new ATTACH can't cause to reinterpret statements that were already working. < 1535984593 62562 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why, but I have tried it. < 1535984621 224229 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in any case, there are a few things you can only do by opening something as the primary database (namely setting the directory for the master journal for cross-database atomic commits) and I think there are some global settings that you may have set before you act on any database < 1535984693 361757 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, the VFS can only implement pragmas if the file is open. < 1535984940 257723 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the URL syntax is a mistake, but then other syntax may be needed to specify what VFS to use for a attached database < 1535985486 591815 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: technically you could implement global pragmas from a VFS wrapper to set the default options for the next databases to be opened, but that's not a very good idea for a VFS to do < 1535985549 719583 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but the VFS layer could define a pragma to tell which VFS to activate for opening a file < 1535985589 414573 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1535985595 842188 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how all this should work. < 1535985763 661653 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-seocwxoxbyxvpsxr JOIN :#esoteric < 1535985986 832285 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know either, but for compatibility it can be kept how it is. < 1535987006 58217 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1535987616 943345 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: How to make a phonetic writing that is not limited to human physiology and maybe not even limited to a possible kind? => seems too unconstrained a task < 1535987658 509843 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-human-like alien phonetics could be almost anything, I think < 1535987672 110270 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :with any system < 1535987750 157653 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could try to do something with acoustic side of phonetics, not with articulatory one — at least acoustics is common to us all < 1535987790 447550 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :…if the language is an acoustic one < 1535987851 252498 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also there are still variables like audible frequency range < 1535987927 812768 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but many contemporary human phonetic writing systems are based more on articulation and less on acoustics < 1535987963 292299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e. g. IPA) < 1535988277 103702 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it is still with sounds, at least < 1535989089 638020 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, also we can try to enumerate various ways in which sound can be produced, and especially inside the specified alien < 1535989341 442397 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we could envision their articulatory system and finally go the way out phonetics gone — investigate what can and can’t combine with what and get something IPA-like (but IPA is far from completely describing our articulatory abilities, it focuses mainly on those used in known languages, and there is an extension to IPA adding something about “speech impairment”, as they say it) < 1535989369 576928 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way is not generic, obviously, though < 1535989414 101172 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet one can’t systematize all the possible results in a humane fashion < 1535989429 859433 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have the grid of sounds and not all of the combinations are filled in. < 1535989604 271062 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535989714 112524 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-133-49-189.range86-133.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535989836 825366 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-133-49-189.range86-133.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, has anyone got a copy of the paper "Is it alive, or is it GA?" by Thomas Ray? I can't find a copy online :-( < 1535989906 861373 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have it < 1535990095 278977 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1535990508 153645 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-137-99.cdrr.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1535990547 494518 :MDude!~MDude@97-127-137-99.cdrr.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535990989 267976 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: They have the grid of sounds and not all of the combinations are filled in. => ah, this should be not hard then < 1535991131 859344 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :let that grid have N dimensions, then you could assemble each glyph from N parts. Then you could mutate these glyphs, for example when some parts occur together, they can be drawn in other way; etc. etc.? < 1535991172 669173 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I have considered that actually and once drawn them on a paper, so then they could be made using METAFONT < 1535991236 240377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1535992040 845742 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@unaffiliated/kritixilithos JOIN :#esoteric < 1535992273 287090 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider because, I play a GURPS game but my character is not human character so how to figure their speech? Presumably due to many languages redundancy you can still understand the speech if you are speeching English even though it is not perfectly the proper sound. < 1535992411 509869 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to do that though? < 1535992961 393932 :ep100!~max@197.83.226.159 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535993807 288320 :ep100!~max@197.83.226.159 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1535993885 494854 :mist2!~mist@199.116.115.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535993917 747493 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535993944 324296 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535994031 583809 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :afraid I don’t understand what is meant precisely. How do other characters figure their speech, how should one render it when describing what is happening in English, or something else? For the second, there’s a great deal of freedom: we could write simply “”, probably adding some alien concepts in that meaning, or write verbatim/transcribe (possibly both at the same time as in “and then he said привет < 1535994031 665003 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : ”), and maybe other ways. For the first, it’s a story how people (or other entities) learn/know languages. Also two languages could be very near and often understandable (bot sometimes not really) by speakers of each another, they may enjoy being rendered as e. g. two distant English dialects < 1535994137 68066 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't usually relevant, but sometimes you like to do anyways, because sometimes might be relevant. Once there was a Latin inscription, and so I wrote it in Latin as well as English. < 1535994156 37893 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Latin is not the only language in use. < 1535994178 838563 :mist2!~mist@199.116.115.135 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535994231 273907 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535995014 898543 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1535995207 326129 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1535995243 119529 :evilman_work!~evilman_w@183.109.91.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535995286 195701 :evilman_work!~evilman_w@183.109.91.76 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535995347 118463 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-seocwxoxbyxvpsxr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1535995403 279358 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535995972 334049 :ep100!~max@197.83.226.159 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535996612 212346 :kritixilithos!~kritixili@unaffiliated/kritixilithos QUIT :Quit: all < 1535996908 258455 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1535997036 485234 :ep100!~max@197.83.226.159 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535998215 284117 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535999185 212791 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pdsxvaedobqlbcrf JOIN :#esoteric < 1536000092 726284 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86CD60.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1536001137 897954 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536001181 870001 :raynold2!~raynold@42.113.98.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001248 871166 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nglwjotekldefcbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001349 881226 :raynold2!~raynold@42.113.98.96 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536001716 883588 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001822 457016 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001825 129097 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :*.net *.split < 1536001825 572991 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reqkmjnmviuygzoz QUIT :*.net *.split < 1536001825 573034 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1536001856 452051 :mich181189!sid268336@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jsdokadxyomsqheq JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001870 508997 :ocharles!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nvfqjtmewhyvsrpl JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001908 28574 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you love it when two organizations are implementing the two sides of supposedly the same interface, but they disagree in what the details of the interface are and interpret them in slightly incompatible ways, and each of them insist that they know what the interface is because they use it a lot and I don't? < 1536001932 266372 :ocharles!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nvfqjtmewhyvsrpl NICK :Guest39584 < 1536001937 294203 :Guest39584!sid30093@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nvfqjtmewhyvsrpl QUIT :Changing host < 1536001937 294252 :Guest39584!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1536001953 733338 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536002089 548952 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536002120 650276 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have the example? < 1536002183 843941 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, but this example is a bit complicated to explain, because it's not in informatics, but in bureaucracy with rules mostly invented by government organizations. < 1536002316 189783 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I buy stuff, the vendor gives me a receipt saying what I bought and how much I payed for it and some other stuff, the format of the receipt is controlled by government rules, then I give this receipt to an organization and then I get a reduction on my income tax, < 1536002328 453052 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536002405 860122 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the party that prints the bill has some idea on what format the receipt has, which is enforced partly by the computer program they use, partly by the employee sitting at the keyboard, and the organization receiving the bill has an idea on the format of the receipt, and they don't exactly match. I think in this case it's not a hard error, only t < 1536002406 23581 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he receipt I got doesn't match the best practices according to the receiver, but it's still acceptible, but I'm not sure. < 1536002479 850004 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536002668 4776 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes you get similar problems between software libraries (or hardware components, but I don't work with those). < 1536002824 267497 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I realized that the uncommon Hungarian compound word "házhozszállítás" has z+sz in it. Now I wonder what are the most common words that have zs+z, but that's probably rarer. < 1536002869 938937 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes ISO
< 1536002913 193826 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"házszám" also has z+sz, and it's probably more common than "házhozszállítás" < 1536003109 18426 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :z+s and sz+s are in some even more common uncommon words, mostly derivatives of "igazság" and "egészség" resp, but many others. s+zs is in "szemeteszsák", which I usually write is "szemetes-zsák" despite that the academy rules forbid that < 1536003920 668096 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu > 1536005318 793196 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57511 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+588) 10Basically just duplicated the manual... > 1536005331 985667 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK/Commands14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57512 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+1992) 10[Subpage] > 1536005590 755339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK/Commands14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57513&oldid=57512 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+0) 10Typo... < 1536005814 586790 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What example might you make up of a word of a alien concepts? < 1536005898 263010 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the style for those words rather depends on the writing style of the author or franchise < 1536005929 662704 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you want examples of well-known words from fiction? < 1536005933 372908 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I suppose, although I am the author for now < 1536005940 519425 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give whatever examples you know < 1536005946 902552 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1536005980 95583 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you have a setting in mind? like some sort of sci-fi with extraterrestrial aliens (Star Trek), space fantasy (eg. Star Wars), something else? < 1536006007 997984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is actually a role playing game < 1536006026 824873 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ and https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ and their chatrooms can help a lot in this, the latter if the setting is sci-fi or fantasy < 1536006108 579394 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok, but role-playing game in what sort of universe? mediaeval magical fantasy? how alien are the aliens? just LotR or D&D elves? LotR or D&D orcs and goblins and trolls and ents? buglike aliens with human mind from a nearby star? modern theme park versions of chthulu mythos? < 1536006133 778203 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Search up Artifexian on Youtube, he has great conlang and worldbuilding videos. < 1536006213 971611 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if it's similar to D&D settings, and you don't want well-known examples but a random model for potentially new words, then http://www.d20srd.org/fantasy/name/ can help. < 1536006227 129757 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is GURPS and it is mediaeval, including old Lsd money. < 1536006234 581897 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading similar existing books or other fiction always helps of course. < 1536006251 549618 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lsd? < 1536006281 542442 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :LASERDISK, obviously. < 1536006292 343683 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lsd" is a Latin abbreviation for "pounds, shillings, pence" < 1536006299 391770 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1536006328 884867 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that system that's derived from the even worse ancient roman currency system < 1536006435 563782 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't familiar with the abbreviation, only the concept. (I know "NIS" and "ILS" are abbreviations for the same currency though.) < 1536006451 707341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, there are other abbreviations too < 1536006470 380704 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. there's always lots of abbreviations. < 1536006479 684150 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: The latin root for "Salary" is "Sal", meaning Salt. Because roman soldiers were paid in salt. < 1536006494 548145 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I knew that < 1536006496 323123 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many wasted neurons. < 1536006675 570328 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some common patterns that make them conflict a lot too: there are a lot of three or four letter English abbreviations with "o" in the middle standing for "of", lots of Hungarian government-institution-related abbreviations starting with "M" for "Magyar" or lately "N" for "Nemzeti" (these are just single letters, so worse than the old syst < 1536006675 725617 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :em of calling everything "K&K" for "Kaiser und König") < 1536006727 232632 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there were some socialist system abbreviations in between, but the names for them have been purged since, so I'm familiar with only a few) < 1536007346 434501 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can describe how is my character (named Ziveruskex (sometimes abbreviated as Ziv, sort of like Lempel-Ziv-Welch)) (and his friend, named Strixan) is like, in case they would explain the language to someone who can know such thing < 1536007424 749033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do Lempel and Welch have to do with it? < 1536007435 497925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing; it is just a similar name < 1536007451 302264 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: alien concepts. E. g. aliens have usually marriages of three individuals and behavioral roles in these marriages are traditionally distinct and have their names and these are better to not translate lest to make a misunderstanding < 1536007499 211503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, some things are difficult to translate (even among similar languages actually; such alien concepts will therefore be even more difficult) < 1536007711 953872 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have five eyes, can see five colours (rather than three, that human do), antennas, scales, feathers, wings to fly, four fingers instead of five, sharp beak, and also a breath attack, and can eat blood < 1536007751 842901 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :five color channels are neat < 1536007781 503939 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, therefore the word for the colours will be difference, even some thing that might seem same if you can see three colours, seem to difference instead. < 1536007815 353023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 acoustic sensors, and 3 vocal organs; language depends on subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably < 1536007951 269547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make this arbitrarily complex. (This idea arose from an earlier question about a universal "IPA"; with wild thoughts like these you may have to record full 3D wave functions to capture all audible signals.) < 1536008001 969008 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be interesting to make a species that is 5-way symmetric. < 1536008020 343145 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blacksilver: Yes, you could try to do that too < 1536008025 512147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m a star I’m a star < 1536008043 776287 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :☆ < 1536008066 150150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? * < 1536008067 449782 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twinkle, twinkle, little star! < 1536008094 559181 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: 5 acoustic sensors => humans have 5.1 ears too according to the people who sold all those home movie sets that were so fashionable ten years ago (and the period in "5.1" has the same significance as the one in "8.3 char long filenames on FAT" < 1536008102 293308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s \* wisdom/☆ < 1536008104 566785 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1536008143 232431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well, we have two ears and we wander around (which I believe is the real selling point of more than 2 channels) < 1536008183 919418 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you don't wander around when you're sitting on a couch watching a movie, except perhaps for getting up for more pop-corn from the kitchen < 1536008189 862532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said... I have two small speakers in front of me :P < 1536008193 749840 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 speakers would work if people didn't turn their heads. < 1536008233 241824 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the sound is supposed to be coming from behind you, you don't notice if you're facing the tv. < 1536008247 976863 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : But if you turn your head 90 degrees it breaks the illusion. < 1536008259 38765 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence you need speakers behind the listeners < 1536008263 13414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. but then I can no longer see the monitor < 1536008287 647063 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case it's a better explanation than wandering around, thanks < 1536008295 135682 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can detect the forward/back even if you turn you head a little bit. Brains are good at that sort of thing. < 1536008374 764911 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... so are people making headphones with location/orientation sensors? < 1536008376 136563 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can sometimes do it without moving your head because of how the sound bounces off the walls or something. < 1536008393 897167 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised. Wouldn't be *too* hard. < 1536008427 989261 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gyroscope, acceleromoter, some clever algorithms. < 1536008429 533274 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two external speakes on my computer but sometimes only one of them works < 1536008438 402165 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 vocal organs is harder, but you could argue that singing plus a guitar is common, then the mouth cavity and the nose cavity are separate resonators, or your vocal cords in your larynx for normal speech and your stomach for barfing and your buttock for farting are separate reeds for starting a vibration, or that people use their hands for clapping < 1536008438 532914 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and sometimes various beatbox effects, or that drummers play on half a dozen different drums. < 1536008601 494690 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"language depends on subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably" => now that's the kind of complexity we only reached after the second world war, with GPS receivers and mobile phones and astronomy instruments and near field electron microscopes and gravitational wave detectors and other such complicated devices, < 1536008603 144034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if drums count you should consider an organ < 1536008635 331664 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in these, the processing of those interferences is done autonomously, much more so than when someone plays a guitar or drum the traditional way. < 1536008677 897326 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the human definitely isn't the one who decodes the four functioning sensors together. < 1536008743 719441 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes people get information from vision and hearing, or vision and hearing and smells, or vision and touch etc combined, but I don't think that it's ever "subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably" < 1536008861 892345 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it was supposed to be an alien idea :P < 1536008867 932301 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... perhaps if you counted three types of color sensor cells in each of humans' two eyes, sometimes combined with switching some color or polarization filter or lens, to make a visual image of something, and the processing done by the human brain alone < 1536008942 317930 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how GPS design needs to consider Relativity (all^W both of them! — effects of gravitational potential and high velocity are comparable in magnitude). Of course it could be designed using empirical time dilation observations, but it’s better to have them some base < 1536008958 97398 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like when I noticed that (it's hard to play the rubik cube because two of the stickers appear nearly the same color) iff ((I'm under old yellow halogen street lights) or (in the cheaper LED lighting of the carriages of the M4 metro and I'm wearing my brown color filtering sunglasses)) < 1536009005 624429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sodium vapor lamps are the worst in that regard :P < 1536009012 50926 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: GPS design needs to consider a lot of things. it's a wonder it works. it needs an accurate time based maintained by clocks on the satellites synchronizing to ridiculously precise atomic clocks on Earth, < 1536009014 333063 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :brown color filtering seems something hi-tech < 1536009047 316333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: indeed a wonder. I marvel at such technological advances < 1536009100 201831 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since there are now four different GPS-like satellite positioning systems and they are maintained by four different secretive government organizations, I wonder if they could get into an accidental dependence loop when each of them trusts time or location readings of one of the other and results in a runaway unstable error. < 1536009218 283568 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also need to measure all sorts of anomalies in the gravitational fields of Earth indirectly to figure out the trajectories of the satellites, plus tectonic movements to figure out the trajectory of ground-based stations. it's horribly complicated, and another possible source of dependence loop among different secretive organizations. < 1536009367 435169 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then of course all the ground stations use modern digital processors and other huge integrated circuits that are horribly complicated to create, and are designed by americans who then manufactured by east asians and both of them can introduce subtle backdoors that are impossible to discover and could cause basically arbitrary behavior changes. < 1536009459 7691 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dedicated hackers with lots of free time have reverse engineered basically the entire design of the MOS 6502 chip, but that only has a few thousand transistors and the entire layout was designed by one genius person. < 1536009633 274765 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these days, CPUs are much more complicated. Intel and AMD and ARM deliberately provide enough technical info about some parts of the CPU so that some dedicated reverse engineers like Agner Fog still make independent discoveries about the newest models, but it's well known that it's easy to add such subtle backdoors that are impossible to discov < 1536009633 428950 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er unless you know some hidden information, and with some ingenuity, it's also possible to install backdoors that are plausibly deniable even if some super-intelligence who can reverse-engineered the entire CPU and discovered it as a bug. < 1536009648 74340 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ation, and with/ation; and with/ < 1536009746 984532 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's expensive, mostly because this type of high refraction index Zeiss glass lens is already expensive and there's lower demand for the tinted sunglass version. < 1536009852 46161 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: but I don't think the brown color filtering itself is very high tech. grinding the glass lenses to an assymetric shape, that's high tech. all the fancy giant optical astronomical telescope mirrors and lenses and all the expensive camera lenses are all ground to spherically symmetric, which is easy. < 1536009923 642692 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :glass isn't easy to shape to an exact shape that is smooth in the ten nanometer sclae. < 1536010015 694640 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's, like, a hundred atoms. < 1536010126 462343 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plastic and silicone lenses (used in cheaper eyeglass lenses and all contacts) are easy compared to that, because you can mold them and reshape them after heating, instead of just grinding. < 1536010130 263808 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536010251 392360 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though admittedly, contact lenses are made of particularly tricky kind of polymer materials. < 1536010273 497492 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most modern contact lenses. < 1536010292 779837 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not those torture instruments that were in use thirty years ago on actors. < 1536010351 661775 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but women's self-torture fashion accessories don't get better, they just invent some new fashion as soon as a less painful replacement for an older effect is found. < 1536010382 714571 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always laugh on stereotypic women's footwear < 1536010778 256016 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1536010912 274459 :Esqapezord!~quassel@bzq-79-183-108-244.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536011027 318637 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-109-64-13-89.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1536011346 959693 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536011450 161588 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536011542 732282 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1536011561 218689 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536013137 153119 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that was a joke, like, “brown color filtering sunglasses” can be parsed as a “((brown color) filtering) sunglasses” i. e. sunglasses that filter brown color (which is semantically funny too) :) < 1536013176 299927 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer should be made that does not have too much complicated < 1536013430 312418 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1536013437 666786 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :youknow the trusting trust infected compiler idea? < 1536013448 925276 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is 'rotten' scheme compiler which is a real example of it < 1536013451 561019 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any other examples? < 1536013514 901021 :pierte!~pierte@p1486080-ipngn12501hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1536013516 306680 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know? < 1536013531 68759 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are there any examples of 2 compilers where it infects both compilers < 1536013555 443172 :pierte!~pierte@p1486080-ipngn12501hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536013844 815044 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of the infected binary as having inside it 2 different infection genetic codes, and it acts as a multi-quine depending on who compiles it < 1536013994 352526 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: nah, sorry. brown tinted sunglasses that only have a color filter, no polarization filter < 1536014036 958979 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they also have an interference-based anti-reflection coating, but so do my normal lenses. but definitely no polarization. < 1536014095 221430 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1536014124 493572 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1536014193 360832 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by normal, I mean the non-tinted ones in my glasses that aren't sunglasses. they're still similar expensive Zeiss glass lenses, and these days they're the kind that are produced on-demand (rather than produced in advance and stored until someone orders the lens) with 1.8 reflective index, although I only settled on this type of glass a few years ag < 1536014193 486414 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o. < 1536014218 258254 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: I heard about a Delphi (old days, v7 and alike) package virus that inserted itself in package binaries and then if a program compiled with them arrived on a computer with another Delphi instance, the virus copied itself in its packages etc. < 1536014245 32230 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :don’t remember specifics < 1536014319 371914 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: are you sure the compilation itself was involved? didn't it just infect files using the standard library that programs compiled by that compiler were normally linked to? < 1536014346 175217 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O interesting < 1536014364 499116 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :involving the compiler is possible, but seems unnecessary. attaching to a library, on the other hand, can make the virus simpler and less prone of errors < 1536014379 751629 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the idea for the simpler virus < 1536014451 5812 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1536014485 737857 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The marketing name for the type of these lenses, in case it matters, is "ZEISS SV Sph Min 1.8 with Super Filter ET" for the normal glasses, and "ZEISS SV Sph Min 1.8 with Umbra SE 85%" for the sunglasses. < 1536014585 610992 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried lenses with even higher reflective index, but they have a problem with breaking up colors everywhere except the center of the lens, which is still present with this type but to a lesser amount. < 1536014696 15229 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also some of the lenses have a shape distortion near their sides that makes it very hard to synchronize the image from the two eyes and get proper binocular vision (not even seeing distances, just seeing the same object from both my eyes), < 1536014726 976972 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not clear if this is influenced by the higher reflective index or more the distance and angle of the lens from my eyes which depends on the shape of the frame. < 1536014778 895353 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, I'll probably try contact lenses (again for the third time after two failed attempts lots of years ago) next year. Contact lenses give much better visuals than eyeglasses: < 1536014876 406884 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're very close to my cornea and lens so they don't shrink the size of objects by ten or twenty percents, so everything is bigger and so better, they have much fewer shape or color distortion, and the center of the lens, which always has fewer distortions, moves as I rotate my eyes. < 1536014966 274721 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when I tried the first and second time, they already gave an arguably nicer image for objects close to me, and a clearly sharper image for objects far from me, and that was back when contact lenses with cylindrical distortion weren't available. < 1536015009 289524 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1536015098 363716 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for people like me with an almost strong myopia and some astigmatism, contact lenses should give a much better vision. < 1536015245 652645 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that I found contact lenses uncomfortable to wear. That has three potential causes. One is that contact lenses back then genuinely were worse than they are now, so that will be partly fixed by modern contact lenses. The second is that I have dry and irritated eyes due to spending lots of time in front of a computer monitor, and < 1536015250 568126 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1536015267 557352 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536015338 914988 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will be partly fixed by that I will now try daily contact lenses (that is, ones you throw away after one use, rather than cleaning) and wear them only occasionally, not all the time, so mostly not when I'm sitting in front of the computer. The third is that my myopia is caused by too long eyeballs, and because of that, the curvature of my eyeb < 1536015339 39548 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all and especially the part with the iris is strong, so contact lenses don't fit on it easily. < 1536015790 657459 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yeah, it injected itself into standard packages < 1536015809 462927 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.141.237.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :no compilation needed < 1536016060 583423 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: admittedly hooking into the operating system kernel or the on-disk OS part of the boot loader is even easier, since those were often even more standard than some compiler libraries. < 1536016094 433063 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hooking into something in 16-bit Windows < 1536016126 749128 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that gets ran in practically every installation of the target version of Windows or versions close to it < 1536016226 381152 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the Windows ones need some other component to spread, because people rarely copy their windows installations, so that's not a good idea < 1536016251 537865 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works as a worm that survives reboots, but not as a virus < 1536016366 413884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536016402 35230 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1536016462 248756 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536016523 505014 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523. I was just ranting about my vision problems and corrective eyeglasses and contacts, which I probably understand somewhat; plus butted in a little about old PC viruses, which I really don't know much about. < 1536016547 214977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably know more about old PC viruses than your vision problems < 1536016557 54185 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember, many many years ago, reading the virus descriptions in a virus database for fun < 1536016662 654156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actual computer viruses are incredibly rare nowadays < 1536016686 210162 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until a security hole comes out, then we get a bunch at once. < 1536016689 863235 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because modifying executables is a) very difficult, b) pretty much always unnecessary given modern computers' complexities < 1536016693 293155 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, although the one that was mentioned above was an honest to goodness virus, supposedly < 1536016704 498913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blacksilver: you get hacks, worms, malware generally < 1536016712 258115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a virus is a specific sort of that, one that's almost entirely died out < 1536016714 211532 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: these days it's much easier to install trojans through all sorts of internet services < 1536016735 705720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a virus is malware that works by modifying executables to run the malware code when executed (instead of or in addition to their own code) < 1536016741 643790 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, viruses specifically, not including trojans and worms and stuff. < 1536016811 347351 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Andy Weir's web-original short story "Twarrior" http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/twarrior.html has a passing mention of a compiler hack < 1536016821 880056 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg thanks < 1536016835 628185 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: it's fictional though < 1536016841 614473 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a piece of fiction short story < 1536016847 92215 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't get your hopes up < 1536016860 95475 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/ < 1536016864 69185 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :il read it now and < 1536016867 301378 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was also fun.. < 1536016869 61851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: the trusting trust discussion earlier, it struck me a while ago that an interesting esoproject would be to create a compiler chain starting from first principles, and starting on a system that's not complex enough to contain AI-complete exploits in the hardware < 1536016935 544778 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! some fellows are trying to do that for GNU Guix < 1536016941 859346 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/Mes < 1536016950 66816 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like these bootstrapping projects < 1536016956 370534 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few , but they dont all go so far < 1536016971 966561 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was also complaining about a case when a government-related agency defines one side of an interface, and a store with its computer software and training of the workers defines the other side of an interface, they're supposed to be compatible but there seems to be a subtle difference (hopefully it's not a hard error, just not following bes < 1536016972 145142 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :t practice recommendations), < 1536017006 750938 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't do anything because both of them are rightly convinced that they've been using this interface for years in thousands of cases and I'm new to it so they know the interface better and don't have to believe me. < 1536017022 33213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, my router's understanding of USB is apparently so far from standard that if I try to use it over USB, the Linux kernel resets it repeatedly because of all the standards violations < 1536017043 240369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet it's still somehow being sold for the general public < 1536017052 469416 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least there's a power unbalance, because the government side has the right to define the interface, so in the worst case I can convince the store by getting proof from the government side. < 1536017055 762748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(luckily it works over wi-fi too, ethernet-over-USB is pretty niche as technology goes anyway) < 1536017078 920431 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some other situations, especially in software, it's not clear which side gets to define the interface, in which case there's not much you can do. < 1536017114 351351 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, why is your router connected by USB? < 1536017121 330008 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ethernet-over-USB < 1536017138 668310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too physically small to fit an ethernet port on it < 1536017141 862791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it uses micro-USB instead < 1536017142 170234 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which generation of USB? USB3/3.1 or USB1/2? < 1536017151 870844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, it doesn't get that far :-P < 1536017161 335489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably 2 though based on how old it is < 1536017225 975204 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pity. if it were 3, you could try force-downgrading to USB 2 and possibly not lose bandwidth if you only need the bandwidth of an internet connection, although these days I think internet connections in the UK can be pretty fast. < 1536017256 3715 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it doesn't get that far" -- that means it's USB 2, because I think USB 3 is bootstrapped through USB 1/2 < 1536017269 952413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: reverse-engineering the 6502, it was decapped, which is more like reading the source code than reverse-engineering < 1536017278 906992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can look at the traces on the chip and see where the transistors are < 1536017290 879858 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have you tried plugging it into another USB port of the computer? that works better in practice than it should according to theory. < 1536017306 74969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are emulators that emulate the individual transistors < 1536017310 905313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I've tried it on multiple different computers < 1536017338 658349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only that, but a Linux kernel dev inspected a usbtrace and said that what the device was doing is completely broken < 1536017347 905494 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1536017349 944183 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. but then they actually figured out most part what each transistor did, with the help of the lot of earlier information about the behavior discovered earlier. < 1536017403 25462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly realises that physical hardware normally doesn't have comments
< 1536017438 195438 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536017447 944307 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's still possible to decap the 6502 and look at some of the low-level electronics, you just need to separate more layers and a view with more expensive microscopes (but microscope technology keeps improving, we now have near-field microscopes to overcome the barrier of the frequency of the scanning wave, and stuff like electron-microscope < 1536017448 115279 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s using hadrons), < 1536017460 968581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1536017473 449165 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536017481 212999 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's still possible to decap the 6502 and look at some of the low-level electronics, you just need to separate more layers and a view with more expensive microscopes (but microscope technology keeps improving, we now have near-field microscopes to overcome the barrier of the frequency of the scanning wave, and stuff like electron-microscope < 1536017481 397213 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s using hadrons), < 1536017501 214141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays I normally have the logs open in stalker mode while I'm on IRC < 1536017501 999952 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the electronics is so huge that it'd be very hard to scan it all, and almost impossible to understand it all. < 1536017505 981663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I have to reconnect I see what I've missed < 1536017517 86459 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stalker. ok < 1536017517 849820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also what failed to get through) < 1536017533 614717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a bouncer except with many fewer moving parts < 1536017556 856510 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536017571 994605 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: larger pieces or more amateur physical HW often have comments, sometimes in the form of debugging connections, sometimes readable letters printed in ink or drawn in wires on the circuit board. a CPU probably has very few of those. < 1536017633 389540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :motherboards still often have the components labelled, don't they? < 1536017633 787730 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even larger pieces can have all sorts of written tags attached, stickers and little plastic number tags, plus lots of useful coding conventions like physical arrangements and conventional colors of wires < 1536017638 528121 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing physically stopping the PCB from having lettering written in lines that aren't connected to anything. The manufacturer doesn't charge for the amount of stuff etched. < 1536017643 274475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably to help reduce errors in assembly < 1536017645 646863 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't trust the conventions too much or you can get misled < 1536017655 868159 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: larger components, yes. < 1536017669 745108 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: some components are so small it's hard to fit a label that people can see. < 1536017673 614081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blacksilver: technically speaking the more copper there is on the board the cheaper it is, because you need less acid to dissolve the unused copper from the blanks < 1536017700 704467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's balanced by the fact that putting unused areas of copper too close to used areas of copper tends to cause unwanted electromagnetic effects < 1536017731 684132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, most circuit boards have a "silkscreen" layer which is basically just white ink that's printed onto the board, and I doubt most manufacturers charge for that by the pixel < 1536017747 795121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you'd want a silkscreen layer to put things like the manufacturer's name, copyright, etc.) < 1536017791 864555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some letters like K would also be hard to put down in copper, because the etching process works least well with acute angles at the edge of the non-copper region < 1536017808 750192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What things might seem like same colours if you can see three colours but if you can see five colours (including near UV) then it seem like different colours? < 1536017822 311451 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, more than half of the time even photocopiers charge for the page rather than the ink, to keep accounting simpler, even though the ink costs might be a few times larger than the per-page maintenance cost. < 1536017830 873395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in fact it's fairly common for circuit boards to use only 45 degree turns if they can help it, presumably to help reduce this effect further) < 1536017844 298992 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have abused this by printing stuff on paper with large black areas. < 1536017847 615052 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, why does Firefox use the title of a webpage as the default filename instead of using the filename in the URL? < 1536017873 405624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, one example would be that most people can't distinguish between some greenish blue and some cyan because they both have the same effect on all three color channels, but if there were more color channels they might be distinguishable < 1536017892 394614 :Blacksilver!~Blacksilv@174-138-208-184.cpe.distributel.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536017905 279873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: probably because some websites have a URL-filename scheme that's incredibly verbose and contains large amounts of junk data < 1536017912 358169 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: probably because there are so many server-side dynamic pages when the base filename part of the url is the same in lots of similar pages you want to save together. the title is sometimes the same too, but it might still be better. < 1536017922 885635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl uses the URL-filename by default and it sometimes contains hundreds of bytes of hex or base64 < 1536017945 85201 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I meant wget, but it's probably the same for curl too < 1536017981 202111 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: curl uses the URL filename if you use the -O command-line switch. it writes content to stdout by default. close enough. correct for wget. < 1536017990 970460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I find the filename in the URL is usually better, at least if it ends in .htm or .html it is usually better; if it ends in .php then neither the title nor the URL filename are suitable < 1536018020 323457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it ends in &.jpg? < 1536018045 161321 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for wget, it's actually hard to override this per url if you want to download multiple pages from the same server, which was my main motivation for making the wgetas script. < 1536018048 93464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(implying that the filename is made up of lots of query parameters, and then one was stuck on the end to give an extension) < 1536018069 609124 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: browsers usually append a file extension if the normal one wouldn't be right < 1536018094 855183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1536018099 279328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes people do that in URLs too though < 1536018141 555427 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the Stack Exchange chat parser is the only thing I've seen that pays attention to the "extension" at the end of a URL to guess whether it should try to download the URL and display it as an image. But the Stack Exchange parsers handling URLs is particularly stupid and annoying in multiple other ways. < 1536018164 106619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that true about just about everything related to Stack Exchange's technology? < 1536018186 82073 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That extension thing can be considered a feature since it lets you override the default guess by appending a query parameter that the server ignores. < 1536018210 541497 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's only a "feature" as in a bug that lets you work around a worse bug. < 1536018226 749225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm reminded of Wikipedia's use of text/css for serving text files < 1536018227 88608 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: some of it at least. < 1536018240 40859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because IE interprets text/plain as HTML if it looks like it might be) < 1536018248 886111 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lol < 1536018290 480222 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rant about wikis and their formatting languages regularly here. < 1536018299 652781 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had one some weeks ago. < 1536018307 507311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a successful XSS attack against the #esoteric logs once using that, all the notation made it look HTMLy enough to fit a in there < 1536018323 703035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IE actually ran it < 1536018333 831026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an older set of logs, though, I think the current set are HTML already < 1536018374 339145 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536018378 477740 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, is that related to the attack where some browser ran apparent javascript found in what's supposed to be an image file and ran it in local context so let it access local files? < 1536018397 776777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure but possibly < 1536018398 14718 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the current log has three formats, two of which are text < 1536018445 536883 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, Firefox has some such format recognition magic too. they spread quickly to support broken webpages < 1536018465 674629 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08.html was my previous rant about wiki formatts < 1536018484 274885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Markdown is terrible for the purpose :-) < 1536018500 488652 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can add a mention that the formatted text logs are not for use with Internet Explorer. < 1536018559 540239 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Markdown is the base. SE adds some additional levels of changes to the format. < 1536018592 801440 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant wikis < 1536018606 100217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but SE Markdown doesn't even seem to have a general escaping rule < 1536018627 444333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, Github Flavored Markdown is just as bad < 1536018646 679364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What format recognition stuff does Firefox do? In some cases the header of the file tell the difference for example it might treat image/gif as image/png if the header says it is PNG, but it should not treat text/plain as text/html or vice-versa. Treating text/plain as text/css might be helpful if the HTML elements specify that the file is CSS. < 1536018647 864224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if there's a way to produce the output ``` other than writing the code tags out manually < 1536018651 336725 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536018666 212292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that you can't even express how to write Github Flavoured Markdown in Github Flavore Markdown < 1536018696 328661 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that in Markdown you can use plain text by starting with several tildes on one line; at least npm supports that. < 1536018742 578242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Markdown isn't really standardised at all < 1536018748 441402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's Commonmark but I'm not sure anyone actually uses it < 1536018755 98041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the MediaWiki format is better than Markdown < 1536018782 250745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IIRC the original, markdown(1), is just a set of regexps or some similar architecture (i.e. there isn't even a parser) < 1536018890 126047 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SE format does have a general escaping rule AFAIK. ampersand-escaping key characters and representing line breaks as
works for all plain text modulo the HTML horizontal whitespace collapsing problem, < 1536018910 87810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1536018918 759000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I remember the whole  thing < 1536018923 215751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, < 1536018932 135625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm still not entirely sure on whether that's useful or not < 1536018932 976674 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is familiar to many users because it also works on some other wikis < 1536019056 221596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, hex-escapes aren't very usable as most people don't have the ASCII code of characters like ` memorised < 1536019062 667372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(96, right?) < 1536019064 728157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ` < 1536019065 414221 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] < 1536019069 482795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1536019083 214631 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in posts (questions or answers) and tag wikis (but not in comments or chat), for making hyperlinks, the [link text][a] with later [a]: http://example.example/ in separate line seems to work most of the time (I admit I haven't tried the abomination IPV6 address HTTP urls), and HTML tags work for most of the other formatting available < 1536019109 101962 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are on Linux (possibly Mac OS X too, although I have not tried it) you can also use "man ascii" for the ASCII table. < 1536019117 413420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, I do that frequently < 1536019134 176830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :` is just one of the characters I happen to have memorised, because I know it comes just before a < 1536019134 602900 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found < 1536019138 661866 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: meh, those most people should ask the ascii or unicode code of characters from their computers, they're good at memorizing those. < 1536019175 392948 :wob_jonas!b03f1848@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.72 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the code of all characters ever either, but know the code for many, and know all printable ascii if pressed.