00:00:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:01:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know if you care about any of these things, but today *I* (1) found out that a week ago the National Museum of Brazil burned down, destroying most of a large collection of intellectually valuable items, which made me sad, (b) I broke a lens of my glasses, then immediately after that I got a hole on the exercise ball I was sitting on
00:01:24 <wob_jonas> , probably from a sharp splinter from the lens.
00:02:05 <ais523> I think that it's important that for the future we try to store things in a form that's easily copiable
00:02:16 <wob_jonas> and that's perl regex syntax, not sed or ex... which one do we customarily use in s/// substitutions on IRC
00:02:17 <ais523> so that we can have copies of them all over the place to help protect against disasters
00:02:29 <ais523> I think we mostly use PCRE here because we're more familiar with it
00:02:46 <ais523> or Perl, Perl and PCRE are sufficiently similar that you need to know a lot about regexes to tell them apart
00:02:51 <wob_jonas> yeah, very few people know how ex regexen wrok
00:03:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I think it hardly care since usually you know by context since you are not using it as a computer code.
00:03:27 <wob_jonas> but some people on #esoteric use sed in HackEso and don't like when I use perl in HackEso at the same time
00:03:28 <zzo38> I don't know what is more common though.
00:03:58 <wob_jonas> so maybe those people would use sed regexen
00:04:10 <ais523> perhaps we should use perl6 regex syntax, which is totally different from all the others
00:04:15 <zzo38> Why is that? Do they have both sed and perl in HackEso, I should think, then you can use whatever you use.
00:04:59 <ais523> hackeso has Perl installed
00:05:36 <zzo38> Do they have the latest version of SQLite on HaskEso?
00:05:40 <ais523> `perl-e $/.=x; print for 1..5;
00:05:51 <ais523> `perl-e $\.=x; print for 1..5;
00:05:57 <ais523> `perl-e $\.=x, print for 1..5;
00:06:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think you'll actually care about this at least a bit: (3) what I learned about English today: a "stirrup jar" has nothing to do with a "stirrup". I got suspicious after reading two independent mentions about "stirrup jar" as an archaeological find dated to the bronze in short sequence, and so I looked up the meaning.
00:07:13 <ais523> this sort of thing is not that surprising
00:07:18 <ais523> English is not a very logical language
00:08:47 <wob_jonas> `perl-e print unpack "x*(a*\@0X)*(a*@)*", "hello\n";
00:08:48 <HackEso> \ o \ lo \ llo \ ello \ hello \ ello \ llo \ lo \ o
00:10:30 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/jelly: not found
00:10:35 <ais523> we should have some golfing language interpreters in there, really
00:10:46 <HackEso> `! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
00:11:22 <wob_jonas> ^ if you know any first-hand stuff about `! or that previous bot, perhaps you should edit some more truthful or more informative wisdom there
00:11:33 <wob_jonas> I wrote this one entirely on heresay
00:11:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:12:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, about HackEso, do you happen to know why the hg history seems to go back only to 2011, while HackEso is definitely older than that?
00:13:30 <ais523> !learn `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:31 <wob_jonas> but the HackEgo hg history goes back to way before HackEso
00:13:35 <ais523> `learn `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:37 <HackEso> Relearned '`': `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:38 <oerjan> wob_jonas: Gregor had a habit of sometimes squashing history in the beginning
00:14:04 <ais523> `! bf8 +++++++++++.[+.]
00:14:07 <oerjan> so the "Initial import" messages are from when he did that.
00:14:12 <oerjan> wob_jonas: presumably.
00:14:24 <ais523> also it doesn't seem to work very well nowadays
00:14:56 <wob_jonas> if it was the latter, then I would hope he backed up the squashed parts somewhere, but maybe HackEgo didn't seem as important back then
00:15:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: EgoBot also used to allow you to write new interpreters in languages it already knew; most notably, it didn't know how to interpret Underload, so we taught it using an implementation in brainfuck
00:15:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: what doesn't seem to work very well?
00:15:39 <ais523> although I guess it works better than fungot who isn't here at all right now
00:16:45 <ais523> is the stalker server actually working at all?
00:16:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'd guess that `! references programs outside the hg repository, and those aren't present in HackEso's fs
00:17:10 <ais523> they are, but I think something might have gone wrong in the changeover
00:17:39 <ais523> see, that one's working
00:18:10 <oerjan> there used to be a working haskell at one point.
00:18:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, in that case, maybe some interpreters that `! calls reference programs outside the hg repository
00:18:35 <Sgeo_> I now have a more comfortable vice.js than vice.js
00:18:37 <wob_jonas> I know `! itself is like two simple shell scripts or something that just call on the interpreters from a directory
00:18:41 <ais523> `! intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:42 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found
00:18:44 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:45 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
00:18:49 <ais523> `! c_intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:50 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c_intercal: not found
00:18:52 <wob_jonas> but one of those interpreters calls a C compiler
00:18:57 <ais523> hmm, I thought we spent a while getting that workign a while ago
00:19:09 <ais523> `intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:19:09 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: intercal: not found
00:19:21 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
00:19:42 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen Hello, world!
00:19:43 <HackEso> ibin/bf_txtgen: line 6: java: command not found
00:19:51 <oerjan> i guess intercal wasn't one of the ones we got working
00:19:59 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: java: not found
00:20:15 <oerjan> ais523: i suppose java was always outside, and fizzie hasn't included it
00:20:20 <ais523> it takes a lot of effort to fit Java on a line of IRC as it is
00:20:28 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello, world."); }
00:20:31 <ais523> also, that list is shorter than I remember
00:20:35 <ais523> `! intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:20:35 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found
00:20:37 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:20:40 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello, world."); return 0; }
00:20:46 <ais523> it still doesn't work, but at least I remember the name
00:20:46 <wob_jonas> `! c int main( void) { printf("hello, world."); return 0; }
00:21:05 <ais523> IIRC !c / `! c is very finicky aobut trying to get it to work
00:21:11 <ais523> `! c printf("Hello, world!\n");
00:21:23 <ais523> it was meant to work for both full programs and program fragments
00:21:26 <ais523> but neither actually does
00:21:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: well you just got "gcc: not found" above, which could be an alternate explanation
00:22:08 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: gcc: command not found
00:22:11 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/cc: 2: /hackenv/bin/cc: gcc: not found
00:22:25 <ais523> oh, cc must be a wrapper for gcc, which isn't there
00:22:35 <HackEso> find: ‘/ -name '*cc'’: No such file or directory
00:23:05 <ais523> to be fair that find command will probably time out, reading the entire filesystem is fairly slow
00:23:11 <wob_jonas> what language is k? there's at least two languages called that, and ... come on, what language prints this for no input?
00:23:11 <HackEso> find: ‘/proc/tty/driver’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/ns’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/map_files’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/fdinfo’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/ns’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/2/task/2/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/
00:23:21 <ais523> `` find / -name '*cc' 2>/dev/null
00:23:41 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, it's just an ASCII table, so it's not /that/ implausilbe
00:23:53 <Sgeo_> https://sgeo.github.io/experimental/vice32/x64.html
00:23:57 <ais523> or, hmm, except for that gap between * and 0
00:24:22 <oerjan> does -name take globs?
00:24:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
00:24:49 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/K doesn't explicitly mention that that's the default output
00:25:24 <ais523> this is the most common use of find IME so I'm quite familiar with it
00:25:26 <wob_jonas> it can't be Arthur Whitney's K either
00:25:34 <wob_jonas> that one was what I was hoping for
00:26:14 <wob_jonas> I agree with that that's the most common use of find
00:26:50 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/ibin/k
00:27:17 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
00:27:30 <HackEso> 1075:2012-12-14 <Gregör> mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep \'\\. lib/interp\' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf \'#!/bin/sh\\nCMD=`cut -d\' \' -f1 "$1"`\\nARG=`cut -d\' \' -f2- "$2"`\\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"\' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
00:27:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:27:57 <ais523> perhaps we're seeing the aftermath of a prank played back in 2012
00:28:15 <wob_jonas> and would like to add that since Windows's default GUI lost the easy way to search for a file on the fs or in a directory recursively by name, and that sucks, but you can just install git for windows to get a working unix find, and it's a standalone program you can just execute from cmd without any environment variable or library or msys or mingw c
00:28:41 <wob_jonas> just be careful because the Windows path already has an executable named FIND
00:29:05 <wob_jonas> so I use a batch file with a different name to invoke the unix-style find
00:30:51 <ais523> the general culture in #esoteric has changed over time
00:30:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:31:02 <wob_jonas> ``` for x in ibin/*; do cmp -s "$x" ibin/k && echo "k=$x"; done
00:31:34 <ais523> it's been a long time since I've seen anyone esoprogramming live in the channel, for example
00:32:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I did that at some point, but yes, a long way
00:32:36 <wob_jonas> well, at least if you count obfuscated programming or golf rather than programming in an esoteric language
00:33:06 <HackEso> 1075:2012-12-14 <Gregör> mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep \'\\. lib/interp\' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf \'#!/bin/sh\\nCMD=`cut -d\' \' -f1 "$1"`\\nARG=`cut -d\' \' -f2- "$2"`\\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"\' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
00:33:59 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
00:34:38 <wob_jonas> `hg log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"
00:34:39 <HackEso> hg: unknown command 'log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ export dump the header and dif
00:34:39 <ais523> golfing programs only became popular here fairly recently
00:34:45 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"
00:34:46 <HackEso> 1075 | bin/1l bin/2l bin/? bin/@ bin/adjust bin/asm bin/axo bin/bch bin/befunge bin/befunge98 bin/bf bin/bf16 bin/bf32 bin/bf8 bin/boolfuck bin/c bin/cintercal bin/clcintercal bin/cxx bin/dimensifuck bin/forth bin/glass bin/glypho bin/haskell bin/k bin/kipple bin/lambda bin/lazyk bin/linguine bin/malbolge bin/pbrain bin/qbf bin/rail bin/rhotor bin/sadol bin/sceql bin/sh bin/trigger bin/udage01 bin/underload bin/unlambda bin/whirl ibin/1l ibin/2l ibin/? ibi
00:34:55 <ais523> for a while I think people thought of program shortening as demoscene-type stuff like the IOCCC
00:35:04 <oerjan> i think k was an irrelevant program that just happened to match Gregor's grep
00:35:18 <oerjan> and thus got moved into ibin
00:35:19 <ais523> oerjan: oh, that's plausible
00:35:42 <ais523> also it's surprising how outdated that list of languages is nowadays
00:35:52 <ais523> egobot could run from pastebins, that's how it handled larger programs
00:35:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: but I'd like to take partial credit for programming in Borland C in DOS live on #esoteric-spam or whatever that side channel is called
00:36:11 <ais523> I think the idea with hackego was /meant/ to be that we'd keep it up to date with new languages as time goes on
00:36:21 <ais523> but instead it became a playground for stupidity and messing around
00:37:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: how did wisdom and quotes start? does it predate HackEgo? did EgoBot handle them?
00:37:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: they came shortly after HackEgo did
00:37:37 <ais523> EgoBot didn't have anything like that, it was only marginally stateful and the state was frequently wiped
00:37:57 <wob_jonas> because I can totally see the wisdom database being something worth to save from EgoBot, and there are a ton of IRC bots on other channels that do learn-like stuff
00:39:08 <ais523> somehow our wisdom database ended up mostly full of bad puns rather than useful facts
00:39:38 <wob_jonas> that's sort of reasonable on this channel
00:39:51 <wob_jonas> I mean, given the general culture of esolangs
00:40:03 <wob_jonas> and the old joke languages and INTERCAL's bad puns
00:40:31 <ais523> there aren't many puns in INTERCAL
00:41:38 <ais523> there's a lot of humour and ridiculousness but it's of a different type, I think
00:42:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: maybe not puns, but I think some of the humor is similar. the class/lesson thing in modern intercal is definitely based on a bad pun, and I think it's in line with existing intercal culture.
00:44:46 <ais523> that's weird because "class" for a set of related lectures reminds me more of american english than british english, and yet Claudio Calvelli is Scottish
00:46:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: how about "class" as a group of students sitting together on yhe same school lessons?
00:46:41 <ais523> yes, that works in British English
00:47:24 <ais523> but "classes and lectures" puts the setting as a university, which normally doesn't have that sort of class because the various peoples' schedules are so varied
00:47:50 <wob_jonas> I admit I don't really know how intercal classes work
00:48:19 <ais523> I think it's pretty much equivalent to some standard mildly-OO primitive
00:48:30 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i think stirrup jars are named because of the shape of the handle
00:49:01 <ais523> but I'm not an expert on the bits of CLC-INTERCAL that I didn't add to C-INTERCAL
00:50:58 <ais523> the apparently really crazy part is the "belongs to / enslave" operation (which is a separate feature that's mentioned alongside the OO stuff), which apparently is entirely different from a pointer
00:51:11 <wob_jonas> wow, "stirrup jar" isn't even in my Oxford dictionary. mind you, it has five other phrases starting with "stirrup"
00:51:25 <ais523> although operand overloading seems to be a sufficiently good to handle call-by-reference anyway
00:53:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: as very often, zzo38 is the one you'd have to ask
00:54:02 <fizzie> The fungot outage is because I've moved and haven't set everything up.
00:54:21 <fizzie> Stalker mode should be up and running though.
00:55:00 <wob_jonas> also, ais523 and fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-07.html#lsb most quoted nicks.
00:55:25 <wob_jonas> fungot is second in the list, and ais523 fifth
00:56:05 <ais523> I didn't realise I was that quotable
00:56:11 <wob_jonas> I remember the "formally trained for tuning harps" quote
00:56:11 <HackEso> 24) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 77) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 78) <ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of
00:56:59 <HackEso> 434) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
00:57:03 <fizzie> That's the one fungot quote I remember.
00:57:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's not just about being quotable, but the other factor (literally) about having cumulatively participated much in this channel, despite how rarely you enter these days
00:57:37 <wob_jonas> when you do enter, you often get into *interesting* conversations
00:57:53 <HackEso> 1290) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
00:58:20 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not a fan of boring conversations
00:58:43 <wob_jonas> I checked for the statistics after getting two adjacent lines in quotes added by different users
00:58:43 <ais523> I actually cut back on idling here considerably a while ago because it wasn't having interesting conversations any more (although it's improved since), I was mostly gone for months
00:59:22 <ais523> (that's a different situation from the one where I cut back on IRC altogether because I was busy)
00:59:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: the annoying part, for me, is that you're always here at late night, and those interesting conversations keep me from sleeping
01:00:03 <wob_jonas> that night schedule also the problem why I chose to not visit twitch.tv at all for a while
01:00:17 <wob_jonas> motivated me too much to stay up late
01:00:28 <ais523> I find it hard to stick to the same day/night schedule as other people in my time zone
01:00:34 <ais523> it tends to creep forwards over time
01:00:52 <ais523> although more recently I've had luck with allowing my schedule to get later and later and then resetting it with a very short day
01:00:53 <wob_jonas> me too. but that's why I have to protect myself against things that motivate me.
01:01:44 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <
01:01:53 <oerjan> i use to reset with very long days, although if i try to hard it backfires
01:02:22 <oerjan> it's become harder over the years
01:02:25 <wob_jonas> what? 352 doesn't seem to match that.
01:03:39 <oerjan> the django recursions were a bit of a slow-running gag for a while
01:03:41 <ais523> olsner was annoyed at being quoted only with relation to django, so obviously people ended up added more olsner/django quotes (many of which were just quotes of each other)
01:04:23 <HackEso> 316) <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django
01:05:18 <HackEso> 317) <elliott_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django <olsner> elliott_: another quote? you're not helping :/
01:05:23 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the other day i was thinking about the english "buffalo buffalo buffalo ..." thing and remembered that "hogy hogy hogy" quote. how many "hogy" can you have in sequence in grammatically correct hungarian?
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01:07:08 <oerjan> (allowing punctuation)
01:07:12 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't think there's a limit, but "hogy" is a pretty common word and a grammar word, sort of like "que" in French, and Hungarian speakers tend to avoid or drop adjacent instances of "hogy" less often than French speakers tend to avoid or drop adjacent instances of "que"
01:07:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: anyway, one thing I was thinking about recently is "what's the computational class of contract bridge", then realised that we're focusing on the play (not the auctions) so we actually care about whist
01:07:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: more like "had"?
01:08:09 <wob_jonas> see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-08-07.2061.html about double "que"
01:08:41 <ais523> my current belief is that if you generalise it by allowing arbitrarily large numbers of suits and cards per suit, it becomes NP-complete, (I think you can probably implement subset sum in it), but I'm not sure because it represents numbers in unary and that can mess up NP-completeness proofs
01:09:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, more like "that", but worse. English has "that that" pretty often, but the uses of "que" and "hogy" make it even worse, making triples more likely. "that that that" is unlikely in English.
01:10:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, so you'd increase the number of suits too, not just the number of ranks? hmm
01:10:19 <ais523> it'd be nice to generalise it in just one direction
01:10:22 <ais523> but two is easier to program in
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01:10:58 <wob_jonas> I don't know enough bridge to really guess this, sadly. people tried to teach me once, but I determined it's not the game for me, so by now I forgot all the tactics
01:11:22 <ais523> I'm really interested in it
01:11:27 <ais523> but programming in it isn't much like actually playing it
01:12:34 <wob_jonas> I still remember a bit of ulti and snapszer tactics, they're still related games with taking tricks in rounds, each player playing one card per round in turn order, last person to take tricks calls, must follow suit if can, and in ulti there may be a trump color, in snapszer there always is
01:13:02 <wob_jonas> but in actual tactics and strategy and feel, they're totally different games from bridge or, I think, whist
01:14:51 <wob_jonas> I guess in some sense the game of whist play you are considering is in some form the essential pure form of a four-player trick card game
01:15:27 <ais523> whist is basically the simplest case of a four-player trick-taking game, with the only real twist being that the scores for players sitting opposite are added together (they count as allies) so you can try to give tricks to your partner rather than taking them yourself
01:16:17 <wob_jonas> whereas snapszer has one of two different twists on it (depending on whether it's three or four-player snapszer, or two-player snapszer, which are very different games), and ulti has so many twists the whole thing is unrecognizable
01:16:34 <zzo38> I know how to play whist
01:17:40 <oerjan> . o O ( he said, whistfully )
01:20:10 <ais523> I think the reason I like contract bridge is that trying to create bidding systems is a bit like esoprogramming
01:20:24 <ais523> although you're creating a language to communicate to humans, not computers, you have a very limited bandwidth with which to do so
01:22:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: so it's sort of like creating a golf language, but with the golf scoring being less straightforward than just "you get this many bits"?
01:22:27 <wob_jonas> yeah, I can sort of see the similarity
01:25:37 <wob_jonas> Hmm, there was a better post somewhere on David's blog about "que que", but I can't find it now
01:27:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: the hard part is that you're trying to agree on the best contract to play in but you have to realise what it is before you go past it
01:28:17 <ais523> because the last bid is the one you play in and each bid has to be strictly greater than the one before
01:28:27 <ais523> so part of your communication is trying to establish how many bits you have left!
01:29:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: high-level play of contract bridge also has such an esoprogramming aspect, because some people have systems to encode information useful for their partner in the little noise in their cards played, eg. when replying with an odd or even low card from a color you're long at indicates (with a low correlation) which of the two other non-trump c
01:30:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think whist could theoretically have such a system, and in generalized whist that could be strengthened
01:30:18 <wob_jonas> so the best strategy for a pair playing whist isn't obvious
01:30:49 <wob_jonas> these signaling systems feel like golf-eso-programming the same way as bidding systems
01:31:08 <wob_jonas> of course the bidding system has a much larger impact on real games of bridge
01:31:21 <ais523> nah, the signalling is actually more important
01:32:22 <ais523> say good play means you score 10 tricks rather than 9, and it's close in the bidding so you bid either 4 Hearts (a promise to reach 10 tricks) or 3 Hearts (a promise to reach 9)
01:32:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: signaling certainly, but the part of the signaling system that you're free to create, rather than the part where much of the signaling system is determined by the rules and playing to win
01:32:43 <ais523> bidding and making 10 scores the most, then making 10 but bidding 9, then making 9 but bidding 9, then making 9 but bidding 10
01:33:17 <ais523> so getting more tricks in the play has a larger impact in the score than bidding to the right level, as long as you're somewhere near where you're supposed to be
01:33:53 <ais523> however, bridge's rules are incredibly non-objective
01:34:06 <wob_jonas> it seeems like you get more noise bits to use in the bidding system, and so few noise bits during play that you rarely get games when the custom signaling system makes any difference, but very often get games when the crazy custom bidding system decides the game
01:34:06 <ais523> in most places "encrypted signals" are banned, and "dual meaning signals" are banned except when discarding
01:34:10 <ais523> and these aren't precisely defined anywhere
01:34:27 <ais523> also the defenders get huge numbers of noise bits during the play
01:34:39 <ais523> given that you're defending, most of the tricks are highly likely to be unwinnable
01:34:49 <ais523> so on most tricks you have a choice of useless cards to discard
01:35:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: they aren't encrypted. you're signaling during play as the defender, and they help your partner even if the lone player knows what you're signaling, just like how the bidding system helps your partner even if your opponent knows what your bids mean
01:35:48 <ais523> there are 13 tricks per round, I'd say that on half of them both defenders get a chance to signal, on the most of the others one will
01:35:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know what you mean by "dual meaning signals" though
01:36:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: well "encrypted signals" is things like "from the bidding we know that one of us has the King of Diamonds but the declarer doesn't know which, so let's signal 'either I have an even number of hearts and the King of Diamonds, or I have an odd number of hearts but not the King of Diamodns'"
01:37:06 <ais523> dual meaning signals is basically encoding more than one bit into a single discard
01:37:15 <ais523> err, a single follow (you're allowed to do it on a discard)
01:37:33 <ais523> I think because such signals are so prone to being misunderstood or not having an appropriate card that it makes the result of the game kind-of random
01:37:44 <wob_jonas> ah, so by encrypted signals, you don't mean signals when the opponent team doesn't get the key
01:38:04 <ais523> yes; they know what the signal /means/ but don't have enough information to deduce anything useful from the meaning
01:38:34 <wob_jonas> they're signals _deliberately_ seeded by information hidden from the opponent, as opposed to all the information your partner automatically gets to understand from knowing his hand but the opponent doesn't understand
01:40:34 <wob_jonas> but are encrypted meanings allowed in the bidding system? because it seems hard to define what would count as deliberately seeded, versus just a consequence of trying to get the best bidding system and using all the information your partner already has
01:41:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, it's normal for some meanings in a bidding system to be ambiguous and that they're optimized for that the partner can disambiguate them from his hand
01:43:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: encryption of that sort is allowed
01:43:38 <ais523> one of the most commonly seen conventions, 4NT blackwood, just shows the number of aces you hold
01:44:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that the one that shows the number of aces modulo 4 or modulo 3?
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01:44:17 <ais523> and that's sort-of an encrypted convention because there's no way to figure out which
01:44:27 <wob_jonas> so we didn't scare you away after your first day? good
01:44:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are multiple versions of it, the original was mod 4
01:44:40 <ais523> is pimlu the person who wrote the optimized Fractran interpreter?
01:44:48 <ais523> I like optimized esolang interpreters
01:45:17 <ais523> although it's most interesting when they "decompile" the esolang into higher-level constructs which they can simulate all at once
01:45:20 <wob_jonas> I can understand that, given your perverse fascination in turing tarpits that force a slowdown worse than fractran
01:45:22 <ais523> (like the "polynomial loop optimisation" in BF)
01:45:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, the way I look at it, the language is designed to convey /meaning/
01:45:53 <ais523> it doesn't make sense that the language should have to convey an /algorithm/ too
01:46:02 <ais523> specifying an algorithm is just one way to specify a meaning, and not even a commonly used on
01:46:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: after studying making writeups about (0)
01:47:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: after studying Amycus and (0), it's now pretty hypothetical of me to complain about double exponentially slow languages
01:47:58 <ais523> which is a strange word etymologically as based on its constituent parts, it should mean "below/less than the amount needed to cause a transition"
01:48:14 <ais523> perhaps the meaning is "not criticising oneself enough"
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01:49:01 <ais523> I guess we use "subcritical"/"supercritical", not "hypocritical"/"hypercritical"
01:49:43 <wob_jonas> hmm, what's the Hungarian translation for "hypocrite"...
01:50:31 <wob_jonas> I think there was a good word, but it's rare and I don't recall it this late in the night
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01:52:49 <wob_jonas> or I forgot it deliberately because it mostly comes up in flamewars for blaming people with inconsistently applying their supposed religious beliefs or moral or political principles, and I don't want to read those kinds of flamewars
01:53:29 <wob_jonas> which implies something like "pretending to be saintly"
01:53:54 <wob_jonas> so it actually has a good etymology
01:54:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: is there a synonym like that in English?
01:54:38 <ais523> not sure if there's a single word for it, there's almost certainly a phrase for it
01:54:44 <ais523> but we have too many phrases and it can be hard to remember them all
01:54:58 <wob_jonas> yes, there's a phrase in Hungarian too, "bort iszik és vizet prédikál"
01:55:15 <wob_jonas> which means something like "drink wine but preaches water"
01:55:47 <wob_jonas> something like that existed in English I think
01:55:49 <ais523> "do as I say, not as I do" is a fairly well-known phrase
01:56:21 <wob_jonas> let's see... https://english.stackexchange.com/q/6961/32815
01:56:55 <wob_jonas> that mentions "I am a prophet, not a saint" which sounds pretty close
01:57:51 <wob_jonas> although the question here is about a word or phrase for a hypocrite who admits that they are a hypocrite
01:59:54 <wob_jonas> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/50168/what-is-a-less-offensive-synonym-for-hypocrite gives some phrases too, "Not walking the walk", "pretender", "cafeteria Christian" (for a more specific meaning), "faker".
02:01:03 <wob_jonas> I really hope pimlu will return. We want those kinds of people here.
02:02:45 <zzo38> Yes, is good they can be on, they have stuff with esoteric programming too so it is good
02:17:43 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> ais523: is there a synonym like that in English? <-- sanctimonious
02:21:50 * oerjan had to look up what the norwegian synonym is, "hykler"
02:22:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: did you also have to look up what the norwegian for a "stirrup jar" is?
02:24:29 <oerjan> although stirrup is stigbøyle
02:26:12 <oerjan> there doesn't seem to be a norwegian wikipedia article, although swedish is "bygelkanna" which would convert to "bøylekanne"
02:28:11 <oerjan> the term doesn't google well :)
02:31:08 <oerjan> norwegian. the two sensible hits are some shop catalog, i suspect a modern gardening jug
02:31:31 <wob_jonas> I'll have to read David Madore's twitter feed from now on, in addition to checking out his blog. It turns out that he tweeted about the museum fire on --09-03, but didn't post a blog entry or blog comment, so I didn't notice.
02:32:13 <oerjan> i suspect few norwegians have researched the things
02:33:00 <oerjan> oh duh the english is "can"
02:34:03 <oerjan> the scandinavian "kanne" can mean either
02:34:09 <wob_jonas> oerjan: no, it's definitely "stirrup jar", not "stirrup can". Thank god, "stirrup can" would be even worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup_jar
02:34:53 <oerjan> wob_jonas: sorry, i'm just jumping context here
02:34:55 <wob_jonas> because "can" is ambiguous that is
02:35:53 <wob_jonas> "few norwegians have researched the things" => or if they have, they've written about it in languages other than norvegian, because it's science research
02:39:53 <oerjan> argh i hate it when the address line autocompletes a shorter word to a longer i've already looked up
02:40:17 <oerjan> (got to "cantare" instead of "can")
02:44:04 <oerjan> wiktionary's two first noun meanings are "kanne", the third would be "boks"
02:45:49 <oerjan> (which naturally also means "box", except when "box" is "eske" :P
02:46:41 <oerjan> (cardboard boxes in particular are "esker")
02:47:47 <oerjan> although i'm not sure what's the defining difference
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10:10:56 <wob_jonas> I had the strangest dream related to #esoteric.
10:11:06 <wob_jonas> Um, strangest so far, I must qualify.
10:14:54 <wob_jonas> In this dream, ais523 wrote a book. Not some super-technical book about his maths resarch at work, something slightly more popular, although it might still be one about esoteric topics.
10:15:59 <wob_jonas> The book also had a co-author. In the dream, I first saw the e-book version of the book, or perhaps some samples of it only. It had images of what looked sort of like M:tG cards, but really strange. The part I recall distinctly are the strange mana symbols in the mana cost line:
10:17:53 <wob_jonas> There were no ordinary generic mana symbols, instead there was a symbol that was a light grey disk of the sort in generic mana symbols with merely a black dot in its center, this meant the same as {1} but was used in the cost line repeated at least three times in one card (instead of saying {3}), and to the right of colored mana symbols.
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10:18:55 <wob_jonas> There were also strange variant colored mana symbols, probably inspired in my head by the Settlers of Catan: Cities and knights expansion.
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10:30:05 <wob_jonas> Specifically, there was a blue mana symbol that waa shaped like a sterotypical small purse of gold coins, representing lawbreaking or bribe in flavor, and the rule for it was something like you pay a blue mana like normal, but when you do that, an opponent may reveal a card with a variant red "law enforcement catches you" mana symbol, and then you
10:30:05 <wob_jonas> get some big penalty. Yes, this goes against the color wheel, but in my dream those were definitely the colors.
10:30:45 <wob_jonas> There were other variant colored mana symbols too, and some other graphical changes on the cards, but I don't remember those.
10:31:33 <wob_jonas> pimlu: pay no attention to the tale I'm telling. I didn't want to scare you away from the channel yesterday, and don't want to scare you away today either. It's stupid off-topic stuff, appears on IRC all the time, don't let it bother you.
10:33:08 <wob_jonas> After waking, I have two theories of how these strange mana costs appeared: either they were from some set released by Wizards in the future when I wasn't reading M:tG news and so I saw these in that book first, or the co-author is zzo38 but I didn't recognize his real name.
10:33:16 <wob_jonas> Because I'm quite sure ais523 wouldn't invent those.
10:33:27 <wob_jonas> Anyway, the kicker came later in the dream.
10:35:22 <wob_jonas> The kicker was when then I saw a dead-tree copy of the book.
10:36:22 <wob_jonas> The book was distributed with what looked like fresh salad (and possibly other food) in a thin transparent plastic container that looks like the throwaway containers to sell food for take-away that you eat the day you buy them.
10:36:55 <wob_jonas> It looked and smelled fresh, not deep-frozen, and the container didn't look like it was sealed airtight.
10:37:42 <wob_jonas> After waking, my best theory is that looks are deceiving, it was deep-frozen but looked fresh because modern food industry can do that, and it was sealed airtight and I only imagined the smell.
10:38:02 <wob_jonas> Or perhaps the container got broken by the time I looked at it.
10:38:40 <wob_jonas> But even then, this makes no sense for a book for obvious reasons.
10:40:00 <wob_jonas> But I also remember the OSzK (the national library) telling me that they store a copy of every item that's distributed with a book or periodical they have, not necessarily with the book but somewhere,
10:41:30 <wob_jonas> and that the most often this is just a floppy disk or CD, but pop magazines sometimes distribute promotional items that are stranger than that, and occasionally it even happens with more serious journals that they do archive, so they have a small collection of strange items.
10:41:55 <wob_jonas> And then I wondered, how could you abuse this policy to make it hard on the OSzK.
10:42:30 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
10:43:10 <wob_jonas> And I think I found a good solution. Distribute a periodical with an article about dietary supplements, and enclose a leaf of ten multivitamin pills with a hard shell (so they don't easily get crushed) as a promotional item.
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10:44:16 <wob_jonas> That wouldn't cause any problem with the normal distribution chain, because those multivitamin tablets can be stored for two years even in hot weather, and no newspaper stand or book store would keep an issue of a periodical for longer than that,
10:45:21 <wob_jonas> but the multivitamin pills also can't be stored for more than three or four years, because of expiry, and are also totally worthless if you can't consume them, so it would be pointless for the OSzK to archive them.
10:46:10 <wob_jonas> If they tried to store it for over four years, they could probably even get a fine for ignoring food safety laws.
10:47:12 <wob_jonas> Their best choice would be to discard the pills before letting it get in anyone's hand, after describing it in the catalog of course.
10:48:04 <wob_jonas> They certainly couldn't be held against that rule about storing every junk distributed with journals if there was a good reason not to store an item.
10:49:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: meh, this was nothing compared to a few dreams I had. I had dreams that were very scary while dreaming but no longer scary after waking up, dreams that were not scary while dreaming but scary when I thought about them afterwards, and dreams that were scary in the dream and after. This was neither. It was just strange.
10:52:00 <wob_jonas> Unrelated: http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/09/05/open-thread-109-75/#comment-666229 has one of these surreal discussions, when random visitors from the internet discuss a strange topic seriously and there happen to be all sorts of experts who can add bits to it.
10:52:35 <wob_jonas> This time it's about the biblical David & Goliath story, and there's the usual group of experts in mediaeval weaponry and armor, plus contemporary martial arts experts. I started laughing before I even got to the actually good bit.
10:53:19 <wob_jonas> The good bit starts at “<DavidFriedman> I happened to have in the closet a Japanese spear, I assume a form of Yari, which always struck me as having a very much too heavy head. So I weighed the head–about 3 1/2 lbs.”
10:54:23 <wob_jonas> And then an analysis of whether Goliath could have used a spear with a head weighing 5 kg, or whether it was a ceremonial spear or staff or sceptre and he used only more practical weapons in combat.
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16:11:31 <zzo38> If you have those kind of bribery in Magic: the Gathering, then such bribery mana symbol can be any colors, and that "law enforcement catches you" is a keyword ability rather than a mana symbol.
16:13:05 <zzo38> I also dreamt of two new mana symbols, which are "queen mana" and "energy mana" (the latter is somewhat like the energy symbols that Wizards of the Coast has done much later than I dreamt it; the use of "queen mana" is unknown)
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17:01:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57541&oldid=57515 * Orisphera * (+139)
17:02:32 <esowiki> [[Asdf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57542&oldid=46062 * Orisphera * (+79) Added one more example
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18:04:27 <zzo38> I wrote a specification for HTTP Directory Listing: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/httpdirlist since, unlike other protocols HTTP does not support directory listing.
18:06:06 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this do you have a comment of it please?
18:25:19 <pikhq> I mean, WebDAV does allow that too...
18:25:28 <pikhq> Though, WebDAV sucks. :)
18:25:39 <zzo38> Yes, that is why we make a better specification.
18:26:11 <pikhq> One nice thing about your spec is it's fairly easy to retrofit into existing web server use.
18:26:46 <pikhq> You could readily allow for the common practice of the server just generating an HTML directory listing, and switch to this with an Accept: application/http-directory header.
18:27:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is the intention
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18:49:30 <zzo38> How to implement such thing like this with Apache?
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19:03:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.28457
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