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01:45:36 <shachaf> So ALGOL 68 had only const values, which could be pointers to stack-allocated refs to allow for local variables. That seems pretty nice compared to the complexity of lvalues in C.
01:45:40 <shachaf> But they had automatic coercion between "ref t" and "t", which seems less nice. On the other hand dereferences everywhere also don't seem great. Is there any language that does something like that better?
02:12:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57676&oldid=57668 * JWinslow23 * (+195)
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02:15:50 <shachaf> b_jonas and ais523 are the folks who would knkow about that, I guess
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02:45:02 <int-e> I can't believe this works... welding a cross in Infinifactory: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/if-cross.gif
02:46:22 <shachaf> I haven't infinifactoried so I don't know what's surprising there.
02:47:12 <int-e> the fact that the timing worked out
02:47:41 <int-e> Also I found this by trial and error with not too much hope of getting it to work.
02:48:58 <int-e> I started today; the occasion was that it's on sale at gog.com
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08:21:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, I only know as much about that algol stuff as I heard here
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08:33:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unparseable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57677&oldid=23502 * Orisphera * (+1012) /* I don't understand something. */ new section
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10:08:24 <int-e> shachaf: of course the downside of those games for me is that they trigger the "just one more level
10:08:44 <int-e> " effect, while at the same time allowing one to tweak solutions for a single level forever.
10:09:29 <int-e> I played until 5am in the morning...
10:11:05 <int-e> ...and I'm thankful for flexible office hours :)
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11:31:20 <wob_jonas> In case anyone has the same problem: to restore contacts to phone memory from a VCS file on the Nokia 150 phone, the menu entry only shows up if the VCS file is already on the SD card in the right filename, and the right filename is "/backup.dat", unlike the previous model Nokia 216, on which it was "/Backup/backup.dat".
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14:57:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57678 * Orisphera * (+338) /* Is my example correct? */ new section
15:06:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57679&oldid=57678 * Orisphera * (+91) Added something that I didn't add first.
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15:41:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pelirodri * New user account
15:47:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57680&oldid=57658 * Pelirodri * (+194)
15:47:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57681&oldid=57680 * Pelirodri * (+1) /* Introductions */
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16:22:05 <esowiki> [[La We]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57682 * Pelirodri * (+2206) Created page with "'''La We''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[Rodrigo Pelissier]] in 2018. It is inspired by [[COW]] and [[Brainfuck]]. It consists of 16 commands, each r..."
16:23:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57683&oldid=57666 * Pelirodri * (+13)
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16:42:08 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57684&oldid=57682 * Pelirodri * (+701)
16:42:39 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57685 * Pelirodri * (+23) Created page with "Creator of [[La We]]."
16:43:29 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57686&oldid=57685 * Pelirodri * (+59)
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16:50:00 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57687&oldid=57684 * Pelirodri * (+26)
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16:52:05 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57688&oldid=57687 * Pelirodri * (+15)
16:52:14 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57689&oldid=57688 * Pelirodri * (+1)
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17:09:51 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57690&oldid=57689 * Pelirodri * (-1) /* Sample code */
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18:25:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheLastBanana * New user account
18:31:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57691&oldid=57681 * TheLastBanana * (+156)
18:32:07 <esowiki> [[Churro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57692&oldid=49671 * TheLastBanana * (-65) Homepage no longer exists, so I've removed it. All of its contents can be found on GitHub anyway.
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19:43:47 <shachaf> Taneb: count me in as no on the milk hth
19:44:06 <shachaf> i don't do that kind of poll
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19:45:08 <Taneb> shachaf: acknowledged
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21:20:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I have a crazy esoteric idea that I might have to expand on and write an article later. UTF-f32 encoding. Encode each Unicode/UCS code point in IEEE floating point format, then store that as bytes as big endian or little endian.
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21:22:15 <wob_jonas> So there are two variants of this, UTF-f32-be and UTF-f32-le. They're very similar to the traditional UTF-32-be and UTF-32-le, but the fun part is that if I calculate right in my head (I'll have to check this and write down the proof later), there's less need for an endianness marker than in UTF-32, because every string is unambiguous between UTF-f
21:24:32 <wob_jonas> The only strings that are valid in both are ones made of only NUL characters, and those have the same encoding and meaning in the two (and also in UTF-32). It seems that the other characters (codes 0x00000001 to 0x0010FFFD inclusive) just so happen to have no encodings clashing between UTF-f32-be and UTF-f32-le.
21:29:20 <wob_jonas> There are some genuine clashes between UTF-f32-be to UTF-32-le, and between UTF-f32-le to UTF-32-be, and I'll have to check what other potential and frequent clashes there are with various other formats.
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21:32:40 <olsner> store unicode characters only in NaNs - since those are not numbers they are clearly characters
21:33:37 <HackEso> 846) <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
21:35:49 <olsner> and you could call it UT-F32 - the placement of the dash clearly distinguishes it from UTF-32
21:37:44 <wob_jonas> olsner: how exactly would you choose the NaNs? It matters how, because for example the UTF-16-le and UTF-32-le byte order marks are valid NaNs in float32 big-endian.
21:38:48 <wob_jonas> (technically the UTF-16-le byte order mark has to be followed by any one more code point to be a valid NaN.)
21:41:29 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: that would waste space, and also has the same problem as above.
21:42:14 <wob_jonas> I can list a lot of potential advantages to UTF-f32 as to how easy it is to handle, although they're all esoteric arguments, I wouldn't recommend the format in the real world..
21:46:27 <olsner> how about UT-F16 though? then for example you can see the approximate unicode block of the characters and tell the sender you don't speak chinese without actually having to decode the exact chinese
21:49:14 <wob_jonas> olsner: that's possible, but it would waste more than two bits per 16-bit word, so I don't understand why it's better than just using UTF-16.
21:49:40 <olsner> UTF-16 needs 4 bytes for things outside the BMP, UT-F16 uses 16 bits for everything
21:50:30 <olsner> for UT-F16 it's a shame that the unicode code points aren't using the negative numbers and all the fractions between 0 and 1 though
21:51:15 <wob_jonas> olsner: it always uses the same 16 bits (0x7FFF) for anything outside BMP. In UTF-16, for a pre-UCS-32 implementation, you could use the replacement character 0xFFFD for anything outside the BMP, which would take the same place.
21:52:22 <wob_jonas> As an added bonus, the replacement character has the same encoding in UTF-f16 as any non-BMP code point.
21:53:06 <olsner> oops, didn't notice the max value for F16 was so low
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> Well, it's not that bad of course. Usually only gods, outsiders, the spirits of dead people, and very powerful wizards venture outside the base material plane, so those characters don't matter much.
21:56:02 <olsner> maybe what we should be thinking about is how to make surrogate float pairs to extend F16 precision when needed
21:56:55 <wob_jonas> I don't see in first place why you think this could be better than UTF-16.
21:58:47 <olsner> oh, better? I was going for worse
22:07:41 <wob_jonas> Sorry. I generally want to go for esoteric stuff when I have at least some esoteric arguments on how the esoteric stuff is better in some respect than the normal stuff.
22:09:15 <\oren\> I once designed a "character encoding" which encodes the exact shape of the character as a 16x16 bitmap
22:09:20 <wob_jonas> Esoteric arguments can include stuff like "the program is more golfy this way" or "the language is simple so the interpreter for the language is more golfy this way", but lots of other things.
22:09:39 <\oren\> so every character is 256 bits
22:10:41 <\oren\> plus 8 bits for width and other info
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: does that you use some sort of canonical values (or set of values) for each supported character from a reasonably usable text, so that the characters can be decoded reasonably easily?
22:11:27 <wob_jonas> Obviously it needn't cover "all characters", because no character encoding ever does.
22:11:37 <wob_jonas> Just some character set usable for some purpose.
22:12:29 <\oren\> the idea was to make it at least round-trip compatible with all legacy character encodings
22:12:35 <wob_jonas> I see. Do you have a description or something of this somewhere?
22:12:55 <wob_jonas> "all legacy character encodings"? seriousliy? that's never possible
22:13:13 <wob_jonas> there are tons of those, many barely documented
22:13:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, there are large iconv databases of them and a translation to/from unicode strings, but still.
22:14:02 <\oren\> well because it encodes the shape of the character, all you need is a font which defines the "encoding"
22:15:22 <\oren\> it's a series of 16 "columns", each of which is 16 bits tall, making a 16x16 bitmap, plus a 4 bit width and a 4 bit offset
22:15:50 <\oren\> thus the whole character is 264 bits
22:17:02 <wob_jonas> sure, but "all legacy character encodings" covers like four centuries of semaphore or flag signs, about two centuries of electric telegraphy, and over seventy years of digital computers.
22:17:22 <wob_jonas> nobody has complete documentation of "all legacy character encodings"
22:17:26 <\oren\> ah yeah I was only thinking of digital
22:17:41 <wob_jonas> even only digital is probably impossible
22:18:28 <wob_jonas> though technically almost all character encodings in semaphore, flag signals, electric telegraphy, and electronic computers count as "digital"
22:18:55 <wob_jonas> as opposed to carving letters, handwriting, and printing press
22:19:32 <wob_jonas> you could still say "only ones used with electronic machines" if you wish of course
22:20:21 <wob_jonas> but then, with modern computers, there'll be people representing various old stuff like semaphore signs on a computer, so it's a bit hard
22:21:10 <\oren\> ok. it is compatible with any encoding that has a font in b/w 12 pt (or less), with no duplicate symbols
22:21:40 <wob_jonas> like, there's the amateur radio people who use a computer to encode or decode morse signals in some radio formats that were already possible in the same format with very simple electronic circuits
22:22:46 <wob_jonas> that's better, although "no duplicate symbols" is a bit hard to satisfy with larger modern character sets. very often there are two whitespace characters with the same graphics.
22:23:16 <\oren\> the idea being that it can be used to represent for example original invented alphabets with no need for any "private use area"
22:23:30 <wob_jonas> mind you, \oren\'s font covers a useful large set of characters with supposedly no dupe glyphs
22:24:06 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ok, that sounds reasonable
22:24:44 <wob_jonas> though of course the representation you suppose isn't the only possible one for that
22:25:27 <wob_jonas> one could, say, give a font or more in some existing font format and a formatted text using that font, and embed it to a PDF
22:26:11 <wob_jonas> certainly seems a more useful idea than the 16-bit floating point
22:26:37 <wob_jonas> oh right, you're \oren\. so that's your font.
22:27:02 <wob_jonas> two people with nick starting with o. it's confusing.
22:28:40 <\oren\> I guess in practice, there are other ways to embed bitmaps, for example you could do <img> with src being a base64 encoded targa
22:30:18 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, I use an IMG element (not with a data: URL but whatever) as a way to represent my email address on my homepage. Mind you, I got laxer about that because now it's effectively public and lots of places have it in clear text.
22:31:12 <\oren\> hmmm... what is the smallest overhead uncompressed image format
22:34:21 <\oren\> hmm suppose it's a 16x16 b/w image.
22:34:39 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that would depend on what exactly you mean by "uncompressed", and what kind of images you want to represent, especially what range and resolution of colors and alpha in pixels.
22:34:51 <\oren\> "P4\n16 16\n" is a header of 11 bytes
22:35:08 <wob_jonas> if you want "lowest overhead" then you might skirt the boundaries of "uncompressed"
22:35:23 <wob_jonas> by packing bits from different things into a byte and stuff like that.
22:35:31 <wob_jonas> you know, FAT12, but it can get worse.
22:36:36 <wob_jonas> (the cluster allocation next cluster link array in FAT12 specifically. it has 12 bit cluster numbers permuted to bytes in some rather strange order.)
22:37:28 <wob_jonas> (optimized for machines of that time.)
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22:39:45 <wob_jonas> (basically an array of little-endian 12 bit numbers packed into a byte sequence, so nothing ends up aligned to 2-power boundaries)
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