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02:03:04 <sklarr> hello muh dudes and dudets
02:05:39 <oerjan> . o O ( that term is all greek to me )
02:06:06 <sklarr> what do you study my friend?
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02:12:18 <sklarr> am I just shouting into a vast abyss of nothingness
02:12:51 <sklarr> or is there some reflector out there to mirror manifestation?
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02:13:50 <zzo38> I doubt there is any Golden Dawn here though
02:15:06 <sklarr> just threw it out for fun
02:15:37 <sklarr> what's your life like?
02:15:46 <sklarr> what's important to you?
02:16:32 <zzo38> I am not sure how to respond, but perhaps I should learn. I write many computer programs, and play GURPS sometimes
02:16:41 <zzo38> I also read many books at library
02:21:42 <zzo38> I see this computer screen right now, though
02:23:00 <sklarr> thanks for the response
02:23:07 <sklarr> I see a compute screen too!
02:23:24 <sklarr> I write computer programs too
02:23:38 <sklarr> what kind of stuff are you writing, what platform are you targeting?
02:27:00 <zzo38> I mainly write C programs on my own computer, which is Linux, although you can try to compile them on other systems too. I have also written programs for DOS, and for Famicom, and other stuff. Some of this stuff I write in C is SQLite extensions. Another is a set of programs for manipulating pictures, called Farbfeld Utilities. And then there are other various stuff.
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02:27:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57706&oldid=57699 * JWinslow23 * (+253)
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02:28:47 <zzo38> I have also worked with ZZT and figured out many things about it, and written another external editor for ZZT. And I also have a project Free Hero Mesh, which is a puzzle game engine.
02:29:06 <zzo38> Many of these program you can look at if you are interested in it, is all public domain including source codes.
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08:35:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: crazy idea: esoteric character encoding UTF-f32 "https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-19.html#lLc"
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09:09:14 <zzo38> A book I read recently asks Pope Francis I to convene Vatican III. But, they ask him to do so in 2015, which has already passed.
09:11:06 <Taneb> Any reason why, or just for the sake of having a council?
09:11:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe that book was read before that date has passed?
09:13:56 <zzo38> Yes, probably it was published before then.
09:14:06 <zzo38> (Or at least written before then.)
09:14:20 <wob_jonas> At least Pope Francis did become pope before that year.
09:15:50 <zzo38> I do not remember the reason given, but it seem to me that Vatican III would help.
09:17:24 <zzo38> I have already seen your stuff about UTF-f32 above.
09:25:28 <zzo38> (not sure what to comment of that though)
09:29:20 <wob_jonas> Ok. I might try to write it up in detail some time, or more likely just forget it as I give priority to other stuff.
09:30:06 <zzo38> If you do, then we can see if there is any conflicting or not between endianness (other than null characters).
09:33:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yup, although you could also easily test that if you wish, since you just have to make a set of the encodings of all character codes from 0x00000000 to 0x0010FFFD inclusive and check for clashes. (About two thousand of those codse are non-characters, but that doesn't matter.)
09:34:04 <wob_jonas> I haven't yet done that test, but will do before writing up the human-readable proof.
09:37:03 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I may test that myself too
09:39:44 <wob_jonas> There's also a proof you can figure out in your head as a human, though you need to know some of the exact tricky details of single-precision floating point encoding, specifically how the biased exponent works exactly, which I had to look up.
09:40:17 <zzo38> I might try to figure out that too, maybe
09:45:35 <wob_jonas> The biased exponent of float formats is confusing to me because some texts define floating point such that the mantissa is between 1 and 2, and some define it such that the mantissa is between 0.5 and 1, so the exponent bias is shifted by 1 between those two. Those are just differences in notation, it shouldn't impact semantics (in correct implemen
09:46:46 <wob_jonas> It does influence floating point formatting to text, such as to hex-floats.
09:48:54 <wob_jonas> (That's for normal numbers, denormals add an extra twist but that doesn't matter here.)
09:59:54 <zzo38> I wrote this program and indeed the only output is zero: "use strict"; const dv=new DataView(new ArrayBuffer(4)); for(let i=0;i<0x10FFFE;i++) { dv.setFloat32(0,i,false); let n=dv.getFloat32(0,true); if(n>=0 && n<0x10FFFE && n===Math.floor(n)) console.log(i,n); }
10:03:03 <zzo38> (And since it is zero in both cases, is not problem)
10:03:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, "use strict" in double quotes to comment it out?
10:04:24 <wob_jonas> what language (and library if it's not obvious) is it?
10:06:58 <zzo38> Yes, it is JavaScript
10:07:56 <zzo38> (The only non-core function it uses is console.log, which can be used both in Node.js and in HTML)
10:10:23 <wob_jonas> I'll still check myself because why not, but thank you for checking
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11:36:08 <wob_jonas> Hmm. This is a film soundtrack, so it has a high dynamic range. As such, this noisy environment and cheap earbuds don't do it justice. I'll skip this album for now.
11:37:04 <wob_jonas> It also seems an odd one in this youtube playlist by a third party. Doesn't really match the rest.
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13:23:49 <esowiki> [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57707&oldid=56299 * Blacksilver * (-8) Link to [[User:A]] properly
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13:34:42 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2672694/take-2/
13:34:42 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
13:34:56 <esowiki> [[Insignificant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57708&oldid=53281 * Blacksilver * (+2) Actual pi symbol
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13:40:55 <esowiki> [[FRM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57709&oldid=12627 * Blacksilver * (+7)
13:43:54 <esowiki> [[Mostawesomeprogramminglanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57710&oldid=51034 * Blacksilver * (+4) OCD: Bolded first instance of "Mostawesomeprogramminglanguage"
14:26:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57711&oldid=57336 * Blacksilver * (+81) Added [[ESOPUNK]]
14:27:32 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57712&oldid=57711 * Blacksilver * (+2) ****
14:43:24 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57713&oldid=57673 * Blacksilver * (+647) "Equivalent" column
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15:24:29 <wob_jonas> I found out that the Firefox plugin Stylus is a good replacement for Stylish, because the latter has acquired a severe bug because it couldn't keep up with how Mozilla keeps changing Firefox.
15:24:41 <wob_jonas> So I'm mentioning it here in case anyone else is using Stylus.
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15:25:15 <wob_jonas> More info about this particular bug is at https://stackoverflow.com/q/51101566/2200827 , but the Stylus plugin could be useful anyway.
15:26:06 <wob_jonas> These plugins lets you apply custom user CSS to websites locally, thus making specific sites work better if you're willing to write the CSS or finding among ones other people write.
15:36:34 <wob_jonas> What the... oh right, this is the splash screen of the Gimp 2.10.6 release. I was expecting the splash screen of the 2.10.0 and got surprised for a moment.
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15:41:07 <zzo38> Yes that could do. I think new version of Stylish has spyware too, but if you are using a old version of Stylish and Firefox then you can use that (I use old version of Stylish and Firefox)
15:47:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Firefox and some of the websites I visit, especially the ones I have to fix with user styles, have more spyware.
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15:49:28 <zzo38> Yes, although many things still can be disabled. Is true to fix many things with user styles; I do that too. Often to remove advertisements, reduce line spacing and padding, reduce font sizes, etc. But once it was to correct the chapter number.
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15:58:43 <wob_jonas> I remove many of the advertisments by a combination of a mental filter and the noscript extension, and there are some ads (especially ones on video sites) that I do notice but don't want to remove them much because
15:59:14 <wob_jonas> the content creators get some revenue from the ads and that makes them produce better content, so in most of those cases I don't yet have enough incentive to remove the ads.
16:00:17 <zzo38> Sometimes if the ads are unobtrusive and don't waste so much bandwidth I will not remove them
16:00:27 <zzo38> But that isn't all that common
16:01:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: note that many people use google ads these days, and I remove most of those from sites not controlled directly by google with noscript.
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16:02:54 <zzo38> Yes, that can be done too
16:03:07 <wob_jonas> so the largest portion of ads that still get to me are ads on video sites (youtube and dailymotion) that either interrupt the video or are shown before the video or cover a portion of the video
16:04:00 <wob_jonas> although I also notice a few of the youtube animated gif ads that are next to the video rather than covering it, specifically the one that really looked like it was advertising a scam. I think I mentioned that one on this channel.
16:05:50 <HackEso> olist 1141: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:09:18 <shachaf> they're going to have to do the thing with the thing
16:10:04 <zzo38> Some things won't be fix so well with CSS codes, so GreaseMonkey and moz-rewrite are also used. Such as, adding accesskey attributes or changing link targets is done with GreaseMonkey
16:12:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, some things require reordering parts of the doc-tree, and those are hard to fix with CSS.
16:13:07 <wob_jonas> And in some sites, the DOM might just lack the proper hooks (especially classes) to write a useful CSS.
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17:52:26 <wob_jonas> Wow. I just got a mail from germany, delivering a small item I ordered through ebay.
17:53:26 <wob_jonas> My address (printed on the sheet and visible through the window of the envelope) is rendered almost correctly, including even the non-ascii letters, but they found a new twist on how to modify it.
17:54:47 <wob_jonas> Besides the usual mangling of putting the town and the postal code in the wrong places (which almost all such order services do, even though technically it could be fixed either by some per-country formatting rules or by taking the whole name and address except for the country in a single textarea),
17:55:58 <wob_jonas> they have uppercased the initials of the words in the street address line that should be lowercase.
17:56:28 <wob_jonas> (They didn't uppercase the whole address American style like some sellers do.)
17:56:41 <wob_jonas> I wonder if this is a specifically german thing.
17:56:54 <wob_jonas> or, um, a specifically German thing, really
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18:08:48 <zzo38> I have read that typing the address in Courier font in all uppercase with no punctuation allows the computer to sort it. This is the use I have for a typewriter, which is to type addresses on envelopes.
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19:00:14 <pikhq> I do not know about Canada, but in the US the USPS's equipment is able to read most written addresses, typed or handwritten.
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19:01:17 <pikhq> With relatively few addresses needing to fall back to a human.
19:01:57 <pikhq> (in either case, once the address has been recognized, a barcode gets applied to the mail, and all future sorting is done automatically)
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23:27:18 <wob_jonas> After all those curses about these new nokia feature phones, I'd like to praise them a little: they got sorting the contact list in Hungarian more closer to right than in older Nokias,
23:29:26 <wob_jonas> that is, names starting with Ö or Á get sorted near names starting with O or A (though not at the correct place), and when I type O to filter the contact list to names starting with O, it includes the ones starting with Ö (although I'd prefer if it wouldn't filter, just _seek_ to the first name starting with O or a later letter),
23:30:22 <wob_jonas> thus I no longer need the horrible workarounds of replacing a prefix Á with Aá and a prefix Ö with Oö like I used to do in older phones.
23:30:48 <wob_jonas> Such names aren't common, but there is more than one in my contact list.
23:31:06 <wob_jonas> Including entries I sometimes want to find.
23:32:26 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Did you see the thing I wrote at http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09.html#lDsb ?
23:33:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: did you read that from the postal organization in your country and recently? postal organizations actually put recommendations on how to address envelopes corerectly, including for machine sortability, and the kind of guy like you can even read the detailed docs rather than just the quick infosheet. And those recommendations can change occas
23:33:18 <wob_jonas> ionally on a decade scale, because of changes in technology.
23:33:28 <shachaf> I feel like you've said something similar at one point maybe.
23:33:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, perhaps remind me a few days later.
23:34:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, I've seen that. (thought it's a different link)
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23:35:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Qwertyu63 * uploaded "[[File:787138904.png]]"
23:35:59 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 Do you want to design a feature phone with good interface? If you made a serious commitment, then I'd volunteer my time to give detailed specs for the parts of the UI that matter to me, and volunteer my time to test the phone in any state, whether it's early or late, and give feedback. I think I'm a reasonable tester.
23:36:55 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 Note that I don't volunteer for testing a version control system, because testing a VCS is a daunting hard problem, way over my testing abilities, and even specifying the expected semantics has really hard problems in it.
23:37:09 <shachaf> ais523 is making a version control system?
23:37:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no. he is thinking of making one, and with a guy like him, I actually take that seriously, but he might never do it, because it's hard and he doesn't have infinite time.
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23:38:05 <shachaf> Maybe I'll talk to him about it sometime.
23:38:17 <shachaf> There's a lot of room for improvement in version control systems, if you ask me.
23:38:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: he even has a name for the version control system in the logs, and I gave him some vague instructions on what I expect from a version control system multiple times in chat
23:38:50 <pikhq> I think it telling that git remains the main popular one.
23:39:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes there is. I've talked a lot about them on this channel, although I only really know SVN and git, I haven't yet taken the time to get familiar with mercurial, and will probably never do so with darcs or the literally dozens of other free software vcses.
23:39:43 <pikhq> People are willing to suffer through bad and awkward interfaces and fundamentally only really use the one that everyone uses regardless of whether or not it works well for them.
23:40:26 <wob_jonas> pikhq: no, I think it means the sort of people who care about choosing a vcs are willing to suffer through bad and awkward interfaces to get the features they need
23:40:48 <shachaf> Maybe mercurial is the future.
23:40:55 <shachaf> mercurial + facebook's changes
23:41:42 <wob_jonas> its' not because everyone uses it. I do recommend git for certain types of personal projects even if nobody else interacts with it so what everyone uses doesn't matter. for other problems, I recommend svn or no version control at all just raw cp and diff and diff3 and patch
23:42:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's possible. that's why I have to look at it in detail, but that takes a lot of time
23:43:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Do you think it makes sense to have blocks have input and/or output values?
23:44:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: um, what's the context? a C-like programming language?
23:45:02 <shachaf> If your blocks have early exit then exit-with-value makes sense.
23:45:16 <shachaf> And I should probably think of it as something like a restricted continuation.
23:45:27 <shachaf> But should blocks possibly have an input as well?
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23:45:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I like return values, such as in rust, but if it's too hard to fit to your language because of other features, then it's not too important.
23:46:07 <shachaf> I think it's pretty core to some of my language ideas.
23:46:33 <shachaf> I wonder whether maybe the only way to declare variables is to have them as "block input" of sorts.
23:46:41 <shachaf> Or something. Maybe it's going too far.
23:47:26 <wob_jonas> inputs are more difficult, I'm not sure how that would work. would it be like an inline function (lambda) without captures immediately called with arguments, and possibly some restrictions lifted eg. on control transfer from the inner function to the outer body, or scope or liveness stuff?
23:47:51 <shachaf> It would presumably have captures.
23:48:00 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how it would work if it could do more than just an inner function, and those must have serious restrictions.
23:48:13 <shachaf> It can do more than an inner function.
23:48:19 <wob_jonas> I mean, you can pass inputs in local variables anyway
23:49:07 <shachaf> Also this is all considered in the context of a low-level language without random allocation for closures and so on.
23:50:12 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but then for an inline function that captures the stack frame and never escapes its lifetime, the language could already allow early exits or gotos into the containing function body, even in rust, I don't think there's a strong technical reason not to do that,
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23:50:56 <wob_jonas> it's just hard to implement and you gain little from it, especially if there's variadic stack allocation (rust already has that) in the calling function or other strange things, but you could restrict some of the other strange things.
23:50:59 <shachaf> It would be a bit tricky to implement maybe?
23:51:14 <shachaf> Variadic stack allocation or any kind of destructors, I think.
23:51:29 <shachaf> It would make things that behave a lot like exceptions.
23:51:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: definitely tricky to implement, yes
23:53:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, it gets even harder if you pass the function handle to called functions
23:53:05 <shachaf> I certainly don't want something as complicated as exceptions.
23:53:23 <wob_jonas> yeah, sorry, I didn't think this through
23:53:34 <wob_jonas> it would be too hard to implement, so there's a good technical reason not to do it
23:54:02 <wob_jonas> it's much easier for a block that's called right then and there, with the function reference not going anywhere
23:54:35 <shachaf> The block also just doesn't behave a whole lot like a lambda, I think.
23:54:46 <shachaf> It's possible that a lambda is a special kind of block.
23:55:01 <shachaf> But I don't think I'd want to allow early exit outside its body.
23:58:18 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether I want block arguments or not.
23:58:24 <shachaf> If I do, how would they be passed to blocks?
23:58:37 <Sgeo_> Learning about the C64 makes me appreciate memory protection more. I was confused by memory protection because it seems like modern OSes have APIs to reach into other processes' memory anyway. But with C64, if you have something in the background, it could be incompatible with other programs if some other program happens to want that same memory. Memory protection improves compatibility and avoids accidents
23:59:29 <pikhq> Modern OSes also usually gate those APIs with permissions.
23:59:52 <pikhq> So, while it's possible for a program to reach into another process's memory, it's not possible for a program to reach into *any* other process's memory.