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12:50:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57994&oldid=57935 * A * (+0) "improved" my compiler
12:51:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57995&oldid=57994 * A * (+0) Forgot to change code size
12:55:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57996&oldid=57995 * A * (+23) Golfed my compiler(add explanation)
12:56:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57997&oldid=57996 * A * (+0) I forgot again.
13:00:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57998&oldid=57997 * A * (+0) Now my implementation is in my "USB".
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13:03:33 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57999&oldid=57998 * A * (+87)
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13:56:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> I don't worry about the exact mechanism. <-- MAYBE YOU SHOULD. also it's warmer here today.
13:56:11 <lambdabot> ENVA 111350Z 14006KT 090V190 CAVOK 19/06 Q1016 TEMPO 17015KT RMK WIND 670FT 15012KT
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14:01:22 <int-e> oerjan: I'm sure there is a perfectly log-ical explanation behind that mechanism.
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15:10:30 <wob_jonas> The mechanism may just be that oerjan comes in here very often, regardless whether he's summoned or not.
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15:16:22 <wob_jonas> nice, you're coming in earlier now. I'll no longer have the problem of staying up late at night because of an IRC conversation then :-)
15:16:35 <wob_jonas> (well, I will, but because of people other than you)
15:17:05 <ais523_> I won't be here long, this username has a specific purpose and it's become more specific/predictable over time
15:17:39 <wob_jonas> So the underscore has a meaning, just not related to this channel?
15:18:00 <ais523_> oh, I thought it was common knowledge
15:18:09 <ais523_> the more underscores, the less control I have over my connection setup
15:18:34 <ais523_> one underscore typically means that I'm using a hotdesked or public-access computer (and is correlated with accessing over the web interface)
15:18:43 <ais523_> but that the setup is, apart from that, relatively sane
15:18:47 <wob_jonas> I didn't know about you in particular. I do know that some irc users use a different username depending on whether they join from home, work, or mobile or whatever.
15:18:59 <wob_jonas> At one point I used b_jonas from work and wob_jonas from home.
15:19:21 <ais523_> it used to have a range of causes, but by far the most common nowadays is that I'm at work and waiting for something to happen (typically a meeting) and have come onto IRC in the meantime
15:19:43 <wob_jonas> But some IRC clients append the underscore automatically when the original nickname is used, and that's how I used b_jonas_ for a while too, so I learned to just ignore underscore suffixes.
15:19:47 <ais523_> I think I ended up joining as ais523___ once
15:19:55 <ais523_> right, I'm still ais523, after all
15:20:11 <ais523_> you can see ais523_ on IRC as the equivalent of ais523 non-admin on the wiki
15:21:36 <wob_jonas> I guess wob_jonas could be seen as that in relation to b_jonas... sort of
15:22:13 <ais523_> you nearly always have the wo nowadays
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15:23:10 <ais523_> hmm, this is the situation in which I normally post WIP esolangs on the wiki
15:23:14 <ais523_> but I'm not convinced half an hur is enough
15:23:32 <ais523_> so I guess I'll post on IRC instead
15:23:40 <ais523_> there's an analog tarpit I've been working on
15:24:27 <ais523_> there's only one declaration, of the form "a = indefinite integeral (b + c + d + … + y) dz, initial value V"
15:24:31 <ais523_> (of course that isn't the actual syntax)
15:24:56 <ais523_> also, one input is a clock and just increases continuously over time (otherwise there's no motive force to start the whole system going)
15:25:04 <ais523_> I believe this is Turing-complete
15:27:36 <ais523_> and it's about as simple as you can get with "continuous data, discrete code"
15:28:27 <wob_jonas> um, what kind of expressions can b, c, ..., y be?
15:28:46 <ais523_> they refer to other lines of the program
15:28:57 <ais523_> like, b will have a definition of the same form, etc.
15:29:26 <ais523_> so the whole thing's just one big circular definition (although you have base cases when the sum is empty, meaning that you're taking the integral of 0, i.e. a constant)
15:29:35 <wob_jonas> also, this one is funny, I looked more into the $ int_{-1}^{m} sqrt{1 - z^2} dz $ integral that I was talking about yesterday, and I'm more confused than ever about how it works
15:30:04 <ais523_> you can define a constant as "k = integral() dk" and use the initial value to specify the value of the constant
15:30:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, so in the integral, you just have an unweighted sum of other terms?
15:30:37 <ais523_> then you can start defining functions like sin (using simple harmonic motion and the thing you're taking the sin of as the x in dx)
15:30:51 <wob_jonas> wouldn't you need a minus sign to define sin?
15:31:05 <ais523_> because you can define constants, you can define multiplication by a constant easily enough (kx = integral k dx)
15:31:24 <ais523_> so the unweighted sums can be made into weighted sums easily enough (it's a tarpit, so why add weighted sums if you don't need them)
15:31:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: only positive integer constants
15:31:35 <ais523_> no, the initial value is an arbitrary real
15:31:54 <ais523_> so you can generate a constant integrator by integrating 0 and sticking the constant in the initial value
15:32:11 <ais523_> integral 0 = C, after all (just like integral 1 = x+C)
15:32:33 <ais523_> so you don't have any restriction to positive integer weights
15:32:34 <wob_jonas> in particular, about that integral of mine, (A) on one hand, http://people.math.sfu.ca/~cbm/aands/page_13.htm formula 3.3.31 is confusing, because it uses $ d $ in two different meanings, but if I read it right, it normally has an arctan term, but in this simple case that one is cancelled out,
15:33:31 <wob_jonas> (B) ##math suggested me to evaluate the integral symbolically by a trigonometric substitution, like $ m = \sin \phi $ where $ \phi $ is a parameter between $ -\pi/2 $ and $ \pi/2 $
15:33:46 <wob_jonas> which seems to work and leads to both an arctan term and a linear term, and
15:34:15 <wob_jonas> sorry, arcsin term (not that it's a big difference here)
15:34:51 <ais523_> now, once you have constant and multiply-by-constant and sin, you can create an integral of the form y=integral(…+sin y) dx, then that effectively "quantizes" y (to one set of points while x is increasing, to a different set of points while x is decreasing)
15:34:58 <ais523_> that introduces digital behaviour that lets you create a counter
15:35:30 <ais523_> from there it's just a case of creating a state machine that can read the counters somehow, that's the bit I'm hazy on how it works, there are so many promising approaches though that it seem almost impossible that you can't do it
15:35:32 <wob_jonas> (C) you can take the geometric interpretation of a circular section of height $ m - 1 $ of the unit circle, and compute its area as the difference of the areas of a circular sector and a triangle, which would explain how you get an arcsin term from the sector and a term with square root from the triangle.
15:35:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, the initial values are given by the program? ok
15:36:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: but if it's "an arbitrary real" then why does it not get more powerful than Turing-complete?
15:36:59 <wob_jonas> possibly even in constant bound on the time variable
15:37:12 <ais523_> even starting with rationals I'm not certain it's computable
15:37:22 <ais523_> so I should really be saying "Turing-hard", not "Turing-complete"
15:37:34 <wob_jonas> although there might be something tricky that constrains this particular form of equation
15:37:44 <wob_jonas> I'm not any good at ODEs, so I can't tell
15:37:56 <ais523_> I'm wondering if it's computable due to the existence of numerical methods for integration
15:38:11 <ais523_> or if they necessarily hit singular cases which place a limit on how many decimal places you can compute
15:38:12 <wob_jonas> these are of a quite restricted form, they might not be as bad as some other ODEs
15:39:10 <wob_jonas> yeah... interesting, though I don't think I'll want to figure out anything about this particular one
15:41:12 <ais523_> anyway, the reason I like this language is that integrators and adders are two of the most fundamental components in analog computers
15:41:39 <ais523_> so most real-life mechanical analog computers should be able to implement it (although they'd likely run out of memory or accuracy very quickly if you tried to run a TC construction on them)
15:41:57 <ais523_> digital analog computers have the problem that digital integrators integrate d(time), not d(an arbitrary input)
15:42:09 <ais523_> which seems like it'd considerably reduce the power of the language (maybe not though?)
15:42:37 <ais523_> err, I mean electronic analog computers, not digital analog computers (which would be an oxymoron)
15:42:52 <ais523_> I'm so used to "electronic computer = digital computer" that it's easy to forget that electronic analog computers exist
15:42:53 <wob_jonas> wait, the z is an arbitrary variable that differs in each equation too?
15:43:16 <ais523_> (mechanical digital computers also exist, but are even rarer than mechanical analog computers)
15:43:29 <ais523_> wob_jonas: right, that's how I bootstrap up the computational power
15:43:42 <ais523_> it allows for things like "multiply by constant" (integrate the constant by the thing you're multiplying by)
15:45:02 <wob_jonas> "mechanical digital computers ... are even rarer" => that might depend on how you define a computer. would a calculator that can do multiplications or even divisions when you put an external (possibly non-mechanical) engine at its crank be a calculator? or do you only count complicated ones like ballistic computers and the Antikythera mechanism, mo
15:45:50 <wob_jonas> that's definitely very powerful then
15:46:03 <wob_jonas> more so than I imagined, at least in simple programs
15:46:16 <wob_jonas> I don't know how far the power goes
15:46:41 <wob_jonas> and in that case I'm not sure how this is even well-defined, like when the z changes sign
15:47:01 <ais523_> if you count a mechanical calculator as a computer, I can see a decent (although perhaps ill-fated) argument for counting slide rules too
15:47:25 <ais523_> althought the mechanical calculator has more scope for modifying it to add control structures than the slide rule does
15:48:08 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if a slide rule alone can count as a _mechanical_ calculator
15:48:25 <wob_jonas> it generally only calculates well when a human is doing something nontrivial with it
15:49:06 <wob_jonas> sure, it can compute sines and arcsines, which many digital calculators can't, but that's just because it has a precomputed table built in
15:49:19 <wob_jonas> a precomputed table hardly makes it a powerful computer
15:49:36 <ais523_> well, the basic principle is "find the appropriate two dials for the operation you want to calculate: line the appropriate identity up against one of the inputs, then the answer is lined up with the other"
15:49:55 <ais523_> I'm not sure I'd describe slide rule tables as precomputed when they contain infinitely many entries, though
15:49:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, a printed sine table is more accurate and easier to use (but slower if you don't need that accuracy) than a slide rule for sines and arcsines
15:50:43 <ais523_> you can easily imagine a sine-taking device which looks like a micrometer; you dial the screw wheel to the distance from the origin that represents the value you want to take the sine of, then its angle represents the value of that sine
15:50:59 <wob_jonas> infinitely many entries? what slide rule do you have?
15:51:14 <ais523_> this is different from a precomputed table in the sense that it can handle all the intermediate values between wherever your markers are
15:51:42 <ais523_> I don't actually own a slide rule (apart from one I made myself out of cardboard, which wasn't very accurate and is probably long-since lost)
15:52:05 <wob_jonas> I don't own one either, but I have played with one my father owns
15:52:16 <wob_jonas> and I even played with one or two digital mechanical calculators
15:53:27 <wob_jonas> plus I have a photo of an old ornamental digital calculator https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg
15:53:32 <wob_jonas> obviously I didn't play with that one
15:54:07 <wob_jonas> though mind you, the homepage of the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien has decent quality videos of some other mechanical automata they have in their collection restored and running
15:54:31 <wob_jonas> they can be both quite spectacular and creepy, and also esoteric in the esolang sense
15:55:49 <wob_jonas> http://www.khm.at/en/visit/collections/kunstkammer-wien/video-channel/
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17:24:43 <oklopol> just came to tell oerjan that i have to read his master's thesis :D
17:25:05 <oklopol> those pesky dimension groups...
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17:32:57 <oklopol> wow oerjan's full groups have continuous cocycles, things used to be so different
17:33:02 <oklopol> (this would be a lot more fun if he was here)
17:38:07 <oklopol> hmm https://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck lacks the "languages" and "brainfuck derivative" tags
17:54:22 <int-e> > map (length . filter (== 'o')) ["oklopol", "Phantom_Hoover"]
17:54:24 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\SI'
17:54:48 <int-e> > map (length . filter (== 'o')) ["o"++"klopol", "P"++"hantom_Hoover"]
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18:02:31 <int-e> oklopol: the error is caused by the '' character which is usually invisible... but apparently Haskell doesn't like it, not even in strings..
18:03:00 <int-e> > chr (64 + ord '\SI')
18:03:36 <int-e> a zero-width space would probably have done the trick.
18:05:55 <oob_jonas> We also have a nick with three 'a', a nick with three 'e', and a nick with three 'i'
18:07:23 <oob_jonas> int-e: you can use \& inside haskell strings, like "ok\&lopol"
18:08:05 <int-e> . o O ( /nick overnationalization )
18:08:28 <oob_jonas> int-e: also \\ like "ok\\lopol" I think
18:09:28 <oob_jonas> Haskell string literals have a rather stupid syntax, but then, I've seen worse syntax than that
18:09:59 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '&'
18:10:17 <int-e> (I did not expect this to work... but it would've been fun)
18:24:16 <oob_jonas> int-e: put it all together, with all the names!
18:26:35 <int-e> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
18:30:09 <shachaf> oerjan: OK, how should I worry about the exact mechanism?
18:32:14 <int-e> shachaf: schedule one hour for it every day, that should do the problem justice.
18:33:01 <shachaf> I have too many things to worry about to dedicate a whole hour for this one.
18:33:41 <int-e> Wel, clearly you're underestimating the issue at hand.
18:34:36 <int-e> Just think about it, oerjan may be plucking your thoughts directly from your brain.
18:35:04 <shachaf> If that's true, I'd rather *not* think about it.
18:35:10 <shachaf> One less thing for oerjan to pluck.
18:35:11 <int-e> Or perhaps you're just imagining that oerjan is replying to your comments. What is real, what is imagination?
18:35:18 <int-e> So much to worry about.
18:36:04 <shachaf> Maybe I'll worry about how I'm not worrying about all these things that I should be worrying about.
18:36:41 <HackEso> ingesorgeco:Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
18:37:19 <HackEso> 4628:2014-05-06 <oerjän> learn Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
18:38:51 <int-e> cute, but only *with* context.
18:39:35 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-05-05.html#lBl ff.
18:41:19 <HackEso> מכנסוcoin מנאסcoin וידפcoin התנשקוףcoin פרוצייcoin דנפלcoin גםcoin אנגלדופיוcoin אוריcoin ומקcoin וקנוcoin ואוביcoin המתוcoin נשמעאלוcoin ויסcoin והאילוcoin קפגcoin ומצוcoin בסגדcoin שזממתcoin
18:41:32 <int-e> also I was blissfully unaware that `coins uses colors.
18:41:56 <shachaf> You're missing out on a whole rainbow of fun.
18:42:48 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tgit.html <-- I have my own rainbow
18:45:00 <int-e> (horrible CSS animation trickery, but last time I checked it worked in Firefox, Chromium, and Safari)
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19:20:08 <Taneb> int-e: Thank God It's Thursday?
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20:35:19 <int-e> Taneb: Yes. It works for Tuesdays as well.
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