> 1539822323 365331 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Adamnew123456 5*  10New user account
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< 1539842874 849547 :Lykaina!~scat@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1539842919 844336 :Lykaina!~scat@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Sgeo_
< 1539842960 468863 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Lykaina 
< 1539843689 851006 :Lykaina!~scat@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PART #esoteric :"ByrdIRC"
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> 1539864755 317400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Describish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58025&oldid=22178 5* 03Pgimeno 5* (+590) 10Misc improvements
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< 1539865679 251808 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Introduce_yourself&diff=58011&oldid=58002 -- hmm, another user who can't read man pages. we'll have to be careful.
> 1539865838 708439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MineFriff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58026&oldid=58022 5* 03B jonas 5* (+25) 10[[Category:Non-textual]]
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< 1539868412 810652 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%AE%E1%93%82%EA%B3%A7%E2%8E%94&diff=57988&oldid=46778 wtf
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< 1539868977 958102 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION re-reads http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions

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> 1539880935 763386 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58027&oldid=57991 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+38) 10color:grey on the comment
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< 1539891443 99925 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ais523, good thing you're in. I wanted to ask something about parsing.
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< 1539891705 173153 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some strange idea. You know how there's regular expressions with captures (I'll use perl-like as an example for now, but I know there's also posix-like ones); and there's the much more restricted parsers like C scanf or lua's patterns ("http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#6.4.1"), which can match a string that's a repetition of a given
< 1539891705 317696 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric : set of characters, but not much more than that, and are absolutely unwilling to backtrack more than two or three chars, and even that only when they're in a really good mood?
< 1539891751 642195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mathematical regular expressions tend to use state-sets rather than backtracking
< 1539891812 514610 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know, but this is specifically for grammars and parsers, with captures. The captures make them harder.
< 1539891900 296573 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what I'd like is a family of grammars in between these, one that I can interpret and parse with a parser that can backtrack one level, but probably not more than two. I want it to be able to backtrack one level to parse a repetition when it has a delimiter that may be multiple characters long and may have disjoint alternatives and lookaheads in
< 1539891900 451839 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it.
< 1539891945 713726 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eg. it should be able to match qr/(?>([abcd]*)ab)/ where [abcd]* is the repetition and ab is the delimiter,
< 1539891972 891241 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but once it finds the delimiter, it won't backtrack the repetition ever, even if the regex fails to match later.
< 1539892109 990893 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and delimiters for repetition with one level of backtracking for the repetition (both longest repetition and shortest repetition, so I also want to match qr/(?>([abcd]*?)ab)/ ) sounds nice, but I'm not sure what kind of backtracking I want for undoing the choice in an alternation, that is, alternation where one branch may match a prefix of what ano
< 1539892110 139487 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ther branch matches.
< 1539892148 67573 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's some such kind of grammar known, even in the abstract mathematical world with small alphabets that don't have to consider a practical implementation involving huge unicode character classes.
< 1539892248 261036 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I really need some sort of backtracking alternatives, because I can often change the accepted language so it never needs tricky multi-character delimiters by choosing a different delimiter that rarely appears in the quoted string, and a suitable escape method,
< 1539892279 833053 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more awkward to get rid of all backtracking alternatives, especially since you may want to use readable keywords whose first character could match.
< 1539892312 674545 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I want to be able to match something that may be an integer in decimal or a floating point number in decimal, and decide which one.
< 1539892377 819421 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in some general way, so you can define grammars with special cases other than ones I hard-code, even if there's some built-in stuff for matching numbers in particular formats.
< 1539892537 243098 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And let's say that I only want a subset of regular expressions, not anything outside like balanced parenthesis or perl -le'$==0,(1x$_)=~/^(|()1(?1)(?1)\2)$(?{$=++})^/,print$=for 0..13'
< 1539892581 965265 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously that last one is a poster child of unlimited backtracking, so clearly I don't want that, but you get the idea.)
< 1539892659 661364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm reminded of LR(1), but it's more powerful than typical regular expressions rather than less; perhaps LL(1) is the class you need
< 1539892663 171394 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd like the parser generator to be able to prove that there's only limited backtracking, even if this means I may have to put extra markers in the pattern when it can't prove that alone, like that atomic capture marking above that restricts the pattern from backtracking.
< 1539892664 900527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC Python's syntax is LL(1)
< 1539892832 16211 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but LL(1) doesn't allow me to look forward, say, ten characters for qr/(?>[a-z]abcdefghij)/ or an unlimited number of characters. I want to be able to look ahead an unlimited number of characters, just not an unlimited depth of different lookaheads.
< 1539892863 142401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does, using temporary nondeterminism
< 1539892865 443303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python has keywords
< 1539892888 800196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm, I think the lexer deals with those, not the parser?
< 1539892928 536100 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm wait, you're right. Not about the keywords, but about the temporary nondeterminism
< 1539892933 519127 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that in one of the toy languages
< 1539892955 31123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not /quite/ the case that nondeterminism is always better than backtracking
< 1539892956 479003 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo
< 1539892975 398259 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need to be using really advanced backtracking features to make it better than nondeterminism
< 1539892985 77687 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can look ahead any number of tokens to determine if (ident0,ident1,ident2,... is an lvalue or an rvalue
< 1539892988 746937 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's sort of a hack
< 1539893018 757839 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually gets parsed to an lvalue, and then that lvalue gets converted to an rvalue later.
< 1539893059 124221 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one uses a yacc parser, although for handling loops and functions it uses features that a yacc parser isn't allowed to do, implemented in C++
< 1539893060 641225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been using a LR(1) parser for a golfing language, which is helpful because I can look at the state transitions to see if any program is accidentally illegal in the language
< 1539893123 284767 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure how an LL parser would do that
< 1539893135 794815 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other toy language https://esolangs.org/wiki/Scan uses an LL parser
< 1539893160 673154 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know what exactly I want, but perhaps you have pointers
< 1539893164 743658 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ideas or something
< 1539893183 416786 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you post anything about that analog computer minimalistic esolang?
< 1539893203 769412 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I looked at Recent Changes, I know you haven't)
< 1539893217 660708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so
< 1539893456 407304 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in my job, my supervisor is trying to convince me to use one of these online productivity tools that require me to personally agree to some legal terms where I state that the guys hosting that will own anything anyone has done at the company. Won't happen, but I'll have to spend a few hours reading those stupid legal terms so I can actually c
< 1539893456 553787 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :onvince her why I don't want to do that. They tried that at my previous company too, and there I managed to convince them it was a bad idea.
< 1539893470 154609 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one's a different one, but there's a whole lot of them online.
< 1539893528 650781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the company have its own lawyers? if so, you might want to let them know what's going on
< 1539893555 336798 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about the terms that say that they can suddenly start charging fees for their services, because they can't enforce those, but I don't like the ones that host company data and want me personally to agree to give them rights to use everything anyone else in the company worked on.
< 1539893557 979325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your job, anyway?
< 1539893584 420908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like you can't legally agree to those terms because they contradict the terms in your employment contract that the company owns the work you do for them
< 1539893663 512523 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In this job, the company is making a digital electronics control system for some factory engineering system, and I'm working on the GUI that we make and that the operators in the factory will use to know about the state and partly control that control system and what the machines are doing.
< 1539893693 310803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense
< 1539893700 673267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what OS are these things running? something standard or something custom?
< 1539893715 427825 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to me. It's not a really good job for me, but I consider it somewhat temporary.
< 1539893777 208599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it makes sense that the job exists
< 1539893793 502977 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The control system is running on some sort-of-custom embedded hardware by Siemens where the compiler can prove a deterministic bound on the reaction time, but the GUI runs on Windows, in some huge software framework also made by Siemens, and it communicates with the control system through an ethernet LAN.
< 1539893824 887911 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The control system CPUs also communicate with some measurement devices, on another LAN, to which only they and the measurement devices have access, to guarantee the latency.
< 1539893858 931225 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The framework is rather well designed, but also limited so you can't mess up too much, and to some extent optimized for people other than CS geeks like me, which is annoying.
< 1539893910 683252 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This company is sort of the opposite of the previous one in that it's mostly engineers working there, with too few CS people, so now it was trying to hure any computer guy or programmer available,
< 1539893942 941719 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in exchange that means that most coworkers I could talk to use some cryptic jargon, talking about electronics hardware all the time, and I'm not interested in that at all.
< 1539893955 123717 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're nice guys, but I just can't enjoy the whole thing.
< 1539893989 75531 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm trying to help them in the less boring IT automation stuff a bit.
< 1539894235 527682 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as for back for the legal stuff, on one hand, the project manager and bosses might have the right to agree to give the project they're making to those providers, so if they're making me, then I could agree to those stupid conditions, but that doesn't mean that I want to be personally responsible for that.
< 1539894283 559659 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd rather try to convince them otherwise, partly by telling them about the other stupid tool that the managers wanted me to use at the previous job,
< 1539894356 352932 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and partly by (sign) spending my time reading the boring contract and finding something I can directly point to, rather than just the vague stuff where they say they'll update their whole legal agreement once every week and I have to agree to the new agreement to continue to work with, and obviously I won't have the time to read the new agreement e
< 1539894356 468000 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very time I actually want to do some useful work with the project.
< 1539894495 375532 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ugly both because it's for work and because it's a service abroad, whereas eg. my mobile phone providers or internet providers or bank  have similar legal terms, but they're limited in how they can change and apply them by the laws of Hungary that I can actually enforce at small claims court if I need to.
< 1539894556 39478 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a random foreign provider gets access to some data with their software, and there's a company I'm working to involved, then I'm in a very bad situation if they do something actually bad and I want any sort of fix.
< 1539894715 514794 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly I was reading a lot of such conditions for mobile phone companies and banks these days, although admittedly not only the ugly legal parts about how they have the right to use the data they collect, but the part for how much money they charge. I'm actually going to switch mobile phone providers in a month or two.
< 1539894736 881437 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My current provider is changing their terms so another one is more worth for me.
< 1539894807 200540 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also buying a secondary mobile phone account for my grandmother, which is tricky because I have to communicate not only with the mobile phone providers but also with my grandma. I'm not sure which task is more pleasant.
< 1539894835 245604 :wob_jonas!b03f183c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.60 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the customer service guys sometimes seem like they're trying to listen to what I'm saying, and don't run out of their patience when doing that.
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