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00:51:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: re utf8, that's what lifthrasiir said too, https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-10-25.html#lPb
00:52:17 <wob_jonas> it's a strange thing that we have a somewhat sane system that tries to encode every character in a single encoding, and it's historically "an afterthought"
00:53:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: "yesing" could work, but "noing" would be a bad word to use, because we'd confuse it with "knowing"
00:54:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: re punctuation, I don't think you need special punctuation, since you already have "the following" or similar in the sentence.
00:55:03 <wob_jonas> re relative URL, elinks has a special command for that, bound to the "G" key
00:59:03 <zzo38> How is that then, if it is not quite the same?
01:00:56 <wob_jonas> by the way, timezone offset change for people in Europe
01:02:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: pressing "G" opens an input box for entering an URL, but fills it with the current URL so you can start editing that
01:10:09 <zzo38> It is different, then.
01:11:24 <wob_jonas> Yeah, that's basically just pressing control-L right in firefox
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01:13:19 <zzo38> Yes. I made the extension code to treat the location bar in Firefox as relative, so it does like that too; if after pushing control-L next key will be a cursor movement key then you can edit the existing URL (whether or not this extension is in use).
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03:15:31 <zzo38> Is there a function in GCC to specify that you don't care what value it is?
03:15:58 <shachaf> Like an explicitly uninitalized value?
03:17:41 <zzo38> Yes, or it might generate no code if it is directly assigned to something, if doing so would be more optimal, but might also initialize it if it can make a code that initializes an entire block of values at once, then it might be better to not have to copy out the old value first, are some examples
03:42:38 <shachaf> I've thought about this and I don't know of something in GCC.
03:42:54 <shachaf> Rust has std::mem::uninitialized()
03:43:13 <zzo38> Does something like ({ int x; x; }) working? Unfortunately I don't know.
03:44:42 <shachaf> I just asked a question in #gcc about statement expressions.
03:44:59 <shachaf> 20:20 <shachaf> If I have a statement expression that exits early (e.g. ({return 0;}) ), it looks like it gets assigned the type void. But I'd like it to behave more like it can have "any" type, since the value is never actually used. Can I do that?
03:45:04 <shachaf> 20:21 <shachaf> (In particular I want a macro that can take a statement expression that either yields a value or exits early.)
03:45:49 <zzo38> Yes, that would make sense I think, but maybe you can put the other type after the return
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03:46:26 <shachaf> Yes, but I want this to be convenient to write.
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03:46:54 <shachaf> MACRO(..., { 5; }); MACRO(..., { break; });
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04:34:05 <shachaf> Man, ALGOL 68 got this right.
05:03:49 <zzo38> How is ALGOL 68 doing?
05:04:09 <shachaf> I'm not sure it actually got this right.
05:04:26 <shachaf> But it has nonlocal goto, and labels can be turned into procedures that can be passed as arguments.
05:05:04 <zzo38> Such thing is sometimes helpful to have.
05:07:10 <zzo38> If you can compile the code to support multiple entry points
05:26:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know what a "macro" type thing that takes block arguments would look like?
05:26:58 <shachaf> A lot of people use lambdas, but in general they don't support early exit.
05:40:56 <zzo38> I don't quite know
06:09:06 <zzo38> Have you written any Magic: the Puzzling where it is necessary to concede?
06:09:38 <zzo38> (especially if more than once, or if multiple players need to concede, or if you have to take into account the possibility of an opponent conceding in a team game)
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09:32:39 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58100&oldid=58099 * Osmarks * (+263) More WHYJIT improvements.
09:36:18 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58101&oldid=58100 * Osmarks * (+3)
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12:55:02 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58102&oldid=57864 * Weirdlang * (+4)
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13:19:43 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58103&oldid=58101 * Osmarks * (+4) Fix compiler.
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14:36:08 <int-e> fungot: what's up?
14:36:09 <fungot> int-e: probably not though. :) it was only in one fnord hacking session, iirc. i am all, that results in f being returned
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15:10:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: back some time ago I asked some rules questions on how conceding in M:tG works. I think there might be some traces on this channel logs too, but I'm not sure.
15:11:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: one particular case I was interested in is when you concede while an opponent is casting Hex, before he selected the targets, and since your permanents are removed when you concede, he won't have enough creatures to target.
15:11:15 <wob_jonas> The question was what gets reverted as casting Hex is undone.
15:12:01 <wob_jonas> Eventually I decided that while the rules might define how this works, this is one of the few things I'd really want to houserule, to make conceding work saner.
15:12:07 <zzo38> I think conceding is not reverted but all of the other stuff is.
15:12:26 <wob_jonas> Not for practical reasons, but more for theoretical reasons that is,
15:12:41 <wob_jonas> to make the rules easier to understand from a rules engine point.
15:13:33 <wob_jonas> This isn't something that's come up in practical games, especially as it turns out that the rules say that if you concede, then all your teammates concede too, so any of our 2v2 games end when someone concede.
15:14:36 <zzo38> That only applies in two headed giant game.
15:14:47 <zzo38> It does not apply to Team vs Team.
15:15:27 <wob_jonas> I'm really bad at multiplayer rules
15:16:09 <wob_jonas> it took us years before we started to even play Oblivion Ring correctly (when you leave the game, the permanent removed by an Oblivion Ring or similar isn't returned to play)
15:16:29 <wob_jonas> despite that O-Ring and similar permanents were played a lot in our decks
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15:19:07 <zzo38> Which team variant do you play? If you play Two Headed Giant then you are correct that it ends immediately if only one player concede, otherwise, it doesn't.
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15:20:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, you're right. that only applies to two-headed giant indeed
15:20:45 <wob_jonas> no, we don't play two-headed giant
15:21:20 <wob_jonas> we play vanilla four player two teams of two, with the default attack rules (in each attack phase you choose which player to attack), with a few houserules:
15:22:23 <wob_jonas> the players of a team sit opposite of each other, not in front; they should try not to communicate in secret during the game (this is loosely defined, since they can communicate in secret in advance);
15:23:13 <wob_jonas> the player that's first to play draws one card less at the start; we play matches of one games so no sideboard stuff (this isn't really a houserule);
15:23:31 <wob_jonas> those are definitely the most important ones
15:24:33 <wob_jonas> definitely no two-headed giant rules, so every player gets 20 life with separate life totals, no commander rules
15:24:47 <zzo38> That is like Alternating Teams variant without rule 811.2b and 800.6
15:25:26 <wob_jonas> "Alternating Teams"? since when was that a rule? /me checks
15:26:06 <zzo38> Rule 811.2a is not used here either, although it is not relevant it look like
15:26:41 <zzo38> However, note that if you do not use any of the multiplayer options for combat, which player you attack is decided during the begin combat step, rather than the attack step. (This means it is possible to do stuff in between.)
15:27:20 <wob_jonas> hmm... I'm not sure how exactly we played that, but yes, that's probably right about start of combat
15:27:48 <zzo38> Since it is 2 vs 2, rule 811.2a and 811.4 are not applicable. All of your opponents are going to be seated next to you.
15:29:09 <wob_jonas> ugh no, I'd never use "limited range of influence". that's the most horrible abomination in the rules. I don't think it would ever possible to get sane rules while using it nontrivially.
15:29:30 <wob_jonas> that one is for drunken parties, not for (mostly) mathematicians playing M:tG
15:29:47 <wob_jonas> mind you, playing them in their free time to turn their minds off, not for puzzles or anything
15:29:59 <wob_jonas> that's why I like M:tG, not chess or bridge or go
15:31:33 <HackEso> Master Warcraft \ 2(r/w)(r/w) \ Instant \ Cast this spell only before attackers are declared. \ You choose which creatures attack this turn. \ You choose which creatures block this turn and how those creatures block. \ RAV-R, CMD-R, CMA-R
15:32:25 <zzo38> Yes, I don't like "limited range of influence" either, but it is not applicable if you are playing only 2 vs 2, because the range of influence is 2 left and 2 right, and there are only 4 players so everyone is in your range of influence, so range of influence is not applicable.
15:34:27 <wob_jonas> when we're not playing 2v2, we're playing duel, or sometimes used to play 1v1v1 but that always got too long and boring, or once tried archenemy
15:34:53 <wob_jonas> limited roi or alternating opponents isn't applicable to those
15:36:43 <wob_jonas> if we have five people, then one sits out or watches the game or assists a player, because there's no sane game mode we want to play with 5 players, and enough things to do (rearrange decks, eat etc) to not get the party boring with 5 people
15:37:09 <wob_jonas> it's 3 people that's the big problem
15:38:08 <wob_jonas> we try to avoid that by organizing M:tG on dates where we have at least four people who can come; otherwise play other board games of 3
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15:43:57 <zzo38> There are other card games for five players, such as Napoleon (which is a card game designed for five players, in teams of two and three or one and four, but you bid like in bridge and then the declarer names a card and whoever holds that card is his partner, but only that player knows who it is until the named card is played)
15:44:29 <wob_jonas> sure, and other board games too. but five people was never a problem for M:tG.
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18:56:46 <zzo38> Do you like so far the class/image selection menu recently implemented in Free Hero Mesh? It is not quite finish yet though; the selection does not actually do anything yet once it is selected, although you can select them.
19:55:32 <int-e> TIL that ghc does fixity resolution after splicing template haskell expressions... how do I unsee that mess :)
20:01:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OdinSmodin * New user account
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20:14:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58104&oldid=58092 * OdinSmodin * (+196) /* Introductions */
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20:52:28 <HackEso> reconcyl_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:13:53 <wob_jonas> Christmas shopping season is coming. Let's target people with small children who'll buy anything for their children, whether they need it or not. I think this year we should sell baby scales and baby body thermometers with labels like "certified for the updated SI units of measure of 2019".
22:15:53 <zzo38> What are the updated SI units of measure of 2019?
22:16:15 <wob_jonas> Oh, and they're both battery-powered, so on the battery slot, put a big warning that you must use batteries with voltage certified for the updated SI units too.
22:17:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: most of them. the kilogram, the ampere, the mole, the kelvin, and the candela. but none of that actually matters for a baby thermometer or scale or battery obviously.
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22:18:08 <wob_jonas> The meter and the second also get new definitions but the change there is only cosmetic to clean up the wording.
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22:20:44 <zzo38> What is the old definition and what is it being changed to?
22:20:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I really don't understand the details.
22:21:11 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_redefinition_of_SI_base_units has some info, but still
22:22:02 <wob_jonas> the point is, obviously, that the values try not to change, but the people in charge are more sure that they'll be able to consistently reproduce the standard at high precision with the new definitions
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22:22:18 <zzo38> It is good at least that kilogram is change; the old way doesn't makes sense.
22:22:48 <zzo38> And, yes, I do expect the values will not change significantly (if at all), of course.
22:23:07 <wob_jonas> the change is within the uncertainty of reproducing the old values
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22:23:33 <wob_jonas> what I don't understand is how the new definitions work
22:23:42 <wob_jonas> not really the definitions, but how they're reproducible
22:24:00 <wob_jonas> as in, what are the different high precision measurements and how they combine
22:30:16 <zzo38> I don't know either, although it looks like good to me, although I do think the old way of kilogram is no sense so is good they correct the definition of kilogram at least to a much better one.
22:31:09 <wob_jonas> it's ... complicated. I understood some of it, then gave up
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22:33:20 <wob_jonas> luckily the extra precision for the kilogram and ampere and mole won't matter for me
22:34:47 <zzo38> I like that they are making a better definition of kilogram, but the rest I don't care as much
22:35:01 <wob_jonas> yes, but they're all connected, I think
22:35:54 <wob_jonas> that's why I don't understand them
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22:38:03 <zzo38> I also don't like the word "tonne" (also called "metric ton") and prefer "megagram". (Either way it is defined as 1000 kg)
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22:50:38 <esowiki> [[JarJarScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58105 * OdinSmodin * (+294) A work in progress, JarJarScrIpt. Where all code is Jar Jar Binks' grammer.
22:55:18 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58106&oldid=58004 * OdinSmodin * (+76) My work in progress language, JarJarScript.
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23:54:57 <zzo38> I looked at the document of NNTP, and it look mostly OK although there is some problem. One problem is that it is not Y2K compliant. Another is that some cases seem to be unclear how it is supposed to work. Other than that it look like OK