00:30:34 <quintopi1> so who is plaing 7 Billion Humans?
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00:36:12 <oerjan> oh, now the logs switch date one hour earlier in my timezone
00:36:32 <oerjan> (i thought i'd only have one page to check)
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01:36:28 <moony> quintopia, haven't got it
01:36:34 <moony> i want to get Marble It Up! first anyways
01:36:58 <moony> because HOLY FUCK ITS A SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR TO ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITE GAMES AAAAA
01:37:12 <moony> i golf x86-64 for fun
01:37:26 <moony> i'm half worried 7 billion humans might be a tad easy π€
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01:39:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://arin.ga/QXWqQD/raw has the names and type lines and editions (with multiverse id) from all cards in New Gatherer. I'll parse the mana costs and rules texts and everything else there is (and add some explanatory notes at the beginning) later.
01:42:42 <wob_jonas> note though that while this has Un-cards, it does not have Schemes or Planes (and maybe a few other card types too), because Gatherer by default doesn't search for those. TODO for self: download those too
01:43:48 <zzo38> I downloaded it. It is possible to tell Gatherer to search for schemes, planes, phenomena, conspiracies, vanguards, too.
01:44:00 <wob_jonas> the Planes and Schemes and Phenomenons actually in New Gatherer, it's just set to not search them by default
01:44:14 <wob_jonas> there's actually a checkbox at the bottom to "Include special items (e.g. Planes, Schemes)"
01:45:51 <wob_jonas> I'll try to redo the download that way
01:46:23 <zzo38> When you make the file including the full texts then you should include the special items (command-only cards) too.
01:50:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: definitely. I've started the download. it's c. 190 pages of 100 cards now.
01:50:56 <wob_jonas> I'll parse everything that's easily visible from the HTML, but I won't do extra miles now to try to figure out the things that aren't in there, most importantly the flip/split/transform/meld pairings
01:52:38 <wob_jonas> but for now I just want to have a snapshot by downloading only the 190 list pages, rather than the 19000 individual card pages (or even worse, the much more card edition pages), in a way that's repeatable every three months
01:53:34 <zzo38> And then I can try to convert the text file into a SQLite database too
01:53:59 <wob_jonas> so I won't have eg. collector numbers or printed texts for each edition
01:54:31 <wob_jonas> at some point later I might try to do the more complicated stuff of trying to figure out all the pairings too
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01:54:41 <wob_jonas> but I might just not do that and believe what Scryfall says
01:54:52 <wob_jonas> they seem to have done a good work, but an independent confirmation would be nice
01:55:16 <wob_jonas> I want to download Scryfall's database anyway, the text part that is, not all the high-res images
01:55:41 <wob_jonas> but don't hold your breath, if you want to download it, you'll probably be able to do it first
01:56:54 <zzo38> Yes, maybe, I might make a program to download the JSON data, with the delays that Scryfall specifies
01:57:06 <wob_jonas> hehe, they have separate list entries for each of the Unstable cards with different cards under the same English name, to be able to display the different rules text
01:57:21 <wob_jonas> seriously, they fix that, but not the transform cards?
01:57:45 <zzo38> Did you tell them to fix the transform cards?
01:58:05 <wob_jonas> I think I told them to fix the *flip* cards at some point
01:58:47 <wob_jonas> but the Gatherer support isn't easy to reach. feel free to try, at least if you investigate how exactly those things are broken:
01:58:59 <zzo38> After that, we can try to also convert the card texts into AST with RDF. It may be possible to partially automate but some things will have to be entered manually.
01:59:32 <zzo38> (For example, to change "Counter target spell" into [:counter [:target :spell]] and so on)
01:59:47 <wob_jonas> note that at some point flip cards showed up in at least two different ways depending on the card, and at some point, a transform card whose front face has no mana cost (because it's a land) showed up wrong
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02:00:04 <wob_jonas> oh, this list has the Vanguards too
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02:02:35 <wob_jonas> yeah, flip cards still seem to show up in two different ways: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[flip]&block=+[%22Kamigawa%20Block%22]
02:04:57 <moony> [:counter [:target :spell]]
02:05:00 <moony> is that lisp or something
02:05:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you happen to know if all non-meld transform cards have "transform" or "transformed" on their front face?
02:06:15 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of that question.
02:06:30 <wob_jonas> ok, I'll probably have to double-check that from scryfall then
02:06:30 <zzo38> moony: No, the syntax is RDF.
02:07:11 <wob_jonas> if I had a rule to find all transform cards with some false positives, then I could download the individual card pages for those transform cards from New Gatherer, and find transform pairs that way
02:07:30 <wob_jonas> obviously I have to do the same with meld cards too, but there's only like three pairs of those
02:07:30 <zzo38> Yes, that could work, I suppose
02:07:43 <wob_jonas> and I'm quite sure the meld cards have rules text that I can find
02:09:13 <zzo38> moony: It is effectively _:1 when you also have _:1 :counter _:2. _:2 :target :spell. except that _:1 and _:2 are now anonymous.
02:09:51 * moony goes back to FORTH
02:10:51 <moony> ...Has someone implemented brainfuck in Dwarf Fortress yet?
02:11:03 <moony> the game's already known to be TC, so where's my Brainfuck Fortress
02:11:25 <zzo38> I don't know. If someone else didn't, do you know how?
02:11:52 <moony> I know how, but it'll take far too long for my attention span haha
02:12:05 <moony> it involves minecarts, water, and a lot of things that don't make any sense
02:12:25 <moony> oh, and a few hundred run-over dwarves
02:12:43 <moony> *The minecart hits the head, and the severed part flies off in an arc!*
02:13:01 <wob_jonas> how can I tell what expiration time an arin.ga paste has? I'm not sure what I set for that text file above
02:14:11 <zzo38> I think it is unlimited if no expiration time is set
02:14:14 <wob_jonas> moony: why are dwarves with severed heads a problem? aren't dwarves supposed to be somewhat expendable?
02:14:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yeah, but I tried to enter a title in the expiration time field because I'm used to title fields in other pastebins
02:14:41 <moony> wob_jonas, Well recently toady fixed the emotion system, AND dwarves now remember and dwell on past events
02:14:47 <wob_jonas> and I've no idea how it parsed that
02:14:49 <moony> so lots of death == lol ur fort go insane
02:14:59 <moony> (As it used to be)
02:15:17 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, then I don't know. Do you know who made up arin.ga maybe you can ask them?
02:15:21 <wob_jonas> moony: can't you make the dwarves not _see_ those beheadings?
02:15:31 <moony> also dwarves still have the insane squimishness bug, so if they even see the *tooth* of a dead dwarf, they'll get very upset
02:15:37 <zzo38> I have something to say too, which is that in addition to User-Agent it should also pay attention to Accept
02:15:56 <wob_jonas> I can just paste it again, or ignore that and paste the parsed file from the new download (with Planes etc) in the morning
02:16:33 <moony> wob_jonas, you could also convince Bowserinator or me to host a pastebin on hellomouse.net with no timeout
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02:17:10 <zzo38> I think you should just paste the new file once it is available instead
02:19:12 <wob_jonas> scryfall seems to say that all transform cards have "transform" or "transformed" on some face. that's enough for me for now.
02:19:30 <wob_jonas> obviously Wizards can print different transform cards in the future, but they can also do other strange things
02:19:56 <wob_jonas> like starting to print transform cards was a strange thing in first place
02:20:09 <zzo38> izabera: Did you read what I and wob_jonas asked about the arin.ga?
02:21:24 <wob_jonas> also, scryfall says there are about 104 transform cards (I don't know how that counts the 3 meld cards and I don't care now), that means that's not too much extra data to download
02:23:19 <wob_jonas> I mean, I have to download like 50 kilobytes of junk for each of those 104 cards just to find out what they pair with, and I might still not know which face is the front face because New Gatherer itself didn't seem to know in the past (but hopefully they fixed that after Ixalan)
02:23:34 <wob_jonas> but that's not too much to do every three months
02:23:58 <wob_jonas> (and even that's an overkill, it's not like they'll suddenly rearrange transform pairs at every Oracle update)
02:24:29 * moony has paper copy of MC88100 manual
02:24:43 * moony just wants to find hardware that uses it that wont cost him $1k
02:25:07 <zzo38> Yes, not every new set will contain transform cards
02:25:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't have to download the pairings after every set just to archive the state
02:25:56 <wob_jonas> in fact it may be better to wait until they fix bugs in New Gatherer :-)
02:26:44 <wob_jonas> I'll try to paste the same name+type+editions file with the 5% more cards in the morning
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02:39:23 <zzo38> I suppose another way other than RDF could also be Lisp
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03:12:58 <izabera> zzo38: it's unlimited by default
03:13:42 <izabera> zzo38: if you ask nicely i can change it for you :)
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04:05:33 <zzo38> izabera: I am not asking you to change the time limit. I asked about how it would parse what wob_jonas entered, and also if you can fix it to use the Accept header in addition to User-Agent header.
04:14:46 <izabera> zzo38: https://arin.ga/QXWqQD this one?
04:16:26 <izabera> the expire date is set to "Oracle database downloaded from New Gatherer, card names, type lines, editions with multiverse ids -"
04:16:52 <zzo38> Yes, and what would it do with that?
04:18:26 <zzo38> Since, it isn't a date.
04:23:28 <izabera> that's fed to php's strtotime function
04:24:17 <izabera> and then false is compared with the mtime of that file on my machine
04:24:35 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/QltY/text so I made a term rewriting language. and an interpreter to go with that language.
04:24:36 <izabera> so it's never too old and it's never deleted
04:25:03 <imode> doesn't have builtins or numbers yet. but it weighs about 236 lines of python.
04:26:18 <imode> a lot of extra parens can be removed from that file as well. provided you know what you're doing.
04:26:27 <zzo38> izabera: Ah, OK. Now it is known what format it expects.
04:27:43 <izabera> basically any date-like string will do
04:28:27 <zzo38> Maybe it should be documented that it is the format by strtotime function, so that it is possible to know what it is.
04:32:30 <izabera> can you elaborate on what you said about the Accept header?
04:35:09 <zzo38> If the Accept header prefers text/plain or text/html then use that one. There are going to be programs it does not recognize, so it can use that to decide what to do if the URL does not specify otherwise. (It can also use this if the User-Agent header is omitted. Note, however, that Internet Explorer does not mention text/html in the Accept header, strangely.)
04:40:10 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a trope for when a episode of a television show is made as a non-canon episode, even though it is still one of the episodes and the other episodes is the canon continuity?
06:05:39 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58107&oldid=58106 * Oerjan * (+0) dfnor
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08:16:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://arin.ga/Rhl5mx/raw M:tG stuff
08:17:12 <wob_jonas> same thing as before, names and typelines and editions, but with schemes and planes etc now
08:18:40 <izabera> wob_jonas: pastes with invalid dates never expire
08:20:01 <zzo38> Also, the new file is using LF instead of CRLF.
08:20:18 <wob_jonas> izabera: ok, but the original question was, from outside the server (such as through a https connection), how do I query the expiry date?
08:20:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, it should use LF, the previous one shouldn't have used CRFL
08:20:38 <wob_jonas> but then both are just rough drafts
08:20:50 <wob_jonas> I'll have to parse the rest of the database anyway
08:21:22 <zzo38> There is a standard HTTP header for expires, but when I tried it I didn't get that header, which in this case is correct anyways since it doesn't expire.
08:22:12 <zzo38> wob_jonas: But izabera said it uses the PHP strtotime function; if you know how that function works (I don't) then you would be able to figure it out. (You can also test it if you have PHP on your computer, I suppose)
08:24:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but how do I query what someone else set as the expiry date?
08:25:05 <izabera> let me change one thing real quick...
08:25:28 <zzo38> wob_jonas: As far as I know you can't, but you could try what I suggested; I don't know if it sets the Expires header at all, since I haven't tried.
08:26:15 <zzo38> Have you tried playing Magic: the Gathering with a Marseillais rule? I don't know how well it work, because I have not tried.
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11:35:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what the Marseillais rule is (in context of M:tG)
11:40:07 <Taneb> I don't know what it is anywhere
11:40:32 <Taneb> (I've been playing more magic the past few weeks, because Arena lets me do it without spending money)
11:51:16 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'd guess that zzo38 wants to transplant the idea behind the Marseillais chess variant (players make two moves in a row, with some restrictions) to M:tG.
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11:56:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah. right, that's one of those crazy chess variants where the first player wins trivially or something.
11:56:19 <wob_jonas> so you'd need very crazy amounts of restrictions
11:56:33 <wob_jonas> and it's probably the same in M:tG too
11:57:24 <int-e> wob_jonas: https://www.chessbazaar.com/blog/tag/chess-rules-for-marseillais-chess/ ... there is a balanced version where white only makes 1 move initially.
11:57:46 <wob_jonas> int-e: even if white makes only 1 move initially, it needs a lot to be balanced
11:58:09 <int-e> still crazy, but if GMs like it it can't be too trivial.
11:58:39 <int-e> Now doing the same thing in M:tG with all its fast decks... doesn't seem like a good idea.
12:02:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38, int-e: the most crazy derivative of M:tG I played were the variant rule rounds in www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500660
12:05:43 <wob_jonas> the basic rules for that game are in the first post, but every fifth "round" (not M:tG turns, but M:tG tournaments where every player submits a deck and then plays games with that deck) use some variant rule over that, different variant rule each time
12:14:39 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'd like to note that some promotional M:tG un-cards printed by Wizards like https://scryfall.com/card/hho/6/fruitcake-elemental and https://scryfall.com/card/hho/7/gifts-given don't appear in New Gatherer, and as far as I know, they never appeared in Gatherer or New Gatherer.
12:37:22 <wob_jonas> incidentally, in the HTML that New Gatherer outputs as the list, the img tags in the same role for different cards differ in what order their HTML attrs are mentioned in the HTML.
12:37:49 <wob_jonas> not that that matters, because attribute order isn't supposed to change anything in HTML, but still, it shows that there's some crazy stuff going on behind in whatever's generating that
12:38:23 <wob_jonas> probably lots of dynamic processing, most of which could be avoided by caching
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14:31:22 <wob_jonas> In one of these pairs of preconstructed M:tG decks that are designed to play against each other, like the Duel Decks series and these fancy extra-small precon decks they make these days, they should put Trap Runner in one deck and a large green trampler like Rampanging Hippo or Stampeding Rhino in the other. The flavor would be great.
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15:45:47 <wob_jonas> Why the heck does this windows program have a pulldown menu that looks almost like it's a normal Windows pulldown menu (at least the later version that can have icons in it), but for some reason drag-dropping the mouse from the pulldown heading to the menu entry does not invoke the command?
15:46:13 <wob_jonas> It can't just be linking to an old version of some library, because that drag-drop behavior has been there very long ago, much longer than icons in menus.
15:47:12 <wob_jonas> Like, the drag-drop has been working since before 32-bit windows.
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16:06:22 <zzo38> I think it doesn't help against trampling creatures?
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16:09:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: exactly, the trampler just runs through the tree
16:09:29 <wob_jonas> but not all creatures in the deck with the trampler would be tramplers, only a few
16:10:37 <wob_jonas> obviously the deck with Trap Runner may still be able to deal with the trampler in other ways
16:10:54 <zzo38> Yes, then it is OK and is not a problem to do that
16:12:03 <wob_jonas> you'd have to balance the decks, but I didn't really have full decks in mind, and in fact I consider Trap Runner generally a bad card (in strength, even if it aces the flavor), so I can't imagine a deck with Trap Runner (I have built decks with big green tramplers)
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