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01:38:41 <zzo38> What do you think is the oldest telephone number still in use? 2600 suggested that it is the telephone number of Hotel Pennsylvania (which is "Pennsylvania 5000", in the 212 area code), but do you know of any others? (This was in reply to a letter they received asking this question; the asker had something but it wasn't old enough.)
01:40:05 <pikhq> It is more than likely the oldest assigned in NYC, though granted it's hard to be certain.
01:42:01 <pikhq> PEnnsylvania 6-5000 would've been assigned circa 1930 though?
01:45:24 <pikhq> There's few other alternative possibilities: systemic numbering schemes were only rolled out on a larger scale later, and NYC's local scheme only fit in because it happened to already have the 3-4 digit scheme that was put in place in the rest of the US.
01:46:51 <pikhq> Though a few other populous cities did the same.
01:47:38 <pikhq> So, I'd *guess* that if PEnnsylvania 6-5000 isn't the oldest continuously assigned phone number, it's at least the oldest in the US?
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02:08:34 <zzo38> OK, maybe that is what it is
03:13:07 <zzo38> I have written a (currently untested) SQLite remote virtual table module. I am now writing documentation of the protocol.
03:46:19 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58208 * Cortex * (+20) Created page with "Mainly just a reader"
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05:44:28 <esowiki> [[TEPCS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58211&oldid=58210 * Cortex * (-2)
06:32:37 <esowiki> [[TEPCS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58212&oldid=58211 * Cortex * (-30)
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07:31:09 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58215&oldid=58214 * JonoCode9374 * (+95) Added categories
07:32:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58216&oldid=58204 * JonoCode9374 * (+10) Added keg
07:42:54 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58217&oldid=58215 * JonoCode9374 * (+30)
07:47:05 <esowiki> [[W]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58218 * Cortex * (+1361) Created page with "W is a programming language with various unnecessary, redundant, and useless commands. If the compiler encounters an error, the source code is encrypted into the SHA1 hashing..."
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11:48:49 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: re Russian cursive in your video. I think I already mentioned how one of the tricks used that was non-obvious to me is that the letters л and м start with a peak close to the baseline, unless they're at the start of a word, which is how м clearly differs from и.
11:49:05 <wob_jonas> That one is non-obvious to me because Hungarian cursive never uses low peaks.
11:50:51 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: But I have a different question. At the start of the letters и, г, ь (and probably others), what decides whether you start the letter with a high frowny mouth going into the down straight line, or with a high peak going into a down straight line instead?
11:52:06 <wob_jonas> I also don't understand how the heck ъ works, but I think if I knew the answer to the previous question, that would become more obvious.
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12:38:17 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: hm hm let me think…
12:40:09 <wob_jonas> This probably applies to more letters, like у, ш, ч etc, it's jsut и that's the most common and ь that's the most confusing to me.
12:40:55 <arseniiv> as far as I understand the question, I thought these two cases are the same and maybe I just wrote them unclearly
12:43:48 <wob_jonas> In Hungarian cursive, the normal way for letters that start with a downstroke like u, i, n, m, j, p, v, w is to connect with a high peak if the previous letter ends low, or with a high smile going into a peak if the previous letter ends high. A high frown instead of the peak could be used instead, and is seen in some styles, but I don't really like
12:43:48 <wob_jonas> that because it makes writing more ambiguous in some cases.
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12:45:12 <arseniiv> I think something like that applies here too
12:46:54 <wob_jonas> In some styles, the letter s and r also starts with a peak with possibly a high smile before, but the style I learned uses an alternate r which actually starts with a high frown going into a straight line down, and for a top connection from before, such as "or", that becomes a high wave (flipped tilde). The letter z also starts with a high frown in
12:48:14 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: maybe you use a high smile for и at the start of a word to make it more distinct from an м ?
12:49:33 <arseniiv> at the start I’d begin и straight with a downstroke, as there’s nothing before it
12:50:41 <arseniiv> I hope I said something helpful :D
12:50:52 <wob_jonas> still... I should check the video to find cases when you start и or г etc with a high frown. That seemed to occur several times, and didn't seem to be random sloppyness.
12:51:41 <arseniiv> okay, I’ll try to analyse these if you find them
12:52:58 <arseniiv> also maybe I’ll write something static on paper and scan it, if you’d have some suggestions
12:53:26 <arseniiv> this should be easier and also clearer
12:53:47 <wob_jonas> And I'll also look for instances of ф because it's just too rare and I don't understand how it works, but that's less important because ф is distinctive enough that it's easy to recognize in any context.
12:55:03 <wob_jonas> I also don't understand why you wrote the uppercase Т in two different stroke orders, but that doesn't seem important.
12:55:37 <wob_jonas> I don't care much about the uppercase letters, writing them in this fancy cursive style seems excessive anyway, I don't really do that even for Hungarian cursive.
12:56:18 <wob_jonas> Cursive is just not designed to accomodate uppercase letters in the fancy style people invented for it, half of the uppercase letters in Hungarian cursive don't even work.
12:57:43 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: in the В page, you write ьг with a high frown connecting the г
12:59:17 <wob_jonas> In the Г page, the standalone г is like that too
12:59:35 <wob_jonas> doesn't matter for a standalone letter of course
13:02:38 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I also don't understand why you wrote the uppercase Т in two different stroke orders, but that doesn't seem important. => usually I don’t write Т in cursive style, so I’m undiscipled in this case
13:03:28 <wob_jonas> Yeah, makes sense. Most uppercase letters just look stupid in this sort of cursive. They're just inherited simplified from back when people wrote more fancy cursives.
13:03:49 <arseniiv> writing them in this fancy cursive style seems excessive anyway, I don't really do that even for Hungarian cursive. => yes, the same for me, maybe except some letters that are simpler to write than sans-serify variants
13:04:27 <wob_jonas> uppercase "A" is quite common in Hungarian because of the articles
13:04:44 <wob_jonas> and it happens to work out decent in two different cursive ways
13:06:11 <wob_jonas> Some other uppercase letters work out because they happen to be just the lowercase letter grown up AND have a low connection. The ones with a high connection like "O" or "V" don't work well because you can't connect the next letter to the uppercase high connection.
13:06:36 <wob_jonas> "R" also works out fine, the same as "A".
13:07:56 <wob_jonas> Back in the video, the И page is not so clear, but it looks like you're trying to write the г with a high frown.
13:08:44 <wob_jonas> The Й page also definitely has a г with a frown
13:10:13 <wob_jonas> That means I have to look for a г with a peak, because maybe г normally starts with a frown.
13:11:36 <arseniiv> okay I’ll be back several hours later I think
13:19:24 <wob_jonas> oh I see! you definitely have to write ьг with a frowning г, because otherwise it would look like ы
13:21:52 <arseniiv> oops I just realised I had misread “frowning” as “smiling”, hm
13:22:44 <wob_jonas> I may have confused them somwhere too
13:28:19 <wob_jonas> Yeah, no more letter г, so it looks like you always wrote it frowning. Though now I wonder how you'd write ог
13:40:21 <arseniiv> something like that: https://i.postimg.cc/4ytgjWhV/Screenshot-1607.png
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18:03:35 <moony> wob_jonas you watching the logs?
18:04:00 <moony> Would the tradeoff of 4 YMM registers be worth it to keep all 32 GPR accessable at a moment's notice?
18:04:41 <moony> (Aka so i don't have to worry about the GPR falling out of cache)
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18:14:16 <zzo38> My remote virtual table extension currently does not support encrypted connections, nor supporting authentication. Now I try to figure out, how should I fix this? Should a proxy be used?
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20:18:16 <esowiki> [[TEPCS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58224&oldid=58223 * Cortex * (+1)
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20:35:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re remote virtual table, I recommend to allow two things: for the same computer (but different process), use a PF_INET named socket, which you can put in an access-controlled directory, or use the sendmsg/recvmsg SO_PASSCRED to check the uid and gid of the other side of the connection. For remote connections,
20:37:25 <wob_jonas> use an optional SSL/TLS connection through a tcp socket, and expose the connection handle of the underlying SSL/TLS library (there's more than one option for that) to the user process so they can configure whatever options, including a sending a client certificate, and verifying from server/client side that the other side has one of a set of allowe
20:39:39 <wob_jonas> moony: I can't really tell, this depends on (1) the architecture of that CPU you're emulating, (2) the host cpu you require, (3) how exactly your emulator works, how much it needs other registers, how often does it need to free registers to call a non-emulated function, etc.
20:40:38 <wob_jonas> moony: I don't know enough of that cpu you're emulating and the programs running on it to even guess.
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20:41:00 <moony> i'll try it, maybe.
20:41:40 <wob_jonas> but reserving entire YMMs is very hard, because the calling conventions say that the top half of all YMM registers are caller-saved, so every function you call will modify them
20:42:10 <moony> I don't really need many XMMs at all
20:42:29 <moony> it literally would not hurt one bit to use 8 of the XMM registers for storage
20:42:31 <wob_jonas> moony: yes, but you don't have enough caller-saved XMM registers either, do you?
20:42:46 <wob_jonas> moony: it's not you, it's all functions you call from libraries
20:43:11 <moony> I AM using a nonstandard CC, which helps a bit. A lot of the library functions i'm going to use adhere to said custom CC
20:43:23 <wob_jonas> wait, let me check how the calling convention goes exactly (in Agner's docs; there's other official docs out there like the 64-bit ELF docs that explain this, but it's nigh-unreadable)
20:43:31 <moony> for the ones that dont, they arn't called very often, and wrapping them with saving isn't hard.
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20:46:17 <wob_jonas> moony: this isn't on windows, right? on x86_64 unix, every XMM register is scratch, so the caller has to save it
20:46:52 <wob_jonas> moony: this isn't on windows, right? on x86_64 unix, every XMM register is scratch, so the caller has to save it.
20:47:23 <moony> and i don't have a windows machine to dev on anyways even if i wanted to
20:50:22 <wob_jonas> moony: you'll probably have to have the JIT track which of those four YMM registers (if you decide to use YMM for this that is, I'm not sure that's a good idea) are swapped in to registers, and which are in RAM (presumably usually L1 cache) at which point.
20:50:52 <wob_jonas> and load them into register if you need it more than once, then swap it out to memory when you have to call external code.
20:51:37 <wob_jonas> it gets ugly, whether it's worth may depend on how long stretches of compiled code you expect to be able to run without interruption
20:54:18 <wob_jonas> do you expect to be able to compile jumps safely? is self-modifying code rare on this arch, and is code and writable data generally separated to different 4k pages, so you can detect writes to code by setting the pages containing code that you have compiled to read-only and trapping the fault?
20:54:59 <wob_jonas> Oh wait, you said you have to run complex code for memory accesses because you're emulating the cache, right?
20:55:08 <wob_jonas> In that case that won't be necessary, luckily.
20:55:16 <wob_jonas> You can just have your memory emulation handle it.
20:55:21 <wob_jonas> Unless you want a slow and a fast mode.
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21:03:30 <esowiki> [[TEPCS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58225&oldid=58224 * Cortex * (+60)
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21:05:03 <zzo38> How does a PF_INET named socket work and how is SO_PASSCRED work?
21:05:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, for local connections I mean a PF_UNIX named socket
21:05:58 <wob_jonas> do you know how that works at least?
21:06:28 <zzo38> I believe the man page explains it
21:06:29 <wob_jonas> sendmsg/recvmsg is ugly, it has a somewhat inconvenient API, although it's one you'll probably like
21:06:57 <wob_jonas> the bad part is only the rare case you'll almost never meet, which is reading multiple control messages at the same time, that's hard
21:08:13 <wob_jonas> basically with setsockopt thingies you can subscribe to various control or debug information about a socket, and then recvmsg gets as many of them as fit in the buffer, so if you get more than one type, you need some very stupid alignment calculation because they were too lazy to put a next link pointer in the messages
21:09:11 <wob_jonas> but for AF_LOCAL sockets, probably only two kinds of control messages make sense:
21:09:43 <wob_jonas> SOL_RIGHTS and SOL_CREDENTIALS, and you only need the latter here
21:12:57 <wob_jonas> The relevant docs are http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/setsockopt.2.html , http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/recvmsg.2.html , http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/sendmsg.2.html , http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/unix.7.html , and perhaps also socket(7), socket(2), bind(2), listen(2), connect(2), accept(2), etc.
21:13:32 <wob_jonas> There's also a parallel set of docs in http://man.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi which are organized differently, the interface you need is the same, but you can choose which docs you prefer.
21:14:42 <wob_jonas> (Not all interfaces are the same, but they don't differe in unexpected ways, it's just that certain obscure APIs are present in only some operating systems or versions, but they'll nicely give compile error or runtime error from the calls when you call them.
21:14:52 <wob_jonas> I don't think any differing interfaces are relevant here.)
21:15:04 <zzo38> I have read the the documents socket(2), bind(2), listen(2), connect(2), and accept(2) (I have them on my computer, so do not need to access those webpages), although this SQLite extension uses socket() and connect(); it is only the client and not the server.
21:15:25 <wob_jonas> sure, I can just link to the pages on the web more easily than what's on your computer
21:15:48 <wob_jonas> um... but you'll have to write a server too to try it, right?
21:16:02 <zzo38> Yes, and I did write a test server program in JavaScript to test it
21:16:40 <wob_jonas> anyway, as for SSL/TLS, I haven't worked with any SSL/TLS library directly, and there are like five different ones, at least three of which are still supported, and I don't know enough about them to be able to help
21:17:12 <wob_jonas> there's GnuTLS, NaCL, and two incompatible major versions of OpenSSL I think
21:17:19 <wob_jonas> probalby more that I don't know about
21:17:44 <wob_jonas> Welcome to the international cornucopia for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
21:17:56 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: Welcome to the international cornucopia for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
21:18:40 <wob_jonas> Should I write "the international pharmacopœia" instead?
21:18:59 <zzo38> I don't know if you should write that or not
21:20:49 <wob_jonas> sadly "cornucopœia" is apparently not a word
21:22:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Only Onion * New user account
21:33:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I assumed you'd just write a server that exposes a set of tables from an sqlite database read-only in a way that your remote virtual table client can connect to it.
21:34:20 <wob_jonas> And perhaps saves some log or debug information.
21:34:40 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I could do that (and it could be useful to do), although at first I just wrote a simple testing program.
21:36:26 <zzo38> This remote virtual table protocol does support writable tables too (as long as the primary key is no more than one column), although of course the server may wish to provide read-only data anyways.
21:37:09 <wob_jonas> That's nice, but I'm more interested in read-only.
21:38:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is this extension somewhere on your server? can I get an URL?
21:39:29 <zzo38> Yes. All of my SQLite extensions are in one ZIP file: http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlext.zip The file "sqlext_remote.c" implements the client, and "sqlext_remote.doc" is the documentation (including the description of the protocol).
21:43:47 <wob_jonas> and the sql/ directory isn't even in the gopher
21:45:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58226&oldid=58110 * Only Onion * (+227)
21:45:10 <wob_jonas> this means there are at least three roots for this forest on your server: the gopher root (which leads to textfile/ and quizmenu/ ), "http://zzo38computer.org/sql/" , and "http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/"
21:45:13 <zzo38> These extensions are mentioned in the topic message for the #sqlite channel in Freenode IRC.
21:51:35 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't have thought to look there, but ok
21:56:21 <esowiki> [[Surreal FOREVER loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58227&oldid=46223 * Only Onion * (+25) Linked Zeno, as its main feature is essentially this.
21:58:24 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58228&oldid=51801 * Only Onion * (+41) Linked a page that seems to describe the same concept as the zeno loop.
22:00:04 <moony> wob_jonas, well, it's probably going to be necessary. the most efficient and fastest way to handle a JIT'd memory block being modified while it's executing is to let the block continue until a check comes along, and then discard whatever it did when it hits the check
22:00:24 <moony> that means that i'll need a duplicate of the GPR and XR anyways
22:01:35 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58229&oldid=58217 * JonoCode9374 * (-33)
22:02:02 <wob_jonas> moony: sure, but only if the programs you have are modern and actually rarely write pages with code, and here pages means pages on the host OS, which will probably be 8k size
22:02:43 <wob_jonas> although you could waste some of the memory by leaving gaps in the emulated machine's memory as you map it to the host memory, but that's ugly
22:07:04 <zzo38> Did you read the document of the protocol? Did you see if it is good?
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22:13:25 <esowiki> [[Surreal FOREVER loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58230&oldid=58227 * Only Onion * (+2)
22:13:38 <esowiki> [[Zeno]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58231&oldid=58228 * Only Onion * (+2)
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22:16:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58232 * Salpynx * (+11233) getting these thoughts down in some form
22:16:05 <esowiki> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58233&oldid=58222 * Cortex * (+198)
22:24:27 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58234&oldid=58229 * JonoCode9374 * (+1)
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22:32:04 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58235&oldid=58232 * Salpynx * (+249) /* Quines */ link to Unary Quine
22:51:29 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58236&oldid=58180 * Salpynx * (+19) /* Mathematics */ Brainfoctal is Gdel numbering
23:19:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58237&oldid=58235 * Salpynx * (+212) Polyglots
23:20:20 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58238&oldid=58237 * Salpynx * (+1) /* Polyglots */
23:29:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58239&oldid=58234 * JonoCode9374 * (+3)
23:32:37 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58240&oldid=58239 * JonoCode9374 * (+95)
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23:54:17 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58241&oldid=58240 * JonoCode9374 * (+74)