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00:19:46 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58767&oldid=58766 * B jonas * (+8459)
00:27:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 202350Z 11010KT 080V150 CAVOK 01/M05 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 14013KT
00:29:12 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58768&oldid=58767 * B jonas * (+1029)
00:31:30 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58769&oldid=58768 * B jonas * (+117)
00:40:20 <b_jonas> ais523: now let me read your TC construction for Blindfolded arithmetic
00:41:07 <oerjan> . o O ( shouldn't you be reading that blindfolded? )
00:43:20 <b_jonas> ah I see, it's not ais532's construction actually
00:43:52 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58770&oldid=58769 * B jonas * (+17) /* External links */
00:56:12 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58771&oldid=53644 * Ais523 * (-143) /* External resources */ updated compiler, now handles all of printable ASCII!
01:17:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to think about the four-register version. I think it's possible.
01:18:17 <b_jonas> I just have to squash the state counter and the first stack into c.
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01:20:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yechar * New user account
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08:50:20 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58772&oldid=58771 * Ais523 * (+77) /* External resources */ TIO link
09:01:23 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58773&oldid=53609 * Ais523 * (+761) edit for accuracy, explaining why this doesn't work
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10:32:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] to [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]]: caps
10:33:15 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58776&oldid=58774 * Ais523 * (+0) caps
10:33:54 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58777&oldid=58680 * Ais523 * (+28) one of my languages got added by someone else
10:34:48 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58778&oldid=58776 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Definition */ Blindfolded Arithmetic can actually /output/ negative and zero integers, but only /input/ positive integers
10:41:45 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58779&oldid=58778 * Ais523 * (-1) /* General structure of compilation */ fix mismatched tags
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11:21:03 <wob_jonas> In the US, why did the media guys push for a longer copyright term, instead of just pushing for a fixed term after the death of the author, and then maintain Walt Disney's cryogenic chamber in a state where it's plausibly deniable that he's known to be dead?
11:23:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'll document the four registers construction later. It's not hard, but I have to do other stuff now.
11:23:42 <wob_jonas> Also, the extra registers are still useful, because you can put extra stacks on them, which speeds up reverse and sort operations a lot.
11:40:05 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58780&oldid=58779 * B jonas * (+611) /* Four variables */ +Spare registers
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12:07:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm tantalizingly close to getting it done with /two/ (without I/O, obviously)
12:08:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: look at this: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/18.txt
12:09:20 <ais523> being able to divmod by a Mersenne prime seems like the sort of basic construct which will be useful, although I haven't found a way to get from there to TCness yet
12:09:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: I won't look yet because I don't want it spoiled. I'm trying to think about this still. I'm already sure about the four variable construction, I just haven't documented it yet, and want to give a bit more thought to it.
12:09:48 <ais523> I'm sure about three-without-I/O
12:10:19 <ais523> btw, at some point we're going to have to move all the Blindfolded Arithmetic proofs onto subpages, I think
12:10:32 <ais523> I never did post mine (because you're meant to keep it secret until someone cracks the language)
12:10:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: on the other hand, if this was a real machine, I'd recommend its creator to get rid of all the mechanism for multiply and divide, and put in a more useful but easier to implement instruction, say v_0 = (v_1 < 0) * v_2, and
12:11:00 <ais523> come to think of it, I may as well post my proof for 6
12:11:37 <ais523> here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic.md
12:11:51 <wob_jonas> then they can also have each instruction execute in constant time, which probably simplifies the control a bit (though probably not much because the instructions are on a rotating disk which is unpredictable anyway)
12:12:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: weren't you supposed to keep it secret until someone cracks the language OR one week passes, and the one week passed long ago?
12:12:48 <ais523> yes, but if I mark it safe it'll be a winning entry, and the almost-crack that was posted is close enough that I don't want to win like that
12:13:03 <ais523> disclosing my solution offsite seems like a reasonable workaround to that
12:14:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: two registers seems tricky, but I have an idea to get down to three registers, and I want to think about it before reading your spoilers
12:14:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm, should I modify that solution to be entirely correct then so you can mark it as accepted?
12:15:27 <ais523> I'm not sure, this is something of a grey area; I think that such an edit would be treated as equivalent to a golfing edit, thus disallowed
12:15:29 <wob_jonas> it's not hard, because his solution is similar to mine for five and four registers in general
12:15:39 <ais523> you could post your own crack if it's substantially different from the existing one
12:15:53 <wob_jonas> but my solution wouldn't be substantially different
12:15:59 <ais523> actually, I had a second language in mind for that challenge
12:16:08 <ais523> the problem is I never proved it I/O-complete (only Turing-complete)
12:16:25 <wob_jonas> I'm still using two stacks, and the details about how I store the state counter don't make much of a difference
12:16:47 <wob_jonas> in fact how I store the state counter is the main difference between the four register and five register solution
12:17:46 <wob_jonas> while the fifth register helps me simplify my proof, the sixth doesn't, it only lets me write more efficient programs than is required for turing completeness
12:18:05 <wob_jonas> oh, and I also missed non-positive outputs at first, so I'll fix my description on the wiki for that
12:22:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the description, yes, but not in the compilation construction
12:22:58 <wob_jonas> that one needs special mention because me and the solver on golf SE both try to keep i always positive so that b = i / i; always works
12:23:29 <wob_jonas> which is convenient because at the start of the program, the other registers are zero, so we can't construct a nonzero number without i
12:24:36 <wob_jonas> this is not a problem of course, since we can do a conditional i = 1 - i then halt very quickly, but it still has to be mentioned
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12:58:01 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58781&oldid=58780 * Ais523 * (+95) /* External links */ my own TCness proof
12:59:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: you can host that on the wiki
12:59:35 <wob_jonas> a proof for the wiki is definitely on topic there
13:00:34 <ais523> I know, but it's better to have it linked until someone gets around to translating it into MediaWiki syntax
13:00:51 <ais523> (I've had bad experiences with automated Markdown → MediaWiki compilers)
13:01:07 <wob_jonas> ok. this one doesn't have much formatting so it should be easy.
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13:43:55 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58782&oldid=58781 * B jonas * (+5769) /* Proof of Turing-completeness */ Ais523's Turing-completeness proof
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14:25:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: it seems that your six-register proof uses a control structure somewhat similar to mine, but you use three counters instead of two stacks, which simplifies the description
14:25:22 <wob_jonas> that is actually a good way to use six registers to get a simpler proof
14:25:46 <wob_jonas> even if it's not one I would prefer to give
14:27:23 <wob_jonas> and apparently you're using sequentially numbered states
14:35:01 <ais523> yes, there was no real reason not to
14:35:19 <ais523> three counters means that you can do the I/O encoding "inside" the system
14:35:29 <wob_jonas> sure, it may be more efficient than gotos all the time
14:35:31 <ais523> which makes things much simpler
14:35:48 <wob_jonas> two or three or four stacks also mean that
14:35:58 <wob_jonas> then I can even do IO encoding bitwise
14:36:17 <wob_jonas> it gets a bit more complicated if I want nonpositive outputs, but not by much
14:36:39 <ais523> anyway, I should go to bed really, or at least try
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14:36:51 <wob_jonas> I'll document that part, and the four register construction, and try to think about the three registers
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18:19:30 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58783&oldid=58782 * B jonas * (-7) /* Compiling individual steps */
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20:06:59 <b_jonas> economy explains why the goods and services you buy are low quality and overpriced, and removes all your hope that you'll ever be able to buy high quality goods or services for cheap
20:09:40 <b_jonas> Do you think there may come a time when microSD cards become so cheap that nobody will bother printing manuals or labels to anything, they'll just tape on a microSD card?
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20:24:18 <zzo38> It won't help, since then you will need a computer that can read the file, and the electricity to run the computer (it won't work during a power outage, even if you do have a suitable computer).
20:24:20 <Luciole> I'm not sure it'd be EU regulation compliant
20:25:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: we'll have mobile phones that can read the file.
20:26:00 <b_jonas> perhaps it won't exactly be microSD, but some other form of digital data storage.
20:26:13 <zzo38> No, you might not. And even if you do the battery might run out.
20:27:00 <Luciole> why distribute a microSD card if you can just print a QR code that leads to a website with relevant manuals etc
20:27:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: for those cases, the store might have some devices fixed on the wall, just like how some big supermarkets today have self-serving barcode readers connected to the shop inventory computers to tell the price of any item from a barcode
20:27:13 <Luciole> and then you can just scan it with your phone in the supermarket
20:27:18 <Luciole> kinda surprised that isn't a thing already
20:28:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that could work. It may help if you want to read the manual before opening the box, but it should not substitute for manuals and visible price tags, I should think
20:29:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, if there needs to be information printed outside the box, that can happen too. or that can be replaced by a microSD card too.
20:29:46 <b_jonas> of course it gets hairy when every leaf of ten pills in a pharmaeutical must have the exact type and expiry date printed on it
20:29:56 <b_jonas> presumably it won't replace everything
20:30:00 <b_jonas> just some of the larger manuals
20:30:14 <b_jonas> the largest ones are already distributed on CDs, mind you
20:30:44 <b_jonas> a CD is still cheaper than an SD card, but only by a factor of 2 or 4
20:30:57 <b_jonas> more like a factor of 5 or 10
20:31:53 <zzo38> Not all of the information can fit on the outside of the box. Some information can be printed there, but perhaps can help to use this microSD so that you can access information that is not printed on the box because it does not fit. Although probably there should still be some manual, unless it is needing for a computer program that has the built-in manual that is suitable
20:32:00 <b_jonas> but a CD, even a small size CD, is too large
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20:50:11 <HackEso> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
21:37:54 <b_jonas> ground water is water ground to a fine powder
22:16:56 <b_jonas> ais523: another question is whether Blindfolded Arithmetic is still TC without multiplication, if you allow a large enough number of registers
22:49:56 <int-e> b_jonas: it seems so; division is really powerful. For example, one can multiply x by a in {1,2} using the expression (x+x)/(3-a), which covers the translations of push.
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23:11:34 <b_jonas> int-e: the hard part is how to do conditionals
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