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00:29:32 <shachaf> Zero-suppressed binary Decision Diagrams.
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00:44:07 <oerjan> . o O ( oren ist ein Hamburger )
00:48:29 <oerjan> after last girl genius update i was sort of wonder if that was the end of a book, but it seems not...
00:49:33 <shachaf> I was in your time zone but now I'm back home.
00:49:45 <shachaf> But my sleep is still in your time zone. But maybe your sleep is in my time zone?
00:52:29 <oerjan> also, they actually gave an approximate time period for Albia's memory, the way they kept saying "long ago" until now i thought they were going to avoid it...
00:52:50 <oerjan> shachaf: sounds about right.
00:53:31 <oerjan> no i hate them despite never having heard of them before, they're just that bad hth
00:54:27 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:55:24 <shachaf> swrjan s/His ark-nemesis is Noah/His arch-nemesis is Shin-ichi MINATO/
00:55:39 <shachaf> But it's probably just as well I didn't.
00:55:58 <shachaf> inventor of ZDDs, i think hth
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01:36:06 <moony> shachaf, give me a eli5 of zdds
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02:33:36 <esowiki> [[Flatland]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58853 * Bubbler * (+2545) Created page with "The '''Flatland''' language operates on a 2D plane of instructions, but it is ''not'' grid-based (as opposed to [[Befunge]] and [[Fish|><>]]). Rather, the execution paths are..."
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08:47:10 <zzo38> Is there the way in Linux to clone a process so that the clone is suspending the parent like CLONE_VFORK and sharing the same memory like CLONE_VM but also shares all registers (including the program counter)? In this case it will not be useful with clone() but can be used with sys_clone, and the assumption that _exit() never returns is invalid. Also, execve() might return even if successful, which it normally can't.
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13:21:37 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58854&oldid=58838 * Areallycoolusername * (+26)
13:22:36 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58855&oldid=58833 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-4)
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15:40:42 <oerjan> i see Brain:D is even more braindead than i first surmised.
15:42:19 <oerjan> at first i thought the lack of mention of spaces was just a small mistake.
15:47:58 <int-e> oh it's one of these write-only languages
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15:53:59 <myname> how do you even interpret that?
15:59:32 <int-e> you make a lucky guess, and then you start running
16:00:39 <int-e> that, or you make a global registry mapping program lengths to their intended parse
16:00:53 <int-e> ... this will seriously mess up golfing competitions.
16:14:48 <oerjan> i've seen people golf in unary
16:15:19 <oerjan> aka lenguage and a heap of other names
16:20:12 <int-e> *looks* Yeah that's different. Lenguage is Brainfuck golfing with a lexicographic comparison of programs on top, so [+] is better than [-].
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17:17:22 <esowiki> [[Dunke!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+1308) Language
17:19:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58857&oldid=58852 * Areallycoolusername * (+13) /* D */
17:21:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58858&oldid=58857 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* D */
17:24:22 <esowiki> [[Dunke!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58859&oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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17:34:47 <b_jonas> imode: about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture"
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18:06:46 <b_jonas> @tell imode about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture"
18:09:53 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (+1273) Created page with "DukkTap is an esoteric programming language that acts like a piece of duck tape. it's inspired by a idea in the idea list sectrion of esolang. DukkTap has 6 commands {| class..."
18:10:26 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58861&oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
18:11:23 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58862&oldid=58379 * Areallycoolusername * (+26) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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18:16:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58863&oldid=58858 * Areallycoolusername * (+14) /* D */
18:18:41 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58864&oldid=58861 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
18:29:27 <imode> yooo, thanks for the article. :)
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19:33:41 <imode> what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions? lambda calculus assumes an implicit local set of variable bindings, combinatory logic assumes an implicit conversion of trinary/binary functions to unary ones during evaluation, turing machines assume a state table, tape, read/write head, and a set of symbols...
19:34:26 <arseniiv> imode: what do Markov algorithms assume?
19:35:04 <imode> markov algorithms and thue systems assume an ever-expanding string, a set of symbols, and either an unordered or an ordered set of ordered pairs of rules.
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19:35:48 <arseniiv> ah, I seem to start understanding the topic
19:36:12 <arseniiv> though I’m still unable to say something useful on it
19:37:32 <imode> something that bothers me is that LC/CL is phrased as "the smallest model of computation", when they aren't: they make implicit assumptions that need to be made explicit when they're actually evaluated.
19:37:58 <imode> combinatory logic at least is smaller than the lambda calculus, as it doesn't suffer from the weight of implicit variable bindings.
19:38:23 <imode> but I really wonder what's the "smallest" when everything's made explicit.
19:39:56 <b_jonas> imode: look at some of the crazy ones that ais523 cares about, especially the ones related to counter machines
19:40:30 <imode> something that bothers me about those is the idea that they presuppose the natural numbers.
19:41:02 <arseniiv> shouldn’t we presuppose something unbounded in all cases?
19:41:04 <imode> you start with something powerful then you artificially limit yourself. you have to then sidestep everything by an encoding.
19:41:44 <b_jonas> imode: not at full power. ultrafinitism isn't enough, but you only need to go a few exponentials to see that they work
19:41:49 <arseniiv> to me natural numbers seem very bland of all unbounded things used for computation :)
19:42:11 <arseniiv> or not very, but at least sufficiently
19:42:14 <imode> there's all sorts of properties about them that you get for free, though. primes spring to mind, which is how godel numbering came about.
19:42:20 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58865&oldid=58651 * Ais523 * (+1392) /* The Amnesiac from Minsk */ add
19:43:11 <imode> overall it just seems inelegant. presupposing the naturals kind of brings in a package of assumptions as well.
19:45:18 <arseniiv> but we can encode them anyway and encode all the things needed for Gödel encoding, so is their complexity not imaginary?
19:46:09 <imode> you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example.
19:48:54 <arseniiv> …in comparison to other things used for computations
19:48:55 <arseniiv> you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. => ah hm. But in what cases we have to resort to it? For counter machines, one could use Cantor encoding of pairs and other tuples which doesn’t use primes in its construction
19:49:18 <imode> I am now interested. tell me more.
19:49:58 <imode> never heard of cantor encoding of pairs.
19:50:57 <b_jonas> you mean like (x,y) => choose(x+y,2)+y ?
19:51:22 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58866&oldid=58843 * Areallycoolusername * (+25)
19:51:42 <arseniiv> I remember there were squares in there and the projection functions were not so complicated
19:51:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: binomial coefficient
19:51:57 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function#Cantor_pairing_function
19:52:25 <imode> I never knew about this.
19:53:14 <imode> that seems pretty... out there. in order to work with it, you need to have a firm grasp of the properties of natural numbers, which draws in multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, square roots..
19:54:04 <imode> floor, exponentials..
19:54:19 <b_jonas> then there's the (x,y) -> (2**x + (2*y+1)) encoding, and the other Cantor encoding (square-shaped, not triangle-shaped) that (0) uses
19:55:18 <imode> that is pretty ballin', though.
19:55:57 <imode> I dunno. I don't see the case for machines that presuppose the natural numbers, but I could use some more convincing. it's definitely not an area that I've explored to a great degree.
19:56:33 <arseniiv> imode: I think the way using all those is just a simpler one to compactly derive, write and calculate and all that but isn’t necessary. We could establish that the pairing is a bijection and that the projections are increasing, so there’s a simple boring algorithm to calculate them
19:56:56 <arseniiv> it would be all long and no fun
19:57:02 <imode> that sounds like fun to me.
19:57:23 <arseniiv> :D I haven’t done that by myself though
19:58:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: look at David Madore's comment on the specific pairing relation he chose for (0)
19:58:10 <b_jonas> there's a particular reason for that
19:58:12 <arseniiv> also I think it’s almost alike Kuratowski and others pair constructions in set theory
19:58:42 <arseniiv> ah, (0) is an esolang? Will look at
19:59:01 <imode> my issue as well is that the operations you'd consider useful to do _actual_ work, in some sense, are very far removed from the operations you actually get with a counter machine.
19:59:10 <imode> you have to mangle increment and decrement in some sense.
19:59:47 <arseniiv> > (0) has only one basic data type, ordinal numbers => you gotta be kidding
19:59:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, (0) is an esolang
19:59:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: error: parse error on input ‘data’
20:00:38 <arseniiv> (btw how do I quote here without disturbing lambdabot’s sleep?)
20:00:56 <b_jonas> Blame David for the lack of good names for all but one of his esolangs
20:01:47 <b_jonas> ► try triangle for quoting
20:02:59 <imode> so you have a model that presupposes you understand enough about the natural numbers to encode useful ideas. the weight of those assumptions outweighs turing machines already.
20:07:58 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58867&oldid=58865 * Ais523 * (-1) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk */ caps
20:07:59 <b_jonas> imode: maybe if you could tell what is it that you do want to presuppose, it would be easier to tell what computation model suits them the best. Descartes's silly little thing? Euclides's straightline and compass? The ZFC axioms?
20:08:27 <HackEso> 374) <monqy> it was a wonderful dream <monqy> i died in it <monqy> that's how it started
20:08:33 <HackEso> 1135) <shachaf> i'm from space.........chu space
20:08:34 <imode> I'm not sure! hence I'm just wondering.
20:08:51 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58868&oldid=54286 * Ais523 * (+140) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk, level 1 */ hello world
20:09:30 <imode> hence why I asked "what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions?"
20:10:05 <imode> what was that about descartes?
20:10:11 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58869&oldid=58868 * Ais523 * (+136) implemented
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20:11:35 <b_jonas> dunno, maybe something about someone offering him a drink on an airplane, or stupidity and the size of the universe
20:12:18 <b_jonas> sorry, bad attempts of pop culture injokes
20:14:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: if I understand David Madore’s post right, he defined pair(x, y) = if x < y then y^2 + x else x^2 + x + y?
20:15:07 <arseniiv> I have no hope to understand the motives, though
20:17:35 <arseniiv> (though I didn’t get one about a drink)
20:23:33 <imode> we need the computational equivalent of a compass and a straightedge.
20:31:09 <arseniiv> I’m afraid as the elementary geometry is proven a complete and sound theory it shouldn’t allow one to base Turing-complete computation models on itself IMO
20:31:45 <arseniiv> and compass and straightedge don’t exceed its bounds
20:33:35 <imode> heh, I didn't mean literally... but that brings to mind: what would a turing complete geometry look like?
20:39:32 <imode> maybe something akin to tiling?
20:48:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: only when x and y are natural numbers
20:49:07 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the definition is more complicated in the extended case when the pairing function and (0) works over all ordinals
20:49:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: David's comment on the same post explains the motives for the pairing function
20:49:50 <b_jonas> that doesn't mean that it's the one true pairing function for everything, there are different goals you may want for a pairing function, that's why there are so many good ones
20:50:37 <imode> I am now curious as to the application of tilings to an evaluation strategy for combinatory logic.
20:52:10 <b_jonas> imode: this comment specifically http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23779
20:54:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah thanks, I’ve finally found it!
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22:25:11 <imode> is 1D wang tiling turing complete?
22:28:19 <imode> makes sense. what's the power of them, then? off the top of my head you could perhaps simulate a single stack machine.
22:39:05 <rain1> I think they are somewhat trivial
22:39:30 <rain1> you can rather easily decide if a set of 1d tiles will have a finite or infinite cover
22:39:44 <rain1> you just need to find a cycle
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22:57:28 <b_jonas> imode: no, but there's something close to it that is, with two one-dimensional tilings and the tiles in them matching in sequence ... whatever is the name of that
22:58:05 <b_jonas> it's called Post correspondance problem I think
22:58:25 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c
22:58:43 <HackEso> 2/2:e, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
22:58:47 <HackEso> 1/2:Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidenc
22:58:57 <b_jonas> correspondance isn't common enough to go to that short truncated list
22:59:32 <b_jonas> and it's actually spelled corespondence
23:00:06 <b_jonas> as it should be obvious to anyone for etymology reasons, because all that spelling comes from old French and Latin
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