00:10:56 <imode> computing by self assembly is my new thing to get excited about.
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00:26:22 <imode> what is considered more fundamental: uniform spaces or arbitrary spaces?
00:27:12 <imode> arbitrary graphs vs. lattices, I suppose.
00:29:16 <imode> part of me says that grids and spaces are more fundamental, but part of me says that arbitrary graphs can express arbitrary topologies, and that includes grids and spaces.
00:30:22 <imode> been leaning more towards the former, because any graph needs to be embedded in something to have any kind of meaning.
00:30:41 <imode> so your first choice of space has to be something like uniform 2D or 3D or 1D space.
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01:22:37 <int-e> Okay, people don't seem to believe that ⊕P is hard, and have some evidence to the contrary. "P^⊕P is not known to even contain NP." ""there is a relativized universe where P = ⊕P ≠ NP = PP = EXPTIME" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parity_P
01:23:10 <int-e> And I learned about Toda's theorem. Fun stuff.
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02:05:06 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think they believe it's actually in P, as that would imply PH in BPP by the other toda's theorem fact mentioned
02:06:45 <int-e> No, but they do seem to believe that it's easier than #P.
02:12:38 <int-e> But actually it's quite hard to find anything tangible when it comes to relating ⊕P and #P.
02:18:08 <int-e> "⊕P contains the graph isomorphism problem" is obviously relevant.
02:20:14 <int-e> oerjan: did you see http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ ?
02:21:01 <int-e> (SK combinatory logic as a queue automaton... discussion from last night... morning... whatever)
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02:31:09 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's not relevant. graph isomorphism is probably in P
02:31:23 <int-e> b_jonas: it is relevant because we don't know that yet
02:31:55 <int-e> b_jonas: so in particular there is no parity-preserving polynomial time reduction from #SAT to permanents.
02:32:12 <b_jonas> hmm, I guess that does make it relevant
02:40:08 <oerjan> int-e: shouldn't line 47 have a ` at the beginning of the inserted string?
02:41:46 <int-e> oerjan: nope, 3 has only 2 consumed `.
02:42:02 <int-e> oerjan: an evil trick, I'll admit.
02:42:23 <int-e> oerjan: note that line 41 doesn't erase the `
02:44:16 <lambdabot> LOWI 290220Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW090 M04/M05 Q1031
02:47:54 <b_jonas> learn The cold never bothered me anyway.
02:49:46 <HackEso> 902) <zzo38> I do study philosophy of much.
02:55:10 <HackEso> 203) * quintopia sits on gregor
02:55:21 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
02:57:07 <HackEso> klein bottle//A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
02:57:12 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:57:32 <HackEso> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
02:57:44 <HackEso> dingbat//dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft.
02:57:52 <HackEso> b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
02:58:04 <b_jonas> oh, that nonsense is still there
02:58:07 <HackEso> cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs*
02:58:11 <HackEso> urbandictionary//Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
02:58:21 <HackEso> 694) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
02:58:56 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/g/s/
02:59:19 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/.g/Es/
02:59:42 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
02:59:56 <b_jonas> New Zealand was invented by Jules Verne, to give a starting location for the novel Deux ans des vacances.
02:59:58 <int-e> but perhaps that would make it historically incorrect
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03:00:38 <lambdabot> HER3 we 4Re, pINKy--aT +H3 da\/\/n 0f TIME!
03:00:44 <lambdabot> The game does not conclude until the woman with the eating disorder ululates.
03:01:27 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackego
03:01:28 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:02:01 <HackEso> 1/2:575) <Pavitra> That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count. \ 978) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric \ 436) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'. \ 1132) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
03:02:04 <HackEso> 2/2: \ 810) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
03:02:16 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei lambdabot
03:02:17 <HackEso> 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 494) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver s
03:02:46 <HackEso> 352) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k
03:03:05 <HackEso> 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
03:03:11 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:03:16 <int-e> embedding quote numbers in a quote is evil.
03:03:38 <int-e> b_jonas: except for the -i perhaps
03:03:50 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackeso
03:03:51 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:04:09 <int-e> I [sic] didn't know that.
03:04:28 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei "hacke[^g]"
03:04:28 <HackEso> 852) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc! \ 974) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toile
03:05:42 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei geordi
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03:44:48 <oerjan> int-e: i think you can merge S4 with one of S1 or S2
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03:48:22 <oerjan> actually K0 and K1 look mergeable
03:52:59 <int-e> mm. willl think about it after sleep
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04:34:31 <imode> there's a desirable attribute of a theory in physics called background independence. it's the idea that the theory is independent of any given "background", or shape or space. in general relativity, for example, the "shape" of space is indirect.
04:36:06 <imode> it's nice because it reduces your assumptions. rather than working with specific surfaces or manifolds, you have to worry very little about the overall structure of what the objects of your theory are riding on.
04:36:51 <imode> wang tiling, or similar space-oriented models of computing, is pretty simple, but relies on a fixed background, that of the 2D euclidean plane.
04:38:04 <imode> granted there can be 3D wang "cubes", as well as 1D wang "strings" of various computational powers, but they always assume some kind of regular rectangular lattice as the "backdrop".
04:40:00 <imode> turing machines also assume a "background": the space that contains the tape and the read/write head. for CL/LC, it's the space of the expression.
04:41:20 <imode> my question is, what does a "background-independent" model of computation look like? I posit that it looks something like a cellular automaton, and as a result I posit that wang tiles can be "freed" of their background.
04:43:32 <imode> my reasoning is that cellular automata only require a definition of "points in space" and the concept of a neighbor.
05:06:54 <esowiki> [[TOWCBL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58875 * ShareMan * (+4530) Completed part of the page on TOWCBL
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09:55:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superstrijder15 * New user account
10:00:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58876&oldid=58847 * Superstrijder15 * (+547) /* Introductions */
10:16:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58877&oldid=19914 * Superstrijder15 * (+756) /* Missing syntax info */ new section
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12:57:44 <HackEso> FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape.
12:58:30 <b_jonas> fungot, did our hon. and learned ancestors wrote programs in FORTRAN on punch cards?
12:58:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i was the minister, the fear, the terror of the refugees, among the many attending the local gps and pharmacies free in the uk but, shockingly, the report uncovers the challenges, the government have
12:58:46 <HackEso> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
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13:00:11 <int-e> Surely C is not that ba^%*@13Segmentation fault. Core dumped.
13:00:58 <b_jonas> is FORTRAN named from that because "FOR" is the keyword it's using for counter loops?
13:01:37 <int-e> I'm pretty sure "FOR" is for "FORMULA"
13:02:19 <int-e> because you could actually write x+y instead of LOAD x, ADD y
13:08:51 <fizzie> And the "TRAN" is at least said to be from "translation".
13:20:42 <b_jonas> sure, it translates counter loops to increment, compare, and jump underneath
13:21:41 <b_jonas> and sometimes decrease instead of increase, if it's a backwards counter loop
13:22:33 <esowiki> [[Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58878&oldid=26089 * Salpynx * (+30) /* External resources */ update specification link to archived version
13:23:10 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm afraid you're not absurd enough to be funny and your etymology is almost certainly wrong.
13:24:16 <b_jonas> it has nothing to do with the name "FORTRAN", I just figured that "for" is another of those strange syntaxes that fortran and C popularized so much that everyone knows those counter loops are "for" loops even when they don't program fortran or C
13:24:55 <b_jonas> it's like equals signs for assignment: FORTRAN and C won over smalltalk and APL, so we use an equals sign, not a left arrow
13:25:06 <int-e> don't forget Pascal, BASIC, and Modula
13:25:22 <int-e> (regarding for loops)
13:25:41 <b_jonas> sure, Pascal and BASIC probably inherited those keywords from FORTRAN
13:26:05 <b_jonas> I think of FORTRAN and C as the more popular and influential languages, rather than BASIC and Pascal
13:26:14 <b_jonas> I know almost nothing about Modula
13:26:23 <int-e> who'd have thought that an early programming language could be so influential...
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13:27:40 <int-e> Modula is similar to Pascal but adds a module system. It came out too late; I believe that in practice Turbo Pascal's units have seen a lot more use.
13:29:43 <fizzie> I believe ALGOL (which is roughly contemporary with FORTRAN) was pretty influential too, and it also uses "for".
13:30:00 <int-e> for whatever reason
13:30:01 <fizzie> Sadly, the practice of using typeface (or underlining) to distinguish keywords didn't really get picked up from ALGOL.
13:30:28 <int-e> > nub "kjhalksdha"
13:30:49 <int-e> Most programmers like short words.
13:30:52 <fizzie> I used to have a book that told you how to mechanistically translate between FORTRAN 2, FORTRAN 4 and ALGOL 60, for a few different machines.
13:31:01 <fizzie> Picked it up from the discard pile of the university library.
13:31:27 <b_jonas> FORTRAN and C were influential about syntax. smalltalk and lisp were much less so. even when languages use dynamic allocation and object orientation with prototypes and overridable methods and instance variables like smalltalk, they barely take any of smalltalk's syntax.
13:32:03 <b_jonas> the vertical bars of rust originate from smalltalk through ruby, but note that smalltalk uses them for declaring local variables, but ruby and rust uses them for declaring formal parameters.
13:32:18 <b_jonas> and perhaps the "let" keyword comes from lisp
13:33:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: I did use underlining for some keywords when I made paper backups of some of my programs on the SHARP EL-5120 calculator. that calculator represents keywords as single bytes in the program, and the editor edits them as if they were single characters of up to 6 cells wide on the display
13:34:15 <b_jonas> keywords include "GOTO " and "exp "
13:35:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58879&oldid=58877 * Salpynx * (+489) /* Missing syntax info */ check out the updated resources section
13:38:10 <b_jonas> and of course C popularized the & and | for bitwise and logical operators, even to languages like rust that don't use C precedence order
13:40:26 <b_jonas> also ^ and << and >> for bitwise xor and bitshifts respectively
14:01:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
14:01:35 <int-e> @tell imode update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
14:01:46 <int-e> . o O ( @tell is not useful for spamming )
14:01:55 <b_jonas> it's allowed in 17 states, or forbidden in 17 states?
14:02:40 <b_jonas> and which state finally gave in? LA?
14:04:12 <int-e> now why doesn't that paste have syntax hilighting?
14:07:55 <HackEso> bezout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has is equal to the product of one less than the degrees of the polynomials. \ bézout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has
14:08:08 <HackEso> INCOMPREHENSIBLE? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:08:20 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a MYSTERY
14:08:36 <fungot> int-e: there is a need, therefore, the more we will be accused of and held the world land speed record. he is to be enormously proud to be the only one, in the house,
14:08:37 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
14:09:24 <b_jonas> hmm, have I also added one about
14:09:29 <HackEso> rademacher's theorem? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:09:37 <b_jonas> I keep forgetting what it is
14:09:43 <b_jonas> but then I also keep forgetting what its name is
14:09:56 <b_jonas> luckily the wisdom database is searchable
14:09:58 <int-e> @google reidemeister moves
14:09:59 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reidemeister_move
14:10:19 <int-e> wow the images at the top are atrocious
14:10:40 <arseniiv> dear fungot don’t you maybe know why I have almost no memory left when updating Win7 on VirtualBox and it’s nowhere to be indicated that it is VirtualBox’s processes that demand so much of it
14:10:41 <fungot> arseniiv: at the very least, the government get the short-term and that the issues of the most concern the minister that the government will
14:11:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
14:11:12 <arseniiv> I can’t even open my beloved^W firefox now
14:12:09 <arseniiv> is youtube style interesting? what data does it use?
14:12:11 <fizzie> fungot: The government will what?
14:12:11 <fungot> fizzie: to my british partners and have undermined the ability of the government to
14:12:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: try to open it with the --no-remote --ProfileManager parameters, or whatever the equivalent of they are for your version of firefox, since they keep changing command-line syntax
14:12:27 <fizzie> fungot: The government to WHAT? Why do you stop like that.
14:12:27 <fungot> fizzie: have the government made the decision, with the ability to make the public any knowledge.
14:12:52 <fizzie> arseniiv: It's not particularly good, it's based on semi-manually scraped comments from a handful of videos someone gave me.
14:13:07 <fizzie> arseniiv: From what I recall, it's mostly about plane crashes and maybe 9/11 conspiracy theories.
14:13:11 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
14:13:15 <fizzie> fungot: Steel beams, jet fuel.
14:13:15 <fungot> fizzie: i know is metal gear, but this was a ok movie about 30 minutes until the time this releases. i posted the same
14:13:26 <fizzie> Well, that's probably a different video.
14:13:57 <arseniiv> (I want my memory back, vile VirtualBox!)
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14:15:30 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what I'm being thanked for
14:15:35 <lambdabot> arseniiv said 5h 19m 22s ago: thank you!
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15:14:00 <ais523> a new IOCCC has just started, btw: mentioning it here because I know many #esoteric denizens are interested in obfuscated coding
15:14:16 <ais523> deadline is in March, so there's plenty of time to write submissions
15:16:18 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the international corncob for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | 2019 IOCCC ends March 15th -- http://www.ioccc.org/2019/rules.txt | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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15:26:18 <b_jonas> and yes, I'm interested. perhaps more so than in esoteric languages.
15:33:26 <ais523> Gregor won the IOCCC one year
15:33:34 <HackEso> cat: 'wisdom/footnote ': No such file or directory
15:33:35 <ais523> so this channel does have some success
15:33:49 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/footnote*
15:33:50 <HackEso> wisdom/footnote 1 wisdom/footnote 8
15:33:56 <HackEso> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes⁺?
15:35:00 <fizzie> The win was in the "Most surprisingly portable" category, which was nice.
15:36:53 <b_jonas> I don't get it. Guidelines say "| The reason for the time of day due to Erdős, an amazing mathematician / ! that at least one of the IOCCC judges had the pleasure of working with."
15:37:21 <b_jonas> what's the exclamation mark for, and how does the times of the day above connect to him?
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15:53:53 <b_jonas> there should be a pun in that entry, using the double meaning of "standard" between technology standards and the stuff that the small Flagbearer carries, and the double meaning of "target" between what you compile to and the M:tG technical meaning
15:54:32 <b_jonas> like, you port your code to target the standard if possible, or cast your spell to target the standard if possible
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15:56:34 <int-e> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erd%C5%91s%E2%80%93Borwein_constant and https://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php/160669.html are relevant for the 16:06:69.
16:07:00 <b_jonas> wait... guidelines also says "the speaker of your national pariliment". is that apparent typo deliberate?
16:07:20 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend, do you ever speak in your national pariliment?
16:07:31 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you ever speak in your national pariliment?
16:07:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i hope you die of god damn cancer you're so ignorant and rude and stupid. who taught you that.
16:15:56 <oren> 1 cup salted butter, 1/2 cup sugar, 2 cup flour.
16:16:08 <oren> leave butter to soften to room temperature then mix in sugar until homogenous. then sift in flour and mix again. form into a ball and cool in the fridge for 10 minutes, then roll to 1 cm thick and cut into cookies. bake 20 min at 325 degrees F, cool 10 min and bake again same thing.
16:19:04 <oren> shrtbred cookies
16:19:15 <b_jonas> "sift in flour"? seriously?
16:19:49 <oren> b_jonas: is that the correct verb for pouring the flour thru a sieve?
16:20:36 <oren> I think the point is to prevent the flour from clumping
16:20:45 <HackEso> Sift \ 3U \ Sorcery \ Draw three cards, then discard a card. \ ST-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, A25-C \ \ Sift Through Sands \ 1UU \ Instant -- Arcane \ Draw two cards, then discard a card. \ If you've cast a spell named Peer Through Depths and a spell named Reach Through Mists this turn, you may search your library for a card named The Unspeakable, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. \ CHK-C, DDS-C \ \ Sifter Wurm \ 5GG \ Creature -- Wurm \ 7/7 \
16:25:14 <oren> This recipe is formed by taking some recipe from online and using only the ingredients we actually had namely butter, sugar, flour
16:47:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I've given up on the 8607 or 0.8607 or whatever the second time of day is.
16:49:03 <int-e> (0.8607 turns up in a PhD thesis on phase transitions in random graphs that cites Erdos, but that's not convincing.)
16:50:58 <int-e> though the exact expression looks impressive. https://edoc.hu-berlin.de/bitstream/handle/18452/16311/seierstad.pdf is that thesis.
17:02:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:03:49 <lambdabot> int-e said 3h 2m 22s ago: update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
17:09:24 <oerjan> int-e: -- &: skip over remainder of the queue and switch to @. <-- it could find a % first, couldn't it?
17:09:59 <oerjan> at least in the version i looked at first, it seemed like you might occasionally move one marker while there was still progress to made on a later one.
17:11:06 <int-e> oerjan: Right, the description is a bit inaccurate in that point.
17:11:37 <int-e> My excuse is that everything would still work and just be a bit slower with & % -> % &
17:12:30 <int-e> Oh the line numbers disappeared along with the syntax hilighting. That's inconvenient.
17:14:45 <int-e> Hah, it's your fault.
17:15:38 <oerjan> (i just used the link from your @tell)
17:15:44 <int-e> oerjan: http://paste.debian.net/1057920/ is the same with Ø replaced by Oe
17:16:13 <int-e> I find that ridiculous.
17:16:29 <HackEso> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
17:25:52 <oerjan> ah i see you also noted # # was redundant, i was going to comment on that
17:26:06 <int-e> @tell imode http://paste.debian.net/1057921/ has syntax hilighting.
17:26:30 <int-e> yes. invariants are tricky :)
17:27:52 <int-e> Anyway, I'm fairly happy with it now.
17:28:14 <oerjan> (is there any change from *20 to *21)
17:28:34 <int-e> tweaking comments...
17:28:55 <int-e> I added to &: Optimization: switch to % when a % is encountered along the way.
17:29:09 <int-e> And I changed S2 to S1 in the description of D.
17:29:43 <int-e> Maybe I should use gist for this.
17:33:47 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58880&oldid=58855 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2855) Replaced content with "LolKek - is modification Brainfuck"
17:34:51 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58881&oldid=58880 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+4)
17:39:50 -!- imode has joined.
17:45:42 <oerjan> int-e: i think in line 206-207 you can make the right sides 0 and 1 instead of @ and ` @
17:50:32 <oerjan> (but for 208 it's alas unknown whether to use 2 or 3)
17:53:32 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58882&oldid=58881 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+32)
17:59:09 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58883&oldid=55671 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3023) Replaced content with "Fuck This"
17:59:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58884&oldid=57884 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-10319) Blanked the page
18:00:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58885&oldid=57033 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2840) Blanked the page
18:00:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58886&oldid=57561 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3142) Blanked the page
18:01:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58887&oldid=58669 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-37287) Blanked the page
18:04:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58888&oldid=58887 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+386)
18:05:06 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58889&oldid=57384 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-1991) Replaced content with "'''V"
18:05:10 <b_jonas> wait, did that say [[Main Page]]?
18:05:59 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58890&oldid=58883 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+3)
18:06:08 <int-e> They blanked their own page... and then they started this.
18:06:36 <int-e> I'm hoping oerjan or ais523 will revert all this, this is too much for a simple user.
18:07:18 <int-e> Who else is admin, fizzie maybe.
18:07:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58891&oldid=58888 * B jonas * (+36889) rv blanking rev to 07:21, 4 September 2018 by Rdebath
18:09:27 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58892&oldid=58890 * B jonas * (+3020) rv two edits by MAXXXIM to rev 12:57, 13 June 2018 Ais523
18:10:13 <int-e> Hmm. was https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=58888 an attempt to undo things?
18:10:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58893&oldid=58884 * B jonas * (+10319) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 16:46, 1 October 2018 Zzo38
18:11:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58894&oldid=58886 * B jonas * (+3142) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 23:18, 11 September 2018 B jonas
18:12:06 <imode> what in the world is going on?
18:12:24 <int-e> Somebody threw a temper tantrum on a wiki.
18:12:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58895&oldid=58885 * B jonas * (+2840) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 11:22, 25 July 2018 GDavid. yes it's very funny, now please stop.
18:13:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages
18:14:02 <imode> also thanks for the followup with that queue automaton, int-e. :D
18:14:14 <int-e> It's interesting that it started with a reasonable edit to their own language page.
18:14:49 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58896&oldid=58889 * B jonas * (+1991) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 06:40, 20 August 2018 Madk
18:15:02 <imode> are they a new user?
18:15:34 <int-e> Or, no... they blanked it first.
18:16:05 <int-e> 09:30, 23 December 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+168) . . Esolang:Introduce yourself (→Introductions)
18:16:48 <b_jonas> *inserting* nonsense/gibberish into pages
18:17:14 <oerjan> i didn't bother to check out too carefully what they'd actually done, so just picked a close reason
18:17:34 <imode> "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."
18:17:51 <imode> never saw that before on the front page.. huh.
18:18:50 <oerjan> imode: someone came on this channel and said it (probably someone who expect it to be about something else), we just had to use it :P
18:18:58 <HackEso> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
18:20:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: this might be an argument against your opinion we should allow non-english pages >:P
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18:22:15 <b_jonas> and we should not allow bushy moustaches because Stalin had a moustache
18:24:36 <oerjan> (the tantrum was from the same guy who made that russian one)
18:25:16 <oerjan> and that one we actually _don't_ allow
18:25:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't think Hitler's moustache was bushy though
18:25:55 <oerjan> anyway, thanks for helping reverting
18:29:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58897&oldid=58891 * Oerjan * (+12) Reinstate small clarification (because people keep missing the joke otherwise)
18:31:03 <b_jonas> "REINSTATE" takes a pres participle, so that would be "REINSTATE SMALL CLARIFYING" I think
18:31:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Oerjan * changed block settings for [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 18:13, 5 January 2019 (account creation disabled): Removing content from pages
18:32:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm pretty sure you're wrong
18:33:03 <oerjan> oh it's an intercal joke
18:33:39 <oerjan> . o O ( fine, you got me )
18:33:56 <oerjan> also fixed the block reason
18:36:52 <HackEso> A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
18:37:46 <oerjan> `le/rn standard//Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole.
18:37:48 <HackEso> Learned 'standard': Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole.
18:38:09 <HackEso> A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
18:38:29 <HackEso> A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter.
18:40:37 * oerjan notes in the logs fungot using non-parilimentary language
18:40:37 <fungot> oerjan: can't wait for may 24!! this was true: it wasn't radio controlled, there are very big audience for game turned movies.
18:40:56 <b_jonas> yeah, somebody switched it to youtube style
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19:03:49 <ais523> b_jonas: did you type out all those rv messages by hand?
19:04:10 <b_jonas> from the revision history page
19:04:18 <b_jonas> but there's only like seven of htem
19:04:31 <b_jonas> and most of them were on highly visible pages
19:04:33 <b_jonas> there aren't many of those
19:04:34 <ais523> thanks for the vandalism cleanup, anynway
19:04:58 <b_jonas> you can spot typing by hand from the inconsistent whitespace
19:08:54 <ais523> I was checking to see if it was feasible to give more people access to the rollback button, but probably not; it's something of a blunt instrument and can cause problems if new users use it without knowing what it does
19:09:13 <ais523> (given that throwing a rollback at someone is effectively a method of accusing them of vandalism)
19:09:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection).
19:09:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:09:58 <ais523> and esolangs.org doesn't have settings allowing rollback to be enabled for individual people (without making them admins)
19:10:16 <ais523> the undo button will produce an automated message saying where the rewind is going to, that's available to everyone
19:10:23 <b_jonas> I don't need a rollback button. I can save an old revision, or, if there's another revision on top, use diff3 to unmerge the edits I want to undo
19:10:28 <ais523> but it's not as convenient for vandalism cleanup
19:10:58 <ais523> right; admins have a rollback button basically everywhere, whenever we look at an edit there's a rollback button besides it, which reverts all the changes made in a row by the user in question to the individual page
19:11:05 <ais523> and there's no confirmation or anything, it just happens when we click it
19:11:15 <ais523> it's basically for situations where we need to do reverts really quickly
19:11:36 <b_jonas> yeah, that's not very typical on esolangs.org
19:12:21 <ais523> it's useful when spambots turn up
19:12:29 <ais523> although the current anti-spam measures seem to be holding
19:12:40 <ais523> if you've ever needed to undo a thousand spam edits…
19:13:34 <ais523> although nowadays we have tools such as "revert every edit this user has ever performed, and delete every page that they created" (that one /does/ have a confirm :-D)
19:13:42 <b_jonas> I shouldn't be trusted with it
19:13:52 <b_jonas> you already have enoguh admins
19:16:01 <ais523> on a different subject, "sift in flour" is correct but confusing, there's no separable verb "sift in", rather the "sift" (i.e. "separate using a sieve") and "in" (i.e. "place into") are being combined via eliding the words between, the meaning is like "sift the flour, placing the sifted flour into it" (where the thing you're placing the flour into has been elided too)
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19:28:57 <b_jonas> it's not the phrasing I find strange, I just thought the whole notion of sifting flour was mostly obsolete for home use, like that people did that only back when they couldn't just buy processed food wrapped in plastic packaging from shops, and had to mix all dough by hand-stirring
19:29:33 <b_jonas> If I want to mix margarine and suger and flour, I don't sift it
19:29:49 <imode> I guess it's meant for those in more humid climates where moisture can clump flour together.
19:29:57 <imode> or just improperly stored flour in general.
19:30:51 <b_jonas> guess that happened back when flour didn't come in one kilogram (or sometimes somewhat bigger) packages wrapped in paper, and once you open one, you put it in a plastic vessel that closes almost airtightly
19:31:11 <imode> you also have to consider the case of the "flour drawer".
19:31:33 <b_jonas> people just took a ceramic bowl and asked the shopkeeper in a non-self-serving shop to measure them some flour on a huge weight scale
19:32:07 <b_jonas> those things still existed in my early childhood
19:32:21 <imode> they still exist at my relatives' lmao.
19:32:45 <b_jonas> oh, and the grid of the sieve was made of non-synthetic strands
19:33:14 <b_jonas> yet people still made all sorts of food, even ones that involved methods that were really hard without modern conveniences
19:33:32 <b_jonas> I still occasionally read that sort of stuff from old cookbooks, and see remnants of such instruments
19:33:57 <imode> there's a particular channel, I believe it's called the Townsends, where they look at old cookery dating waaaaaaaaaaay back.
19:34:08 <imode> like to the point where whisks were just a bundle of twigs tied together to agitate things.
19:34:16 <imode> (this is on YouTube.)
19:35:35 <imode> agitate, incorporate, etc.
19:42:11 <b_jonas> although of course today people also cook food in ways that require a ton of effort even with modern conveniences
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20:15:30 <rain1> I'm curious about eForth
20:15:39 <ais523> I don't know much about eForth
20:15:45 <ais523> but I'm also curious about Forths in general
20:15:47 <rain1> https://forthworks.com/forth/papers/compare.pdf
20:15:53 <rain1> it requires the fewest primitives
20:16:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58898&oldid=58879 * Superstrijder15 * (+150) /* Missing syntax info */
20:16:25 <rain1> https://github.com/tehologist/forthkit/blob/master/forth.c i found an implementation here
20:16:57 <b_jonas> be careful with expressions like "the fewest" here
20:18:03 <ais523> hmm, I don't think Underload translates directly to Forth, does it?
20:18:06 <ais523> the missing primitive is ^
20:18:29 <ais523> but I'd expect a minimized Forth to be somewhere around four primitives, maybe three or five
20:22:19 <rain1> http://pygmy.utoh.org/3ins4th.html
20:27:31 <b_jonas> ais523: almost certainly not. underload needs closures or dynamic memory allocation
20:27:52 <ais523> b_jonas: not if you omit * and a
20:27:58 <b_jonas> ais523: you'd better try to translate something like br... something using a half-infinite tape
20:28:10 <ais523> I'm thinking of minimized Underload here
20:28:27 <b_jonas> or perhaps two stacks, since forth has a separate call stack and data stack
20:29:03 <b_jonas> perhaps, but even then you have to deal with ()
20:29:16 <ais523> Forth already has dup, swap, drop; and you can emulate Underload's (…) via defining a word that pushes a specified sequence onto the stack, then using that word to represent the entire (…) construct
20:29:28 <ais523> kind-of like Splinter but with a stack
20:29:59 <b_jonas> but does forth let you push a pointer to a function to the data stack? or do you emulate that by a jump table?
20:30:17 <b_jonas> I guess forth probably does allow directly manipulating forth function pointesr
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20:30:38 <ais523> this is why I said ^ is missing
20:31:09 <b_jonas> there's an IOCCC entry with a small forth interpreter by the way
20:31:18 <ais523> I don't know Forth well enough to know whether there's, e.g., some trick you could do using immediate mode
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20:31:56 <b_jonas> unrelated, have you ever found a heuristic supporting that M:tG without Rotlung Reanimator is still TC? it probably is, but do we have a concrete suspicion on why?
20:32:11 <b_jonas> I guess I must have asked that several times already
20:34:12 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, you could just emulate two stacks and a finite control state by making some global variables, storing one stack on the call stack and one on the data stack, and temporarily putting the finite machine state to a global variable when you return to pop an entry from the call stack so that it knows where to continue from
20:34:27 <b_jonas> lets you translate any two-stack machine or one-tape TM
20:34:35 <b_jonas> but sure, there may be a shortcut if you know forth well
20:34:50 <b_jonas> and of course if you do that in practice, you may run out of space on one of the two stacks
20:35:12 <ais523> b_jonas: the The Waterfall Model construction uses Hungry Lynx for the /logic/, so Rotlung Reanimator is probably replaceable with something
20:35:33 <HackEso> Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R
20:35:40 <b_jonas> that's the card from the quote
20:35:44 <ais523> I was so surprised and excited when I saw Hungry Lynx was printed, it's as though someone inside Wizards had heard of the Turing machine project and decided to create the perfect card for it
20:36:28 <b_jonas> yeah. it's the third ability that really helps, the first one has been printed a few times already.
20:36:45 <ais523> if someone had asked me for the precise wording of a trigger that would fill in all the missing gaps, I would have said "Whenever a «creature type» you control «dies/enters the battlefield», put a +1/+1 counter on each «other creature type» you control"
20:36:54 <b_jonas> ok, thanks, that does answer my question
20:37:05 <ais523> so I was a little surprised to see it actually printed on a card
20:37:43 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card-search: not found
20:37:49 <b_jonas> whatever is the command for that
20:37:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Boldwyr Intimidator
20:37:53 <HackEso> Boldwyr Intimidator \ 5RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ Cowards can't block Warriors. \ {R}: Target creature becomes a Coward until end of turn. \ {2}{R}: Target creature becomes a Warrior until end of turn. \ FUT-U, MOR-U, CNS-U, DDS-U
20:38:12 <HackEso> grep: bin/walcama: No such file or directory \ bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card \ bin/scheme
20:38:19 <HackEso> Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
20:38:27 <HackEso> Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
20:39:13 <b_jonas> yeah, Boldwyr Imitator is the only one that mentions cowards, it seems
20:42:11 <b_jonas> I thought there were two cards, but in retrospect, the "Warrior" bit gives it away that it's in Morningtide (joke's on me, it's from Future Sight)
20:42:32 <ais523> it's in both apparently
20:42:39 <ais523> also conspiracy and a duel deck
20:42:52 <ais523> (conspiracy seems like a bit of a weird fit…)
20:44:11 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Assemble the Rank and Vile
20:44:12 <HackEso> Assemble the Rank and Vile \ Conspiracy \ Hidden agenda (Start the game with this conspiracy face down in the command zone and secretly choose a card name. You may turn this conspiracy face up any time and reveal that name.) \ Creatures you control with the chosen name have "When this creature dies, you may pay {B}. If you do, create a tapped 2/2 black Zombie creature token." \ CN2-C
20:44:32 <b_jonas> it's not the only card in conspiracy that does wierd programmable triggers :-)
20:45:01 <b_jonas> there's a whole theme of "choose a card name" and a trigger on that card name
20:45:23 <ais523> "you may pay" is the sort of condition we've been trying to avoid in the TC construction for M:tG
20:45:24 <b_jonas> easier than that Mirrodin block triggered staff
20:45:30 <ais523> because what if the player doesn't?
20:46:06 <b_jonas> and apparently we can't really use
20:46:12 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Spellweaver Helix
20:46:12 <HackEso> Spellweaver Helix \ 3 \ Artifact \ Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix enters the battlefield, you may exile two target sorcery cards from a single graveyard. \ Whenever a player casts a card, if it has the same name as one of the cards exiled with Spellweaver Helix, you may copy the other. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost. \ MRD-R
20:46:19 <b_jonas> either, because it triggers on a spell being cast
20:46:29 <b_jonas> which makes sense since they don't want even more easy infinite loops
20:46:48 <b_jonas> even back when they made the infamous Mirrodin, they already knew that
20:47:01 <b_jonas> so stuff like Kiki-Jiki loops rarely slipped through
20:47:32 <b_jonas> still, if an old card fits the theme, they may be more forgiving about that sort of stuff
20:48:47 <ais523> out of the accidental gamebreaking infinite loops, have /all/ of them been copy effects where the copy refreshes the ability of the original card to use the copy effect?
20:49:08 <b_jonas> there's been flicker effects
20:49:13 <ais523> kiki-jiki/splinter twin + pestermite/deceiver exarch is of that form, so is saheeli rai + felidar guardian
20:49:16 <b_jonas> where the flicker refreshes the ability
20:49:23 <ais523> yes, but the ability is a copy ability
20:49:54 <b_jonas> isn't there somethign with just flicker?
20:50:10 <b_jonas> flicker plus something that etb with counters and generates, I dunno, mana from it?
20:50:23 <ais523> in the flicker-based broken infinite loops I know, the flicker regenerates a copy effect that regenerates the flicker
20:50:32 <ais523> there are infinite loops without a copy in but they aren't broken
20:50:49 <ais523> things like kitchen finks + viscera seer + melira
20:51:08 <ais523> but that was actually pretty fair, and although it was played in a top Modern deck it isn't the reason the deck was good
20:52:05 <ais523> I guess one reason it's copy-based loops that tend to break things is that they normally only need two cards in the combo rather than three!
20:54:04 <ais523> there was also Half-Squirrel, Half-Pony but that wasn't in a tournament-legal set and got errata'd before it could break things (also it needed a third card to infinitely flicker)
20:54:15 <ais523> `card-by-name Half-Squirrel, Half-
20:54:15 <HackEso> Half-Squirrel, Half- \ Creature -- Squirrel \ -1/-0 \ Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, \ Augment {G} ({G}, Reveal this card from your hand: Combine it with target host. Augment only as a sorcery.) \ UST-U
20:54:21 <ais523> `card-by-name Ordinary Pony
20:54:22 <HackEso> Ordinary Pony \ 2W \ Host Creature -- Horse \ 2/3 \ When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Horse creature you control that wasn't put onto the battlefield with this ability this turn, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control. \ UST-C
20:58:34 <b_jonas> and some infinite loops are simply made impractical by the high mana cost of a piece, like that of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed plus Bloodied Ghost plus a free sac outlet
21:14:12 <ais523> well, the "more efficient win condition" I found for Omni-Tell while working on the TC proof contains a 27-mana combo
21:14:20 <ais523> but it has unlimited resources at that point, so the cost doesn't really matter
21:14:48 <b_jonas> for just starting an infinite loop, you don't that much mana
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22:05:31 <HackEso> 2018-12-29 22:05:31.418126946 +0000 UTC December 29 Saturday 2018-W52-6
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22:45:42 <arseniiv> does someone know what links are there between algebraic effects and extensible effects? (@tell me if you may, gtg)
22:45:46 <shachaf> supermegacomics.com is down?!
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22:47:21 <shachaf> arseniiv: Is extensible effects the one based on free monads?
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23:50:39 <imode> is there a process for converting a cellular automata with >2 states to something with only 2 states?
23:53:28 <b_jonas> imode: what are the other constraints, or how do you define cellular automatons
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23:55:20 <imode> assume a 2D grid, assume each cell in the grid can be in some state, assume cells can transition from one state to another, assume cells transition based on the states of their neighbors in some defined neighborhood (von neumann or moore).
23:55:49 <imode> convert a CA with cell states >2 into something with cell states = 2.