2018-12-01: 00:07:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 00:07:55 -!- Taneb has joined. 00:08:13 shachaf: well, there has to be, right? otherwise -O2 would do nothing 00:09:29 I mean, -O2 is advertised as turning on a bunch of optimization flags, like -fthread-jumps 00:09:50 But some things (in particular some optimization that was buggy) can't be turned on or off piecemeal. 00:16:02 Yes, it has to have such a block to turn on the other flags, but that is all that it should do. 00:18:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:33 -!- tromp has joined. 00:36:18 The document for twtxt says there should be a limit of 140 characters per message. Mastodon has a limit of 500 characters. Netsubscribe specifies no limit, although the system administrator can specify a limit in bytes. Do you think 910 bytes should be sufficient? 00:40:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:42:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:49:54 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:51:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 01:02:02 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:02:08 -!- user24 has joined. 01:12:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:14:54 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:30:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:37:00 [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58520&oldid=58519 * Cortex * (-6) /* ProcessingJS interpreter */ 02:37:16 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:12:24 -!- hexfive has joined. 04:54:50 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:38:52 One thing that Firefox does not seem to do is if you want to enable font loading for SVG and PDF but not HTML. 06:42:43 -!- AnotherTest_ has joined. 07:14:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:30:16 -!- AnotherTest_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:47:37 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 07:47:59 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:02:23 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:15:36 -!- Cale has joined. 08:19:53 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:23:00 -!- b_jonas has joined. 08:23:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:11 `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/ 08:23:12 pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale 08:23:17 -!- tromp has joined. 08:24:29 ty Democracy 08:24:29 28 capital: Canada 08:25:26 hmmm... 08:25:56 `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2703699/weigh-cup/ 08:25:56 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found 08:25:59 too 08:26:19 how would one divide up the surface of the earth into 50 equally-sized pieces 08:27:14 such that as few countries as possible are on more than one or less than one piece and all pieces are contiguous 08:27:58 also http://golf.horse/ 08:28:02 er, I guess it's not possible for a country to be on less than one piece so scratch that 08:28:36 `ysaclist 82 08:28:37 ysaclist 82: boily shachaf 08:52:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 08:53:35 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:01:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:17:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:21:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:21:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:21:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:22:59 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 09:43:07 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 10:37:27 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:37:33 -!- clog has joined. 10:53:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:10:10 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:10:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:11:09 Hey guys. You know 8-bit video gaming history, right? 11:11:20 I have a stupid conspiration theory, and I'd like you to tell my why it's so wrong 11:15:35 clearly hogwash. if i only knew 8-bit video gaming history i'd show you. 11:16:07 It looks like 8-bit games on handheld consoles (GB, GBC) have a somewhat diferent style of graphics tha 8-bit games on TV consoles (NES, SNES). The handheld ones are like a newspaper comic strip, with black outlines and colors that seem vivid now, 11:16:30 because the LCD could show those sharp black lines nicely, but you wouldn't see fine distinctions of colors. 11:17:11 Whereas TV games have finer shades because the TV shows the colors better, but no outlines, because thsoe would look bad on an old TV. 11:18:09 Now look at Earthbound. It's a NES game, but its graphics, especially the world map ones, look like they were drawn for the GBC, sort of like Pokemon. 11:19:57 I don't think that game looked good on 1990s TVs. How does that work? Is that why it became such a cult classic later, when people had good monitors, _despite_ that the game interface is clunky and later players feel that, while players at the time it was released (1994 and 1995) might not have? 11:21:16 `? you 11:21:17 you? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:23:47 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:25:10 `learn You are just a second person pronoun. 11:25:12 Learned 'you': You are just a second person pronoun. 11:26:25 wob_jonas: that wouldn't be a conspiracy theory unless someone actually planned it to have that effect hth 11:26:57 (also, they'd have to conspire while doing so, i guess) 11:27:44 oerjan: it's sort of a conspiration theory, because I'm picking up details while ignoring others, and not really verifying the statements I say 11:27:46 `? password 11:27:47 The password of the month is most forgettable. 11:27:57 and it would be Nintendo who conspired for ... something 11:28:04 it's not clear what for 11:28:22 `cwlprits password 11:28:24 int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_ 11:28:36 hmm... anybody else/ 11:28:38 ? 11:28:55 `victims 11:28:55 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: victims: not found 11:29:54 the password of the month is bulbasaur with stingers 11:30:14 . o O ( The password of the month is PRESENTly unknown. ) 11:33:25 Hmm, how about "SCALNATUAS". 11:33:51 @google SCALNATUAS 11:33:52 https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/524866668.html 11:34:49 Wow, unique result. 11:35:02 `learn The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS". 11:35:05 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS". 11:56:47 wat. 11:56:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: LAter). 12:03:58 @tell oerjan "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-) 12:03:58 Consider it noted. 13:03:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:05:14 -!- sprocklem has joined. 13:13:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:14:23 -!- tromp has joined. 13:16:52 * ski . o O ( POTRZEBIE ) 13:23:14 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:28:49 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot. 13:31:10 ski: hmm that doesn't seem to be following the right pattern 13:31:42 * ski has no idea what "the right pattern" would be 13:33:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:33:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:34:33 something with parity 13:41:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:41:34 -!- tromp has joined. 13:53:14 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:53:46 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:54:44 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:11:27 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:12:53 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:24:59 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58521&oldid=58423 * Cortex * (+62) 14:43:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:55:06 has anyone looked at The Waterfall Model Online yet?: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/ 15:02:47 [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58522&oldid=58520 * Cortex * (+62) /* +-=*/!# */ 15:04:36 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58523&oldid=58521 * Cortex * (+5) 15:12:24 ais523: no 15:12:32 ais523: see above about my stupid question on 8-bit video game history 15:12:57 I saw it but don't have enough information to answer 15:13:24 ais523: ah, so there's a good reason why I didn't know that Waterfall Online page existed. you only linked it from the wiki today. I didn't just miss it or something. 15:13:34 yes 15:13:48 it's been up for a little longer than that but was too unfinished to be worth linking 15:14:05 it's still unfinished, really, but I've stopped actively working on it because I need to get better at The Waterfall Model first :-D 15:28:12 [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58524&oldid=58070 * Ais523 * (-183) /* Syntax */ remove the exceptionn for type inference; it probably doesn't help much and might trigger unintentionally 16:20:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:42:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:23:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:36:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:36:42 -!- tromp has joined. 18:37:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:39:08 @messages-cloudy 18:39:09 int-e said 6h 35m 10s ago: "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-) 18:42:01 darn i read ahead in the logs and now i feel spoilered :( 18:42:31 int-e: i tried too hard to decipher it as an acronym 18:44:09 `scramble it should have been not like this, anyway 18:44:10 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: scramble: not found 18:44:12 oops 18:44:16 ^scramble it should have been not like this, anyway 18:44:16 i hudhv enntlk hs nwyaya,itei o ebea lost 18:44:28 ^unscramble it should have been not like this, anyway 18:44:29 iyta wsyhnoau l,ds ihhatv ee kbiele nt on 18:44:47 *done 18:59:08 Oh I was unaware of or forgot about \^(un)?scramble, not sure which. 19:08:52 ^shuffle 1234567 19:09:06 not this one, hmm? 19:09:18 fungot: got fun? 19:09:18 int-e: just keep trying to imitate with other bots? 19:09:29 ... 19:10:04 fungot: perhaps, if there were any other bots to talk to... 19:10:05 int-e: so if you have ( define blah ( pi 2) supposed to do. for example, when theres a question or two 19:10:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:15 and back to normal. 19:10:23 -!- tromp has joined. 19:11:45 -!- Fizzle has joined. 19:13:53 -!- Fizzle has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 19:15:04 Fizzle? 19:15:18 it's an lmposter! 19:16:00 There's a book at the used bookstore here called "fizzics" 19:21:15 does it do kwantum? 19:24:55 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:31:44 -!- Essadon has joined. 19:32:07 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 19:32:31 -!- Essadon has joined. 19:53:59 [[Alchemist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58525&oldid=58503 * Plokmijnuhby * (+4) /* 0-Rules */ Minor typo. 20:07:54 -!- kapil has joined. 20:08:17 -!- kapil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:15:33 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58526&oldid=56540 * ShareMan * (+2700) 20:15:54 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58527&oldid=58526 * ShareMan * (-2700) Blanked the page 20:21:33 [[HARSH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (+2832) Created Page "HARSH" for the programming language HARSH 20:22:15 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58529&oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (-2) fixed typo 20:24:16 [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58530&oldid=31957 * Gamer * (+86) 20:24:55 -!- imode has joined. 20:40:25 That wasn't me, but I actually used "Fizzle" as my nick before the current one. 20:41:57 maybe you were time traveling. 20:43:49 hmm, then "were" may not be applicable. 20:45:25 sorry, i don't have a copy of dan streetmentioner handy 20:45:41 "Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up." 20:47:14 oerjan: Oh you actually remember the name... I only recalled the concept. 20:47:27 MWAHAHAHAHA 20:47:32 `? dan streetmentioner 20:47:33 dan streetmentioner? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:48:08 b_jonas: "The major problem [of time travel] is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations." -- Douglas Adams 20:52:07 oerjan: in fact I grepped for "get far as the" ;-) 20:52:19 oerjan: sorry, "get as far as the" 20:57:48 `le/rn tense formation//See pitchfork mob 20:57:50 Learned 'tense formation': See pitchfork mob 20:59:40 `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians. 20:59:42 Learned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians. 20:59:51 `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians. 20:59:53 Relearned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians. 21:00:42 `le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob 21:00:44 Relearned 'tense formation': Tense formation: See pitchfork mob 21:04:01 `? tenth formation 21:04:03 `? tent formation 21:04:03 tenth formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:04:05 `? nth formation 21:04:05 tent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:04:07 nth formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:04:31 `? bent formation 21:04:32 bent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:04:33 `? dent formation 21:04:34 dent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:06:38 `? rent formation 21:06:39 rent formation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:06:43 `? information 21:06:44 information? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:08:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:08:32 oerjan: shouldn't it be `slwd tense formation//s/$/./ 21:08:55 or do we have an exception for "See (also)?"? 21:09:23 `? oerjan 21:09:24 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 21:09:28 `grwp See 21:09:29 ​`1:`1 is equivalent to `` , except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ `5:`5 is equivalent to repeating `` 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2. \ burrito:Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe 21:09:35 `? natural transformation 21:09:36 A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals. 21:09:58 `? roujo's relevant info 21:09:59 That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of. 21:11:12 `2 grwp 'See ' 21:11:13 2/9:e. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ \ =@ccc:=@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 . \ corkscrew:A corkscrew is a 21:11:28 `slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course 21:11:29 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 21:12:16 `n 21:12:16 3/9: downwards spiral of doom. See mapole. \ croissont supplier:See misspellings of croissant \ degeneration:The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate. \ `doag:`doag: See `hoag \ `doat:`doat: See `hoag \ `dowg:`dowg: See `hoag \ `dowt:`dowt: See `hoag \ `fetch:`fetch [] downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be cal 21:12:54 hm it seems inconsistent. 21:12:55 `? humble 21:12:56 humble? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:12:56 oerjan: I See no pattern so far, actually. 21:12:56 `? humbly 21:12:57 humbly? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:00 `? knuth numbers 21:13:01 knuth numbers? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:27 @oeis Knuth numbers 21:13:29 https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis... 21:13:29 [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,... 21:13:36 what? NO! 21:14:03 @oeis A007448 21:14:04 https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m... 21:14:04 [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,... 21:14:28 @oeis Knuth's sequence 21:14:29 https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis... 21:14:29 [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,... 21:14:36 weird :) 21:14:42 @oeis "Knuth's sequence" 21:14:42 @oeis name:Knuth's sequence 21:14:43 https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m... 21:14:43 [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,... 21:14:43 https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis... 21:14:43 [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,... 21:14:51 argh 21:14:59 now you don't know which one of the two it answered first 21:15:04 @oeis "Knuth's sequence" 21:15:05 https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m... 21:15:05 [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,... 21:15:11 now we do 21:15:56 @oeis name:"Knuth's sequence" 21:15:56 https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m... 21:15:56 [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,... 21:16:44 @oeis name:Knuth's 21:16:45 https://oeis.org/A241299 Initial digit of the decimal expansion of n^(n^n) o... 21:16:45 [0,1,1,7,1,1,2,3,6,4,1,3,4,6,1,3,1,3,1,1,3,2,3,5,5,2,2,2,8,1,1,9,1,2,3,4,8,2... 21:18:04 eww 21:18:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:18:28 Concrete Mathematics chapter 3.3 is where Knuth says that he's decided that A007448 shall be called Knuth numbers 21:18:37 "humbly" 21:19:44 . o O ( IM"H"O ) 21:21:00 -!- imode has joined. 21:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:26:38 `? imho 21:26:39 IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience". 21:29:10 `? `hello 21:29:11 ​`hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline. 21:29:19 I've just edited a stupid typo in that 21:30:13 `dowg 21:30:14 11659:2018-12-01 perl -e open$I,"<",($n="wisdom/`hello") or die; local$/; $c=<$I>; eof$I or die"e"; $c=~s!/d,/d/!/o,/o/! or die "s"; open $O,">",$n or die"O"; print $O $c or die"p"; warn "edited $f;"; \ 11658:2018-12-01 slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course \ 11657:2018-12-01 le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob \ 11656:2018-12-01 le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mob 21:31:03 `? rtf 21:31:04 RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures. 21:31:04 `? ttf 21:31:05 TTF is the true typography format. All others are heretical. 21:31:09 `? morphism 21:31:10 A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1. 21:32:53 `hello Z 21:32:53 hello world, 21:33:50 `hello B 21:33:51 hello world 21:45:36 [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58531&oldid=57919 * Cortex * (+254) 21:46:57 [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58532&oldid=58531 * Cortex * (+2) /* Cat program */ 21:49:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:55:59 [[Y/N]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58533 * Cortex * (+854) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Y/N''' is an incomplete esolang made by [[User:Cortex]]. The only keywords are yes and no. Commands are started with yes[commandname..." 22:11:17 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:23:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:29:18 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58534&oldid=58489 * ShareMan * (+12) /* H */ added HARSH 22:30:42 `? no 22:30:43 No means hi. 22:32:03 `? hi 22:32:06 hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:46:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:48:53 -!- moei has joined. 23:01:30 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:45:47 Just a reminder that the puppy hiatus on Irregular Webcomics ends in 12 hours. 23:49:00 we don't list every strip since the time they appear is quite predictable: it's always 10:11 UTC on certain days of a week -- the set of days of the week when new comic appears has changed about six times, and we don't know what it will change to next though 23:51:42 darn no 23:51:43 I'm stupid 23:51:51 the puppy hiatus ends in 36 hours 23:51:54 I'm off by a day 23:52:17 so it will probably be on W-1, W-2, W-4, W-5 again 23:57:40 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 2018-12-02: 00:03:54 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:07:27 -!- sprocklem has joined. 00:20:58 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:29:46 -!- user24 has joined. 00:33:50 -!- imode has joined. 00:35:41 I thought of once a rule variation for mahjong that if you have menzentsumo it does not count 1 han but it does reduce your requirement by 1 han (reducing it normally to zero, although sometimes it will still be 1) 00:35:50 What do you think of this? 00:37:23 I don't know mahjong so i can't comment 00:37:42 OK 00:53:52 -!- Hello has joined. 00:54:29 -!- Hello has quit (Client Quit). 01:01:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:29:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 01:33:45 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:35:19 -!- MDead has joined. 01:35:59 -!- user24 has joined. 01:36:50 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:40:32 -!- MDead has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:44:59 -!- MDude has joined. 01:48:23 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:50:10 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:03:16 [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58535&oldid=54319 * Ais523 * (+355) /* External resources */ add BrainFlak::Symbolic 02:03:56 [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58536&oldid=58535 * Ais523 * (+14) /* External resources */ apparently it needs the http://; also mention the implementation language 02:10:05 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:11:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 03:07:30 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:13:58 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:14:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:45 -!- tromp has joined. 04:11:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:14:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:24:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:31:36 One thing I thought of for SQLite that I don't know whether or ont it would improve anything is sqlite3_str_context() function, which returns a string building object and makes the result of the function to effectively be whatever is then appended to the string, if your program does not call sqlite3_str_reset() or sqlite3_str_finish() on it. 04:44:18 Also, I wrote a shell script to download and compile SQLite 04:46:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:58:47 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:15:36 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:40:09 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 05:43:56 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:00:38 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 06:23:45 SQLite does not have a upsert that causes it to become an error if the WHERE clause does not match. 06:24:27 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:32:55 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:43:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:46:21 (One idea is that after the WHERE clause of a upsert you can optionally add "ELSE ABORT", "ELSE ROLLBACK", "ELSE FAIL", or "ELSE IGNORE" (the default if none is specified, which corresponds to the current behaviour).) 06:53:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:02:31 -!- hexfive has joined. 07:15:08 Other suggestions of rule variations of mahjong I have seen include menzenron instead of menzentsumo, and another is "reverse yakitori" where you start without yakitori but if you deal into someone's hand then you do have yakitori. 07:16:01 (You could also do both ways yakitori together: if you win or if you deal into someone else's hand, it can be changed; whichever one applied last is in use) 07:18:15 One thing I thought of also is a variant where red dora is not affected by dora indicators, even if the indicator is four of that suit 07:43:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:45:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:00:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:00:18 -!- tromp has joined. 08:12:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:14:50 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 08:30:42 -!- gurmble has joined. 08:32:08 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:32:40 -!- tromp has joined. 08:33:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:33:41 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:33:52 -!- tromp has joined. 08:37:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:39:11 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 633 seconds). 09:20:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:23:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:23:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 09:23:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:44:04 -!- b_jonas has joined. 09:48:39 `makelist bobadventureslist b_jonas 09:48:41 makelistlist bobadventureslist: shachaf 09:48:58 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html 09:48:59 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html: b_jonas 09:49:43 `makelist ehlist b_jonas 09:49:44 makelistlist ehlist: shachaf 09:50:51 who put me on makelistlist 09:51:58 shachaf: ask the mercury repo if you want to know 09:53:00 zzo38: in sqlite, do these new window functions allow you to write a parenthisized subquery that returns the group_concat of a query but with values concatenated in a deterministic sort order given by an ORDER BY clause? 09:53:24 just wondering 10:13:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:35:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:41:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:01:01 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:07:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:15:06 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 11:39:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:02:21 -!- user24 has joined. 12:09:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:27:19 -!- Essadon has joined. 12:35:46 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:47:03 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 13:10:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:19:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:59:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:00:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:27:44 -!- limbo_ has joined. 15:28:35 Is there an explaination for the limes in the wiki logo on esolangs.org? 16:00:19 Not a real one. It's called "trilime", though. 16:03:37 https://esolangs.org/logs/2011-05-24.html#l5x 2011-05-25 21:31:34 I think the official answer is "it's just an image Graue chose as a placeholder, and people decided they liked it" 16:34:40 ha! I've done that exact thing before, but with a public-domain image of a cactus. 16:34:48 It's a good logo. 16:50:02 b_jonas: Yes, window functions do allow you to use a deterministic sort order (unlike normal aggregate functions) 17:09:53 That is OK, although I think that a proper logo should be made specific for Free Hero Mesh. 17:10:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:11:17 regular expressions can be implemented efficiently by compiling them into NFAs 17:11:27 is there a similar efficient compilation technique for regular expressions + backreferencess? 17:11:48 I don't know 17:17:25 oh, it's been shown that there almost certainly isn't: https://perl.plover.com/NPC/NPC-3SAT.html 17:17:34 3SAT in regex+backreference :-) 17:28:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:35:29 Another thing I thought of for mahjong is to avoid rounding errors by making all hands worth 25 fu. There may be other ways to do this too though, such as not rounding at all. Since, this rounding sometimes results a hand being worth more for tsumo win than with ron win, even though it is supposed to be same. 17:36:07 (Different hands are still worth different amount of han, but fixed at 25 fu.) 17:36:23 Do you like mahjong? 17:38:57 ais523: hmm, why 3SAT when the same code works for SAT? 17:39:16 (CNF-SAT if you will) 17:39:28 int-e: probably just a case of doing the minimum necessary amount of work 17:39:39 you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3 17:40:16 as long as they're SATisfied. 17:40:58 that's not even really a pun? SAT is an abbreviation for "satisfaction" already 17:41:19 but it has unSATisfactory instances... or something like that. 17:41:53 if you wanted a pun you'd have to use SATurate or SATchel or some similarly unrelated word 17:42:02 (fwiw, "satisfiability" is the usual term) 17:44:25 As famously used in the Rolling Stones song, I can't get no satisfiability. 17:45:06 (It's about the NP-completeness of the problem.) 17:46:20 zzo38: deterministic sort order goes most of the way, good. can you use any ordinary aggregate function for that, or do you have to write a custom window function aggregate function? is the sqlite built-in function string_concat (or whatever it's called) suitable? 17:46:28 group_concat 17:48:37 ais523: re backreferences, also https://laurikari.net/tre/ is a thesis project proving that implements regular expressions with capture groups efficiently, there's obviously a lot of work done with it, it implements backreferences but for that it falls back to a slower alternate implementation, 17:49:28 which also shows that at least there's no easy way to extend the implementation to backreferences, because clearly Ville Laukari has worked a lot on the theory there. 17:52:34 ais523: also, there's a one-line proof that factoring reduces to regexes with backreferences: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=52469 17:52:59 that doesn't make it NP-complete, because factoring likely isn't, but still, it shows that we don't know a polynomial time implementation 17:53:03 hm wait 17:53:05 that doesn't wrok 17:53:09 that's for unary 17:53:21 we can factor unary numbers in polynomial time 17:54:39 thinking about this a bit more, I suspect regex+backreferences is implemented by a nondeterministic LBA, rather than a nondeterminstic finite state machine 17:55:14 there's no particular reason to expect those to be fast in general, but there may be a method of implementing them efficiently in the cases that typically arise in practice 17:57:48 "you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3" - hehe. I have a published NP-completeness proof where I reduce to SAT, not 3-SAT specifically, because the proof automatically works for any expression reduced to conjuctive normal form. 17:58:10 It's not a very useful proof, mind you, because the problem we reduce to is not something you are generally interested in. 17:59:50 ais523: you can probably read Ville Laukari's book and source code for how he implements them 18:00:03 and there are a few other independent implementations 18:00:11 a gnu one in libc in particular 18:00:13 many mathematicians are suspicious of P-inequivalence proof claims based on 3SAT because they often would work for 2SAT as well 18:00:30 that might be one of the simplest ways to prove that such a proof might contain an error 18:00:59 ais523: yeah, but this isn't a P-equivalence proof. this is a proof for hardness of a decision problem. 2-SAT reduces to it too, but that's not a problem. 18:01:31 right, with proofs in that direction you don't care if they work for 2-SAT too 18:02:16 I made the proof because I wanted to see why we don't know an algorithm for a certain other decision problem, only I couldn't prove hardness of that particular problem rigorously. 18:02:29 So I proved hardness of a less interesting problem. 18:02:37 One that is NP., 18:03:34 The actual problem we're interested in might be in P for all we know, but on the other hand it need not be in R. 18:03:51 It's somewhere low in the arithmetic hierarchy. 18:04:18 Probably at some greek letter plus _1 18:05:03 which one's R? 18:05:04 I have some reason to suspect that it might not be in R, but I can't really conjecture it. 18:05:11 there are so many complexity classes that I keep forgetting their names 18:05:37 ais523: recursive decision problems, the ones for which there's a det' algorithm that always terminates and gives correct result 18:05:48 right, just looked it up 18:06:02 at least I think some people call it R, but the naming conventions in that field are terrible 18:06:09 decision problems that can be solved both ways, i.e. you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, and also a Turing machine that halts on false 18:06:16 hopefully Knuth cleans them up at least a little in volumes 4 and 5 18:06:20 and yes, Complexity Zoo calls it R, that's my normal source for these things 18:06:27 yeah. 18:06:38 (if you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, but maybe can't write one that halts on false, that's RE) 18:07:57 Iirc in this case we do have a proof that it's at some particular level of the arithmetical hierarchy, but it's not obvious at first glance. 18:08:10 Or maybe it is, depending on how you interpret "obvious". 18:09:13 Stupid problem defined with multivariate calculus that you have to reduce to a discrete problem by a calculus theorem like the uniform continuity or some other compactness stuff. 18:11:29 that's not even really a pun? <-- i considered not capitalizing SAT, would that have helped? 18:12:41 Calculus if full of these things by the way. The staple example is finding arbitrarily close rational bounds for the real roots of a polynomial with integer coeffs. That one does go down with an elementary calculus argument, but you wouldn't guess the algorithm unless someone tells you. 18:13:01 And I don't even know the proof for complex roots. 18:13:49 I think the complex version uses Gerschgorin circles, but it could need more. 18:14:31 oerjan: a bit 18:15:01 s/Gerschgorin circles/Geršgorin circles/ 18:32:15 -!- imode has joined. 18:42:50 come to think of it, I suspect you can run regexes in O(n**(2r+1)), where r is the number of backreferences used in the regex 18:43:24 that wouldn't violate the boolean-satisfaction result above, because the more variables you have, the larger r gets 18:45:53 the algorithm for doing so is trivial: for each backreference, iterate over the O(n**2) substrings of the input; for each of the sets of potential backreferences values produced, run the regular expression with the backreferences hardcoded, then verify that the capture groups match the hardcoded backreferences 18:46:46 of course, a cubic implementation for one backreference isn't particularly "efficient", but polynomial time beats the exponential time that most implementations use 19:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 19:16:30 b_jonas: All of the built-in aggregate functions can be used as window functions. If you are defining your own functions, you must define a few additional methods in order to work as a window function; such functions can also be used as ordinary aggregate functions. 19:25:43 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:52:41 [[Ases]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58537&oldid=54842 * Gamer * (-15) 19:57:21 [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58538&oldid=39458 * Gamer * (+51) 19:58:32 [[SeMo-PATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58539&oldid=57516 * Gamer * (+0) /* Computational Class */ 19:58:55 [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58540&oldid=58538 * Gamer * (+0) /* Examples */ 20:09:14 [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58541&oldid=46643 * Gamer * (+4) /* Commands */ 20:14:56 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58542&oldid=58541 * Gamer * (+32) /* Example programs */ 20:16:57 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58543&oldid=58542 * Gamer * (+6) /* Example programs */ 20:17:32 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58544&oldid=58543 * Gamer * (+2) /* Example programs */ 20:18:28 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58545&oldid=58544 * Gamer * (+3) /* Example programs */ 20:52:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 21:07:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:20:23 zzo38: I know they can all be used in window function expressions. I'm asking if they are still guaranteed to be called with rows in a deterministic order. 21:20:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 21:21:31 ais523: lol. that definitely isn't a practical algorithm. I think you can do better, and libtre almost certainly doesn't do that. 21:22:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:22:33 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 21:22:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 21:22:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:22:49 Hmm... maybe you're right. For some devious backreference expressions, like /(.*)\1/, that might actually be efficient. 21:23:15 No no. I think there's a linear time algorithm for finding /(.*)\1/ longest match. 21:23:52 I react fast, eh? 21:55:12 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:58:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:16:59 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:17:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:17:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:17:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 22:17:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:25:25 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:27:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:28:20 b_jonas: now try the factoring thing: (..*)\1\1* 22:28:46 oops, that should have one more . 22:29:42 (hmm. I guess I'm counting capturing groups) 22:30:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:30:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 22:30:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:50:49 int-e: see above. that's for unary numbers, and we can factor unary numbers in sublinear times, even sublinear for a fixed regex, which is pretty rare for a regex that is anchored to match the whole string (it's commonplace for a regex like /^a/ 22:50:53 ) 22:52:21 we have series of regexen (strings as regexes without anchors actually) such that we can match any in linear time, but the constant factor goes to zero as a limit 22:54:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:54:46 Even I know how to implement factoring unary in O(n**(1/4)) time because I've implemented the corresponding algorithm for integers with arithmetic available. 22:55:03 well, O(n**(1/4 + epsilon)) but still 22:55:03 -!- tromp has joined. 23:03:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:52 -!- tromp has joined. 23:29:12 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:43:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:47:50 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58546&oldid=58529 * ShareMan * (-149) /* Language Overview */ Deleted interpreter info from language section, and fixed some grammar 23:50:32 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58547&oldid=58546 * ShareMan * (+296) /* Interpreter Help */ Added info about interpreter operation 23:52:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:53:04 -!- imode has joined. 23:54:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:54:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:54:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:54:38 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58548&oldid=58547 * ShareMan * (+234) /* Examples */ Added new example programs 23:55:24 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58549&oldid=58548 * ShareMan * (+2) /* Interpreter Help */ Fixed formatting 23:57:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:58:21 -!- tromp has joined. 2018-12-03: 00:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:52:56 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 01:30:11 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:24:35 b_jonas: I think yes, if used as window functions then it is, but not if used as ordinary aggregate functions 02:33:16 (I don't know if that is quite sure, but I believe so) 03:20:05 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:13:48 I made a Fossil repository for my "netsubsc" program (the reference implementation of Netsubscribe), including man pages, and also the protocol documentation is versioned in there too. Now you can look if you want to see (perhaps you might also use) the incomplete version, and can post bug reports, and wiki. 05:14:25 -!- user24 has joined. 05:39:46 -!- void__ has joined. 07:29:09 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:37:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:11:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:11:53 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:23:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:47 -!- tromp has joined. 08:32:24 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 08:56:44 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:59:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:06:32 -!- GodsSon has joined. 09:10:21 -!- GodsSon has left ("Leaving"). 09:20:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:28:30 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:52:14 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Quit: Page closed). 09:53:23 -!- xkapastel has joined. 09:59:19 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:23:14 -!- void__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:23:58 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:35:30 -!- void__ has joined. 10:41:53 [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58550&oldid=58530 * Oerjan * (-86) Undo revision 58530 by [[Special:Contributions/Gamer|Gamer]] ([[User talk:Gamer|talk]]) (Pretty sure it's not, as {} isn't a loop.) 10:50:22 [[Brainfoctal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58551&oldid=58504 * Salpynx * (+401) /* Brainfoctal Sub-languages */ update sub-language examples, with sizes 10:57:53 -!- void__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:23:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:25:30 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:26:27 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 11:31:24 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:31:59 -!- tromp has joined. 11:34:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:34:17 -!- tromp has joined. 11:35:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:42:56 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 11:43:14 -!- sftp has joined. 11:43:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:53:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:55:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:55:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 11:55:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:16:18 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:09:46 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:16:06 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:49:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:51:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:51:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 13:51:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:31:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:31:55 -!- tromp has joined. 14:36:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:36:19 -!- tromp has joined. 14:37:25 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:51:15 [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58552&oldid=53000 * Gamer * (-1) /* Calling functions */ 15:10:58 [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58553&oldid=58516 * Serprex * (+6) /* External resources */ fix wasm link, change github links to https 15:31:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:32:02 -!- tromp has joined. 15:55:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:55:28 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:56:20 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:57:48 -!- aloril_ has joined. 15:57:52 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 15:59:05 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:15:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:17:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:19:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:19:37 -!- tromp has joined. 16:50:49 I don't understand how unemplyment statistics work. If someone is only working one day a week, why do they still count as 100% employed rather than 1/5 employed. This doesn't allow me to estimate how many people have time to riot on any given weekday 16:52:29 it does so to have good looking statistics 16:53:23 Like my initial thoguht for how to estimate the probability of riots in a city building game mod 16:54:15 oren: maybe of interest: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/fulltimeparttimeandtemporaryworkersseasonallyadjustedemp01sa 16:54:19 in germany, everybody in an obligatory job-searching measure that does not yield any money for participants does not count towards unemployment 16:54:20 was to take the number of potential daylight rioters as the unemployed, times a coefficient of national unrest 16:54:35 or something 16:55:23 and then if that number reaches a breaking point of say 50, riots start 16:56:37 myname: agh 16:57:02 myname: ...then who does? 16:57:35 people without a job who aren't 16:57:58 But it's obligatory? 16:58:15 well yeah, it's not permanent though 16:58:22 Oh, I see 16:59:20 if you get mail to do so, you better do. if you sat through it and didn't find something, you are unemployed until you find a job or the next letter arrives 16:59:41 the coefficient of national unrest would, in real life, be dependent on things like the price of bread and the political situation but in a city building game, something like the police level and whther garbage is being collected on time 17:00:30 there was this concept of a city building game in rust that looks like it won't go far, but i like some ideas 17:03:56 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:15:15 -!- imode has joined. 17:16:04 -!- olsner has joined. 17:26:52 [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58554&oldid=49838 * Gamer * (+20) 18:12:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sir Kamba * New user account 18:18:24 hwo do I do a linear regression but force the slope to be 1 18:19:33 in google calc 18:19:53 hmm, wait is that the same thing as the mean of the difference 18:20:23 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 18:22:16 oren: yes it is 18:22:50 ok, hopefully =AVERAGE(A1:A80-B1:B80) is correct for calculating that 18:25:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:31:34 AH SCREW IT (SUM(A1:A80)-SUM(B1:B80))/80 18:34:42 falcon 9 just lifted off 18:35:32 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58555&oldid=58517 * Sir Kamba * (+406) An introduction 19:02:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:14:44 -!- sftp has joined. 19:59:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:26:12 Would you use Netsubscribe once I will do? 20:35:22 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:40:03 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:49:21 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:51:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:00:45 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 21:24:10 -!- Storkman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:24:55 -!- imode has joined. 21:44:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:45:14 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 21:50:21 -!- imode has joined. 21:52:50 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 21:55:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:00:00 -!- MDude has joined. 22:11:01 -!- Storkman has joined. 22:18:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:41:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:44:27 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:45:04 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 22:46:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:10:06 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:15:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:16:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 23:16:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:29:49 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58556&oldid=58518 * Ais523 * (+1067) /* Output extension */ let's define a backwards-compatible method of output to aid debugging and so that this language can be used more practically 23:30:25 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58557&oldid=58556 * Ais523 * (+119) /* Output extension */ clarifications 23:30:52 [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58558&oldid=58557 * Ais523 * (+6) /* External resources */ No IO Output only, now that an output extension has been defined 23:33:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:45:41 -!- imode has joined. 23:50:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:53:34 -!- MDude has joined. 23:54:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:54:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:54:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:54:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 2018-12-04: 00:01:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:36:42 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:41:49 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 01:06:06 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 630 seconds). 01:09:15 -!- Melvar has joined. 01:56:08 I'm surprisingly annoyed at the lack of boxed-slice constructors in Rust 01:56:34 you have to go via a temporary Vec if you want one (assuming that the size isn't known at compile time) 01:56:40 even if you know the size at runtime 01:56:43 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:00:43 even if you know the size at runtime 02:00:51 whoops, meant to do that in my shell, not IRC 02:02:51 Do you know how to play poker with tarot cards or mahjong with pokemon? 02:05:10 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:05:22 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:08:48 [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58559&oldid=58522 * Cortex * (+69) /* Examples */ 02:15:17 [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58560&oldid=58453 * Cortex * (-110) 02:15:39 [[Template:Dead memes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58561 * Cortex * (+123) Created page with "'''WARNING''': This article contains high amounts of dead memes and outdated jokes. Please remember that before proceeding." 02:16:16 [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58562&oldid=22152 * Cortex * (+16) /* Examples */ 03:00:36 Do you like this? 03:01:36 poker with tarot, interesting 03:01:50 I've been meaning to find a use for mine. 03:04:43 There are a number of different games played with tarot. Originally the games were trick taking games, somewhat like whist or bridge, except there is one suit of permanent trumps. In some games the Fool is the highest trump, and in some other games, you can play it at any time even if you are able to follow suit but you will always lose the trick if you play it (it is sometimes called "Excuse" in this case). 03:06:27 (Even though it is either the highest trump or has no numerical value, still it seems it is commonly labeled zero. Someone told me that it is zero because it represents the beginning of a journey; I can see how, although that still does not seem a good enough reason to call it zero when its value in the game isn't actually zero.) 03:14:22 There are a few different games you can find, actually. If you have Latin-suited cards and the rules mention French-suited or vice-versa, you can use the following correspondences: spades=swords, clubs=rods/wands, diamonds=coins (sometimes they have pentagrams printed on them; it is fine if they do), hearts=cups 03:16:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:24:26 very interesting 03:30:45 -!- mniip has joined. 03:34:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:37:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:38:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:51:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:56:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:58:25 Hello 05:10:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:28:44 Hello 05:28:50 Sorry 05:29:30 O, good, I didn't miss any 05:38:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 05:40:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:40:42 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:35:25 [[HARSH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58563&oldid=58549 * ShareMan * (+1059) Fixed computation classification, and just generally made things cleaner, easier to understand, etc. 07:20:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:50:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:07:24 -!- xkapastel has joined. 08:19:17 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 08:41:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:10:35 oh they've removed +r 09:53:23 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:58:07 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:04:14 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:19:14 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:43:37 otppenztarak.hu has one of the worst authentication system I've ever seen on a website 10:44:44 the start seems sane: you enter your email address, which identifies your account, and your password, which you have set earlier. the password has some stupid restrictions on it: I think it must contain at least two digits or something stupid like that. 10:45:08 but then, it sends you a one-time token in email that is valid for 10 minutes only. who the heck thinks that everyone can receive email in 10 minutes? 10:53:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:34:10 [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58564&oldid=58302 * Salpynx * (-119) 11:35:37 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58565&oldid=58534 * Salpynx * (+11) /* A */ A-DU 11:36:21 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html 11:36:22 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html: b_jonas 11:37:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58566&oldid=58565 * Salpynx * (+15) /* G */ 11:41:41 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58567&oldid=58426 * Salpynx * (+80) /* General languages */ 42 11:44:10 ais523: re rust boxed slice constructors, I was confused about that at first, but it turs out that there's a really good reason why it's done this way 11:45:21 ais523: the problem is that a slice or boxed slice has the type invariant that all the elements of he slice are initialized, and you can't initialize a general type, so you can't just make a general boxed slice constructor for any type 11:47:13 ais523: however, you can initialize the elements one by one from left to right, keeping track how much is initialized. in fact, Vec does exactly that, and the rust std guarantees that a Vec allocates the contents the same way as a boxed slice. so there's a safe method that converts a Vec to a boxed slice that is guarateed to not reallocate the memo 11:47:13 ry if the Vec's size is equal to its capacity. 11:48:43 the box is effectively just a start pointer, a size and a capacity; and a boxed slice is effectively a start pointer and a size; and this pointer and size and capacity are local variables that the optimizer can see directly when optimizing your program when you fill a vec. 11:50:36 So the general way to create a boxed slice is to create a boxed vector, possibly extend it to the capacity if you know the size in advance, then push the elements from left to right, then convert it to a boxed slice, which is at that point free. You can even abort by throwing away the vec. 11:51:42 There are some convenience abstractions around this in std, but perhaps not enough, and that part of your complaint might be valid. 11:51:53 But you can write any missing abstractions yourself. 11:52:22 If you want to initialize the slice in an order different from left to right, then you're somewhat screwed though. 11:52:29 There are ways to do that, but they're not easy. 11:53:06 And they're unsafe because there's no way to prove to the compiler that you kept track of which elements are initialized correctly. 11:53:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:55:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:55:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 11:55:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:57:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:02:06 [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58568&oldid=57861 * Salpynx * (+154) /* Interpreter */ Python3 interpreter silliness 12:03:50 [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58569&oldid=58568 * Salpynx * (+37) /* In other languages */ 12:08:38 [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58570&oldid=58564 * Salpynx * (+133) /* Code for languages created by others */ 12:12:45 ais523: I think if you want to initialize the elements in an order other than left to right, then you're screwed. I don't see a sane way to do that and get a Box from it. 12:14:08 You can use a custom container, which uses Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized]> for allocation and deallocation, fill the elements in place in whatever order you want, and once you're sure that all elements are initialized to a valid states, you can expose the contents as a &mut [T], and you can implement this as an unsafe method that calls mem:: 12:14:08 transmute on the slice (not on the box) 12:16:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:21:59 nope, it's even worse if the type has a destructor 12:22:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:23:40 you need a Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized>]> for that 12:24:01 [[Grime MC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58571&oldid=58464 * Salpynx * (+632) Notes on macros 12:33:11 but probably only for a year or two more, I think people already want to add a single wrapper for std::mem::MaybeUninitialized> because it's too common 12:33:34 I bet you'll find one in std within two years 12:45:04 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:45:51 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 12:49:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:02:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:02:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:35:55 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:36:10 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 13:36:35 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:00:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:19:34 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58572&oldid=46762 * Gamer * (+15) /* Truth-machine */ 15:19:53 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58573&oldid=58572 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ 15:20:43 [[Element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58574&oldid=58573 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ 15:22:22 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58575&oldid=58574 * Gamer * (-46) /* Nth Triangular Number */ 15:22:40 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58576&oldid=58575 * Gamer * (-2) /* Digital root calculator */ 15:26:45 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58577&oldid=58576 * Gamer * (-113) /* N Factorial */ 15:28:15 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58578&oldid=58577 * Gamer * (+0) /* Nth Triangular Number */ 15:33:30 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58579&oldid=58578 * Gamer * (-121) /* GCD of two numbers */ 15:33:42 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58580&oldid=58579 * Gamer * (+24) /* N Factorial */ 15:33:44 -!- siraben has left ("Kicked by @appservice-irc:matrix.org : issued !quit command"). 15:33:55 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58581&oldid=58580 * Gamer * (+24) /* Digital root calculator */ 15:36:29 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58582&oldid=58581 * Gamer * (+46) /* N Factorial */ 15:37:06 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58583&oldid=58582 * Gamer * (+36) /* Truth-machine */ 15:37:46 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58584&oldid=58583 * Gamer * (-40) /* GCD of two numbers */ 15:39:24 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58585&oldid=58584 * Gamer * (-45) /* Nth Fibonacci number */ 15:39:46 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58586&oldid=58585 * Gamer * (-34) /* GCD of two numbers */ 15:42:12 [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58587&oldid=58586 * Gamer * (+76) /* Digital root calculator */ 15:44:11 talk about exeggerating 15:55:22 -!- hexfive has joined. 16:11:12 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:14:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:29:13 [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58588&oldid=46060 * Gamer * (-13) /* Hello World! */ 18:49:51 DYK? "lockheed" is pronounced /lɒxid/ 18:51:29 What's the c doing in there? 18:56:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:05:56 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 19:10:42 [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58589&oldid=57853 * Gamer * (-28) /* Hello, world! program */ 19:18:25 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:19:45 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:31:19 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 19:31:35 -!- b_jonas has joined. 20:07:22 `2 quote 20:07:23 2/1: 20:07:26 no no 20:07:40 ``` for x in 0 1; do quote; done 20:07:41 120) cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 157) well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy and i own a piano and i'm not wearing socks 20:07:52 ``` for x in 0 1; do wisdom; done 20:07:53 ​afk//Afk wrote a famous story about hang. \ lunacy//LUNacy is wisdom generated by a neu^Wlayered unit net. Ask Warrigal for details. 20:17:46 `n 2 quote 20:17:46 2 quote/1:/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 4: extra characters after command \ /hackenv/bin/n: line 1: 2 quote: syntax error in expression (error token is "quote") 20:18:01 hm 20:18:14 that's not right 20:20:15 `` \`^ 2 quote 20:20:16 1/1:412) Non sequitur is my forte On-topic discussion is my piano Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte Full fat milk is my pianissimo On which note, I'm hungry \ 937) Are you sure this isn't the Sims can you get married to your variables? this is a feature I find lacking in most languages 20:26:33 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: rebooting). 20:41:26 -!- Melvar has joined. 20:44:40 -!- b has joined. 20:44:48 -!- b has quit (Client Quit). 21:20:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:20:47 -!- tromp has joined. 21:22:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:23:01 does anyone know of a data structure which lets me do this?: we can add elements to the structure and it records when each element was added (new additions replace earlier additions of the previous element), and we can efficiently discover which elements have been added since a specific element was last added 21:23:28 something like a linked deque + an index into it would work, I think, but I'm wondering if there's anything simpelr 21:24:44 `unidecode µ 21:24:44 ​[U+00B5 MICRO SIGN] 21:37:12 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 21:41:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:41:28 -!- tromp has joined. 21:43:42 on another note, how many languages use "if … else" (with no "then" clause) for what Perl/Ruby call "unless"? 21:46:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:48:51 huh, that's an interesting syntactic idea, and makes enough sense 21:51:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:51:53 if(x == 30);else{ } 21:52:56 yes, it's easy enough to stick a dummy "then" part in 21:57:15 ais523: hi. see logs for today about your rust question. 21:58:32 ais523: I don't see how a linked deque and index would work, you'd have to update a lot of indexes. a heap and indexes could work, because you can delete any element and you only have to update log(size) number of indexes. 21:59:08 hm wait, what operations exactly do you want to do 22:01:32 the index would be a map from an element to the object representing that element inside the deque (that's why it has to be a /linked/ deque) 22:02:11 the operations I need that can't trivially be abstracted out into a separate structure are adding an element to the structure, and getting a list of all elements added more recently than a specific element 22:02:25 also if I add the same element repeatedly, earlier additions should be forgotten rather than leaking memory 22:02:41 in case it helps, I know all possible elements that could be added in advance 22:03:04 elements can be compared for equality easily (in the situation I want to use this they're just integers) 22:03:22 I was hoping that there'd be some existing structure which supports this so that I could look for an implementation in libraries 22:03:51 re: the Rust question discussion in logs, I was expecting something that created an /initialised/ boxed slice, e.g. by copying a given element a given number of times (like vec! does) 22:05:07 ais523: oh, you mean a deque plus an dictionary with the element value as key, and an iterator into the deque as the value. that works, I was confused by "index" then 22:05:24 a linked list deque that is 22:05:29 so that the elements have stable nodes 22:05:31 yes, that works 22:05:32 I meant it in the sense of "database index" 22:05:44 of course, databases are good at this, because they're basically a general-purpose data structure 22:05:51 but it feels like something simpler should work too 22:05:57 [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58590&oldid=58559 * Cortex * (+34293) /* Examples */ 22:06:11 (also I'm writing this program in Rust, and a linked deque is one of the simplest things that Rust is /really/ bad at…) 22:06:29 I was thinking of a heap (such as a binary or quaternary heap) and a dictionary from the key to the index into the heap. I know you can efficiently maintain a dictionary from the element to the index in a binary heap, I've implemented that. 22:06:34 it's not clear which of these is better her 22:07:36 ais523: no way. you never delete elements, so you can put the deque nodes in a Vec that will never shrink, and you never waste memory, and use indexes or 32-bit indexes into that Vec for the links. 22:08:08 b_jonas: oh, that does work, it's weird to think about using indexes rather than pointers though 22:08:22 especially as the bounds checks happen at runtime not compile-time 22:08:29 using indexes is generally a good idea because it's easy to automatically bounds checked which catches some (not all) silly mistakes with pointer stupidity, and allows you to use 32-bit indexes in a 64-bit address space 22:08:49 no need to allocate each node separately 22:09:30 this is the main reason why I think x32 is a silly idea. if in the structures or loops where you really need to optimize for performance, you just use 32-bit indexes, then the 64-bit pointers never bother you. 22:10:03 admittedly the rust std isn't too well-suited for that, but ideally if you wrote everything in machine language, that would work, and rust or C++ allow good enough approximations. 22:11:05 rust is in a slight disadvantage here, but in the very rare cases when that causes a performance problem, you just optimze the inner loop by reimplementing it in something that isn't rust. 22:11:19 or give dirty hints to rust to speed it up 22:11:47 doesn't using pointers directly, rather than index + base pointer, reduce register pressure? 22:11:51 probably eventually in future rust that won't be necessary, they just add enough stuff in the compiler and std 22:12:18 ais523: perhaps, but usually register pressure is less of a problem on x86_64 than L1 cache and L2 cache throughput 22:12:25 and decoder throughput and stuff like that 22:12:46 especially on modern x86_64 22:13:49 now I'm wondering if simple dereferences like mov [reg], reg take up less instruction-cache pressure than complex ones like mov [base+index*4], reg 22:13:59 and register throughput problems is something that has some chance of automatically fixing themselves without changing your code when you install a new compiler with a better optimizer, whereas cache throughput is less likely to do that 22:14:33 ais523: that really depends on the compiler 22:15:34 but you aren't likely to get [base+index*4] or [base+index*8] indexes here unless you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, because your element size is greater than 8 bytes 22:15:38 what's "that" referring to? if it's my most recent comment, I'm talking about at the machine code → micro-op level of abstraction, well below the compiler 22:16:35 instead, you'll get a silly 64-bit shift instruction to do the multiplication, and you won't be able to convince rust to optimize that a 32-bit multiplication, because you can't easily tell the compiler that the array size is less than 32 bytes. 22:17:15 oh, I see, you're claiming that the more condensed instructions might not even be generatable 22:17:18 "that" is referencing "register throughput problems" 22:17:54 ais523: they might be if you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, but you rarely care that much about performance 22:18:08 microoptimize your code only when it's really the bottleneck 22:19:46 yes 22:21:51 I'd like to note that in this case, since you always insert new elements whose weights are larger than every existing element, inserting a new element takes constant time, you're not moving anything, just pushing an element with the next weight at the end of the array 22:22:04 you probably need to keep a counter tha tracks the next weight separately 22:22:36 if you rarely update elements, then that's the simplest one, but since you didn't mention deleting elements, I think you want to update elements often 22:23:19 mind you, adding a new element to the front of a deque is about as simple 22:23:37 and the dictionary insert has about the same cost in either case 22:23:46 hmm wait 22:23:53 you can't just keep inserting at the end of an array 22:23:57 the heap won't work at all 22:24:00 because then you'll end up growing the array forever 22:24:15 or at least, not easily 22:24:35 ais523: but you need to grow the array when you insert a new element, as opposed to updating an element with an existing key 22:25:27 ok, I think you're right. use a deque 22:25:33 a linked list deque 22:27:48 hmm wait, there's a trickier way 22:28:59 I've been looking for existing Rust modules which have the right functionality; one of them uses a really clever trick 22:29:15 the elements I'm adding are small integers 22:29:49 and this data structure is designed for them; it basically has an array which stores the next integer and previous integer for each integer n at the nth slot 22:29:53 ais523: trickier way, slower but less memory: use a singly linked list, with pointers towards older elements, and a dictionary with the value of an iterator to the previous element. when you remove an element, look up the next element by its value in the dictionary, and update that dict entry too as well as the dict entry for the element you move to the front. 22:30:28 next /element/, previous /element/ rather than next /pointer/, previous /pointer/ (or simulating pointers using indexes) simplifies things a lot 22:30:42 ais523: how many elements do you expect to have? if it's very small, like 8, then there are tricks 22:31:09 it scales based on the size of user input 22:31:10 ais523: that works only if your elements (keys) are of small size 22:31:18 but it's consecutive from 0 22:31:28 ais523: ok, so it's not like always less than 16 22:31:42 right, in practice it'll usually be small but I don't want a hard limit 22:32:05 (the values themselves are `usize`s) 22:32:36 ais523: there's a crazy structure used in hardware caches to handle the 8-way caching that stores binom(8,2) bits and lets the hardware update one of the eight slot to make it the newest one, and find the oldest slot so it knows which element to drop when it has to insert a new one 22:33:26 I probably won't use that, but am curious about how it works 22:33:45 ais523: if it's between 8 and 64, then you might not care about asymptotic performance, and implement this as a simple vector of the integer values where you search the value with a linear search, and memmove part of the array to insert or delete something 22:34:08 ais523: there's a bit for each pair of the 8 elements, and it tells whether the first one is newer than the other 22:35:17 inserting a new element to a slot needs to update 8 of those 28 bits, which is somewhat easy and fast in hardware in this case 22:35:45 oh yes, I can see how that would work now 22:36:33 so much that I guess the bottleneck is not that age array, but the dispatch logic to find one of the eight elements matching the 6-bit address 22:36:53 to be honest a linear search would probably be fast enough for me too, but it was a set of performance properties I hadn't seen before in a data structure, so it prompted me to ask here 22:38:05 you need to do that address compare in each of the eight elements, then three layers of if-else to forward one of them, and then a comparison to the upper bits of the address when it arrives from the page table cache (it's not called "page table cache", it has a fancier name that I keep forgetting, but that's what it really is) 22:38:24 and all of that must go through within a clock cycle ideally 22:38:28 in the L1 cache that is 22:38:36 you get slightly more slack in the L2 cache 22:38:56 this is a program I'm heavily optimising partly just for practice/curiosity/the sake of it (it's an esolang interpreter, people hyperoptimise those for brainfuck…) 22:39:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:39:07 no wait 22:39:11 that's not how it works 22:40:24 first you find a 64-way dispatch for the right slot with 8 cache entries from the 6 middle bits of the address, and THEN when the address arrives from the page table, only then can you compare the upper lots of address bits to the eight slots and do the eight-bit dispatch 22:40:28 sorry 22:40:33 that sounds even harder 22:40:56 that's why it's hard to make the latency low, since the page table cache also has a latency 22:41:11 memory latency is a huge problem for today's computers 22:43:08 I think the big problem is that until we design an entirely new architecture where we can be sure that no software depends on that pages are allowed to be 4k sized, we can't have an L1 cache larger than 32K (4K times eight). we've had CPUs with 32K L1 data cache and 32K L1 code cache for almost a decade, even though the operating systems mostly want to use 8K pages, 22:43:33 and we can't fix this while we want x86 compatibility. 22:43:56 it's one of these stupid historical things. 4k pages made sense back in 386 when computers had a few megabytes of memory. 22:44:09 sometimes just one or two megabytes 22:44:28 the issue isn't really so much the size of the pages, as the minimum granularity of the page table 22:44:38 and larger L1 caches would help a lot 22:44:39 [[Doreq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58591&oldid=58377 * Unitan * (+35) 22:44:54 ais523: what do you mean by the granularity? the cache line size? I think that's fine being 64 bytes as is. 22:44:59 if you said "the pages are 512 bytes but you can only map them in units of megabytes" people would be fine with that 22:45:05 b_jonas: minimum size/alignment of a page map 22:45:29 ais523: if you can only map them in units of megabytes, then what would the 512 byte mean? in what sense would it be a page? 22:46:40 presumably it'd be used for things like bounds checks 22:47:00 ais523: hmm, so you'd have a size entry in each page? why's that useful? 22:47:12 I mean, it could be done, but I don't see the point 22:47:50 well, what's the purpose of a page? 22:48:09 sometimes it's for memory allocation purposes, sometimes it's to get useful side effects from the page faults 22:48:18 you could divorce the two, I think 22:48:39 ais523: for a cpu page, which is what we're talking about here, it's mapping from virtual memory address space (of a process) to "physical" memory address space in a way that the cpu dispatches the mapping automatically at every ordinary memory access 22:49:45 "physical" address ideally means what's sent to the main memory, but it could be different if there's virtualization or legacy 32 bit large memory shenanigans involved 22:50:30 right, and I don't see why virtual→physical mapping would need a small granularity nowadays unless you're intentionally overlapping pages in weird ways 22:51:33 ais523: anyway, if you add a size field to a page, and you set it to less than maximum size, then you're probably wasting the rest of the physical page, because it's unlikely that you'll quickly find another partial page that you can allocate in the same place that has just the right page size alignment 22:52:23 b_jonas: OK, so what about a setup that works like this: you can set up virtual→physical maps which have a large minimum size and alignment, but you can "mask" parts of a virtual page so that they pagefault when accessed 22:52:31 rather than going to the physical page behind 22:52:37 it could perhaps be useful for catching some stack overflows 22:52:57 then you can effectively split a physical page between multiple virtual pages as long as the low bits in the virtual addresses are all distinct from each otehr 22:53:00 but I don't think that's likely useful 22:53:17 it would just make so that we have to automatically extend the stack more often than once every few pages 22:53:54 ais523: make part of a page masked to unreadable? perhaps, but I don't really think it's worth the cost. 22:54:32 b_jonas: well, the point is you have to pay this cost anyway when you have small pages 22:54:38 so this is saving part of the cost 22:54:44 ais523: I mean, then you'll need extra bits in the page table cache, which is something that has to be really close to the L1 cache and core on the cpu die for latency 22:54:55 and it's definitely useful to be able to mask, say, the code section and data section of an executable map differently 22:55:03 although, hmm 22:55:07 I just had an idea 22:55:24 ais523: not really. if you actually use smaller pages, rather than just allow smaller pages, then you pay the page table cost 22:56:03 make it so that the high bits of a pointer specify what sort of accesses can be used via it; then instead of having permissions specified separately in the page table, they're specified indirectly by what virtual address you mapped the physical page to 22:56:09 ais523: but currently, the cpu allows 4k pages, but most pages are actually larger, megabyte sized (we don't have 8K or 16K pages on x86_64 I think, but we could in the future), which is better because they take up less space in the page table cache 22:56:19 well, not yet, but OSes are getting better with large pages 22:56:30 eventually we will be using mostly megabyte-sized pages on x86_64 22:56:46 and then you don't pay for the cost of the small pages in the page table cache, but only in the L1 22:57:32 and once you require larger pages, with no mask bits, you have a page table cache that is about as efficient as currently, only slightly more because it doesn't handle small pages at all, and an L1 cache that can finally break the 32 kilobyte barrier 22:58:08 it's still tricky, you can't just increase the L1 cache to as large as you want, because that also increases the latency of that cache 22:59:24 you might even end up with an L1 cache and an L1.5 cache, the L1.5 cache being slower than the L1 cache, but still works like the current L1 cache in that it can tell which group of 8 elements to use before the page table cache tells the address 23:00:14 you might even drop the L2 cache, and have only an L1 cache, and L1.5 cache, and what's currently called an L3 cache 23:00:20 though that's not likely 23:00:31 I dunno really 23:00:37 at this point I just don't have the hardware competence 23:00:40 I can't predict 23:02:40 I think the future of hardware is mostly moving towards trying to make the memory structure less general so that it can be faster in special cases 23:03:04 for example, GPUs typically use batch memory transfer mechanisms and suspend threads while waiting for the memory values to arrive 23:03:21 and NUMA allows different CPU cores to have different RAM 23:04:16 I'm a software guy who wants to optimize stuff on existing or near future consumer PC cpus, and only trying to understand cpus and compilers from that direction 23:05:32 ais523: sure, the point of NUMA is that if each half of the cpu is accessing the RAM that's close to him, then the two halves can do memory transfer faster, and possibly with slihghtly lower latency too 23:05:52 yes 23:06:50 this is useful if you have processes that are really well parallelizable to twofolds, as in, two parts are very independent in what memory they use, which is common, then you get higher memory performance with cheaper hardware 23:07:08 and it's common to have tasks that partition to two easily 23:07:53 I've used a 2-way numa server to compress several videos in parallel, the bulk of each video compression runs on one core 23:08:08 one cpu core that is, with some gpu magic involved too 23:09:00 and the raw video is read to the half of the main RAM that compresses that video, and then the intermediate storage used for the compression is in that half too 23:09:21 well, ideally 23:09:31 I sort of have to trust the OS to do the Sane Thing in the common case 23:11:33 compressing half of several videos still takes too much memory that it probably overflows an L3 cache 23:12:03 CPU → GPU memory transfers are really really slow (the other direction is IIRC even slower, but less useful) 23:14:10 ais523: sure, but for video compression it's still worth, because a part of the video compression can be really sped up by a GPU 23:14:26 assuming you have a modern GPU of course 23:14:57 it's the kind of tasks GPUs are optimized for 23:16:34 indeed 23:19:11 and I think if you do both the finding the nearby similar square in previous frames thing on the GPU and the discrete cosine/wavelet/etc transform on the GPU too, then you can keep all the data in the deeper parts of the GPU between those two 23:20:21 so ideally you only transfer each frame to GPU only once and do all the tasks there, then transfer the result back to CPU which does further processing on it and writes the file 23:21:05 there's some other operations besides those two, like possibly partly decoding the frames from the input format if it's already compressed, subtraction, color space transform, etc 23:21:48 or even resizing to lower resolution or other operations done at the same time as the encoding 23:22:07 or, heck, deinterlacing and resizing to lower resolution 23:40:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:59:18 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 2018-12-05: 00:06:31 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:14:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:14:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:43:03 -!- hexfive has joined. 01:24:09 -!- imode has joined. 01:26:42 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:31:08 -!- xkapastel has joined. 01:35:57 -!- Essadon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:41:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:43:02 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:30:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:54:27 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:09:18 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 04:15:17 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:49:39 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 04:52:13 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:20:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:32:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:35:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:52:35 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:44:36 -!- verisimilitude has joined. 06:44:43 Hello. 06:49:15 I figured I'd add a language I created to the Esolang wiki, even though it's just a derivative of Brainfuck; do I need an account in order to add a page? 06:51:37 Yes. 06:52:10 Alright; before I add it, perhaps I should explain what the language is, since I figure you'll be able to tell me if it's been done before. 06:52:19 What I did was make Brainfuck homoiconic. 06:54:47 I don't think "homoiconic" means anything 06:55:14 I added a new command, =, that conditionally copies the program into the data array or copies the data array into the program and then starts executing it. 06:55:57 A quine looks like this: =[.>] This is a quine. 06:56:31 A quine looks like this: =[.>] 06:56:48 So, that's what I meant by ``homoiconic''. 07:14:21 -!- imode has joined. 07:28:07 * Sgeo_ is now wondering about mechanical ways to translate that into pure Brainfuck 07:29:44 I've not attempted that, at least not yet. 07:30:19 I have a page with an (incomplete) interpreter written in APL here: 07:30:19 http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-02-02 07:30:44 It's incomplete because I didn't know how I wanted to handle unbalanced brackets; now I know but I haven't corrected this yet. 07:31:03 Asides from that one detail, the APL interpreter is complete. 07:33:43 Also, note that this page is the oldest on my website and in most need of editing; it's outdated and needs improvement; I'll improve this page before I put anything on the Esolang wiki. 08:16:16 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 08:28:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:22:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:27:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:27:57 -!- tromp has joined. 09:28:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:28:36 -!- tromp has joined. 09:52:30 [[Doreq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58592&oldid=58591 * Oerjan * (-35) Revert - doesn't look reversible to me, X can be clobbered. 09:54:22 -!- xkapastel has joined. 09:59:56 @metar ENVA 09:59:57 ENVA 050950Z 18009KT 110V200 9999 FEW038 BKN059 01/M04 Q1008 TEMPO 4000 -SHRASN VV014 RMK WIND 670FT 20015KT 10:00:08 snow has come late this year 10:25:36 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:26:31 verisimilitude: just copying the code to the data is easy, you don't even need quining techniques. for copying data to code, you need a full brainfuck interpreter. 10:26:57 I mean, if you want to translate such a program to brainfuck 10:34:56 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 11:54:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:57:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:57:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 11:57:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:20:43 `2 quote 12:20:44 2/1: 12:20:51 `cat bin/2 12:20:52 ​\` "$@" |& sport 2 12:21:02 `cat bin/quote 12:21:02 ​#!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi 12:21:10 `cat bin/sport 12:21:10 cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}" 12:21:20 `quote 12:21:20 91) like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: that's great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 12:22:13 oh duh 12:22:19 `1 quote 12:22:20 1/1:1237) Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory? 12:23:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:23:34 Ooh that's a me quote 12:24:08 `quote Taneb 12:24:09 384) Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 390) Cut to February War were declared A galaxy in turmoil Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 391) I can't afford one of those! A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 397) There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] You've just gave 12:24:31 I now have a laser printer 12:26:01 So I just need to learn how to use a sword and I will have achieved all my ambitions 12:29:54 Taneb: yes, you're among the most quotable people. I made a statistics, it's somewhere in the logs. 12:30:12 wob_jonas: I don't think I've been quoted that much in the past few years 12:30:29 let me look up the numbers 12:30:41 Possibly because I've got a life, or at least hang out in a wider range of IRC channels 12:31:02 https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-07.html#lsb 12:31:32 you're more than half as quotable as the most quoted person 12:31:49 52 Taneb quotes, the highest is 103 zzo38 quotes 12:33:15 and the twelfth most quoted nick 12:50:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:59:04 `" 12:59:05 369) [...] only the hamster's nervous system was tortured. although probably torturing a large logical gate constitutes a horrible thing to do if it comes in a cute container. \ 632) Dinner? At two? It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight. 13:13:21 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 13:16:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:16:22 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 13:16:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 13:16:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:24:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 13:27:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:27:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 13:27:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 13:27:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:30:16 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:31:12 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:33:03 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 13:34:12 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AIden * New user account 13:48:42 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58593&oldid=58555 * AIden * (+206) 14:03:08 [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58594&oldid=57412 * AIden * (+185) 14:13:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:43:09 -!- verisimilitude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:51:28 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:05:58 [[Autopsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58595 * Keymaker * (+4141) Autopsy, a tarpit with 2 instructions and 4 registers/counters. 15:08:19 -!- imode has joined. 15:14:09 [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58596&oldid=53847 * Keymaker * (+115) Added Autopsy. 15:19:24 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58597&oldid=56828 * Keymaker * (+41) /* Survey */ 15:29:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:38:51 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:49:41 -!- dingbat has quit (Quit: Updating details, brb). 15:50:07 -!- dingwat has joined. 15:50:39 -!- dingwat has quit (Client Quit). 15:51:12 -!- dingwat has joined. 15:51:40 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:53:51 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 16:45:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:56:46 -!- imode has joined. 17:14:10 -!- verisimilitude has joined. 17:34:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:43:29 -!- hexfive has joined. 17:53:36 @metar lowi 17:53:37 LOWI 051720Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW009 BKN090 04/03 Q1024 NOSIG 17:54:01 fungot: did you hide the swatter? 17:54:01 int-e: btw people, i see, so is a ( pseudo) register based one 18:02:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:13:50 [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58598&oldid=44642 * Gamer * (-8) /* Truth-machine */ 18:14:59 [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58599&oldid=58598 * Gamer * (+20) /* Truth-machine */ 18:15:03 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:15:09 [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58600&oldid=58599 * Gamer * (+1) /* Truth-machine */ 18:15:29 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 18:15:57 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:47:53 -!- Ana- has joined. 18:48:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:48:39 Hello? 18:48:59 helo 18:49:25 how are you? :) 18:50:44 im fine 18:51:09 the real question is how is esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment 18:53:17 Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people 18:53:21 😥 18:54:28 idk if you're likely to have much luck there 18:54:38 this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people 18:54:51 Hello, Ana-. 18:55:21 hello verosimilitude ;) 18:55:22 So, you don't want to discuss programming at all, Ana-? 18:55:55 hehehe just friends wanted...Where are you from? 18:56:47 Well, if you trace my IP I'm from Georgia, but that's not where I really am. 18:57:22 and where are you from?.Someone from Argentina? 😉 18:57:27 Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want to continue discussing things, I suppose, Ana-; there's no point in cluttering this channel. 18:57:45 ah!!!!! thanks!!!! ;) 18:58:16 and thanks Phantom_Hoover for answering!! :) 19:24:12 -!- brandonson has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:30:14 `addquote Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people 😥 idk if you're likely to have much luck there this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people 19:30:16 1329) Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people 😥 idk if you're likely to have much luck there this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people 19:39:37 -!- Ana- has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:32:14 `quote fungot 20:32:14 olsner: i should write an imperative-functional compiler probably doesn't have high priority. it's rather... large. so we create a wrapper structure. 20:32:14 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) i am sad ( of course by analogy) 20:46:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:47:25 -!- verisimilitude has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"). 20:51:04 -!- b_jonas has joined. 20:51:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:11:38 `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/ 21:11:39 pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale 21:30:39 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:40:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:17:23 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:27:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:38:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:41:55 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 23:54:00 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:54:23 -!- imode1 has joined. 23:55:01 -!- imode1 has quit (Client Quit). 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:56:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:57:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2018-12-06: 00:14:58 -!- imode has joined. 00:17:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:57:54 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:02:08 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 01:41:32 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58601&oldid=58523 * Cortex * (-68) 03:56:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 04:15:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:21:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:03:43 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:56:37 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 08:06:07 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:54:10 -!- incomprehensibly has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:54:52 -!- incomprehensibly has joined. 09:03:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:07:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:35:25 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:42:23 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58602&oldid=58429 * Gamer * (-8) /* MarioLANG */ 10:44:03 [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58603&oldid=57716 * Gamer * (-1) /* Syntax */ 10:45:01 [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58604&oldid=58603 * Gamer * (+1) /* Binary Operators */ 10:47:14 [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58605&oldid=58604 * Gamer * (+1) /* Cotangent */ 10:48:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:56:03 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58606&oldid=58602 * Gamer * (-60) /* Alight */ 11:55:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:57:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:57:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 11:57:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:40:44 [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58607&oldid=58203 * Gamer * (+36) /* See also */ 12:41:54 [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58608&oldid=58607 * Gamer * (-43) /* Truth-machine */ 12:42:41 [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58609&oldid=58608 * Gamer * (+38) /* Truth-machine */ 12:59:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:07:13 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:32:29 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 13:33:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 13:34:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:00:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:29:29 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:45:50 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:46:35 Autopsy feels like there should be some way to make it TC with three counters 14:47:02 (you can do it with just two if the distance jumped forwards after each instruction were changed to be much larger, but I suspect that would miss the point of the language) 14:58:04 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: quit). 15:15:45 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:16:46 some people really don't know how to make informative documentation. they just spew this shit with some automatic doc generation tool. "InStr([start, ]string1, string2[, compare])" bad parameter naming. let's see the description of those parameters: 15:17:09 "string1: Required. String expression being searched. / string2: Required. String expression sought." 15:17:37 The function "Returns a Variant (Long) specifying the position of the first occurrence of one string within another." 15:19:12 It does eventuall leak which argument is which a page later, but at that point it's easier to give up and just take a glance at http://www.antonis.de/qbebooks/gwbasman/ and hope that no BASIC implementation gets the arguments swapped. 15:20:23 GWBASIC manual: "To search for the first occurrence of string y$ in x$, and return the position at which the string is found. / INSTR([n,]x$,y$)" see, that's one way to be clear. "INSTR([startpos,]haystack$,needle$)" would be even better, but that may be a later invention. 15:28:34 wob_jonas: https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MGEz 15:29:01 Is how they wrote it for QBasic. 15:29:23 I think that's a disprovement. Or whatever the opposite of improvement was, mind is blank & time for a meeting. -> 15:30:17 fizzie: hehe 16:08:15 -!- hexfive has joined. 16:59:07 -!- ilia has joined. 17:02:06 -!- ilia has left ("ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)"). 17:29:41 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:44:21 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:57:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:57:54 -!- tromp has joined. 18:13:44 -!- imode has joined. 18:16:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:16:56 -!- tromp has joined. 18:35:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:38:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:39:50 `icode ’ 18:39:51 ​[U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK] 18:52:24 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:57:54 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:59:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:37 -!- tromp has joined. 18:59:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:55 -!- tromp has joined. 19:22:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:23:13 -!- tromp has joined. 19:29:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:36:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:55:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:40:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:45:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:20:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:20:51 -!- tromp has joined. 21:29:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:34:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:48:19 WHO PUT NUMBERS IN MY GOEGARPHY DATA! 21:48:32 AAAAAAAAAAA 21:49:10 oh, nver mind, it was me 21:49:13 hiren 21:49:30 did you fix your build system and/or quit your job yet twh 21:50:12 shachaf: no, I am currently working on replacing some of it though. replacing a bunch of programs in Go, with C++ 21:50:50 Only problem is I am bad at understanding what Go code does 21:51:31 and I have three other things which are higher priority than fxing the build system, one of which is adding features to the build system 21:51:56 what about quitting your job, though 21:52:22 shachaf: They keep raising my salary 21:52:32 shachaf: so, not yet 21:53:33 but if you switched jobs it'd probably go up even more 21:54:09 the salingularity 21:54:24 `owrjan 21:54:25 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 21:55:03 `swrjan s/render/remember/; s/connivance/convenience/ 21:55:05 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 21:55:27 how retro 21:56:26 shachaf: yeah but then I would have to learn a new build system 21:57:11 oren: just ask for a bunch more money to compensate hth 21:57:51 oren: do you really have to? doesn't the build system only come with the culture, and you could still just invoke the compiler with any other build system? 22:00:58 b_jonas: I suppose. I guess my company has alot more trouble because most of what the "build system" does is crunching data and autogenerating code, not actually finding dependencies or running G++ 22:01:36 in fact the part of the build system I'm working on doesn't run any compilers 22:02:05 it turns CSV source data into CSV result data 22:02:09 oren: in that case, combine the two build systems. do they hate each others? 22:02:45 let one call into the other and back 22:02:50 to depth 10 or so 22:03:06 with some of the steps running on a remote machine too 22:03:29 b_jonas: that already happens. the current build system does make -> shell script -> make -> perl -> make -> perl 22:04:06 oren: good. is the tangly part sorely lacking documentation or anyone else other than you who understands it, for job security? 22:04:33 oren: needs more python, rust, go, swift, and fortran 22:04:38 b_jonas: I wrote documentation but afaict noone has read any of it 22:04:43 oren: yeah 22:04:47 documentation doesn't really matter 22:04:49 nobody reads it 22:04:59 it can be a good way to protect your back 22:05:20 int-e: the shell script uses tools written in C++, Go, Haskell, and Ruby 22:05:41 oren: oh I forgot about Ruby. 22:05:56 * int-e is living a cozy life. 22:05:59 I am working on exorcizing the languages I dont know from the system 22:06:13 or know but don't like 22:06:28 make sure the stuff breaks the moment you leave, but the simply solution shall be plainly documented in the documentation, and you shall have several ignored emails you send in which you point to that documentation and explain how important it is that its steps are followed, and you ask your supervisor to forward that information to the next person managing the build system 22:06:41 and put the documentation right next to the build system too so they can't claim to have lost it 22:06:46 they still won't be able to find anything 22:07:51 I'll have to find time to write such documentation too 22:08:10 I already have a system that nobody else can use 22:08:11 `? time 22:08:12 time? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:08:16 `datei 22:08:17 2018-12-06 22:08:17.098855625+00:00 22:08:39 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:08:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:09:12 . o O ( `learn time//There's never enough time to write a good wisdom entry so this is what you get instead. ) 22:10:43 is the part where you learn learn instead of le//rn part of what makes it not a good wisdom 22:11:33 perhaps 22:11:47 `? learn 22:11:48 ​`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] [s][punctuation] [...] 22:11:56 `? le/rn 22:11:57 le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn // 22:12:09 That joke is no longer applicable. :-( 22:12:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:12:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:13:45 oren: so if the salary raises are what's keeping you there, is there an amount of money that would convince you to switch jobs + build systems 22:13:59 i bet you could get it if you were motivated hth 22:14:19 ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u" 22:14:20 2018-12-06 22:14:19 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4 22:14:31 ``` cat bin/dateu 22:14:32 ​#!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n -u "$@" 22:14:49 `dateu 22:14:50 2018-12-06 22:14:50.194302513+00:00 22:15:02 how do I get GNU date to print fractions of seconds with an explicit format? 22:15:23 ah, %N 22:15:29 ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u" 22:15:29 2018-12-06 22:15:29.719776794 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4 22:16:13 ``` f=bin/dateu; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f" 22:16:15 No output. 22:16:17 `dateu 22:16:17 2018-12-06 22:16:17.262646602 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4 22:16:27 ``` f=bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f" 22:16:28 No output. 22:16:30 `datei 22:16:30 2018-12-06 22:16:30.538588903 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4 22:16:38 that reminds me, a few weeks ago I was thingking what if you had a CPU that only used floats 22:16:50 `? mkx 22:16:51 mkx? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:16:52 how would one use foating point numbers as adressles 22:16:54 oren: yeah, those things used to exist back when integrated circuits were cheap 22:16:57 `mkx 22:16:57 usage: mk[x] file//contents 22:17:15 oren: You could address bits! It'd be great. 22:17:26 oren: also, there are high level languages with only floats (well, sort of), such as on my SHARP EL-5120 programmable calculator 22:17:34 the floating point arithmetic is a bit strange too 22:17:59 there is a sign are twelve decimal digits of mantissa, and two digits with sign of exponent of 10, 22:18:13 only 10 digits are displayed 22:18:31 so you'd think it's easy to store 12 decimal digits in a number, but it's not, 22:18:40 because there's a strange quirk in the arithmetic operations: 22:19:10 if you subtract two numbers and their exponent differs by 10 or 11, then the small number is treated as zero 22:19:18 it won't subtract it from the last two digits 22:19:23 same if they're added 22:19:35 so you don't have reliable 12 decimal digit integer arithmetic 22:19:45 you could work this around, but it's not easy with such limited programming 22:19:55 shachaf: did you know that https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/BT.html actually allows you to address bits in memory (i.e., it'? 22:19:58 so I mostly just stored 8 or 10 decimal digits in a variable 22:20:08 when I didn't use it as a float that is 22:20:17 (i.e. it's meaningful to use offsets < 0 or > 64 with a 64 bit memory operand) 22:20:25 make that >= 64. 22:20:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:20:47 it also has what appears to be an 8-bit processor, so arithmetic is slow, and transcendental operations are very slow, but ordinary control flow and copying around values is fast, 22:20:58 int-e: fancy 22:21:17 which is what makes the substitute for the missing arrays viable, which is a loop that cycles around 8 or 10 variables by 1, and keeps track of how much it's rotated 22:21:32 that is fast and uses very little program memory or labels 22:22:22 there's only about 1100 bytes of program memory (every function or statement heading takes just a single byte, and every line has an overhead of only 3 bytes), and a program is limited to 20 labels 22:28:48 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:41:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:13:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:14:39 it strikes me that the "symbols" listing in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit is completely missing the mathematical point 23:15:02 it should be describing the number of distinguishable values per memory cell (thus, the counter-based languages effectively have infinitely many symbols) 23:15:12 but I'm not sure that that's a useful statistic for esolangs 23:15:24 because they don't normally allow you to give arbitrary actions to arbitrary symbols 23:15:29 (when they do, you typically have a tag system) 23:18:16 oren: there are plenty of higher-level languages which have floats as their only numeric type 23:18:39 normally, when you need integers, you use 32-bit integers and store them in doubles 23:30:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:30:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:31:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:40:22 "arbitrary actions to arbitrary systems" => hmm. finitely many symbols, or infinitely many? the latter is harder. 23:41:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 23:42:46 -!- imode has joined. 23:44:11 Today I folded up my double bed to single bed configuration. Out came a shitton of dust that doesn't get out in normal cleaning, and two M:tG cards. There are probably some more under it somewhere. 23:44:27 This isn't the first time I found M:tG cards under it. I've found other lost stuff too a few times. 23:45:00 `? taneb 23:45:01 Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions). 23:45:08 I offered Taneb some Magic: The Gathering cards but he didn't take them. 23:47:39 b_jonas: I think there are plenty of languages which (at least syntactically) allow you to assign actions to an arbitrary subset of an infinity of symbols 23:47:52 in terms of esolangs https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag effectively does 23:47:58 err, wrong one 23:48:03 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fusion_Tag 23:48:07 I have too many tag system variants 23:48:57 or, well, I'm not sure it's /possible/ to have too many tag system variants 23:48:59 but I have a lot 23:55:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:55:45 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 23:58:34 Cloudgoat Ranger (Lorwyn, english; I have 5 total of it, 3 english and 2 simplified chinese; I like it, only two really goes in a deck but multiple white decks can fit them) and Daunting Defender (Onslaught, english; I have 4 but never use them) 23:58:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:58:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:58:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:58:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 2018-12-07: 00:00:05 Does anyone want to bet how many more cards I'll recover? 00:00:16 I think I still have some missing. 00:10:41 No cards. And I think I opened and lifted it up enough that I would have found any cards. 00:10:51 There's some more dust left down there, that I admit 00:10:55 Oh well. 00:12:46 Well, I can't complain either way. 00:12:53 It's not like I expected to find treasure under it. 00:14:29 This could be an un-card. A sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may put any number of Magic cards found there into your hand." 00:15:09 No wait, that doesn't work. It would break the rule that you can't put cards you don't own to your hand. 00:16:01 Make it a sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may cast up to two cards found there without paying their mana costs." 00:19:09 Or should it be white and be called "Spring bed cleaning"? 00:19:17 s/be white/be green/ 00:19:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:19:28 I think it fits better in white 00:19:35 Dunno. 00:20:12 I guess it could be given some green flavor by mentioning recycling and scavenging animals. 00:21:46 Like, it's about some worms that come after the jackals eat all they could from the caracass the lions left over. 00:28:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:20 -!- tromp has joined. 00:41:57 -!- imode has joined. 00:42:11 Or it can be red. The flavor is that a goblin goes into a dungeon and wakes up sleeping creatures. The art shows him just having come out of the dungeon, running away, behind it a bear, and behind it a huge dragon with its neck poking out from a standard 5 foot dungeon entrace. 00:42:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:42:27 But I think the green version fits the effect better. 00:43:40 Called something like "Urban Scavanging" and cost {1G}. 00:45:06 The red version would have to put up to two creatures into play with haste. 00:50:10 And the red version would cost {2R}, the green version {1G}. I think I prefer the green one. 00:50:20 If the red one is done, it has to have some other effect. 00:50:28 Not connected with under the bed. 00:58:43 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:32:28 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:24:27 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:43:20 -!- Melvar has joined. 02:48:26 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:55:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:12:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:33:21 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:33:52 -!- heroux has joined. 06:52:55 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:13:23 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:20:18 Oh man, http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/math-self-reference/index.html 07:20:23 This is much better than the other one. 07:23:27 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 07:49:32 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 07:52:30 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:54:01 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 08:06:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:12:12 -!- xkapastel has joined. 08:23:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:40:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:41:11 -!- tromp has joined. 09:06:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:29:28 -!- j-bot has joined. 09:52:13 -!- aloril_ has changed nick to aloril. 09:56:44 -!- moei has joined. 10:32:52 -!- Essadon has joined. 11:52:57 -!- Melvar has joined. 11:58:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:00:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:00:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 12:00:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:18:25 [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58610&oldid=58609 * Salpynx * (+26) pseudonatural category 12:28:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:29:26 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:32:54 -!- sprocklem has joined. 12:49:09 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58611&oldid=58266 * Salpynx * (+262) /* Examples */ Truth-machine 12:54:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:09:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:00:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:17:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:35:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 16:00:45 -!- sleepnap has joined. 17:33:01 -!- moony2 has joined. 17:39:46 Making JIT actually performant is annoying 17:40:32 and x86-64 *really* doesn't map very well to a 64 (2 zero registers) architecture (FP and GPR combined) 17:41:37 I'm also curious how much work would need to be done to get Linux running on the MC88100 17:42:19 probably a fair bit, but not too much, as it shares similar features to RISC-V/MIPS in several places. 17:44:54 also, my laptop *really* sucks. I may want to delay development of the emulator until i get my new desktop due to the fact my laptop probably couldn't pull 100MIPS even if i tried 18:02:55 -!- moony2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:15:47 `? politics 18:15:48 Politics: See lies. 18:15:54 `? lies 18:15:55 Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups. 18:16:06 hmm 18:17:27 . o O ( politics is where visions go to die ) 18:56:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:30:37 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:48:17 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:50:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:53:35 zzo38: in M:tG, I mentioned that Gatherer doesn't mention which cards transform to which in the list view, only in the individual card view. 19:53:49 zzo38: but it gets worse. the list view also doesn't tell the color indicators. 19:57:56 zzo38: hmm, I could download the lists in "Checklist" view. that at least shows the color. 19:58:50 zzo38: hmm, even stranger than that 19:59:08 zzo38: it lists the color of the card and the color of the back face concatenated together 19:59:33 crazy 20:00:06 no 20:00:08 not even quite that 20:00:18 I don't understand why, but it lists Evermind as "Blue/Blue" 20:01:03 I think it shows the color and the color indicator together 20:02:49 [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58612&oldid=58170 * Gamer * (-40) /* Hello World! */ 20:02:55 [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58613&oldid=58612 * Gamer * (+30) /* Hello, World! */ 20:09:19 But I think I'll download the checklists as well as the standard view lists 20:09:38 (seriously, they call it "Standard") 20:10:12 [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58614&oldid=58613 * Gamer * (+4095) /* Implementation (Python) */ 20:10:32 (they should rename the "Checklist" view to "Counter" view.) 20:11:04 [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58615&oldid=58614 * Gamer * (-50) /* Implementation (Python) */ 20:15:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:20:44 [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58616&oldid=58615 * Gamer * (-744) /* Implementation (Python) */ 20:21:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:27:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:27:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:28:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:28:52 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58617&oldid=57797 * Gamer * (+5924) 20:29:35 [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58618&oldid=58617 * Gamer * (-2) 20:29:53 [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58619&oldid=58618 * Gamer * (+0) 20:37:03 [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58620&oldid=58188 * Gamer * (-248) /* Commands */ 20:37:14 [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58621&oldid=58620 * Gamer * (+0) /* Commands */ 20:38:06 [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58622&oldid=58621 * Gamer * (+4) /* Computational class */ 20:40:33 [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58623&oldid=58622 * Gamer * (-56) /* See Also */ 20:48:13 [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58624&oldid=58553 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */ 21:00:38 [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58625&oldid=58562 * Ais523 * (-16) Undo revision 58562 by [[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]): we probably don't need a warning for that? 21:01:02 [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58626&oldid=58560 * Ais523 * (-16) undo: we probably don't need a warning for that? 21:01:37 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Dead memes]]": primarily used to attack other people's articles 21:43:34 . o O ( i see dead memes ) 21:48:32 oerjan: all your base are belong to us 21:48:42 * int-e is feeling helpful 21:50:42 thx tdh 21:50:45 ``` for k in 0 1; do wisdom; done 21:50:45 ​functor//Functors are morphisms in the category of small categories. \ portmanteau//«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”. 21:50:48 ``` for k in 0 1; do quote; done 21:50:48 1091) If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them. bind them to what To jail. \ 526) Dear god stop staring at me. no never monqy is always staring at everyone. it takes many eyes to do this but I manage He is an inspiration to us all. 21:55:26 `? mꙮnqy 21:55:26 mꙮnqy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:55:56 `learn mꙮnqy is watching you. 21:55:58 Learned 'mꙮnqy': mꙮnqy is watching you. 21:59:54 `icode ꙮ 21:59:55 ​[U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O] 22:00:55 ...that was obvious really. 22:04:17 I thought so, iot's basically the channel mascot. 22:05:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:05:41 zzo38: hi 22:06:01 `grwp mascot 22:06:05 fungot:fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 22:06:06 Hello 22:06:14 zzo38: see logs 22:06:18 Ah, fungot. Fair enough. 22:06:18 int-e: sounds like you need to bind a whole bunch of webcams here. 22:06:20 OK I will look 22:07:01 fungot: uhm, are you trying to film yourself Matrix effect style? 22:07:01 int-e: and with 2 pheromones, you have 22:08:31 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:13:25 my subpixel antialiaser seems to really struggle with multiocular o 22:13:45 different multiocular os can look different from each other 22:20:01 beware those squinting eyes 22:22:21 b_jonas: I read it. You wrote something about Gatherer. I do not know how to deal with this 22:22:22 i think fungot wants multiocular capabilities 22:22:22 oerjan: mov fnord add fnord mov ( fnord, list-string is an identifier?) but not the same as 22:22:34 zzo38: I'm dealing with it 22:24:27 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:26:14 OK 22:47:35 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 22:48:21 -!- Lymia has joined. 22:56:44 fungot: you may be on to something 22:56:45 int-e: does oklotalk-- have runtime errors??? any posix system should have at least been polite about it since the course is very good ( yet) fully match what i want 22:57:15 `? oklotalk 22:57:16 oklotalk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:57:20 `quote oklotalk 22:57:21 No output. 22:57:33 how did that end up in fungot's vocabulary then? 22:57:33 int-e: what did alan kay say? " fnord, 22:57:48 @metar lowi 22:57:49 LOWI 072250Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 -SHRA FEW038 BKN048 06/05 Q1008 23:02:07 fungot: alan turing? 23:02:07 b_jonas: but i'm sure there are more than one char lookahead to parse intercal's array syntax in general 23:02:20 that's a good one 23:02:46 it might be verbatim, or close to it 23:02:54 INTERCAL's array syntax does indeed require more than one char lookahead 23:03:04 (and very few other things in the language do) 23:03:08 (possibly nothing else) 23:05:02 fungot: how do you parse statements starting with FORI=1 in fortran? 23:05:03 b_jonas: nick in that case, first try to see if a.b.c.d is in a.b.c.d/ n 23:05:20 yeah, so just backtrack, try a for statement first, then a let statement 23:05:22 ^style 23:05:22 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 23:07:06 fungot: and how do you parse R = AX OR B in BASIC? 23:07:06 b_jonas: don't let large venomous spiders numb your limbs and suck out your fnord internal organs while you sleep. 23:07:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:07:34 fungot: don't worry, I'm not in Australia 23:07:34 b_jonas: lol that's true too. i need some delay stuff working" is a separate specialization from math recommended it. if you 23:07:48 Every major's terrible 23:28:31 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:31:27 Hello! thought I should finally join here and say hi. I'm spending far too much time on the wiki and working on esolangs in isolation, so thought it might be good to get into some discussions to direct what I work on next 23:31:57 OK. Do you have some idea though? 23:34:02 I am working on multiple ideas at the moment, but most actively on an Autopsy (recent and interesting turing-tarpit) interpreter in my own language ΙΧΘΥΣ / ixqus to hopefully prove it is Turing complete and figure out how I can implement arbitrary conditionals, which are quite challenging in ixqus 23:38:08 I have also started on a completely ridiculous brainfuck on blockchain idea that uses bitcoin wallets (practically on the testnet) as cell storage that would be good to get feedback on. I'm surprised there aren't already esolangs that try to use blockchain gimmicks. I though overused brainfuck and overused blockchain concepts would be a nice match for a technically challenging joke language. 23:40:08 I've made a little proof of concept bitcoin explorer bf app, and have already found even test coins get auto-swiped from low numbered / obvious wallets on the testnet, which makes it hard to test. I call them 'auto-decrement' bots. The idea of a distributed and publically shared memory space was part of the concept though 23:44:37 I guess the main point of feedback I'm after is, do I have some sort of moral responsibility to not use public blockchains to write many copies of 'Hello, World!' . I know I could implement this, but _should_ I :) Would it be sufficient to write up the concept on the wiki.. I'm calling the idea B*chainfuck (shortened to bcf) 23:49:03 I keep getting torn between sensible challenges (like Autospy), and complex jokes, which I guess is why I have rapidly become quite obsessed with esolangs. 23:49:27 salpynx: I don't think you have such a moral responsibility. Bitcoin is a chaotic aligned network, the whole point is that it should have self-enforcing rules. 23:49:56 If you technically can do something like that with bitcoin, then I don't think it's against the moral spirit of bitcoin to do it. 23:54:03 I hate brainfuck though, exactly because it's overused and it sucks. 23:54:10 Also, if anyone tried to use the concept on the real bitcoin network they would loose real money, because many/most of the wallet keys are publicly known, but I hope that would be obvious to anyone who could set up the tool. 23:54:53 :) combining it with blockchain was a big part of the joke, twice the groan factor 23:55:17 salpynx: make sure you use a GPU implementation though, for the overuse 23:56:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:58:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:59:02 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:59:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 23:59:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 2018-12-08: 00:06:45 hi salpynx 00:07:35 also, I think many of us are interested in a mix of sensible challenges and complex jokes 00:07:52 brainfuck-on-blockchain is an interesting idea, although it may have been comprehensively outesotericised by Ethereum 00:08:09 yeah, sensible challenges with complex jokes are nice 00:08:14 perhaps it would be possible to try it on an altcoin nobody cares about? there are a huge number of them, after all 00:08:36 some of those vaporware projects that never get made are mixes of sensible challenges with complex jokes I guess 00:09:36 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 00:11:15 I guess my esolang research has skewed towards the sensible for a while 00:11:31 but then, I'm a major contributor to things like C-INTERCAL, which is close to the pinnacle of the "complex joke" end of the scale 00:11:40 yeah 00:13:47 -!- diginet_ has joined. 00:17:29 ais523: you could call the DOS nethack TAS a good mix of serious and a complex joke I guess 00:17:59 whereas ayacc and aimake are on the serious side, more so than esolangs in general 00:18:01 -!- fungot` has joined. 00:18:28 -!- diginet has quit (Quit: diginet has quit!). 00:18:29 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:18:29 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:18:29 -!- aloril_ has joined. 00:18:30 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 00:19:19 hmm, I wanted to look up if there's a nethack4 bug ticket about how in certain polymorph (and maybe also as an orc character) you should eat apples whole on unix 00:20:45 b_jonas: if it helps, I've seriously threatened to implement a brainfuck backend for ayacc 00:21:00 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:21:20 bye clog? 00:21:21 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:21:27 oh, netsplit is coming 00:21:27 ais523: Who do you threaten? Is it a threat? 00:21:50 zzo38: it's a threat in that some people might see such an implementation as undesirable, but it's not a threat aimed at anyone in particular 00:22:44 O, OK. I think that if it is a separate file than the other backend then I do not have a problem with it 00:23:23 well, all of ayacc is one file to make it easier to distribute, but it would have a separate section in the part of the file that defines backends 00:23:55 Yes, that can work too, I suppose. Use conditional compilation if someone complains 00:25:00 -!- Vorpal has joined. 00:25:25 ais523: if you implement it, will you also put an open source license declaration in ayacc? 00:25:30 because then it will be worth 00:25:52 I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue 00:26:25 b_jonas: I will probably make ayacc GPLv3 at some point 00:26:26 if it isn't already 00:26:28 I would like some frontend transformations, as well as a stackless C/C++ backend. 00:26:48 ais523: it is distributable under some such licence, but there's no declaration 00:26:58 ais523: there's a declaration somewhere in the #esoteric logs 00:27:04 ah, OK 00:27:14 but not in the source code itself (unless you snuck it in recently) 00:27:18 the basic problem is that ayacc is so close to my day job it might be legally unwise for me to work on it at the moment 00:27:27 ais523: yes, exactly 00:27:31 although my day job's diverged a bit since 00:27:40 which is why the bf backend is a good sigh 00:27:51 if you can work on the bf backend, then you can probably also work on the license declaration 00:28:07 Yes, you should add properly the valid open-source/free-software license, whether GPLv3 or public domain or something else. 00:29:25 I think there's no ticket for how any polyform, even a gelcube, will eat apples and pears without cores. 00:30:09 b_jonas: I'm not working on the BF backend because of this 00:30:11 it's probably the main reason? 00:30:27 I'm thinking about it, though; semantic actions are hard 00:30:42 perhaps we should restrict it to bignum BF and make the semantic actions into numbers 00:30:46 err, semantic /values/ into numbers 00:34:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:39:02 Thanks for the ideas. I thought about another altcoin, but then that'd be a lot of learning I'd have to do that would be less generally applicable, anything I learn about bitcoin protocols is more likely to be useful to me or others. Bitcoin has the advantage that there are a lot of exiting libraries to piggyback form or reverse engineer as well, so I don't have to implement everything and can focus on a few jokes. 00:40:03 The GPU idea is good, I don't remotely need to use it for the simple operations I'm aiming for, but it'd be fun to somehow use it for a trivial calculation, just to say it's being used 00:41:32 salpynx: yes, nor do you need to use brainfuck or blockchains for the simple operations you're aiming for 00:41:44 `hello 00:41:45 hello, world 00:41:58 ^ proof of concept: hello world, without using bitcoin or blockchains or GPU 00:42:36 it does run on HackEso through IRC though, so in that sense it is overcomplicated. I could just run hello world locally. 00:44:45 b_jonas: currently I'm trying to write a The Waterfall Model interpreter that's has a sufficiently powerful optimiser that it can run a hello world in a reasonable length of t ime 00:45:20 ais523: hmm, how does that generate output? 00:45:34 there's an extension where you can take a useless counter and add specific values to it 00:46:08 I wrote the extension recently because being able to produce output makes it easier to reason about what a program is doing (also makes the language more usable on PPCG) 00:46:10 https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model#Output_extension 00:46:16 but it's optional and not part of the "core" language 00:52:56 Do you know about mediaeval barber shop prices? Part of this http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+17 has a price list does it looks like OK? 00:56:10 no clue. I've never been to a mediaeval barber. 01:00:00 a medieval barber would probably be more expensive nowadays than they would have been in medieval times 01:02:18 Yes, but I mean in medieval times rather than now 01:09:40 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:47:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:00:19 -!- imode has joined. 02:18:45 -!- clog has joined. 02:31:54 zz038: Late medieval prices for a barber surgeon (full healing rather than the smaller things): https://books.google.com/books?id=3TuNOcTEXigC&pg=PA113 The battle healing on your list seems very good value! 02:38:20 Do you have the one without Google Books? 02:42:02 https://archive.org/details/dailylifeinchauc00forg it needs to be "borrowed" though 02:43:27 Do you just have a plain text version of the price list? 02:43:35 (Retype it if you have to) 02:43:38 Also https://www.jstor.org/stable/24620701 looks like a relevant paper which also uses John Ardene as an original source, from JSTOR, but I can't find a directly accessible full copy 02:44:10 I do not need a full copy of the book 02:48:33 Most of the professional practitioners were in London, In other large towns there might be a few physicians and surgeons, but medicine was primarily in the hands of the barber-surgeons and barber-tonsors. The countryside was served only by part-time healers, unless a patient was wealthy enough to import the services of a professional. 02:48:46 Treatment by a highly skilled practitioner could be very expensive: Arderne recommended a fee of 100 marks for a great person, £40 for lesser people, and £5 as a minimum. In principle, medical practitioners were supposed to treat the poor free of charge, but it is unlikely that they devoted much of their valuable time to such charity. 02:49:11 2nd sentence is about all that is relevant for full healing 02:51:18 Five pounds is a lot more than I put. I suppose many poor people are unlikely to be able to read the price list anyways 02:58:32 I changed the price for "healing wounds from battle" now it is increased to five pounds. I do not remember exactly what prices the GM said, but I think it wasn't higher than that. Once the GM reads it, if he remember what he said, and also once he reads the footnote I added, then he might tell me to change it (he has the ability to change it by himself, but he doesn't use that, and I do instead). 03:03:49 20s for an application of Mercury ointment for treating scabies from the JSOR paper (16 pages), not many other specifics though. A lot about treating paupers for free and from others accepting "presents of fowls and ducks" 03:21:36 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:56:18 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: sprocklem). 04:00:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:10:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:37:08 -!- derpy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:38:34 -!- derpy has joined. 05:54:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:57:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:03:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:21:10 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:22:46 -!- GeekDude has joined. 06:42:55 For HTTP ranges, in addition to "bytes", we can also have "lines", "items", and "unixtime" ranges. The syntax is same like byte ranges but the name is difference. 06:58:48 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:22:13 -!- xkapastel has joined. 09:01:38 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:08:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:08:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:42:18 moin moerjan 09:42:38 * Taneb hellio 09:43:25 fungot`: be reasonable 09:43:26 int-e: figured that just now?! i've always used ghost for kicking my own fnord function. it accepts three arguments: a cell, fnord 09:43:41 close enough. 10:00:00 moint-e 10:00:28 fungot`: i think you left out an argument 10:00:28 oerjan: they sure have weird bodies burned and fnord sacrificed to some deities like dijkstra or so. 10:01:09 oerjan: I thought it was just missing a comma after "a". 10:01:19 a, ha 10:01:37 hineb 10:26:25 `addquote I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue 10:26:27 1330) I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue 10:49:46 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:26:34 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58627 * Plokmijnuhby * (+681) Created page with "I'm trying to write a compiler, and I've noticed some problems. In commands like: The proof for the element of the name x and value 2 being in set P has been proven weak. the..." 11:28:28 `? ray 11:28:29 ray? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:29:23 Raytracing should be a subfield of oceanic biology. 11:31:25 "marine" is the right adjective. 11:57:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:00:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:00:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 12:00:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:08:12 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:19:55 Hmm, so artifact elven swords are supposed to glow _blue_ when orcs are nearby? I assumed they'd glow yellow or orange or something. 12:21:20 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:32:30 blue is the coolest glow :) 12:33:39 fun. 'Both Obi-Wan and Anakin's were blue; Vader's was red. Those colors remained the standard until "Return of the Jedi," when Lucas had the color of Luke's new lightsaber blade changed to green so that it would stand out better against the blue sky of Tatooine.' 12:47:25 salpynx: interesting. I wonder if that's real full healing, or just "full healing" up to 300 or 500 HP 13:08:00 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58628&oldid=58619 * Gamer * (+210) 13:08:13 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58629&oldid=58628 * Gamer * (+15) 13:08:55 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58630&oldid=58629 * Gamer * (+13) /* Madbrain (Python) */ 13:12:50 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58631&oldid=58630 * Gamer * (-202) 13:13:21 [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58632&oldid=58631 * Gamer * (+30) 13:13:53 [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58633&oldid=58610 * Gamer * (+10) /* Flow Control Commands */ 13:24:39 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:15:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:16:19 -!- tromp has joined. 14:21:49 -!- salpynx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:27:12 `? zelda 14:27:13 zelda? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:27:16 `? link 14:27:17 link? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:38:02 `? ganon 14:38:06 ganon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:40:19 ``` head wisdom/ga*o | sport 14:40:20 1/2:==> wisdom/gaspacho <== \ You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspasjo <== \ Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspatsjo <== \ gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaszpacho <== \ gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gazpacho <== \ 14:40:21 ` n 14:40:21 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 14:40:24 `n 14:40:24 2/2:You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gazspaczo <== \ gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz 14:41:03 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:54:32 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html 14:54:33 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html: b_jonas 14:58:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:58:44 -!- tromp has joined. 15:18:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:20:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:20:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:20:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:37:14 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:07:44 -!- imode has joined. 17:33:56 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:38:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:43:15 -!- joast has joined. 17:47:29 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:43:49 -!- FreeFull has quit. 19:16:20 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:18:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:33:19 -!- hexfive has joined. 19:48:07 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:10:14 -!- FreeFull has quit. 20:11:59 Have you ever play mahjong and have heaven? That is highly unlikely; I never have done. 20:14:26 I wrote rules of Pokemon mahjong: https://arin.ga/ASWzV9 Please read it see if you think it is good, and whatever suggestions/questions/complaints about it? 20:14:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:00:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:02:50 Do you like this Pokemon mahjong I wrote now? Is there anything I missed, perhaps? Is there any mistake? 21:37:25 [[Unfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58634&oldid=57352 * Zseri * (+1) correct file extension 21:48:38 that looks cool & fun, zzo38. also arin.ga is neat. I might try and host a clone 21:56:15 zzo38: ouch. what's the easy way to turn off syntax coloring for that arin.ga page? 21:56:31 ah, there's a "raw" link 22:00:43 b_jonas: Yes, you can use the "raw" link. You can also use curl to download it; you get plain text in that case too. 22:01:52 paul2520: They have the source code on GitHub if you want to make a copy. 22:05:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:56:56 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:59:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:40:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:11 -!- tromp has joined. 23:44:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 2018-12-09: 00:49:19 Probably to understand the rules I wrote, is needing to know both Pokemon game and mahjong game. 01:05:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:57:27 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:13:21 `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/ 02:13:22 ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/: b_jonas 02:14:07 -!- nodist has joined. 02:56:54 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:11:24 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:19:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:20:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:20:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:20:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:22:57 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Sleep). 04:27:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Marcsine * New user account 04:56:35 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58635&oldid=58593 * Marcsine * (+248) Hello, world! 05:04:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:05:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:12:01 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:19:20 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 08:04:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:51 -!- tromp has joined. 08:06:54 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58636&oldid=58627 * Salpynx * (+622) suggest new command 08:21:17 -!- grumble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:22:29 -!- grumble has joined. 08:40:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:53:27 -!- xkapastel has joined. 09:55:00 could we cook things faster if the deep fryers were in a room filled with argon or is the somke point of oil independent of the ambient atmosphere? 09:55:28 Is the smoke point of oil the limiting factor for deep frying? 09:57:13 shachaf: my research indicates that they have to keep below the point where the oil starts breaking down 09:57:51 however wikipedia is unclear on whether this process is internal or a reaction between the oil and the air 10:00:29 further questions: would an oven filled with argon instead of air allow one to bake cookies faster without burning them 10:03:55 * oerjan points to cooking.stackexchange.com 10:04:06 i,i stacking.cookexchange.com 10:04:22 would an argon-filled kitchen allow the use of highly flammable liquids to cook in 10:04:32 `? oren 10:04:34 oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. 10:06:49 if only boily were here i'm sure he'd know. 10:07:18 `quote 10:07:18 `quote 10:07:18 `quote 10:07:18 483) I keep asking random people for "friendship " and it's crippling 10:07:19 `quote 10:07:19 `quote 10:07:19 1196) I am in room number 404. I keep not finding it and walking past the door. 10:07:20 532) lol :( 10:07:20 821) Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D [...] Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.” 10:07:20 176) The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code. 10:10:20 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 10:11:06 `learn_append oren To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science. 10:11:08 Learned 'oren': oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science. 10:11:41 it's the logical explanation that popped into my mind, so it must be true. 10:11:45 `5 w 10:11:47 1/2:redundancy//Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it. \ morphology//Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it. \ bofh//A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP. \ west midlands//Nobody knows anything about the West Midlands, and it has claimed the lives of at least two former regulars in this channel who tried to investigate so far. \ resolution// 10:11:54 `n 10:11:54 2/2:As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other. 10:13:03 `cwlprits morphology 10:13:05 oerjän 10:13:21 `cwlprits bofh 10:13:22 ​\oren̈\ 10:13:25 `slwd s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/ 10:13:26 usage: sled file//script 10:14:16 `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/ 10:14:18 oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science. 10:14:24 oops 10:14:27 `revert 10:14:28 Done. 10:14:41 `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping/ 10:14:42 oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science. 10:15:33 `? muphry 10:15:34 muphry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:15:43 `wisdom muphry 10:15:44 ​muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment. 11:02:04 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:11:08 -!- salpynx has joined. 11:15:06 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58637&oldid=58636 * Plokmijnuhby * (+387) Rearrangement of my comment 11:16:40 question for the experts: Is there a meaningful difference in proving Turing completeness between (1) figuring out a transpiler (on paper or in a higher level language) between a known TC language and the target, and (2) creating an functional interpreter for the known TC language in the target? Is (1) sufficient for a TC proof? 11:17:37 I have figured out an algorithm for converting Waterfall Model code into ixqus (which definitely works for the smallish examples I have tried), but (2) is going to be substantially more work, and I'm worried something about the target (ixqus) will make it impossible to do properly, so a higher level language will always be required to do the transpiling. That would mean the target is not really TC, but only looks like it under some 11:17:56 Alternatively, if (1) _is_ sufficient, then (2) must be possible, but I won't have to actually do it :) 11:20:59 (1) is sufficient. 11:22:46 Intuitively (there are some technical obstacles but the basic ideas are sound), (1) gives you (2) (take a self-interpreter for the source language and translate it to the target language), and (2) gives you an easy approach to (1) (take the source program and combine it with the interpreter into a single program that runs it) 11:23:49 So apparently there's no better bound than PSPACE for the question "which of two sequences of naturals has the larger sum-of-square-roots?" 11:24:26 excellent, that is what I was hoping! It feels like it should have been obvious, but I was worried that there would be some technicality that somehow enabled one without the other. 11:29:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:31:09 Even though Waterfall Model is pretty simple, getting any sort of _usable_ conditional happening in the target was quite challenging, though I think I have a good understanding now of the issues. I got stuck trying to implement an Autopsy interpreter, but hopefully have learned enough to continue. For some reason I think an Autopsy interpreter will be easier than a Waterfall Model one, even though the Wafterfall transpiler was more 11:32:10 shachaf: hmm I've found http://cs.smith.edu/~jorourke/TOPP/P33.html and it's not at all obvious to me why it would be in PSPACE. 11:32:23 I guess interpreters are easier when the language syntax is closer, but Waterfall Model has nice clean logic regardless of target syntax, which enables transpiling 11:33:27 (since that suggests that in the worst case you need to compute exponentially many bits of the results) 11:43:01 oren: I don't see how that's relevant. doesn't a good deep fryer already let you heat the oil to a high enough temperature that higher would be worse on the food itself? 11:45:21 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:47:06 http://ftp.cs.rutgers.edu/pub/allender/slp.pdf talks about it 11:54:02 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58638&oldid=58637 * Plokmijnuhby * (+622) /* Element removal */ 11:55:25 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58639&oldid=58638 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) /* Element removal */ 11:58:09 int-e: thanks for the answer. I'd always thought self-interpreters were an interesting curiosity, made for their own sake, but now I see the utility combined with translation. You can code the interpreter in whatever language seems easiest, then convert 12:29:48 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58640&oldid=58611 * Salpynx * (+159) Turing Complete via the Waterfall Model 12:35:47 -!- Essadon has joined. 12:44:47 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Page closed). 13:12:44 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:40:31 when's the next o? 14:02:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:16:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:19:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:19:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:19:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:19:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:59:31 See? They're copying themselves and each other again. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cryptography is essentially the same as https://www.xkcd.com/538/ 16:09:24 well, it is common wisdom... or at least ought to be 17:23:14 ``` allquotes | tail -n2 17:23:15 1329) Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people 😥 idk if you're likely to have much luck there this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people \ 1330) I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue 17:24:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:24:52 Do you have any more ideas about new yaku or other rules for pokemon mahjong game? 17:31:14 wow, there's an assembler syntax for C64 where the pseudo-instruction that inserts raw data is called "!BYTE" with an exclamation mark 17:31:22 O, I didn't know that 17:31:23 who'd use an exclamation mark for that? 17:31:49 Whoever wrote that program, I suppose. 17:31:53 I don't even understand why AT&T syntax uses dots. why do you need a prefix at all, when these are among the most common pseudo-instruction 17:32:48 and I sort of wish they hadn't, because most of their assembler syntax for x86_32 and x86_64 is actually saner than the intel syntax 17:33:17 seriously, intel's argument syntax is messed up 17:33:34 I think they want to make it clear when reading the asm which instructions are direct processor instructions and which are instructions to the assembler 17:34:53 Maybe that is why 17:35:31 incidentally, I'd like to point at http://yasm.tortall.net/ as what seems like a sane modern assembler and https://www.agner.org/optimize/ as a sane disassembler for the x86_64 17:35:44 um, https://www.agner.org/optimize/#objconv for the latter 17:51:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:57:52 b_jonas: istr at least one of munroe and weinersmith has explicitly stated e doesn't check whether the other guy (or possibly anyone) has made a joke before 17:58:07 (although the istr was hearsay) 17:59:26 * oerjan stopped reading smbc a while ago because it seemed to be just bringing up depressing ideas. 18:08:31 -!- imode has joined. 18:52:54 wow. I have three consecutive quotes at the quote file starting from 1326 18:53:40 `quote 1326 18:53:41 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter 18:53:46 `quote 1327 18:53:47 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 18:53:51 `quote 1328 18:53:51 1328) ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. [...] 18:55:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: food). 19:08:34 `` doag quotes | grep symmetry 19:08:36 11610:2018-08-22 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 19:35:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:01:57 -!- Isabel2 has joined. 20:10:34 -!- Isabel2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:26:33 -!- Isabel1 has joined. 20:35:28 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:39:07 -!- Isabel1 has left. 20:42:38 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:49:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:59:52 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 21:04:03 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 21:28:29 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58641&oldid=58639 * Salpynx * (+2100) trying to figure out valid sets 21:43:06 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58642&oldid=58641 * Salpynx * (+643) Set == key:value swapped dict? 21:49:25 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58643&oldid=58642 * Salpynx * (+469) /* Turing completeness */ 22:07:15 [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58644&oldid=58019 * BradensEsolangs * (-46) 22:07:40 [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58645&oldid=54906 * BradensEsolangs * (+1) Prefer it here 22:12:17 [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58646&oldid=58645 * BradensEsolangs * (+1) 22:16:21 oh! Salpynx is back 22:16:52 I think we gained a very useful contributor to esolangs with them 22:17:00 I hope they stick 22:22:37 -!- Lavos has joined. 22:24:40 Yes 22:32:02 -!- Lavos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:55:32 ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead 22:55:41 ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/fantasy.rules.committee 23:02:09 Make the file available with gopher then; Veronica-2 still works, even if Archie doesn't 23:06:11 (There are also other problems with FTP; other protocols are often better, either HTTP, Plan9, Gopher, TFTP, or SSH, according to what is needed) 23:12:48 plan9 protocol? is that the one with the white bunny? let me look that up 23:13:22 Yes, I think so 23:14:46 yeah, though the bunny has small ears, unlike what I remembered 23:19:13 nice as a logo, but I don't think it adapts well to a plushie, and that's something of a drawback when it comes to software mascots 23:20:55 Are you sure does it need to? 23:22:05 I suppose it might help to earn money if you can sell plushies, maybe 23:24:16 Which software projects do, anyways? 23:37:10 no, the software project doesn't directly gain money from that 23:38:40 O OK, although I am not sure why they would need to make it adapts well to a plushie then (unless perhaps they expect other people will want to do), but not that there is anything wrong to make adapts to plushies 23:39:52 they probably don't need to, yes. 23:52:39 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 23:55:35 [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58647&oldid=58643 * Salpynx * (+3) /* Element removal */ 2018-12-10: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:15:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:03 -!- tromp has joined. 00:17:30 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:34:01 -!- imode has joined. 00:39:01 i have a thing which has several possible "states" 00:39:26 these states are finite and not even that many 00:39:34 66bits are enough to encode all of them 00:39:35 but 00:39:51 state 1 feels less random than state 138924533525526 00:40:34 how do i quantify this randomness? 00:42:58 one method is by seeing how likely each state is 00:43:12 they're all equally likely 00:43:29 then I don't see any reason why state 1 would be less random than state 138924533525526 00:43:42 the only reason we perceive 1 as being less random is that's a more commonly used number in general 00:43:42 state 0 is special and we like it a lot for some reason 00:44:25 an easy way to measure this thing would be to take the distance of each state from state 0 00:44:27 but 00:44:46 there's some states that are as far as possible from state 0, which are not very random at all 00:45:43 i.e. you can describe those states in a very compact way 00:45:52 here's the start of a list of all integers, ordered by how frequently they appear in the Google Books corpus: 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 8 7 9 20 12 15 11 14 0 30 13 16 18 25 17 19 24 100 21 22 50 23 40 28 26 27 29 31 60 00:46:09 err, I'm not sure if negative integers are included, the - might be parsed as a punctuation mark 00:46:19 so perhaps it's the start of a list of all /nonnegative/ integers with that ordering 00:46:19 ok... 00:46:45 ais523: do you know how to solve a rubik's cube? 00:46:50 hmm, I guess if you're treating state 0 as special, then the specialness of other states would be based on how they related to state 0 00:46:59 izabera: I know one algorithm for it, and the general principles behind many others 00:47:10 yes that's correct, the specialness is in relation to state 0 00:47:31 if this is about a Rubik's Cube, I recommend reading up on the Thistlethwaite algorithm, it seems relevant here 00:47:40 i know that 00:47:54 in particular, it categorises states by what /sort/ of moves are required to go between them and state 0 00:47:57 i know 00:48:19 but still i don't think it's a very good measure 00:48:45 hmm, this list of integers ordered by frequency cuts off at frequency 40, containing such integers as 19111919 and 16841721 00:48:59 there are 245164 integers that appear at least 40 times in the corpus 00:49:19 oh, 83000000000 too 00:49:34 so there's this state that's called a superflip 00:49:54 meanwhile, 395000000000000 has a full 46 occurrences! 00:49:57 basically all the corners are solved, and all the edges are in the right position but flipped 00:49:57 this is like art in its own way 00:50:12 and by some metrics, it's the furthest you can get from the starting state 00:50:29 yes it takes 20 moves 00:50:38 it's the first case that was proved to require 20 moves 00:50:46 20 moves is the diameter of the graph 00:51:01 can't go farther than that from the solved state 00:51:13 but it's absolutely trivial and totally not random 00:51:38 there are two metrics, in one of them the furthest-known position is apparently unique (as in, the only known position), in the other, there are lots of ties 00:51:54 but both of them have either superflip or a variant of it as one of the furthest-known positions 00:51:55 it's not unique 00:52:00 there's a lot of ties 00:54:19 if it's not unique in half-turn metric, then it must be quarter-turn metric which has the believed-unique maximal-moves pattern 00:54:25 (which IIRC is superflip with some of the centres swaped) 00:54:26 *swapped 00:55:58 https://ruwix.com/pics/rubiks-cube/patterns/six-spots.svg things like this have 0 solved pieces, 0 pieces with the right orientation, and yet are absolutely trivial and they don't feel random 00:56:12 thistlethwaite would vomit by only looking at it 00:57:17 you might want to categorise by symmetries, in that case 00:57:36 patterns like that are easy because their symmetries make it easier to spot a solution 00:57:55 besides, isn't that pattern solvable with only slice moves? that's the exact sort of rule that thistlethwaite-like algorithms are good at picking up on 00:58:30 what 00:58:36 that's like 00:58:38 the first step in the Thistlethwaite algorithm is to orient the corners 00:58:47 do you even know what you're talking about 00:58:53 and the corners in that pattern are clearly correctly oriented, if all in the wrong position 00:59:19 none of them is correctly oriented, and the first step in th is not to orient corners 00:59:51 izabera: the aim in Thistlethwaite, as written, is to get into a position from which you can ban moves on two opposite faces 00:59:55 corner orientation is in 01:00:03 i know 01:00:05 you don't 01:00:20 err, ban quarter-moves on two opposite faces 01:01:01 I'm having trouble remembering what the restrictions are for each of the four phases 01:01:03 you go from to to to to solved 01:01:18 it's the second step that locks the orientation of the corners, right 01:01:27 because whatever face of the corner is on U/D is stuck there 01:02:14 anyway, you can imagine a Thistlethwaite-like algorithm which uses different move sets 01:02:35 e.g. one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves (both quarter-turn and half-turn), but not any individual face moves 01:03:06 the pattern you linked belongs (I think) to that set, which is a notable property of it, even if it doesn't neatly fall into any of the "normal" Thistlethwaite sets 01:15:23 ok i'll correct myself, the six-dots case only has 8 flipped edges 01:16:09 and depending on how you look at it, the first step in th is 4 moves and the second one is 4 moves and the last 2 are skipped 01:16:49 well depending on how you look at it, you get to distribute the same 8 moves over the 4 steps 01:17:03 anyway, even if I have the details wrong (and I probably do), six-spot is the sort of pattern that you'd expect to be solvable with only a subset of the legal moves 01:17:27 currentliy featured question on StackOverflow asks how to do loops in metafont/ancient-APL style https://stackoverflow.com/q/53689001/ 01:17:45 wait, a rubik's cube question? 01:17:56 oh right, it's by izabera 01:17:56 ais523: i don't necessarily think that that is a good way to estimate what i want 01:18:03 b_jonas: that doesn't look featured to me 01:18:28 "66 bits are enough to encode all of them" => hmm, didn't it fit in 65 5bits? 01:19:09 a little less than ~65.23 bits 01:19:15 ais523: => wow, that's an interesting frequency list 01:19:47 yes, I thought it was interesting too 01:20:19 apparently this sequence is not on OEIS yet 01:20:44 (and we'd probably want an up-to-date version of the corpus before adding it, mine's a bit old) 01:20:52 ais523: does that count occurrences with or without multiplicity throughout books? 01:20:59 it's also one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen 01:21:02 b_jonas: with multiplicity 01:21:24 as in, a number that's used once in 40 books and a number that's used 40 times in a single book will both have a frequency of 40 01:22:00 ais523: how many times does 244823040 appear? 01:22:17 ais523: Was your general monad ? operator delimited by function? 01:23:08 shachaf: it needs some definition of what scope it runs over; Rust's definition is "a function, or a block marked 'catch'" which seems reasonable; having it apply to a single block is also reasonable I think 01:23:29 But that makes {}/; not associative, right? 01:23:31 b_jonas: less than 40 01:23:34 this question is because a friend of mine wanted to come up with some position that was considered "hard" in any possible method 01:24:10 shachaf: it's OK for {} to not be associative, I think; they aren't in Rust anyway because of lifetimes 01:24:16 so Rust doesn't care about that 01:24:28 and I'm not sure they inherently need to be associative in other languages either 01:24:31 Right, like C++. 01:24:56 Well, Haskell requires do { do { a; b }; c } = do { a; do { b; c } } 01:25:53 "one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves" => that would be very small and so almost useless 01:25:56 IMO 01:26:08 b_jonas: it's not that small if you allow quarter turns 01:26:26 ais523: sorry, it's not featured. it's hot. 01:27:31 b_jonas: here's a featured challenge on PPCG at the moment: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/105127/fastest-mini-flak-quine 01:27:43 which will end up having to be featured three times, there was a 1100 rep bounty on it 01:27:48 (which takes a while to hand out…) 01:28:30 "one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen" => no way. there are interesting mathematically defined sequences that go to at least tetration sized numbers, perhaps more. most of them are more interesting as sets than as sequences, but those are still often put into OEIS. 01:31:07 yes, but I haven't seen them 01:31:08 ais523: re 1100 rep bounty, I used to think such couldn't be awarded at all, at least by a single user, because SE docs "https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/bounty" say "Additionally, if you offer multiple bounties on the same question, the minimum spend doubles with each subsequent bounty" 01:31:16 the doubling caps at 500 01:31:26 but someone else is awarding the spare 100 to reach a number that isn't divisible by 500 01:31:33 ais523: "seen" in what sense? they wouldn't be listed explicitly on your screen obviously 01:31:41 the definition 01:31:41 ais523: yeah, I know 01:32:00 I guess it's finite and growing 01:32:14 any day, someone could publish a book that contains the fourtieth copy of a brand new number :-D 01:33:07 (and of course, the original source material has to go beyond the things with 40 copies into things with 39 copies, and so on down to 1; it's just that the list I have handy stops there) 01:33:34 ais523: Baez probably knows more about this, but I think there's some small congruance class, one of 6k+1, 6k-1, 4k+1, 4k-1, such that most small primes fall into one, but eventually the complementary class takes over at some very large threshold, and of course around that it switches a lot 01:34:23 b_jonas: I know about that too (4n-1 vs. 4n+1 is the best known) 01:34:28 but it doesn't really define a finite sequence 01:34:44 because it swaps back at some point 01:35:05 it defines a large /number/, but that's different 01:35:12 I guess you could call the digits of that number a sequence 01:36:17 ais523: it probably swaps out at many points, so the set of numbers n such there are more primes less than n in that congruence class would be a set, not just a number 01:36:39 the set of natural numbers, say 01:36:48 uh no 01:36:50 yes, the interesting number is the lowest element of that set, which is still quite large 01:36:51 that's stupid 01:36:58 sorry 01:37:02 I meant my own definition 01:37:16 anyway, yes, that's probably not one of the more interesting large finite sequences 01:38:37 oh, it's not that big, 26833 01:39:41 big enough that it'd take a while to discover without the help of computers, though! 01:44:33 I think there's a related problem where it's much larger 01:45:20 ais523: I think it was a different sequence then 01:45:39 ais523: hmm, but isn't the largest such number much bigger? 01:45:47 it's the largest such number that's really interesting, not the smallest one, 01:46:00 because there can be "random" anomalies around small primes 01:46:40 -!- MDude has joined. 01:47:21 there are infinitely many such numbers, so there isn't a largest 01:49:33 um, the largest number outside that set then 01:50:14 there are infinitely many of those, too 01:53:25 hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_solutions_for_Rubik%27s_Cube says the number of states with the maximal number of turns for the quater-turn metric is not known, but only very few such positions are known. 01:53:46 not surprising, but I don't really pay attention to the quater-turn metric 01:54:03 -!- hexfive has joined. 01:55:46 I was surprised back in 2010 when the 20 move upper bound proof for the face turn metric was announced, on how early it's been found 02:01:23 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:24:21 -!- tng has joined. 02:30:16 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:38:06 [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58648&oldid=33787 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) /* Name */ new section 02:41:07 [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58649&oldid=58648 * Ais523 * (+432) /* Name */ some history 02:43:05 [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58650&oldid=58649 * Ais523 * (+118) OK, so now the spambot's made me visit IMDB to verify the details 03:08:46 -!- tng has quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com). 03:18:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:21:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:57:57 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:00:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 04:02:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 04:05:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 04:24:05 Does any web browser have a "save form" command? 04:28:56 Is there any proposal for a PNG chunk for XPM palettes? 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:06:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:37:40 Now I wrote a specification for using XPM colours in PNG. This allows you to define the preferred mono or grey representation of a colour picture, as well as to do such things as match text colours and background colours of a document. 07:06:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:42:33 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58651&oldid=58001 * Ais523 * (+1186) /* The Waterfall Model */ Hello, world! 07:55:06 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:59:41 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58652&oldid=58558 * Ais523 * (+105) /* External resources */ link Ratiofall 08:11:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:12:02 -!- tromp has joined. 08:59:20 -!- b_jonas has joined. 08:59:46 zzo38: I could be wrong, but I sort of have the impression that graphic designers are very different from us, and they don't want that kind of tool 09:00:00 including the ones that design game graphics 09:00:59 also, not many people use grayscale graphics on displays anymore, it's mostly used in print 09:20:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:21:17 -!- tromp has joined. 09:28:36 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:34:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:06:13 -!- xkapastel has joined. 10:54:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:54:18 -!- tromp has joined. 11:25:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:25:55 -!- tromp has joined. 11:30:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:30:34 -!- tromp has joined. 11:30:52 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 11:31:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:32:30 -!- tromp has joined. 11:46:08 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:46:21 -!- tromp has joined. 11:46:43 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:48:10 ais523: re primes mod 4, let's see in https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0408319 11:49:16 ais523: however, it also says that I was wrong, the sequence is infinite 12:01:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 12:02:54 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:03:20 that article probably has the plots were made by Mathematica, because it uses the Mathematica font 12:17:09 `? nobel 12:17:11 nobel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:17:12 `? noble 12:17:13 noble? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:18:10 slashlearn Nobel//"Nobel" is Norwegian for "noble", a title of honor awarded by kings. 12:18:35 i wonder if there are people who call the nobel price "fields medal of chemistry/physics/..." 12:19:45 I dunno. but there are people who point out that there are at least three awards that are sometimes called the "Nobel prize of mathematics" 12:21:32 great for the mathematitians 12:30:38 I think we should call more things Nobel prizes of their respective categories 12:31:01 Like "The Nobel prize of sheep shearing in Northumberland" 12:33:11 the nobel prize of sports 12:47:36 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:01:20 -!- Melvar has joined. 13:11:01 and the IOCCC judges award the Nobel prize of obfuscated programming 13:13:51 obfuscated C programming 13:14:28 or, really, just the Nobel prize of C programming 13:14:38 * FireFly ducsk 13:14:42 ducks, even 13:18:39 i like the contest to create the largest c++ error message better 13:19:34 how about the http://www.underhanded-c.org/ _ 13:28:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:29:33 myname: https://tgceec.tumblr.com/ ? 13:45:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:13:41 AHAHAHA apparently mailing list web archives aren't the only ones affected by overzelous "email address protection" filters: 14:14:13 "https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/119594" is a vendor's page with specs of a camera they make, and it says "Photo burst: 3/[email protected], 5/[email protected] or 10/[email protected]" 14:14:32 Heh 14:15:50 probably automatically decodes it in client side if you allow javascript or something 14:15:55 I didn't try 15:20:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:22:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:22:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:22:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:27:40 -!- Cale has joined. 15:31:58 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:07:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:34 -!- tromp has joined. 16:22:49 -!- Essadon has joined. 16:37:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:37:32 -!- tromp has joined. 16:47:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:54:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:54:43 -!- tromp has joined. 16:57:03 -!- imode has joined. 17:01:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:01:51 -!- tromp has joined. 17:05:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:16:08 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:16:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:17:32 -!- tromp has joined. 17:34:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:34:33 -!- tromp has joined. 17:47:24 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:50:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:12:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:15 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:32:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:36:45 [[Hurgusburgus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+3687) Created page with "'''Hurgusburgus''' is a programming language by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden]], to be very confusing. ==The basics of Hurgusburgus== Hurgusburgus is based on a [[queue]]. A p..." 18:37:13 [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58654&oldid=58644 * BradensEsolangs * (+43) 18:39:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:45:02 -!- MDude has joined. 18:46:11 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58655&oldid=57519 * BradensEsolangs * (-11) Hmmm, brain is not a swear word 18:47:27 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:51:24 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58656&oldid=58566 * BradensEsolangs * (+19) /* H */ 18:57:57 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baidicoot * New user account 18:58:58 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:06:06 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:08:47 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58657&oldid=58635 * Baidicoot * (+253) /* Introductions */ 19:46:51 [[Butng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+1317) Created page with "== What is Butng? == Butng was originally created by [User:Baidicoot|Baidicoot] as an extension of lambda calculus. However, it has since grown, and, with the help of [User:Go..." 19:59:49 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58659&oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+820) 20:08:25 [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58660&oldid=58536 * BradensEsolangs * (+4) 20:11:29 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58661&oldid=58606 * BradensEsolangs * (+47) /* Implementations */ 20:21:37 [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58662&oldid=58659 * Baidicoot * (+10) /* Placeholder Law */ 20:22:17 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58663&oldid=58662 * Baidicoot * (+14) 20:29:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:42:16 HELO 20:42:25 help me design a language 20:44:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:48:01 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 21:07:56 What language? 21:09:56 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58664&oldid=58663 * Zzo38 * (-14) User links weren't working; the user pages still do not exist yet 21:10:16 something that is the next step above assembler 21:10:33 with a real simple compiler 21:10:45 I'm thinking forth-like 21:11:38 but with functions, stackframes, and "backwards compatibility" with machine code in terms of data/text mixins 21:22:01 mniip: by `"backwards compatibility" with machine code", you mean a well-defined ABI? 21:22:21 or a foreign call interface or both? 21:22:38 possibly a trivial one 21:22:44 inline machine code 21:23:33 ah 21:23:35 ok 21:23:37 so that too 21:24:15 mniip: and what platform/architecture does the compiler compile to? 21:25:35 8086 21:26:21 I am willing to ignore segmentation and consider that everything is bound to the CS segment 21:27:42 Would it be capable of making DOS programs? 21:27:44 mniip: the original 8086? 16 bit mode? 21:27:51 zzo38, COM programs yeah 21:28:18 OK. COM already sets the code and data segments same automatically, so you do not have to do that. 21:28:47 zzo38, what I meant is I don't have to design the language around far pointers and the like 21:28:51 all four of the original 8086 segment registers in fact 21:30:08 which is useful because 8086 instructions implicitly refer to all four in some cases 21:30:25 so if you stick to a single segment, then you never have to add segment overrides 21:36:08 mniip: and what do you want the compiler to run on? 21:36:18 and implemented in? 21:36:29 8086 21:36:30 8086 21:39:05 mniip: there are some small forth native compilers for 8086, colorforth being one of the more infamous ones, you could look at those. 21:39:19 though those are partly implemented in themselves, rather than raw 8086 21:42:44 I wonder if I need keywords 21:44:19 There is possibility to have keywords but that aren't reserved words. 21:45:06 nah I mean symbolic keywords vs alphanumeric keywords 21:45:22 O, OK 21:45:35 "?" vs "if" 21:46:15 Yes, OK, I know now how you mean 21:46:20 mniip: if you have a stropping system, it makes it easier to have keywords 21:46:35 a what system 21:47:03 mniip: like if all keywords start with a particualr symbol 21:47:11 Requiring apostrophes around all keywords 21:47:43 or in fortran, less than is .lt. 21:48:11 (You can also do it other way around, or require a prefix symbol for nonkeywords like LLVM does, or do like SQL does that you can optionally put quotation marks around a name if you want to make it to be treated as not a keyword) 21:49:35 mniip: or, it's not a forth-alike, but you can look at http://www.vttoth.com/CMS/index.php/projects/49 21:49:47 only you'd implement it in 8086 directly, not in itself 21:50:11 it doesn't have inline machine code, only machine code as separate functions, but it wouldn't be hard to add inline machine code with some register use convention 21:51:22 as in, add an emit statement that lets you directly emit bytes of machine code, 16-bit addresses of global variables or functions, and 8-bit address of local variables relative to BP 22:07:54 apparently there's some disagreement in how the libc fscanf function should handle inputs that require more than one byte of lookahead, which comes up in the %g, %x and %i formats. 22:11:28 you mean wrt the file pointer? 22:12:40 mniip: that too, but more whether the partial input is accepted (as in, fscanf fills the variable with the parsed value and continues on with the pattern, as opposed to rejecting the partial input by not modifying the variable and stopping the pattern right there) 22:25:08 [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58665&oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+45) 22:25:44 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58666&oldid=58661 * BradensEsolangs * (+0) /* Hurgusburgus */ Should be a zero, not a space. 22:27:26 [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58667&oldid=58665 * BradensEsolangs * (+5) 22:34:21 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:41:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:42:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:46:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:59:08 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58668&oldid=58655 * Rdebath * (+11) Undo revision 58655 by [[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]] ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]]) (Someone else didn't get the joke.) 23:08:48 -!- tromp has joined. 23:24:34 ok, I think I came up with a specification 23:28:24 scary 23:29:20 :add :1{ @2 @1 + $: } 23:30:23 no wait that doesn't work 23:30:27 :add :0{ @2 @1 + $: } 23:30:29 or 23:30:49 :add :1{ @2 @1 + $=0 $: } 23:31:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:29 -!- tromp has joined. 23:33:10 mniip: are you inventing a stack-based virtual machine? 23:33:51 int-e, a mix of forth and assembler 23:42:21 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:43:16 mniip: that's not a specification 23:43:28 b_jonas, correct, those were examples 23:43:48 probably not useful to you but helps me clear up my mind! 23:44:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:44:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:47:30 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:46 -!- tromp has joined. 23:48:16 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 23:56:33 -!- Melvar has joined. 2018-12-11: 00:11:10 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 00:25:31 -!- imode has joined. 00:33:04 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:54:52 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:28 -!- tromp has joined. 01:12:07 I have some Christmas lights that some days it is flashy and other days it doesn't flash do you know why? 01:12:28 -!- brandonson has joined. 01:28:53 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:31:18 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:43:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:45:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:45:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 01:45:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:50:37 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58669&oldid=58668 * BradensEsolangs * (+12) 01:53:28 hmm, are there any simple processor-dependend esolangs that compile via search-and-replace to machine code? 01:53:35 *processor-independent 01:54:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:00:47 I don't know 02:01:06 If not, then try to make it up, please 02:04:44 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:05:08 -!- Melvar has joined. 02:11:11 brainfuck is close, the only thing that doesn't translate directly is […] 02:11:42 perhaps you could somehow use the call stack as a "start of loop" stack to compile dofuck? 02:12:40 That's where [] is do-while instead of while? 02:13:05 yes 02:13:13 always runs at least one iteration 02:14:15 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:14:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:14:51 According to logs of this channel it's TC 02:15:51 I know, I think I was there at the time 02:18:09 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:18:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:50:07 Yes, if it is do-while then you could use a stack. 02:52:46 what if instead + => inc (%rax) 02:53:17 we translated + => jc .+5; inc (%rax); clc; 02:53:34 then a [ could skip ahead by setting stc 02:54:29 What about nested loops then? 02:54:36 that's where the stakc comes in 02:55:00 O, OK, you could then store the flag in the stack 02:56:17 if carry is set, you push one and set carry, otherwise if condition is true then you push return address and clear carry, otherwise you push zero and set carry 02:57:05 on ], if carry is set, pop number into carry flag; otherwise pop number into instruction pointer 02:58:15 The call stack also works differently for different instruction sets. There are other differences too. 02:58:33 Yes, what you mention can work 02:58:45 That is a good idea 02:59:24 true 02:59:38 you need IP relative call and no hardware stackframes 03:03:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:06:35 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:07:39 MMIX has a register stack, and the GETA instruction can be used for relative addressing, and GO can be used to jump. There is then also PUSHJ and POP, as well as GET and PUT to alter the return address register 03:11:29 And then Z-machine code is another different thing: Subroutines must be aligned and must begin with a header specifying the local variables, and there is no way to find the return address. There are built-in stack frames. 03:14:39 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 03:15:13 And then, TAVERN does not have any relative jumps at all, making it more difficult. 03:20:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:23:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:23:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:23:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:27:42 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:52:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:56:09 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:04:24 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 04:08:09 has anybody seen u0_a101 lately? 04:09:33 the last time I saw him was back in august.. 04:38:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:39:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:54:04 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:16:18 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:47:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:48:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:55:04 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quiddity * New user account 05:57:01 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58670&oldid=58657 * Quiddity * (+173) add self 06:03:18 [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58671&oldid=36242 * Quiddity * (+374) add description, fix link, remove {{stub}} 06:18:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services). 06:18:22 -!- zzo38_ has joined. 06:18:24 -!- zzo38_ has changed nick to zzo38. 06:40:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:10:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:13:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:40:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:53:38 -!- hexfive has joined. 08:07:46 -!- Storkman_ has joined. 08:10:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:10:35 -!- Storkman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:13:13 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:13:20 -!- lambdabot has joined. 08:17:59 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:19:52 I have now set up a Netsubscribe server, as well as the interface to use it with twtxt. Subscriptions are not yet implemented, but perhaps in future it might be 08:20:42 Do you like this? 08:21:32 what does that even mean 08:23:42 Netsubscribe is a protocol I invented. I have also implemented a program called "netsubsc", which is available at the Fossil repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/netsubsc.ui/ Currenly subscriptions/notifications are not implemented, although I intend it will be in future (you are free to help if you want to do!) Try connecting to my computer on port 9296 08:26:51 The protocol documentation is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/netsubscribe I mentioned this before on here too 08:26:55 Does that explain? 08:28:33 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58672&oldid=58664 * Baidicoot * (+30) /* Placeholder Law */ 08:28:40 [[One Instruction Set Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58673 * Ais523 * (+18) redirect from the expansion of the acronym to the page about it 08:28:49 yeah I like it 08:28:53 [[Category:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58674&oldid=46454 * Ais523 * (+4) link from category to the mainspace article on the subject 08:31:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:35:00 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:42:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:46:42 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58675&oldid=58672 * Baidicoot * (+375) /* Scopes */ 08:47:34 do you reinvent the early internet? 08:53:04 I did not reinvent the internet; it is the same internet that it always is 08:53:45 It is still version 4; it is not version 1 of the internet 09:00:07 [[Simpler Subskin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+4107) new language 09:00:45 [[Simpler Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58677&oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+17) /* Definition */ clarify the irreversibility 09:01:32 [[Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58678&oldid=54349 * Ais523 * (+22) /* See also */ [[Simpler Subskin]] 09:02:06 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58679&oldid=58656 * Ais523 * (+22) /* S */ +[[Simpler Subskin]] 09:02:41 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58680&oldid=58487 * Ais523 * (+21) +[[Simpler Subskin]] 09:03:43 [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58681&oldid=58677 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Definition */ fix thinko 09:06:53 [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58682&oldid=56652 * Ais523 * (+142) /* List of OISCs */ +[[Simpler Subskin]] 09:09:54 -!- Melvar has joined. 09:14:27 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:15:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:15:57 -!- tromp has joined. 09:26:45 -!- Melvar has joined. 09:40:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:46:14 @ask Sgeo_ ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead <-- you're complaining about a file i probably haven't touched in two decades? 09:46:14 Consider it noted. 09:47:15 yep, 1994 09:50:55 Wow, there's about a 5/6 chance that was before I was born 09:58:27 Taneb: 14 March to be precise 09:58:42 (pi day) 09:59:26 the time of day is probably not precise, seems to be listed as 12:00 for all the files 10:04:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:04:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 10:04:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:04:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:37 oerjan: that is before I was born 10:10:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:10:19 -!- tromp has joined. 10:14:41 Taneb: it was a 100% chance hth 10:21:07 shachaf: only retroactively 10:35:24 Taneb: Haneb 10:35:31 invent anything good lately? 10:35:41 I don't think so 10:35:50 I've been busy 10:35:56 maybe a fancy superhuman ai? 10:36:20 I would be surprised if I had 10:36:52 `? tanebventions 10:36:54 Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 10:37:04 `? the limerick 10:37:06 the limerick? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:37:09 `? limerick 10:37:10 A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet. 10:37:32 `? special relativity 10:37:33 special relativity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:38:03 `? annus mirabilis 10:38:07 annus mirabilis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:17 1994: the year Taneb invented the universe 10:39:50 (or the other way around) 10:47:37 `` dowg tanebvention | grep relativ 10:47:39 9258:2016-10-13 slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity# 10:47:44 hm 10:48:05 `slwd tanebvention//s;, special relativity;; 10:48:12 tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 10:49:18 `? grace period 10:49:19 The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma. 10:49:28 `? oxford comma 10:49:29 oxford comma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:49:42 `grwp oxford 10:49:43 No output. 10:49:51 `grWp oxford 10:49:52 grace period:The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma. \ oxford:Oxford is the home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma. \ tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or ta 10:50:14 `2 grWp oxford 10:50:18 2/2:r tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 10:50:20 oerjan: things I haven't invented yet include Indiana Jones, the Oxford comma and a very long piece of rope 10:50:38 Although that does remind me of something I did invent 10:51:03 A new unit of time, the light-piece of string, which is the time it takes for light to travel the length of a piece of string in a vacuum 10:51:08 `slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;; 10:51:10 tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 10:51:35 `slwd grace period//s;.$;, but he ran out anyway.; 10:51:37 grace period//The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway. 10:52:13 `doag tanebvention | grep xford 10:52:16 No output. 10:52:26 `dowg tanebvention | grep xford 10:52:28 No output. 10:52:31 wat 10:52:41 Considering where I live maybe I should invent the Cambridge comma instead 10:53:00 `` dowg tanebvention | grep xford 10:53:02 11673:2018-12-11 slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;; \ 9222:2016-10-10 slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and# 10:55:46 `? italian 10:55:46 italian? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:55:50 shocking 10:55:58 `dowg italian 10:55:59 No output. 10:56:06 `grWp italian 10:56:09 tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. \ virgil:Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered see 10:56:17 `2 grWp italian 10:56:18 2/2: seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families. 10:56:46 * oerjan smells b_jonas in the second one 10:57:32 `le/rn italian//Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower. 10:57:34 Learned 'italian': Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower. 10:59:22 * oerjan worries if that's too private. 10:59:55 Taneb: you don't happen to sing in a choir, do you? 11:00:00 oerjan: no 11:00:09 I am trying to learn Italian, though 11:00:43 i guess that'll have to do. 11:01:15 Taneb: How long is a piece of string? 11:02:22 oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, what happened to `learn 11:02:33 tdnh 11:03:06 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:04:16 Taneb: did you invent the photoelectric effect also 11:07:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:12:54 [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58683&oldid=58650 * Oerjan * (+298) /* Name */ It makes perfect sense. Trust me. 11:13:56 I tried to watch Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster once 11:14:05 shachaf: oops. i think i started thinking up something where "Italian" wasn't first, then changed my mind. 11:14:55 Taneb: was it too horrible to contemplate? 11:15:06 oerjan: it was just kind of boring 11:15:10 ah. 11:15:18 Might have helped if I'd seen the first two 11:15:47 `grWp einstein 11:15:48 einstein:einstein is a germaneau for "a stone" 11:16:07 germaneau? 11:16:43 `` diff bin/grwp bin/grWp 11:16:44 1,2c1 \ < #! /bin/bash \ < cd wisdom; shopt -s dotglob; grep -R "$@" -- * \ --- \ > grwp -i "$@" 11:16:55 ah 11:17:19 so much insensitivity 11:20:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:21:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:31:40 [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58684&oldid=58671 * Oerjan * (+34) Bare URLs are scow 11:31:49 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 11:32:15 [[Template:Catseye]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58685&oldid=36281 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https 11:34:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:34:48 i suppose a lot of catseye links are broken nowadays, the template is for the site moving, not cpressey reorganizing... 11:35:39 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Client Quit). 11:36:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:39:19 oerjan: maybe cpressey is reorganizing the sane way, with proper redirects so that all old links continue to work? 11:42:13 no, the link prior to Quiddity's edit was broken. 11:54:31 ais523: something like that could be done for x86_64, but it's hard, because can't easily get named symbols, unless, you can do advanced search-and-replaces with backrefs, like in sed, or replaces into the search patterns, like in Fuun DNA or /// . 11:55:02 you could still do something without that, but it involves the runtime starting by making a jump table or even a full dynamic linker. 11:56:21 the simplest is probably to just set up a global table that you can index with small integers and points to globals, and put a simple header in front of functions that at the start of runtime searches for the start of the next header and fills the entry with a specified index in the global table. 11:56:33 That's a bit ugly, but could be done rather easily, with just simple search and replace. 11:57:00 The runtime would probably have to read through all the code in linear once at start time to locate the headers, but that's not too bad. 11:57:11 Linear time in code size that is. 11:58:09 But it's hard to tell what doesn't count as cheating, since the runtime could involve a whole interpreter. 12:08:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:01:30 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:05:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:16:42 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 13:35:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 13:59:03 [[Rotten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+493) Created page with "'''Rotten''' is a joke esolang whose programs can have 2 forms: * - Implicitly converted to `13$` * $ - Unescape the str..." 14:00:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:05:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:06:09 -!- tromp has joined. 14:08:58 [[Rotten]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58687&oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+298) 14:23:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:23:29 -!- tromp has joined. 14:25:04 [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58688&oldid=58687 * FireCubez * (+2) /* Fibonacci Sequence */ 14:42:58 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:56:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:59:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:07:08 [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58689&oldid=58675 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) Most languages use backslashes as escapes, but HTML likes to do its own thing. 15:19:42 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:21:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:21:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:22:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:22:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:30:33 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:30:12 -!- xkapastel has joined. 16:45:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:56:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:02:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:07:40 [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58690&oldid=58689 * Baidicoot * (-44) Rephrased out 'value' for clarity 17:10:03 [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58691&oldid=58690 * Baidicoot * (+61) actually finished a sentance 17:22:41 -!- imode has joined. 17:25:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:39:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:53:56 -!- FireFly has changed nick to Luciole. 18:04:28 * oerjan frappe Luciole -----### 18:06:38 brutal 18:07:52 the french verb seems a bit less specific 18:08:00 Ou! 18:32:12 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:45:53 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:52:13 * oerjan ATCHOO 19:00:09 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:07:02 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:10:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:29:42 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 19:32:37 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:49:53 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:20:56 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:21:34 -!- Essadon has joined. 20:55:38 oerjan: le force de frappe 21:12:37 *la 21:17:36 . o O ( A guillotine is the ultimate hair-splitting device. ) 21:28:22 * oerjan atischo 21:29:36 “Ring – a – ring of roses, a pocketful of posies, Atischo, Atischo, We all fall DOWN.”?!!!! 21:32:26 (also it appears that "attischo" is the preferred spelling) 21:34:27 fun. https://quizlet.com/107613526/grade-8-history-the-bubonic-plague-test-4-flash-cards/ 22:05:03 [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58692&oldid=58654 * BradensEsolangs * (+51) 22:18:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:23:39 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:25:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:34:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:50:17 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:57:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:58:06 eh k s eh k s eh k s t eh n t aa s iy ow n 23:08:16 stupid mumble rapper stop having marginal phonemes in your stupid ass names 23:10:53 we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model 23:11:05 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 23:12:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:45:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:46:11 -!- tromp has joined. 23:56:18 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 2018-12-12: 00:08:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:21:15 [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58693&oldid=36637 * BradensEsolangs * (+135) /* A quine in Unary */ 00:23:22 [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58694&oldid=55600 * BradensEsolangs * (+28) /* ... */ new section 00:32:17 -!- imode has joined. 01:01:28 -!- hexfive has joined. 01:28:58 -!- iconmaster has joined. 01:32:03 -!- iconmaster has quit (Client Quit). 01:32:58 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:45:43 -!- user24 has joined. 01:47:28 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:15:24 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:16:47 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:18:39 -!- brandonson has joined. 02:55:47 -!- nelsonhb has joined. 03:00:17 -!- nelsonhb has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.5 -- http://www.instantbird.com). 03:20:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:25:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:25:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:25:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:40:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:02:32 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:04:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:17:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:17:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:19:17 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:19:49 -!- tromp has joined. 05:21:53 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:47:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:47:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:52:40 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:54:39 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 05:55:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:04:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:05:11 -!- tromp has joined. 08:11:03 [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58695&oldid=54638 * Keymaker * (+796) A loop example just for fun. 08:13:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:14:27 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:25:48 -!- xkapastel has joined. 08:38:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:53:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:01:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:02:39 @metar lowi 10:02:39 LOWI 120950Z 27008KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 M02/M08 Q1023 NOSIG 10:13:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:31:30 -!- moei has joined. 11:42:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:52:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:36:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:00:00 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cycliccircle * New user account 14:03:01 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58696&oldid=58670 * Cycliccircle * (+38) 14:19:59 [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58697&oldid=58692 * BradensEsolangs * (+25) 14:20:25 this one seems to have big plans 14:21:37 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58698&oldid=57064 * BradensEsolangs * (+158) /* Maybe esoteric programming is an adult/mature-content subject ... ? */ 14:22:23 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58699&oldid=57734 * BradensEsolangs * (+170) /* Any admins left? */ new section 14:24:31 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58700&oldid=58699 * BradensEsolangs * (+124) /* Any admins left? */ 14:32:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:37:56 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 14:38:04 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58701&oldid=57570 * BradensEsolangs * (+242) /* Featured articles */ new section 15:04:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:10:06 -!- derpy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:14:50 -!- nfd has joined. 15:15:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:16:29 -!- derpy has joined. 15:18:21 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:22:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:24:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:24:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:24:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:28:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:38:05 -!- user24 has joined. 16:04:53 -!- imode has joined. 16:16:17 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:29:03 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:34:33 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 17:06:01 -!- imode has joined. 17:10:04 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:16:59 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:27:03 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:33:32 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:35:40 -!- sleepnap has joined. 17:37:01 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw 17:37:29 -!- imode has joined. 17:38:25 oren: which is it, overcute anime or horrible repetetive music or both? 17:40:04 int-e: neither. a video on why "object oriented programming is embarassing" 17:40:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:40:51 is it that dude who has a hardon for nested functions. 17:44:11 "The world is full of bad programmers and currently, most of them are doing OO" - I read that 15 to 20 years ago, and I forgot where I found it. 18:00:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:02:16 I like the part the part where he says that past a certain level of complexity the UML diagram can't be planar but doesn't appear to know the word "planar" 18:02:34 oren: got a link? 18:02:52 at 14:20 or so in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw 18:03:28 while I'm not a fan of OO he has some rather odd justifications for his arguments. 18:15:45 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58702&oldid=58700 * Oerjan * (+157) /* Any admins left? */ Nope. 18:19:51 [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58703&oldid=58694 * Oerjan * (+100) gunsnide 18:22:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:26:01 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:29:55 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:30:10 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:41:36 `olist 1148 18:41:37 olist 1148: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:53:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:57:42 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 19:20:05 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 19:27:19 oo 19:30:14 we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model <-- just be happy as long as they don't use xhosa hth 19:48:46 long time no pizza 19:49:22 how did you get there from "nasal"? 19:49:53 (you should not sniff pizza, hth) 19:56:57 int-e: why not twh 19:57:43 shachaf: it may get stuck in your sinuses for starters 20:01:51 of course oerjan was sneezing heavily yesterday 20:07:42 -!- imode has joined. 20:20:05 int-e: i'm not sniffing pizza, i keep the two paper towels separate hth 20:21:05 int-e: also i'm just implying the rappers could use far worse phonemes than a nasal o 20:22:29 Uh-oh... that got me... let's be generous and call it "thinking": How does one write down farts in the IPA? 20:23:10 * oerjan has Qongqothwane on his list of songs to maybe learn someday. that ngq seems quite fiendish. 20:25:42 i'm sneezing heavier today hth 20:27:02 i suspect ipa doesn't have symbols for sounds not made with the head 20:27:27 although there might be a bilabial trill symbol 20:27:52 i think i may have seen the wikipedia page 20:28:55 . o O ( Hmm, what about banging your head against a wall? ) 20:29:08 [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58704&oldid=41891 * AIden * (+760) 20:29:10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_trill and some languages even use it 20:29:36 [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58705&oldid=58704 * AIden * (-5) 20:29:49 [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58706&oldid=58705 * AIden * (+5) 20:29:49 int-e: i considered being more precise but i couldn't think of a word that covered only the relevant cavities 20:30:13 I understand. 20:32:06 `icode ʙ 20:32:07 ​[U+0299 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL B] 20:32:54 [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58707&oldid=58706 * AIden * (-19) 20:39:12 [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58708&oldid=58707 * AIden * (+179) 21:07:31 explainxkcd here i come 21:08:52 way too american 21:11:36 indeed 21:19:43 actually i might have got it if my mind hadn't read FDR as JFK, stupid acronyms tdh 21:19:50 *tdnh 21:20:58 well part of it, never heard the actual speech. 21:21:21 that i remember. 21:25:45 * int-e didn't recognize FDR. 22:18:42 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:23:27 -!- neanias_ has joined. 22:25:51 -!- digitalc1ld has joined. 22:26:27 -!- jix_ has joined. 22:29:26 -!- neanias has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:29:26 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:29:28 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:29:35 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:29:35 -!- neanias_ has changed nick to neanias. 22:29:35 -!- HackEso has joined. 22:51:49 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:55:15 -!- imode has joined. 23:02:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:06:56 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:10:14 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:38:23 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 23:42:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:45:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:46:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:48:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:55:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:50 -!- tromp has joined. 2018-12-13: 00:10:59 -!- imode has joined. 00:42:12 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 01:33:35 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58709&oldid=58701 * Ais523 * (+498) /* Featured articles */ r to BradensEsolangs 02:09:17 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:45:27 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:00:48 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:03:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:14:10 -!- sleepnap has left. 03:14:14 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:24:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:24:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:24:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:53:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:08:20 why can't I find anybody to work with me. 04:09:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:10:10 seems like I can't talk to anybody who knows what I'm talking about, and when I find someone, they turn out to be an asshole. 04:10:36 whereas the ones who don't know what I'm talking about are wonderful people. 04:11:05 why is it the class of people I can converse with are always the worst. 04:11:08 My computer is a bit dusty. Should I clean it? 04:11:18 get a can of compressed air. 04:11:36 or an air compressor. 04:12:17 O, OK. Should I need to open it? 04:12:27 I would. 04:15:18 OK. When I replaced the hard drive they also cleaned it with a vacuum cleaner. They did not charge me any money for cleaning it, and I also asked them for a CD and they did not charge me for that either (although I paid 5 cents for it anyways; they accepted donations, and once they gave me the CD I decided I would pay for it; 5 cents is what they estimated it is worth). I did purchase the hard drive from them though. 04:15:40 sure, you can use a vacuum cleaner. 04:17:07 Tomorrow I could turn it off and open it and clean it perhaps 04:17:35 (I usually leave the computer on, but only turn off the monitor, since it is a internet server) 04:45:40 I'm gonna dismiss the dude I was working with as a nut. 04:47:37 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:21:51 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:22:16 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 06:17:21 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:43:08 [[PISW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58710&oldid=56711 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name 06:43:40 [[MITLML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58711&oldid=54544 * Ais523 * (+1) spelling of category name 06:44:08 [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58712&oldid=58351 * Ais523 * (+0) spelling of category name 06:44:32 [[Rockstar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58713&oldid=57936 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name 06:47:03 There seems no Linux driver for the temperature sensor of my computer, although the temperature for the hard drive can be read with smartctl. The computer doesn't feel hot, though (the monitor is hotter, although not much). I have read to elevate the computer six inches off of the floor, although I am not sure if I have anything to put it on top of, or what should be used. 06:47:53 (I do have the system load average displayed on the system status bar, though, even though I cannot get the temperature displayed there.) 07:46:08 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:49:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:20:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:27:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:27:28 -!- tromp has joined. 08:52:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:52:57 -!- tromp has joined. 09:12:13 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:23:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:24:00 -!- tromp has joined. 09:49:08 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:49:44 -!- tromp has joined. 10:12:35 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:13:05 -!- aloril_ has joined. 10:34:09 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:34:54 -!- aloril_ has joined. 10:53:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:53:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:54:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:54:35 -!- tromp has joined. 11:06:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:06:59 -!- tromp has joined. 11:11:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:11:44 -!- tromp has joined. 11:13:25 -!- Essadon has joined. 11:54:03 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:55:35 -!- izabera has joined. 12:20:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:21:04 -!- izabera has quit (Changing host). 12:21:04 -!- izabera has joined. 13:36:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:36:39 @metar ENVA 13:36:41 ENVA 131320Z 10008KT CAVOK M12/M14 Q1032 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT 13:37:03 on second thought, i think i'll stay in for another day, and turn up the heat. 13:38:01 (although that's the airport, it's supposedly closer to M7 here.) 13:38:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 13:38:34 although if i'm still sick tomorrow, i may have to brave the weather to stock up on caffeine (and pizza!) 13:41:37 queen albia is so powerful, which sadly means she'll almost certainly be out of commission before our heroes get to take on the big villain... such is narrative causality. 13:41:49 I just came back from Finland, it was pretty cow there. 13:41:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:41:53 @metar EFHK 13:41:53 EFHK 131320Z 02007KT 9999 OVC020 M02/M04 Q1033 NOSIG 13:41:58 Guess now it's sub-cow. 13:42:03 ic 13:45:22 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:03:15 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hw2.png]]" 14:05:47 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:08:25 -!- GeekDude has joined. 14:22:23 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 14:25:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:28:22 [[He110!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (+3373) Rule 110 meta Joking language 14:32:11 [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58716&oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (-1) category typo 14:32:31 fizzie: what do you mean cow/sub-cow? 14:34:01 -!- b_jonas has joined. 14:34:20 [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58717&oldid=58716 * Salpynx * (+13) /* Execution */ 14:37:02 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 14:37:09 . o O ( knock knock ) 14:38:24 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:55:24 paul2520: It's a channel in-joke, sorry. METAR syntax for temperature (or dew point) that's below zero but rounds to zero is "M00", and cows go moo. 14:55:45 heh 15:00:52 hah 15:00:54 thanks 15:12:51 Hmm I guess I was not part of *that* in-group. 15:13:34 Is anyone freeing the advent of code follow-up problems from the gamified frontend? 15:17:19 I got as far as "To play, please identify yourself via one of these services:" and then lost interest. 15:21:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:23:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:23:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:23:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:23:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:27:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:45:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:48:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:49:07 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:50:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:10:55 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:13:46 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:17:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:19:11 -!- imode has joined. 16:20:07 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:38:31 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:45:37 -!- hello has joined. 16:45:46 hello 16:46:43 -!- hello has left. 16:55:51 -!- imode has joined. 17:04:23 [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58718&oldid=58691 * Baidicoot * (+0) /* Scopes */ 17:50:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:51:16 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:09:18 [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58719&oldid=57330 * DMC * (+18) /* Tedious memory initialization process */ 18:13:57 [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58720&oldid=50776 * Ais523 * (+29) /* See also */ Binary Lambda Calculus deserves a see also, IMO 18:26:56 -!- imode has joined. 18:32:10 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Shikhin. 19:09:53 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 19:22:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:30:01 -!- imode has joined. 19:59:17 @metar CYYZ 19:59:18 CYYZ 131900Z 09005KT 4SM BR OVC005 01/00 A3020 RMK ST8 SLP237 20:14:30 https://www.glassdoor.ca/Interview/SoundHound-Interview-RVW6750307.htm 20:14:40 ^ lol this is hilarious 20:15:26 apparently pointer arithmetic is "features that most programmers rarely use or consider" 20:20:10 heh 20:20:44 How do you know they asked about pointer arithmetic? 20:26:16 Luciole: because I know what the interview questions are 20:26:23 Ah 20:26:58 Luciole: we ask about pointer arithmetic, memory management, and bit-logic 20:28:32 obviously those are all essentially to your build system 20:28:36 *-ly 20:28:46 * oerjan chases muphry around with the swatter 20:31:06 oerjan: well, memory management is these days. a recurring problem is that GCC runs out of memory 20:31:31 . o O ( well don't use recursion then ) 20:32:18 anyway, i thought good memory management these days was all about avoiding pointers. 20:32:36 (not references) 20:35:31 [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58721&oldid=58712 * Ais523 * (+1070) /* Implementations */ add one 20:35:53 [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58722&oldid=58721 * Ais523 * (-2) implemented 20:36:31 implementary, my dear watson 20:41:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 20:55:00 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58723&oldid=58652 * Ais523 * (+68) /* External resources */ TIO! link 20:58:58 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 21:28:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:29:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:47:16 [[Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58724&oldid=40978 * Voltage2007 * (-5) Fixed grammatical errors 21:55:42 [[0815]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58725&oldid=51053 * Voltage2007 * (-100) /* Language details */ Fixed grammatical errors 21:59:08 [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58726&oldid=57560 * Voltage2007 * (+7) Fixed grammatical errors 22:01:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:04:39 [[Ettore Marmo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58727&oldid=36422 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors 22:04:39 Now my computer is clean 22:05:21 I had to use chopsticks to clean the heat sink 22:06:01 that's an interesting choice 22:08:20 [[Kolmogorov machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58728&oldid=39252 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors 22:09:01 Yes, but what is what I found to work 22:10:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:10:36 Hmm, there are newer prints and they got rid of the "Only the Ancestor should be revered." flavor text and the preaching bird mystic with the polearm in the image. So Unquestioned Authority enters into the list of cards where I prefer a particular edition over other editions. 22:10:59 -!- tromp has joined. 22:12:19 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:16:06 Another interesting card like that is Dark Ritual: there are various combinations with different art and flavor text, and my favourite is the Ice Age one, which both has the necromancer with the goat horns (styled after Tim) and the flavor text "'Leshrac, my liege, grant me the power I am due' -- Lim-Dul, the Necromancer" 22:16:07 [[$]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58729&oldid=55719 * Voltage2007 * (+15) Fixed grammatical errors 22:16:35 That's a fun one to chant when you get two mana for the card. 22:24:52 The hard drive in my computer seems to have a broken temperature log. Although it says the temperature history size is 478, only 128 entries are used (from 0 to 127). Do you know how to fix this in smartctl so that it properly uses 128 entries? 22:29:42 b_jonas: Yes, some there are different prints of cards I also sometimes prefer some over others, although I think you can use any version 22:37:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:37:53 -!- tromp has joined. 22:44:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:53:06 [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58730&oldid=58717 * Salpynx * (+777) /* Further development */ 23:00:14 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:08:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:29 -!- tromp has joined. 23:10:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:10:23 -!- tromp has joined. 23:24:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:27:03 zzo38: certainly, I have used my other Dark Ritual because I haven't bought enough of the Ice Age printing yet 23:56:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:57:43 -!- Storkman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 2018-12-14: 00:03:30 -!- Storkman has joined. 00:54:34 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:05:02 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:06:27 -!- erdic has joined. 01:24:17 [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58731&oldid=58730 * Ais523 * (+732) R110 isn't known Turing-complete from this start 01:24:44 [[Sequential tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58732 * Ais523 * (+35) redirect from abbreviated name 01:38:30 -!- imode has joined. 01:42:47 [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58733&oldid=58709 * BradensEsolangs * (+157) /* Featured articles */ 02:23:44 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 03:22:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:25:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:25:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:25:30 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:33:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:51:26 I altered how subscription works in the Netsubscribe protocol to what seems to be a better way. The old way (only following targets) seems to have some problems I can think of, so now subscriptions are separate from targets (although targets are still followed to find subscribers). 04:52:37 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Retrac * New user account 06:46:31 Why does the computer make so much noise? There seems no problem with temperatures, fan speeds, or operation of computer. If I had a microphone I might more easily be able to determine exactly where the noise is coming from 06:49:24 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:17:31 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:19:15 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:34:40 -!- fractal has joined. 09:14:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:47:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:50:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:05:01 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:14:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:15:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:13:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:19:53 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:17:01 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:17:02 I think the internet is broken. 12:18:39 Hmm. What aspect of it? 12:19:08 int-e: it seems too silent right now 12:19:24 as if people were trying to post but their posts don't get through the internet 12:29:02 -!- Shikhin has changed nick to shikhin. 13:02:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:13:47 see? I don't even get your replies. 13:13:59 or the people who'd reply don't get my chat 13:33:57 `perl -e warn 4*4*4*4 # that should be 256 I think 13:33:58 256 at -e line 1. 13:34:00 yeah 13:34:05 `perl -e warn 4**4 # that should be 256 I think 13:34:07 256 at -e line 1. 13:34:17 `perl -e warn 3**6 13:34:18 729 at -e line 1. 13:35:11 2**8 == 4**4; 2*8 == 4*4 13:35:12 hmm 13:36:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:44:06 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:00:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:49:09 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:53:39 And then there were 29. 15:15:44 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 15:18:43 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:24:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:27:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:27:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:27:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:57:07 From random mailing list chatter, a .hgrc [alias] tip: hg = !/usr/games/cowsay -f stegosaurus $HG_ARGS | /usr/games/lolcat; $HG "$@" 15:57:11 Gives you a little bit of whimsical fun when you accidentally duplicate the "hg" part, perhaps by pausing to think after writing it the first time. 16:06:08 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 16:08:11 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:28:53 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:31:47 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:41:46 -!- imode has joined. 17:58:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:08:05 <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c). 18:08:11 2**8 == 4**4; 2*8 == 4*4 <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c). 18:08:45 and then one of b or d can be chosen freely. 18:12:15 a^(1/a) = (a^b)^(1/(a*b)) = (c^d)^(1/(c*d)) = c^(1/c) 18:31:45 -!- moony_ has joined. 19:00:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:04:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:38:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:11:57 -!- moony_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:16:25 -!- digitalc1ld has changed nick to digitalcold. 20:19:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:28:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:29:47 -!- tromp has joined. 21:06:07 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:13:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:22:12 -!- imode has joined. 21:37:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:50:47 -!- MDude has joined. 21:51:21 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:08:14 fizzie: that hg alias inspired me to make https://gist.github.com/olsner/4555427ccc67a5548268b40651399804 to spruce it up a bit 22:10:39 -!- b_jonas has joined. 22:24:33 wow 22:27:38 now what 22:28:09 apparently it's the neighbor's turn to have a cold. 22:30:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:32:11 oerjan: now make it so that there's another olist, to make up for the long wait 22:38:00 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:43:00 omen cannot be rushed, lest turn bad 22:44:42 I have something which could potentially be a flu 22:45:29 or could potentially be food poisoning 22:50:59 flud poisoning? 22:52:58 oerjan: or maybe drink tea. it's nice to drink even if you don't have the cold anymore. 22:53:24 the olist giveth and the olist taketh away 22:56:44 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:02:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:02:58 yeah 23:03:02 like Banjo 23:05:09 by the way, has anyone figured out anything useful about the webcomic artist plague, the hypothetical common cause of the Giant's hand injury and Jeph Jacques's hand injury? 23:06:20 has any of the other big name hand-drawn webcomic artists like Scott Adams, or the person who makes Schlock Mercenary, catch it too? 23:26:30 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:31:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:34:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:35 -!- tromp has joined. 23:57:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 2018-12-15: 00:02:02 -!- imode has joined. 00:02:38 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 00:14:51 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 00:24:57 olsner: Funky. 00:35:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:45:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:04:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:05:00 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:12:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:02:25 -!- imode has joined. 02:46:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:47:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:52:46 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 02:52:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:54:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:03:20 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: No route to host). 03:09:43 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 03:20:47 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:25:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:25:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:25:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 03:25:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:00:36 -!- MDude has joined. 04:58:52 -!- nchambers has joined. 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:12:17 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:21:31 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:12:02 One variant of Scrabble that I read is that you are allowed to exchange your letters with ones already on the board, one at a time, as long as the new letter still causes it to form a valid word. You can do this multiple times per turn, but only one letter is changed at a time. 06:19:01 -!- imode has joined. 06:49:07 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:51:31 -!- MDude has joined. 06:57:27 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:06:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:06:53 -!- tromp has joined. 07:06:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:17:54 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:47:09 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:47:47 -!- tromp has joined. 07:52:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:53:03 -!- tromp has joined. 08:10:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:10:52 -!- tromp has joined. 08:26:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:53:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:01:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:07:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:08:42 -!- b_jonas has joined. 09:09:16 zzo38: I don't like the idea for that Scrabble variant. I think it would lead to slow play. 09:09:58 zzo38: What you could do is to allow only blank tiles to be replaced, even with a different letter than the blank originally designated. 09:10:19 And possibly add two more blank tiles. 09:24:38 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:02:26 maybe a rule where you can add letters into existing words, expanding them? 10:07:50 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hello World! in He110! with other automata rules.png]]" 10:08:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:39:19 [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58735&oldid=58731 * Salpynx * (+642) /* Further development */ encode other automata edge rules 11:05:56 [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58736&oldid=58735 * Salpynx * (+1087) /* Examples */ other automata example 12:25:43 [[Symbolic Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58737&oldid=53257 * FTcode * (-228) 12:32:41 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 12:33:57 [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58738&oldid=58737 * FTcode * (+186) 12:51:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:53:21 @metar ENVA 12:53:21 ENVA 151250Z 10006KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1028 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT 12:54:09 my cold seems to have got worse again (although without the sneezing), so i'm staying inside for the day 12:54:23 which then makes my _back_ complain. 12:55:20 @metar lowi 12:55:21 LOWI 151250Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW030 M03/M09 Q1022 NOSIG 12:55:23 old man oerjan 12:55:31 or rather, my back chose to complain today and a walk outside is the usual way i get that better :( 12:57:02 ♫ I am 48, going on 49... ♫ 12:57:10 you can walk up and down your room 12:57:40 i do 12:57:42 soon to be square 12:57:58 i'll be so hip 12:58:16 (unless i need a hip replacement. not quite there yet...) 12:59:35 `? tofu 12:59:37 tofu? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:59:49 (I just stumbled across "Trust on First Use (TOFU)") 13:01:08 `grWp carbon 13:01:10 No output. 13:01:15 `quote carbon 13:01:15 28) is there a problem with it being carbonized :D yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal" 13:02:46 salpynx's he110 makes me wonder if anyone's tried to make something like a hello, world in rule 110 itself ... something that starts from something else and then looks like it for a bit 13:02:51 fungot`: say something? 13:02:51 int-e: i may have figured it out already) was that it 13:03:18 ^style europarl 13:03:18 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 13:03:42 fungot`: pontificate? 13:03:43 int-e: as i explained earlier, and goes on until 17 april. i am in favour of sensible management and control system needs to be consistency. for example, i see a confirmation of the highly adverse impact of illegal immigration with all its weaknesses and its encouraging signs, i would like to seek your support for my opinion which it voted upon and adopted unanimously. it is still necessary, and regionalisation, which i would a 13:04:19 ^style 13:04:19 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 13:04:28 ^style agora 13:04:28 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 13:04:40 fungot 13:04:40 int-e: whenever a player randomly from among all the properties named to the public 13:07:44 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:12:31 fizzie: these days there should be a ukparl style 13:13:28 (that thing looks more and more like a big game of chicken) 13:15:54 are there transcripts of the debates? 13:16:04 hmm, +public 13:18:01 i wanted to pun tofu with meatless, but cannot find any confirmation that the latter has the metaphoric meaning i imagine 13:19:31 "The single largest strength of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction." "The largest weakness of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction," 13:25:54 secure communication between people would be so easy without the people 13:26:25 that would be quotable if it weren't too obvious 13:26:50 secure communication between people would be so easy without the human factor 13:26:51 :P 13:27:20 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:27:55 also https://xkcd.com/703/ 13:44:38 -!- derpy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:00:05 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:04 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:35 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 15:25:25 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:26:40 -!- derpy has joined. 15:26:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:26:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:26:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 15:26:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:32:06 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:34:10 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 15:35:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:36:08 -!- tromp has joined. 15:41:45 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:43:38 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 15:46:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:47:19 -!- tromp has joined. 15:53:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:53:20 -!- tromp has joined. 15:54:48 int-e: "This Hansard corpus (or collection of texts) contains nearly every speech given in the British Parliament from 1803-2005, and it allows you to search these speeches (including semantically-based searches) in ways that are not possible with any other resource." 15:55:03 Unfortunately, 2005 is a little too far in the past to reflect the... recent events. 15:55:29 Still, could be worth to include. I haven't added any corpora in a while. 15:56:59 Except it looks like the data isn't freely available there, it's just a search engine. Maybe. But perhaps it's available somewhere else. 15:58:15 Good, there's a CC-BY-licensed corpus of "British parliamentary debates from 1998 to 2015" at Ortolang. 15:58:22 Still a bit dated for this particular use though. 15:58:38 aww 15:59:15 I'm sure in a decade or two we'll (a) all look back on this and laugh (b) have it available. 16:22:41 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:25:59 oerjan: I opened the newest of the files at random, and they're talking about brexit. 16:32:50 Ooh, TheyWorkForYou publishes a rsyncable database that is actually up to date. 16:33:48 When was that damnable referendum again? Maybe I'll train from that day up to present. 16:35:34 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:36:07 -!- tromp has joined. 16:36:14 yay 16:36:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 16:41:31 -!- imode has joined. 16:47:22 -!- grumble has changed nick to \x01VERSION\x01. 16:50:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:50:34 -!- tromp has joined. 16:57:46 "Finished reading 25663587 words." 17:01:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:05:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:19:02 A mahjong rule variant: If someone makes a closed kan while you have riichi, if the one they make kan is the only possible card that could complete your hand, then you win; it counts as tsumo rather than ron. 17:24:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:34:31 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:49:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 17:50:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:50:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 17:50:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:56:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:24 -!- tromp has joined. 18:04:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 18:06:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:07:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:30 -!- tromp has joined. 18:21:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:21:50 -!- tromp has joined. 18:34:11 anybody wanna contest that sets are computationally elusive. 18:38:46 imode: that sounds a bit too vague for my liking 18:40:51 core reasoning: there is no convenient way to store a set as a single data structure that is simply unordered and unique. any computational primitives you use must have additional logic added to their operations to preserve uniqueness and a lack of ordering. 18:41:01 A precise statement along these lines is that the set of computable (or recursively enumerable) sets of natural numbers is countable, for example, so there are uncountably many other sets that cannot be computed (recursivly enumerated). 18:41:34 you can use lists with a uniqueness predicate and ignore ordering, but there's an ordering there, and you're just using lists. 18:41:57 you can use any manner of other discrete structure but ordering is going to be there. 18:43:37 on that level, for finite sets, lists and just equality is enough to represent sets... you just won't have a unique representation. 18:44:21 Which btw means that finite sets of computable reals are tricky because computable reals don't have a decidable equality. 18:44:26 kind of what I'm saying. ordering and non-uniqueness kind of eliminates sets as a basic structure. 18:44:27 You may call that elusive. 18:44:43 because ordering and non-uniqueness are fundamental 18:45:03 not how set are defined 18:45:23 a set is defined as a collection of unordered unique elements. 18:45:33 that may be arbitrarily nested. 18:45:34 axiom of extensionality: A = B if x in A if and only if x in B for all x. 18:46:01 sets aren't ordered even in set theory 18:46:43 you aren't getting what I'm saying, so let me be more clear: there is no such thing as an unordered unique collection in computing. 18:46:57 there are ordered collections with a uniqueness predicate. 18:47:37 but I can't build a "set structured memory", for instance. 18:47:58 I can fake it by ignoring order. 18:48:08 and I can fake it by adding a uniqueness check to every insertion. 18:48:14 meh it's really a matter of defining an interface for your data structure 18:48:49 basically all data structures have extraneous information. For example, two equal big integers may have different addresses. 18:50:37 So I'd disagree. Working with quotients (representations modulo some congruence relation) is everywhere in programming, and while it's possible to peek inside and destroy the illusion, it's generally not useful. 18:50:59 assume for a moment that you wanted to build a "computational foundation for mathematics", which basically means taking a model of computation and trying to define a bunch of useful math within it. we already have ZFC, so why not try modeling ZFC within that model of computation so the operations line up. 18:51:01 So as long as we have equality tests for the elements, we can represent finite sets, no issue at all. 18:51:18 much like we tried almost a century ago. 18:51:57 there is no model of computation that exists that can define/formulate sets without that illusion _unless_ sets are taken as a computational primitive. 18:51:59 much like in SETL. 18:53:14 my question is is the statement above true, noting that the only reason it can be considered true is that every model of computation not presupposing unordered unique collections admits only ordered non-unique collections. 18:53:22 imode: meh, I've done some refinement in Isabelle/HOL. For finite sets, typically one refines to lists there are two choices. a) equality only, refining to lists with unique elements. Whenever one folds (iterates) over a set, one has to use an associative, commutative operation. b) refine to ordered lists, which solve the unique representation problem. 18:53:29 but a) is a perfectly viable approach. 18:54:18 c) is a proper container like red-black-trees, which refine ordered lists and do away with unique representations again. 18:55:17 right. but that's kind of my point: you always have to suppose, to work properly, an ordered, non-unique collection in order to derive unordered unique collections. 18:55:35 yes, but we're dealing with it. 18:55:38 :P 18:56:02 and as I said, the unordered view on a list is actually viable. 18:56:09 if mathematics is to be considered algorithmic, this is a non-zero unit cost to dealing with sets. enumeration, folding, any operation really incurs an extra step compared to starting with ordered collections. 18:56:25 it's uncommon because usually orders are easy to define and give significant performance benefits. 18:56:49 an additional question would be: what would the "list" or "tree" equivalent of ZFC be. 18:57:02 hell I'll take non-well founded theories. 18:59:22 I get that you can "deal with it", but it's just a philosophical take. 18:59:41 Embedding data types into sets tends to be tedious. You can carve out lists from partial functions from naturals to your element type, but that's rather ad hoc. In Isabelle/HOL there's some heavy machinery reasoning about cardinals that does that for a large class of least fixed points of various functors (and a bit more to allow codata). 18:59:43 what's more "fundamental" in structuring something? does structure imply some order? 19:01:12 And that may be considered cheating at the foundations because Isabelle/HOL isn't ZFC, it's a Hindley-Milner typed set theory. 19:02:23 But in any case, you can embed data type constructions into ZFC. You can also take the attitude that since you can embed Turing Machines into ZFC, and those cover everything computable, you don't need to bother with programming language types at all. 19:02:32 * int-e shrugs. 19:02:53 * int-e wonders where this is going... 19:03:16 int-e: sure, but in theory you could mechanically translate that Hindley-Milner stuff to an underlying untyped representation, right? 19:03:37 the type system is certainly useful, to avoid mistakes, but it's not some theoretical problem I think 19:03:42 I don't think it counts as cheating 19:03:49 But I think the main disagreement is still that I'm saying that quotients are everywhere and so standard that they are hardly worth discussing, and imode disagrees. 19:04:08 I parse your agument int-e as "it doesn't matter". 19:05:13 imode: A point I haven't made: quotients are even present in mathematics, everywhere. Constructing rationals from integers, constructing reals from rationals... in the typical approaches, you have some representation of your new object, but it's not unique, so you take a quotiont. 19:05:31 not sure what quotient means in this context. 19:07:14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_algebra 19:07:48 I think we have to consider the different properties of the things we build the "primitives" of math out of, and if math is to be taken as algorithmic (not necessarily turing computable, but algorithmic), then the properties of those things need to be neccessarily algorithmic as well. 19:08:50 which just made me think about some foundational stuff like ZF and ZFC. 19:09:12 1/3 is a representation of a rational number; it can also be represented as (-1)/(-3), 2/6, (-2)/(-6), ... 19:09:16 like "can you represent sets computationally", "how would you represent sets in arbitrary models of computation". 19:10:08 so I guess I'm just searching for a counterexample. like, what model of computation doesn't presuppose sets and doesn't have that illusion. where are the models where we don't have to "deal with it" or spend some time or space complexity. 19:10:47 I don't think that sets are fundamental in the outside sense, as in, that we use ZFC in praticular as the standard axiom system is more or less an accident of history, and we could use many equivalent systems with data structures other than sets. 19:10:50 so when defining Q, a common approach is to first look at pairs (a, b) with b != 0 (and value a/b), and then say that a/b = c/d if a*d = b*c, which defines a congruence relation (it's an equivalence relation which is compatible with addition and multiplication), and then take the quotient modulo that congruence relation. 19:11:05 right, and that presupposes ordered pairs. 19:11:26 And then for computing with elements of Q, we routinely go back to representatives a/b, rather than writing out complete congruence classes. 19:11:27 But I also don't think there's anything wrong with sets. They're simple and convenient enough, not very artificial, so this is a good choice. 19:12:21 And yes, we can usually use representatives, but it's not essential that we can use them, and in some general contexts a choice of representative elements need not exist. 19:12:21 well, I think that ordered collections are natural from a philosophical standpoint. show me something without order, and I'll show you that it's not a preferred order, but it _is_ an order. 19:12:30 algorithmically I take that stance as well. 19:12:36 Taking the whole equivalence class usually works as a fallback. 19:13:19 It gets ugly when that equivalence class is not a set, because it makes proofs more complicated to write, but there's no real theoretical difficulty. 19:13:24 imode: so that's an example of a quotient, which basically exhibits the same phenomenon you're worrying about for sets: the same rational number has several representations. A difference is that we have decided which representative is canonical, for every rational number (a/b with b > 0 and a and b coprime... but you can actually work with rational numbers without ever doing that). 19:14:48 that's actually pretty interesting. I actually wonder if there might be some foundation in something like a nondeterministic TM which enumerates a given set. 19:15:16 i.e "here's a bunch of potential orderings, pick the one you want, or pick at random." 19:15:51 some algorithm that enumerates/generates a set but does not presuppose a given order. 19:20:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:21:12 so that means you'd need to presuppose nondeterminism.. hm. 19:21:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:22:33 imode: I'm sorry, I should not have been quite so dismissive. The issue you're describing is real. It's just that it's well-known and quite universal, we deal with it all the time, when programming, and also in mathematics itself. 19:23:28 it's alright! just trying to reconcile it with my personal sense of aesthetics. I have a programming environment that I'm building that already has a language, so I'm considering how I'd approach some foundations of that language. 19:23:46 "yes, the program said [42,1,666,23], but let's just pretend that the order has no significance, because we know it's printing a set." 19:23:53 . o O ( what's the categorical definition of non-canonicity ) 19:24:09 oerjan: dym canonical? 19:24:29 s//al/ 19:25:08 the interplay between deterministic computation and nondeterministic computation leads you going in circles. deterministic MoCs can simulate nondeterministic MoCs by enumerating all branches, while nondeterministic MoCs take deterministic MoCs as special cases. 19:27:13 . o O ( also any set that contains both 42 and 666 is trying too hard ) 19:27:39 so if we say that you need a nondeterministic MoC to "properly" represent unordered, unique collections.. well, there's that problem of uniqueness. 19:28:09 nondeterminism gets you unordered collections, but you still have a non-zero algorithmic cost to determine uniqueness. 19:28:36 as in, "I need to check my with my collection every time I do something that may endanger the fact that the elements are unique." 19:29:00 that may give some credence towards multisets. 19:29:32 . o O ( snowflake-based computing ) 19:30:41 quantum sorting: shuffle your list based on the outcome of reading a qubit; destroy the universe if the list is not sorted. 19:31:36 destroying the universe is not in BQP hth 19:31:46 this is, of course, a slightly more radical version of quantum suicide. 19:32:05 (except for solipsists) 19:35:00 . o O ( noone pointed out that I better use at least ceil(log_2(n!)) qubits ) 19:37:05 ;) 19:45:39 so multisets may actually be a perfectly sound foundation. they only require a lack of ordering. 19:47:17 nah, multisets are useless 19:47:27 shots fired. :P 19:50:09 b_jonas: I have plenty of uses for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiset_ordering 19:52:41 so ordered, non-unique: lists/trees, etc. unordered, non-unique: multisets. ordered, unique: ???. unordered, unique: sets. 19:55:02 (though it may be kind of telling that both definitions come from term rewriting people (though Oppen may have been (or is?) more of a first-order theorem proving person)) 19:57:07 I guess I'm also biased towards ordered collections as a basis as well because in our universe, there always exists a "canonical ordering" for at least one thing. 19:57:31 time kinda ensures that. 19:59:30 like I can say "I don't have an ordering for this", but to do anything, you need an ordering. 20:00:24 you can construct an ordering, just like you can construct an ordered pair from sets. 20:06:53 be back soon. ttyl. o/ 20:11:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:14:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:30:42 From training logs: "New: communist-manufactured pen" 20:31:13 "As [Gorbachev] went to sign into effect the dissolution of the Soviet Union, his communist-manufactured pen did not work, and he had to borrow a working pen from the CNN camera crew who were filming the event." 20:31:21 fizzie: that's like the urban legand about the million dollar pen that can write in a zero-gravity environment? 20:31:29 developed by NASA 20:31:38 ah 20:31:40 that's even better 20:32:20 "Alongside St John Paul II, President Reagan and our own Margaret Thatcher, we were instrumental in resisting totalitarianism and inspiring the captive peoples of Europe to stand up against their communist overlords. At the same time, the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Home Secretary were going on motorbike tours of East Germany." 20:33:06 (Unfortunately the models I've gotten out of this so far haven't sounded very good.) 20:33:21 are you training fungot or some new thing? 20:33:21 b_jonas: particular currency. each office, the assessor in the scorekeepor's announcement, that is not prohibited or regulated by a 20:33:40 Training a complementary "ukparl" style for fungot, yes. 20:33:40 fizzie: ( -o) when, during agora's birthday is defined in the number of rules is decided by the 20:33:48 nice 20:34:10 do you want to train a bibul style? 20:35:38 I've tried some bible variants, I don't think I put any online. 20:37:06 `bibul 20:37:07 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bibul: not found 20:37:11 `? bibul 20:37:11 hmm 20:37:12 bibul? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:37:21 wasn't there someting in hackego for that? 20:45:38 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot. 20:45:39 fungot`: can you say something about resilience? 20:45:40 int-e: srfi-67 seems to be working 20:45:52 ^style 20:45:52 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 20:45:54 ^style ukparl 20:45:54 Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) 20:46:02 fungot: How about that brexit then? 20:46:02 fizzie: and of any information capable of being viewed as important, the groceries code statutory? under the current uk system at the same in the hon. and learned friend the member for nottingham north ( mr allen) and the hon. and learned friend the member for west dorset, to many colleagues, the schools. 20:46:24 Surprisingly, there are other topics. 20:46:37 fungot: fnord? 20:46:37 int-e: that, of the fnord fr fnord, or kfw, sits, that what the hon. member, one surveyor, and my fnord, the hon. and learned friend, in the sense of a government lurching from one crisis to another: the nuclear deal, the billions to the uk over the us, the arab world, and the work of the house. 20:46:46 .. 20:46:52 That wasn't planned. 20:47:08 * int-e is feeling lucky. 20:48:00 the hon. and learned friend the member fungot makes more meaningful statements than some hon. and learn friend members of the parliament 20:48:00 b_jonas: the european union 20:48:02 (but not lucky enough to try that again) 20:48:04 The Perl script I have can take a pre-set initial context, which is nice if you'd like fungot to make a statement on a particular topic. 20:48:04 fizzie: is the hon. member of this house, including any concerns. from the time, 20:48:27 "the challenge for brexit is a wee step behind, as i very much want that unintended consequence?" 20:48:43 good one 20:48:57 but a tad too honest, I'd say 20:49:08 fungot: teeth? 20:49:08 int-e: my hon. and learned friend, particularly for the very youngest. i predict, and to those of the many fnord journalists, of parliamentarians. 20:49:36 fungot: seriously, no brexit at all? 20:49:37 int-e: i was a member, for the opportunity to get 20:50:00 fungot: will you be more successful than Theresa May in convincing Ireland to quit the EU? 20:50:00 b_jonas: at the time, given the minister a very specific issue, and that over 500 other firms, the third party, the sale of fnord to fnord alone, and would be the same government that schools, and sports organisations 20:50:03 fungot: well I suppose there are other topics 20:50:03 int-e: to fnord part of the uk, through the media, the radio, the importance of an independent uk trade policy. it is the time for the government to continuing the discussion with the fnord stakeholders. 20:50:30 that is right, hon. and learned friend 20:50:42 fizzie: is there a way for you to check whether "brexit" made it into the word list? 20:50:56 the sale of... yeah 20:52:35 int-e: It must've been, otherwise the script for that brexit statement would've complained. 20:53:19 ah, sorry. I missed the point of that quote. 20:53:20 On the sorted unigram list, it's somewhere around rank 240, between "doing" and "home". 20:53:39 not bad 20:56:09 Top 500 most common tokens: https://zem.fi/tmp/top500.txt 20:56:21 what is the opinion of my hon. and learened friedn fungot ofabout brexit? 20:56:21 b_jonas: in that case, the hon. member, yet that is the only data that includes additional high-value investment, specifically the right point 20:58:06 fizzie: so there are more closing parentheses than opening parentheses? fun.... 20:58:39 int-e: sure. unmatched opening parenthesis aren't very useful, but unmatched closing parenthesis can be used like 20:58:44 #define F G( 20:59:07 #define G(0) 0,F 20:59:10 no wait 20:59:12 dunno 20:59:27 there's some C preprocessor magic that uses lists separated by closing parenthesis anyway 21:00:07 b_jonas: and how does that connect with transcripts from the UK parliament? 21:00:22 not at all probably 21:00:45 int-e: There might be some preprocessing issues there. 21:01:58 Just counting '(' and ')' in the source XML files, there are 78166 (s and 78170 )s. 21:02:01 hmm, number one: 324 -3.60044 1 -0.601376 21:02:28 well that seems close enough :) 21:02:48 Some of those parentheses may have gotten attached to words, I think there's some known issues about consecutive punctuation. 21:03:04 unlikely that "their" and "who" are both squeezed between these two numbers. 21:03:26 (oh...) 21:03:39 we should start addressing people on esoteric "my hon. and learned friend" 21:03:51 wow, "church" didn't make the list 21:04:03 `welcome b_jonas 21:04:06 b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 21:04:22 b_jonas: there's a chance for you to do that :P 21:06:42 but it sounds condescending to me... so if I get a vote on this I'm against it. 21:08:54 ok 21:14:32 -!- MDude has joined. 21:14:56 oh 21:25:31 fungot: so what you're saying is that for those two years, the hon. friends carefully avoided discussing the mess? 21:25:31 oerjan: is the hon. member of this house, and the pay of the chief executive, but consequently her working years shows the success, or seeking to transfer the european law, 21:26:45 i have this feeling there may be a bit heavy line breaking 21:28:30 is this based on transcriptions from the house of commons? 21:28:35 ^style 21:28:35 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube 21:29:04 ^style ukparl 21:29:04 Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) 21:29:58 good question, hmm, I'd hope that this includes both houses? 21:30:29 probably 21:30:41 but the house of commons is the one with the more lively discussions I think 21:30:53 fungot: so how do you feel about a no-deal brexit 21:30:53 Luciole: government should agree to and put to the people in a vote. he was never told he is pursuing his interest, to the rightful role 21:31:47 Luciole: http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html seems to be what fizzie used, and it mentions both houses. 21:31:50 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:31:57 ah 21:33:55 fungot: yeah, my hon. and learned friend, that part is easy, but what shall the question of the vote be? depending on the question, we'll get entirely complimentary outcomes 21:33:55 b_jonas: i, for one, and i have to be frank, the last 12 years. the canadian fnord food, given the secretary of fnord members, and to our way of life, 21:35:04 well, at least you are frank, my hon. and learned friend 21:35:23 int-e: do you also object against calling fungot my hon. and learned friend? 21:35:23 b_jonas: this was the first time, the hon. member. a damaged and disrupted fnord by lone fathers, and should try to ensure, and to all the people. 21:35:39 yes. it's always the first time. good excuse. 21:35:45 you go scott free just this one time. 21:36:27 b_jonas: I don't mind addressing fungot in a condescending way 21:36:27 int-e: there is, to a degree, the nursing and midwifery council, the coroners and justice act 2009 21:36:36 b_jonas: I think it has done quite enough to deserve it ;) 21:37:04 `? fungot 21:37:04 int-e: we, of course, of the north-east. it is my great pleasure to have the opportunity. 21:37:05 fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 21:40:54 Luciole: It's from Commons, I think. 21:41:15 Or, no, maybe both. 21:41:32 http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html "Debates (Commons), Debates (Lords), Westminster Hall" 21:42:30 I trained on the scrapedxml/debates/debates*.xml files, from 2016 June to present day. 21:43:08 oh no! I think she's a witch! 21:43:34 I think that's "Commons main chamber debates" only. 21:46:43 I think for Lords I would've needed to look in the lordspages/daylord*.xml files. 21:50:26 oerjan: By the way, the lines ending in a comma are likely because the transcripts put all quotes in their own separate

element. 21:50:34

Hyde also said that as a housing provider, it needed to

21:50:37

“make efficient use of its income to ensure we are able to prioritise building more homes to help address the housing crisis”,

21:50:41

which meant it had to make difficult choices about what additional services it continued to fund and what it stopped.

21:51:28 Other than that treatment of quotes, the

element seemed like a logical unit for fungotting. The full elements (which is whenever the speaker changes) are pretty long. 21:51:28 fizzie: as a new member, and i can only conclude, therefore, the government have 22:07:23 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:10:32 hmm, I wish DeepMind would stop saying things like "AlphaZero learned Chess in 9 hours"... and rather say "Alpha Zero learned chess using 20MWh of electricity" 22:11:04 they said it once 22:11:42 (not sure what the real number is, but it should be in that ballpark) 22:12:01 (then arranged for every reader to repeat it a billion times) 22:12:16 I try to figure out how to best implement the batch notification in my Netsubscribe implementation. I thought to use a SQL table to keep track of what to do (so that if it fails once, you can try again later, by remembering where you left off) 22:12:38 -!- imode has joined. 22:12:38 LKoen: they have two whitepapers stating this and a number of press releases... so the number is larger than one. 22:13:17 Do you have some ideas? 22:13:50 I am not sure exactly what to put in this table; I tried to figure out but then decided it might not do and try to think of something else. Or is there a better way? 22:14:07 oh no! I think she's a witch! <-- wat 22:14:37 yeet. 22:16:58 fun related number: The human brain consumes about 175kWh a year (assuming 20W, which estimate is backed by the Internet (tm)). 22:20:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:21:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:22:02 oerjan: well, she floats on water 22:22:08 sorry no 22:22:13 I don't want to start quoting Monty Python 22:22:17 that rarely leads to anything good 22:23:00 I'm actually just listening to Hansel und Gretel, the opera, and it's about witches 22:25:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:32:02 . o O ( grand surprise ) 22:32:18 though, actually, plural? 22:33:14 my hon. and learned friend fungot, Ki tett itt csontból, húsból törvényt? 22:33:15 b_jonas: on the hon. and learned friend the member for manchester, gorton, and also, i have to some of the people i have been seeing the build-up. seven of the new state pension, the member keeps it uppermost in the prime of our life, and the government and the government of the uk that the government avoid the failings of the uk energy. more have come to the house to do the same is not the will, respect the 62% who were to ben 22:33:18 of course there's the movie... Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters 22:35:31 I see you like the government a lot 22:44:56 my hon. and learned friend fungot, Kopasszák le fejüket a hegyek, / s tegyék lábadhoz most nyírt erdeik? / Folyását a folyó fordítsa meg? / Borítsa búza vadon vidékeid? 22:44:56 b_jonas: a new one, might feel that the title, the new uk government funding, the challenge, and the public, 22:45:06 it is a challenge, yes 23:20:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:28:48 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:30:57 -!- nchambers has joined. 2018-12-16: 00:12:37 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:13:15 -!- tromp has joined. 00:16:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:35:10 I have started with the new subscription schema in netsubsc; so far there is a SUBSCRIBERS table and a SUBSCRIBE_USERS table. Later probably should be added BATCH and NOTIFIED tables. What are you thinking of this? 00:36:27 I have made a tag !mtgidea@zzo38computer.org for ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards and variants; once subscriptions are implemented then I might post messages using that. If you are interested, you can subscribe too 00:43:57 -!- newbie has joined. 00:45:43 -!- newbie19 has joined. 00:45:45 -!- newbie19 has quit (Client Quit). 00:46:53 -!- Essadon has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:48:33 -!- newbie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:50:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 01:15:35 [[Talk:???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58739&oldid=43890 * Only Onion * (+368) 01:31:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:32:05 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:48:48 -!- nchambers has joined. 03:20:12 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:26:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:28:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:54:48 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 04:01:24 -!- shachaf has joined. 04:15:26 Do you like my specification of "xpMC" chunk of PNG files? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/xpMC That gives you the ability of XPM palettes in PNG files too. 04:34:42 -!- nchambers has joined. 04:44:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:13:09 [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58740&oldid=58722 * Ais523 * (+371) /* High Rise languages */ current line of thought: we may be able to avoid interleaving in counter machine implementations when using a geometric sequence + a constant offset 05:25:12 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 05:25:13 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:30:29 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:30:29 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:33:09 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 05:33:09 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:01:52 -!- FreeFull has quit. 08:00:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:00:14 -!- tromp has joined. 08:05:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:10:35 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 08:10:45 -!- ATMunn has joined. 08:19:04 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:21:32 -!- nfd has joined. 08:23:54 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:32:22 -!- \x01VERSION\x01 has changed nick to grumble. 09:13:41 This textbook has an exercise that is essentially "Prove Fractran turing complete" 09:15:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:21:36 (the textbook is Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang, and it mentions Fractran by name) 10:26:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:48:51 -!- Essadon has joined. 11:49:09 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 11:49:34 -!- Essadon has joined. 11:53:21 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 12:11:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:05:08 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:27:51 -!- b_jonas has joined. 15:25:09 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:28:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:28:14 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 16:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:38:40 my honourable friend fungot, are you a lawyer or a member of the privy council? 16:38:40 oerjan: the hon. and learned friend the member for new forest east, gedling, and of many others, to be a shortfall of the ad-hoc way 16:43:37 wow, a giant eyeball. http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/ 16:43:39 um 16:43:45 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/ 16:43:46 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas 16:43:48 no wait 16:43:49 darn 16:43:59 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html 16:44:00 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html: b_jonas 16:44:11 oerjan: it's "my hon. and learned friend" 16:44:31 ah yes, my hon. and learned friend fungot has just showed you that 16:44:31 b_jonas: hon. and hon. and right hon. friends the member for birmingham, yardley, i do, i have a very high number, albeit the most support. labour wishes these opportunities, the countries that we have been to the house of the many hon. government and the board, that the deadline, that only in the la fnord, which commemorates the contribution to the debate, 16:44:44 my right honourable, gallant, learned and reverent friend fungot, what is your correct addressing style? 16:44:44 oerjan: our other priority homeless the local services that we have as a member of the eu, 16:50:58 b_jonas: it's a bit more complicated http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/82149.stm 17:01:00 oerjan: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1330.html 17:07:19 windows wants a reboot for the third time this month... 17:08:10 oerjan: hmm, that is informative. but how do you address the whole chamber, such as at the start of a speech? 17:09:11 b_jonas: i dunno, ask fizzie to include some lord speeches hth 17:09:26 The addressing are simpler in Hungary because the aristocratic titles are generally no longer used 17:09:33 to avoid being caught out by this, i carefully set my "activity period" to cover all the hours i'm awake, which is somewhat awkward with an unstable sleeping rhythm. 17:12:10 in norway, aristocracy was abolished back in the 19th century 17:12:30 Also since 1989, people usually no longer call each other their comrades or their tovariŝ 17:15:16 but it is true that politicians do use very different styles when they speak in the parliament versus amongst their party. that becomes very obvious if you hear the speeches of Mr Orbán in both cases 17:16:56 wait what? 17:17:38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnwfwXnNiQ says that "you can only physically push one of the direction buttons at a time" on the NES controller 17:17:43 that's not true, is it? 17:17:49 I think you can push two diagonally 17:18:35 but it's strange that he says that, because obviously he's played the NES a lot and has a controller right in his hand to test 17:21:25 shocking 17:22:03 nah, it's only five volts and not much current 17:22:13 he didn't disassemble the CRT in that video 17:49:29 Although he does explain in one video how Commodore 64 power units have an annoying bug where sometimes they start to supply much higher voltage to the motherboard than usual, and that can fry multiple chips on the board before you notice that anything is wrong. 17:58:52 b_jonas: "My Lords, --" is how they always seem to start. 17:59:15 And it's "the noble Lord" when referring to the previous speaker. 18:00:03 Sometimes "my noble friend". 18:00:54 aha 18:02:04 The Commons speeches don't seem to have any formulaic start, at least these days. 18:05:56 fizzie: I see 18:06:40 I think in the parliament of Hungary, the formulaic start is or used to be "Tisztelt ház, tisztelt elnök úr, tisztelt miniszterek!" but that could have changed since 18:16:09 obviously I could check, since most of the parliament stuff is public and available on the internet, but I don't much care 18:35:01 -!- imode has joined. 18:37:33 so I found a paper that actually diagrams a replacement for set theory using lists. 18:37:47 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231884964_An_axiomatic_theory_of_well-orderings 18:38:35 it pretty much phrases everything I've said here and other places, so I'm a happy lad. the results are nice in that you still have the same expressive power as ZFC but you get a lot of things for free. 19:01:43 `unidecode ⏏ 19:01:44 ​[U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL] 19:14:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:12 imode: does it give draft proofs for that, as in, implementing ZFC from that theory and backwards? 19:20:24 yup. 19:20:46 not sure if I can link any sci-hub stuff here but it's in there. 19:21:33 found it and read it at like 2 AM this morning on my phone lmao. 19:22:02 good 19:22:29 good to know that someone worked the details out 19:22:52 I'm quite happy with it, as I had a lot of the conclusions/work in that paper worked out in a notefile. 19:23:00 now all I need is a logic! 19:23:31 no no 19:24:02 I'd like to hear a bit more details. does that book tell about an implementation of the real numbers based on that system? 19:24:22 and if so, is it the equivalence classes of cauchy sequences of reals? 19:26:27 imode: why couldn't you link here? 19:27:15 sci-hub is a method for circumventing paywalls regarding journals, I don't know if that's covered under piracy (I assume it is). 19:27:26 so I'm playing it safe. 19:27:30 the paper is behind a paywall. 19:27:32 imode: yes, but... oh whatever you want 19:27:42 * imode shrugs. 19:27:43 https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/S1755020310000390 19:27:47 anyway, I don't want to read this book now 19:27:52 so I'm asking you since you've already read it 19:28:51 they don't cover the reals. their approach is showing an axiom mapping from ZFC to their theory. 19:29:04 hmm 19:29:17 do they at least cover natural numbers? 19:30:15 seems to be not. they get all the way up through ordered pairs, though. nats are trivially constructable early on in the paper. 19:30:30 ok 19:30:45 the reasoning path is pretty much "all this stuff is trivially derivable, we're giving justifications for the axioms and showing how you can replace your's with these and get the same results for the hard stuff." 19:30:55 yeah 19:31:26 but it'd be more interesting if they also shown that some things get simpler that way 19:31:37 while some other things may get uglier of course 20:08:18 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58741&oldid=58512 * DMC * (+6) 20:21:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:23:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:21:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:35:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:35:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 21:35:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:35:34 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:47:11 Why the ace of money doesn't resembles money it looks like a bird with two heads? 21:53:01 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:56:50 -!- ChatMan has joined. 21:57:00 -!- ChatMan has changed nick to ChattingMan. 21:59:35 Do you mean the ace of coins? 21:59:41 Yes 22:02:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:03:45 -!- ChattingMan has quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 22:16:54 zzo38: well, a lot of coins have a bird on it, and coins in Austria or Germany may even have a two-headed Imperial bird that's supposed to be an eagle 22:17:03 although it doesn't always look like an eagle 22:17:39 we have, I think, two common and one rare coin wity a bird on it right now in Hungary, though none of them are two headed 22:18:06 and then there's all the overused Athena/Athene/owl symbolism everywhere 22:18:30 too many things are named of Athena, people should really start to use different mythological names 22:22:26 Yes, you can perhaps select different pantheons 22:22:47 or just different figures from Greek and Roman mythology if you want 22:22:56 Yes, you can do that too 22:26:05 `? athene 22:26:05 `? athena 22:26:07 athene? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:26:08 athena? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:26:09 `? pallas 22:26:10 pallas? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:26:11 hmm 22:53:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:26:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:37:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 23:38:53 seems to me that anything that involves graph-based computing pretty much boils down to two methods of graph rewriting: traversals and pattern matching. 23:42:18 what I'd like to see is some sort of cellular automaton thingy that is on a "grid" background that's in the Euc plane and is isometric if you look at it from far enough 23:44:11 perhaps you could start from a Voronoi thingy like http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html and then make it more event or something 23:45:27 or maybe one of those random disk packing things with relaxation where they end up having lots of uneven grid parts 2018-12-17: 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:22 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:00:24 ] 4^5 00:00:31 j-bot: 4^5 00:00:32 b_jonas: 1024 00:00:37 whatever is its short invocation 00:00:40 ) 4^5 00:03:02 [ 4^5 00:03:03 b_jonas: 1024 00:03:04 ( 4^5 00:04:02 what's the graph analogue of the lambda calculus, I wonder. I know what it means to apply a term tree to another term tree (like function application), but I don't know of something like that for arbitrary graphs. 00:09:33 reason I'm wondering is because I'm looking for a model of computation that closely resembles some "natural" form of knowledge, and graphs are able to represent knowledge pretty easily via the semantic network concept. 00:17:15 though I'm open to other forms of knowledge representation... graphs get weird. 00:22:01 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 00:52:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:52:50 -!- tromp has joined. 01:03:21 maybe graph grammars will point me in the right direction.. 01:07:53 there's an internal struggle in me. on the one hand, I want a graph-based model of computation that features no variables that I can use to encode knowledge and model stuff. on the other hand, I acknowledge that anything that looks like it will probably look like some variant of combinatory logic. 01:09:17 imode: you do know about Eodermdrone. although that does contain variables, namely captures 01:11:24 yeah... I thought "well, what if we could take graphs and "apply them" to other graphs to derive new graphs according to some rules." but that'd just lead to combinators, with your "base graph" and the method of combining two graphs being two combinators, and any given graph is just a different set of applications. 01:13:41 like it'd be nice to take, for example, some subgraphs encoding facts, and another subgraph encoding some set of derivation rules, mash 'em together and get a set of derived facts. 01:13:55 but the actual structure of those applications is combinatoric. 01:30:20 perhaps I have to accept that everything reduces to some combinator set. 01:52:54 curry was a genius. 02:04:48 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:06:57 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:07:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:50:51 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:52:16 -!- nchambers has joined. 03:01:55 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:22:48 Problem: Does a class of graph grammars exist such that each grammar does not admit free or bound variables on either the Left-Hand Side or Right-Hand Side and is also Turing Complete? 03:28:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:29:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:26:45 [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58742&oldid=55875 * Chris Pressey * (-23) No one has complained, which means the proof must be okay, that's how it works right? 04:40:47 -!- nodist has joined. 04:45:25 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58743&oldid=55865 * Chris Pressey * (+814) Sketch of computable real making sub-TC language into TC 04:47:01 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:09:44 @metar lowi 05:09:45 LOWI 170450Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW007 BKN200 M04/M05 Q1018 R08/19//95 NOSIG 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:34:50 -!- hexfive has joined. 05:34:53 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 05:56:37 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:57:26 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:57:39 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:59:21 -!- moony has joined. 06:02:34 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 06:02:42 -!- ATMunn has joined. 06:18:27 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:23:19 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:13:58 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 08:01:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:22:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:25:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:25:17 -!- tromp has joined. 08:25:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:40:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:46:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:02:36 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:19:34 -!- salpynx has joined. 09:23:37 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:24:01 imode: re. graph grammers, I was wondering if L-systems are applicable to your search? I was recently trying to find out the relationship between Lsystems and cellular automata, and there are numerous papers not readily readable on the subject, I couldn't find a straight answer. I think they can be used to implement automata rules 09:24:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:25:16 searching just now how L-systems relate to graphs I found this interesting book chapter of L-systems, graphs, and Super Mario Bros level design: http://pcgbook.com/wp-content/uploads/chapter05.pdf 09:50:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:54:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:55:24 -!- tromp has joined. 10:13:28 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:13:44 -!- tromp has joined. 10:59:05 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:43:37 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:57:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:01:03 [[Hieroglyphic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58744&oldid=46401 * Salpynx * (+849) format command list 12:11:39 [[Hieroglyphic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58745&oldid=58744 * Salpynx * (+152) attempt to clarify commands based on example usage 12:26:50 [[Your Pong May Minsky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58746&oldid=58742 * Chris Pressey * (+18) 12:28:51 [[Hieroglyphic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58747&oldid=58745 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Syntax */ correct diacritic 13:36:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:00:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:21:02 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:50:21 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:09:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:12:03 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:29:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:30:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:36:24 -!- MDude has joined. 15:52:46 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 15:56:19 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:58:02 -!- Essadon has joined. 16:05:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:20:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:20:37 -!- tromp has joined. 16:22:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:22:25 -!- tromp has joined. 16:40:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 16:40:34 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:40:51 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:48:24 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:50:53 [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58748&oldid=55880 * Chris Pressey * (+519) /* Continuous waterfalls */ 17:04:22 [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58749&oldid=58748 * Chris Pressey * (+1) /* Continuous waterfalls */ 17:34:20 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 18:00:45 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:08:11 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:13:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:24:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:43:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 18:43:25 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:44:58 -!- tromp has joined. 18:47:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:53:37 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:03:01 -!- imode has joined. 19:07:54 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 19:08:56 -!- arseniiv has joined. 19:14:23 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 19:14:31 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:19:22 `olist 1149 19:19:24 olist 1149: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 19:21:39 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:35:18 -!- sleepnap has joined. 20:07:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 20:07:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 20:57:31 makefile:84: *** unterminated variable reference. Stop. 20:57:44 Augh 20:58:47 I hate how makefile syntax and bash syntax interact in unhelpful ways 20:59:33 does make really need to use $ for its variable sigil? 21:00:08 if make used say : or something then there would be no issue 21:46:09 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:57:04 -!- Lymia has joined. 22:00:07 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:22:22 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:27:17 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:36:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:42:34 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:10:42 `? 25770 23:10:44 25770? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:13:43 `? 25772 23:13:44 25772? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:13:44 `? 25771 23:13:45 25771? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:13:53 `? 25773 23:13:54 25773? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:14:11 ZSTTE 23:19:19 -!- imode has joined. 23:42:51 #!/usr/bin/perl -CS 23:42:51 use utf8; 23:42:52 print chr(0x2571+int(rand(2))) while 1; 23:51:57 is that the maze drawer. 23:57:07 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58750&oldid=58743 * Ais523 * (+945) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ r to Chris Pressey: a concrete example of a language with this property 23:58:04 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:58:20 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58751&oldid=58750 * Ais523 * (+110) clarify where my reply is going, rather than dumping a bunch of statements with no context 2018-12-18: 00:10:10 no, my hon. and learned friend fungot, I expect you to die 00:10:10 b_jonas: it is on that that the government have, the procedure is the same. 00:18:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:19:24 -!- Rudolph has joined. 00:35:29 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:44:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:50 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:43 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:06:59 -!- Rudolph has joined. 01:24:23 Now I implemented the + and - requests of Netsubscribe at least, although it isn't so useful because notifications are not yet implemented. Do you like this? 01:29:36 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:35:30 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 01:57:48 -!- Rudolph has joined. 02:04:52 -!- user24 has joined. 02:06:45 -!- user24 has quit (Client Quit). 02:24:27 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:35:07 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: sprocklem). 02:35:54 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:41:19 -!- Rudolph has joined. 02:51:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 02:52:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:53:59 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 03:10:15 I'm totally sold on combinators. Curry's work, Backus' FP, Iverson's APL and J.. they're all tied together by algebra, each language forming an algebra of programs. 03:11:24 Does quantum entanglement that joins stuff being extending backward in time from the point of view of both experimenters? To me it would seem like that, rather than affecting the other one "instantly", like they say it is. 03:12:01 https://www.quora.com/Does-Bohmian-mechanics-explain-entanglement 03:17:49 It looks like difference to what I mentioned. 03:26:56 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:29:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:30:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:17:21 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:25:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:26:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:27:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:33:55 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:11:16 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:37:36 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 06:39:47 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:47:37 -!- Rudolph has joined. 07:19:32 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:07:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:12:00 -!- Rudolph has joined. 08:39:30 -!- amokavarshan has joined. 08:39:56 hi 08:40:10 need help in a program 08:42:35 need help in a program 08:59:47 What help in what program? 09:01:11 zzo38, i solved it before you asked but anyway thanks for asking 09:02:48 zzo38, are you there 09:03:10 Am I where? 09:05:28 http://dpaste.com/1P7FNJT ; why a space is need before %c in scanf to get the program work 09:06:59 Perhaps because of a line break after each line that you have to consume. 09:07:34 oh 09:14:14 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:14:22 zzo38, 09:35:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:46:18 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:47:07 [[Analog Synth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (+4671) information density joke language with multi-interpreter 09:48:18 [[Analog Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58753&oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (-5) 09:53:02 -!- amokavarshan has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:01:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:01:51 -!- tromp has joined. 10:13:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:13:30 -!- tromp has joined. 10:29:49 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:48:27 -!- Rudolph has joined. 10:53:22 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:25:01 -!- Rudolph has joined. 11:57:10 -!- Rudolph has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:05:30 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58754&oldid=58751 * Chris Pressey * (+1036) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ 13:02:05 -!- Rudolph has joined. 14:27:18 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:38:51 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:50:11 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:03:52 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 15:31:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:31:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:58:32 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:43:29 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:44:18 `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/ 19:44:19 ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/: b_jonas 19:52:50 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:11:43 https://i.redd.it/nx4xu1y9r0521.jpg 20:31:18 -!- imode has joined. 20:42:31 are there any resources out there on building cyclic graphs from collections of trees? 20:44:09 haskell might have something to say about that. 21:02:47 -!- salpynx has joined. 21:05:29 Based on the recent Waterfall Model language activity, I have thought up a "serious" and hopefully interesting variant stemming from the silly title variation "Your Mince may Pong" (punning on "Your Pong May Minsky", clever n-dimensional bouncing ball equivalent). 21:05:46 It is a biological E-Coli style bacterial simulation of the Waterfall mechanics. Instead of Waterclocks, there are n bacterial strains that have a maximum population density in their environment. Once the maximum density is reached, a strain's growth rate halts due to passive competitive pressures. 21:06:01 The population becomes stressed, and this triggers a specialized antibiotic metabolites ("interference competition mode") which is a cocktail of antibiotic substances that different strains have differing weaknesses to. The populations of all strains reduce by differing amounts, and then further growth can occur. 21:06:43 I believe this is equivalent to the Waterfall Model mechanics. 21:07:32 how would one go about generating a maze with / and \ walls such that there is a start point at the top and an end at the bottom, no points are disconnected from the start and end points, and the route from the start to the end is not obvious 21:10:41 Initially I conceived the "interference competition mode" to reduce the populations being triggered suddenly, but I wonder if the antibiotic substances could be released continuously and change growth rates - would that be equivalent, or does the "water top up" need to be sudden and discreet? 21:17:48 oren: using whatever algorithm http://www.mazegenerator.net/ uses for a square maze, and rotate by 45°? Maybe I'm missing something, but the angled walls don't change the problem. You'll just end up with a diamond shaped maze, which I think is what you are specifying? 21:29:58 neat resource: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm#perfect via wiki page on " Maze generation algorithm" 21:34:21 -!- FreeFull has quit. 22:04:28 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:19:31 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:27:52 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 22:30:56 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:34:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:36:15 wait what? 22:36:22 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/ 22:36:23 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas 22:36:39 no argh 22:36:47 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html 22:36:47 darn 22:36:47 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html: b_jonas 22:37:52 imode: building cyclic graphs from collections of trees => um, I think there was some crazy conjecture, with special cases proved, about getting complete digraphs as disjoint unions of several trees or stuff like that 22:37:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:38:05 maybe it wasn't just tournaments, I'm not sure 22:38:14 but definitely involving disjoint union of trees 22:38:46 imode: is that the kind of thing you're looking for? 22:39:51 yes! 22:40:08 I'll log that down and look it up, thank you! :D 22:40:08 salpynx: but there's already an esoteric language with "Your Minsky" in its name. do you really want another one? 22:40:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:41:05 imode: hmm, I'll have to look up the exact reference too then. I think I heared it on a conference, so I'll have to look it up in a conference volume that I have left in my parens' house. 22:41:24 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:41:45 but then you'll probably find some references to such things elsewhere 22:42:37 anything works, at your leisure of course. :) 22:42:40 do you think the Bobadventures guy will be able to keep a regular update schedule for this short adventure by the way? 22:43:17 imode: yeah, I'll have to write a note to myself, I'll be in their apartment in a few days but I'll probably forget to grab that conference volume. 22:43:39 that's alright, you've at least provided me some search terms. :) 22:44:17 that reminds me, I shouldn't forget to take the exercise ball pump to the office tomorrow. I'll put it in my backpack now. 22:46:23 salpynx: that's the random diagonals kind of maze. there's a more interesting maze that I have ported to an IRC-based interpreter that would print more than one line at some point. 22:47:36 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 this maze generator. I was thinking about that, um, recently, because if I ever make that esolang that I wanted, then I should port this maze generator to it as the main example program 22:48:10 it's a nice full example, because it requires you to do nontrivial random accesses to an array, and nontrivial arithmetic 22:48:21 well, multiple arrays, but still 22:48:52 I mean Consumer society by "that esolang that I wanted" 22:49:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:50:11 oh hello ais523 22:51:53 hi 22:53:48 apparently salpynx mentioned something with Your ... Minsky, but I don't really understand what it has to do with Minsky 22:54:21 b_jonas: it's a change-of-viewpoint of The Waterfall Model 22:57:38 ah I see! so he wants a reinterpretation of Waterfall Model 22:57:43 makes sense 22:59:14 as in, a reflavoring of the same abstract model 23:06:01 -!- tromp has quit. 23:11:09 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:14:22 b_jonas: Yes, I have been following the Waterfall Model chat on the talk page of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Your_Pong_May_Minsky and playing with the Waterfall Model interactive tutorial recently, and wrote an interpreter for it, so I am steeped in Waterfall Model ATM. Forgot that maybe not everyone is following the same discussions :) 23:17:05 ais523: Thank you for that language, it is really neat and I think you have hit your goal of making it easy to implement in awkward langauges. I had been struggling for a while to proove universality of my language ΙΧΘΥΣ, and was able to come up with a conversion relatively easily 23:17:56 the more I study The Waterall Model the more fundamental it seems, somehow 23:18:04 The interactive tutorial + documentation is very nice too, and fun to play with. 23:18:08 I've been using it for TCness proofs too 23:18:32 I need to write more of the tutorial at some point; I got held up by my own lack of skill (I can't teach something I don't know myself) 23:18:49 lol "Improvement: Move the left context to be displayed on the left" 23:19:30 "current behaviour: left context is displayed ot the right" 23:19:39 ais523: how does it seem fundamental? 23:20:21 imode: most systems at a similar level of abstraction compile into it easily 23:20:31 that is, low-powered counter machines 23:20:46 I had been working on (again starting from a silly joke) analog computing versions of esolangs, and had a version of `+` and '+-` outputting voltages to an oscilloscope... I had a capacitor discharging and realised if I could trigger tops ups to other caps, that would be Waterfall Model 23:21:32 I need to find some existing oscillator circuits to borrow some ideas from, but I think it should be possible, and that give you the continuous model 23:22:42 ais523: what's the semantics of the model? I can't parse the wiki page so well right now. 23:23:14 imode: you have X counters, they all decrease at a steady rate (discretely or continuously), when one of them hits 0 then every counter is increased by a specified amount depending on which counter hit 0 23:23:25 imode: following the external resource link gives a good description 23:23:38 so a program could say, say, "when counter 1 hits 0, increase it by 3, and counter 2 by 5" 23:24:22 wow, that solves the problem of checking a particular counter for zero. you have it built-in.. 23:24:41 salpynx: "wasy to implement in awkward languages" => but you don't mean that you'll actually want to implement bignum precision in bacterial colonies, that's just flavor, right? 23:24:46 so 1 -> 1:3, 2:5, etc. 23:25:02 right 23:25:19 programs are typically written as a matrix, the cell at (x, y) shows how much counter y increases when counter x zeroes 23:25:33 that is.. wild. 23:25:58 (there's also a column 0 showing the initial values, and a row 0 to make it easier to parse) 23:26:19 ais523: right, low-powered counter machines with no size limit on their integers. it won't help much with machines where I want to manipulate symbols and don't want an exponential slowdown 23:26:42 I still find it difficult to process how it is Turing complete, but it does seem surprisingly powerful. 23:26:57 b_jonas: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simpler_Subskin? 23:27:03 for machines where you have to use counters, and don't mind one level of exponential slowdown, there I can understand that you want to use it for turing completeness proof 23:27:14 iirc any 2 counter machine is TC if you allow unbounded space for integers. 23:27:19 or really natural numbers. 23:27:20 ais523: by the way, have you given some reasonable upper bound for how many clocks you need for TC? 23:27:28 imode: not quite, you need to handle the control flow somehow 23:27:37 2 counters + arbitrary control flow is TC, the control flow can sometimes be complex though 23:27:38 with integer numbers only in the program 23:27:39 ais523: true, but that can be a single operation. 23:27:57 b_jonas: I've spent weeks trying to figure it out, including recently 23:28:07 regarding my biological simulation idea, I'd love it if there were bacteria that behave that way (I'm no biologist, but I tried to use real bacterial concepts), that would make a possibly real biological computer 23:28:11 my current guess is somewhere in the 9/10 range 23:28:22 imode: for Minsky machines, 2 counter is enough for double-exponential slowdown, 3 counters for single-exponential slowdown turing completeness, and you don't get better than that with a larger number of counters 23:28:31 well, at least not better than exponential 23:28:38 but Waterfall model is much more restricted 23:28:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 23:28:50 I'll stick with combinatory logic lol. 23:28:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:29:04 9..10 range? I'll be interested to see that 23:29:27 yeah, 9/10 if you don't mind using the slash there... I'd prefer the slash only for datetime ranges 23:29:31 it's confusing with numbers 23:29:53 for some reason I was thinking about it as "9 or 10" not "9 to 10" 23:30:02 oh 23:30:04 still 23:30:23 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: sprocklem). 23:30:36 b_jonas: Well, I don't think I'll be playing with real bacteria just yet, but I found this pre-existing tool https://github.com/HaseloffLab/CellModeller that does most of the hard simulation work for cell behaviour. I only thought this up yesterday, so give me some time :) 23:30:43 anyway, 10 counters would be amazing, I'll be interested to hear about what you getr 23:30:50 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:30:56 hmm wait 23:31:00 computing is beautiful. 23:31:28 ais523: do you mean that you're hoping for a TC *proof* for something like 10 counters, or only that the truth is around 10 counters but we can't hope to prove that? 23:31:35 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 23:31:37 the latter is more believable to me 23:31:48 b_jonas: explicit construction 23:32:02 I think the truth is probably actually in the 5 to 7 range but that I don't expect to optimise things that far 23:32:31 ais523: I think you have hit on something pretty special with it, I'm kinda new to esolangs but it jumped out as something pretty accessible yet bizarrely powerful 23:33:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 23:33:25 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:33:27 ais523: good 23:33:33 I'll definitely be interested 23:33:49 are the logs down? I've been trying to figure out what if anything I missed during connection trouble, but I can't load the logs either 23:34:05 logs were up today, let me check 23:34:26 and yes, examining a small but powerful model is interesting, that's also why I should document Consumer Society 23:34:52 while it's much more powerful and harder to implement than anything using counter machines, it still seems minimalistic but powerful in some sense 23:36:00 in that it can efficiently simulate not only turing machines, but also turing machines with only polynomial slowdown, and more, I think I can prove it can simulate even pointer machines or arbitrary indexed RAM accesses with slowdown of a factor that's a polynomial of the length of address accessed 23:36:24 but it's minimalistic in the sense that it has a version that has as few features as you can hope, if you remove anything from that version, it will no longer be able to do anything 23:36:46 and that version has very few primitves 23:37:15 basically just two, one for reading and one for writing, but obviously you can count these things differently 23:37:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:38:10 cheers. o/ 23:38:11 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 23:38:41 although... hmm, I wonder 23:38:46 eep 23:39:03 `quote 23:39:03 1148) Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting 23:39:49 ais523: yeah, logs on https://esolangs.org/logs seem to be down now 23:40:05 I get an 504 Gateway Time-out 23:40:28 . o O ( why is b_jonas pinging ais523 instead of me ) 23:40:52 i guess he may have been talking about the same thing. _i may never know_ 23:41:36 oerjan: ais523 asked if the logs were down 23:41:59 oerjan: you would know that if you could access the logs 23:41:59 i guess i didn't ask, i just tested all the other fizzie bots 23:42:07 indeed 23:42:21 `echo Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= 23:42:22 Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= 23:42:26 that bot is up 23:42:38 [ 'Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=' 23:42:38 b_jonas: Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= 23:42:42 hm tunes is no longer in my url history 23:42:42 that bot is also up 23:43:07 I think the other logs don't have fresh input these days 23:43:08 oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/18.12.18 23:43:10 they're only older logs 23:43:17 clog is still here, and still logging, although it loses connection sometimes 23:43:29 wtf 23:43:37 hi clog btw 23:43:38 yeah, you're right, that is running 23:44:00 ais523: i've been gone for more days than that. 23:44:13 oerjan: you can get to the others via URL editing 23:44:17 or just removing the date at the end for a list 23:45:49 hmm, there's actually an even more serious restriction of Consumer society possible that I believe is still TC, and I'll have to think about whether that one also allows to simulate RAM machines efficiently 23:46:07 I have been thinking of other similar restrictions, but not that particular one, so I'm not sure if it works 23:46:13 ais523: i started with the latter 23:46:21 I'll have to add that to my TODO 23:46:28 b_jonas: did you miss my comment earlier about Simpler Subskin, btw? 23:46:46 ais523: no, but I haven't read what that does yet 23:46:56 ah, that's very new 23:47:02 last week 23:47:10 it was designed "for" you, in the sense that it is (or should be) a counter machine with only a linear slowdown over Turing machines (i.e. if a Turing machine runs a program in time t, Simpler Subskin takes time kt for some k) 23:49:00 ais523: oh, I know something similar to that. I have an OISC where the basic operation is a double indirection subtract, and program and data is in the same array, so the loop is like m[2] = (m[m[m[0]++]]-=m[m[m[0]++]]) < 0; or something close to that 23:49:07 it's likely you can compile it into The Waterfall Model in a way that optimising implementations can decompile, too; I'd expect to see the results running with a log-slowdown compared to Turing machines on ratiofall (you'd need a "sparse bigint" to get log-log slowdown, which I think is the best you can do on a practical computer) 23:49:42 so m[0] is the IP and m[2] is the comparison indicator that has a value of 0 or 1, and you can use that to conditional jump in the next statement by using a 0 address 23:50:20 b_jonas: right, there are lots of OISCs 23:50:25 the same thing works without the double indirection, like m[2] = (m[m[0]++]-=m[m[0]++]) < 0; but then you need self-modifying code 23:50:31 I'm not even sure which version I had, let me check 23:50:32 this was my aim to go as simple as possible (i.e. no memory-mapping, no indirection) 23:51:19 the only problem is that I only wrote one program for it, and that one program sucks because it depends on 32-bit word size, so subtraction is modulo 2**32, and that dependence is totally unncessary, I should have written the program better 23:51:44 let me check what rule I used exactly, it might not be exactly the same, just something simlar 23:52:24 it's possible that I had the souce before the destination in the memory, not after 23:55:25 -!- salpynx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:56:09 the loop says, in perl for(my@a=(0,42,0,0,...);$a[1];$a[3]&&print chr$a[4]){$a[2]=-(($a[$a[$a[1]++]]-=$a[$a[$a[1]++]])<0)} 23:56:46 that $a[$a[$a[1]++]] bit is pretty reminiscent of Three Star Programmer 23:56:49 but the brackets aren't quite in the right place 23:57:18 so actually IP is in cell 1, and the comparison indicator has values 0 and -1, probably because there's a subtraction involved somewhere 23:57:21 hmm 23:57:31 and the comparison indicator is in cell 2 23:57:49 darn, don't I have the assembler sourcecode for this program somewhere? let me check my archives 23:57:55 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=483243 by the way 23:58:00 I want to figure out how conditionals work 23:58:50 I wrote "ctx->ctx->ctx" the other day. 23:58:57 It's just such a good name for any sort of context. 2018-12-19: 00:00:02 can't find it 00:00:27 oh, it might be here 00:02:39 ah, here it is 00:03:41 oh right 00:03:54 no wait 00:04:23 it looks like for comparisons, I copy the value of the comparison indictor into the next statement 00:04:33 but why? there's a double indirection 00:05:08 isn't the double indirection enough to just conditional jump in one instruction? 00:06:11 I mean, if $a[1] is 2 when the source is read, then $a[$a[1]] is the comparison indicator, and $a[$a[$a[1]]] is the instruction pointer for a false comparison, and a scratch cell for a true comparison 00:07:08 I mean, obviously then you want 1 in the comparison indicator because -1 is not a safe scratch cell 00:07:16 the terminator 0 for the input is in 1 00:07:25 but I could have used 1 in the comparison indicator easily 00:09:06 strange 00:09:19 oh well, it's a very old and bad code 00:09:24 would probably do it better now 00:09:29 ok, let me check this subskin quickly 00:09:33 it's getting late 00:09:38 simpler subskin 00:11:03 ais523: yeah, this Simpler subskin is harder to program, because the control flow is conditionally skipping the next instruction and a single big loop around the program 00:11:29 ais523: also the code and data are separate, so you can't write self-modifying code, and there's no indirection 00:11:50 ais523: so if I understand correctly, this one can only access a limited amount of cells, so you need bignum magic to store data 00:11:50 b_jonas: right, it's very much a tarpit-of-OISCs 00:11:54 yes 00:12:08 the trick is, it should run at full speed /despite/ the bignum magic 00:12:10 ok, that is very different from the kind of OISC that I was thinking of 00:12:27 I'm not sure what the best control flow is, but I definitely wanted something that can do indirect memory access 00:12:27 as you can simulate all three main stack operations (push 0, push 1, pop) in constant time each 00:12:41 which can be done either by code and data in the same space or a built-in indirection 00:12:50 ais523: yeah 00:13:32 ais523: but only as much speed as you get with a compile time bounded number of stacks or tapes 00:13:35 not more 00:13:46 I want indirection to have random access to memory 00:14:05 not that I need that for the example program, it's just that that's the kind of OISC I was thinking of 00:14:18 obviously there are a lot of those already 00:14:28 there's even a three-instruction version I think 00:14:43 one that can subtract, do some bitwise operation, and conditional jump 00:14:52 or maybe it's one instruction with four arguments 00:15:23 RAM0, perhaps? although that can't do subtraction without a loop 00:15:54 ais523: yeah, this Simpler Subskin with the counters and subtraction is worth documenting, at least if it's really TC with that control structure 00:16:08 ais523: what it reminds me of is that IOCCC language 00:16:32 the one that only has a big loop, no control structure, but add, subtract, multiply and divide on variables 00:16:42 Babbage analytical engine language IOCCC 1992 buzzard1 http://www.de.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1 00:17:15 it's on my TODO on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas because it deserves at least a stub on Esoteric 00:17:16 b_jonas: heh, I invented that one independently for a Stack Exchange competition, and called it Blindfolded Arithmetic 00:18:19 to program in that one, you use those four operations to implement comparison with 0 and 1 result, then conditional assign using that and multiply, and that's the only control structure you get, but note that you can also multiple multiple comparison results together, so you can have nested conditionals 00:18:58 which is helpful because two levels of conditional and a big loop gets you a state machine to simulate goot 00:19:01 goto 00:19:09 ais523: wow 00:19:22 ais523: now I'm curios, which Stack Exchange competition? 00:19:58 ah, I'll search "blindfolded" 00:20:18 I'm trying to search the page atm, and have been for the last minute or so 00:20:20 but my Internet sucks 00:20:28 um... no, the search doesn't work for me either 00:20:32 there's something on SE's side 00:20:34 here: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531 00:20:44 https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/162290/escape-from-the-tarpit-cops/162531#162531 00:21:28 that seems to be the one, I'll have to read it later 00:22:07 yeah, seems to be very similar. I must comment then 00:23:11 commented, but TODO self: read that 00:23:49 ais523: the exit condition is different, but that's minor 00:24:10 right 00:25:32 also, you don't have a plain assignment, but that's easy to simulate: instead of A=B; you write A-=A; A+=B; 00:25:51 yes 00:26:28 the "A -= A;" operation actually turns out to be an interesting special case in many of these small counter machines, as it's often the only way to break reversibility 00:27:24 and for comparison, if you know that A is nonnegative, then you can safely do B=A; B+=1; B/=B; B-=1; and then B is either 0 or 1 00:27:38 hmm, you restricted the number of variables, and don't even allow literals 00:27:42 that's devious 00:28:00 now whoever solves that has to prove that that number of memory cells is enough 00:28:11 and knowing you, you probably used the lowest number of memory cells that works 00:28:26 you probably have to reserve one of them just to keep a constant 1 00:28:39 that is tricky 00:28:50 I'm not even sure if I can prove five is enoguh 00:29:02 hmm 00:29:13 no wait, six 00:29:16 you can reuse the input 00:29:25 maybe 00:29:37 there's a big loop, so reusing the input isn't trivial 00:30:24 let me think, I need one cell for constant 1, two scratch cells for two comparisons like above, and then you can do two-counter Minsky with the other two I think 00:30:37 no 00:30:40 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 00:30:56 hmm 00:31:04 how does the binary stack pop work? 00:31:33 b_jonas: in which language? simpler subskin, or blindfolded arithmetic? 00:31:46 blindfolded arithmetic. I'll work it out: 00:33:11 S is the stack, I is the constant 1; then B=S; I+=I; S/=I; S+=S; B-=S; S/=I; I/=I; then B is the bottom bit and S the popped stack 00:33:39 and push 0 is just; S+=S; and push 1 is S+=S; S+=I; 00:34:07 but then I still need one more variable 00:34:51 because I need two stacks for TC, two comparison indicators and a state indicator to implement the state machine 00:35:19 unless I can bootstrap copy from the input to a stack with one less variables somehow 00:35:23 but that seems hard 00:35:32 ais523: darn, this is tricky 00:35:39 ais523: don't tell the solution yet, I'll want to think about this 00:35:43 nice puzzle 00:36:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:40:08 maybe two stacks isn't even the right approach, maybe only one variable stores the data but is accessed in a trickier way 00:42:02 -!- nchambers has joined. 00:43:32 I could store 2 and 3 in ternary, and rotate cyclically 00:43:38 no 00:43:39 hmm 00:43:44 that might not work either 00:44:08 TODO self: think about this and figure out how six variables, one storing input, are enough 00:44:16 hmm waity 00:44:23 let me read the spec, can the input be encoded? 00:45:22 nope, it can't be encoded 00:45:28 must accept any positive integer as input 00:54:41 if you don't have to handle input encoding you can do it in five :-) 00:58:09 hmm, now I'm trying to optimise this myself, you've inspired me to see if I can use fewer variables via using a different approach 01:03:02 ais523: I have an idea 01:04:02 I can probably do unconditional comparisons to add 2*(S%2) + 4*(S%4) + 8*(I and in the resulting split program states, do the goto, pop, push, decrease I instructions, 01:04:45 that way I only need one level of conditionals, 01:05:00 so I may be able to get away with two stacks, one constant 1, one scratch, and one program counter 01:05:09 but I'll have to think through because it's not quite clear if I can really do this 01:05:23 the one big loop makes it tricky, because I need to handle initialization of the program very carefully 01:05:30 it's easy to run out of variables during the initialization 01:05:44 or run into a divison by zero somewhere during that if you mess it up 01:07:29 I think this lets me keep the input register positive, and so initialize the constant 1 register, let's call it A instead of I because I is the input register, like A-=A; A+=I; A/=A; 01:08:42 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 01:10:27 and then you can do those three comparisons, like { B-=B; B+=I; B/=B; B-=I; B+=B; C+=B; } to mean { C+=1 hmm no 01:11:31 that doesn't work 01:11:33 darn 01:13:12 hmm, I just realised that the v=v@v and v@=v (where @ is any operation) notations for blindfolded arithmetic are equivalent; implementing the latter with the former is trivial, and the other way round, "a=b@c" can be compiled into "a-=a; a+=b; a@=c" 01:13:42 ais523: yes, that's what I said about plain assignments 01:13:56 right, I wasn't paying attention :-D 01:14:05 so the comparison of I is rather like { /* precondition: 1==A && 1<=I; */ B-=B; B-=A; B/=I; /* now B == (I<=1) */ B+=B; C+=B; } 01:14:06 or no, this isn't quite the same 01:14:08 but close enough 01:18:20 and if D and E are the two stacks, then the other two comparisons are like { /* precondition: 1==A && 0<=D && 0<=E; */ A+=A; B-=B; B+=D; B/=A; B+=B; B-=D; /* now B is D%2 */ B+=B; B+=B; C+=B; B-=B; B+=E; B/=A; B+=B; B-=E; /* now B is E%2; */ B+=B; B+=B; B+=B; C+=B; A/=A; } 01:19:01 and then you'll have to do comparisons on C, but they're tricky ones because they're equality comparisons to any integer 01:19:17 but since we're keeping the low bit of C clear, I think you can do that 01:21:37 hmm, you might actually need to keep C a multiply of 3 to make it work 01:24:34 I'll think about it 01:24:35 good night 01:24:37 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:16:17 -!- imode has joined. 02:18:36 [[Hexlr7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58755 * Cortex * (+3036) Created page with "'''Hexlr7''' is a language by [[User:Cortex]] on 12/18/2018, designed to be easy (but not too easy) to implement. Implementing it might be a good thing to do when bored and wi..." 02:19:26 [[Hexlr7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58756&oldid=58755 * Cortex * (+19) 02:21:14 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:48:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:51:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:53:53 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58757&oldid=58601 * Cortex * (+40) 03:29:17 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:32:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:44:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 04:12:39 -!- salpynx has joined. 04:32:29 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Page closed). 04:33:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:47:39 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:03:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:17:58 -!- imode has joined. 06:25:10 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 06:34:42 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:37:42 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 06:39:17 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:40:42 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:41:07 -!- heroux has joined. 07:08:58 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 07:13:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:18:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:35:44 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:37:24 -!- GeekDude has joined. 08:32:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:58:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:03:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:34:14 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:44:14 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:51:48 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:31:48 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:31:55 https://esolangs.org/logs/ is still down :-( 10:32:35 let me check codu 10:32:44 nope, tunes 10:32:51 yes, tunes works 10:35:21 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58758&oldid=58754 * Salpynx * (+1242) Truth-machine candidate 11:35:06 Hrm. 11:37:27 wob_jonas: I think you had bad timing. According to my monitoring, it was down (for me, anyway) from 11pm to 1am (UTC) over last night, and then from 10am to 11am this morning, but it should be up now. 11:37:31 Works for me, anyway. 11:37:57 No idea what was wrong, though. I don't think the Prometheus blackbox probe saves any logs of failed attempts anywhere. :/ 11:38:17 hmm 11:38:31 yeah, it is up now 11:39:14 Both times it's been down for almost exactly one hour (it was very briefly back up at midnight). So maybe there's some specific logs page that crashes the server, and it takes an hour to recover. 11:39:25 If it's just /logs, I guess nginx error logs might have something. 11:39:33 fizzie: also, I think it didn't lose IRC connectivity, only the web interface was inaccessible. good. 11:40:02 Yeah, those are entirely separate binaries, one writes logfiles and the other serves them. 11:40:21 fizzie: sure, but I thought it was an error with accessing the network 11:40:47 if the web process crashed, then we should try to send all kinds of bytes and other strange text in the irc lines to try to reproduce it 11:41:05 I think that happens quite naturally on this channel. 11:41:06 2018/12/18 23:09:49 [error] 28385#28385: *3568829 upstream timed out (110: Connection timed out) while reading response header from upstream, client: 66.160.140.184, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /logs/2018-12-10-raw.txt HTTP/1.1", upstream: "http://127.0.0 11:41:13 fizzie: right, but we want to localize the bug 11:41:15 ...I was going to redact that client IP. 11:41:24 But my paste added a newline. 11:41:30 In any case, not too informative. 11:41:44 I know I had a bug in cbstream with characters that aren't valid cp1252 after perlmonks has officially and retroactively changed the encoding from iso-8859-1 to cp1252, because the XML decoding failed 11:42:07 we fixed that on the perlmonks side, so that the emitted XML is valid XML 1.1, because it affected most XML parsers 11:42:32 technically the output just wasn't valid XML, and it could happen with almost all the XML API of perlmonks, it all used the same quoting functino 11:42:45 it wasn't a problem with iso-8859-1 because all bytes are valid in that 11:43:14 so now perlmonks escapes those bytes to different existing high characters when emitting xml 11:43:31 No logs output from the actual logs server, and the process doesn't seem to have died either. 11:43:54 Will have to look into this later, busy now. 11:43:58 so as long as your XML parser interprets cp1252 as the new cp1252 (MS changed it once or twice without renaming to add the four romanian disunified letters and the euro sign and maybe a few others) 11:44:25 I won't test this now, but will try to inject some strange characters here later 11:44:39 although I think there are some people here who don't like that, because it "breaks their irc client" or something 11:45:04 the bot logs only this channel, right? no test channel I can experiment with 11:45:25 It's just this channel. 11:45:37 oh well, then it will break those people's IRC clients 11:46:07 The server's written around a single-threaded event loop, so it's possible some blocking operation has found its way in, that would probably result in no special logs but "connection timed out" errors from nginx. 11:46:31 fizzie: ah, that's possible 11:47:14 I can't just hang it by throttling the read side of the HTTP TCP connection though, right? 11:47:21 I guess I should test that 11:47:48 though that needs some tricky network configuration, lowering my fragment size or something 11:55:13 ais523: should I add a stub for https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531/6691 blindfolded arithmetic on esolangs wiki? or should I instead create a stub for the IOCCC language and mention your post there? 11:55:53 I think I'll do the latter 11:57:09 also, I wonder how it should call it. I don't want to call it just "Babbage analytical engine" because then someone might find assume that that's exactly what Babbage was planning, and that's not certain 11:57:32 do we have some sort of systematic naming for IOCCC or ICFP contest esolangs? 11:57:58 like, I dunno, IOCCC/1992_buzzard/0 or something 11:58:34 [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58759&oldid=58497 * B jonas * (+60) 12:09:12 . o O ( 8b12acb3e05c4a04c73bb9638af1d2277f94c195 ) 12:09:32 int-e: hmm, a random name? sure, that's possible too 12:09:39 wob_jonas: it's not random. 12:09:58 although if I choose one, I'll use uppercase hexadecimals, or base64 encode or something, not lowercase hexadecimals 12:09:59 it's the output of sha1sum 1992/buzzard.1.c 12:10:38 int-e: but why would I want that? "IOCCC/1992_buzzard/0" or variants of them are short enough 12:11:07 oh darn 12:11:10 it's content-addressable :P 12:11:16 it would have to be "IOCCC/1992_buzzard.1/0" 12:11:45 two buzzard entries that day, so "buzzard.1" is the name 12:11:56 s/day/year/ 12:12:27 so what's the last component? 12:13:04 int-e: a disambiguator in case there's more than one language associated with the same IOCCC entry. that happens sometimes, though it's more common with ICFP contests. 12:13:23 wob_jonas: hmm, put differently, where do you put the hints? 12:13:41 and possibly other auxiliary files? 12:14:10 tbh I think you should follow the file structure in the downloadable archives 12:14:42 IOCCC/1992_buzzard.2 has two esolangs associated, and 2018_mills has two esolangs associated too 12:14:42 then all you need is a prefix and IOCCC seems fine for that. 12:14:54 int-e: yes, associating with the hint could work too 12:15:09 match the higher level language with the hint file that implements it 12:15:50 int-e: ok, we should do that, but IOCCC should be mentioned somewhere 12:16:21 int-e: I'm following the anchor name in http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#1992_buzzard.2 12:16:31 int-e: but downloadable archive may be better 12:19:08 So IOCCC-1992-buzzard-1? hmmm. We have categories for years, and we might have one for IOCCC. I don't know. 12:19:35 int-e: haven't I created that? or was that for ICFP contests? 12:19:50 yeah, the latter. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:ICFP_contest 13:14:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:34:21 wob_jonas: Now that you mention it, it actually uses a third-party HTTP server (CivetWeb), which uses the thread-per-request (from a pool) model; it's just the rest that's of it that's event-loop-oriented. In any case, the issue might be either on CivetWeb's side (I'm not terribly impressed by it) or on my side. 13:34:30 Although rendering "normal" log pages (like the index or a day/month) don't really involve the event loop side, it's only the stalker page which does. So if I've managed to get the event loop thread stuck, that shouldn't prevent the rest of it from working. 13:35:37 (Also turns out my local respository has like a billion uncommitted changes, I was in the middle of migrating the zem.fi bfjoust site to be a part of the esolangs.org infrastructure (integrating into the existing bot), and just got sidetracked and never finished that. 13:37:19 fizzie: ok 13:37:39 in the meantime, thank you for maintaining this 13:37:47 I know how tricky that can be 13:38:22 I will have to try to start to fix cbstream during the Christmas break, i.e. rewrite the whole darned thing and prepare to reinstall the hosting server 13:38:41 possibly even get a new hosting server for myself in the longer term or something 13:38:43 I maintain it in fits and starts, once every few months. :) 13:39:36 Still haven't managed to figure out what "Dec 19 11:58:34 techne.zem.fi esobot[19709]: [140B blob data]" means in systemctl status. There's a few messages like that per day. 13:39:36 yeah, it's just that cbstream and the hosting server are so old and dusty and bitrotten, that I'll have to purge them with fire or something 13:39:45 perhaps get a flamethrower 13:40:21 I think these correspond to the wiki updates, actually. So maybe that code path outputs something. 13:40:30 140 bytes? hehe. cbstream has a binary log that stores 8 bytes per request, and there's normally one request per 30 seconds 13:40:52 Actually, maybe it duplicates the wiki update to stdout for debugging, and systemd is offended by the command characters for the colors. 13:40:57 I'll probably change the format if I rewrite cbstream though 13:41:12 and make the new version of the decoder program handle both formats 13:41:30 LOG(INFO) << "wiki message: " << msg; 13:41:34 Well, that's one mystery solved. 13:41:39 ah 13:41:47 and that goes to systemctl? 13:41:49 ok 13:42:07 It's run under systemd as a service, so it captures the stdout and writes it to wherever. 13:42:14 (systemd is such a black box.) 13:42:23 hmm 13:43:47 I guess it's nice that you don't have to worry about timestamping, logfiles, log rotation or any of that stuff, you just write to stdout. 13:44:29 But the data is stored in some binary journal somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember the journalctl command syntax. Fortunately "systemctl status" prints a snippet, and that's usually enough. 13:47:12 /topic 13:47:14 uhm 13:47:36 in fact, I should process the binary log file to be able to provide a more precise estimate on request, since part of the point of fixing cbstream is to be able to say "over 10 years, over 20 users" in my CV 13:48:02 although I added the logfile later, so the first few years are probably missing 13:48:25 but still 14:00:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:07:28 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:16:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:23:17 `echo qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o 14:23:18 qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o 14:31:50 and what does it base64 -d as? 14:37:29 `` base64 -d << ​DY;pY:S15}SAү`VH}=ڊ4Mh 14:37:51 that doesn't look very legible ;) 14:37:55 true 14:38:10 `` base64 -d << 0000000 aa a9 44 c0 10 1c 19 cd 59 3b a2 e8 f7 a5 70 59 \ 0000020 3a 53 8f 31 ac b3 99 88 35 7d 53 9c cd 41 19 8a \ 0000040 d2 af 94 60 56 c9 48 eb 7d 3d da 8a 34 4d cd 68 \ 0000060 14:38:47 `` base64 -d << ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ndisasm: command not found 14:47:46 Oh well, it looks fairly random. Perhaps an sha384 hash of something (base64 encoded as wob_jonas suggested earlier) 14:48:04 it's random 14:48:17 I generated it with openssl rand -base64 14:48:24 EVIL 14:48:38 it's just a unique tag to make sure HackEso is answering that line, not some other line with echo 14:48:44 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:00:42 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:02:43 -!- tromp has joined. 15:22:56 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 15:23:18 At least we got some unlikely bytes in the logs out of it. :) 15:25:29 Interesting, looks like it did another short dip as unavailable. Or at least there's failed probes for 10 minutes. 15:26:29 zzo38: this might be of interest to you https://towardsdatascience.com/finding-magic-the-gathering-archetypes-with-latent-dirichlet-allocation-729112d324a6 15:28:10 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:30:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:30:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:35:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:35:38 From access logs, someone opened the stalker page right before it started failing. Something wrong with that, I guess. 15:36:02 . o O ( let's blame oerjan ) 15:37:46 This was with an iPhone, somehow I can't associate oerjan with iPhones. 15:38:12 (From New Zealand as well.) 15:38:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:39:42 which might possibly be even harder to associate with oerjan 15:41:13 The logs are odd. There's a fetch of /logs/stalker.html (with status code 200) at 12:32:06, after that all (non-stalker) /logs/* requests get 499 (nginx code for "client closed") or 504 ("gateway timeout") up until 12:45:33 when there's a GET /logs/api/stalker.ws with code 101 (switching protocols", the normal thing for websockets) and after that regular /logs/ pages work again. 15:42:30 can you reproduce it by accessing stalker.html / stalker.ws ? 15:46:53 Maybe, but I should be paying attention to work, not this. Anyway, I think normally there should be a /logs/api/stalker.ws request right after /logs/stalker.html. Though maybe it doesn't get logged for some reason. 15:49:40 "To update automatically, stalker mode requires a reasonably modern browser with scripts enabled. If this message does not disappear, it's either because of that or a bug. Feel free to get in touch on channel for debugging. Or just work around the issue by manually reloading." 15:49:44 ;) 15:49:51 "normally" 15:49:57 Hmm. Odd. 15:50:09 It's probably the initial websocket request that never finishes then. 15:50:09 Not at all, I have Javascript disabled. 15:50:53 Obviously I have no clue what happened there earlier. 15:51:12 And it could still be a coincidence. 15:52:27 Hmm. 15:52:38 Well, the stalker page worked straight out of the box for me on my work browser. 15:52:52 And the rest of the site is still up. 15:52:58 But of course this is no iPhone from New Zealand. 15:53:23 where else could one look... anything in the kernel log (dmesg)? 15:53:47 (or does systemd redirect to the journal as well...) 15:55:51 For the previous time it was down, the last successful request was also for stalker.html, so I strongly suspect the WebSocket stuff. And again the first request when it starts working again is for stalker.ws, although this time for client timing out. 15:56:03 So probably not a coincidence, but doesn't trigger every time. 16:03:05 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zcstr * New user account 16:17:32 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58760&oldid=58696 * Zcstr * (+188) 16:59:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:06:06 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:30:49 -!- imode has joined. 17:44:07 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:44:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:44:07 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 17:45:28 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 17:55:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:02 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:22:33 -!- MDude has joined. 18:26:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:45:46 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:47:00 ais523: thank you for linking to the blindfolded arithmetic thing, it's interesting. I'll have to write down the details to check, but I think you're right in that it can simulate a two-stack machine as you define it. 18:47:25 in fact I'm starting to think that we can even spare one register, or simulate a three-stack machine, but I'm not certain yet 18:48:21 I think it's possible to reuse (i-1) as another stack, because at the start of the program, we can copy its data, converting from base 2 to say base 4, to the stack d, all the while keeping i positive, and we don't need an extra stack during that, 18:48:46 and after that we can start to use (i-1) as a second stack, distinguishing between the states using the value of c, 18:49:19 but I'll have to check if this is really possible, where it could go wrong is that we might need an extra scratch register in some stack 18:49:24 s/some stack/some step/ 18:56:18 the tricky part is actually the equality check for the state register, I'll have to write down later how exactly that is done 19:01:58 yeah, that should be possible too. just keep all state numbers divisible by 4, temporarily add (1-S) to c, then a=1/c tests if the original c was equal to S, then restore c. 19:03:14 then a is 1 if the state is equal to S, 0 otherwise, and you use that to do the push or pop in that state only 19:03:17 -!- imode has joined. 19:03:21 should work 19:12:13 something I'm starting to wonder... is there a tree version of RDF rather than a graph version? 19:13:38 in fact I'll have to think it can probably be done with just four variables. 19:44:51 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:45:46 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:48:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:15:59 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:28:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:38 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 20:49:38 -!- Essadon has quit (Read error: No route to host). 20:55:17 -!- Essadon has joined. 20:55:35 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 20:56:32 -!- salpynx has joined. 21:03:48 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:33:32 -!- moony_ has joined. 21:53:16 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:02:29 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58761&oldid=58567 * Cortex * (+13) /* Example-based languages */ 22:33:43 -!- moony_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:43:00 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:01:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:33:16 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:41:38 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:43:40 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:54:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 2018-12-20: 00:08:15 -!- uplime has joined. 00:10:41 -!- uplime has changed nick to Rudolph. 00:11:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:26:38 -!- tromp has joined. 00:30:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:56:16 [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58762&oldid=47263 * Voltage2007 * (-23) Fixed grammatical errors 01:02:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:14:33 . o O ( let's blame oerjan ) <-- i don't use the stalker logs hth 01:21:13 -!- tromp has joined. 01:25:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:51:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:52:23 -!- nfd has joined. 01:55:35 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:13:01 -!- salpynx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:15:23 -!- tromp has joined. 02:19:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:30:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:33:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:03:26 -!- tromp has joined. 04:04:56 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:07:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:16:56 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:23:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:52:15 -!- tromp has joined. 05:56:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:13:38 -!- imode has joined. 06:25:53 -!- iconmaster has joined. 06:37:42 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:37:57 -!- Lymia has joined. 06:46:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:51:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:58:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:43:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:56:55 -!- tromp has joined. 07:59:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:53 -!- tromp has joined. 08:43:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:50:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:30:03 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:31:05 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 12:09:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:08:25 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:08:43 @messages? 13:08:43 Sorry, no messages today. 13:09:33 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:09:35 @messages? 13:09:35 Sorry, no messages today. 13:09:47 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 13:10:35 @messages? 13:10:35 Sorry, no messages today. 13:27:01 six does seem like too many variables for Blindfolded Arithmetic 13:27:42 my own solution to the problem was a three-counter machine (basically due to the I/O encoding issue; a two-counter machine can't do the I/O encoding by itself so you'd need a separate system for that, a three-counter machine can) 13:28:04 more recently, I've been thinking that Fractran may be a good target language 13:28:14 we have basically all the primitives we need already 13:28:53 (a zero-test can be done via adding 1 and dividing into 1, and a modulus operation via divide, multiply, subtract) 13:29:23 let's see… we need one variable for the current working value, and two (probably) as temporaries 13:29:48 let's say a as the working value, b and c as the temporaries 13:31:23 a divisibility check by a constant k is b=a; b/=k; b*=k; b-=a; b-=a/a; c=a/a; c/=b;, now c is 1 if k divides a, 0 if k does not divide a 13:32:14 (Blindfolded Arithmetic doesn't have numerical constants but we can use c as a temporary to hold the value of k) 13:33:37 err, c is now -1 if k divides a, or 0 if k does not divide a, a distinction that's not massively important 13:34:30 What are the constraints in Blindfolded Arithmetic/where can I find more info about it? 13:35:04 Luciole: see https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531 for a specification 13:35:56 although when b_jonas and I discuss it in IRC we sometimes use shorthand, which follows the same rules as C 13:37:07 you can pretty much define the language in one line, though: "a bignum language which supports addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, assignment, but only one assignment and one arithmetic operation per line, no constants, no flow control, the entire program is one big loop" 13:37:23 what we're mostly focusing on is trying to reduce the number of variables you need for TCness as far as possible 13:38:10 oh, and division is integer division that trunactes towards 0 13:38:24 which is actually really exploitable 13:38:41 b_jonas has a theory that Blindfolded Arithmetic is very close to the language planned for the original Analytical Engine 13:40:11 anyway, we have our divisibility test, so the other thing we need for TCness is a conditional-multiply-by-ratio 13:41:12 and you can do that with b=a; b+=a; b+=a; … b+=a; b*=c; b+=a; b+=a; … b+=a; a=b (followed by calculating your denominator using b and c and dividing a by it) 13:41:54 once you do this you have a "cyclic" version of Fractran, which is TC because you can easily implement regular Fractran using one extra prime to see if you've already done a division this cycle 13:42:05 so it looks like three variables is enough for this without I/O 13:42:07 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 13:43:30 @message b_jonas on the subject of Blindfolded Arithmetic, I think it and buzzard.1/0 are as different as bignum brainfuck and infinite-tape brainfuck 13:43:30 Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages? 13:43:33 @tell b_jonas on the subject of Blindfolded Arithmetic, I think it and buzzard.1/0 are as different as bignum brainfuck and infinite-tape brainfuck 13:43:33 Consider it noted. 13:44:09 @tell b_jonas which is, very similar spec, but very different programming styles; as such, there is probably room for a page about both languages (obviously, with cross-links) 13:44:10 Consider it noted. 13:45:32 I/O encoding seems nightmarish in this, though, so you might need a fourth variable for that 13:45:36 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:54:47 ais523_: ah 13:56:19 I guess I/O encoding will definitely require a loop, and the only place I can see to store the encoded value of the I/O is c 13:57:16 meaning that we have to dead-reckon c throughout the entire operation in order to store an extra piece of data in it, which will have interesting effects on a (but we might be able to control them) 13:57:35 anyway, I have a meeting 13:57:39 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: quit). 14:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:08:58 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:54:21 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:11:10 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:11:42 -!- moony_ has joined. 15:23:28 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Leduyquang753 * New user account 15:32:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:32:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:33:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:03:11 -!- moony_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:16:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:17:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:12:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:13:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:24:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 17:25:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:28:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 17:32:22 -!- imode has joined. 17:33:33 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:36:16 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:02:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:04:36 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:05:38 ais523: I believe five variables are enough for blindfolded arithmetic, and four may be, see channel logs yesterday 18:06:31 ais523: sure they're different. you allow a = b / a which Babbage's doesn't allow, which might just give you a bit of an edge when it comes to the number of variables 18:07:09 ais523: I'll try to write down a detailed and readable proof some time on how I can simulate two tapes with five variables, and, if I can make it work, with four variables 18:08:11 "b_jonas has a theory that Blindfolded Arithmetic is very close to the language planned for the original Analytical Engine" => definitely not. I'm saying it's very similar to the machine that IOCCC entry talks about. its author was the one who compared it to Babbage's something or anohter, 18:08:22 I don't think it has much to do with Babbage actually. 18:10:02 ais523: you're saying three variables? dunno, might be possible, I don't claim it impossible. 18:13:50 also, wth, ais523 around 12:30 Z? 18:46:27 @metar EGKK 18:46:29 EGKK 201820Z 21006KT 9999 BKN032 09/06 Q1008 18:46:39 . o O ( what's the indicator for increased drone activity? ) 18:58:16 int-e: high temperature and buzzing 18:58:26 also allergies 18:58:39 different kind of drones 19:04:23 try listening for microwave-based control signals 19:06:29 b_jonas: ah but I wanted a METAR acronym. 19:07:20 * int-e could have been more specific. 19:07:38 @google egkk 19:07:39 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatwick_Airport 19:33:50 `icao EGKK 19:33:51 Gatwick (LGW, EGKK) 19:34:13 `airport gatwick 19:34:13 Gatwick (LGW, EGKK) 19:35:05 (Just checking.) 19:35:32 I didn't know or forgot that we had those (probably the latter). 19:35:50 I remember them, I just can't remember the syntax. 19:36:22 It's a little ambiguous whether `icao is for converting from or to. 19:37:21 is there a command that tells the timezone and current timezone offset for an airport? 19:38:42 Not that I know of, though the timezone is part of airports.dat. 19:39:07 `` grep Gatwick share/airports.dat 19:39:07 502,"Gatwick","London","United Kingdom","LGW","EGKK",51.148056,-0.190278,202,0,"E","Europe/London" 19:39:45 `` grep LOWI share/airports.dat 19:39:46 1610,"Innsbruck","Innsbruck","Austria","INN","LOWI",47.260219,11.343964,1906,1,"E","Europe/Vienna" 19:39:53 last entry, I see 19:40:31 ``` grep Arizona share/airports.dat 19:40:32 No output. 19:41:13 there's no international airport in Arizona? 19:41:22 `` head -n1 share/airports.dat 19:41:22 1,"Goroka","Goroka","Papua New Guinea","GKA","AYGA",-6.081689,145.391881,5282,10,"U","Pacific/Port_Moresby" 19:41:37 no column description :/ 19:42:35 `` grep KPHX share/airports.dat 19:42:36 3462,"Phoenix Sky Harbor Intl","Phoenix","United States","PHX","KPHX",33.434278,-112.011583,1135,-7,"N","America/Phoenix" 19:42:46 There is, it just doesn't say "Arizona" anywhere in it. 19:43:36 int-e: The column description is at https://openflights.org/data.html 19:43:41 hmm. 5282 is in m, 1906 is in ft? 19:43:45 darn 19:43:50 I meant to delete that, never mind. 19:44:13 Google AYGA elevation is wrong :) 19:44:19 Except the "type" and "source" columns might be newer than in our copy. 19:46:19 `? bacon tree 19:46:20 bacon tree? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:47:42 `? drone 19:47:44 Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times. 19:48:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 19:49:00 `grWp shrdlu 19:49:02 No output. 19:50:18 `? pixel 19:50:19 pixel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:51:44 `? voxel 19:51:45 voxel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:52:20 `? bloxel 19:52:21 bloxel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:52:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:55:27 `? Axel 19:55:28 Axel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:55:29 `? axle 19:55:30 axle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:55:32 `? excel 19:55:33 excel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:56:01 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:56:34 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 20:06:23 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:09:21 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 20:19:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 20:43:56 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:55:37 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58763 * B jonas * (+776) Created page with "'''Blindfolded arithmetic''' is an esoteric language that [[User:ais523]] has published in 2018 on Code Golf Stack Exchange. It is similar to a language called Babbage's Anal..." 20:56:15 -!- Melvar has joined. 20:57:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:02:51 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:13:31 -!- imode has joined. 21:14:10 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58764&oldid=58763 * B jonas * (+876) 21:18:03 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58765&oldid=58764 * B jonas * (+47) 21:18:18 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58766&oldid=58765 * B jonas * (+0) 21:26:14 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 21:29:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:29:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:58:46 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:22:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:24:52 -!- MDude has joined. 22:29:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:34:27 -!- MDude has joined. 22:44:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:57:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:00:10 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 23:02:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:14:07 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:29:42 -!- Essadon has joined. 23:43:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-12-21: 00:03:10 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:18:40 -!- nchambers has joined. 00:19:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:19:46 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58767&oldid=58766 * B jonas * (+8459) 00:27:20 @metar ENVA 00:27:21 ENVA 202350Z 11010KT 080V150 CAVOK 01/M05 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 14013KT 00:27:28 no drones today 00:29:12 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58768&oldid=58767 * B jonas * (+1029) 00:31:30 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58769&oldid=58768 * B jonas * (+117) 00:40:20 ais523: now let me read your TC construction for Blindfolded arithmetic 00:41:07 . o O ( shouldn't you be reading that blindfolded? ) 00:43:20 ah I see, it's not ais532's construction actually 00:43:52 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58770&oldid=58769 * B jonas * (+17) /* External links */ 00:56:12 [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58771&oldid=53644 * Ais523 * (-143) /* External resources */ updated compiler, now handles all of printable ASCII! 01:17:51 I'll have to think about the four-register version. I think it's possible. 01:18:17 I just have to squash the state counter and the first stack into c. 01:18:21 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:20:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yechar * New user account 01:24:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:35:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:14:48 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:23:33 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 02:52:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 02:58:33 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:59:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:07:52 -!- imode has joined. 03:32:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:34:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:08:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:43:20 -!- tromp has joined. 04:47:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:51:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:16:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:37:55 -!- tromp has joined. 05:42:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:45:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:48:58 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:22:18 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 06:22:18 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:20:01 -!- Xylochoron has joined. 07:24:35 -!- Xylochoron has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:55:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:02:10 -!- tromp has joined. 08:15:55 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:27:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:50:20 [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58772&oldid=58771 * Ais523 * (+77) /* External resources */ TIO link 09:01:23 [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58773&oldid=53609 * Ais523 * (+761) edit for accuracy, explaining why this doesn't work 10:07:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:18:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:32:32 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] to [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]]: caps 10:33:15 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58776&oldid=58774 * Ais523 * (+0) caps 10:33:54 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58777&oldid=58680 * Ais523 * (+28) one of my languages got added by someone else 10:34:48 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58778&oldid=58776 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Definition */ Blindfolded Arithmetic can actually /output/ negative and zero integers, but only /input/ positive integers 10:41:45 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58779&oldid=58778 * Ais523 * (-1) /* General structure of compilation */ fix mismatched tags 11:20:03 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:21:03 In the US, why did the media guys push for a longer copyright term, instead of just pushing for a fixed term after the death of the author, and then maintain Walt Disney's cryogenic chamber in a state where it's plausibly deniable that he's known to be dead? 11:23:11 ais523: I'll document the four registers construction later. It's not hard, but I have to do other stuff now. 11:23:42 Also, the extra registers are still useful, because you can put extra stacks on them, which speeds up reverse and sort operations a lot. 11:40:05 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58780&oldid=58779 * B jonas * (+611) /* Four variables */ +Spare registers 11:53:19 -!- Essadon has joined. 12:07:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:07:34 wob_jonas: I'm tantalizingly close to getting it done with /two/ (without I/O, obviously) 12:08:40 wob_jonas: look at this: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/18.txt 12:09:20 being able to divmod by a Mersenne prime seems like the sort of basic construct which will be useful, although I haven't found a way to get from there to TCness yet 12:09:31 ais523: I won't look yet because I don't want it spoiled. I'm trying to think about this still. I'm already sure about the four variable construction, I just haven't documented it yet, and want to give a bit more thought to it. 12:09:48 I'm sure about three-without-I/O 12:10:19 btw, at some point we're going to have to move all the Blindfolded Arithmetic proofs onto subpages, I think 12:10:32 I never did post mine (because you're meant to keep it secret until someone cracks the language) 12:10:48 ais523: on the other hand, if this was a real machine, I'd recommend its creator to get rid of all the mechanism for multiply and divide, and put in a more useful but easier to implement instruction, say v_0 = (v_1 < 0) * v_2, and 12:11:00 come to think of it, I may as well post my proof for 6 12:11:37 here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic.md 12:11:51 then they can also have each instruction execute in constant time, which probably simplifies the control a bit (though probably not much because the instructions are on a rotating disk which is unpredictable anyway) 12:12:25 ais523: weren't you supposed to keep it secret until someone cracks the language OR one week passes, and the one week passed long ago? 12:12:48 yes, but if I mark it safe it'll be a winning entry, and the almost-crack that was posted is close enough that I don't want to win like that 12:13:03 disclosing my solution offsite seems like a reasonable workaround to that 12:14:07 ais523: two registers seems tricky, but I have an idea to get down to three registers, and I want to think about it before reading your spoilers 12:14:53 ais523: hmm, should I modify that solution to be entirely correct then so you can mark it as accepted? 12:15:27 I'm not sure, this is something of a grey area; I think that such an edit would be treated as equivalent to a golfing edit, thus disallowed 12:15:29 it's not hard, because his solution is similar to mine for five and four registers in general 12:15:39 you could post your own crack if it's substantially different from the existing one 12:15:53 but my solution wouldn't be substantially different 12:15:56 at least right now 12:15:59 actually, I had a second language in mind for that challenge 12:16:08 the problem is I never proved it I/O-complete (only Turing-complete) 12:16:25 I'm still using two stacks, and the details about how I store the state counter don't make much of a difference 12:16:47 in fact how I store the state counter is the main difference between the four register and five register solution 12:17:00 yes, that makes sense 12:17:46 while the fifth register helps me simplify my proof, the sixth doesn't, it only lets me write more efficient programs than is required for turing completeness 12:18:05 oh, and I also missed non-positive outputs at first, so I'll fix my description on the wiki for that 12:19:00 I already did 12:22:15 ais523: in the description, yes, but not in the compilation construction 12:22:43 ah right 12:22:58 that one needs special mention because me and the solver on golf SE both try to keep i always positive so that b = i / i; always works 12:23:29 which is convenient because at the start of the program, the other registers are zero, so we can't construct a nonzero number without i 12:24:36 this is not a problem of course, since we can do a conditional i = 1 - i then halt very quickly, but it still has to be mentioned 12:30:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:30:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:58:01 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58781&oldid=58780 * Ais523 * (+95) /* External links */ my own TCness proof 12:59:08 ais523: you can host that on the wiki 12:59:35 a proof for the wiki is definitely on topic there 12:59:38 um 12:59:43 a proof about an esolang's power 13:00:34 I know, but it's better to have it linked until someone gets around to translating it into MediaWiki syntax 13:00:51 (I've had bad experiences with automated Markdown → MediaWiki compilers) 13:01:07 ok. this one doesn't have much formatting so it should be easy. 13:21:39 -!- hogefuga has joined. 13:22:47 -!- hogefuga has left. 13:35:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:43:55 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58782&oldid=58781 * B jonas * (+5769) /* Proof of Turing-completeness */ Ais523's Turing-completeness proof 13:45:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:02:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:25:02 ais523: it seems that your six-register proof uses a control structure somewhat similar to mine, but you use three counters instead of two stacks, which simplifies the description 14:25:22 that is actually a good way to use six registers to get a simpler proof 14:25:46 even if it's not one I would prefer to give 14:27:23 and apparently you're using sequentially numbered states 14:35:01 yes, there was no real reason not to 14:35:19 three counters means that you can do the I/O encoding "inside" the system 14:35:29 sure, it may be more efficient than gotos all the time 14:35:31 which makes things much simpler 14:35:48 two or three or four stacks also mean that 14:35:58 then I can even do IO encoding bitwise 14:36:17 it gets a bit more complicated if I want nonpositive outputs, but not by much 14:36:39 anyway, I should go to bed really, or at least try 14:36:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 14:36:51 I'll document that part, and the four register construction, and try to think about the three registers 15:06:51 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:19:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:19:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 15:33:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:34:57 -!- Soni has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:32:14 -!- imode has joined. 16:33:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:36:22 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:14:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:19:30 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58783&oldid=58782 * B jonas * (-7) /* Compiling individual steps */ 18:31:45 `? manowar 18:31:46 manowar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:31:47 `? samovar 18:31:48 samovar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:32:43 `? scorpan 18:32:44 scorpan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:32:47 `? sub-zero 18:32:48 sub-zero? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:34:10 `? scorpion 18:34:11 scorpion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:18:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:19:39 -!- Soni has joined. 19:19:44 `? berenstein 19:19:45 berenstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:47 `? beranstein 19:19:48 beranstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:51 `? bearenstein 19:19:52 bearenstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:57 `? berenstain 19:19:58 berenstain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:20:00 `? beranstain 19:20:02 beranstain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:20:11 -!- Soni has quit (Client Quit). 19:20:20 ``` echo wisdom/b*r*st*n* 19:20:21 wisdom/b*r*st*n* 19:22:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:05:39 `? economy 20:05:40 economy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:06:59 economy explains why the goods and services you buy are low quality and overpriced, and removes all your hope that you'll ever be able to buy high quality goods or services for cheap 20:09:40 Do you think there may come a time when microSD cards become so cheap that nobody will bother printing manuals or labels to anything, they'll just tape on a microSD card? 20:13:05 -!- Soni has joined. 20:24:18 It won't help, since then you will need a computer that can read the file, and the electricity to run the computer (it won't work during a power outage, even if you do have a suitable computer). 20:24:20 I'm not sure it'd be EU regulation compliant 20:24:27 (also, I hope not) 20:25:40 zzo38: we'll have mobile phones that can read the file. 20:26:00 perhaps it won't exactly be microSD, but some other form of digital data storage. 20:26:05 Luciole: not yet. 20:26:13 No, you might not. And even if you do the battery might run out. 20:27:00 why distribute a microSD card if you can just print a QR code that leads to a website with relevant manuals etc 20:27:03 zzo38: for those cases, the store might have some devices fixed on the wall, just like how some big supermarkets today have self-serving barcode readers connected to the shop inventory computers to tell the price of any item from a barcode 20:27:13 and then you can just scan it with your phone in the supermarket 20:27:18 kinda surprised that isn't a thing already 20:27:21 maybe it is.. 20:28:24 b_jonas: Yes, that could work. It may help if you want to read the manual before opening the box, but it should not substitute for manuals and visible price tags, I should think 20:29:14 zzo38: sure, if there needs to be information printed outside the box, that can happen too. or that can be replaced by a microSD card too. 20:29:46 of course it gets hairy when every leaf of ten pills in a pharmaeutical must have the exact type and expiry date printed on it 20:29:56 presumably it won't replace everything 20:30:00 just some of the larger manuals 20:30:14 the largest ones are already distributed on CDs, mind you 20:30:44 a CD is still cheaper than an SD card, but only by a factor of 2 or 4 20:30:51 no wait 20:30:57 more like a factor of 5 or 10 20:31:53 Not all of the information can fit on the outside of the box. Some information can be printed there, but perhaps can help to use this microSD so that you can access information that is not printed on the box because it does not fit. Although probably there should still be some manual, unless it is needing for a computer program that has the built-in manual that is suitable 20:32:00 but a CD, even a small size CD, is too large 20:36:09 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 20:50:09 `? one ring 20:50:11 One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them 21:13:24 ? ballpeen 21:13:26 ? ballpen 21:13:30 `? ballpoint pen 21:13:32 ballpoint pen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:37 `? ballpen 21:13:38 ballpen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:38 `? ballpeen 21:13:39 ballpeen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:35:56 `? ground water 21:35:57 ground water? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:36:07 how fine is it ground? 21:37:54 ground water is water ground to a fine powder 21:42:03 `? spring 21:42:04 `? string 21:42:06 spring? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:07 string? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:16:56 ais523: another question is whether Blindfolded Arithmetic is still TC without multiplication, if you allow a large enough number of registers 22:49:56 b_jonas: it seems so; division is really powerful. For example, one can multiply x by a in {1,2} using the expression (x+x)/(3-a), which covers the translations of push. 22:55:42 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:09:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:11:34 int-e: the hard part is how to do conditionals 23:32:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:52:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 2018-12-22: 00:04:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:25:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:37:50 -!- MDude has joined. 00:50:51 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 00:50:51 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:55:58 `le/rn ground water//Ground water is water ground to a fine powder. 00:56:00 Learned 'ground water': Ground water is water ground to a fine powder. 00:56:15 hm should have used `# there 00:56:28 (it's pretty much what i invented it for) 01:17:33 `? `# 01:17:35 ​`# //` is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn. 01:17:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:18:21 `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`' 01:18:22 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. \ 6) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 01:19:07 `' 01:19:07 196) ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid 01:19:28 why did the other one return 4 quotes? 01:19:31 wat 01:19:46 `cat bin/# 01:19:47 sep='//`' \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `# '"$sep"'' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ nur "${1#*$sep}" 01:20:06 `# comment//`echo hi 01:20:08 hi 01:20:17 `# comment//`# comment//`echo hi 01:20:17 hi 01:20:31 `cat bin/' 01:20:31 ​#!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi 01:20:33 oh hm 01:21:26 `cat bin/nur 01:21:26 ​"${1%% *}" "${1#* }" 01:21:30 `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`' 01:21:31 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. \ 6) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 01:21:44 ... same 4 comments?! 01:22:05 `# comment//`# comment//`' 01:22:06 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. \ 6) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 01:22:43 `` comment " " 01:22:44 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: comment: command not found 01:22:55 `` \' " " 01:22:56 1) EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... More practice is in order. \ 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 5) His body should be gi 01:23:26 `` \' \' 01:23:26 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. \ 6) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 01:25:21 `nur `' 01:25:21 ​/hackenv/bin/nur: line 1: `': command not found 01:25:36 `nur ' 01:25:36 3) that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) His body should be given to science. He's alive :P Even so. \ 6) what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? 01:25:39 ic 01:25:46 `nur echo 01:25:47 echo 01:25:58 it fails if there's no space to split on 01:26:51 `# comment//`quote 01:26:52 27) i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 64) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 70) let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 123) Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). \ 172) My quotes are boring \ 232) 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet! 01:27:00 neat. 01:27:15 `quote 124 01:27:16 124) I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense. 01:27:39 it is possible quote 64 was once numbered higher 01:28:17 60 deleted quotes seems unlikely though 01:28:44 i dunno, there used to be a lot of pruning 01:29:00 '232 looks like an accidental forward reference 01:30:06 and the first quotes were somewhat lower average quality, i think, _and_ have had more chances to get pruned. 01:30:22 perhaps 01:30:35 you probably know better than I do anyway 01:31:13 `` doat quotes | grep 'not actually true' 01:31:15 No output. 01:31:21 probably too old 01:31:32 hm... 01:31:42 -!- xkapastel has joined. 01:31:42 it's only log_{0.9}(63/123) decimations anyway :P 01:31:45 `hurl quotes 01:31:45 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes 01:31:55 > logBase 0.9 (63/123) 01:31:57 6.350098277363425 01:32:41 hm that's not a good link to find the first revision... 01:32:57 `` hg cat -r 1 quotes | paste 01:32:58 https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.28150 01:33:21 `` hg cat -r 1 quotes | nl | paste 01:33:23 https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.21965 01:33:26 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/1/quotes ? 01:33:36 OKAY 01:34:06 seems to have been no. 82 back then. 01:36:14 also, the pruning standard is to display before pruning at most one. 01:36:22 what 01:36:30 also, the pruning standard is to display 5 quotes before pruning at most one. 01:36:44 i have no idea what happened to those words which i'm sure i typed 01:38:00 time travel 01:38:09 `cat bin/nur 01:38:10 ​"${1%% *}" "${1#* }" 01:44:20 . o O ( grep -q \ <<<"$1" && "$1" || "${1%% *}" "${1#* }" ) 01:46:09 ... I messed that up :) 01:46:40 yuck, also isn't that going to fail if "$1" exits nonzero 01:47:00 yes. 01:47:51 `edit bin/nur 01:47:52 https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/bin/nur 01:48:02 So some proper conditional is in order. 01:58:49 `mkx nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi 01:58:51 nur 01:58:55 `nur echo 01:58:56 echo 01:59:14 hm still wrong 01:59:21 oh 01:59:23 `revert 01:59:24 Done. 01:59:33 `mkx bin/nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi 01:59:34 bin/nur 01:59:39 `nur echo 01:59:39 echo 01:59:45 `cat bin/nur 01:59:46 if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi 02:00:09 `nur echo hi 02:00:11 ​/hackenv/bin/nur: line 1: echo hi: command not found 02:00:23 hm i guess it's backwards 02:00:51 `mkx bin/nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; else "$1"; fi 02:00:53 bin/nur 02:01:00 `nur echo 02:01:01 No output. 02:01:03 `nur echo hi 02:01:04 hi 02:01:24 `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`' 02:01:25 285) ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON 02:10:40 oerjan: Hah, when I wrote "I messed that up" I meant I meant the polarity of the condition. 02:23:15 aha 02:44:28 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:52:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 03:26:28 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 03:32:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:36:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:52:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:06:01 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:51:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:11:24 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:25:39 Houtei is more common in Washizu mahjong I think. At least in my experience it is. Since, it is possible to control it. 07:25:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:40:51 -!- grumble has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))). 07:41:55 -!- grumble has joined. 08:04:51 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58784&oldid=58758 * Ais523 * (+967) /* Truth-machine */ defining truth-machines without interactive I/O is an interesting conceptual problem 08:14:40 -!- nchambers has joined. 09:18:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 09:35:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:55:18 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 10:12:36 -!- tromp has joined. 10:17:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:37:10 -!- tromp has joined. 10:39:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:15:22 @metar CYYB 11:15:23 CYYB 221100Z AUTO 32021G26KT 9SM -SN OVC017 M10/M11 A2952 RMK SLP021 11:16:29 @metar EGLL 11:16:29 EGLL 221050Z AUTO 24010KT 9999 NCD 11/07 Q1016 NOSIG 11:16:42 +11, -11, that's just a difference of one character. 11:21:24 @metar lowi 11:21:24 LOWI 221050Z 08006KT 030V130 9999 FEW060 BKN100 06/04 Q1017 NOSIG 11:40:35 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:21:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:21:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 12:21:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:56:17 -!- b_jonas has joined. 13:12:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:22:29 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:24:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:31:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:36:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:51:21 darn! neighbor is listening to music very loud again 13:51:45 if only I had a volume setting on my washing machine, I could turn it up on these occasions 13:53:24 also when I want to wash large items or lots of clothing at the same time, now that I think of it 14:03:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:08:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:11:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:32:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:34:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:34:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:35:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:37:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:43:38 `? prime minister of missiles 15:43:39 prime minister of missiles? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:46:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:49:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:00:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:03:33 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:22:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:28:23 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58785&oldid=58784 * Oerjan * (+160) See [[Truth-machine]] 16:30:09 @metar ENVA 16:30:09 ENVA 221620Z 07006KT 9999 BKN047 M02/M08 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 11009KT 16:37:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:52 -!- hexfive has joined. 17:20:13 [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58786&oldid=43928 * Pgimeno * (+478) /* Boolean circuits? */ new section 17:21:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:23:11 -!- grumble has changed nick to SeasonsGreetings. 17:37:15 -!- moony has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))). 17:37:29 -!- moony has joined. 18:10:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:10:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:12:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:14:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:21:15 -!- derpy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:22:43 -!- derpy has joined. 18:24:13 -!- tromp has joined. 18:45:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:00:19 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:03:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:17:58 -!- nchambers has joined. 19:38:54 -!- SeasonsGreetings has changed nick to SeasonsBeatings. 19:52:14 [[Re:direction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58787 * Ais523 * (+10009) new language 19:53:00 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58788&oldid=58679 * Ais523 * (+29) /* B */ +[[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] 19:53:28 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58789&oldid=58788 * Ais523 * (+19) /* R */ +[[Re:direction]] 19:53:52 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58790&oldid=58777 * Ais523 * (+18) +[[Re:direction]] 19:55:00 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58791&oldid=58787 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ grammar 19:55:41 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:03:09 [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58792&oldid=58786 * Ais523 * (+1265) /* Boolean circuits? */ you can do a planar XOR swap with actual circuitry 20:14:43 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 20:20:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:44:09 -!- SeasonsBeatings has changed nick to SeasonsGreetings. 20:49:51 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 22:18:42 -!- nchambers has joined. 22:30:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:41:53 -!- imode has joined. 22:59:56 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 23:18:40 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 23:19:30 Do you have any ideas about use of a bite and breath attack together in a role playing system such as GURPS? 23:25:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:29:47 * LKoen is now imagining a vampire with bad breath 23:42:45 I do not mean simply bad breath but if you have a breath attack such as spit poison or fire 2018-12-23: 00:31:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:35:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:37:15 -!- FreeFull has joined. 02:00:09 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:14:58 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 03:33:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:36:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:57:38 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:59:08 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:02:05 -!- Camto has joined. 04:08:02 -!- Camto has quit (Quit: Page closed). 04:24:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 04:24:57 zzo38: like a dragon? 04:25:16 or a hellhound that breathes fire? 04:27:57 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:28:40 I've got this weird idea for a fusion of a programming language, editor and database. the premise is that it's based on combinatory logic, but instead of you typing in expressions and evaluating them, combinators are "unevaluated" until you navigate to the branch you want to evaluate and hit "eval". 04:29:06 and you traverse/construct the expression tree like you were navigating a filesystem. 04:49:33 b_jonas: Those are some examples 05:09:37 -!- nfd has joined. 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:13:05 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:21:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:34:10 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 05:56:40 -!- moony has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))). 05:56:59 -!- moony has joined. 06:35:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:10:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:34:47 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pop MAXXXIM * New user account 08:03:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:25:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:30:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58793&oldid=58760 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+168) /* Introductions */ 09:30:30 [[LolKek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+1427) Created page with "LolKek - . ..." 09:35:01 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58795&oldid=58789 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+13) /* L */ 09:35:56 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58796&oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3) 09:44:29 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58797&oldid=58796 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+783) 09:48:10 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58798&oldid=58797 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+78) 10:03:11 -!- b_jonas has joined. 10:07:39 [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58799&oldid=56198 * ZM * (+47) Related languages 10:17:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 11:08:42 -!- FreeFull has joined. 11:34:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:04:51 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:15:35 [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58800&oldid=58792 * Ais523 * (+125) /* Boolean circuits? */ sig 12:43:16 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 13:02:05 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:08:55 -!- imode has joined. 14:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:15:41 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:20:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:29:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:30:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 15:01:45 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:10:57 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dirkdev98 * New user account 15:13:19 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58801&oldid=58793 * Dirkdev98 * (+124) /* Introductions */ 15:25:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:28:40 too we seriously need a policy that articles must be in english... 15:28:44 *do 15:29:06 oerjan: I disagree. we should accept articles in other languages too. 15:33:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:34:15 *sigh* 15:36:01 i take it you understand LolKek perfectly, then. 15:36:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:36:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:36:34 i suspect it has limited byte size... 15:38:11 b_jonas: i mean, the language doesn't even look russian-themed, the command themselves are english-based 15:38:16 *commands 15:38:26 it's just the specification. 15:38:56 oerjan: "english-based"? no, those are just assembly mnemonics, the actual commands are single bytes with the bits shown on the right 15:39:43 but even if they were named, so what? have you seen localized Excel or Logo? they're horrible 15:40:24 it makes sense to have command mnemonics in English. I mean, think about it, there's not even any sane Hungarian words for "stack", "hash", "deque", and those are just the basics, it gets worse after that when you want loops or something 15:41:03 oerjan: there's a good reason why that one too has docs that calls a stack "стек" 15:41:27 oh i didn't notice the bits, they were almost beyond the scrollbar 15:41:46 mind you, I hate languages like this, stack-based and have arithmetic operations but no comparison 15:41:59 you know, like Blindfolded arithmetics 15:48:37 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58802&oldid=58791 * Oerjan * (+5) fix link 15:49:47 -!- MDude has joined. 16:07:11 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58803&oldid=58801 * Oerjan * (+0) *beglmru* 16:09:24 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58804&oldid=58803 * Oerjan * (-30) Oops 16:21:46 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58805&oldid=58802 * Oerjan * (-5) typo 16:28:12 -!- nchambers has joined. 16:30:13 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 17:23:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:29:08 -!- xkapastel has joined. 17:34:07 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:22:59 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 18:50:46 If you know their meaning in English then you should write the article in English too 18:51:16 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:58:49 Also, the categories will still need to be English even if the article itself isn't. 19:02:31 zzo38: it's not worth for such stupid articles. am I supposed to write good articles on all the brainfuck substitutions too? 19:03:22 if it was something worthwhile, I might document it. I did so with some languages that weren't yet summarized in the esowiki. 19:10:08 hi, if my language expertise is of any use, I’m here 19:13:50 yeah seems it isn’t Russian-based, but the description is too terse but it doesn’t seem anything special, just stacks, variables, arithmetic, (bitwise?) logic, delay (what for? but ok) and two strange things named “increment/decrement of the stack by k4” — IDK what it means 19:15:22 arseniiv: stacks of limited capacity too 19:15:27 VERY limited 19:15:36 so limited it's basically pointless 19:15:45 oh, so it’s even Turing-incomplete 19:15:55 what a shame :D :( 19:16:05 arseniiv: I'm not claiming that. it may have some stuff other than the stack that stores data 19:16:11 I don't quite understand what it says 19:16:50 BTW have you someone know about algebraic effects? I read about them several months ago and they seemed very beautiful to me 19:17:50 yeah you guess right, let me translate, it definitely states the following at the start of the description: 19:21:55 OK, you don't have to do, the 19:22:11 > Stack — the main stack, 64 levels [I think it’s not a usual word here, but it should mean the maximal length is 64], with 32-bit value [each level has a 32-bit value, it probably means] 19:22:11 > Stack2 — the additional stack, 32 levels, 32-bit values 19:22:11 > variables — 14 in total, with 32-bit values 19:22:15 :1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 19:22:15 :1:30: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 19:22:15 :1:16: error: parse error on input ‘in’ 19:22:33 oh sorry lambdabot, I didn’t mean that 19:22:44 @botsnack 19:22:44 :) 19:23:06 fungot: do you have a as well? 19:23:06 int-e: for the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i have is sharing the community of fnord, the home of the other channel 4 creative and fnord industries, most fnord junction and areas to be police blind. the 19%, the state, leaving the people with the expertise. 19:23:31 arseniiv: a stack of depth 64. seems normal, given that stacks are supposedly illustrated by stacks of plates in elegant buffets moved by a spring so that the top plate is always at the same heigth 19:23:46 I couldn’t quite place where the author means to take non-zero values for variables (are Incr/Decr for that), though 19:24:07 I don't think any buffet actually uses such spring mechanism these days, but it's a nice image nevertheless. 19:25:27 yeah, I think “levels” there mean stack cells, there is no sane alternatives, but the author could word it more normally as “стек глубины 64”, literally “of depth 64” 19:25:49 a buffet image is interesting, I haven’t heard of it :) 19:26:29 though I don’t remember what image was supposed to illustrate stacks when I first read about them 19:26:48 Is "стек" an authentic transcription? 19:27:38 yeah, there is an alternative стэк, but it is worse and it’s not normative I think 19:27:38 arseniiv: yeah, it's a pity there's no good Hungarian translation for "stack", especially not one that doesn't just sound like a "heap", not even counting the ambiguity where "heap" means two completely different things in algorithms 19:27:47 the state of art is "verem". :-( 19:28:17 and that's typical for all the mathematics terminology. it works well in English and even better in French, but very few people care about making it work in Hungarian. 19:28:25 especially these days. 19:28:52 IOW, nobody likes Hungarian notation. 19:29:03 there’s an inconvenience with Russian е that usually it makes the preceding consonant palatalized, but in loanwords it usually doesn’t. There’s э for that, but a small set of loanwords uses it for that 19:29:35 so стек is easier on the eyes, however irregular it really is 19:30:21 I did expect 'э'. But I guess 'styek' is close enough. I agree it's easier on the eyes. 19:30:42 And closer to actual russian words. 19:31:12 In the end it is what it is. 19:31:35 b_jonas: oh, you remind me of поток, which could mean stream or thread. So some people used to translate the latter literally as нить. These days I think people got accustomed to homonymy 19:31:44 My New Year's resolution is my New Year's resolution. https://xkcd.com/703/ 19:32:01 maybe it's a steak. though how you can push and pull 32-bit values on a steak, I don't know 19:32:50 int-e: meh, once you get used to the crazy English homonyms, all the others seem tame 19:33:15 especially of fields. English maths terminology does borrow from german occasionally, so why didn't they just say "corpse" or "corps" or something? 19:33:15 A steak is plenty enough for more than 8 nibbles. 19:33:18 int-e: do note however that it’s read as /stek/, without palatalization (I may have worded that unclearly) 19:34:06 www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html#d.2015-03-20.2284 surely I have linked to this piece of writing about English used for maths articles, right? 19:34:12 arseniiv: it didn't get across but I think that's my fault, not yours. 19:35:29 okay :) 19:35:34 arseniiv: meh, since I do read some Hungarian texts, I'm totally used to english loanwords being spelled with random english spellings, that NEVER GET CHANGED OVER TO SANE PHONETIC SPELLINGS, ever, not even when the word is obviously nativized and everyone knows it, 19:35:51 like how people still spell "ímél" as "e-mail", 19:36:14 and the fucking Academy is such a pushover that they even officially allow the latter as a valid alternative in their spelling rules, 19:36:46 probably because they're afraid that if they didn't do so, sysadmins would get angry at them, and sysadmins being angry with you is the right kind of thing to fear. those guys hold lots of power. 19:36:49 we should stick to tradition and say "electronic mail" and "idiotic phone" as we used to. 19:37:56 :D 19:45:45 I don’t like typical Russian attitude to language norm, it’s too strict, people untaught in linguistics proper often believe there can/should be only one correct word spelling or punctuation in a sentence, or that a normative language should be used not only in special places but everywhere, sometimes it gets horrible. I hope the future attitude to Russian language would be more free, and also less commas in the punctuation rules. Cu 19:45:45 rrently there is a plethora of purely syntactic commas which do not clarify the meaning, and in several cases they even obscure it as there is a comma after every word (meh). Then on the internets people often write without punctuation at all, as its rules are too complex, and get incoherent 19:46:03 (I’m biased though) 19:48:11 arseniiv: ah, prescriptionists 19:48:29 wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those? 19:48:49 "I will say, that a man must be a d—d fool, who can’t spell a word more than one way." -- https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/25/spelling/ tracking down a quote often attributed to Mark Twain. 19:48:53 the Hungarian rules for commas make much more sense than the English ones. I don't understand how you could get anything worse than the random "rules" people use for English 19:49:33 b_jonas: yeah them 19:49:58 what? 19:50:08 In English, most commas are a matter of style, not rules. 19:50:54 @google "Oxford comma" 19:50:55 https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is-the-oxford-comma-and-why-do-people-care-so-much-about-it/ 19:52:18 yeah, I may be exaggerating a bit about the Hungarian rules 19:52:19 but still 19:52:39 . o O ( People have, said that there is no way a comma, can ever be, wrong in English. But people are often wr,ong. ) 19:53:35 wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those? => I meant here those that surround a syntagm or something sufficietly syntagm-like, for several syntagm types these commas are almost obligatory, for example for postpositive participle phrases (if I mean it right) consisting of not a participle only 19:54:37 also there are many idiosyncratic exceptions almost to every rule, spelling and punctuation alike 19:55:21 arseniiv: yeah. like the rule about the comma with certain common conjunctions in Hungarian. those things are crazy. 19:55:27 it's only the inter-clause commas that have sane rules. 19:55:28 b_jonas> what? => I mean, prescriptionists 19:56:36 I myself don’t like some ways to (ab)use language, sometimes even hate, but I don’t want to prescribe my feelings to anyone. At least for now 19:57:10 arseniiv: You have to underatand: How can we have our lives governed by computers if there are no strict rules to follow? 19:58:01 arseniiv: oh, you mean the people who think spell checkers are always right? both the ones with the american dictionary and the british dictionary? 19:58:28 or the Hungarian dictionaries that try to tell you that Hungarian inflection is deterministic? 19:59:23 b_jonas: oh, about conjunctions I can give an interesting example: да when it used as a synonym to и, is written without a comma (as и (and) does, in default case), but with a comma preceding when it’s synonymous to но (but), as does the latter 20:00:50 I mean, I thought people would just figure out from just listening to native speakers inflecting nouns just how random it is and how different people inflect the same uncommon or rare or mythic rare words entirely differently, 20:00:57 but no. 20:02:00 there's certainly some crazy logic to how inflections are formed, because it's one of the main cues how anyone can easily recognize a non-native speaker in Hungarian, even if he's been living here for ten years and has the perfect accent and a large vocabulary 20:02:32 normal people's minds are just not made to imitate the crazy contrievances that native Hungarian speakers use to accept some inflected forms and reject others 20:04:08 b_jonas: hehe yes. Also we are taught in schools about three noun declensions, then latter there are several (unnumbered) declension types, but the truth that there are much more than these (albeit they are encountered rarely, I presume) remains uncovered 20:04:27 oh I was typing too slowly 20:04:39 it was about prescriptionists 20:05:25 I think you could make a multiple choice test of just inflecting nouns in hungarian that detects native speakers 20:06:29 -!- rain2 has joined. 20:07:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:08:44 `grWp doctor 20:08:46 boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ dwfo:DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, . \ semmelweis:Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousa 20:09:56 (my mind found "doctor" in the vicinity of "prescriptionist") 20:13:41 int-e: they have to be. 20:13:52 also there is a phenomenon of orthoepy, prescriptions about word stress. Russian stress is very wild (and certainly is a problem to non-native learners) for historic reasons, and stress of many word forms is for a long time is in state of flux, but there are people saying that these words should be accented this way and no other, it’s even worse than written-language prescriptionism. They aren’t even consciously aware of what rules s 20:13:52 tress does actually follow (and it isn’t taught in schools, because for what reason? natives accentuate almost all words the same way, there’s nothing to teach), and they don’t like something, psh 20:16:15 arseniiv: yeah, it's one of those historical raisins thing where the stress rules make sense until a lot of signals that determined stress, like a four times larger vowel inventory than today, was still there in the words to give you a clue about where the stress should fall 20:16:22 typical linguistic evolution 20:16:36 yeah 20:17:39 ah yes, exceptional words like "kisebb", "lesz", "köpeny", "szőlő", which many people pronounce differently from how they're written, so the spelling has to be specifically taught in school 20:18:20 hope there aren’t so many of them 20:18:33 in Hungarian, I mean 20:19:39 arseniiv: there didn't use to be, until people started spelling every word borrowed from English, like ímél and fájl, the English way 20:19:44 and there's just more and more of those words 20:20:12 oh so there’s a certain blessing in having non-latin script 20:21:41 yes 20:29:58 just like you said about the stack 20:30:04 spelled totally regular 20:30:30 . o O ( "spelt" ) 20:32:48 I have thought that 'full and 'null rhyme, poor me 20:57:17 oh, um, have someone added a language to Try it online? 21:12:57 I had idea of this kind of parsing: The parsing table is an array of cells, each is either blank or a pair of a symbol (a terminal or nonterminal) and action (either a return value or another address). If the symbol is a terminal and it matches, do the action and advance the input; if the symbol is a nonterminal, push the current address to call stack and jump to the address of the nonterminal. 21:14:12 If the action is a return value, add that value to the output and then pop from call stack and do the action specified there. If the action is another address, you jump to that address. If a blank is reached, then you must back track. 21:14:28 zzo38: I don't know what the question is, but ask ais523 21:15:13 My question is how to optimize the grammar and generate an optimized parser table from it? 21:16:33 -!- derpy has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:16:53 -!- derpy has joined. 21:28:32 One thing to do is that it will be a context-free grammar and must be made proper. 21:34:50 Some kind of optimizations that would be possible includes that subtables can be merged if they are same or if one is a suffix of the other one (so that some possible symbols are not possible in one of the cases). Also to consider merging meaning codes of terminal symbols, to reduce the size of the parse table. 21:34:55 zzo38: is this different to LALR parsing? 21:35:04 it sounds very similar 21:35:12 maybe you can just use the LALR algorithm 21:35:45 Is it? LALR doesn't have back tracking, isn't it? 21:41:28 LALR parsing tables also are working differently than what I mentioned, I think. 21:53:51 ah 22:11:59 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 22:14:04 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:25:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:56:13 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58806&oldid=58805 * Ais523 * (+96) /* Hello world program */ switch to Esolang, not TIO, capitalisation 22:57:26 [[Re:direction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58807&oldid=58806 * Ais523 * (+83) /* External resources */ TIO link 22:58:52 [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58808&oldid=58785 * Ais523 * (+196) /* Truth-machine */ OK, this is correct then 23:00:56 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58809&oldid=58807 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ typo fix 23:02:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:03:19 zzo38: real parsers use something quite similar to your mechanism, but it has to be more complex because the way that a terminal is translated to a value often depends on context 23:04:50 I'm not sure how you'd determine which cell of the table to use in your mechanism; after backtracking you'd have to somehow reach a different cell the next time 23:05:00 so in that case, the choice of cell has to depend on context 23:05:25 I think the result once you do that will end up fairly close to either LR(1), LALR, or GLR; I'm not sure if it will be exactly the same 23:15:06 After backtracking you try the cell immediately after the one you have used before (it may be blank, in which case you have to backtrack again). 23:17:12 oh hey! I successfully summoned ais523 from wherever he's hiding behind the logs. that's so rare!@ 23:18:05 zzo38: oh, I see 23:19:03 is that just recursive descent? 23:21:18 I suppose it is similar, although includes the possibility to undo tokens that have already been accepted. 23:23:03 I think you can do that in recursive descent too if the language naturally has backtracking 23:23:11 e.g. parsers in Prolog commonly use recursive descent 23:28:46 on another subject: is a TCness proof (without I/O) for Blindfolded Arithmetic on two variables total, X starting at 1, Y starting at 0; I linked it so that people can avoid spoilers if they want to 23:29:19 although it is, probably unsurprisingly, ridiculously inefficient 23:29:35 I was a little surprised by which language I ended up implementing 23:35:25 ais523: does ghc use it to parse the contradictory fixity statements that affect where the invisible braces are earlier in the code? or is that using a sat solver? 23:35:45 ais523: whoa, two variables proved? wow 23:35:54 I'll definitely not look at it yet 23:36:03 I want to figure out how three variables are possible. 23:36:40 three was so much easier because you had a temporary 23:36:54 with two you have to go the really long way round to get anywhere :-( 23:36:58 ais523: well yes, that's sort of the point. with enough temporaries, it becomes trivial 23:37:15 I mean, for just storing data, obviously just one bigint is more than enough 23:37:47 my current idea is to use a base 4 deque that we try to access from both sides, but I'm not sure it really works with just three variables 23:42:16 that base 4 deque example reminds me a lot of High Rise 23:42:58 I mean, if four variables can emulate two stacks, then maybe one variable can emulate one stack that's not really a stack 23:44:53 but it gets ugly, because you need to preserve a power of two variable around the loop an arbitrary number of times 23:45:34 unless you want something limited to like 2**32 stack elements, because you could totally do that because Blindfolded can square powers of two in one operation, so surely it can generate any power of two up to 2**32 in O(32) operations 23:46:02 but you wouldn't call that Turing-complete, right? it would be sufficient for me to claim the language can practically do anything, but you keep me straight about those things 23:46:13 yes, I would call that a bounded-storage machine 23:46:26 which is one of those computational classes which is practically very useful but theoretically not very interesting (other than the issues with defining it) 23:46:52 that's what led to me thinking deeper about Consumer society (it didn't have that name yet) to figure out if it can actually emulate a RAM machine that can theoretically grow arbitrarily big, 23:47:19 as opposed to just emulate one that can grow to a limit in a few consecutive up arrows from the code size 23:47:40 and yes it can, but it's harder than just the up arrow construction, and that's what makes it an interesting language 23:48:22 just a turing machine or just a fixed size RAM is easy, but you can put them together, which is why Consumer society is so magical that I have to document it before someone figures out what the language is from all the hints I've been dropping 23:49:09 I got the idea that Consumer society is obviously TC but not obviously efficiently TC 23:49:39 it's sort of the reverse, at least to my way of thinking 23:50:20 it can obviously emulate a 32-bit memory, or even a 64-bit memory (I mean, you just double the code size or something), but the TC was a surprise to me 23:50:45 it's that thing where if you make something powerful enough, it automatically becomes TC. you have to do difficult stuff to STOP it from being TC. 23:51:04 also, seeing a partially uncapitalised proper noun bothers me, I guess this is why so many people miscapitalise brainfuck 23:51:59 I don't buy the british concept of capitalizing everything 23:52:20 why would real wizards write "Quidditch" with a capital? it's an ordinary proper noun. and "Apparition" too? 23:52:25 well, "proper nouns use capital letters" is a grammar rule of English in much the same way as "plurals normally end in s" is 23:52:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:52:51 that screams of it being narrated from an outside perspective where they're not ordinary common words, but practically HP trademarks in our worls 23:53:07 and it's not like HP started that, Winnie the Pooh is full of that stuff too 23:53:24 the original version has way more capitalized words than Karinthy's translation 23:54:52 one reason to capitalise a term in English is that it's a technical term that has been introduced for a specific context, as a clue that you've redefined the word away from its normal meaning 23:55:23 e.g. when we play Mafia, "day" refers to a 24-hour real-life period, "Day" to a simulated day within the game's internal timescale (which doesn't normally run in realtime) 23:55:32 yeah, because quidditch wouldn't stand out as an obviously made up word otherwise 23:56:26 sports tend to only get a lowercase name once they become really popular 23:56:54 like extreme ironing? 23:56:54 I think chess may be close to the borderline, the initial C tends to hover between uppercase and lowercase depending on who you ask 23:57:04 hmm, that's a better example 23:57:23 extreme ironing is a descriptive name, rather than an organised activity 23:57:31 if you capitalised it I'd expect there to be a formal ruleset written down somewhere 23:57:53 yeah 23:58:11 the truth of the matter is simply that Hungarian has totally different and weird rules for capitalization, and I'm used to them 23:58:21 e.g. the Extreme Ironing World Championships has capital letters, unsurprisingly 23:59:07 and even though some of them are really stupid, I prefer it over capitalizing every instance of "Monday" as if it wasn't a common name for the day of week concept that existed for OVER FOUR THOUSAND YEARS but got its name later 23:59:11 seriously, "Monday"? 23:59:25 I mean, "August" I can get behind, if the legends about a certain roman emperor are true 23:59:44 he's in like the top few most successful historical figures of Europe 2018-12-24: 00:00:01 (the actual ranking depends on how you define Europe and whether Mohammed and Jesus counts as such) 00:00:02 b_jonas: the days of the week are mostly named after Norse deities 00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:09 although Monday is an exception, that's named after the Moon 00:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:00:35 yeah, that's sort of a better explanation 00:00:43 Wednesday named after Odin, yeah, that makes sense 00:00:49 (and the Moon has a capital M because we're talking about Earth's Moon in particular, i.e. it's a proper name for it; lowercase "moon" could refer to any natural satellite of anything) 00:00:53 yeah 00:01:29 I don't know why those are called "moon" or "satellite" by the way. the russians totally invented them, they should be called sputniks even in English. 00:02:18 I think Sputnik was the name of a particular line of artificial satellites (which is famous due to being the first), and people weren't expecting the name to continue through to all satellites in the future 00:02:24 it'd be like calling all moon landers apollos 00:03:08 um, isn't it basically a common noun for artificial satellites in sane languages? 00:03:16 not in English 00:03:35 as for moon landers, aren't ALL of the ones that carried humans actually called "Apollo"? 00:03:37 we'd interpret "Sputnik" as referring to the first artificial satellite (or one closely related), whatever the capitalisation 00:03:46 the first line, I think 00:04:02 but I think it used to be a common noun for a few decades until the Americans forced it out of common use somehow 00:04:11 and yes, I think all the moon landers which carried humans were in the Apollo series, but we wouldn't expect the same name to be used for future moon landers 00:04:19 all the old books call them sputnik, at least on the east side of the Iron Curtain 00:05:02 Wiktionary's definition of "sputnik" says that the reference to the series of Soviet satellites is "historical", and the more general usage is "dated" 00:05:33 yeah, maybe it lasted for longer on this side of the iron curtain 00:05:49 where we didn't have american trends about what words are "dated" and what are "trendy" until like 1990 00:06:01 or more like 2002 when the internet came around 00:06:12 or Hollywood films 00:09:56 and Wiktionary explains that by "historical" it means a current word that describes something that no longer exists, thus the word is only useful when talking about the past 00:10:21 yeah 00:10:22 it's sad 00:10:31 although one example they give for that is "phlogiston", which never did exist in the first place 00:10:32 I'd prefer if we called them sputniks 00:10:52 isn't phlogiston just oxygen after a sign change? 00:11:31 I mean, it's like electric charge, supposedly since Franklin didn't get corrected by a time traveler, is electrons after a sign change? 00:20:09 -!- moony has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))). 00:20:28 -!- moony has joined. 00:21:18 At least, an explanation of phlogiston that I have read in one book seems to match what you suggest. 00:25:16 nah, the explanation I read is that it was just a measurement error 00:26:23 phlogiston was "proved" by someone burning something in an airtight enclosure, and measuring that it becomes lighter when it's burned, so they proclaimed that flogiston is a magical material that has particles so fine that it can leak out through whatever glass enclosure they used, because obviously they didn't have modern plastic for that like we do 00:26:44 it turns out that their enclosure just wasn't as airtight as they believe, and some air did leak out 00:26:52 which is why the scale measured it lighter 00:27:59 I read a different thing than that in a different book, though. 00:28:06 hmm 00:28:14 maybe what I read wasn't entirely trustworthy 00:28:26 we had all sorts of stupid things in pop science books back when I was young 00:28:40 UNLIKE NOW WHEN EVERYTHING WE READ ON THE INTERNET IS A HUNDRED PERCENT [3~TRUE 00:29:19 I mean, I literally had a pop science book that told obviously false stuff about tides, and less obviously false stuff about a bicycle, for more than a decade before I realized how stupid that one is 00:29:42 the phlogiston one was in a different book, but that one need not be trustworthy either 00:31:41 What I read in one book is they thought phlogiston has a negative mass, and that hydrogen is made of water and phlogiston. So, I thought, that mean that phlogiston is the negative oxygen. 00:32:11 negative mass? 00:32:28 Yes, that is what it said. 00:32:28 but isn't phlogiston supposed to be some magical fuel thingy that unburned materials have but burned materials no longer have? 00:32:37 that would have positive mass 00:32:45 unless they measured wrong of course 00:32:47 I don't know. I only know what I read 00:33:06 which is quite easy, given how oxygen is 1000 times less dense than wood, and they didn't have scales that precise back then 00:33:26 so all the measurements they get on the weight of phlogiston are probably errors in the experiment filtered through publication bias 00:36:06 ok that's totally false 00:36:19 the 1000 times lighter is for gaseous oxygen, that's irrelevant 00:36:37 the releavnt stuff is how much oxygen the burnt wax would consume, and that weight is much more significant 00:36:58 so you could actually measure it, but only if your supposedly airtight container actually lets more air in 00:37:06 you need to compare the mass by molarity, not by volume 00:37:42 ais523: by mass I think 00:37:50 it's the mass that's measured 00:38:05 b_jonas: you need to compare the mass of the reacted oxygen with the mass of the reacted fuel 00:38:31 ais523: yeah 00:38:34 and the molarity of each that reacts will be the same up to multiplication by a small integer on each side 00:38:49 so you need to compare the mass of a mole of oxygen to the mass of a mole of wax 00:39:24 (although with polymers, you need to count the monomers when measuring your mole, not the chains, as the monomers burn individually) 00:39:34 for perfectly burning petrol in modern cars, sure. but would it be so constant in realistic scenareos from two hundred years ago? 00:39:35 I can't remember whether wax is a polymer; wood is, though 00:40:00 the 200-year-ago state may be /more/ controlled 00:40:29 petrol is a very complex mixture (e.g. it's not entirely made of octane), whereas wood is almost entirely cellulose 00:40:29 I think wax is ideally pure unsaturated alkane compounds, and it ideally burns to only oxygen and water 00:40:46 OK, so wax is a short-chain polymer 00:40:46 at least if you have a chemistry lab where you can burn wax that well 00:41:03 so well that it doesn't even leave smoke 00:41:16 but all we hear is about how messy candles and oil lighting were back then 00:41:36 they got replaced by Edison's light bulbs really quickly 00:43:30 and that was before oil refineries 00:43:48 their gas factories were laughable 00:54:35 b_jonas> seriously, "Monday"? => yeah, to me it too seems quite unnatural. I get it in German all noun are capitalized, but English seems strange in this, as French punctuation spacing and a language I don’t remember which uses quotes »like this« :D (no offense, I respect the choices, in the end I don’t write in these languages at all—except English, which I should practise more frequently, really, but it’s irrelevant in this p 00:54:35 arenthetical) 00:56:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:57:41 arseniiv: yeah, French is space. French uses « outside facing » quotes like this, with thinner than normal non-breaking spaces inside them 00:58:28 I know that because I read David Madore's blog, and he writes about typography often 00:59:18 ais523: it seems your re:direction TC proof doesn't really need the left direction, except possibly to ensure interspersed 0s instead of junk output 00:59:52 oerjan: indeed, it doesn't need up either 01:00:27 otoh maybe if you have all 4 you could avoid wrapping - you're only using it at the bottom 01:00:32 the language is more elegant with all four directions, though (and likely has more ability to write code in interesting ways) 01:01:08 I considered "Re:direction without wrapping" as a challenge language for PPCG (i.e. the challenge is to prove it TC), but I have to prove it TC myself first before I can do that 01:01:51 heh 01:03:00 one huge benefit of the wrapping is that you can put a diamond on a row/column by itself and delete a certain type of element from the queue entirely that way; in the non-wrapping version, deletions are still possible but it's much more complex 01:05:06 Russian has capitalization issues, I should admit, too. One case I remember is possessive adjectives made from proper names, these capitalize when they have certain suffixes in them (!!) Maybe this rule has some semantic overtones (it shouldn’t have been appeared by chance probably, and writers of the past certainly thought something?) but I don’t see that 01:05:15 btw, on the subject of the two-variable Blindfolded Arithmetic construction: I've been interested in the potential for a language which can get it down to one for a while 01:05:48 (basically, as a thought experiment into "what sort of commands would Deadfish need to be Turing-complete, with no memory but the accumulator?") 01:06:04 arseniiv: yeah, the Hungarian rules are crazy too 01:06:07 but didn't come up with anything that worked, assuming we want the commands to be arithmetically simple and take no argument 01:06:59 no wonder 01:09:04 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58810&oldid=58783 * Ais523 * (+179) /* External links */ link the two-variable TCness proof 01:12:42 especially of fields. English maths terminology does borrow from german occasionally, so why didn't they just say "corpse" or "corps" or something? <-- i suspect that suggestion was dead on arrival hth 01:13:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:14:58 oerjan: it even has a freaky Hungarian equivalent. algebraic corpses are called "test" in Hungarian, 01:16:05 and there's a whimsical suggetion to call a subcorpse "altest", because the prefix "al-" would totally work for that on normal words, 01:16:22 i think the french "corps" means "body", not "corpse" hth 01:16:55 but "altest" happpens to mean "lower body", so mathematicians are ALL so chickems 01:17:01 the norwegian equivalent is "kropp", cognate to the german and used for the math too 01:17:22 that thwy call it "résztest" instead 01:17:44 oerjan: yeah, or "torso". 01:18:55 but "torso" sounds like it's about something non-commutative because of "torsion" and how algebraist's mind work, so that's excluded 01:20:47 hm "underkropp" means both lower body and subfield in norwegian 01:21:01 so it's a corps or a Körper 01:25:06 hm swedish seems to have chickened out with "del-" instead of "under-" :P 01:25:40 which seems like just what hungarian did too 01:25:45 (meaning "part") 01:26:03 yeah 01:27:49 mind you, "rész" is much more frequent in other maths words too, partly because "alhalmaz" sound stupid 01:27:56 oerjan: darn you made me look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpse 01:28:21 So I learned about plastination. Good night. 01:33:22 int-e: i take no blame for that hth 01:34:44 corpses everywhere! :o :o :o and ghosts and whatnot 01:35:15 ghosts? 01:35:18 oops Halloween has passed a while ago 01:35:50 hmm 01:38:34 b_jonas: interesting, norwegian uses "del-" in that case, "delmengde" = subset. although "undermengde" seems to have some usage. 01:38:36 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:38:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:39:27 everyone flees 01:40:55 I meant to say, in Russian math terminology, there is a body too, it denotes a skew field. And “subbody” doesn’t have any sufficiently strong connotations, it isn’t homonymous with any body part 01:41:57 I spent so much time looking what skew field is called in English :\ 01:49:53 I have thought that 'full and 'null rhyme, poor me <-- argh they don't? 01:52:59 oh, um, have someone added a language to Try it online? <-- i vaguely think the procedure is to go on the PPCG channel for it and ask dennis 01:53:21 (not that i have done so) 01:54:19 ais523 would know, if he hasn't already told you. 01:58:18 no notification at least 01:58:37 @tell b_jonas ais523: does ghc use it to parse the contradictory fixity statements that affect where the invisible braces are earlier in the code? or is that using a sat solver? <-- ghc never did that, and since 2010 official haskell doesn't do it either. 01:58:37 Consider it noted. 01:59:49 @tell b_jonas (they sanely made fixity resolution a separate post-parsing phase) 01:59:49 Consider it noted. 02:01:06 if I sometime write an implementation for Ⅎ it would be cool, but I haven’t yet and lazy to plan doing it even, so no importance 02:12:34 -!- imode has joined. 02:14:41 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Areallycoolusername * New user account 02:15:35 is there a middle ground between Haskell and Rust (or C++, but Rust is more disciplined with what way you can define an operator for your type)? 02:15:35 maybe something with less freedom to do unnecessary ASCII art than in Haskell (or this is not needed and I’m deluded), and with more restrictions, in case there is a small finite set of operators, on which constraints there are when defining/overloading several operations together 02:16:58 at the time I think Haskell (but with the right mathematically sound Prelude of course!) is a better alternative but 02:17:56 (and that Prelude should include actions, so I could add a point and a vector and get a point, or subtract two points and get a vector) 02:18:55 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58811&oldid=58804 * Areallycoolusername * (+177) Introduction 02:19:24 (I come to think people are overlooking actions, and it seems sad. Maybe they are not so practical, but still!) 02:21:23 . o O ( wonders what does “areally cool” mean ) 02:21:41 i vaguely recall mixing types like that leads to horrible type inference 02:23:19 although maybe that's only if you try to use the same + operator for all uses 02:23:50 I think there would be an issue if we want to define a default action (only one or maybe both) for a group and use the same operation + for action(s) and a group operation itself 02:23:57 yeah I have that feeling 02:24:36 also using + is somewhat bad for noncommutative cases 02:25:02 you might look at the replacement preludes on hackage 02:25:17 I want it because of strings in too many languages, but I understand why there’s <> for Semigroup/Monoid 02:25:57 in one or two of them, IIRC there were no actions, but it’s a good reminder, thanks 02:26:18 I still haven’t picked a mathy Prelude to use 02:28:36 my haskelling is all about PPCG these days, i don't even seem to have installed lens with my GHC version, which is still 8.0.1 02:29:15 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:29:50 oerjan: p. puzzles and code golf or polyhedral parallel code generation? 02:30:00 the former 02:30:34 I wish I could say this too but I’m almost only talking about Haskell even :D 02:30:49 (and I blame unmathy Prelude!) 02:33:18 btw haven’t someone heard isn’t there something new about comonadic do-notation? Is it possible to do right and do one needs it at all. It seems non-symmetric to have do, proc…do but no “codo”, whatever it may be 02:34:04 seems this topic ceased to interest people, I haven’t found any news when searched a while ago… 02:39:14 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58812 * Areallycoolusername * (+247) A new language page 02:42:22 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58813&oldid=58812 * Areallycoolusername * (+173) New edit 02:43:39 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58814&oldid=58813 * Areallycoolusername * (+20) New edit 02:46:02 but once there were two attempts, and flaws were deemed to be in at least one of them, with not many commenters 02:46:52 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58815&oldid=58761 * Areallycoolusername * (+84) Language link 02:49:22 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58816&oldid=58814 * Areallycoolusername * (+13) Coooool 02:49:57 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58817&oldid=58816 * Areallycoolusername * (+1) E 02:50:35 I thought it should be easy if one submits themselves and after some thought sees how to use duality to make it, but either there’s few folks interested or it’s non-trivial 02:51:09 interested *and* fluent in comonads, that is 03:02:49 i'm sure edward kmett must have spoken about the issue somewhere... 03:03:21 I think I read somewhere that the do-notation for comonads is called "method" 03:03:27 ah, seem to remember my idea what to do: we know functions a → m b where m is a monad are actually arrows (in Arrow sense), as are functions w a → b for w a comonad, so one could(?) see how do do-notation and proc…do which is doing the same, correspond; and then take proc…do which operates only on comonadic arrows and “uncorrespond” it into valid codo notation 03:03:56 zzo38: yeah, one of the two authors I read called his a method 03:05:39 uncorrespond => or should I say rrespond (ok I’ll show myself out) 03:10:24 do notation is really a quite thin sugar over >>= and lambdas, which only makes sense because it resembles intuitive imperative notation. perhaps the equivalent for comonads is simply not something already intuitive, and therefore no one sees a real point in not using the operators directly. at least that's my guess, i haven't really used them. 03:12:46 I thought that do-notation should be somehow definable as a macro rather than being built-in. 03:13:21 horay, I have googled an article by Dominic Orchard and Alan Mycroft, “A Notation for Comonads”. Diving in 03:15:24 zzo38: AFAIK it’s a sorta macro, GHC has a tiny core language which shouldn’t contain it and many other things, and it translates ordinary Haskell into it first 03:20:20 no one would like writing in this core language of course, and there are no means to restrict input to it if I got it right 03:20:29 so my answer is off 03:21:58 there's not even a parser for it, although i think you can use the GHC api to construct core in plugins 03:22:11 (unless someone made one since i heard) 03:34:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 03:36:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:36:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 04:35:39 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:56:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:13:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:30:03 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:37:03 -!- APic has joined. 06:14:27 -!- sprock1em has joined. 06:14:28 -!- sprock1em has quit (Client Quit). 06:20:10 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 06:20:31 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:39:48 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:41:51 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:50:01 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:51:15 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:28:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:35:33 -!- xkapastel has joined. 08:42:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:52:04 How to play a audio CD on Linux? I tried "play /dev/cdrom" but it says it can't determine the type of the file. 09:23:59 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:09:01 (Specifying the type of the file doesn't help either; in that case it is a different error.) 11:16:08 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:54:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:15:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:16:22 zzo38: VLC seems to have an option to play audio CDs (it's under "open disc" in the "media" menu) 12:16:59 I don't think playing a raw device works for the same reason that you can't open a file on /dev/hda, you need some layers in between to understand things like the partitioning and filesystems 12:17:15 (a CD can contain both audio tracks and data tracks at the same time, implying that there's some sort of partitioning going on) 12:20:08 @tell arseniiv for adding a language to TIO, you nee to contact Dennis (on StackExchange chat is easiest), and have a working interpreter or compiler that supports at least output, a hello world, a documentation link, and some idea about how UTF-8 source entered into TIO directly corresponds to bytes as seen by the program on disk 12:20:08 Consider it noted. 12:58:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 12:58:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:44:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 14:00:20 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:13:48 -!- nchambers has joined. 14:20:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:26:14 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:26:39 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:51:38 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 15:06:49 -!- MDude has joined. 15:08:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:16:14 -!- xkapastel has joined. 15:27:50 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58818 * Areallycoolusername * (+168) E 15:36:10 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:37:08 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:38:27 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:39:20 -!- tromp has joined. 15:40:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:40:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:42:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:42:38 -!- nchambers has joined. 15:42:51 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:43:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:11:38 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:14:30 -!- tromp has joined. 16:32:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:40:22 -!- nchambers has joined. 16:57:28 -!- moony has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))). 16:57:43 -!- moony has joined. 17:09:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:15:16 and the foreshadowing in girl genius comes together... 17:24:54 also, merry christmas! (norwegian style timing) 17:38:15 oerjan: it's christmas in east asia already 17:39:15 well in norway's case it's mostly that it starts at 5pm on the 24th 17:40:06 * oerjan prepares to open his traditional first nutella ball 17:42:07 -!- BBH has joined. 17:42:19 Hi everybody 17:42:25 hi 17:42:28 * BBH says hi 17:43:06 * oerjan gets sudden urge to apply turing test to BBH 17:43:12 b:Hi!\n;p:b;k; 17:43:19 A:; program 17:44:10 What's the difference between this and IRC 17:44:46 this is irc 17:45:00 so, none i guess? 17:46:22 ... 17:46:56 programming anyone 17:47:49 Wait 17:48:05 On my screen this website says "Not Secure" 17:49:53 but for me it isn't such a big problem 17:50:45 j:He;l:llo?;p:j;p:l;k; 17:51:00 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58819&oldid=58545 * Oerjan * (-15) /* Interpreter in Ruby */ fix(?) fmt 17:51:04 oerjan: good yule! 17:51:08 ? 17:51:26 "Difference between revisions of A:;" 17:51:42 BBH: i just removed the redundant tags 17:52:01 they were causing stray little grey blobs in the page 17:52:33 oh yeah 17:53:19 in the esolang article https://esolangs.org/wiki/A:; there are 3 or 4 empty boxes around the Ruby interpreter 17:53:43 .... go to the web address bar and add another ";" 17:54:18 not any more. 17:54:46 * BBH stares wide-eyed at screen * 17:56:23 -!- BBH_ has joined. 17:56:35 wait 17:56:44 why is there BBH and BBH_ 17:56:48 * BBH_ 17:57:00 BBH_: you can use https to get rid of the insecure warning, i suspect 17:57:29 -!- BBH_ has quit (Client Quit). 17:57:59 Luciole: feliz navidad 17:58:41 oerjan: Frohe Weihnachten 17:58:44 -!- BBH_ has joined. 17:59:01 ok now i think this is broken' 17:59:25 What bit? 17:59:31 -!- BBH has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:59:43 the first time i got here i was BBH 18:00:00 then i refreshed, logged in as BBH, and now I'm BBH_ 18:00:18 sure, because BBH is still online, since you refreshed 18:00:27 ping timeout and all that 18:00:38 it quit up there, so you can /nick to BBH now 18:00:49 -!- BBH_ has changed nick to BBH. 18:01:23 * BBH Runs away to get brunch but realizes he forgot to say thanks * 18:01:30 thx 18:01:51 mmm brunch 18:01:52 good idea 18:03:04 i think it may be impossible for an A:; program to print a ; character, not good for quines 18:03:14 b:BBH gets;c: leftover bread from yes;j:terday;p:b;p:c;p:j;k; 18:03:16 yeah 18:03:46 or wait 18:03:48 there 18:04:01 was a \n somewhere, so maybe it can be escaped 18:04:52 A quine would be somthing like "b:b:b:b:b:b:b:... p:b ...p:b" 18:05:23 oh no, the ruby interpreter explicitly substitutes \n, and only that 18:05:26 But I can't work the Ruby interpreter 🤣 18:05:59 so there is probably no way to get ; into a variable 18:07:03 and you need at least one in any program to print 18:09:50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII#Control_Characters is not what you think. 18:10:10 the first part is boring, but the table is important for many esolangs 18:10:33 like Omgrofl 18:11:57 * BBH takes a break to eat brunch * 18:13:56 the C interpreter behaves quite differently than the ruby one 18:14:40 idk c 18:15:33 and nothing keeps me more interested than A:; 🙂 18:24:36 b: bottles of beer on the wall,\n;c: bottles of beer,\nTake one down,pass it around,\n;j: bottles of beer on the wall.\n\n;l: bottle of beer on the wall.\n;o:bottle of beer,\ntake one down, pass it around,\n0 bottles of beer on the wall.;q:99.0;r:1.0;t:99.0;?:q:=:t:7;p:q;p:b;p:q;p:c;s:q:r;p:q;p:j;g:6;... 18:24:58 That's supposed to be a 99 bottles of beer program but I'm too lazy to write it all 18:26:04 How to make the data of a audio CD on stdout (so that it can be written to a file or piped to another program) or to mount as a file system with one file per track (which can then be played or converted by SoX)? 18:28:02 Audio IS represented by ones and zeros. So is text... but I don't think you could convert audio to text because there's a huge amount of information in the audio file(like a CD)especially if it's >45 minutes. 18:28:16 I am not trying to convert audio to text 18:28:59 but stdout can only output text right? 18:29:07 No, it can output any data 18:29:26 i was thinking of the stdout in python 18:29:48 but in any other languages idk 18:30:48 b:I am;c: st;j:up;l:id!\n;p:b;p:c;p:j;p:l;k; 18:31:09 * BBH That is true * 18:32:07 -!- BBH_ has joined. 18:32:29 -!- BBH_ has changed nick to BrightBlackhole. 18:32:35 -!- BrightBlackhole has changed nick to BrightBlackHole. 18:32:42 ok got it 18:35:01 i looked at the esolang A:; article and i found out that the page was "last edited on 20:18, December 2, 2018". 18:35:19 so 8:18 PM 18:35:47 -!- BBH has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:35:56 ? 18:36:08 -!- Essadon has joined. 18:36:09 BrightBlackHole: depends on the server timezone 18:36:27 BrightBlackHole: and the native timezone of the user who edited it 18:36:49 I hate time zones 18:37:02 me too 18:37:20 but remember that this is #esoteric, not #randomchat 18:37:53 ^[ 18:37:57 I don't hate timezones. However, the timezone could be specified in the timestamp to avoid, such as adding "Z" at the end if it is UTC 18:38:25 That would have to be fixed in MediaWiki software if you wanted to do that though. 18:38:25 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 18:38:27 I don't know if the wiki uses its own time zone or converts time ro the zone of the user 18:39:46 oh wait now it sayd december 24 18:39:48 thats today 18:39:56 christmas eve 18:40:52 about:blank 18:41:04 chrome://blank 18:45:27 timezones are a relic of times when there was hardly an easy way to lookup local astronomical times of different places, now in principle we can with the internet and all that, but the zones don’t want to go :( 18:45:55 I don't hate timezones but I do hate daylight saving time 18:46:17 and so I must live more than a hour away of my local time (IIRC, as there was flux several years ago, still) 18:48:40 and the noon is 13:something, bwah, and with DST it was for several years even 14:something (as the people somewhere there ceased to understand what DST means, for some obscure reason; then a while ago DST was canceled, finally) 18:49:10 weird, I say 18:51:01 oren: the timezone is a user preference, defaulting to UTC 18:51:08 (of the reader) 18:52:30 although in talk page signatures, UTC is used. 18:56:45 whoops i didn't realize i was still on 19:01:51 -!- BrightBlackHole has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:19:48 -!- BrightBlackHole has joined. 19:19:54 hi again 19:20:07 blankslate.com 19:20:20 blankslate.io 19:20:35 is a place to program in 19:21:05 https://blankslate.io 19:32:34 -!- BrightBlackHole has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:53:31 I discussed yesterday with the GM of the game if we can use bite and breath attack together, and he said it can be done, and also that my character (and others of the same species, too) are immune to his own breath attack. (So, if we need to fight someone else of same species, should then use other weapons such as arrows, or even melee attacks, which even in case of natural melee attacks should still work.) 19:56:16 What would you think? 20:12:03 if the breath comes out of the same body opening as where the teeth are, then it would seem hard to do both efficiently simultaneously... 20:12:48 Yes, but I meant on the next turn, if opponent has not yet escaped. If on the same turn, maybe you have to make a rapid strike for a -6 penalty to hit. 20:13:17 If you still think there something wrong with that you can complain about that too 20:17:41 Also in this case is sharp beak rather than teeth 20:22:36 might depend on the beak shape how well it works 20:23:10 Ah, yes, I suppose so. 20:26:24 also on how the breath attack works, if it just needs to touch the opponent's body or e needs to breath it in... 20:26:36 It is a contact agent 20:26:46 (I did already consider that) 20:29:16 the species might very well have evolved holes or gaps in the beak precisely to be able to do this 20:29:44 if it's evolved rather than magically designed, i guess 20:29:56 O, OK, I suppose that can make sense. 20:48:41 Thank you for your suggestions 20:50:43 you're welcome 21:03:47 -!- imode has joined. 21:57:21 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:57:52 Do you like to play Scrabble with memoryless blank tiles? 22:26:39 hi 22:26:52 is there a context to this question? I just arrived 22:30:20 There is no other context, I think 22:37:59 then I'm confused 22:38:29 must I understand that the tiles forget which letter they represent, as soon as they're played? 22:44:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:45:40 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:47:45 Yes, rather than the normal rule which is to have to remember which one it is. 22:48:32 aha 22:51:40 [[Brain:D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58820 * Areallycoolusername * (+643) :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 23:04:37 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:43 [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58821&oldid=58820 * Areallycoolusername * (+99) : + infinite Ds 23:08:20 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58822&oldid=58815 * Areallycoolusername * (+58) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ 23:12:19 [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58823&oldid=58821 * Areallycoolusername * (+104) : 23:13:40 [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58824&oldid=58823 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) Hol' up I did an oof. 23:29:12 -!- imode has joined. 23:33:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:38:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:55:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:59:58 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 2018-12-25: 00:01:24 -!- hexfive has joined. 00:02:45 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 00:02:45 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:58 -!- tromp has joined. 00:15:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:24:00 -!- nchambers has joined. 00:27:16 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph. 00:39:01 -!- xkapastel has joined. 00:41:40 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:51:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:01:28 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:35:45 -!- tromp has joined. 01:40:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:47:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 02:26:01 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:41:40 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:42:33 -!- imode has joined. 03:07:40 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:07:40 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:23:08 -!- tromp has joined. 03:23:24 -!- sprocklem has joined. 03:27:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:36:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:40:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:03:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:14:21 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:15:23 -!- MDude has joined. 04:17:38 -!- tromp has joined. 04:21:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:38:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:38:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:11:15 -!- tromp has joined. 05:15:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:34:27 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:50:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:52:37 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 05:53:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:55:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:16:43 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 06:16:43 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:44:53 -!- tromp has joined. 06:48:54 Maybe in that game if you use a breath attack and bite together, since your mouth is not open enough so it will cause less damage than it should normally do. I don't know, but that is one idea I have 06:49:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:12:20 [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58825&oldid=58809 * Ais523 * (+26) /* Hello world program */ grammar, clarify 07:39:00 -!- tromp has joined. 07:43:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:49:33 -!- tromp has joined. 07:51:13 -!- chal_ has joined. 07:51:24 Is /// input-universal? 07:51:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:51:51 -!- tromp has joined. 08:02:24 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:28:02 -!- chal_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:50:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:10:50 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:19:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:21:30 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:23:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:23:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:17:11 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58826&oldid=58798 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+37) 12:23:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:28:38 -!- SeasonsGreetings has quit (Quit: How much does Santa pay for parking? Nothing. It's on the house.). 12:29:12 -!- grumble has joined. 12:37:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:41:09 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:43:29 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58827&oldid=58826 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+0) 12:43:55 zzo38: re reading audio from CD, if you have a linux machine and a CD drive connected to the same machine and the drive isn't too ancient, then install libburnia from distro or ... source would be at http://www.libburnia-project.org/ but that website is down, 12:44:25 then use the cdrskin program in libburnia with the right switches to read the table of contents and audio cd tracks to files, read the manpage of cdrskin for that, then cat some of those files to stdout. 12:45:12 there are also programs older than libburnia that can do this, but I think libburnia supercedes them if you have a working linux 13:05:57 libburnia handles CD and DVD disks of all kinds, it is partitioned to three source packages: libburnia has the higher-level C api and a few command-line executables including cdrskin and isorrix, and two dependency libraries, one each for the file system details and the disk drive hardware details, at least the parts that aren't always done by the 13:05:57 kernel. 13:06:30 even if the website is down, you should be able to find the source packages at debian 13:07:36 I then use ffmpeg to process the raw music files I read 13:07:51 (and some wrappers in shell script or perl specific for my applications) 13:13:56 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:14:04 arseniiv => hmm, I guess you're in Russia or Belarus then. though I don't know when DST was abolished. 13:14:14 let me look that up 13:15:35 zzo38: that seems normal. most adult dragons are immune to their breath attacks, and I think most other creatures that have a breath attack have at least some resistance to it, except perhaps with some really exotic breath attacks 13:15:53 it's hard to imagine someone breathing fire or ice or poison but not being very resistant to it 13:18:35 oerjan: ore more dangerously, the creature might breath flammable gas and withstand enough heat that comes into contact with the exhaust hole, but not be able to withstand the fire at its hottest point with its skin completely. but dragons don't work this way, because they have scales in most parts of their body, and the fire dragons' scales protec 13:18:35 t against the fire by the time they can use their breath attack 13:20:49 hmm, apparently Russia removed most parts from DST changes only quite recently. I know that most parts were ahead of mean solar time even in winter when I was young. 13:22:28 zzo38: you've probably read http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3018.html about dragons and their resistance to fire 13:24:10 as for breath attack and bite attack together, I have no problem with a creature having both, and in particular a dragon would have both. I always imagined that they didn't use the two simultaneously, but with a small delay, but that doesn't make too much difference, it might still happen fast enough that both are effectively on the same turn. 13:24:53 ais523: ^ chal_'s question 13:30:40 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58828&oldid=58827 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+108) 13:35:28 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58829&oldid=58828 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+88) 13:35:50 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58830&oldid=58829 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+2) 13:56:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:07:43 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58831&oldid=58830 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+224) 14:09:47 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58832&oldid=58831 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+149) 14:20:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:20:46 b_jonas: chal_ quit before I could get online, but I don't know the answer for sure 14:20:48 I'm guessing no though 14:21:20 ok 14:21:25 although thinking about it, I've seen ///-alikes that are 14:21:27 so maybe it is? 14:22:54 re: poison, its' weird that "poison immunity" / "poison resistance" is treated as a universal, general-purpose thing 14:23:04 when in practice there are a large number of different poisons with different mechanisms 14:23:07 sure, gnu sed is universal for non-interactive IO for example. it can concatenate all the input, then do all the work after it's all read. I think sed is even universal for interactive linewise IO. 14:23:16 so a poison-breathing dragon, I'd expect it to be immune to its own poison, but maybe not to those of other species? 14:24:10 it actually misses out on universality in a fairly stupid way (if input is completely empty, output must be too) 14:24:24 if you append/prepend a newline to the input then you have universality 14:25:03 ais523: well, a few things that you might sometimes call "poison" don't count into it, and exist separately, such as acid (though I think in some D&D versions, acid is poison), sleep, nethack hallucination. in a modern tech setting, there might be more of these, such as toxical heavy metals and radioactivity. 14:25:35 ais523: hmm... ok 14:26:10 ais523: we have examples for fire and cold dragons that are immune too 14:26:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:27:02 I think a dragon with teleport breath or force bolt breath would perhaps not be immune to its own breath, but those things are rare 14:27:21 anyway, time to go off and do Christmas things with family 14:27:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 14:27:39 mind you, a force bolt dragon would still be somewhat tough because of its scales, so it would be able to withstand several turns of force breath by a kin 14:30:44 -!- MDude has joined. 14:33:50 b_jonas: as far as I know, real world doctors make a distinction between three types of poisoning: chemical, biological, or radioactive 14:35:33 I must say I had never heard of or though of "teleport breath" before 14:35:54 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 14:36:25 although "I breath some fumes on you, you pass out, and when you'll wake up you'll be in another place" is somewhat of an overused hollywood plot device 15:11:02 -!- nchambers has joined. 15:16:28 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 15:30:11 -!- Essadon has joined. 15:37:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:38:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:39:44 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:55:32 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58833&oldid=58832 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+0) 15:58:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:01:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:28:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:40:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:43:28 Is /// input-universal? <-- hm if that means what i think it means, then i've looked at it, and the answer is no, but only barely. 16:45:52 you need to be able to exclude _some_ string from the input in order to be sure not to lose information while substituting. but it may be possible to choose any single excluded string you want. 16:46:01 (too bad e left) 16:47:01 meh, this is a channel with public logs, so I don't much care about who parts 16:47:49 (incidentally i thought of this while making this PPCG answer: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/142655/draw-my-downslashes/156081#156081 ) 16:48:03 b_jonas: it wasn't a regular so my worry is more that e won't come back 16:48:48 in that answer i managed to just append a raw string input, despite the input format consisting entirely of / and \ 16:49:24 > exp 1 16:49:26 2.718281828459045 16:49:55 dofuck fails output universality in a stupid way 16:50:23 but then, it's a stupid language, so that's ok 16:50:48 [ ^1 16:50:49 b_jonas: 2.71828 16:53:30 `` bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)' 16:53:31 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: bc: command not found 16:53:44 aww 16:53:44 > exp 1 :: CReal 16:53:46 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572 16:54:58 `[ 0j15":^1 NB. still just 64-bit floating point 16:54:59 ​[: missing ‘]’ 16:55:03 [ 0j15":^1 NB. still just 64-bit floating point 16:55:04 b_jonas: 2.718281828459045 16:57:52 `` bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)' 16:57:52 2.718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699959574966967627724\ \ 0766303535475945713821785251664274 16:57:54 int-e: ^ 16:58:15 yay 16:58:52 `` BC_LINE_LENGTH=0 bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)' 16:58:53 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303535475945713821785251664274 17:00:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:01:42 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:16:50 To use two attacks on the same turn in GURPS requires a rapid strike, with a -6 penalty to hit (-3 for kung fu masters), so that is what I suggested if you can use both on same turn. 17:21:37 I would think especially contact agent poison (rather than fire) breath attack, you would likely be immune to your own; with fire you could still get burned I would think (although you may be resistant to the heat, though). In this case the poison is one that makes the target sleeping 17:24:03 Like b_jonas I also did not intend anyone would actually use a bite and breath attack truly simultaneously. Rather, my question was about using a breath attack if your mouth is still touching the target (they didn't escape) after biting. So, I thought, in such a case the breath attack can't miss, but your mouth isn't open very wide so it the damage of the breath attack should be reduced (but by how much?) 17:25:04 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:53:07 -!- imode has joined. 18:57:35 (Presumably it will be reduced to minimum damage, I suppose. That is still not so bad, though, since any armour is already bypassed, probably) 19:04:23 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 19:04:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:53 -!- nchambers has joined. 19:49:12 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:06:32 -!- imode has joined. 20:20:04 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58834&oldid=58824 * Areallycoolusername * (+421) Code added 20:22:04 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58835&oldid=58834 * Areallycoolusername * (+6) 20:30:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:30:36 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58836&oldid=58835 * Areallycoolusername * (+362) 20:51:03 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58837&oldid=58836 * Areallycoolusername * (+120) 20:52:35 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58838&oldid=58837 * Areallycoolusername * (-2) 21:01:25 -!- nchambers has joined. 21:06:18 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:36:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:47:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 2018-12-26: 00:37:03 [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58839&oldid=58817 * Areallycoolusername * (-110) 01:05:08 [[Ummm...]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58840 * Areallycoolusername * (+1040) Created page with "Ummm... is a programming language made by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It's a language that starts to execute your code fine, but then forgets what it's doing. In the case t..." 01:05:53 [[Ummm...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58841&oldid=58840 * Areallycoolusername * (-2) 01:07:55 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58842&oldid=58818 * Areallycoolusername * (+73) 01:08:09 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58843&oldid=58842 * Areallycoolusername * (+1) 01:10:20 [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58844&oldid=58822 * Areallycoolusername * (+60) /* General languages */ 01:21:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:46:43 [[Talk:ScrubCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58845 * Cortex * (+119) Created page with "=== A === Well this sure aged terribly ~~~~" 02:11:21 -!- user24 has joined. 02:12:21 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:04 sam starfall wants humans not to fowl it up. 02:45:54 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:48:46 -!- nchambers has joined. 03:07:42 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:10:06 -!- user24 has joined. 03:35:59 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:37:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:38:54 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:41:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:44:00 -!- moei has joined. 03:47:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 03:54:36 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:27:22 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:51:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:54:38 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:14:51 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:39:05 -!- whitequill has joined. 05:41:38 I wanted to offer a correctoin to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blacktime. I have found a copy of it on github. https://github.com/threeifbywhiskey/blacktime. 05:42:33 it doesn't have the beautiful digital syntax and it is strictly Whitespace. the version on the site must be a derivative. 05:43:23 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:44:57 *correction 05:46:00 Happy Boxing Day Everyone! 06:00:21 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bubbler * New user account 06:16:21 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:37:14 [[But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58846&oldid=51710 * Ais523 * (+20) /* Semantics */ fix an ambiguity in the specification in the direction that avoids DoFuck-like I/O problems 06:48:23 -!- whitequill has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:05:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:49:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58847&oldid=58811 * Bubbler * (+223) 08:33:16 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Alas.). 08:34:31 -!- shikhin has joined. 09:16:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:22:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:10:43 I did t bois. The Free City of Hamburg is a great power, with a larger colonial empire than Britain lol 10:11:01 https://imgur.com/6eVMUDa 11:03:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:48:26 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:10:52 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:26:59 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:30:36 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:00:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:12:07 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:19:35 -!- nchambers has joined. 14:25:47 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 14:30:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:39:15 [[RunR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58848&oldid=36199 * Salpynx * (+171) Hello World example 14:42:12 [[Talk:RunR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58849 * Salpynx * (+280) VB interpreter bug 14:47:35 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 14:47:35 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:56:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:59:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 14:59:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:13:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:14:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:36:15 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:37:08 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:39:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:39:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 16:01:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 16:01:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:05:06 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:39:04 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:30:20 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:08:07 [[Ummm...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58850&oldid=58841 * Areallycoolusername * (+130) 18:43:49 `pbflsit http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/ 18:43:50 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pbflsit: not found 18:43:53 `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/ 18:43:53 pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale 18:43:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:03:13 Can any version of Linux using SysRq+F1, SysRq+F2, etc to send signals to init if signal handlers are set for them? (init might use this to execute external programs according to some configuration file set up by the system administrator, maybe.) 20:06:16 zzo38: I don't think sysRq can do that, but I think there are two keystrokes in ordinary non-raw console keyboard mode that you can assign to something like that, plus you can assign global shortcuts in X too 20:06:48 neither is as reliable as sysrq, because there are ways to freeze or crash X11, or to just get your console to raw keyboard mode without X 20:07:57 for messing with X keyboard layouts, I recommend setting up commands that you can trigger purely with the mouse, so you can use them no matter how much you mess up the keyboard layout 20:08:20 you can also use timers or network triggers 20:48:18 -!- imode has joined. 21:04:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:13:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:45:57 -!- iconmaster has joined. 23:04:14 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58851&oldid=58795 * Bubbler * (+13) 23:05:38 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:06:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:55 -!- tromp has joined. 23:19:48 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:28:37 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58852&oldid=58851 * Bubbler * (+2) 2018-12-27: 00:10:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:15:42 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 00:19:32 Do you like ZDDs? 00:23:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:29:14 What is ZDDs? 00:29:32 Zero-suppressed binary Decision Diagrams. 00:29:37 They're too good. 00:34:13 -!- tromp has joined. 00:38:36 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:38:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:38:45 -!- Melvar has joined. 00:39:54 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:44:07 . o O ( oren ist ein Hamburger ) 00:48:29 after last girl genius update i was sort of wonder if that was the end of a book, but it seems not... 00:48:34 *wondering 00:48:59 hierjan 00:49:33 I was in your time zone but now I'm back home. 00:49:45 But my sleep is still in your time zone. But maybe your sleep is in my time zone? 00:52:29 also, they actually gave an approximate time period for Albia's memory, the way they kept saying "long ago" until now i thought they were going to avoid it... 00:52:50 shachaf: sounds about right. 00:52:59 anyway do you like zdds 00:53:31 no i hate them despite never having heard of them before, they're just that bad hth 00:54:26 `owrjan 00:54:27 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 00:55:24 swrjan s/His ark-nemesis is Noah/His arch-nemesis is Shin-ichi MINATO/ 00:55:32 oops, meant to ` that 00:55:37 who is that 00:55:39 But it's probably just as well I didn't. 00:55:45 i'd say 00:55:58 inventor of ZDDs, i think hth 00:56:02 OKAY 00:56:02 `? zdd 00:56:06 zdd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:56:09 Or is that Taneb? 01:14:23 -!- tromp has joined. 01:18:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:36:06 shachaf, give me a eli5 of zdds 01:38:58 -!- BrightBlackHole has joined. 01:39:38 Everybody from last time I joined is still here 01:39:40 On the same channel 01:39:43 not chatting 01:39:47 -!- BrightBlackHole has quit (Client Quit). 01:41:06 ok 01:42:49 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:33:36 [[Flatland]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58853 * Bubbler * (+2545) Created page with "The '''Flatland''' language operates on a 2D plane of instructions, but it is ''not'' grid-based (as opposed to [[Befunge]] and [[Fish|><>]]). Rather, the execution paths are..." 02:46:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:53:42 -!- arseniiv has joined. 02:55:21 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:01:35 -!- tromp has joined. 03:05:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:38:43 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:40:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:55:43 -!- tromp has joined. 04:00:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:00:53 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 04:11:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:25:07 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:36:50 -!- uplime has joined. 05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:42:56 -!- tromp has joined. 05:48:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:05:58 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:35:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:25:38 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:30:39 -!- tromp has joined. 07:35:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:43:33 nice idea 08:47:10 Is there the way in Linux to clone a process so that the clone is suspending the parent like CLONE_VFORK and sharing the same memory like CLONE_VM but also shares all registers (including the program counter)? In this case it will not be useful with clone() but can be used with sys_clone, and the assumption that _exit() never returns is invalid. Also, execve() might return even if successful, which it normally can't. 09:46:40 -!- tromp has joined. 10:17:27 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:36:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:53:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:53:40 -!- uplime has joined. 10:59:37 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:26:02 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:35:34 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:36:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:44:33 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:46:50 -!- shikhin has joined. 11:51:42 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:53:00 -!- shikhin has joined. 11:58:00 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:58:58 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:03:45 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:04:43 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:09:49 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:14:57 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:20:11 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:21:02 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:21:03 -!- Cale has joined. 12:40:13 -!- b_jonas has joined. 13:04:41 -!- uplime has joined. 13:10:32 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:21:37 [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58854&oldid=58838 * Areallycoolusername * (+26) 13:22:36 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58855&oldid=58833 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-4) 13:39:40 -!- uplime has joined. 13:48:25 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:16:58 -!- uplime has joined. 14:21:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:05:53 -!- rain1 has joined. 15:07:47 -!- rain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:35:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:37:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:40:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:40:22 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:40:42 i see Brain:D is even more braindead than i first surmised. 15:42:19 at first i thought the lack of mention of spaces was just a small mistake. 15:47:58 oh it's one of these write-only languages 15:52:40 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:53:59 how do you even interpret that? 15:59:32 you make a lucky guess, and then you start running 16:00:39 that, or you make a global registry mapping program lengths to their intended parse 16:00:53 ... this will seriously mess up golfing competitions. 16:14:48 i've seen people golf in unary 16:15:19 aka lenguage and a heap of other names 16:18:43 that's different? 16:20:12 *looks* Yeah that's different. Lenguage is Brainfuck golfing with a lexicographic comparison of programs on top, so [+] is better than [-]. 16:35:33 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:41:02 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:43:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:17:22 [[Dunke!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+1308) Language 17:19:54 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58857&oldid=58852 * Areallycoolusername * (+13) /* D */ 17:21:31 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58858&oldid=58857 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* D */ 17:24:22 [[Dunke!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58859&oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) 17:27:10 -!- Areallycoolusern has joined. 17:27:46 Oof? 17:32:08 Anybody home? 17:34:47 imode: about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture" 17:54:07 -!- Areallycoolusern has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:06:46 @tell imode about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture" 18:06:46 Consider it noted. 18:09:53 [[DukkTap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (+1273) Created page with "DukkTap is an esoteric programming language that acts like a piece of duck tape. it's inspired by a idea in the idea list sectrion of esolang. DukkTap has 6 commands {| class..." 18:10:26 [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58861&oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (-1) 18:11:23 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58862&oldid=58379 * Areallycoolusername * (+26) /* Partially Silly Ideas */ 18:12:59 -!- imode has joined. 18:16:35 imode! hi 18:16:48 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58863&oldid=58858 * Areallycoolusername * (+14) /* D */ 18:18:41 [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58864&oldid=58861 * Areallycoolusername * (-1) 18:19:11 [ 0.3*26 18:19:11 b_jonas: 7.8 18:19:13 [ 0.3*26 18 18:19:14 b_jonas: 7.8 5.4 18:29:07 b_jonas: hi. 18:29:27 yooo, thanks for the article. :) 18:37:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:39:14 -!- clog has joined. 18:50:54 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:33:41 what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions? lambda calculus assumes an implicit local set of variable bindings, combinatory logic assumes an implicit conversion of trinary/binary functions to unary ones during evaluation, turing machines assume a state table, tape, read/write head, and a set of symbols... 19:34:26 imode: what do Markov algorithms assume? 19:34:29 (IDK) 19:35:04 markov algorithms and thue systems assume an ever-expanding string, a set of symbols, and either an unordered or an ordered set of ordered pairs of rules. 19:35:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:35:48 ah, I seem to start understanding the topic 19:36:12 though I’m still unable to say something useful on it 19:37:32 something that bothers me is that LC/CL is phrased as "the smallest model of computation", when they aren't: they make implicit assumptions that need to be made explicit when they're actually evaluated. 19:37:58 combinatory logic at least is smaller than the lambda calculus, as it doesn't suffer from the weight of implicit variable bindings. 19:38:23 but I really wonder what's the "smallest" when everything's made explicit. 19:39:56 imode: look at some of the crazy ones that ais523 cares about, especially the ones related to counter machines 19:40:30 something that bothers me about those is the idea that they presuppose the natural numbers. 19:41:02 shouldn’t we presuppose something unbounded in all cases? 19:41:04 you start with something powerful then you artificially limit yourself. you have to then sidestep everything by an encoding. 19:41:23 correct.. 19:41:44 imode: not at full power. ultrafinitism isn't enough, but you only need to go a few exponentials to see that they work 19:41:49 to me natural numbers seem very bland of all unbounded things used for computation :) 19:42:11 or not very, but at least sufficiently 19:42:14 there's all sorts of properties about them that you get for free, though. primes spring to mind, which is how godel numbering came about. 19:42:20 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58865&oldid=58651 * Ais523 * (+1392) /* The Amnesiac from Minsk */ add 19:43:11 overall it just seems inelegant. presupposing the naturals kind of brings in a package of assumptions as well. 19:45:18 but we can encode them anyway and encode all the things needed for Gödel encoding, so is their complexity not imaginary? 19:46:09 you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. 19:48:54 …in comparison to other things used for computations 19:48:55 you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. => ah hm. But in what cases we have to resort to it? For counter machines, one could use Cantor encoding of pairs and other tuples which doesn’t use primes in its construction 19:49:18 I am now interested. tell me more. 19:49:58 never heard of cantor encoding of pairs. 19:50:57 you mean like (x,y) => choose(x+y,2)+y ? 19:51:03 I’ll look for a link 19:51:14 b_jonas: what does choose do? 19:51:22 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58866&oldid=58843 * Areallycoolusername * (+25) 19:51:42 I remember there were squares in there and the projection functions were not so complicated 19:51:48 arseniiv: binomial coefficient 19:51:57 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function#Cantor_pairing_function 19:52:25 I never knew about this. 19:53:14 that seems pretty... out there. in order to work with it, you need to have a firm grasp of the properties of natural numbers, which draws in multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, square roots.. 19:54:04 floor, exponentials.. 19:54:19 then there's the (x,y) -> (2**x + (2*y+1)) encoding, and the other Cantor encoding (square-shaped, not triangle-shaped) that (0) uses 19:55:18 that is pretty ballin', though. 19:55:57 I dunno. I don't see the case for machines that presuppose the natural numbers, but I could use some more convincing. it's definitely not an area that I've explored to a great degree. 19:56:33 imode: I think the way using all those is just a simpler one to compactly derive, write and calculate and all that but isn’t necessary. We could establish that the pairing is a bijection and that the projections are increasing, so there’s a simple boring algorithm to calculate them 19:56:56 it would be all long and no fun 19:57:02 that sounds like fun to me. 19:57:05 teach me senpai. 19:57:23 :D I haven’t done that by myself though 19:57:29 maybe b_jonas had? 19:58:04 arseniiv: look at David Madore's comment on the specific pairing relation he chose for (0) 19:58:10 there's a particular reason for that 19:58:12 also I think it’s almost alike Kuratowski and others pair constructions in set theory 19:58:42 ah, (0) is an esolang? Will look at 19:59:01 my issue as well is that the operations you'd consider useful to do _actual_ work, in some sense, are very far removed from the operations you actually get with a counter machine. 19:59:10 you have to mangle increment and decrement in some sense. 19:59:47 > (0) has only one basic data type, ordinal numbers => you gotta be kidding 19:59:48 arseniiv: yes, (0) is an esolang 19:59:49 :1:24: error: parse error on input ‘data’ 20:00:38 (btw how do I quote here without disturbing lambdabot’s sleep?) 20:00:45 ❝ maybe 20:00:56 Blame David for the lack of good names for all but one of his esolangs 20:01:17 which of there is good-named? 20:01:22 those* 20:01:47 ► try triangle for quoting 20:01:59 imode: I agree 20:02:32 arseniiv: read the wiki 20:02:50 already started 20:02:59 so you have a model that presupposes you understand enough about the natural numbers to encode useful ideas. the weight of those assumptions outweighs turing machines already. 20:07:58 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58867&oldid=58865 * Ais523 * (-1) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk */ caps 20:07:59 imode: maybe if you could tell what is it that you do want to presuppose, it would be easier to tell what computation model suits them the best. Descartes's silly little thing? Euclides's straightline and compass? The ZFC axioms? 20:08:27 `quote 20:08:27 374) it was a wonderful dream i died in it that's how it started 20:08:33 `quote 20:08:33 1135) i'm from space.........chu space 20:08:34 I'm not sure! hence I'm just wondering. 20:08:47 Hi HackEso 20:08:49 HackEso 20:08:51 [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58868&oldid=54286 * Ais523 * (+140) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk, level 1 */ hello world 20:09:30 hence why I asked "what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions?" 20:10:05 what was that about descartes? 20:10:11 [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58869&oldid=58868 * Ais523 * (+136) implemented 20:11:04 `? descartes 20:11:05 descartes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:11:19 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:11:35 dunno, maybe something about someone offering him a drink on an airplane, or stupidity and the size of the universe 20:12:18 sorry, bad attempts of pop culture injokes 20:12:33 lol. 20:14:15 b_jonas: if I understand David Madore’s post right, he defined pair(x, y) = if x < y then y^2 + x else x^2 + x + y? 20:15:07 I have no hope to understand the motives, though 20:16:43 b_jonas: rofl 20:17:35 (though I didn’t get one about a drink) 20:23:33 we need the computational equivalent of a compass and a straightedge. 20:31:09 I’m afraid as the elementary geometry is proven a complete and sound theory it shouldn’t allow one to base Turing-complete computation models on itself IMO 20:31:45 and compass and straightedge don’t exceed its bounds 20:31:59 so they should be pretty weak 20:33:35 heh, I didn't mean literally... but that brings to mind: what would a turing complete geometry look like? 20:39:32 maybe something akin to tiling? 20:48:50 arseniiv: only when x and y are natural numbers 20:49:07 arseniiv: the definition is more complicated in the extended case when the pairing function and (0) works over all ordinals 20:49:25 arseniiv: David's comment on the same post explains the motives for the pairing function 20:49:50 that doesn't mean that it's the one true pairing function for everything, there are different goals you may want for a pairing function, that's why there are so many good ones 20:50:37 I am now curious as to the application of tilings to an evaluation strategy for combinatory logic. 20:52:10 imode: this comment specifically http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23779 20:53:09 nice, bookmarked. 20:54:54 b_jonas: ah thanks, I’ve finally found it! 21:34:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:40:35 -!- Essadon has joined. 21:57:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:08:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:23:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:25:11 is 1D wang tiling turing complete? 22:27:16 no 22:28:19 makes sense. what's the power of them, then? off the top of my head you could perhaps simulate a single stack machine. 22:38:57 hmm good question 22:39:05 I think they are somewhat trivial 22:39:30 you can rather easily decide if a set of 1d tiles will have a finite or infinite cover 22:39:44 you just need to find a cycle 22:42:13 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:57:28 imode: no, but there's something close to it that is, with two one-dimensional tilings and the tiles in them matching in sequence ... whatever is the name of that 22:58:05 it's called Post correspondance problem I think 22:58:09 also PCP 22:58:24 `? ance 22:58:25 Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c 22:58:35 `? 2 ance 22:58:36 2 ance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:58:41 `2 ? ance 22:58:43 2/2:e, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance. 22:58:46 `n 22:58:47 1/2:Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidenc 22:58:48 hmm 22:58:57 correspondance isn't common enough to go to that short truncated list 22:59:32 and it's actually spelled corespondence 23:00:06 as it should be obvious to anyone for etymology reasons, because all that spelling comes from old French and Latin 23:14:53 -!- aloril_ has changed nick to aloril. 23:47:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:49:52 -!- nfd has joined. 23:52:15 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 2018-12-28: 00:22:45 so I have a language. it's called Modal. Modal is based off of term rewriting, and its reduction strategy is based around a queue automata. it features three data structures in its implementation: a dictionary of variable bindings (global), a pattern buffer for matching and construction of new patterns, and an expression buffer that holds the current expression under evaluation. 00:24:17 imode: go on, I'm listening 00:25:19 I have a subproject, called Mode, which is like Modal, only the model of computation under consideration is combinatory logic. 00:26:08 I'm intending on showing a reduction from Modal to Mode, and then show a reduction from Mode to some kind of queue automata or, barring that, a string rewriting system, then to a queue automata. 00:26:37 my goal at the moment is to show a reduction from Mode to a queue automata. 00:27:41 the issue I'm having is the idea of interpreting combintory logic via a queue automata. it's mainly just confronting the idea of partial application/currying. 00:28:24 by combinatory logic, you mean that thing that birds like the Mockingbird do? 00:28:30 known birds at least 00:28:32 (if you're interested, the code for Modal's interpreter is at https://git.imode.tech ) 00:28:56 yes. the birds in that book represent predefined transformations on term trees. 00:29:37 https://git.imode.tech/?p=python/modal;a=blob;f=prelude.modal;h=d2ac42077ebee97a46937e18ef493338c021394a;hb=refs/heads/master some example Modal code. 00:30:51 my hope was to reduce Mode to just a bare queue automata with some special rules. i.e, cut away the pattern buffer. 00:31:10 err, cut away the dictionary and leave the pattern buffer. 00:31:42 so if modal is {Variable Bindings, Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, mode is {Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, and string rewriting is just {Expression Buffer}. 00:32:25 hmm, I think you'd mentioned this language before 00:32:42 Modal, that is 00:32:52 yeah, I've talked about it a bit in here. 00:35:13 the issue I'm encountering is the idea of partial application. normally, with queue-based evaluation, you check the head of the queue. depending on the combinator, dequeue its arguments in a special way into the pattern buffer, building up a new pattern. then, enqueue that pattern after you're done building it. 00:35:18 rinse and repeat. 00:37:43 but with partial application, the rules change. "``SK" in unlambda notation, for example, means "((S)K)". if we were to take this as a kind of rewriting system, we'd do something like the following to "represent" partially applied combinators: 00:38:05 ``SK -> ` 00:38:06 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `SK: not found 00:38:10 crap, sorry. 00:38:50 my point is that in order to implement partial application, you need to have a distinction between what's partially applied and not partially applied. 00:41:32 you can do that by saying "`AB -> ". so "````skkk" -> "```kk" -> "``k" -> "`" -> "```kk`kk" -> "```kk" -> "``" -> "`>" -> "`" 00:41:52 you add delimiters to clarify that this part of the string of applications has been partially applied. 00:42:24 that's irritating because, queue/string-wise, you now have two types of "spans". 00:42:59 I'll be right back. gotta shower. highlight me and I'll read back. 00:57:22 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: system upgrade). 00:58:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:03:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:04:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:11 [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58870&oldid=55677 * Areallycoolusername * (+376) /* Category? */ 01:09:36 [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58871&oldid=58870 * Areallycoolusername * (+33) /* Category? */ 01:19:48 -!- tromp has joined. 01:24:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:37:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:46:04 -!- Galaxymeow has joined. 01:46:13 -!- Galaxymeow has quit (Client Quit). 01:54:54 -!- tromp has joined. 01:59:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:11:19 [[PERPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58872 * Areallycoolusername * (+1023) Created page with "[[PERPLEX]] is an esolang created by [[Jussef Swissen]] (A pseudonym.) in 2014. It's basically a over-complicated version of BASIC. For example, PRINT is now INSCRIBE. Here's..." 02:13:00 [[Jussef Swissen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58873 * Areallycoolusername * (+86) Created page with "Jussef Swissen is a programmer that made [[PERPLEX]]. The name he uses is a pseudonym." 02:26:37 [[Talk:Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58874&oldid=58871 * Oerjan * (+60) /* Category? */ No date in signature 02:31:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:35:30 @metar ENVA 02:35:32 ENVA 280150Z 26013KT 3300 RA SCT005 BKN009 OVC011 04/04 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT 02:35:45 yeah that's about how humid it feels 02:35:58 @mtear KOAK 02:35:58 KOAK 280153Z 01007KT 10SM FEW200 12/M03 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP214 T01221033 02:36:24 i take it california is pretty dry again 02:38:25 no smoke here at least 02:38:32 my standards are low now hth 02:38:49 no smoke, no fire 02:49:54 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:50:07 `? descartes 02:50:10 descartes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:50:12 `? horse 02:50:14 A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse! 02:50:26 oh i guess we already have horses 02:50:27 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 02:53:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:10:55 -!- tromp has joined. 03:11:50 blorgh. 03:17:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:17:16 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:18:20 the only flaw I can find in combinatory logic is that partial application and currying, at least from what I can see, requires you to to differentiate between partially applied sequences of combinators. 03:18:20 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:18:40 -!- tromp has joined. 03:25:32 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:26:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:27:25 -!- MDude has joined. 03:35:32 -!- MDead has joined. 03:36:39 imode: hmm, what is the task precisely? make a queue automaton that can reduce CL terms represented by strings generated by the grammar T ::= 'S' | 'K' | '`' T T? 03:37:59 (hmm, you had lower case s and k, but that hardly makes a difference) 03:38:12 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:38:17 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 03:38:26 essentially yeah. that's unlambda notation. 03:39:50 I like the Unlambda notation for application. I used it in https://www.isa-afp.org/browser_info/current/AFP/Rewriting_Z/CL_Z.html ;) 03:40:45 (well, something that resembles it... it needed extra spaces and occarional parentheses to really work) 03:41:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:41:13 I dig it as well. it solidifies that you always need at least two combinators, so to speak. "apply" is actually an operation in that notation, and that's actually derived from schonfinkel's paper. 03:43:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:46:57 * int-e wonders how one mistypes 'r' for 's'... 03:47:51 did I do that? :o 03:47:58 No, I did :P 03:47:59 oh no. 03:48:03 lmao. 03:48:08 the keys are like right there man. 03:48:48 They're not adjacent. So clumsiness is an unlikely reason :) 03:48:50 it'r eary to do 03:52:55 ruse, if you do it insentionally 04:00:23 hint-e 04:00:33 Do you like ZDDs? 04:05:23 maybe 04:23:41 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:34:54 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:39:20 Now I made the program to use Glk with JavaScript. 05:09:23 -!- tromp has joined. 05:14:10 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:29:06 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:32:39 -!- Melvar has joined. 05:48:40 i see the people in girl genius are trying to raise a racket 05:50:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:03:14 -!- tromp has joined. 06:07:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:47:15 -!- uplime has quit (Quit: /quit and /part are in a boat. /part jumps out of the boat. who is left in the boat?). 06:56:50 -!- tromp has joined. 07:01:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:06:36 imode: ooph. http://paste.debian.net/1057746/ 07:24:18 int-e: interesting. unlambda interpreter? 07:24:46 wait... 07:25:02 is this a string rewriting system?! 07:26:53 holy shit. 07:35:39 imode: that's a queue automaton 07:35:59 -> 07:36:08 is the syntax I'm using 07:38:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:39:01 interesting. so you only examine a single symbol at the head of the queue, then enqueue some string. 07:40:39 just wow 07:42:22 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:00:52 that's really fascinating. how'd you whip that up so fast? 08:00:58 -!- tromp has joined. 08:04:35 golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ 08:05:41 imode: hmm, having an interpreter is crucial; and I had an inspiration how skipping over a subterm could work (that logic uses the # and % symbols, and involves the first four states) 08:06:24 interesting... I've been trying to get subterm extraction working with the unlambda notation. 08:09:05 In that logic, a % preceding a # somewhere has the effect of pushing the # one whole subterm further ahead. 08:10:14 Having % makes skipping over `XY easy: we've read the `, so we put it back, put a % that will eventually push the # over the Y, then skip X. That's the logic of the # state. 08:10:33 thaaaat... makes sense. 08:10:34 (if # encounters an s, it'll just skip over that and drop the # marker; same for k) 08:13:35 the question I have is can this be made combinator-agnostic. like it looks like you have specific interactions between specific combinators. if we had a larger basis, the state count would blow up. 08:19:12 Well, you'll have to add logic for all those combinators anyway, which will already blow things up. That said, you /can/ make the copying agnostic by some counting scheme (assign numbers to each symbol; decrement the symbol to 0 while copying; then you don't have to remember a whole symbol in a state) 08:19:44 you can also do some binary encoding, at the cost of a logarithmic number of states in the %/# handling. 08:20:23 true. still is a little unweildy though. ideally we'd have some kind of "schema" that generates these state tables from equational definitions of combinators. 08:21:07 or, you just add one pass over the whole string that replaces each combinator by the corresponding SK expression. 08:21:24 true. 08:21:40 you might get smaller reduction times, though, with different bases. 08:22:54 I was semi-golfing. I wanted a small number of extra symbols (3 right now, #, %, $) and a reasonably small number of states (20 now, not counting the halting state) 08:23:41 translating this to an SRS would be trivial. 08:24:02 almost trivial... you have to take care of the cyclic nature of the queue. 08:24:33 or you rewrite cycles ala https://www.win.tue.nl/~hzantema/cycrew.pdf 08:25:00 then it is trivial, just need to keep the states separate from the other symbols. 08:25:23 something that I dreamt of (was napping earlier) was a reduction from combinatory logic to wang tilings and something like a counter machine. 08:26:04 Anyway, the only thing I might want to add is 'i' and that's almost trivial... needs one extra state, I think. 08:26:34 (and that extra state is for copying) 08:29:01 so you have states for Sk and SK, and these denote an explicit interaction between S and K, right? 08:29:13 -!- user24 has joined. 08:29:36 I notice you don't have any for K applied to S. 08:29:52 but you do have them for S applied to S. 08:30:16 imode: those are copying states. I got rid of SK, SS and S' in the latest paste. 08:30:22 09:04:35 golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ 08:30:30 ahhh. 08:31:12 right. so if I were to add for example C, I'd need to show how C interacts with S and K. 08:36:32 C would be similar to S. 08:36:54 (moving a string over another one, or copying it, is basically the same amount of work) 08:39:02 http://paste.debian.net/1057755/ is what would be needed to implement `i`. So... basically all existing states get a new transition, and there's an Si state. This is atypical in that reducing `iX just removes the "`i" so that no marking of arguments or I* states are needed. 08:41:19 Anyway. Extensibility was not a goal. I wanted the default SK(optionally I) combinatory logic, nothing more. 08:42:10 it's awesome. :D 08:42:31 you've at least shown me a compact implementation. thank you! 08:56:27 -!- sprocklem has joined. 09:02:10 hm.. has anybody ever done wang tiling over arbitrary graphs, I wonder. 09:03:48 self-assembling graphs.. 09:15:06 wonder if there's a "background-agnostic" version of wang tiling, i.e "self-assembly" systems that don't rely on the idea of a planar backdrop to expand into. 09:38:59 -!- user24 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:11:15 hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop. 10:12:26 for example, a CA that, initially, has a confined area of space for rules to be applicable in, but by way of local interactions, that space can grow. 10:23:42 -!- laerling has joined. 11:10:29 I just had an epiphany. any system of combinators can be encoded as a set of wang tiles. any set of wang tiles is essentially a "crystalline" CA, where one axis is time. combinatory logic thus may be able to be encoded pretty cleanly into something like a cellular automaton, and that just broke my brain. 11:11:11 I am all the hype. 11:21:10 i don't think any of that is true 11:21:14 have you tried this out in practice 11:23:42 justification for 1: a wang tiling is essentially a historical graph for any arbitrary cellular automaton or turing machine. along the Y axis is your history, along the X axis is your "tape", or your space. if you just keep a copy of the "most recent" piece of history, you can restrict yourself to one dimension. 11:24:44 justification for 2: there exist encodings of combinatory logic within the context of wang tiles, such that the tilings formed by those tiles encode transformations of CL terms. it's a proposed method to write useful programs for self-assembling DNA tiles. 11:27:34 result (and hypothesis): any system of combinators can be simulated as a 1D cellular automaton by encoding it as a set of wang tiles and discarding the history of the tiling formed by those tiles. 11:30:47 if I'm right and all those pieces fit together (I don't see why they wouldn't), then this kind of paves the way for a massively parallel reduction machine for combinatory logic, and thus may give a solid foundation in hardware for incredibly fast high level languages based on CL. 11:34:04 like, imagine you had a processor that just had a giant 1D array of parallel computing elements, each of which is just a glorified state machine. pre-load each element with the right FSM, provide the initial input (the CL expression you want to evaluate), and watch it run. 11:49:16 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:49:28 ok I see what you mean 12:01:40 -!- shikhin has quit (Changing host). 12:01:40 -!- shikhin has joined. 12:11:24 -!- laerling has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:15:35 -!- laerling has joined. 12:16:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:23:04 -!- rain2 has joined. 12:24:13 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:07:49 -!- laerling_ has joined. 13:07:52 -!- laerling has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:19:25 -!- laerling_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:20:13 * int-e yawns 13:23:36 In retrospect I should've gone to bed instead of playing with queue automata :) 13:44:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:44:26 -!- b_jonas has joined. 13:44:29 `? very exponential 13:44:30 very exponential? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:31:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:38:04 Is this something like (10^100)^n ? 14:41:21 i'd say n^n 14:44:09 Meh, the two uses of "exponential"... 14:44:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:45:01 n^n = O(2^n^2) is EXP, but grows faster than any exponential function. 14:46:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:58:47 is that so? 14:59:25 isn't it just e^(n log n)? i can name a few exponential funktions that grow faster 15:00:04 here's what I mean by "exponential function": f(n) = a * b^n for constants a, b. 15:00:17 okay 15:01:03 so... a very exponential function is an exponential function that grows faster than exponential functions? 15:01:59 Complexity theorists mess this up because they close most their classes under polynomial time (or at least logspace) reductions. 15:03:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:15:06 -!- Essadon has joined. 15:27:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:31:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:38:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:41:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:41:54 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 16:04:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:28:56 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:09:55 -!- nchambers has joined. 17:16:50 `quote 17:16:51 76) I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... 17:19:07 `quote 17:19:08 459) I gave her the Noblesse Oblige rooms. She was happy with them even when they were behind 2 locked doors and a floodgate and full of water. 17:27:45 -!- derpy_ has joined. 17:29:58 -!- derpy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:51:22 `quote 17:51:23 958) i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives 17:57:19 that's a good one 17:57:50 oh it's an unexplored area of fiction 17:59:06 int-e: maybe it's unexplored, maybe you just don't read far enough into the longer pornographic Hitler fanfiction pieces 17:59:20 ... 17:59:22 ouch. 17:59:27 fungot: help! 17:59:28 int-e: we have in fnord relationships, that co-operation, the committee recognised that the proposals also included the albert kennedy trust from the 1990s, and the time to be the one to which i can attest, is still part of the governments considerations, and the then secretary of state. 17:59:44 fungot: thanks. 17:59:45 int-e: the eu and, for too many, and the care of fnord peers, and the home secretary that the government would conduct a form, people end up in the same as the one the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i, and, 18:00:17 my hon. and learned friend fungot is still in Brexit mode? 18:00:18 b_jonas: the country is the second biggest in the uk. when i will be available. i have been a minister in the house, which is saving it some of those regulations, but when the government have 18:03:08 second biggest in UK? that must be Scotland 18:04:06 fungot: what are the other news? 18:04:07 arseniiv: on the important question of constitutional and economic implications. it was the right hon. and hon. and right hon. 18:05:07 fungot: all economy these days. Aren’t there something new in the field of prepromorphisms? 18:05:07 arseniiv: what i have said, that the government introduced the new, tougher system under the education act 1996, the government actuarys report and john stevenson be members, including 150,000 acres, the entire way of thinking, the type that the hon. member the leave of the house, 18:05:39 well, 18:06:41 `? albert kennedy trust 18:06:42 albert kennedy trust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:07:19 I would be surprised if prepromorphisms was even in fungot's vocabulary for this style. (Not sure about the irc style... it seems unlikely, but might just be there.) 18:07:19 int-e: i do. we are to be fnord. i am right, that being speaker of the fnord 18:07:37 Every style has expert knowledge on fnords though. 18:09:07 do they have a category-theoretic style? 18:10:15 or at least Oleg Kiselyov style maybe (hm but why him) 18:11:27 fungot: finally tagless eh? 18:11:27 arseniiv: to be as we all anticipate following a very few exceptional circumstances, i have to have some of the highest at 25,800. local government, local government, and working-age people, can be considerable, and the only people to have suffered fnord under the eu arrangements 18:11:56 at least there is another fnord 18:14:35 if somebody’s interested, the last OpenMPT version, 1.28, now supports all (printable, I think) ASCII chars in custom tunings’ note names, when using a custom font for the pattern editor 18:16:28 (though there’s possibly a bug when rendering &, for me it displays as a color-inverted pipe currently) 18:17:18 (but it seems it should be fixable easily if it’s really OpenMPT’s bug and not something with my font) 18:18:30 arseniiv: that's appropriate. & is just a | with the inputs and output negated 18:19:52 lol :D didn’t think about it 18:21:40 `quote 18:21:41 235) actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia 18:38:40 -!- GeekDude has joined. 18:40:05 hmmmm beautiful documentation: http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/iSATLib/doc/iSATLibrary/ISatLibrary.html 18:41:15 (I think this is just meta information, perhaps "list of classes", "list of interfaces"... the actual documentation (where present) seems to be in English... but still... 18:42:27 It's a pity that it's written in Java though. 18:43:01 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 18:46:52 no encoding specified in html code :( 18:48:23 for some reason the only cases a wrong encoding is detected the last decade or so is for Japanese webpages only 18:48:30 for me 18:48:58 suspicious 18:49:52 arseniiv: hmm, nor in the HTTP headers 18:51:22 arseniiv: are you sure it's wrong encoding detected, as opposed to text snippets in multiple encodings mixed into the same HTML? 18:53:36 because mixed or corrupt encoded text is annoyingly common 18:54:34 I don’t want to overgeneralize but these Japanese encodings are… I mean, why do they seem to not care to indicate them each time, it should just be a bad luck 18:54:34 b_jonas: maybe, but if I select “Japanese” in autodetect encoding menu in Firefox, it goes normal, Japanese + English. Originally this time it was detected as a Cyrillic mess (+ English) 18:55:06 arseniiv: yes, it is worse in japanese 18:55:48 so maybe this is one encoding all the way, just as it’s not specified the browser thinks it should better parse all text with settings for my default languages 18:58:47 actually... my browser does misidentify the encoding as well 18:59:34 b_jonas: a pity, really. I mean, there’s possible a ton of pages in Win-1251 with no encoding maybe even in headers, and there should also even be that DOS encoding 866 or something somewhere, but I can’t easily see and usually don’t visit those kinds of pages — but what did they do to Javadoc to strip the encoding data, is it trivial at all, and if it’s not, why?.. (rhetoric) 19:00:59 (Win-1251 and that DOS one are Cyrillic encodings, they should probably be preferred when autodetecting with my lang settings) 19:09:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:10:26 -!- tromp has joined. 19:14:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:26:01 -!- tromp has joined. 19:40:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:40:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:41:03 that was quick 19:41:39 ? 19:41:42 In a C code will 'xy' equal ('x'*'\1\0'+'y'*'\0\1') even though 'xy' may be different by different computers? 19:41:44 oh. 19:42:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:42:29 zzo38: I don't think that's promised. it's impl'n-defined behavior, so read the manual of your architecture or compiler. 19:43:18 zzo38: Well, that's a GCC extension anyways. 19:43:42 (multi-character char literals are not ISO C in the slightest) 19:44:28 hmm, "implementation-defined"... 19:44:41 all bets are off since compiler writers can't be trusted to be reasonable ;) 19:57:08 Do you like the program I made to use Glk with JavaScript? Later I had found a implementation of Glk in JavaScript (mine uses an implementation in C), although the API does not match, although I think that my API is look like better, in my opinion. 20:01:19 The "vm" mechanism in Node.js does not have a function to execute a code with a separate call stack. 20:17:10 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:23:10 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:24:53 -!- imode has joined. 20:25:27 What's a "Glk"? 20:25:30 `? Glk 20:25:31 Glk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:26:51 https://www.eblong.com/zarf/glk/glk-spec-075.html ... fits one of zzo38's many interests (IF) 20:34:58 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 20:40:17 imode: re: implementing combinatory logic, most methods I've seen have the concepts of an S1 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 1 argument), an S2 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 2 arguments), and a K1 closure (i.e. K partially applied to 1 argument) 20:40:34 you don't really need a general system, just those three types of closure specifically 20:41:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:43:05 yeah, that's the method http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ describes 20:43:16 the simplest general system I know is the Underload-style system where things /start out/ as closures and just get escaped and unescaped 20:44:06 and composed 20:44:44 (…) a * ^ are the important operations for an Underload-alike to behave like a combinator calculus 20:44:55 : is sort-of irrelevant except that you need it for TCness 20:45:16 you could replace it with some other operation (S serves this purpose in SK combinator calculus) 20:45:52 and obviously, ~ ! S are hardly necessary (and were some of the first operations to be minimized out) 20:45:55 ais523: I figured as much. I've recently discovered a method of encoding CL terms and applications in wang tiles, and they appear to use a similar encoding to underload. 20:46:15 imode: What method is that? 20:46:36 am I permitted to post sci-hub links here? 20:47:02 that'd come under Freenode rules, and I'm guessing no 20:47:04 I don't know, but you could post the doi perhaps 20:47:32 you can post the name or a unique identifier of the paper and people would be able to find it their own way (e.g. many people here may have legitimate access to it) 20:48:06 I found a publically available PDF version: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf 20:49:45 Glk does not seems to have a style that is matching TAVERN's "Reverse" style. However, it is possible to determine if the story requires it or not, without trying to execute it. 20:52:17 by way of discarding all but the current bottom-most row in a tiling, CL reduction can look like a cellular automaton. 20:52:48 something akin to a smart shift register can reclaim the "dead space" used by applications. 20:53:59 brb 20:56:21 hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop. ← that reminds me of the 0E0P metacell in the Game of Life, although it isn't exactly the same thing 20:59:30 massively parallel reduction algorithms for things like lambda calculus, combinatory logic, and Underload-alikes are pretty easy to express, the problem is "internal" infinite loops 21:00:16 like, if you have something like "if (0) { } else { while(1); }" (except written functionally rather than imperatively), these parallel algorithms will be sending some of their threads to try to normalize the loop body 21:00:30 so you need some way to kill computations from outside when they're no longer needed 21:01:36 ais523: yeah, but ! being unncessary is kind of a surprise, because you know how the Mockingbird book has a whole chapter on how discarding is necessary 21:02:18 I'm still looking for that thing which is somewhere between a macro and an inline function. I don't know if it makes sense or if any language has it. 21:02:39 b_jonas: I don't think the wiki has an article on bitbuckets yet 21:02:49 but it's not normally too hard to maintain one 21:02:52 back. ais523: an implementation of CL in terms of a cellular automaton would still enable you to do that, but there's no "threading" going on. 21:03:42 fwiw, this is one of the many problems underlying Feather, and probably the one I've put the most effort into 21:03:52 I think this one is solvable, although some of the others aren't 21:06:12 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:07:04 ais523: yeah, the trick is probably that Mockingbird doesn't claim that you can't get Turing-completeness without discard. all it claims is that you can't get discarding combinators from non-discarding ones, so you can't get all combinators without one. 21:07:27 and that's what you found in Underload too: you can't get discard from the other primitives, instead you simulate it 21:08:14 right 21:08:17 sure, they're not really equivalent 21:08:21 Underload is a bit more powerful 21:10:14 now I'm wondering what an Underload→combinators compilation looks like 21:10:29 (the other way is fairly easy) 21:10:43 I think you might have to write a full interpreter including a Church-encoded stack 21:10:44 you'll probably have a linked list stack for that, plus optimize the top elements whenever you can resolve them at compile time 21:10:47 yeah, that 21:11:09 because Underload freely lets you write unbalanced loops 21:16:40 -!- uplime has joined. 21:22:37 are wang tiles generalizable to arbitrary graphs with a color requirement and out degree? 21:23:31 I guess it would just be degree. 21:36:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:38:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:01:03 I'd expect it to have to be infinite graphs (although finite Wang tiles could potentially be interesting for things like SAT-solving), but apart from that they generalise pretty simply 22:01:43 one issue is that the square grid that's normally used isn't quite a graph, because the edges at each point have identities (you can't permute them arbitrarily, e.g. you can't connect the N, E, S, W sides of the tile to the N, S, E, W adjacent squares respectively) 22:07:23 ais523: do you know anything about #SAT? I'm wondering whether https://github.com/marcthurley/sharpSAT is still state of the art. 22:08:28 no, I'm not very up to date with SAT solvers 22:08:38 http://beyondnp.org/pages/solvers/model-counters-exact/ had an overview. 22:09:03 It's comparatively easy for SAT, because of the SAT competitions. 22:09:27 also the name #SAT reminds me of complexity classes like #P 22:09:31 But #SAT is not quite the same, the tradeoffs are quite different. 22:09:50 (One thing I've learned is that #SAT is often called "model counting" in the literature) 22:09:51 ah right, it /is/ in fact the defining problem of #P 22:10:13 hmm, now I'm confused, maybe this is what you were talking about in the first place 22:10:25 But never mind then, it's just something that could have been in your area of interest. :) 22:11:06 it's the sort of thing that I'm broadly interested in despite not knowing much about 22:12:36 wait, count or parity? 22:12:51 the wafer grid means exact count, right? 22:13:00 yes, # is exact count 22:13:10 so #SAT is "how many ways are there to solve this boolean satisfaction problem?" 22:13:16 it would be a screwdriver head with a plus-shaped groove for parity 22:13:45 hmpf 22:13:52 \oplus, as they say in LaTeX 22:13:59 yeah 22:14:00 or ⊕ in Unicode 22:14:05 `unidecode ⊕ 22:14:06 ​[U+2295 CIRCLED PLUS] 22:14:41 I'd *expect* that finding the parity of the number of solutions is essentially as hard as counting them, but how would one go about proving or refuting such a claim? 22:15:07 int-e: you refute it by making determinant-signed counting easier 22:15:19 int-e: for #P at lesat 22:15:47 create matrix whose permanent is the count, then observe that the determinant has the same parity as the permanent, 22:15:52 and that you can solve the determinant fast 22:16:17 b_jonas: I know about permanents, but that just means that this is not a hard problem for parity-#SAT. 22:16:36 int-e: that's for #P versus (+)P 22:16:47 I've no clue about #SAT versus (+)SAT 22:16:59 there are some problems which obviously have an even number of solutions, but you can't easily determine how many there are 22:17:18 e.g. via exploiting a symmetry of the problem 22:17:35 ais523: or just adding a 2-valued variable that takes place in no constraint 22:17:42 but does that help? 22:17:49 we're concerned about the hardest problems 22:18:21 it doesn't matter if one specific input behaves differently 22:19:40 Ah, permanent is #P-complete. Hmm hmm. I should find a proof. 22:21:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:21:48 1979. Let's see. 22:23:42 int-e: yeah, it's so long after Euler, because for a very long time, nobody rediscovered complexity theory and SAT and Cook-Levin 22:25:18 (It's not clear, a priori, that such a reduction has to preserve the parity.) 22:31:12 ais523: interesting, what would a generalization of wang tiles be then? 22:32:22 imode: But Is It Art?? 22:33:04 the most direct would be generalizations to arbitrary tilings 22:33:13 BIIA? is more of a special case than a generalization 22:33:32 ais523: yeah, it works either way 22:34:08 you can simulate BIIA with Wang tiles, one tile per character cell, or backwards, Wang tiles with BIIA, each BIIA tile roughly same sized square shaped with different edges 22:34:14 so it's both 22:34:22 I think of it the latter way 22:34:25 right, they can each implement the other fairly directly 22:35:34 something _like_ wang tilings over general topologies are what I'm kind of wondering about. I think something like port graphs have something to say about this... 22:35:55 tilings rely on a background "plane" to do their thing. what happens if you get rid of that. 22:36:12 now you've got me thinking about Wang Penrose tiles 22:36:57 ais523: so different grid, only it's not quite a "grid"? 22:37:18 kinda yeah. 22:37:40 wang tiles but the arity requirements can vary per tile. 22:45:50 you can also tile the hyperbolic plane 22:46:08 right, tilings do generalize to non-Euclidean topologies 22:46:28 does the elliptic plane have infinite tilings? I'd expect them to all be finite 22:46:44 err, uniform tilings, that is 22:46:56 obviously you can create a non-uniform infinite tiling just by drawing lines at random 22:47:12 although it wouldn't be well-defined 22:47:23 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius.html - spot the heptagons :) 22:48:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:48:46 (I could make a version that has 4 regular pentagons meet at every vertex, hmm. Maybe some other time.) 22:50:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:53:21 int-e: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Order-4_pentagonal_tiling ? 22:53:49 Non-Euclidean geometries are awkward though in that translations generate rotations. 22:54:15 b_jonas: yep 22:55:35 can you make a better drawing of what I'm trying to show on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html ? 22:57:58 int-e: I happen to be listening to the soundtrack to HyperRogue at the moment, and that + the font in the title + the hyperbolic geometry in the link left me somewhat confused for a moment 23:00:02 hehe 23:00:29 Ruxor also has a web javascript thingy for showing a kind of Penrose aperiodic tiling too somewhere 23:00:56 Hmm, I'm lost... font in the title? 23:01:16 the font my browser uses to render the title on the page is the same font HyperRogue happens to use for all its in-game text, including titles 23:01:38 yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-04-24.2512.html 23:02:11 ais523: title on which page? my page? my page doesn't set the font, it leaves it as the client default 23:02:33 my page doesn't set a font either. http://roguetemple.com/z/hyper/ has an image in the headline. 23:02:41 b_jonas: the page int-e linked 23:02:58 I think my browser is probably set to use the same font as HyperRogue for titles if no font is specified by coincidence 23:03:14 hmm, let me check. I usually have font overrides disabled, so I don't see original fonts on webpages 23:03:23 font changes on webpages are abused more often than they're used well 23:03:30 I think it is, specifically, DejaVu Sans 23:03:35 and when they're used well, that's because of limitations of web infrastructure 23:04:33 yeah, default font 23:04:35 DejaVu Serif here (I may have selecte "serif" as a standard somewhere) 23:04:49 I think it might be interesting to see what the Web would look like if sites had no method of forcing layout at all 23:04:54 just semantic tags and the browser chooses layout 23:04:54 wait, int-e.eu ? is this a new domain? 23:05:05 new? 23:05:12 but it's not possible, people will always try to find a way to force layout 23:05:14 dunno, I don't recall seeing it 23:06:03 Well, there's not all that much there. But it should appear in the logs. I've had it for some years. 23:06:29 ais523: yeah. you can't have fancy scripting and images and canvases but no fonts. that'd just lead to webpages emulating fonts the slow way. 23:06:45 people used to force layout back before CSS was widespread… 23:07:01 ais523: yes, and table is still very useful, because CSS gets complicated 23:07:07 Almost 6 years by now. 23:07:19 before flex were supported, we definitely needed tables to do some sorts of layout on the web 23:07:23 b_jonas: not for layout, please don't do that as it makes it very hard for end users to make styling tweaks 23:07:23 no matter what the CSS guys said 23:07:31 and I think even now with flex supported, tables might still be useful 23:07:36 and for screen readers and the like to understand the page 23:07:39 but I could be wrong in that, I don't yet understand how the heck flex works 23:07:53 ais523: but some layouts are just impossible to write without tables 23:07:55 CSS flex is missing lots of features I'd like to use, but those features generally aren't possible with tables either 23:07:57 or very hard at least 23:09:33 I think that not only fonts, but also fancy images, scripts, canvas, and layout are also abused much. Forcing layout (and perhaps also fonts) are probably more useful for paged media than continuous anyways, I should think (but even for paged media the user may wish to override them). 23:09:45 there's a reason the bottom-right corner of The Waterfall Model Online isn't used for anything, for example 23:10:02 I have font overrides disabled on my web browser, although I would want to enable font overrides for SVG and PDF but disabled for HTML; but, it doesn't seems to do that. 23:10:23 (it has a few abuses of CSS Flex to automatically adapt to small screens, but the effects that that has on z-order makes that area unusable in a large-screen layout without making it show up on top of other text in a small-screen layout) 23:10:45 zzo38: also overlapping stuff, truncating stuff, and line-height. seriously, line-height! have you EVER seen an actually good use of line-height in a webpage, as opposed to in a non-HTML printed document? 23:11:23 one thing I dislike is the way that styles are seen as something for the site to provide, rather than something for the user to provide 23:11:33 but sites are forced into adding at least minimal styling because most default stylesheets are terrible 23:11:39 ais523: yeah, and CSS conditionals just aren't powerful enough yet to handle all the things you want for adapting to different heigths 23:11:46 ais523: Yes, although with suitable extensions the user can provide. 23:12:14 also many webpages abuse adapting to different screen sizes by changing their webpage on small sizes to hide important interface elements 23:12:17 I have ranted about that, right? 23:12:41 about that webpage that hides the password change option unless you view it in a wide browser window 23:13:06 b_jonas: Yes, that is true, too. When I design webpages there usually is no or minimal CSS, and rarely any images, but I use the accesskey attribute more often. Scripts are rare except for stuff which is used optionally (such as the MD5 calculation on my database of Magic: the Gathering cards; you can just as well use a different MD5 implementation if you want an account, too). 23:13:39 I rarely use CSS except to override the CSS to webpages that already have CSS. For webpages that do not have CSS it is rare to need to add any. 23:14:27 Do you think so? 23:15:30 Tables are useful for making a table or grid of data. 23:15:42 what I'd still like to find out is how to add both mathml and legacy html for non-mathml-capable browsers in a sane way 23:15:55 why doesn't mathml has a built-in way to add fallbacks, like img and script do? 23:16:20 I hate whoever designed them without a fallback 23:16:27 makes the whole thing worthless 23:16:28 b_jonas: Not sure whether those images can be improved. One thing that might be interesting to exhibit difference is to choose the color based on the area of each polyhedron... and perhaps the number of vertices. 23:16:58 int-e: they could be improved by rendering them more precisely and at a larger area. only my code is very simple and too slow to do that. 23:17:05 it wouldn't be hard to compute it properly 23:17:17 Oh are you brutally computing nearest neighbours? 23:17:28 but yes, choosing color well in some way is also a hard problem 23:17:32 int-e: yeah :-( 23:17:35 it was a quick experiment 23:18:05 b_jonas: Sorry that may have come across as far more judgemental than it should be... I'd probably do the same. 23:18:16 well, it's a good first pass to check how it works 23:18:26 but then I could optimize it if I spent some time on it 23:18:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:19:10 * int-e isn't really into computational geometry. 23:20:31 But actually... you can estimate the area based on pixels. Counting corners is harder :) 23:21:11 I don't think you should color just according to number of corners or area. You could compute it, but I don't think that's the output I want. 23:23:51 the idea is that in 2D you tend to have clusters of several small polygons, while in higher dimensions you actually get isolated small polygons much more frequently. 23:24:19 And that's something that may become visible when coloring by area. I may also be completely wrong. 23:24:58 int-e: yeah, but I'd prefer not to have adjacent areas with a similar color 23:25:10 my random coloring fails that 23:27:54 Ideally it should be a vector graphic and then one could actually draw edges... 23:28:19 But I'd be too lazy to actually do it. 23:32:42 int-e: you coudl do it, but you needn't. you can just optimize the pixel graphics properly. 23:47:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 23:57:19 b_jonas: So the 1979 paper (Valiant, "The complexity of computing the permanent") is inconclusive about the relation between (+)SAT and #SAT. The reduction to permanent multiplies the number of solutions by some 4^e where e = Theta(|F|), F being the input which is a formula in CNF with no unit clauses. 2018-12-29: 00:10:56 computing by self assembly is my new thing to get excited about. 00:13:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:26:22 what is considered more fundamental: uniform spaces or arbitrary spaces? 00:27:12 arbitrary graphs vs. lattices, I suppose. 00:29:16 part of me says that grids and spaces are more fundamental, but part of me says that arbitrary graphs can express arbitrary topologies, and that includes grids and spaces. 00:30:22 been leaning more towards the former, because any graph needs to be embedded in something to have any kind of meaning. 00:30:41 so your first choice of space has to be something like uniform 2D or 3D or 1D space. 00:58:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:02:58 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:19:56 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 01:22:18 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:22:37 Okay, people don't seem to believe that ⊕P is hard, and have some evidence to the contrary. "P^⊕P is not known to even contain NP." ""there is a relativized universe where P = ⊕P ≠ NP = PP = EXPTIME" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parity_P 01:23:10 And I learned about Toda's theorem. Fun stuff. 01:24:39 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:25:38 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 01:25:41 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 01:25:46 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!). 01:27:36 -!- ATMunn has joined. 01:27:49 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 01:28:11 -!- moony has joined. 02:05:06 int-e: i don't think they believe it's actually in P, as that would imply PH in BPP by the other toda's theorem fact mentioned 02:06:45 No, but they do seem to believe that it's easier than #P. 02:12:38 But actually it's quite hard to find anything tangible when it comes to relating ⊕P and #P. 02:18:08 "⊕P contains the graph isomorphism problem" is obviously relevant. 02:20:14 oerjan: did you see http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ ? 02:21:01 (SK combinatory logic as a queue automaton... discussion from last night... morning... whatever) 02:30:55 -!- b_jonas has joined. 02:31:09 int-e: no, it's not relevant. graph isomorphism is probably in P 02:31:23 b_jonas: it is relevant because we don't know that yet 02:31:55 b_jonas: so in particular there is no parity-preserving polynomial time reduction from #SAT to permanents. 02:31:58 known. 02:32:12 hmm, I guess that does make it relevant 02:32:19 sort of 02:32:33 dunno 02:40:08 int-e: shouldn't line 47 have a ` at the beginning of the inserted string? 02:41:46 oerjan: nope, 3 has only 2 consumed `. 02:42:02 oerjan: an evil trick, I'll admit. 02:42:23 oerjan: note that line 41 doesn't erase the ` 02:42:27 oh 02:43:46 `? cold 02:43:47 cold? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:44:16 @metar LOWI 02:44:16 LOWI 290220Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW090 M04/M05 Q1031 02:47:54 learn The cold never bothered me anyway. 02:48:20 `trouble 02:48:31 treble 02:49:05 203 02:49:11 hmmm. 02:49:45 `' 02:49:46 902) I do study philosophy of much. 02:55:09 `' 203 02:55:10 203) * quintopia sits on gregor 02:55:20 `? * 02:55:21 Twinkle, twinkle, little star! 02:57:06 `wisdom 02:57:07 ​klein bottle//A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside. 02:57:11 `wisdom 02:57:12 ​tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 02:57:31 `? _46bit 02:57:32 _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him. 02:57:44 `wisdom 02:57:44 ​dingbat//dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft. 02:57:50 heh 02:57:51 `wisdom 02:57:52 ​b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. 02:58:04 oh, that nonsense is still there 02:58:05 `wisdom 02:58:07 ​cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs* 02:58:11 `wisdom 02:58:11 ​urbandictionary//Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database. 02:58:21 `quote 02:58:21 694) fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord 02:58:36 yeah, true 02:58:45 only in new zealand 02:58:56 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/g/s/ 02:59:19 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/.g/Es/ 02:59:41 @brain 02:59:42 Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed. 02:59:56 New Zealand was invented by Jules Verne, to give a starting location for the novel Deux ans des vacances. 02:59:58 but perhaps that would make it historically incorrect 02:59:59 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 03:00:38 @. leet brain 03:00:38 HER3 we 4Re, pINKy--aT +H3 da\/\/n 0f TIME! 03:00:43 @pinky 03:00:44 The game does not conclude until the woman with the eating disorder ululates. 03:01:27 ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackego 03:01:28 32) `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that \ 70) let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one \ 306) `quote django ​352) djan 03:01:59 `5 03:02:01 1/2:575) That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count. \ 978) prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric \ 436) elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'. \ 1132) I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it Taneb: stop complianing 03:02:02 `n 03:02:04 2/2: \ 810) i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft 03:02:16 ``` allquotes | grep -Ei lambdabot 03:02:17 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] I need to learn more Haskell... ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) rest in peace lambdabot???? monqy: it'll probably be back later nap in peace \ 494) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver s 03:02:46 `quote 352 03:02:46 352) The wickedest man of all. Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. you talking about me again? Yes. k 03:02:57 wait 03:03:01 ooh 03:03:02 can I just use 03:03:05 `quote 306 03:03:05 306) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one thankfully only two 03:03:11 `quote HackEgo 03:03:11 32) `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that \ 70) let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one \ 306) `quote django ​352) djan 03:03:16 embedding quote numbers in a quote is evil. 03:03:17 yeah 03:03:38 b_jonas: except for the -i perhaps 03:03:41 `quote HackEso 03:03:42 No output. 03:03:50 ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackeso 03:03:50 `quote Hackego 03:03:51 No output. 03:03:51 32) `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that \ 70) let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one \ 306) `quote django ​352) djan 03:04:00 ah 03:04:09 I [sic] didn't know that. 03:04:28 ``` allquotes | grep -Ei "hacke[^g]" 03:04:28 852) i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news but at what cost? your very soul, kmc! \ 974) i'm not actually competent at hacking things ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] [face shoved in toile 03:05:42 ``` allquotes | grep -Ei geordi 03:05:43 No output. 03:05:47 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:17:32 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:25:00 -!- uplime has changed nick to uptime. 03:41:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:43:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:44:48 int-e: i think you can merge S4 with one of S1 or S2 03:45:42 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:46:17 or even with K1 03:48:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:48:22 actually K0 and K1 look mergeable 03:52:59 mm. willl think about it after sleep 04:13:08 -!- tromp has joined. 04:17:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:34:31 there's a desirable attribute of a theory in physics called background independence. it's the idea that the theory is independent of any given "background", or shape or space. in general relativity, for example, the "shape" of space is indirect. 04:36:02 bring on them tensors 04:36:06 it's nice because it reduces your assumptions. rather than working with specific surfaces or manifolds, you have to worry very little about the overall structure of what the objects of your theory are riding on. 04:36:51 wang tiling, or similar space-oriented models of computing, is pretty simple, but relies on a fixed background, that of the 2D euclidean plane. 04:38:04 granted there can be 3D wang "cubes", as well as 1D wang "strings" of various computational powers, but they always assume some kind of regular rectangular lattice as the "backdrop". 04:40:00 turing machines also assume a "background": the space that contains the tape and the read/write head. for CL/LC, it's the space of the expression. 04:41:20 my question is, what does a "background-independent" model of computation look like? I posit that it looks something like a cellular automaton, and as a result I posit that wang tiles can be "freed" of their background. 04:43:32 my reasoning is that cellular automata only require a definition of "points in space" and the concept of a neighbor. 05:06:54 [[TOWCBL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58875 * ShareMan * (+4530) Completed part of the page on TOWCBL 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:16:57 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:40:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:49:04 -!- tromp has joined. 07:53:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:01:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:15:00 -!- uptime has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 08:19:53 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 08:38:03 -!- tromp has joined. 08:52:47 -!- arseniiv has joined. 08:56:13 @tell ais523 thank you! 08:56:13 Consider it noted. 09:46:25 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:49:23 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:55:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superstrijder15 * New user account 10:00:06 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58876&oldid=58847 * Superstrijder15 * (+547) /* Introductions */ 10:16:32 [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58877&oldid=19914 * Superstrijder15 * (+756) /* Missing syntax info */ new section 11:40:56 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:44:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:51:02 -!- rain1 has joined. 11:52:08 -!- rain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:56:21 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 11:56:21 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:57:29 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:57:35 `? for 12:57:36 for? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:57:42 `? fortran 12:57:44 FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape. 12:57:45 `? smalltalk 12:57:46 smalltalk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:58:30 fungot, did our hon. and learned ancestors wrote programs in FORTRAN on punch cards? 12:58:31 b_jonas: i was the minister, the fear, the terror of the refugees, among the many attending the local gps and pharmacies free in the uk but, shockingly, the report uncovers the challenges, the government have 12:58:45 `? C 12:58:46 C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault 12:58:47 `? lisp 12:58:48 lisp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:58:49 `? scheme 12:58:51 scheme? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:59:46 -!- MDude has joined. 13:00:11 Surely C is not that ba^%*@13Segmentation fault. Core dumped. 13:00:58 is FORTRAN named from that because "FOR" is the keyword it's using for counter loops? 13:01:37 I'm pretty sure "FOR" is for "FORMULA" 13:02:19 because you could actually write x+y instead of LOAD x, ADD y 13:08:51 And the "TRAN" is at least said to be from "translation". 13:20:42 sure, it translates counter loops to increment, compare, and jump underneath 13:20:49 and branch 13:21:41 and sometimes decrease instead of increase, if it's a backwards counter loop 13:22:33 [[Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58878&oldid=26089 * Salpynx * (+30) /* External resources */ update specification link to archived version 13:23:10 b_jonas: I'm afraid you're not absurd enough to be funny and your etymology is almost certainly wrong. 13:23:17 yeah 13:24:16 it has nothing to do with the name "FORTRAN", I just figured that "for" is another of those strange syntaxes that fortran and C popularized so much that everyone knows those counter loops are "for" loops even when they don't program fortran or C 13:24:55 it's like equals signs for assignment: FORTRAN and C won over smalltalk and APL, so we use an equals sign, not a left arrow 13:25:06 don't forget Pascal, BASIC, and Modula 13:25:22 (regarding for loops) 13:25:41 sure, Pascal and BASIC probably inherited those keywords from FORTRAN 13:26:05 I think of FORTRAN and C as the more popular and influential languages, rather than BASIC and Pascal 13:26:14 I know almost nothing about Modula 13:26:23 who'd have thought that an early programming language could be so influential... 13:26:35 :P 13:26:55 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:27:39 yeah, it's just that 13:27:40 Modula is similar to Pascal but adds a module system. It came out too late; I believe that in practice Turbo Pascal's units have seen a lot more use. 13:29:43 I believe ALGOL (which is roughly contemporary with FORTRAN) was pretty influential too, and it also uses "for". 13:30:00 for whatever reason 13:30:01 Sadly, the practice of using typeface (or underlining) to distinguish keywords didn't really get picked up from ALGOL. 13:30:28 > nub "kjhalksdha" 13:30:30 "kjhalsd" 13:30:49 Most programmers like short words. 13:30:52 I used to have a book that told you how to mechanistically translate between FORTRAN 2, FORTRAN 4 and ALGOL 60, for a few different machines. 13:31:01 Picked it up from the discard pile of the university library. 13:31:27 FORTRAN and C were influential about syntax. smalltalk and lisp were much less so. even when languages use dynamic allocation and object orientation with prototypes and overridable methods and instance variables like smalltalk, they barely take any of smalltalk's syntax. 13:32:03 the vertical bars of rust originate from smalltalk through ruby, but note that smalltalk uses them for declaring local variables, but ruby and rust uses them for declaring formal parameters. 13:32:18 and perhaps the "let" keyword comes from lisp 13:33:56 fizzie: I did use underlining for some keywords when I made paper backups of some of my programs on the SHARP EL-5120 calculator. that calculator represents keywords as single bytes in the program, and the editor edits them as if they were single characters of up to 6 cells wide on the display 13:34:15 keywords include "GOTO " and "exp " 13:35:09 [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58879&oldid=58877 * Salpynx * (+489) /* Missing syntax info */ check out the updated resources section 13:38:10 and of course C popularized the & and | for bitwise and logical operators, even to languages like rust that don't use C precedence order 13:40:26 also ^ and << and >> for bitwise xor and bitshifts respectively 14:01:26 @tell oerjan update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/ 14:01:26 Consider it noted. 14:01:35 @tell imode update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/ 14:01:35 Consider it noted. 14:01:46 . o O ( @tell is not useful for spamming ) 14:01:55 it's allowed in 17 states, or forbidden in 17 states? 14:02:07 yes. 14:02:40 and which state finally gave in? LA? 14:04:12 now why doesn't that paste have syntax hilighting? 14:07:35 `? COMPLEX 14:07:37 COMPLEX? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:07:43 `? BASIC 14:07:44 BASIC? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:07:47 `? basic 14:07:49 basic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:07:53 `grWp COMPLEX 14:07:55 bezout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has is equal to the product of one less than the degrees of the polynomials. \ bézout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has 14:08:03 `? complex 14:08:06 `? INCOMPREHENSIBLE 14:08:07 complex? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:08:08 INCOMPREHENSIBLE? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:08:13 whyyy 14:08:20 arseniiv: it's a MYSTERY 14:08:25 `? MYSTERY 14:08:27 MYSTERY? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:08:35 `? fungot 14:08:35 :((((( 14:08:36 int-e: there is a need, therefore, the more we will be accused of and held the world land speed record. he is to be enormously proud to be the only one, in the house, 14:08:37 fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 14:09:24 hmm, have I also added one about 14:09:26 `? rademacher 14:09:27 rademacher? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:09:28 `? rademacher's theorem 14:09:29 rademacher's theorem? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:09:31 nope 14:09:34 perhaps I should 14:09:37 I keep forgetting what it is 14:09:43 but then I also keep forgetting what its name is 14:09:56 luckily the wisdom database is searchable 14:09:58 @google reidemeister moves 14:09:59 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reidemeister_move 14:10:19 wow the images at the top are atrocious 14:10:40 dear fungot don’t you maybe know why I have almost no memory left when updating Win7 on VirtualBox and it’s nowhere to be indicated that it is VirtualBox’s processes that demand so much of it 14:10:41 arseniiv: at the very least, the government get the short-term and that the issues of the most concern the minister that the government will 14:11:06 ^style 14:11:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube 14:11:12 I can’t even open my beloved^W firefox now 14:11:21 it instacloses 14:12:09 is youtube style interesting? what data does it use? 14:12:11 fungot: The government will what? 14:12:11 fizzie: to my british partners and have undermined the ability of the government to 14:12:25 arseniiv: try to open it with the --no-remote --ProfileManager parameters, or whatever the equivalent of they are for your version of firefox, since they keep changing command-line syntax 14:12:27 fungot: The government to WHAT? Why do you stop like that. 14:12:27 fizzie: have the government made the decision, with the ability to make the public any knowledge. 14:12:52 arseniiv: It's not particularly good, it's based on semi-manually scraped comments from a handful of videos someone gave me. 14:13:07 arseniiv: From what I recall, it's mostly about plane crashes and maybe 9/11 conspiracy theories. 14:13:11 ^style youtube 14:13:11 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 14:13:15 fungot: Steel beams, jet fuel. 14:13:15 fizzie: i know is metal gear, but this was a ok movie about 30 minutes until the time this releases. i posted the same 14:13:26 Well, that's probably a different video. 14:13:31 :D 14:13:57 (I want my memory back, vile VirtualBox!) 14:15:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:15:30 now I'm trying to figure out what I'm being thanked for 14:15:35 @messages- 14:15:35 arseniiv said 5h 19m 22s ago: thank you! 14:16:29 haha for that TIO 14:16:57 TIO info* 14:33:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:36:02 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:40:04 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:44:19 -!- sftp has joined. 14:49:42 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:14:00 a new IOCCC has just started, btw: mentioning it here because I know many #esoteric denizens are interested in obfuscated coding 15:14:16 deadline is in March, so there's plenty of time to write submissions 15:16:18 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the international corncob for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | 2019 IOCCC ends March 15th -- http://www.ioccc.org/2019/rules.txt | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 15:23:42 -!- nchambers has joined. 15:25:55 ais523: oh wow 15:26:02 let me check 15:26:18 and yes, I'm interested. perhaps more so than in esoteric languages. 15:33:26 Gregor won the IOCCC one year 15:33:34 `footnote 15:33:34 cat: 'wisdom/footnote ': No such file or directory 15:33:35 so this channel does have some success 15:33:49 `` echo wisdom/footnote* 15:33:50 wisdom/footnote 1 wisdom/footnote 8 15:33:55 `footnote 8 15:33:56 Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes⁺? 15:34:02 A classic. 15:34:12 `footnote 1 15:34:12 May contain nuts. 15:35:00 The win was in the "Most surprisingly portable" category, which was nice. 15:36:53 I don't get it. Guidelines say "| The reason for the time of day due to Erdős, an amazing mathematician / ! that at least one of the IOCCC judges had the pleasure of working with." 15:37:21 what's the exclamation mark for, and how does the times of the day above connect to him? 15:39:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 15:39:51 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:42:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:42:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:46:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:51:02 `? standard 15:51:03 standard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:53:53 there should be a pun in that entry, using the double meaning of "standard" between technology standards and the stuff that the small Flagbearer carries, and the double meaning of "target" between what you compile to and the M:tG technical meaning 15:54:32 like, you port your code to target the standard if possible, or cast your spell to target the standard if possible 15:56:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:56:34 b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erd%C5%91s%E2%80%93Borwein_constant and https://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php/160669.html are relevant for the 16:06:69. 16:01:57 int-e: thanks 16:07:00 wait... guidelines also says "the speaker of your national pariliment". is that apparent typo deliberate? 16:07:20 my hon. and learned friend, do you ever speak in your national pariliment? 16:07:27 um 16:07:31 my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you ever speak in your national pariliment? 16:07:31 b_jonas: i hope you die of god damn cancer you're so ignorant and rude and stupid. who taught you that. 16:15:56 1 cup salted butter, 1/2 cup sugar, 2 cup flour. 16:16:08 leave butter to soften to room temperature then mix in sugar until homogenous. then sift in flour and mix again. form into a ball and cool in the fridge for 10 minutes, then roll to 1 cm thick and cut into cookies. bake 20 min at 325 degrees F, cool 10 min and bake again same thing. 16:19:04 shrtbred cookies 16:19:15 "sift in flour"? seriously? 16:19:49 b_jonas: is that the correct verb for pouring the flour thru a sieve? 16:20:17 probably, I don't know 16:20:36 I think the point is to prevent the flour from clumping 16:20:44 `card-by-name sift 16:20:45 Sift \ 3U \ Sorcery \ Draw three cards, then discard a card. \ ST-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, A25-C \ \ Sift Through Sands \ 1UU \ Instant -- Arcane \ Draw two cards, then discard a card. \ If you've cast a spell named Peer Through Depths and a spell named Reach Through Mists this turn, you may search your library for a card named The Unspeakable, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. \ CHK-C, DDS-C \ \ Sifter Wurm \ 5GG \ Creature -- Wurm \ 7/7 \ 16:25:14 This recipe is formed by taking some recipe from online and using only the ingredients we actually had namely butter, sugar, flour 16:47:45 b_jonas: I've given up on the 8607 or 0.8607 or whatever the second time of day is. 16:48:43 ok 16:49:03 (0.8607 turns up in a PhD thesis on phase transitions in random graphs that cites Erdos, but that's not convincing.) 16:50:58 though the exact expression looks impressive. https://edoc.hu-berlin.de/bitstream/handle/18452/16311/seierstad.pdf is that thesis. 17:02:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:03:49 @messages- 17:03:49 int-e said 3h 2m 22s ago: update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/ 17:09:24 int-e: -- &: skip over remainder of the queue and switch to @. <-- it could find a % first, couldn't it? 17:09:59 at least in the version i looked at first, it seemed like you might occasionally move one marker while there was still progress to made on a later one. 17:11:06 oerjan: Right, the description is a bit inaccurate in that point. 17:11:37 My excuse is that everything would still work and just be a bit slower with & % -> % & 17:12:30 Oh the line numbers disappeared along with the syntax hilighting. That's inconvenient. 17:14:45 Hah, it's your fault. 17:14:52 wat 17:15:38 (i just used the link from your @tell) 17:15:44 oerjan: http://paste.debian.net/1057920/ is the same with Ø replaced by Oe 17:16:13 I find that ridiculous. 17:16:17 `? Ø 17:16:18 shocking 17:16:18 ​ø is not going anywhere. 17:16:28 `? Ørjan 17:16:29 Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. 17:25:52 ah i see you also noted # # was redundant, i was going to comment on that 17:26:06 @tell imode http://paste.debian.net/1057921/ has syntax hilighting. 17:26:06 Consider it noted. 17:26:30 yes. invariants are tricky :) 17:27:52 Anyway, I'm fairly happy with it now. 17:28:14 (is there any change from *20 to *21) 17:28:34 tweaking comments... 17:28:55 I added to &: Optimization: switch to % when a % is encountered along the way. 17:29:09 And I changed S2 to S1 in the description of D. 17:29:43 Maybe I should use gist for this. 17:33:47 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58880&oldid=58855 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2855) Replaced content with "LolKek - is modification Brainfuck" 17:34:51 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58881&oldid=58880 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+4) 17:39:50 -!- imode has joined. 17:45:42 int-e: i think in line 206-207 you can make the right sides 0 and 1 instead of @ and ` @ 17:47:56 hmm. true. 17:50:32 (but for 208 it's alas unknown whether to use 2 or 3) 17:53:32 [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58882&oldid=58881 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+32) 17:59:09 [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58883&oldid=55671 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3023) Replaced content with "Fuck This" 17:59:53 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58884&oldid=57884 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-10319) Blanked the page 18:00:22 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58885&oldid=57033 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2840) Blanked the page 18:00:47 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58886&oldid=57561 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3142) Blanked the page 18:01:59 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58887&oldid=58669 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-37287) Blanked the page 18:04:01 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58888&oldid=58887 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+386) 18:04:17 WTF?! 18:04:35 Uh oh 18:05:06 [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58889&oldid=57384 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-1991) Replaced content with "'''V" 18:05:10 wait, did that say [[Main Page]]? 18:05:52 Yes. 18:05:59 [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58890&oldid=58883 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+3) 18:06:08 They blanked their own page... and then they started this. 18:06:36 I'm hoping oerjan or ais523 will revert all this, this is too much for a simple user. 18:07:18 Who else is admin, fizzie maybe. 18:07:59 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58891&oldid=58888 * B jonas * (+36889) rv blanking rev to 07:21, 4 September 2018 by Rdebath 18:09:27 [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58892&oldid=58890 * B jonas * (+3020) rv two edits by MAXXXIM to rev 12:57, 13 June 2018 Ais523 18:10:13 Hmm. was https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=58888 an attempt to undo things? 18:10:21 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58893&oldid=58884 * B jonas * (+10319) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 16:46, 1 October 2018 Zzo38 18:11:24 Anyway, :( 18:11:29 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58894&oldid=58886 * B jonas * (+3142) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 23:18, 11 September 2018 B jonas 18:12:02 oops 18:12:06 what in the world is going on? 18:12:24 Somebody threw a temper tantrum on a wiki. 18:12:32 how lovely.. 18:12:34 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58895&oldid=58885 * B jonas * (+2840) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 11:22, 25 July 2018 GDavid. yes it's very funny, now please stop. 18:13:37 [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages 18:14:02 also thanks for the followup with that queue automaton, int-e. :D 18:14:14 It's interesting that it started with a reasonable edit to their own language page. 18:14:49 [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58896&oldid=58889 * B jonas * (+1991) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 06:40, 20 August 2018 Madk 18:15:02 are they a new user? 18:15:34 Or, no... they blanked it first. 18:16:05 09:30, 23 December 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+168)‎ . . Esolang:Introduce yourself ‎ (→‎Introductions) 18:16:09 pretty new. 18:16:15 lmao. 18:16:24 hehe, nice euphemism 18:16:48 *inserting* nonsense/gibberish into pages 18:17:14 i didn't bother to check out too carefully what they'd actually done, so just picked a close reason 18:17:34 "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." 18:17:51 never saw that before on the front page.. huh. 18:18:50 imode: someone came on this channel and said it (probably someone who expect it to be about something else), we just had to use it :P 18:18:57 `quote solidity 18:18:58 240) enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity 18:19:11 beautiful. 18:19:24 *expected 18:20:23 b_jonas: this might be an argument against your opinion we should allow non-english pages >:P 18:21:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:22:15 and we should not allow bushy moustaches because Stalin had a moustache 18:24:36 (the tantrum was from the same guy who made that russian one) 18:24:59 b_jonas: also hitler 18:25:16 and that one we actually _don't_ allow 18:25:42 oerjan: I don't think Hitler's moustache was bushy though 18:25:55 anyway, thanks for helping reverting 18:29:11 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58897&oldid=58891 * Oerjan * (+12) Reinstate small clarification (because people keep missing the joke otherwise) 18:31:03 "REINSTATE" takes a pres participle, so that would be "REINSTATE SMALL CLARIFYING" I think 18:31:33 [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Oerjan * changed block settings for [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 18:13, 5 January 2019 (account creation disabled): Removing content from pages 18:32:09 b_jonas: i'm pretty sure you're wrong 18:33:03 oh it's an intercal joke 18:33:39 . o O ( fine, you got me ) 18:33:56 also fixed the block reason 18:36:51 `? flagpole 18:36:52 A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top. 18:36:57 `? standard 18:36:58 standard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:07 ah yes 18:37:13 we have an entry for that 18:37:18 `? flag 18:37:19 flag? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:26 `? banner 18:37:27 banner? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:46 `le/rn standard//Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole. 18:37:48 Learned 'standard': Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole. 18:38:08 `? flagpole 18:38:09 A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top. 18:38:27 `? tadpole 18:38:29 A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter. 18:39:12 `? flapgole 18:39:13 flapgole? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:39:14 `? flapgoal 18:39:15 flapgoal? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:39:41 `? magpole 18:39:42 magpole? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:39:52 `? backpole 18:39:53 backpole? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:39:55 `? blackpole 18:39:56 blackpole? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:39:59 `? blackpoe 18:40:00 blackpoe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:40:37 * oerjan notes in the logs fungot using non-parilimentary language 18:40:37 oerjan: can't wait for may 24!! this was true: it wasn't radio controlled, there are very big audience for game turned movies. 18:40:56 yeah, somebody switched it to youtube style 18:41:04 oh right 18:42:57 `? blackhoe 18:42:59 blackhoe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:43:00 `? backhoe 18:43:01 backhoe? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:43:01 `? backhose 18:43:03 backhose? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:43:11 `? backwater 18:43:13 backwater? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:43:13 `? groundwater 18:43:14 groundwater? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:43:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: The standard does *not* involve adding every word b_jonas suggests, though). 18:46:26 `? black hole 18:46:27 black hole? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:01:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:03:49 b_jonas: did you type out all those rv messages by hand? 19:03:56 ais523: yes 19:04:05 well, I copy-pasted 19:04:10 from the revision history page 19:04:18 but there's only like seven of htem 19:04:31 and most of them were on highly visible pages 19:04:33 there aren't many of those 19:04:34 thanks for the vandalism cleanup, anynway 19:04:58 you can spot typing by hand from the inconsistent whitespace 19:08:54 I was checking to see if it was feasible to give more people access to the rollback button, but probably not; it's something of a blunt instrument and can cause problems if new users use it without knowing what it does 19:09:13 (given that throwing a rollback at someone is effectively a method of accusing them of vandalism) 19:09:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 19:09:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:09:58 and esolangs.org doesn't have settings allowing rollback to be enabled for individual people (without making them admins) 19:10:16 the undo button will produce an automated message saying where the rewind is going to, that's available to everyone 19:10:23 I don't need a rollback button. I can save an old revision, or, if there's another revision on top, use diff3 to unmerge the edits I want to undo 19:10:28 but it's not as convenient for vandalism cleanup 19:10:58 right; admins have a rollback button basically everywhere, whenever we look at an edit there's a rollback button besides it, which reverts all the changes made in a row by the user in question to the individual page 19:11:05 and there's no confirmation or anything, it just happens when we click it 19:11:15 it's basically for situations where we need to do reverts really quickly 19:11:36 yeah, that's not very typical on esolangs.org 19:12:21 it's useful when spambots turn up 19:12:29 although the current anti-spam measures seem to be holding 19:12:40 if you've ever needed to undo a thousand spam edits… 19:13:34 although nowadays we have tools such as "revert every edit this user has ever performed, and delete every page that they created" (that one /does/ have a confirm :-D) 19:13:35 I don't want that power 19:13:42 I shouldn't be trusted with it 19:13:52 you already have enoguh admins 19:13:52 fair enough 19:16:01 on a different subject, "sift in flour" is correct but confusing, there's no separable verb "sift in", rather the "sift" (i.e. "separate using a sieve") and "in" (i.e. "place into") are being combined via eliding the words between, the meaning is like "sift the flour, placing the sifted flour into it" (where the thing you're placing the flour into has been elided too) 19:16:20 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 19:28:57 it's not the phrasing I find strange, I just thought the whole notion of sifting flour was mostly obsolete for home use, like that people did that only back when they couldn't just buy processed food wrapped in plastic packaging from shops, and had to mix all dough by hand-stirring 19:29:33 If I want to mix margarine and suger and flour, I don't sift it 19:29:49 I guess it's meant for those in more humid climates where moisture can clump flour together. 19:29:57 or just improperly stored flour in general. 19:30:01 oh 19:30:03 that might make sense 19:30:51 guess that happened back when flour didn't come in one kilogram (or sometimes somewhat bigger) packages wrapped in paper, and once you open one, you put it in a plastic vessel that closes almost airtightly 19:31:11 you also have to consider the case of the "flour drawer". 19:31:33 people just took a ceramic bowl and asked the shopkeeper in a non-self-serving shop to measure them some flour on a huge weight scale 19:31:43 imode: yeah 19:32:07 those things still existed in my early childhood 19:32:21 they still exist at my relatives' lmao. 19:32:45 oh, and the grid of the sieve was made of non-synthetic strands 19:33:14 yet people still made all sorts of food, even ones that involved methods that were really hard without modern conveniences 19:33:32 I still occasionally read that sort of stuff from old cookbooks, and see remnants of such instruments 19:33:57 there's a particular channel, I believe it's called the Townsends, where they look at old cookery dating waaaaaaaaaaay back. 19:34:08 like to the point where whisks were just a bundle of twigs tied together to agitate things. 19:34:16 (this is on YouTube.) 19:35:04 "agitate" 19:35:35 agitate, incorporate, etc. 19:42:11 although of course today people also cook food in ways that require a ton of effort even with modern conveniences 20:11:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 20:15:26 hello 20:15:30 I'm curious about eForth 20:15:32 it seems neat 20:15:39 I don't know much about eForth 20:15:45 but I'm also curious about Forths in general 20:15:47 https://forthworks.com/forth/papers/compare.pdf 20:15:53 it requires the fewest primitives 20:16:05 [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58898&oldid=58879 * Superstrijder15 * (+150) /* Missing syntax info */ 20:16:25 https://github.com/tehologist/forthkit/blob/master/forth.c i found an implementation here 20:16:57 be careful with expressions like "the fewest" here 20:18:03 hmm, I don't think Underload translates directly to Forth, does it? 20:18:06 the missing primitive is ^ 20:18:29 but I'd expect a minimized Forth to be somewhere around four primitives, maybe three or five 20:18:29 hehe 20:22:19 http://pygmy.utoh.org/3ins4th.html 20:27:31 ais523: almost certainly not. underload needs closures or dynamic memory allocation 20:27:52 b_jonas: not if you omit * and a 20:27:58 ais523: you'd better try to translate something like br... something using a half-infinite tape 20:28:10 I'm thinking of minimized Underload here 20:28:12 of finitely many symbols 20:28:27 or perhaps two stacks, since forth has a separate call stack and data stack 20:28:36 ais523: hmm 20:29:03 perhaps, but even then you have to deal with () 20:29:16 Forth already has dup, swap, drop; and you can emulate Underload's (…) via defining a word that pushes a specified sequence onto the stack, then using that word to represent the entire (…) construct 20:29:28 kind-of like Splinter but with a stack 20:29:42 hmm... 20:29:59 but does forth let you push a pointer to a function to the data stack? or do you emulate that by a jump table? 20:30:02 um 20:30:06 I mean by an elseif chain 20:30:17 I guess forth probably does allow directly manipulating forth function pointesr 20:30:22 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:30:25 it's low leve 20:30:38 this is why I said ^ is missing 20:31:09 there's an IOCCC entry with a small forth interpreter by the way 20:31:18 I don't know Forth well enough to know whether there's, e.g., some trick you could do using immediate mode 20:31:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:31:56 unrelated, have you ever found a heuristic supporting that M:tG without Rotlung Reanimator is still TC? it probably is, but do we have a concrete suspicion on why? 20:32:11 I guess I must have asked that several times already 20:34:12 ais523: anyway, you could just emulate two stacks and a finite control state by making some global variables, storing one stack on the call stack and one on the data stack, and temporarily putting the finite machine state to a global variable when you return to pop an entry from the call stack so that it knows where to continue from 20:34:27 lets you translate any two-stack machine or one-tape TM 20:34:35 but sure, there may be a shortcut if you know forth well 20:34:50 and of course if you do that in practice, you may run out of space on one of the two stacks 20:35:12 b_jonas: the The Waterfall Model construction uses Hungry Lynx for the /logic/, so Rotlung Reanimator is probably replaceable with something 20:35:33 `card-by-name Hungry Lynx 20:35:33 Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R 20:35:40 that's the card from the quote 20:35:44 I was so surprised and excited when I saw Hungry Lynx was printed, it's as though someone inside Wizards had heard of the Turing machine project and decided to create the perfect card for it 20:35:50 hmm 20:36:28 yeah. it's the third ability that really helps, the first one has been printed a few times already. 20:36:45 if someone had asked me for the precise wording of a trigger that would fill in all the missing gaps, I would have said "Whenever a «creature type» you control «dies/enters the battlefield», put a +1/+1 counter on each «other creature type» you control" 20:36:54 ok, thanks, that does answer my question 20:37:05 so I was a little surprised to see it actually printed on a card 20:37:42 `card-search coward 20:37:43 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card-search: not found 20:37:49 whatever is the command for that 20:37:52 `card-by-name Boldwyr Intimidator 20:37:53 Boldwyr Intimidator \ 5RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ Cowards can't block Warriors. \ {R}: Target creature becomes a Coward until end of turn. \ {2}{R}: Target creature becomes a Warrior until end of turn. \ FUT-U, MOR-U, CNS-U, DDS-U 20:38:09 ``` grep -Eli mtg/a bin 20:38:09 grep: bin: Is a directory 20:38:11 ``` grep -Eli mtg/a bin/* 20:38:12 grep: bin/walcama: No such file or directory \ bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card \ bin/scheme 20:38:19 `random-card coward 20:38:19 Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R 20:38:25 nope 20:38:26 `random-card coward 20:38:27 Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R 20:38:29 hmm 20:39:13 yeah, Boldwyr Imitator is the only one that mentions cowards, it seems 20:42:11 I thought there were two cards, but in retrospect, the "Warrior" bit gives it away that it's in Morningtide (joke's on me, it's from Future Sight) 20:42:32 it's in both apparently 20:42:39 also conspiracy and a duel deck 20:42:52 (conspiracy seems like a bit of a weird fit…) 20:44:11 `card-by-name Assemble the Rank and Vile 20:44:12 Assemble the Rank and Vile \ Conspiracy \ Hidden agenda (Start the game with this conspiracy face down in the command zone and secretly choose a card name. You may turn this conspiracy face up any time and reveal that name.) \ Creatures you control with the chosen name have "When this creature dies, you may pay {B}. If you do, create a tapped 2/2 black Zombie creature token." \ CN2-C 20:44:32 it's not the only card in conspiracy that does wierd programmable triggers :-) 20:45:01 there's a whole theme of "choose a card name" and a trigger on that card name 20:45:23 "you may pay" is the sort of condition we've been trying to avoid in the TC construction for M:tG 20:45:24 easier than that Mirrodin block triggered staff 20:45:27 yeah 20:45:30 because what if the player doesn't? 20:45:31 they do that these days 20:46:06 and apparently we can't really use 20:46:12 `card-by-name Spellweaver Helix 20:46:12 Spellweaver Helix \ 3 \ Artifact \ Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix enters the battlefield, you may exile two target sorcery cards from a single graveyard. \ Whenever a player casts a card, if it has the same name as one of the cards exiled with Spellweaver Helix, you may copy the other. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost. \ MRD-R 20:46:19 either, because it triggers on a spell being cast 20:46:29 which makes sense since they don't want even more easy infinite loops 20:46:48 even back when they made the infamous Mirrodin, they already knew that 20:47:01 so stuff like Kiki-Jiki loops rarely slipped through 20:47:32 still, if an old card fits the theme, they may be more forgiving about that sort of stuff 20:48:47 out of the accidental gamebreaking infinite loops, have /all/ of them been copy effects where the copy refreshes the ability of the original card to use the copy effect? 20:49:05 no 20:49:08 there's been flicker effects 20:49:13 kiki-jiki/splinter twin + pestermite/deceiver exarch is of that form, so is saheeli rai + felidar guardian 20:49:16 where the flicker refreshes the ability 20:49:23 yes, but the ability is a copy ability 20:49:50 um 20:49:54 isn't there somethign with just flicker? 20:50:10 flicker plus something that etb with counters and generates, I dunno, mana from it? 20:50:23 in the flicker-based broken infinite loops I know, the flicker regenerates a copy effect that regenerates the flicker 20:50:32 there are infinite loops without a copy in but they aren't broken 20:50:49 things like kitchen finks + viscera seer + melira 20:51:06 hmm 20:51:08 but that was actually pretty fair, and although it was played in a top Modern deck it isn't the reason the deck was good 20:52:05 I guess one reason it's copy-based loops that tend to break things is that they normally only need two cards in the combo rather than three! 20:54:04 there was also Half-Squirrel, Half-Pony but that wasn't in a tournament-legal set and got errata'd before it could break things (also it needed a third card to infinitely flicker) 20:54:15 `card-by-name Half-Squirrel, Half- 20:54:15 Half-Squirrel, Half- \ Creature -- Squirrel \ -1/-0 \ Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, \ Augment {G} ({G}, Reveal this card from your hand: Combine it with target host. Augment only as a sorcery.) \ UST-U 20:54:21 `card-by-name Ordinary Pony 20:54:22 Ordinary Pony \ 2W \ Host Creature -- Horse \ 2/3 \ When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Horse creature you control that wasn't put onto the battlefield with this ability this turn, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control. \ UST-C 20:55:22 yeah 20:58:34 and some infinite loops are simply made impractical by the high mana cost of a piece, like that of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed plus Bloodied Ghost plus a free sac outlet 21:14:12 well, the "more efficient win condition" I found for Omni-Tell while working on the TC proof contains a 27-mana combo 21:14:20 but it has unlimited resources at that point, so the cost doesn't really matter 21:14:33 yeah 21:14:48 for just starting an infinite loop, you don't that much mana 21:59:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:00:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:05:30 `dateu 22:05:31 2018-12-29 22:05:31.418126946 +0000 UTC December 29 Saturday 2018-W52-6 22:22:16 -!- uplime has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 22:32:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:32:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:43:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 22:45:42 does someone know what links are there between algebraic effects and extensible effects? (@tell me if you may, gtg) 22:45:46 supermegacomics.com is down?! 22:46:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 22:47:21 arseniiv: Is extensible effects the one based on free monads? 22:48:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:50:46 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:51:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:51:38 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:55:13 -!- tromp has joined. 23:06:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 23:09:44 -!- nchambers has joined. 23:20:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:50:39 is there a process for converting a cellular automata with >2 states to something with only 2 states? 23:53:28 imode: what are the other constraints, or how do you define cellular automatons 23:55:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:55:20 assume a 2D grid, assume each cell in the grid can be in some state, assume cells can transition from one state to another, assume cells transition based on the states of their neighbors in some defined neighborhood (von neumann or moore). 23:55:49 convert a CA with cell states >2 into something with cell states = 2. 2018-12-30: 00:05:57 in like each generation of the CA? 00:06:19 encode cells into fixed length blocks such that beginning and end can be uniquely identified? (say, start with 11, then use 01 and 10 for a binary encoding, end with 00. It should be possible to do much better than that.) 00:06:55 Then pick the neighbourhood such that from any bit you can see the full original neighbourhood of the cell. Then translate your rules. 00:08:08 that's what I figured. your rules just balloon to include identifying the larger assemblies of cells. 00:08:26 doing that in 2D, though. 00:09:44 So you wrote. But the idea remains the same. 00:10:03 your spans turn into "glyphs". 00:10:40 heh you can even do funny things where the grids aren't parallel 00:10:55 oh? 00:11:56 sure, choose any two non-parallel integer vectors as periods, then choose any cells from each class to form an, um, how do chemist call it, "fundamental region" 00:12:19 you lost me. 00:13:24 as long as the area isn't too small, obviously 00:15:01 imode: imagine this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid.png 00:15:53 oops, I messed up a line, fixed now. 00:16:40 oh! yeah over arbitrary tilings. 00:16:43 or lattices, rather. 00:17:08 huh I messed up two lines. wow 00:17:48 also I should've just used the 5 pixel cross which leads to a knight move based tiling 00:21:33 int-e: oh, can you make a good illustration of the tilings by the two disconnected polyminos, each tiling the plane separately, made by removing an inner square from the 1x5 rectangle? 00:21:45 those aren't translation tilings, so they're not really appropriate here 00:21:48 I'm just wondering 00:25:24 `` ls -l bin/walcama 00:25:25 lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 10 Jul 8 2017 bin/walcama -> wälcåmä 00:25:44 `` ls -l bin/wälcåmä 00:25:45 ls: cannot access 'bin/wälcåmä': No such file or directory 00:25:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:51 `rm bin/walcama 00:25:52 No output. 00:26:09 `doag bin/wälcåmä 00:26:11 11437:2018-03-03 rm bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 \ 5972:2015-09-10 ` echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nexec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv\\n\' > bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 \ 5969:2015-09-10 ` >bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nexec welcome "$@" | sed "s/E/\xc3\x84/g;s/O/\xc3\x85/g;s/e/\xc3\xa4/g;s/o/\xc3\xa5/g"\\n\' \ 5968:2015-09-10 ` >bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nwelcome | s 00:26:20 ha 00:28:12 yeah, that one was stupid. deserved the rm. 00:28:33 `` ls bin | shuf | head -n1 00:28:34 binary 00:28:40 `cat bin/binary 00:28:41 Binary file bin/binary matches 00:28:46 `emoclew 00:28:47 ​(.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) . :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW 00:28:54 `doag bin/binary 00:28:56 9273:2016-10-13 ` mkx \'bin/Binary//echo "$@"\'; mkx \'bin/binary//Binary file bin/binary matches\' 00:28:59 what! 00:29:17 `Binary abc 00:29:17 abc 00:29:25 what even is this 00:29:32 `` rm bin/{b,B}inary 00:29:34 No output. 00:29:43 I'm sure it made sense at the time. 00:30:14 `cat bin/randbin 00:30:15 ​#!/bin/dash \ f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; grep '' "$f"; else echo "That's not binary."; fi | rnooodl 00:30:21 `randbin 00:30:22 thanks//#!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_."; 00:30:26 Well, that's convenient. 00:30:39 shachaf: a parody of a message grep sometimes gives if it believes (sometimes mistakenly) that you don't want to print a matching line from a non-text file 00:30:44 I know that. 00:30:49 But why is it in bin/? 00:31:19 `thanks randbin 00:31:20 Thanks, randbin. Thandbin. 00:31:30 `orenbow what's all this? 00:31:31 ​[1m[31mw[33mh[32ma[36mt[34m'[35ms[31m [33ma[32ml[36ml[34m [35mt[31mh[33mi[32ms[36m?[34m 00:31:36 `rainbow what's all this? 00:31:37 ​what's all this? 00:32:11 `randbin 00:32:11 airport-lookup//#! /usr/bin/env python \ \ import csv \ import sys \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 3: sys.stderr.write('usage: airport-lookup any|name|iata|icao key\n'); sys.exit(1) \ kind, q = sys.argv[1], ' '.join(sys.argv[2:]) \ \ fieldnames = dict(name=1, iata=4, icao=5) \ if kind == 'any': fields = [1, 4, 5] \ elif kind in fieldnames: fields = [fieldnames[kind]] \ else: sys.stderr.write('unknown search type: %s\n' % kind); sys.exit(1) \ \ def f(s): return 00:32:14 `randbin 00:32:15 ​`^//[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport 00:32:17 `randbin 00:32:18 culprits//hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n' 00:32:24 Wow, these are all useful. 00:32:25 `randbin 00:32:26 autowelcome//[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > share/autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > share/autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat share/autowelcome_status)." 00:32:50 `dobg autowelcome 00:32:52 6335:2015-11-28 ` sed -i \'s!autow!share/autow!g\' bin/autowelcome \ 6334:2015-11-28 revert \ 6333:2015-11-28 ` mv autowelcome_status share; sed -i \'s!autow!share/autow!\' bin/autowelcome \ 6164:2015-11-01 echo \'[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."\' > bin/autowelcome \ 6103:2015-10-19 `randbin 00:33:15 rainbow//print_args_or_input "$@" | pikhqbow 00:33:28 `randbin 00:33:28 echo-p//echo "$1"; [[ "$1" == */* ]] && mkdir -p "${1%/*}" 2>/dev/null 00:33:34 what? 00:33:53 I mean the rainbow 00:34:01 `dobg pikhqbow 00:34:06 8746:2016-07-05 ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8744:2016-07-05 ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8742:2016-07-05 ` gcc src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow 00:40:07 `randbin 00:40:09 list//date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs 00:40:30 `` culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs 00:40:32 alercäh rdocöc quintopïa Zarutiän jeffl3̈5 BlueProtomän fizzïe hppavilion[1̈] Phantom_Hoovër int-̈e b_jonäs boil̈y a`a`a`a`jo7äs a`a`a`a`jo8äs a`a`a`a`jo3äs a`a`a`a`jo6äs a`a`a`a`jo5äs a`a`a`a`jo4äs a`a`a`a`jo2äs a`a`a`a`jo1äs a`a`a`a`jonas̈0 a`a`a`̈a lambdaböt chicken_jonäs mynam̈e 00:43:32 Huh, I didn't realize that's how list was implemented. 00:44:56 fizzie: yeah, it's tricky. you can't just revert its effect. 00:46:57 although of course one could edit bin/list to modify how it works and exclude a certain nick 00:49:37 It's also slightly unfair in that if someone does a canary-preserving mass-rm and you revert *that*, you end up on the conscript list. 00:50:22 fizzie: It's a shavention! 00:50:29 Since we don't have access to logs anymore. 00:50:43 fizzie: We can filter out mass-rms with scowrevs 00:50:46 `cat bin/culprits 00:50:47 hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n' 00:50:49 `cat bin/hoag 00:50:50 hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@" 00:50:53 `cat bin/hlnp 00:50:54 scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[ Oh, clever. 00:51:01 `cat share/scowrevs 00:51:02 121:122 \ 194:196 \ 770:771 \ 1000:1001 \ 1493:1497 \ 2112:2114 \ 3341:3343 \ 4530:4531 \ 5136:5137 \ 5642:5643 \ 5894:5897 \ 8669:8678 \ 9070:9071 \ 9074:9075 00:51:02 fizzie: I think you just don't end up on the list anymore no matter what edits you do, unless list is changed, because it lists names from oldest to newest edits, uniq, and I filled up the irc line 00:51:04 man, what a maze 00:51:13 No, it's in reverse order. 00:51:19 Or is it? 00:51:24 why don't anyone use hg -T ? 00:51:33 I don't get it 00:51:37 Yes, it's reverse order. 00:51:53 ah 00:51:59 Because of your vandalism. 00:52:01 so you can get on the list, but can scroll yourself off afterwards? 00:52:03 -!- nodist has joined. 00:52:04 oh! 00:52:09 it got changed to reverse order afterwards? 00:52:13 I believe so. 00:52:41 `cat bin/whoq 00:52:42 if [[ "$1" =~ ^[0-9]+$ ]]; then \ rev="$(hg blame quotes | sed "$1{s/^ *//;s/:.*//;q};d")" \ if [[ -n "$rev" ]]; then \ hg log -r "$rev" -T "{desc}" \ else \ echo "$1: no such quote" \ fi \ else \ echo "usage: \`whoq N" \ fi 00:52:54 I vandalized with a` names because I assumed it was sorted by name, in locale order in that default locale HackEso used to have 00:53:03 it turns out it's not sorted by name 00:53:12 `quote 00:53:13 1063) [on the name "Watson"] And not the IBM "AI"? scare quotes eh I don't think it counts as a proper AI until it kills people. 00:53:18 `whoq 1063 00:53:21 revert 00:56:27 `gak 00:56:28 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gak: not found 00:56:28 `? gak 00:56:29 gak? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:56:46 Sounds like whoq isn't scowrevs-enabled maybe. 00:56:57 (Because that revert is 4531.) 00:58:14 `dobg whoq 00:58:15 11594:2018-08-08 fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq \ 11593:2018-08-08 fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq \ 11592:2018-08-08 ` chmod a+x bin/whoq \ 11591:2018-08-08 fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq 00:58:23 b_jonas: something like this? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid2.png 00:58:44 If I made it, it definitely won't, because I'm really "out" when it comes to all these shaventions. 00:58:46 int-e: hehe, little bridges 00:58:55 Hey, they aren't all shaventions. 00:59:10 Some of them are oerventions otherventions 00:59:17 Well, #esoventions in general. 00:59:28 If they're invented by multiple people, they're called interventions. 00:59:54 interesting drawing, though it may look better if colored 00:59:59 b_jonas: it's not quite what I want; ideally the two ends of the bridge should meld into the foundations without border 01:00:12 I really should finish making the logs accessible again, I was kinda-sorta working on that at one point but got distracted overengineering it. 01:00:24 int-e: perhaps, but if you do that, it would look like the thing under it is cut 01:00:24 how about making the internet accessible twh 01:00:25 b_jonas: But I don't know how to do that in xfig. :) 01:00:42 `? shaventions 01:00:43 this way it looks better, because the bridge looks like it's above the tile that's under it 01:00:43 Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet. 01:01:16 I don't recall now if this is the easier or the harder one of the two tilings 01:01:30 Making some whitelisted parts of the internet accessible would've been part of the overengineered solution, since it was going to be based on talking to an API on the logs viewer thing. 01:02:35 (Anyway, it'll be later, got at least a few other things on the stack that need to be popped off before getting back that deep.) 01:03:21 fizzie: you think that's overengineered? at one point I had a function in evalj that would send a command to buubot in private, block until it gets the reply, and returned the reply. it was a true function you can call from any J expression at any depth. 01:03:43 jsut for fun, not for any practical thing 01:06:26 Do you know the 11-queens problem? 01:06:31 oh, and buubot has or had a builtin that took a http url as argument, sent a HEAD request to it, and returned the status line 01:07:01 so you can bind it ot any custom server of yours that gives answers in the status line 01:07:13 shachaf: I don't know it 01:08:04 Oh, I was confused about what the problem was. 01:09:20 b_jonas: ah, figured out a way: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid3.png 01:10:30 f 01:10:41 int-e: oh nice, colors 01:10:56 [[TOWCBL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58899&oldid=58875 * ShareMan * (+1132) Added more information for some commands. 01:11:20 and nice bridges 01:11:59 and since the bridges all cross over tiles of a different color, it's easy to see them 01:19:02 . o O ( i have 11 problems but a queen ain't one ) 01:19:44 `randbin 01:19:45 wdit//edit "wisdom/$1" 01:19:56 `edit bin/wdit 01:19:57 https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/bin/wdit 01:20:21 whoa, that still exists 01:21:10 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:22:25 `` touch tmp/$'a\nb' 01:22:25 No output. 01:22:27 `edit tmp/$'a\nb' 01:22:27 https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/%24%27a%5Cnb%27 01:22:29 that's not right 01:22:41 And https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/a%0ab is a 404 01:22:52 how come edit doesn't support files with newlines in the name tdnh 01:23:46 That might be a nginx configuration thing. 01:24:07 `? fizzievention 01:24:09 fizzievention? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:24:26 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:26:04 (Or maybe a Flask limitation, that's what the edit thing is based on.) 01:28:50 b_jonas: I guess this is the other one: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid4.png 01:29:18 hmm. no, I messed that up. 01:30:04 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:30:09 there, fixed. 01:32:06 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:38:23 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:40:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:01:41 int-e: that's using the same disconnected polymino, not the other one 02:03:41 b_jonas: you mean XXX X? that can be assembled into an 8x1 strip, XXXZXZZZ 02:05:09 I was looking for different tilings of the plane using XX XX. 02:05:53 int-e: ah 02:06:39 (but now I wonder how many of those there are, since I misunderstood what you wrote earlier) 02:07:13 int-e: for different tilings, try taking http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid3.png, find the yellow polyminos that have no bridge over them, take them out, and put cyan polyminos in the gaps 02:07:27 int-e: oh hmm 02:07:36 int-e: I think the other hard case was XXX X then 02:07:43 definitely my fault 02:07:50 I did ask for XXX X 02:08:24 But anyway, the way I'm drawing this now, each tile now consists of three rectangles (as in the white version), with the two short angles covered by a small circle without border. 02:09:17 ... arg, I think this is a sign to go to sleep: s/angles/edges/ 02:10:05 and I've played with the depth of everything so the bridges are always drawn over the base rectangles. 02:10:57 see http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bridges.fig if you have xfig. 02:12:26 And yeah, tiling the plane XXX X is not immediately obvious. 02:34:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:36:56 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:42:43 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 02:46:42 b_jonas: actually what about this way without bridges: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid5.png 03:03:53 -!- tromp has joined. 03:08:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:27:37 int-e: interesting. that seems different from the tiling I made. I chould try to reconstruct mine later. feel free to remind me of that. 03:29:11 final picture for tonight: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png 03:30:40 ah, now that right one looks more familiar to me 03:31:22 because that one is symmetric to translating 8 right and to translating 8 down 03:31:56 and I think that was a symmetry I used for the other disconnected polymino tiling too 03:32:07 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:34:05 b_jonas: I like how the two left ones follow such a similar pattern for different tetrominos :) 03:36:10 wait, why have I made the third one so complicated... 03:39:38 night 03:39:40 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:40:40 -!- heroux has joined. 03:41:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:44:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:46:56 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:49:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:51:25 is wang tiling (or any kind of tiling) the only "geometric" model of computation around? 03:57:55 -!- tromp has joined. 04:02:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:03:50 -!- MDead has joined. 04:04:53 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:04:55 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 04:05:53 answered my own question: signal machines. 04:08:45 -!- MDead has joined. 04:09:17 -!- Storkman has left. 04:09:37 I played a GURPS game today. It is good my character carries a scribing kit everywhere, so, can write "X" on a big snail's shell. 04:10:27 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:10:32 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 05:04:21 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 05:07:58 * imode wonders if graph rewriting has a combinatory equivalent.. 05:14:06 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:44:56 -!- tromp has joined. 05:49:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:57:58 [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58900&oldid=58570 * Salpynx * (+365) reorder and update my languages 06:19:14 [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58901&oldid=58900 * Salpynx * (+2428) /* Non-Latin Historical Writing system esolangs */ 06:21:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:24:33 I don't know. 06:30:34 [[Sumerian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58902 * Salpynx * (+385) add esolang found on TIO / github 06:39:04 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:29 [[Nikud]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58903 * Salpynx * (+1289) add another esolang found on github 06:40:11 [[Nikud]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58904&oldid=58903 * Salpynx * (+1) /* External resources */ 06:41:31 [[Nikud]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58905&oldid=58904 * Salpynx * (+80) /* External resources */ 06:43:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:43:08 [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58906&oldid=58901 * Salpynx * (-117) /* Interested in */ 06:44:00 [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58907&oldid=58906 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Non-Latin historical writing system esolangs */ 06:53:07 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:03:18 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:05:16 -!- moei has joined. 07:11:33 my world has now been rocked by signal machines. I did not know geometric computing was so deep. 07:33:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:39:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:22:19 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58908 * Salpynx * (+3986) Created page with "'''''' (Rna) is a Runic [[fungeoid]] currently being developed by [[User:Salpynx]] after noticing that there were no existing esolangs written in runic (oth..." 08:27:23 -!- tromp has joined. 08:31:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:34:59 -!- tromp has joined. 08:48:31 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:08:44 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 09:11:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:31:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:34:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:48:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:51:48 -!- FreeFull has quit. 10:24:16 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 10:27:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:31:24 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:34:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:38:17 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:52:13 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58909&oldid=58908 * Salpynx * (+3147) /* Commands */ 11:09:16 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58910&oldid=58909 * Salpynx * (+187) /* Examples */ Old-Norse Hello World (2D, next column wrapping) 11:18:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:31:36 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58911&oldid=58910 * Salpynx * (+325) /* Examples */ Historical code runes 11:54:54 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58912&oldid=58911 * Salpynx * (+1343) Note re. multi-threadedness and IP variables 11:55:28 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:55:54 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58913&oldid=58912 * Salpynx * (-1) /* Multi-threaded */ 12:14:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:15:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 12:25:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:25:45 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:00:52 -!- uplime has joined. 13:14:18 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:19:21 -!- uplime has joined. 13:23:48 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:06:37 -!- Essadon has joined. 14:08:07 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:09:04 -!- uplime has joined. 14:19:11 -!- uplime has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 14:19:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:31:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:31:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:41:09 -!- b_jonas has joined. 14:43:34 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181229.html 14:43:36 bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181229.html: b_jonas 14:50:44 I just realized that there's a way how the home computer industry has done a half-turn in 30 years. In the 1980s, a lot of home computers were advertised as business computers, even if users actually played games on them. So these computers came with crippled graphics and sound capabilities, and game programmers had to work those around in creative ways. 14:52:43 Whereas these days, a lot of computer hardware is advertised with a "gaming" label, despite that it's utterly not designed for gaming. You see motherboards with error-correcting RAM and hardware RAID but an inferior graphics card compared to today's standards, and keyboards with nice echoey springs for typing, all sold as "gaming" stuff. 14:53:56 And of course there are general purpose computers disguised as "gaming computers", often with some sort of DRM lockdown to make it more difficult to port programs to them, despite that they have more than enough hardware for them. 15:10:45 int-e: I think I figured out the tiling I used for the OOO__O disconnected polyminio. let me draw a figure. 15:14:35 -!- user24 has joined. 15:15:59 b_jonas: I've updated http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png to use a more symmetric way of obtaining the last tiling 15:18:35 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:23:17 int-e: I mean tiling with the the other polymino 15:24:08 I have seen grid6.png, and that one is probably either the tiling I used for the OO_OO polymino, or close 15:24:09 b_jonas: I know. 15:24:33 b_jonas: what I'm saying is that the grid6 that you've seen may not be the one that's there. 15:24:53 nice tilings, was the goal to make any one tiling or something more constrained? 15:26:14 arseniiv: it's tilings using one of two kinds of disconnected tetronimos 15:26:57 arseniiv: the first one uses XXX X (and b_jonas has a different tiling for that one), the other two use XX XX, where each X is a square and the space is a gap. 15:27:18 arseniiv: part of it is to draw nice images for the tilings 15:28:23 ah, so there no additional constraints? 15:29:01 I didn't state any, besides that it has to use either of these particular disconnected polyminos, but I'm really trying to draw a particular tiling that I like right now 15:40:49 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:44:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:44:10 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:48:04 int-e: tiling with OOO__O: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cmYBY.png 15:48:57 this one is periodic to translations by (0,8) squares and by (2,2) squares 15:49:40 no bridges drawn, but squares of the same color that are close to each other are part of the same polymino 15:50:01 so I used 32 different colors 15:50:33 obviously it's not easy to choose 32 distinguishable colors 15:50:43 so it doesn't look perfect 16:03:15 b_jonas: I've included it in http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png 16:07:48 hmm but again, I can make this more symmetric 16:16:40 int-e: _more_ symmetric than it is? 16:17:00 b_jonas: see now 16:17:16 I mean using a more symmetric meta-tile. 16:18:01 ok 16:18:22 so you want to choose a symmetric fundamental region, or whatever chemists call that 16:18:54 hmm, let me try to search that article on Ruxor's blog that may clear up this terminology a bit 16:24:08 anyway that was a fun way to waste time 16:31:14 -!- sprocklem has joined. 16:45:07 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:46:10 now if I could just stop tweaking that picture that would be great ;) (another update that makes it more obvious that the two outer tilings follow a similar pattern) 16:47:14 -!- sprocklem has joined. 16:55:52 -!- nchambers has joined. 16:57:47 int-e: sorry for the nerd snipe in that case :-) 17:06:12 Eh it's fine. 17:06:22 It's what this channel is for. 17:08:57 b_jonas: Besides I'm quite happy with the result. 17:09:46 (even without bridges... adding bridges is left as an exercise to an interested party) 17:12:05 -!- Essadon has joined. 17:12:45 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:17:54 b_jonas: Regarding colors, I think it's a good idea to choose similar colors for pieces related by the underlying symmetries (translations by (0,8) and (2,2) in your case). Also, two colors are enough in principle to fully disambiguate the pieces. (one easy way is to alternate the colors for the pieces in each row and column). 17:22:27 ... where I mentally assign horizontal pieces to rows and vertical pieces to columns. The alternation makes sure that if we see X XXX X, we will know which single X belongs to the XXX. 17:23:54 (It's similar for the other tetromino we considered: exactly two of the dominos in XX XX XX will end up with the same color) 17:26:03 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:32:45 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:41:25 -!- nchambers has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:54:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:58:24 -!- nchambers has joined. 19:32:47 [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58914 * Zzo38 * (+183) Created page with "You can use runic encoding instead of Unicode, and then you can use pentimal numbering system properly. --~~~~" 19:33:42 heh. wiki announcer still has difficulties with some non-ASCII characters in titles 19:36:23 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 19:37:47 [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58915&oldid=58914 * Zzo38 * (+148) 19:46:03 That's probably my fault. 19:48:25 Yes, it only passes through byte values 3 (for the color codes) and 32..126. 19:58:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:04:06 oh well, the link works 20:04:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:09:50 Filed as https://github.com/fis/esolangs/issues/1 20:10:04 (Since GitHub provides the issue tracker by default, might as well use it.) 20:26:21 -!- uplime has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:37:54 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:39:51 -!- nchambers has joined. 20:41:45 -!- imode has joined. 20:46:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:01:45 fizzie: then you're just postponing your troubles by a few months, to when you find that it's very difficult to export the data from github's issue tracker, and either you can't use the issue tracker properly, or you lost access to it completely. good luck. 21:01:59 until that time, enjoy your freebie. 21:38:57 I don't think that's so serious for this specific use case. 21:40:38 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 21:48:44 If no part of a string matches /[^0-9/+*^|&%()-]|[^0-9()]{2}|\)[0-9(]|\([^0-9(-]/ can you execute arbitrary JavaScript codes from it? 21:52:18 I want to put that into a thing that generates examples from a regex 21:52:38 or its negation maybe 22:00:36 What thing is there that generates examples by a negation of a regex? 22:02:14 i couldn't find one on google 22:02:59 There is https://fomafst.github.io/ 22:03:08 I think? Maybe it doesn't generate, actually, I'm not sure. 22:07:34 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:09:00 -!- heroux has joined. 22:15:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:16:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:25:33 zzo38: hmm, is that some website that tries to act like a calculator? 22:26:12 zzo38: and is that perl syntax regex? I'm asking because the [...-] has a different meaning in some regexen 22:26:51 I don't know javascript enough to be able to answer that though 22:27:35 but I think there are people here who do know javascript 22:29:12 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/91605800/mum-fears-burglar-ate-her-placenta 22:33:45 shachaf: disturbing 22:49:03 -!- nchambers has joined. 23:47:33 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:50:34 How should coroutines/userspace threads be implemented if you want them to be very efficient and are willing to have compiler support? 23:54:21 shachaf: recompile everything with a new calling convention that has very few callee-saved regs, for one 23:55:00 One option would be to use two stacks, one for state that needs to be saved and one for general computation. 23:55:17 admittedly that's harder than just "compioler support" 23:55:36 shachaf: we already have a redzone for that 23:55:51 How do you mean? 23:56:58 for stack stuff that doesn't need to be saved by calls. I don't think it helps all that much though for coroutines though 23:57:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:58:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:58:48 The problem is that you might have a general-purpose computation that uses a bunch of stack space. 23:59:03 And every time you switch stacks the whole new stack is out of the cache. 2018-12-31: 00:01:07 yes, cache is one of the reasons why you want to make context switches rare in first place, not more frequent, even if they're within one user space. but that doesn't answer your question I think. 00:01:45 I don't see how any stack arrangement really fixes that. 00:02:20 Obviously you can make it worse by a really bad scheme, but still. 00:03:46 Well, imagine you had no compiler support. 00:04:11 The straightforward thing you'd do is define a struct for all the asynchronous state you need, including an "instruction pointer". 00:04:39 We already have some amount of compiler support. 00:05:33 And cpu arch support too, for that matter. It took me some time to figure that out. 00:05:38 ? 00:07:35 shachaf: you know when x86_64 added the AVX instructions, thus extending 128-bit XMM registers to 256-bit YMM registers, right? The existing XMM registers are aliased to the bottom halves of the YMM registers. 00:07:45 wait, which do you want... coroutines or userspace threads? 00:08:09 They seem like the same kind of thing? 00:08:12 what's the difference? 00:08:18 how exactly do you define them 00:08:39 also the real question is, what you want, since you asked the question in first place 00:08:59 I want a convenient and efficient way to write code that does asynchronous operations. 00:09:36 shachaf: well, that's somewhat of a different applications then. so coroutines or user-space threads or whatever, but applied to asynchronious IO in particular? 00:10:15 Coroutines are invoked explicitly (for example, when you hand control off to a generator), which is amenable to static analysis (though obviously only to the extend that function pointers are amenable to static analysis). 00:10:41 (Cooperative) userspace threads are coroutines that are invoked by some scheduler. 00:11:47 So anyway, when x86_64 did that, they made it so that all existing instructions that modified an XMM register never changed the upper halves of the YMM register. This has the disadvantage that whenever you have libraries compiled to SSE2 and libraries compiled to AVX in the same userspace, and you call between them, then either you have zero all the upper halves, or the cpu has to deal with stashing 00:11:54 away the upper halves when it does YMM registers, 00:12:38 So coroutines often are coordinated in a predictable way. Threads usually aren't coordinated; they are scheduled but do unrelated work. 00:12:42 Let's imagine I don't care about XMM 00:12:45 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 00:13:06 or otherwise most SSE2 instructions would suddenly get an extra input, because they have to merge the old value of the output YMM register into the YMM register. The cpu allows both of these: the code explicitly zeroing the YMM registers or the cpu stashing the top halves. 00:13:12 But nevertheless, this seems inefficient. 00:13:34 shachaf: you don't care about XMM? but you want efficient code with compiler support? do you want to use a new cpu architecture too? 00:13:40 Now sure, you can build a scheduler on top of a coroutine mechanism, but any static analysis for coroutines is bound to fail. 00:14:03 So for a while I wondered why x86_64 was designed to work that way, instead of all SSE2 instructions just zeroing the top halves of any YMM register that they store into. 00:14:06 int-e: OK, then I'll say that I care about cooperative userspace threads. 00:14:30 Then I'll say that you're in for a lot of trouble. :P 00:15:03 But it turns out that that would have been bad, because you couldn't do user-space coroutine switching correctly, which would be a worse cost than the one we have to pay now. 00:15:38 amd64 registers are so complicated 00:16:02 shachaf: yes they are. but if you are asking for efficient code with compiler support, you have to deal with that. 00:16:33 For example storing into the lower 32-bits zeroes the upper 32-bits, but storing into the lower 16-bits doesn't zero the upper 16-bits 00:16:58 shachaf: yes, and that is for exactly the same reason as with the XMM registers 00:17:01 well, sort of 00:17:02 not quite 00:17:30 Anyway, what about the specific case of userspace threads ignoring SIMD registers for the moment? 00:17:44 back then in the 386, the extra input dependency didn't matter, so that was a sane design choice 00:17:56 today it's much more strange, and has a much more obscure reason 00:18:06 There's an obvious thing you can do, which is just allocate a stack for each thread and switch out rsp and rip (and the callee-save registers) on context switch. 00:18:11 shachaf: again, then you're losing more than you gain with userspace threads 00:18:36 um yes, except you have to save much more than that, specifically all the callee-saved registers 00:19:11 The callee-saved registers are not much more than the callee-save registers. 00:20:02 um huh? 00:20:13 oh 00:20:26 I mean, you have to save more than just rsp and rip, because there are more callee-saved registers than that 00:20:33 Hence the word "and" 00:20:54 There are six others in System V amd64 ABI 00:21:10 Saving a few registers is not really the big bottleneck here. 00:21:58 the sad part is that you usually have to save both floating point control registers (the x87 one and the SSE2 one), AND the signal mask (not technically a register, but you do have to save it), despite that most of the time they aren't actually changed in the program 00:22:14 but it's hard to make sure that no library linked into your program ever changes them, so you have to save them 00:22:25 You can just make sure that no library every changes them. 00:22:55 Changing the signal mask is ridiculous, you have to do a system call per context switch. 00:23:52 shachaf: yes, that's sad, but you have to do it. the good news is that system calls like that are very fast. 00:24:03 sometimes they can even execute purely in userspace. 00:24:14 without switching to kernel mode that is. by magic. 00:24:45 I don't know if the signal mask thing can do that, but the point is, it doesn't have to do IO or anything, it just has to change some flags and check some other flags for pending signals. 00:24:49 No, you don't have to do it, because you're writing a program and you know what your program is doing. 00:25:07 Ah words, my eternal nemeses. I could've saved a lot of typing by just writing that coroutines are much more tightly coupled than threads (userspace or otherwise). 00:25:35 shachaf: yes, see above what I said about how recompiling all the libraries you link in, including all the nasty parts of glibc, does help, but in practice it's harder than what you might expect by "compiler support" 00:26:23 and the signal mask is one you can get away the easiest, because the program has more control over it, but there's no way you can optimize away the two floating point control registers 00:26:35 Let me check the source code to see what else I forget that have to be saved 00:26:36 Maybe your program doesn't do floating point operations. 00:27:00 shachaf: maybe, but it's very unlikely that even all the libraries including libc never do any 00:27:09 it's pretty unlikely in fact 00:27:34 I don't think saving registers is the big bottleneck here anyway. 00:28:38 wait, there's some additional crazy stuff here I think 00:28:42 something that I forgot about 00:28:43 I think a much bigger problem with the system I described is that every time you do a stack witch, the entire stack is out of the cache. 00:29:28 shachaf: I don't see why it would be "the entire stack", and I don't see why it's the stack in particular that you care about 00:29:57 whenever you use more data than fits in your cache, most of the old data will be out of the cache 00:30:02 `grWp \bwitch 00:30:08 apt:APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". \ peace witch:Peace witches do alchemy: they turn mundane building material to gold. They're in the same universe where Bowser turned peaceful citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom to building material. 00:30:09 it doesn't matter much if it's stack or not 00:30:40 if you access very few data during when a coroutine executes, then the other data isn't out of the stack. if you use a lot, then it's out of the stack. 00:30:59 What do you mean? 00:31:03 sure, there are some fine details going on there because caches are complicated 00:31:12 but why is the stack in particular important? 00:31:35 Because you could do a stack switch and then call a function that uses a bunch of stack space but doesn't do any context switch. 00:31:46 And all that memory is not in the cache. 00:31:56 I have thought to instead design the instruction set without automatic cache control and instead you must specify your own controls 00:34:20 . o O ( there's an easy way out... just don't do a context switch. ) 00:34:24 zzo38: you know that already gets very hairy, but if you also do user-space coroutine switches, then it gets really horrible 00:34:30 int-e: yeah, that's what I said above. 00:34:55 Or do the transputer thing (3 registers, was it? sweet for context switching!) 00:35:26 int-e: OK, what's your alternative? 00:35:40 I'm not really tied to threads here, I'd like any sort of way to express these asynchronous things nicely. 00:37:49 I guess I'm not sure why you want to switch away out of the middle of a heavy computation in the first place; that sounds like a job for a proper OS thread to me. 00:38:24 A computation doesn't have to be very heavy to suffer from cache misses. 00:38:37 I'd like to measure this, admittedly. 00:38:51 I imagine you also have something event-driven where nothing ever takes long, which can all be handled by a single event-driven thread. 00:39:27 * int-e shrugs. 00:39:29 Sure, and then you'd make structs that correspond more or less to the contents of the stack for the threads, right? 00:39:49 YES! 00:39:54 If they carry state... yes. 00:40:01 sorry, that was unrelated to the couroutine thing 00:40:37 Sure, they carry state. They do a moderately complicated thing. 00:41:03 shachaf: and sometimes the compiler helps you with maintaining those structs implicitly 00:41:48 in the first stage by supporting closures; 00:42:41 and in the second stage by allowing the programmer to mark functions as "async", and those functions are compiled so that they or other async functions they call can have yield points where they save their state and IP into a struct and pick up from there when you continue them. 00:42:48 compilers can actually do both these days. 00:43:04 Sure, that's one of the schemes I'm describing. 00:43:24 the drawback is that you can't do a stackless yield through a function that isn't compiled async, even when it calls your function back, 00:43:41 but compiling every function that has callbacks async can cost a lot. 00:43:49 int-e: I wonder, because you have partially applied arguments, if it's possible to refactor that queue automata you had such that it doesn't do subterm copying. your state tables would balloon but I don't think it'd be _that_ much of an increase. 00:44:13 so user-space context switches are easier if you have unpredictable yields from deep inside functions, but generally you want to avoid that. 00:44:55 I think requiring the user to mark async functions is reasonable. 00:45:00 shachaf: yes, that's what you said, I just wanted to explicitly tell how it works 00:45:24 imode: I don't know what you mean by "partially applied arguments" but any kind of graph reduction requires a representation of references and I'm not going there on this level of non-abstraction. 00:45:27 shachaf: yes, but the user also needs to learn how to write code efficiently. that is, of course, ALWAYS the case when you want efficient code, because compilers can't just do magic. 00:45:47 Yes. The question is how you can help a user who knows what they're doing, of course. 00:46:23 both that, and what is it that the user should do exactly 00:46:29 int-e: `sk results in a unique object that represents the partial application of S to K. further applications produce new, unique objects. I'm asking if it's possible to strip away the states you use to copy subterms around. 00:46:44 imode: (the point of graph reduction is that one can share subterms which is what you seem to be suggesting) 00:46:51 not at all. 00:46:56 not interested in graphs. 00:47:06 imode: in my automaton `sk is just that. 00:47:42 imode: It's an application of s to k. There is nothing "partial" about it, it's just not a redex. 00:47:43 let me rephrase: I'm wondering if it's possible to eliminate #, %, & and @. 00:48:52 it is a partial application... S takes 3 arguments, you've converted it to something that takes 1 and applied it to a single argument. 00:49:01 rather, 1 at a time. 00:49:28 imode: Yeah, no, that's not the way I see it. ` takes 2 arguments; S and K take none. 00:50:53 imode: I'm viewing this as first-order term rewriting. Terms are built from s, k and `; no partial applications. There are rules ``k -> and ```s -> ```. I implement leftmost outermost reduction for these two rules. 00:51:01 imode: you know that you almost certainly need at least one data structure that has two child. in this case it's the S2 closure. you can choose different primitives, but you'd have to get REALLY far from combinatorial calculus before you get something with only list-like structures, no tree-like ones. 00:51:37 int-e: right, and in your execution, you're skipping/moving over subterms. I'm asking you if it's possible to remove those. 00:51:47 your state table would grow. 00:53:16 imode: I don't see how to do that with finitely many states. And copying is unavoidable if I want to implement ```s -> ``` without changing the term representation. 00:54:30 something tells me it's possible to do that with finitely many states, but _not_ generally: you'd need to generate the state tables for any particular term tree. 00:58:19 https://ptpb.pw/-OCf/text something like the following. I'm curious if it's poossible to avoid the explosion. 00:59:12 whup, one of those rules is wrong. 00:59:44 imode: the thing is, to skip over a subterm without using auxiliary symbols, you have to keep track of how many ` you have seen (since when you have to skip n subterms, after seeing a ` you have to skip n+1 subterms), and there is no bound on that number, even for a fixed starting term. 01:00:50 int-e: yes, there's no shortcut because you can't avoid a tree-like structure 01:00:55 int-e: correct. what I'm proposing isn't using a head-based evaluation method but running over the string using basic substitution rules. 01:00:57 you can't make it just lists nested to a limited depth 01:01:05 imode: oh now you have many more markers: (, S, K, ) 01:01:27 yeah but (SK) and such can be converted into single symbol markers. 01:02:11 just went for a walk earlier and thought of a possible reduction from SK to Thue. 01:02:13 imode: so now *you* have partial applications which I have avoided. 01:02:18 correct. 01:03:12 my thought is that there's a finite set of objects and a finite set of application rules that leads to an evaluator for combinatory logic. 01:03:41 I would like to understand the problem you are working on better 01:03:58 it is related to SK combinators implemented with string rewriting 01:04:04 yup. 01:04:17 and you use auxilliary characters to represent tape head, guide the evaluation and want to reduce them 01:04:22 imode: So... hmm. No, that won't end up being finite. I can produce a starting term that will evolve all off S, (SS), (SSS), (SSSS), ... for example. (It's not even hard if you know how to do abstraction elimination, since you can just iterate \x -> (x S) starting with S. 01:04:31 s/off/of/ 01:05:13 I realize that. there's an encoding I've been trying to study/mull over of SK encoded in terms of wang tiles. 01:05:13 imode: It's also completely contrary to what I intended to do... namely, find a sweet tradeoff between the number of states required, simplicity, and number of extra symbols. 01:05:24 you pasted code before with the # % stuff, can we see it again 01:05:24 think I linked it yesterday. 01:05:36 imode: do BCKW instead of SK! :-) 01:05:45 it doesn't really help, but still 01:05:54 heh. 01:06:10 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf 01:06:17 see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic 01:06:28 rain1: if you're wondering about context, the #, %, &, @ refer to states in http://paste.debian.net/1057921/ 01:06:42 ah queue automaton 01:07:35 ok how about this idea: find a much simpler queue automaton which isalso turing complete and S,K can be macro expressed into in a simple way 01:07:49 perhaps that could reduce the rewrite system a bit 01:08:01 int-e: they give a sample reduction on page 9. 01:08:34 rain1: it it would be trivial to implement any particular bitwise cyclic tag program. 01:08:50 rain1: yes, you do that by making an interpreter for one of those low-powered languages that ais523 likes 01:08:52 which involves a finite amount of objects with a finite amount of rewrite rules. it's specific, however, to that particular subterm, I think. 01:09:05 such as counter machine stuff 01:09:05 yeah but it would be difficult to express SK into cyclic tag wouldn't it? 01:09:15 very restricted ones 01:09:18 could we find something a bit more powerful than cyclic tag that's still very minimal 01:09:20 rain1: yes, it would be 01:09:30 anyway just one idea 01:09:38 you can't just get around that 01:09:43 rain1: (meaninq BCT is trivial to compile to a queue automaton; in fact it would be fair to say that it *is* a queue automaton) 01:10:28 yeah. they encode subterms as specific objects, T0 through T7. 01:10:44 so you can generate a set of tilings for _that particular_ string of applications. 01:11:08 or perhaps one of those 1-dimensional cellular automata thingies that ais523 used to consider earlier could be better than a counter-machine based approach 01:11:20 you know, the really small universal 1-dimensional CAs 01:11:36 I suppose the fundamental difficulty arises from the fact you are processing a linear string, but it represents a tree 01:11:53 rain1: yes, and it's a provable performance hit too 01:11:54 so tree parsing is mixed up with evaluation - that is what you were discussing before I interrupted 01:12:03 b_jonas: you can generate a CA to evaluate a particular term. 01:12:05 I think I am up to speed now 01:12:28 and if you simulate the CA, you can also easily add various extension rules 01:12:37 as in, periodic background patterns 01:12:50 which sort of count as cheats for pure CAs, but not here 01:13:09 so, what's interesting about that is that you can generate a CA from a CL term that's an interpreter of CL terms. 01:13:36 oh that is interesting but I imagine the result will bea large CA 01:14:01 and it will operated on a SK representation of SK combinators, which introduces overhead 01:14:01 that honestly depends on your combinator basis. 01:14:04 imode: no. I don't think that's true. the interesting about it is that there are very small universal CAs, so you can emulate them easily in a cyclic queue machine. 01:14:12 we can switch to the X single combinator basis 01:14:20 b_jonas: what's not true? 01:14:30 imode: it's not true that you can easily generate a CA from a CL term 01:15:02 did you read the PDF I linked. 01:15:05 they give a schema for it. 01:15:07 no 01:15:18 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf page 6 through 9. 01:15:37 isn't that wang tiles rather than a CA 01:15:40 gives the general method for generating a tileset from a particular term tree within a combinator basis. 01:15:54 b_jonas: One of the things that a compiler can do that doesn't happen in a struct is liveness analysis. 01:16:02 rain1: a CA is just a wang tileset that discards its history. 01:16:16 If you only need some subset of the fields for each state, a compiler can figure that out automatically. 01:16:17 a wang tiling can be seen as a representation of the history of a CA. 01:16:37 it's trivial to map a 2D wang tiling to a 1D CA, and they give an encoding of CL as a 2D wang tiling. 01:17:41 shachaf: I don't really understand that. if the compiler has the support for compiling async (yieldable) functions in a way that they suspend to a struct, then it can also do liveness analysis on it 01:18:04 Yes, sure, I mean compared to a manual struct. 01:18:05 is there some difference between that case and the case when you do user-space context switches? 01:18:11 i think that is a limited view of wang tiles 01:18:15 but I get what you mean 01:18:26 I mean this is another reason you might want to have compiler support. 01:18:35 a 3D wang tiling generates a 2D CA, for example. 01:18:52 there are also mappings between 2D wang tilings and 2D CAs. 01:19:13 shachaf: not really. a programmer can also figure out which variables they changed, and store only those, or load only the ones they use 01:19:15 you just have a large number of states. 01:19:38 Sure, but then it's not really a struct anymore. 01:19:49 Certainly you can do it. 01:19:50 don't you agree there are wang tile sets that don't relate to CA? 01:20:01 shachaf: heck, even the compiler can figure out most of that from just the individual, what's it called, primitive block? whatever you call a section of the code with only one entry point and ends at yields 01:20:15 rain1: can you show me an example of one? 01:20:25 basic block 01:21:10 imode: wtf is that paper... 01:21:11 shachaf: um, I mean, if you always reuse the same struct for the storage of the same coroutine, mutating it in place 01:21:20 int-e: a wild ride. 01:21:27 which of course works that simple only if you don't have deep call stacks 01:21:29 but still 01:21:40 heck, even without that it still works 01:21:43 even in a non-mutating way 01:21:53 sorry, the in-place store isn't very relevant 01:21:57 imode: it starts going wrong when it tries to treat SKI as a monoid. That would require b = I b = K I a b = K a b = a 01:22:11 so no, I just don't get the point 01:22:36 (monoids are associative) 01:23:20 int-e: wait, a monoid with respect to composition? HAHAHAHA 01:24:09 I mean, you might have an operation that does steps A, then B, then C. 01:24:20 "Wang Tiles is a monoid, on Tiles as terms, with Wang-arrangement as the only operation." 01:24:24 imode: it's also cute how it builds full SKI reduction into the tiles ("Connection Tiles"). 01:24:56 You can write the state as struct { enum IP { Start, A, B, C, Done }; AState a; BState b; CState c; }; or something. 01:24:57 imode: and the claim that you end up with a finite set of tiles in the end... I don't see where this is proved (which is no surprise because it's necessarily false) 01:25:09 But in fact you only need enough memory for one of those. 01:25:26 (In this case you can just use a union. But in general you might share some state between some steps and so on.) 01:25:27 int-e: if you look at page 9, you can see an example breakdown: what they've done is map a particular term to a particular set of tiles. 01:25:37 shachaf: sure, you make it a tagged union instead. 01:25:45 possibly sharing some common state that is not often modified 01:25:53 such as the caller pointer 01:25:53 so you don't end up with a _general_ set of evaluation rules for SKI in wang tiles, but you have a schema for _converting_ arbitrary SKI terms to wang tiles. 01:26:12 imode: infinitely many of them, and SKI reduction is built into the tile set. 01:26:31 Sure, you can do all that, but liveness analysis does it automatically for you, is all I'm saying. 01:26:33 no, not infinitely many. 01:26:42 even if they don't actually treat it as a monoid (but I think they do) this is utter trash. 01:26:57 you're not getting what I'm saying: they build a tileset for evaluating _one_ specific SKI term. 01:27:00 not the whole space of them. 01:27:08 and there's a schema for generating those tilesets. 01:27:10 imode: if it has a normal form 01:27:16 shachaf: the scopes of variables in the code, before compiling to an async function, is mostly tree-like, that is, with any two variables, either the first lives longer or the second lives longer, the scope of one contains the other, 01:27:17 you do not need infinitely many tiles. 01:27:48 shachaf: and that implies that if you turn it to a struct, you always get a properly nested union-struct, with copies/moves necessary only when the orignal code copies/moves a value. 01:28:49 if this paper is bullshit then supercombinators are bullshit. :P 01:29:52 imode: For every reduction step, the full redex must be captured in a Wang tile (Fig. 2 is the only place where reductions happen), so all we need is a starting term with unbounded redex size. 01:30:10 imode: Really, this is nonsense. I'm sorry to have seen this paper. 01:30:25 I mean, write up a response to it with proofs. 01:30:55 I think hasty dismissal isn't a good way of doing things. 01:31:00 two-dimension might help to represent a tree structure, because you can put each child expression of the tree one row below the parent, so it's easier to skip the expression by just skipping through markers in the row above, without having to count parenthesis 01:31:01 oh 01:31:09 I see int-e's point 01:31:25 it would require infinitely many tiles 01:31:26 I mean, if you want to simulate evaluating combinatorial logic with a two-dimensional CA 01:31:30 but a wang tileset should be finite 01:31:32 of course with just wang tiles it won't help, 01:31:43 because with wag tiling you need the second dimension for time 01:31:48 (it may be parallel, but still) 01:33:15 bear in mind there are also other versions of this paper that go a little more in depth with actual proofs. 01:33:18 let me find one. 01:34:18 "22nd International Workshop on Concurrency, Specification and Programming" ... sad. 01:39:00 I can see that some wang tilings are like CAs 01:39:08 but I don't see that all wang tilings are CAs 01:39:13 I can't give an example 01:39:41 it seems like the constructed tilesets have been built with a uniqueness property where the next row/col can be determined by the current one 01:40:13 or would it be that each cell is determined by the 3 above it? 01:40:44 rain1: of course not. they're more powerful than CAs, because they can do time travel loops, which gets it PSPACE-complete or something. 01:40:57 thank you 01:41:03 that's the key i was missing 01:41:20 pardon me? 01:41:27 b_jonas: got a proof for that? lmao. 01:41:53 imode: well, they're actually uncomputable, because the space is unbounded 01:41:59 so PSPACE-complete is not really true 01:42:04 they're not limited to PSPACE 01:42:11 you know how they're uncomputable, right? 01:42:33 yes... very much aware. 01:42:38 imode: Wang tiles *can* implement string rewrite systems, using an approach like that. But it turns out that combinatory logic is not a string rewrite system, and you actually need to put in some effort (which the authors haven't done) to treat it by string rewriting) 01:42:42 you can just simulate any nondeterministic turing-machine with one tape 01:42:57 the key point is that it allows any nondeterminism 01:43:02 which is why you can go back in time 01:43:08 i don't like the way imode responsd 01:43:35 b_jonas: how does nondeterminism allow you to go backwards in time? 01:43:52 rain1: what's that supposed to mean? 01:43:56 imode: crucially, the objects of string rewriting (i.e., strings) do have a monoidal structure. 01:44:38 imode: you can send information back in time by nondeterministically guessing the information back in the past, sending that information to the future, then making the solution impossible in the future if the information you want to send back isn't the one that you got from the past 01:45:27 imode: usually it's told the other way, as in, time travel allows arbitrary nondeterminism, in the TCS sense, but it works backwards too 01:45:32 you've lost me, but I don't think that's how nondeterministic execution works. 01:45:55 imode: how does it work then? 01:45:55 imode: and also crucially, the redexes for any given SRS have bounded size. 01:47:00 b_jonas: Sometimes (often?) a variable is declared early and then stops being used in the middle of a block. 01:48:16 int-e: can you explain to me how they got their results, then? why is it that they were able to compile a particular term down to wang tilings? I don't quite buy the argument that the compiled terms are required to have normal forms. 01:48:43 imode: paper is incredibly patient. you can write anything you like. 01:48:45 b_jonas: you have multiple possible choices per computation steps, and thus multiple possible paths. 01:48:51 shachaf: yes. then it's not really strictly tree-like. but note that that only matters if there's a yield in between when it's stopped using and when another variable is started to use. it doesn't matter if you just compute a different new variable from the old one in one step without yield, which is very common. 01:48:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:48:59 imode: there are no results. there are unsubstantiated claims. 01:49:00 imode: yes. that's the guessing part. 01:49:17 int-e: and yet they were able to show a particular reduction... 01:49:19 you guess by starting a possible choice for each possible value the information you're guessing can have. 01:49:25 b_jonas: Why doesn't it matter? 01:49:55 shachaf: because where there's no yield, you don't have to save or load the values to the state struct. 01:50:00 int-e: help me out here, what's the problem? can you show me a combinatory term that's not able to be translated (using this schema) to wang tiles? 01:50:09 Sure, in that case. 01:50:14 imode: yes, you can write down any finite reduction in that fashion. but it doesn't generalize to infinite reductions, and the system is not sound (it allows you to write down non-reductions that have wrong results, like the a = b chain above) 01:51:12 shachaf: yes, I admit that in some cases it's not strictly tree-like, and you will definitely get such a case when eg. you have a server that's handling a hundred requests asynchroniously and each can take different amount of waiting to another party. 01:51:35 one moment, gotta walk the dog. highlight me and I'll read back. 01:52:02 same here, sans dog 01:55:29 int-e: well, technically you may need a more complicated a=b chain than the one above, because if you don't have S in your expression, then you can always just restrict the rules to do evaluation steps only when the argument is an atom. you need something with parenthesis required in it. 01:55:44 but yeah, that if a is a parenthisized expression. 01:55:56 hmm no, I'm stupid 01:56:22 you do have parenthesis, where you write I b = K (I a) b = K I a b = K a b 01:56:29 it's the middle step there that's wrong 01:57:01 so yeah, I guess you might not need parenthesis 01:59:31 um 01:59:34 I guess you might not need S 01:59:38 you do need the parens 02:04:49 back. 02:06:12 imode: ignore what I said while I was gone, that's nonsense. listen to int-e, he's got it right. 02:06:32 so, here's my reasoning: if you look on page 9 of that paper, the list of "Subterms", they've taken a particular combinatory term and knocked it down to a particular set of objects which they map using a schema to a particular set of tiles, and the tiling of those tiles produces the result. even if you had something like the Y combinator written down, when applied to a particular combinator term, _you would 02:06:32 still_ be able to generate a finite amount of tiles, but your tiling would be infinite. 02:08:25 I agree that the paper is somewhat underspecified but I don't see the damning evidence that it's all trash. 02:09:46 I'm also not too keen on insulting people's work after a quick glance at it, but that's just my approach. 02:10:29 still trying to find that alternate version of said paper. 02:19:45 -!- nchambers has joined. 02:19:59 -!- nchambers has changed nick to uplime. 02:22:48 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:24:43 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1269/paper34.pdf found this one. it details the same stuff but also includes an implementation of a general CL interpreter within wang tiles by way of a turing machine encoding, similar to your's, int-e. 02:25:47 so to me it details two approaches: compiling CL terms to their corresponding tilesets, and interpreting an encoding of CL with a single tileset. 02:26:33 the latter is obvious. the former not so much, but I don't see why it isn't a possible thing. perhaps there even exists an implementation to go along with the paper. I'll try to track one down. 02:43:49 Hm, wang tiles correspond quite closely to 1-d nondet cellular automata. I'm not sure if I realized that yet or not. That actually explains why wang tiles are considered powerful, in the sense that they can do hard to predict things with just few different tiles. The tiles correspond to the states of the CA, the CA has that neighborhood where each cell depends on only two cells in the past (not three), 02:44:02 only the border conditions of Wang tiles are rather strange, very different from what we're used to with CAs. 02:44:43 I'm not sure if I had realized that before about Wang tiles or not. 02:45:18 I think I missed it because I learned about Wang tiles and then mostly forgot about it, and only later learned about how even deterministic 1D CA are so powerful. 02:45:57 yeah. there are multiple possible tilings, and it's actually pretty cool to watch a backtracking solver (starting from a seed tile) try to work out a tile by spiralling out. 02:46:29 it is possible to make fully deterministic tilings, though, which correspond to fully deterministic 1D CAs. 02:46:40 the specific literature eludes me at the moment. 02:47:53 imode: sure, because a nondet CA is strictly more powerful than a deterministic CA 02:48:05 that's usually the way we define nondeterminisitc variants of things 02:48:23 what? 02:48:33 that's not at all true. 02:48:47 um, example? 02:49:06 the fact that a nondeterministic TM can be simulated within a deterministic TM and vice versa. 02:49:11 the same goes for CAs. 02:49:24 no no 02:49:27 that's not what I'm saying 02:49:28 nondeterministic TMs are not more powerful than deterministic TMs. 02:49:39 I'm only saying one dimension 02:49:40 um 02:49:42 one direction 02:49:56 elaborate? 02:50:03 that the deterministic thingy can be translated to a nondeterministic thingy easilyi 02:50:06 not backwards 02:50:46 nondeterministic TMs can be pretty easily converted to deterministic TMs. 02:51:01 imode: no, that's backwards 02:51:52 how is that backwards. 02:53:57 imode: um, there's probably some terminology problem here 02:54:04 nondeterministic TMs can be converted to deterministic TMs via dovetailing, which isn't that hard of a thing to do. they can be seen simply as a class of machines that utilize the dovetailing technique. 02:54:38 I can sort of see what you mean if you say that nondeterministic TMs can be seen as taking deterministic TMs as a subset. 02:54:51 but I can invert that and say that nondeterministic TMs are really just a specific subclass of TMs. 02:55:02 s/subclass of TMs./subclass of deterministic TMs. 02:56:12 imode: um yes, but the dovetailing is still much harder in general than converting the other way, from a determinisitc TM to a nondeterministic TM, for which you don't need dovetailing, only some trivial transformation 02:56:48 the specific transformation of course depends on how exactly you define the TM, but then so does the other direction 02:56:58 (how you define TM, and how you define nondeterministic TM) 02:57:00 like I said, I can invert the relation and say that nondeterministic TMs are just classes of deterministic TMs in which you want to phrase parallel computations. 02:57:08 or pseudorandom choice. 02:57:16 between multiple branches. 02:57:39 it's more 1-D cellular automata than turing-machines that matter here, and the "dovetailing" part actually gets much easier there, mind you 02:57:48 because the CAs are naturally parallel 02:58:21 the hard part is just making sure that the memory of each simluated copy grows fast enough, which is what remains of the dovetailing 02:58:21 I'm not sure they are, but they _do_ lend themselves pretty naturally to parallel evaluation methods. 02:58:58 like I get what you're saying: nondeterministic TMs are harder to phrase as deterministic TMs because of the extra overhead. 02:59:16 but I can make the same argument that simulating a game of chess is hard on a deterministic TM rather than a gameboard with a couple of pieces and some parallel rewrite rules. 02:59:40 it's not a fault of the concept of deterministic TMs, but it's just a class of machines. 03:01:26 your choice of model defines what kinds of computations are easy and what kinds are hard. 03:05:01 imode: wait, are you saying that the paper that translates the combinatorial logic evaluation to Wang tiles uses such a transformation that can make the Wang tile pattern infinite in some significant way (not periodic, nor even some more complicated pattern that's easy to describe in a finite way), even if the evaluation tree of the combinatorial logic is finite? 03:05:51 not sure what'cha mean, could you rephrase that? having a hard time parsing stuff. 03:07:13 imode: um, if you have a set of Wang tiles, there are at least two questions you can ask. (1) one question is whether they can tile a rectangle with adjacent edges identified (eg. a flat torus), which is more or less the same as asking whether it tiles the plane in a periodic way; 03:07:31 (2) the other question is whether the tiles tile the plane, not necessarily in a periodic way. 03:09:49 ah. what I was really just saying is that, using their scheme, it's possible to generate a set of Wang tiles that correspond to terms and subterms (and applications of them) within a certain system of combinators. so small applications of combinators generate other small applications of combinators. these are always finite: one particular string of combinator applications generates another string of 03:09:49 combinator applications, and each string can be taken as a single object or multiple objects being applied to eachother. 03:09:51 these two questions are essentially different: the first one is computable with the wang tiles as input, the second one is not. 03:10:13 this is magic that depends on the periodic bounding combinations. whether the wang tiles tile a rectangle with all zero edges isn't computable. 03:10:19 if I understand correctly. 03:10:33 so I guess maybe there are three different questions, not two. 03:10:34 whether there exists tilings at all for certain tilesets is undecidable, yeah. 03:11:21 so, the key here is this: we can represent subterms like (SKK) as single terms. any particular combinatory term is guaranteed to generate some particular set of subterms, and we can consider this set finite and use it to build up other terms. 03:11:47 so my question is essentially, if the combinatorial logic expression has a finite evaluation, then what kind of tiling do you get from that, if you translate it using what the article does? a tiling of the torus, of the plane, of a rectangle with zero borders, or something else? 03:11:57 for any combinatory logic formula, we can generate a set of wang tiles from it such that the tiling of those Wang tiles matches up with the reduction of _that single particular combinatory logic formula_. 03:12:18 well, that's the thing. the tiling varies based on the expression you wanna evaluate. 03:12:22 and of course whether this transformation is one for which you don't need to compute the entire evaluation tree in advance. 03:12:28 because the tiles change from expression to expression. 03:12:38 (SKK)S has a different set of tiles, for example, than (SKK)K. 03:13:13 but the set of tiles is finite. and even if you include something like the Y combinator, or expressions that don't reduce to normal form, _you still have a finite set of tiles_. 03:13:48 imode: wait, so it's a "cheating" transformation that does the turing-complete step of evaluating the term in advance? 03:14:18 not exactly, no. unless you consider a C compiler reducing things down to assembly a cheating transformation. 03:14:35 that's essentially their method. 03:15:10 no reductions are being performed beforehand. 03:15:21 as in, do they basically take the infinite tileset of all possible combinators, or perhaps all possible combinators with a normal form or some such, and then if there's a finite evaluation, then obviously there's only finitely many combinators that appear in that evaluation, but you have to do the full evaluation first to determine that set. 03:15:29 ? 03:15:56 you don't have to do the full evaluation to determine the set from what I can see. 03:16:06 like, look at page 9. 03:16:17 page 9 of which pdf 03:17:00 sorry, let me relink you. 03:17:02 you mentioned at least two 03:17:07 thanks 03:17:20 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf 03:17:24 though I'll have to go to bed very soon, but we'll have the logs 03:17:24 this one. 03:17:29 gotcha. 03:17:43 so, they broke down a particular combinatory term, (((K(S(KK)(S(KK)I))a)b)c)d, into subterms. 03:17:56 much like you'd break down a particular textual term into a graph of subterms, right? 03:18:48 T6, for example, is KK, and there are two places in that formula where KK is located. 03:20:14 you can then show, by way of the schema on page 6 (which I am still studying on how to use properly), that each subterm corresponds to a set of introductions, folds, unfolds, connections (which propagate terms forward) and terminals (which represent the end of a computation). 03:21:21 imode: but that's one particular term. isn't this something that should apply to any combinatorial logic expression? 03:21:49 correct, but you need to generate a _new tileset_ for every expression you want to evaluate. 03:22:39 page 9 seems uninformative, most of it is a huge figure, but let me look at before that too 03:22:50 the _second_ version of the paper I linked shows a _general_ CL interpreter, which employs the use of a turing machine. 03:22:58 which can work for any CL expression. 03:23:58 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1269/paper34.pdf the second version. 03:24:31 so they effectively describe two approaches: one in which you compile a particular CL formula down to a set of wang tiles, and then use the tiling to compute the result of the reduction of that formula... 03:25:06 and the other in which you have to start with an interpreter of CL within Wang tiles encoded as a turing machine evaluating CL terms. 03:25:39 from pages 5 and 6, I think the error in the paper (or one significant error, at least) is exactly what int-e said 03:25:54 which would be? 03:26:08 yeah and it doesn't work because the reduction isn't prepared to deal with arguments that are longer than a single character. 03:26:17 ("it" being the Turing Machine) 03:26:51 not sure where you're getting that, int-e. 03:26:55 int-e: either that, or it is prepared to deal with it by creating new tiles for each reduction of combinatorial terms that ever occurs in the evaluation 03:26:57 These people don't know what they're doing at the theoretical end of their work. They *may* know something about DNA computing and Wang tiles though I'm skeptical about that. 03:27:14 y'know, why don't you try backing up your statements instead of needlessly bashing people. 03:27:25 if they're wrong, diagram it in clear wording. 03:27:38 imode: I'm looking at page 6 and there's no bracket handling in the reduction for K, I or S, except that S *inserts* brackets somewhere. 03:27:54 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:28:15 they don't require bracket handling because they're not reducing a textual form of a CL expression. 03:28:31 imode: I'm suspicious about the DNA computing too. that's like the people who claim that soap bubbles or protein folding can efficiently solve NP problems, because *in practice* the possible results of protein folding or soap bubbles can be guessed well from a minimization problem 03:28:36 they've extracted common subterms (like you would using graph reduction). 03:28:36 um 03:28:38 int-e: ^ 03:28:50 imode: All you have to do is try running the TM on K(KI)K and see that it gets stuuck in state TK. 03:29:05 int-e: can you provide an example tileset which shows that? 03:29:21 they're not encoding a TM, by the by. 03:29:31 well, in the first paper, and in the first section of the second. 03:29:35 heck, int-e is probably right, those tiles do seem to explicitly assume that the application is associative, even if each of those colors can represent complicated terms 03:30:22 imode: (\f. f f) (\f x p. p x (f f (S x))) S will require an infinite tile set. have fun doing the abstraction elimination... 03:30:23 yeah, what he said 03:30:25 b_jonas: DNA computing in this regard builds Wang tiles out of DNA molecules. 03:30:34 I'm DONE. Good night. 03:30:37 and has actually been demonstrated. not a fan of the approach. 03:30:49 int-e: gooodnight. you've provided nothing. 03:31:03 o/ 03:31:25 imode: right, but the real DNA won't actually compute full non-deterministic problems, just like how the reil proteins won't magically fold into the optimal energy arrangements 03:31:46 good night 03:31:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:32:34 lots of hostility with a lack of evidence. for a place where unconventional computing methods are accepted, there's quite a bit of hostility. 03:42:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:45:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:46:23 . o O ( must resist temptation to look at the pdf to find out if imode or int-e is right ) 03:50:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:57:10 imode: just from viewing the discussion here, i suspect int-e is at the point where he considers the error so obvious that it feels like an insult to expect him to write out the counterexample in detail. 03:57:53 as in, he has a general idea why it _cannot_ work but it's a pain to write out. 03:58:08 then there's nothing more to discuss, as noted by him. 03:58:12 * imode shrugs. 03:59:09 To add insult to the injury: if you restrict the redexes of SKI calculus to a finite set then you get a ground term rewrite system, for which reachability is decidable; hence it's no longer Turing complete. 04:00:12 -!- uplime has joined. 04:00:15 if you're not going to go into any further detail I'm pretty much done as well. 04:00:27 no need to watch people trash other people's work. 04:00:58 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 04:01:19 But yes, I'm totally unwilling to work out the counterexample in any detail because Wang tiles are not the right level of abstraction to work on. I've given the high-level reason further above: Since the full redex is encoded in a Wang tile, and there are reductions for which there are infinitely many distinct redexes, a finite set cannot be enough. 04:01:52 a full redex _is not_ encoded in a wang tile. complexes and subredexes are. 04:02:20 You're wrong. ("redex" refers to the subterm that is headed by the K or S being contracted) 04:02:35 "You're wrong." "That's trash." 04:02:48 I mean, are you going to go into any kind of detail whatsoever. 04:03:15 Yeah. I'm angry at this point, because you have shown no evidence of actually doing any fucking work yourself. 04:03:23 -!- int-e has left. 04:03:49 how someone can get so emotional over something so irrelevant is beyond me. hope he's alright. 04:04:21 like, if I'm wrong, perfect, I didn't write the damn paper. 04:05:08 hell I'm even trying to work out a tileset for his counterexample, which seems like a reasonable approach. 04:05:19 hope he feels better when he comes back. 04:06:40 if he's right then evaluation should get stuck when one of those newly constructed redexes (that aren't represented in the tiles) has to be reduced. 04:08:24 I agree with him. I'm trying to follow the methods they used for constructing factorial near the bottom of the paper. 04:10:18 they give a series of tuples where each tuple corresponds to a wang tile. each side of a tile corresponds to a subterm, and from what I saw, subterms can be shared. I'm not sure how K(KI)K leads to a redex that can't be represented (or hasn't been generated) as a tile. 04:10:23 or as a series of tiles. 04:11:37 the K(KI)K example was meant for the TM construction, i suspect 04:11:50 ah. I don't really care about that bit. 04:12:14 it's not really interesting. the compilation bit, now _that's_ interesting. 04:13:02 I'll have to draw out the factorial tiles tomorrow. 04:13:34 they introduce extra convenience combinators related to pairs and naturals, but give no tiles that correspond to them. 04:14:27 ahhh, nevermind, those are schemes, not actual tilesets. 04:14:46 meaning you stick whatever numbers you want in the subscripts and out pop your tiles. _that_ makes sense. 04:14:58 i think the (\f. f f) (\f x p. p x (f f (S x))) S example was for the compilation thing, although i suspect p is unnecessary here... 04:15:16 so (\f. f f) (\f x. x (f f (S x))) S 04:15:48 is the gist just "generate an infinite series of applications like S(S(S..."? 04:16:16 or am I missing something. 04:16:44 because from what I can see, there's no issue in doing something like that. 04:16:54 well also to do it in such a way that the arguments passed to functions have to grow. 04:17:24 there's nothing in here that says that you have to represent things like that as a single tile: in fact, that's not the case at all. 04:17:29 so that they cannot be something that is already encoded as a single tile 04:18:08 correct: the structure of the terms is incidental, based on how the terms pair. you're not shoving entire trees into single tiles, otherwise you _would_ need infinite tiles. 04:18:28 but you _can_ extract commonly found subtrees and use them to form larger applications. 04:18:56 which if I'm drawing this correctly, the addition example does. 04:19:19 imode: ok, but can it reduce something like S x y z, where x,y and z are _not_ subterms of the original expression? 04:19:45 yes, because you can construct the subterms that _aren't_ in the original expression _from_ subterms in the original expression. 04:20:03 at least from what I can see. 04:20:58 like their tiles and reductions reflect subterm sharing. 04:21:04 imode: you can construct them, but does reduction work for them? 04:21:16 yeah, looks like it. otherwise naturals would break down almost instantly. 04:21:28 hm 04:22:18 http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf trying to draw out and navigate page 13 of this PDF. 04:23:22 the footnote on that page details that n and m are essentially "pre-selected numbers", so fill in the naturals and generate your tiles from this schema. 05:11:50 imode: ok i browsed through some of the pdf. assuming you're not meant to "evaluate ahead" to find tile colors, as far as i can see, there is no way to reduce S x y z unless at least _one_ of S x y, z, or S x y z is a tile color. Constructing an SKI expression that eventually reduces S x y z where none of x, y or z occur in the original expression is left as an exercise. 05:17:11 or more generally, you cannot ever reduce an application if it is not equivalent to an original tile color or the application of a pair of tile colors. 05:17:54 that sounds about right to me. 05:17:57 which means you cannot, say, construct an infinite list of numbers. 05:18:39 (say, lazy list of factorials) 05:18:51 I'll have to try that. 05:21:12 that monoid thing also looks a bit grating - it seems to me that you could easily get into a situation where evaluation confuses a b (c d) with a (b c) d 05:21:39 I tried diving down the rabbit hole with that. 05:24:10 although i'm a little unsure whether the "sound computation grid" property is supposed to help with that 05:26:26 hm actually it _does_ seem to be intended to do that 05:27:48 essentially it enforces a kind of parenthesization by dividing up the grid into non-interacting parts. 05:29:56 (how they expect DNA to enforce that property i dunno ;P) 05:31:07 the DNA stuff is actually plausible: you can form small DNA tiles by forming two DNA strands in such a way that the base pairs encode the colors of the edges, and only bind to base pairs. 05:31:16 that ironically is the most plausible point of this, because it's been done. 05:33:03 yes, i mean the sub-grid property, not the individual tiles 05:33:08 oh. 05:33:17 sorry, reading comprehension failed me. 06:59:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:13:26 Now in this GURPS I can tell who is the shapeshifter because they have "X" on their forehead. Next, I have to stop them from writing "X" on everyone else's forehead too! 08:26:48 -!- tromp has joined. 10:02:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:06:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:16:56 after some careful consideration that paper was full of shit. 10:17:21 I tried working some of the tilings out and yeah, the people above me were right. 10:17:43 oh well! 10:33:08 -!- int-e has joined. 10:33:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:33:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:40:30 -!- tromp has joined. 10:58:39 imode: Three remarks about why I might core than I maybe should. a) this is essentially in my current area of research (term rewriting, tree automata (which feature in decidability results for ground term rewrite systems; http://tata.gforge.inria.fr/ may be the best available source on that topic)) b) I hate to see people wasting their time with wrong claims c) it becomes frustrating when I fail... 10:58:45 ...to convey that information efficiently, ending up wasting even more time rather than helping. 10:58:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:59:42 int-e: it's fine, you're good! I concluded independently that it's not a good paper. 11:00:25 there's some woeful underspecification or lack of understanding on their part. 11:02:58 -!- derpy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:03:26 -!- derpy has joined. 11:03:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:16:20 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:49:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:42:39 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:43:19 int-e: it doesn't get stuck on (KI). there are tiles to open the parenthesis. anywhere, even in a left term. they really seem to believe that the application is associative. 12:44:11 int-e: also, not only do they add a color for every combinator calculus term, but also a tile for every combinator calculus reduction. not just one step reduction, but any reduction. so you can do any finite computation in one tile. 12:44:52 that latter part is a fixable bug, but I think it illustrates how the authors don't understand what they're talking about. 12:44:59 b_jonas: as oerjan suggested, that was for the Turing Machine in the second paper. 12:45:58 int-e: that may make a bit more sense, because a TM can actually be simluated as a 1-D CA in a more straightforward way than the, uh, monoid of combinator calculus 12:46:24 the "monoid" thing confused me because they don't explicitly state what operation it's a monoid over, but it does become clear by page 6 12:46:56 ("that" referring to the K(KI)) 12:48:32 int-e: and yes, I agree that you can't work out a proper counterexample, because the paper is vague enough without precise definitions and proofs that you can't point out more specifically than that where the error is 12:50:43 int-e: the part where they have single-tile reduction for every calculation is great, because if they actually implemented that, it would let them get the right result in a randomized imlementation that looks for random small tilings, as opposed to a true nondeterministic implementation, so the DNA computation would run trivially with just one transformation from the input to the result and a lot of 12:50:49 unused stuff 12:52:48 wtf, now even oerjan looked at it? why? 12:52:57 (still looking at the logs) 12:53:56 `? cdop 12:53:58 CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order. 12:55:25 Put differently, he probably reached the point where he had to find out what all the ruckus was about. 12:56:29 int-e: also, I verified that for both of those disconnected polyminos, there's essentially one tiling that is invariant to translation (0,8) and translation (8,0), and I know the tilings I had back when I first tried this were invariant to those. that imples that the tilings you show on grid6.png are the ones I found. 12:57:32 int-e: these polyminos are significant because I think, but I'm not sure, that they're the only polyminos of 4 squares that can't tile the plane with just translations and horizontal and vertical mirrors and 180 deg rotations, you really need a 90 deg rotation or diagonal mirror 12:57:41 there was an article on that, let me check 13:20:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:58:44 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:08:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:06:36 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:13:17 -!- Essadon has joined. 15:14:01 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 15:14:27 -!- Essadon has joined. 15:15:47 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:18:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:23:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:35:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:42:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 15:45:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:45:04 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 15:49:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:51:30 it was good 16:14:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:24:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:37:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:14:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:14:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:39:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:00:02 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:04:27 `olist 1150 18:04:28 olist 1150: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 18:13:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:33:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:33:43 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:36:00 private fireworks are going strong 18:37:38 -!- tromp has joined. 18:38:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:42:32 here too 18:42:59 @time 18:43:01 Local time for shachaf is Mon Dec 31 10:42:59 2018 18:44:47 hm xkcd's consensus new year was about a quarter hour ago 18:45:04 so happy new year, i guess! 18:57:33 it's not yet new year, but happy new year to you as well 18:57:34 b_jonas: that crap paper actually has a kind of solution to the monoid confusion in the "sound computation grid" section. however, the fact that every reduction result needs to be represented on a tile clearly blows it for any expression that constructs infinitely something like the lazy list of factorials i suggested. 18:57:59 oerjan: ok 18:58:27 b_jonas: see xkcd hth 19:01:01 and yeah, i had to see if the problem with the paper was as obvious as int-e implied. 19:01:08 oerjan: yes, I've seen it 19:01:13 (plus, i didn't like the animosity) 19:02:46 -!- imode has joined. 19:03:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:03:23 happy new year's eve. 19:03:32 hip hip 19:04:04 new year starts in less than four hours by the way 19:04:10 let's celebrate 19:15:40 is freenode doing that newyears thing again? 19:16:29 imode: I'm not sure what counts as a "that newyears thing" specifically. there's a #freenode-newyears linked from the topic of #freenode , but then, irc channels are cheap once you have a network up 19:16:43 imode: do you mean sending wallops? 19:16:49 or global notices or whatever? 19:17:12 the channel was what I was referring to. 19:20:56 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 19:24:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:29:55 what? 19:30:03 I'm confused now 19:30:22 it's a common human state hth 19:30:50 in NES Super Mario Bros, how many fireballs does it take to kill Bowser (without jumping on him)? I thought it took six, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJcAPGf0Z6A says five. 19:32:42 I may be mixing it up with GB Super Mario Land, in that one it takes six fireballs to kill most of the bosses (the castle bosses are immune, and the witch is possible to kill but very hard because she despawns immediately after a hit) 19:34:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:10:52 -!- uplime has joined. 20:14:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:14:25 in girl genius, maxim's nose seems to be growing lately. 20:22:24 Hmm private fireworks are illegal in the city this year... still hearing stuff though. People don't know or don't care. 20:22:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:23:20 int-e: they are legal here with strong restrictions, but most of how people use them are illegal and sometimes dangerous 20:23:23 so be careful 20:23:50 But I guess it's quieter than last year. 20:26:43 i think they're allowed in the suburbs here but not the city center 20:30:30 it's per muncipality, and I guess it's allowed outside of cities where it's not a fire hazard. 20:33:16 forbidden inside the red stippled line, allowed 18:00 - 2:00 outside https://www.tbrt.no/images/artikkelbilder/ForbudssoneforfyrverkeriiTrondheim.jpg 20:34:06 * oerjan isn't even on that map, but a bit further east 20:35:12 (there are municipal fireworks inside the zone though) 20:36:53 b_jonas: hah. "experts warn of illegal firecrackers" 20:37:46 I'm used to that warning. It hasn't changed in the past 30 years. 20:38:45 (and personally I don't even like the legal ones) 20:39:48 oerjan> hm xkcd's consensus new year was about a quarter hour ago => wow, pretty close to mine! (UTC+5) 20:41:26 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 20:41:28 hmm, average time zones by person? so india and china have a huge influence? 20:41:40 int-e: median 20:41:46 (I had not seen the xkcd yet) 20:42:10 right, median makes more sense actually 20:46:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:49:17 ah, not that close, it’s 6:30 UTC, not what I thought, so not that significant. Or contrary, more significant, as it’s further from the median and so rarer(?) 20:50:53 average would be a bad idea, it may be skewed by the few people who live in mediaeval theme parks that are in timezones several centuries before most of the earth 20:51:03 ok, maybe not that skewed, but still 20:55:04 The red line doesn't seems to enclose anything. 21:02:25 -!- 77FABDJ8V has joined. 21:09:40 zzo38: the fjord is not very flammable and so considered obviously not included hth 21:10:14 i suppose you could ask how far from shore a boat must be 21:15:03 Yes, so they should make the line enclosed so that you can know. 21:15:29 -!- 77FABDJ8V has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:12 "You must not set off fireworks between 11pm and 7am, except for: -- New Year’s Eve -- when the cut off is 1am" 21:35:16 There were a few pops when there was still daylight, which is a bit odd. 21:37:01 fizzie: sure. a lot of the illegal explosives go for the sound and blowing off stupid people's hands, not for the sight. 21:37:26 it's traditional for a few people to blow their own hands off every New Year 21:38:41 people are discouraged from that both because the kinds of explosives used for that are illegal and if you blow your hand off you're almost certainly discovered, and because spending New Year in the hospital is unpleasant, but people still do it 21:39:15 There's far more fireworks here on Bonfire Night (aka Guy Fawkes Night) than on New Year's. 21:47:01 Anyone in the +0200 timezone (Finland or Romania)? Should we do a small countdown then? 21:50:25 -!- tromp has joined. 21:51:39 Because if not, then I'll reserve the celebration for the +0100 and leave some for the +0000, -0500, -0800 ones. 21:51:56 Anyway, I'll prepare the New Year sausages. 21:54:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:00:11 For anyone with +0100 timzone offset, happy New Year! 22:02:44 . o O ( i think you're off by one again ) 22:04:45 yeah darn +0200 22:07:22 . o O ( CET+1 ) 22:09:42 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:13:42 -!- uplime has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:18:48 -!- tromp has joined. 22:57:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:59:37 And now the New Year is coming up in our timezone offset, the actual +0100 (France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Hungary) 22:59:43 Just a few minutes. 22:59:50 And now the New Year is coming up in our timezone offset very soon, the actual +0100 (France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Hungary) 23:00:08 BOOM. 23:01:43 happy new year! 23:02:17 * int-e listens to money going up in smoke. 23:04:08 Happy New Year! 23:04:39 oh sirens 23:10:32 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:17:04 -!- uplime has joined. 23:30:21 -!- tromp has joined. 23:34:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:51:33 In the +0000 timezone offset (UK), New Year will start in about 9 minutes. 23:52:09 Not much action on the fireworks front. 23:56:09 There was more half an hour ago. Maybe everyone's watching the official ones. 23:56:23 (Sadly our windows are to the wrong direction.) 23:58:31 less than 90 seconds 23:58:49 fizzie: use the power of the internet to watch the official ones! 23:59:23 -!- tromp has joined.