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00:37:14 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59039 * Areallycoolusername * (+1925) Created page with "[[P0pCrn]] is an esolang made by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It's based off of x86 Assembly and it has cells. == Specifics == [[P0pCrn]] code is made up of three columns..."
00:39:58 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59040&oldid=59039 * Areallycoolusername * (+39)
00:42:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59041&oldid=59012 * Areallycoolusername * (+34) /* P */
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00:50:07 <oerjan> let's see if e's done anything bannable
00:53:45 <esowiki> [[Category:Turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59042&oldid=59031 * Oerjan * (-11) Undo revision 59031 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]])
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00:57:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59043&oldid=59032 * Oerjan * (-42) Undo revision 59032 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]]) (It's really not interesting enough for this list, or funny.)
01:00:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59044&oldid=59036 * Oerjan * (-42) Undo revision 59036 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]]) (Featuring process doesn't work that way, and the language isn't good enough.)
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03:38:49 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59045&oldid=59025 * Zzo38 * (+30) Link to the explanation of NL complexity class
03:44:15 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59046&oldid=59045 * Ais523 * (-3) it's not in policy yet, but people have been unpiping links to Wikipedia too (which makes sense as they may not be expecting interwiki links), so do that here too
03:44:55 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59047&oldid=59046 * Ais523 * (-11) remove some redundancy that was created as a result of the previous change
03:46:30 <ais523> I was working out how to write 2-SAT in Nellephant
03:47:25 <ais523> co-2-SAT is easy, 2-SAT is possible but mindbogglingly hard (it's worth looking up the basic idea behind the NL/co-NL equivalence, it's not obvious at all) just to solve as a decision problem
03:47:39 <ais523> (note: this is all in my head, I didn't write it down)
03:49:25 <ais523> doing 2-SAT and actually writing the results takes some thought too; the idea is to build the implication graph, then if anything's forced due to being implied by its negation, output that, and if the value of something isn't forced, take the longest chain of connected components you can go through going forwards via implications from both it and its negation, and whichever one has the shorter chain is the one you should output (you can prove that
03:49:27 <ais523> this will produce consistent outputs)
03:49:31 <oerjan> Nellephant sort of needs a way to do the Immerman-Szelepcsényi Theorem
03:50:19 <ais523> if the two chains are the same length, you need to make an arbitrary-but-consistent-within-the-connected-component choice, such as by looking at whether the alphabetically earliest variable in the connected component happens to be negated or not
03:54:57 <oerjan> hm, i'm not sure if i previously knew 2SAT was NL-complete
03:55:30 <oerjan> i think i thought it was P-complete or so
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03:56:19 <ais523> P-complete is hard to define
03:56:27 <ais523> NP-complete means "if this is in P, everything else is"
03:56:30 <ais523> but the existence of P is important
03:56:55 <ais523> if, say, 3SAT turned out to be in NL (which would be very unexpected), I don't think that automatically forces NP=NL
03:56:57 <oerjan> not really, you use L-reductions (or maybe even lower), like with NL-completeness
03:56:58 <salpynx> do you have an interpreter for Nellephant in progress? Without examples or an interpreter to play with, I haven't quite got the NL-ness yet, not that I have sat down to give it a proper investigation
03:57:16 <ais523> so you need to say "NP-complete via reductions in P"
03:57:23 <ais523> I think NL would make a decent reduction class for P-completeness
03:57:30 <ais523> salpynx: not currently, I want to write one but haven't started
03:58:10 <oerjan> there are NP-complete problems that are so with L-reductions. i suspect 3SAT is one.
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03:59:47 <ais523> I'm still trying to get my head around rules of NL like "you can iterate over a set only if you know how many items it has"
03:59:50 <oerjan> so 3SAT in NL should imply NL=P.
04:00:34 <ais523> I'm curious as to whether you can do primality testing in NL; it wouldn't surprise me if you could even if NL≠P
04:00:42 <ais523> but I also think nobody knows how
04:01:27 <oerjan> i think would have been a famous result if anything lower than P was known
04:01:32 <salpynx> does that mean the instruction set is still in progress, or are you confident that the existing instructions are sufficient for NL?
04:01:45 <ais523> yes, even being in P was a big result
04:01:52 <ais523> salpynx: confident in the existing instructions
04:02:04 <ais523> the spec should be final atm (apart from possibly the preprocessor but that doesn't change computational class)
04:10:03 <oerjan> ais523: stasoid has started expanding the polyglot again, at ferocious speed
04:11:52 <ais523> that's ridiculous, but amazing
04:11:59 <ais523> for anyone who hasn't seen it, oerjan is talking about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/102370/add-a-language-to-a-polyglot
04:12:11 <esowiki> [[$ $]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59048 * Cortex * (+813) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:$_$}} {{WIP}} '''$_$''' (pronounced ''soos'') is an esolang by [[User:Cortex|]] where strings of a certain character are commands. == Constants == {| class="wik..."
04:12:25 <ais523> a polyglot so ridiculous that it just ended up being called "the polyglot"
04:16:48 <ais523> I got massively downvoted on global SE meta for pointing out that there's an instance of a person getting a silver tag badge off a single question
04:16:57 <ais523> because apparently they thought PPCG shouldn't count
04:17:05 <ais523> (stasoid, off the polyglot)
04:21:36 <salpynx> amazing, I found another unicode based esolang, A-gram, to add to my list of non-Latin charset esolangs, and the last entry is in Nikud, for which I added a page on the wiki for recently
04:22:20 <ais523> most modern golfing languages use their own set of 256 arbitrary characters (that either fit their commands well, or that are easy to type)
04:22:35 <ais523> they typically contain all of printable ASCII though, so I'm not sure that counts
04:26:08 <ais523> re primes-in-NL, a simpler problem is if division (or modulo) is in NL
04:26:27 <ais523> multiplication is, I think (in fact, it's in L)
04:31:53 <oerjan> division is too, but that's a major theorem
04:33:09 <ais523> this is what's so weird about L and NL, "addition is easy, subtraction is easy, multiplication is easy, division is so difficult it's a major theorem that it's even possible"
04:33:15 <ais523> and that's why it makes a good esolang
04:33:33 <oerjan> multiplication of a _list_ of numbers is as hard as division
04:35:28 <salpynx> Trivially appending or adding 'ιιθθχθιιιιιιιιιιιιιιιιυς' to the polyglot in a way that doesn't break anything else would output 241 in my esolang ΙΧΘΥΣ...
04:35:58 <oerjan> the main trick in the proof is finding a way to compare numbers in "list of == m_i (mod p_i) form"
04:36:48 <oerjan> once you have that, you can do arithmetic in this form, and then convert it to a normal base
04:37:26 <oerjan> *"list of == m_i (mod p_i) restrictions" form
04:38:01 <ais523> salpynx: those are rarely used characters, there's probably somewhere safe to put it
04:38:27 <ais523> there are many points in the polyglot that are only parsed by languages which parse everything, and such languages typically ignore characters they don't understand
04:38:43 <ais523> try putting it in with the emojis, for example
04:39:17 <ais523> OTOH, verifying the polyglot still works can be hard, we have a verifier on Try It Online that can do much of the work but I don't think it does everything
04:40:57 <salpynx> Yeah, I'm not confident I'd be testing it sufficiently.
04:41:55 <ais523> we used to have a chatroom specifically for this but it got frozen for lack of use
04:41:58 <oerjan> i've been helping stasoid with some haskell variants but i left the testing to em
04:42:27 <salpynx> I thought I could get another easy entry with my Runic language, but it can't output anything that's not runes either... I made a point of added that as a feature :)
04:44:40 <ais523> you're reminding me of the HELL0 W0RLD! program in Radixal!!!! ("(Yes, this means that although arbitrary codepoints can be input, it's not possible to output arbitrary codepoints; programmers are encouraged to find similar-looking codepoints that can be output and use them instead.)")
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06:18:14 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59049&oldid=59048 * Cortex * (+1597)
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07:50:56 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59050&oldid=58948 * Cortex * (-191)
07:51:45 <esowiki> [[DoEverything();]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59051&oldid=58415 * Cortex * (+144)
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08:26:12 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59053&oldid=59052 * Cortex * (+124)
08:39:00 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59054&oldid=56825 * Cortex * (+22)
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09:39:03 <b_jonas> composite testing in P => yeah, I remember that, it was in my lifetime. people kept amending their textbooks that used to give composite testing as an example for something for which we knew a randomized polytime algorithm even in the stronger sense but not a deterministic one.
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09:39:25 <b_jonas> ais523 downvoted on main meta => that's normal. lots of things get surprisingly downvoted on main meta.
09:39:57 <b_jonas> stasoid expanding the polyglot => yeah. also bountied it by the way, to encourage company.
09:47:39 <b_jonas> rhetorical question. back when I was young, I asked a friend for a simple way to write a polyglot program that was definitely valid in both C and C++, but could distinguish whether it was compiled by C or C++, but _without_ using the difference in the type of character literals (like '0')
09:48:11 <b_jonas> he gave me an answer, but that answer was more complicated than just sizeof(0<1)
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09:48:50 <b_jonas> the question is, since this was well after C++03, and we've both read Strostroup's book for the C++03 edition, how the heck did we not know that 0<1 was a bool in C++?
09:48:59 <b_jonas> I mean, how did we both miss such a simple fact?
09:49:12 <Taneb> What's sizeof(bool)?
09:49:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: 1 in most implementations, though it could be 4
09:49:45 <b_jonas> it's implementation-defined
09:49:59 <Taneb> Are there implementations allowed where sizeof(bool) == sizeof(int)?
09:50:53 <b_jonas> Taneb: there could be, according to the standard. I think there might actually be ones, but I'm not sure.
09:51:09 <b_jonas> it comes up on RISC CPUs that can't address bytes in the memory
09:51:37 <Taneb> So, sizeof(0<1) may fail to distinguish
09:51:48 <b_jonas> but those are typically old RISC CPUs, so it's not clear if there are C++ compilers for them
09:52:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: yeah. I wonder if there's an easy way to always distinguish that works for this polyglot
09:52:21 <Taneb> Behaviour of auto?
09:52:24 <b_jonas> as in, it's easy to distinguish just in C++ with overloaded functions, or just in C11
09:52:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: this was back in C++03, C++11 auto didn't yet exist
09:52:57 <b_jonas> or... maybe it did but it was in its infancy and not yet in compilers we had
09:53:12 <b_jonas> this was probably around 2007 or so
09:54:12 <b_jonas> I think I missed the type difference because I didn't expect that strostroup would change such a basic fact of C. I mean, how _dares_ he?
09:54:34 <b_jonas> mind you, it doesn't actually cause incompatibility in practice, but still
09:56:24 <Luciole> hm, can you design something that relies on the difference in `NULL` in C and C++?
09:57:29 <b_jonas> Luciole: perhaps... I don't know. you have to be careful because how null pointers work at compile time keeps getting changed even between C versions and between C++ versions
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09:59:04 <Taneb> NULL could be the same in both before C++11
09:59:50 <Taneb> Or... maybe it's more subtle than that
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10:01:11 <b_jonas> and you have to mind the other differences between C and C++ pointers at compile time: in C you can implicit convert a (void *) to any pointer freely, and implicit convert a pointer to an integer with a warning, or something like that, whereas in C++ both are errors
10:01:16 <b_jonas> I don't recall all the details
10:01:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: nope, it was effectively 0 in C but (void *)0 in C++... perhaps not definitely those expressions, but that's the gist, they're different types
10:02:17 <b_jonas> which is why you can't put an uncasted NULL into an execl or other vararg call and expect it to pass a pointer
10:03:57 <Taneb> b_jonas: I'm not convinced that's true (looking at cppreference.com)
10:06:40 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's not true in the sense that you still can't do it in C++ in theory, because it's the wrong type of pointer
10:06:49 <b_jonas> (void *) versus the expected (char *)
10:07:25 <b_jonas> and in practice it Just Works in C because an int 0 will be seen as a null pointer by the actual compiled vararg function on typical machines
10:07:59 <Taneb> I mean, I'm not convinced it's true that they were effectively different
10:09:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm... maybe I remember this wrong. I don't know.
10:10:10 <Taneb> I'm looking at https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/types/NULL and https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/NULL as my sources
10:11:46 <b_jonas> Taneb: apparently it's backwards from what I said
10:11:56 <b_jonas> it was (void *) in C but int in C++
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10:19:04 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59055&oldid=59038 * Maxim228 * (+1408)
10:24:04 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59056&oldid=59053 * Cortex * (+638)
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10:37:09 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59057&oldid=59055 * Maxim228 * (-229)
10:47:50 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59058&oldid=59057 * Maxim228 * (+0)
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11:16:21 <b_jonas> "Im Krapfenwaldl" by Johann Strauss would work well as a monophonic tune, even from just a beeper. It should be used as background music for early levels of a video game. Only... some people hate the Strauss family's music, so the game would need a setting to mute them, plus an allergy warning on the packaging.
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16:21:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Maxim228]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59059 * Maxim228 * (+11) Created page with "Hey,wassup?"
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18:50:10 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59060&oldid=57127 * BMO * (-15)
18:50:52 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59061&oldid=58525 * BMO * (+53)
18:51:34 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59062&oldid=58867 * Areallycoolusername * (+285)
18:52:30 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59063&oldid=59062 * Areallycoolusername * (+14) /* P0pCrn */
18:55:51 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59064&oldid=59040 * Areallycoolusername * (+20)
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