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02:10:53 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59360 * Cortex * (+1845) Created page with "'''Unified HQ9+''' is a language made by [[User:Cortex|]] to unify all HQ9+ variants. It includes commands from just about every HQ9+ variant [[User:Cortex|Quine]] could find,..."
02:11:13 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59361&oldid=59360 * Cortex * (-4)
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02:47:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59364&oldid=59319 * Esofabrv * (+177) /* Introductions */
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03:01:39 <imode> cellular automata on complete graphs correspond directly to something like multiset rewriting or counter machines.
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04:24:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59367&oldid=47089 * Cortex * (+38)
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05:48:56 <imode> there are two ways to define a cellular automaton to me: one that specifies rewrite rules for different neighborhoods over some kind of topology, and one that defines these neighborhoods without mentioning any specific spatial arrangement of cell states.
05:49:45 <imode> it's the difference between saying "This cell is in state 1 if the north cell is in state 0, the south cell is in state 1, the east cell is in state 0, and the west cell is in state 1" and "This cell is in state 1 if at least 2 of its neighbors are in state 1."
05:51:25 <imode> there are areas where these two styles of definition break down. one in particular is cellular automata defined over complete graphs. the idea of rewrite rules breaks down because the neighborhood for a given cell in a complete graph is the rest of the graph, i.e every other node.
05:51:59 <imode> the ruleset would be _giant_ for even moderately sized complete graphs.
05:52:51 <imode> but these problems go away if you use the other definition method. if you do that, the entire system is reduced to something like multiset rewriting, or counter automata.
05:54:15 <imode> your ruleset is reduced to "how many of my neighbors are in these states", vs. "is anybody near me in these specific positions in this state."
05:56:35 <imode> I start pondering what's more "fundamental" at this point. if we assume a totally connected neighborhood, we throw out any assumption of any "place" in space being further than any other place: anywhere's just one hop away, no matter what.
05:58:09 <imode> if you arrive at multiset rewriting/counter automata just by a reduction (or rather, explosion) of a traditional cellular automaton, there should be something to that.
06:00:27 <imode> petri nets seem to be calling out to me.
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07:50:36 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59368&oldid=59366 * Cortex * (+6)
07:50:56 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59369&oldid=59368 * Cortex * (+1) /* Hello, World! */
08:07:33 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59370&oldid=59369 * Cortex * (+407)
08:13:31 <zzo38> About "Unwinnable by Design" on the All The Tropes wiki (which mentions zarf's cruelty scale), for "Paranoia" it mentions "even if the GM can't think of a way to succeed, throw it at them anyway, they might come up with something"; I think it is a good idea (not only for Paranoia, but for other systems too). Otherwise, the game is too easy, isn't it?
08:17:31 <HackEso> We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
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08:46:23 <lambdabot> ENVA 220820Z 09005KT CAVOK M12/M14 Q1006 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 14011KT
09:20:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 220850Z VRB01KT CAVOK M04/M09 Q1012 R08/19//95 NOSIG
09:24:38 <lambdabot> KOAK 220853Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 09/04 A3034 RMK AO2 SLP272 T00940044 51008
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09:37:54 <oerjan> if durkon hasn't had proper beer for 20 years he should be careful with it...
09:39:12 <oerjan> (although there'll be plenty of humor opportunities if he's not)
09:41:11 <myname> i should look at what the hell these meta ourputs mean sometime
09:50:41 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
09:59:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59371&oldid=59367 * Oerjan * (+1) WARNING: This formatting is broken.
10:00:40 <myname> yet another tanebvention. okay
10:02:29 <Taneb> myname: it's really getting out of hand I'm afraid
10:06:27 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, you invented METAR?
10:06:51 <Taneb> shachaf: it would seem so!
10:07:11 <oerjan> @tell imode The second kind of CA you mention is called "totalistic" iirc.
10:07:21 <myname> who doesn't remember the big inventors. edison, newton, tesla, taneb, ...
10:11:47 <oerjan> @tell imode for two-valued cells, anyway, there might be more than one way to define it if there are more values.
10:13:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: 2019 IOCCC ends March 15th -- http://www.ioccc.org/2019/rules.txt | Welcome to the international corncob for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
10:13:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure news items should be first if anyone's going to see them
10:38:31 <shachaf> topics are written, never read hth
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11:30:32 <esowiki> [[User:Weirdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59372&oldid=58984 * Weirdlang * (+5)
11:59:06 <Taneb> If you encode your data into folds in one direction, you could use a shredder as a photocopier
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12:10:27 <wob_jonas> myname: yeah, they're in a bit of a cryptic format with lots of extensions and freedom in it. I believe the "09005KT" means wind from the direction of 90 degrees (East), with speed of 05 knots, both numbers in decimal;
12:11:12 <Taneb> My problem with metar is I can never remember my nearest airport's IATA code
12:11:19 <myname> i have to look at cryptic commands from some GDS recently, those are as horrible
12:11:22 <wob_jonas> NOSIG means something about good visibility in visible light spectrum and lack of certain kinds of clouds, Q1012 is barometric pressure,
12:11:31 <lambdabot> EGSC 221150Z 26009KT 9999 FEW030 05/00 Q1001
12:11:55 <lambdabot> LHBP 221200Z 06005KT 020V110 7000 SCT040 BKN120 M03/M06 Q1014 NOSIG
12:12:13 <myname> i thought airports are three-lettered?
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12:12:21 <Taneb> myname: that's a different code
12:12:33 <Taneb> Although I had the names backwards
12:12:39 <Taneb> IATA is 3 letters, ICAO is 4
12:12:47 <wob_jonas> I mean, the "Q1012" means that the equivalent barometric pressure at sea level is 101200 Pa,
12:13:50 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICAO_airport_code#ICAO_codes_vs._IATA_codes
12:13:56 <wob_jonas> the "M03/" is the temperature, the "221200Z" is an incomplete timestamp of the observation meaning ---22T12:00 UTC, with the year and month unspecified but hopefully close to the current date
12:14:27 <wob_jonas> I mean "M03/" is air temperature of -03 deg C
12:15:18 <wob_jonas> and "/M06" means the dew point (the temperature at which the air couldn't hold all the water it has in gas form) is -06 degrees C
12:15:28 <wob_jonas> the "LHBP" at the start is the location of course
12:15:47 <wob_jonas> there are some other variable parts of the metar too, but I don't really know how they work
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12:23:24 <wob_jonas> apparently the "SCT040 BKN210" is also about the clouds
12:24:05 <wob_jonas> "020V110" is additional info about the wind
12:25:35 <fizzie> NOSIG is just "NO SIGnificant changes expected in the near term"
12:25:54 <wob_jonas> and which code says that it's not raining?
12:26:05 <fizzie> The lack of "RA" or "SN" anywhere.
12:26:48 <fizzie> (It can also be -RA or +RA for little rain or heavy rain, respectively.)
12:26:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 221220Z AUTO 27008KT 9999 NCD 06/02 Q1002 NOSIG
12:27:05 <fizzie> Heathrow METARs are always so short.
12:27:15 <fizzie> (But at least it's a nice day.)
12:27:38 <Taneb> What does the 9999 mean?
12:27:39 <lambdabot> EFHK 221220Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW047 SCT200 M18/M19 Q1014 NOSIG
12:27:44 <myname> does that command also work with iata codes?
12:27:54 <fizzie> Taneb: That's the visibility thing, yes.
12:27:55 <Taneb> myname: no, there's not always a nice correspondence
12:28:13 <fizzie> myname: You can look up the corresponding ICAO code with `iata though.
12:28:16 <HackEso> Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK)
12:28:27 <HackEso> Berlin Brandenburg Willy Brandt (BER, EDDB)
12:28:38 <Taneb> I don't know either code for Cambridge
12:28:47 <lambdabot> EDDB 221220Z 17006KT CAVOK M00/M05 Q1012 NOSIG
12:28:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, `airport searches all the fields, including the name.
12:28:54 <HackEso> Cambridge Bay (YCB, CYCB) \ Cambridge (CBG, EGSC) \ Cambridge Municipal Airport (CDI, ?)
12:29:11 <fizzie> Although that's quite a few steps to go for your weather.
12:29:11 <Taneb> Cambridge is an international airport with no flights
12:33:17 <wob_jonas> also, I should buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer for home. I'll have some difficulty to place the outdoor sensor properly, but it'll still be better than nothing.
12:35:02 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is there a command that takes the IATA code as input and tells the timezone used for that airport in commercial passenger airport tickets?
12:35:34 <wob_jonas> or a database of such timezone assignments external to HackEso somewherE?
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12:49:44 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas The share/airports.dat file used by `airport and friends -- from https://openflights.org/data.html -- has the timezone in the 10th column, though the HackEso commands don't use it at the moment.
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12:56:21 <wob_jonas> "Note: Rules for daylight savings time change from year to year and from country to country. The current data is an approximation for 2009, built on a country level. Most airports in DST-less regions in countries that generally observe DST (eg. AL, HI in the USA, NT, QL in Australia, parts of Canada) are marked incorrectly." hmm
12:56:27 <wob_jonas> so basically they don't really know for sure either
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13:20:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3d 3h 30m 29s ago: i've assumed Areallycoolusername was A almost from the start, but lately e's putting in so much effort to use both while not confusing them that i was starting to
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13:30:25 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59373&oldid=58810 * Ais523 non-admin * (-25) not output only, it has input
13:35:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unified HQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59374 * Ais523 non-admin * (+832) how to HQ9++
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14:09:39 <wob_jonas> Hehe, I just found a list I made in 2007, when M:tG only had five 2/2 vanilla creature cards for 1G (counting by different English names), and five 3/3 vanilla creature cards for 3R. Now it has eight of each.
14:16:23 <wob_jonas> Admittedly one of the three new 2/2 vanillas for 1G is an elf, which could perhaps be more useful than yet another bear.
14:17:09 <wob_jonas> I probably still wouldn't use it, beacuse Elvish Warrior is just so much more useful, and there isn't a lack of good small elves.
14:17:42 <wob_jonas> Still, it's at least more interesting than the bears.
14:20:56 <wob_jonas> The five vanilla bears are because three of them come from Portal and Ice Age, which didn't have reprints for historical reasons, and then they made Runeclaw Bear for a core set with the official excuse that they wanted all creatures to have fantasy names, not the name of real animals.
14:33:05 <esowiki> [[Iterating quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59375&oldid=59354 * Ais523 non-admin * (+3667) some advice on constructing these (and why they're less impressive than they look)
14:34:25 <esowiki> [[Iterating quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59376&oldid=59375 * Ais523 non-admin * (+1) /* Constructing an iterating quine */ grammar
14:40:20 <wob_jonas> wow, I inspired ais to write an article
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17:04:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm fed up of people thinking that iterating quines are more impressive than normal quines
17:07:31 <Taneb> ais523: they're exactly as hard but you need to know two languages
17:08:33 <Taneb> So, I guess they're marginally more impressive?
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17:19:44 <int-e> Taneb: they may actually be easier (A Perl -> Brainfuck -> Perl quine is easier than a Brainfuck quine, since one can use a trivial string -> brainfuck converter rather than brainfuck code that somehow replicates its own data section)
17:20:12 <Taneb> int-e: but harder than a perl quine
17:20:27 <Taneb> Because you need to know enough brainfuck or string to brainfuck converters
17:20:40 <Taneb> So it's slightly harder than the easiest language
17:20:58 <Taneb> Or at least the "seed" language
17:21:01 <int-e> yeah, that was my point, basically
17:21:04 <Taneb> But not enough to really be worth it
17:23:46 <int-e> that said I find the 100+ language one impressive... not in principle, but the fact that it fits into 16kb.
17:24:08 <int-e> (though I suspect that some of the intermediate programs are much larger.
17:24:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fuckfukc * New user account
17:25:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59377&oldid=59364 * Fuckfukc * (+212) /* Introductions */
17:27:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59378&oldid=59341 * Fuckfukc * (-38308) Replaced content with "this is a brainfuck clone so it doesnt deserve a page"
17:33:45 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59379&oldid=59378 * Int-e * (+38308) Undo revision 59378 by [[Special:Contributions/Fuckfukc|Fuckfukc]] ([[User talk:Fuckfukc|talk]]) ... this is the original, not a clone.
17:34:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FuckfukcFuckfukc * New user account
17:36:07 <int-e> "hi, im very interested in esolangs and have created many turing complete simple esolangs, all tape based with 8 instructions" <-- this is a cute introduction though ...
17:37:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59380&oldid=59377 * FuckfukcFuckfukc * (+1356)
17:37:48 <esowiki> [[User:Int-e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59381&oldid=44426 * Int-e * (+14) lower profile
17:37:59 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59382&oldid=56043 * FuckfukcFuckfukc * (-4414) Replaced content with "An '''esoteric programming language''' (ess-oh-terr-ick), or '''esolang''', is a tape based lang with 8 insturctoins. FffffffFfffff an example of this is fortnite"
17:39:04 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59383&oldid=59382 * Int-e * (+4414) Undo revision 59382 by [[Special:Contributions/FuckfukcFuckfukc|FuckfukcFuckfukc]] ([[User talk:FuckfukcFuckfukc|talk]]) undo vandalism
17:39:57 <int-e> ais523: this may be worthy of your attention (or possibly fizzie's of the people I can see around)
17:40:03 <ais523> int-e: I'm already on it
17:40:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:FuckfukcFuckfukc]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages
17:40:40 <ais523> almost blocked you by mistake, the buttons to block the person who made the original edit and the person who made the revert are right next to each other
17:41:00 <int-e> Hah. But I think I'd survive that :)
17:41:41 <int-e> ais523: note that they have two users
17:43:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Fuckfukc]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): alternate account of blocked [[User:FuckfukcFuckfukc]]
17:43:36 <ais523> int-e: was checking it was only two (but as far as I can tell, it is)
17:44:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59384&oldid=59380 * Ais523 * (-1356) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/FuckfukcFuckfukc|FuckfukcFuckfukc]] ([[User talk:FuckfukcFuckfukc|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Fuckfukc|Fuckfukc]]
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17:47:52 <ais523> (by "right next to" I mean on opposite sides of the screen in the same position, so that they're mentally next to each other rather than physically next to each other)
17:48:27 <int-e> Yay for bad UI design.
17:48:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I understand. the impressive part might be installing interpreters for all those 120 or so languages. they don't seem to be chosen in such a way as to be easy to install interpreters, eg. they aren't esolangs with a 2K long reference interpreter in perl and nothing else.
17:49:03 <b_jonas> but sure, I know the quines themselves aren't hard to construct
17:49:14 <ais523> TIO is more impressive on that basis
17:50:33 <int-e> Oh, there is a malbolge quine.
17:50:48 <ais523> b_jonas: https://tio.run/
17:51:10 <ais523> it has links with the esolang community among a few different axes
17:51:21 <b_jonas> oh, that online interpreter
17:52:24 <int-e> (I suppose I knew about the Malbolge prime once upon a time, but I had forgotten. The connection to the discussion above is that a Brainfuck->Malbolge->Brainfuck cyclic quine would be far less impressive.)
17:53:00 <HackEso> The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible".
17:53:13 <ais523> does the password of the month actually do anything?
17:53:29 <int-e> . o O ( The primes of the year are 3 and 673. )
17:53:45 <int-e> ais523: it's usually changed once per month by somebody...
17:53:55 <int-e> or do you mean this particular one?
17:54:04 <b_jonas> ais523: not as far as I know. I was wondering if there's a joke language where programs only work if they contain a current or recent password of the month in the source code, as a parody to requiring a monthly license to run the program.
17:54:06 <int-e> b_jonas set it, I think.
17:54:09 <ais523> int-e: I mean, does it have any use? despite changing once per month
17:54:26 <ais523> I was wondering if it was some sort of CAPTCHA to something
17:54:27 <int-e> ais523: if you're ever struggling to find a password...
17:54:44 <int-e> ...you can find one here that you should definitely not use.
17:54:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I've considered creating an esolang whose specification requires sending me money in order to run programs (if you didn't do so, the programs would still work, you'd just be violating the specification)
17:55:00 <ais523> as a parody of paid/commercial languages
17:55:16 <int-e> ais523: So, no, there's no real purpose.
17:55:32 <int-e> Beyond a little entertainment, obviously.
17:56:04 <int-e> ais523: isn't that called the Ethereum VM? :P
17:56:30 <ais523> well, in Ethereum there's an actual practical reason for paying for cycles
17:56:40 <b_jonas> the K programming language has a license where if you buy a K license, then you're allowed to distribute K programs with the K interpreter executable bundled with it (they provide some sort of tool for that I assume), but only if the program doesn't expose the K interpreter itself in a form usable to the users
17:56:46 <ais523> (I think I noted a while ago that Ethereum has become the world's biggest nomic, and most successful codenomic)
17:57:11 <b_jonas> the tricky part in this is that K is an essentially interpreted language, so it's easy to write a program that accidentally exposes the K interpreter
17:57:28 <b_jonas> you actually have to be careful if you want to write a program that doesn't expose it, in a security way, and the K language doesn't help you in this
17:57:40 <b_jonas> and I wonder, is it possible to make an esolang that has even more of this property,
17:57:49 <int-e> . o O ( you're still paying for running code that serves no real purpose </sarcasm> )
17:58:05 <b_jonas> that is, one where it's hard to write programs that can't be used as a complete interpreter for the language, but for some interesting reason,
17:58:13 <int-e> (whom am I kidding...) <sarcasm>
17:58:29 <b_jonas> not a trivial reason like how metafont doesn't have a primitive to parse an integer, and Knuth recommends that you use the eval primitive to do that
17:59:45 <b_jonas> and yes, I should write that quine suite thing for the PCG challenge too...
17:59:45 <int-e> b_jonas: so you need plausible deniability if you do expose the interpreter?
17:59:47 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to write a reverse Muriel, somehow? a language where instead of needing to quine for control flow, you need to write a self-interpreter for control flow?
17:59:56 <ais523> that implies a very strange memory model, some sort of streaming system
17:59:58 <int-e> . o O ( deniable plausibility )
18:00:15 <ais523> my guess is no but I'm going to think about it, because if the answer is yes it'd be really interesting
18:00:40 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, the whole thing seems pointless for _distributing executables_, as opposed to, say, running an interactive service on the internet that works with untrusted input
18:01:37 <b_jonas> ais523: huh? isn't /// the language where you need to write a quine to get control flow?
18:01:54 <ais523> b_jonas: Muriel was the original, I think
18:02:03 <ais523> but quite a few languages have that property
18:02:13 <ais523> (Underload is in a weird space, whether it has that property or not depends on how you interpret the spec)
18:02:16 <b_jonas> and Endo's DNA too, only that one is also designed to make it very easy to write a quine
18:08:16 <b_jonas> ah I see, so Muriel has a built-in quotemeta operator, just like Endo DNA, to make it easier to write a quine, unlike ///
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19:20:43 <orin> oh that reminds me of the theoretical problem I saw: imagne a programming language that only has '' qoutes
19:21:09 <orin> if you only have '' tpye quotes it is impossible to output the ' character
19:22:34 <orin> (i guess you also have to have restrictions on manipulating characters, but it seems easy for a minimalistic language to accidentally have this restriction)
19:24:57 <b_jonas> orin: that depends on how the quotes work. in some languages like (at least some dialects of) SQL and pascal, two apostrophes inside a string means an apostrophe. in others, like BASIC, there's just no way to directly write the delimiter inside a string literal.
19:25:43 <ais523> orin: Underload can't output mismatched parentheses for this reason
19:25:46 <ais523> there's no Underload program that prints (
19:26:52 <b_jonas> mind you, some of those languages also don't allow you to put a newline in a string literal,
19:27:10 <b_jonas> and even perl doesn't allow you to put an unescaped crlf in a string literal, you have to use backslash escapes or some other construction for that
19:28:41 <b_jonas> it's a bit more complicated than that... the crlf gets translated to an lf before perl even parses the string literal, as if it read the source code in crlf mode (but *DATA in binary mode), but you can call eval directly to skip that step
19:29:13 <b_jonas> and the evaled code string can have a string literal with unescaped crlf in it
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22:03:11 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59385&oldid=59370 * Cortex * (-9) /* Examples */
22:06:46 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59386&oldid=59385 * Cortex * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
22:07:50 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59387&oldid=59386 * Cortex * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
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