00:15:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yesterday orin mentioned that he tried to do a git rebase, but git hung in some infinite loop or took too long. we don't know what he did wrong.
00:16:26 <ais523> using a version system where rebases are sometimes required :-P
00:17:55 <b_jonas> ais523: cherry-picks for rebases are useful IMO in a distributed version control system, because they allow me to use the vcs myself in any way I want in a private branch, and later clean up and publish it the way the leader of the project wants
00:18:17 <b_jonas> if I can't do that, I have to end up using two repositories of potentially two different vcses in some ugly way
00:18:44 <ais523> well, in Thicket (the VCS I'm planning, it's a more-practical version of Scapegoat), eveything is automatically rebased as far back in history as possible
00:18:47 <b_jonas> I don't do actual rebases, because changing branches that way is confusing to me, I simply create a branch with a new name
00:18:58 <ais523> so rebasing isn't a meaningful operation, as it would be a no-op
00:19:31 <b_jonas> ais523: um, but sometimes there are conflicts resolved manually
00:19:45 <b_jonas> so I can want to rebase a branch mostly automatically, but resolve some conflicts
00:19:57 <b_jonas> whether it's conflicts the vcs can detect or semantic ones that it can't detect
00:20:16 <ais523> you can add conflict resolutions manually if required
00:20:31 <b_jonas> heck, if you rebase everything as far as possible, it will mostly be semantic conflicts
00:20:49 <ais523> a good VCS would be able to detect semantic conflicts too, I think
00:21:02 <b_jonas> I don't really understand how "rebase as far as possible" means though
00:21:42 <moony__> ais523, well if it's moved as far back as possible
00:21:59 <moony__> what happens if the rebase gets moved so far back the text merges fine, but it doesnt compile
00:22:04 <ais523> b_jonas: so in Git, normally each commit is the parent of the one before
00:22:22 <ais523> but that's not normally what you actually want, because it adds a lot of false dependencies
00:22:36 <ais523> so ideally a VCS should parent each commit to the most recent commit that's actually needed for the new commit to work
00:22:55 <b_jonas> "the each commit is the parent of the one before" -- isn't that time travel?
00:23:29 <ais523> err, each's commits parent is the one before
00:23:40 <ais523> (although Git totally allows commits to be parented out of order)
00:24:00 <b_jonas> yeah, I know. it keeps the date when you cherry-pick a commit
00:24:23 <b_jonas> the problem is that you can't tell when anything was committed
00:24:36 <b_jonas> I like having commits have a parent as late as possible
00:24:45 <b_jonas> because then you have intermediate versions that are known to work and tested
00:24:51 <b_jonas> well, as much as you actually test them at least
00:25:03 <b_jonas> if you rebase stuff back, it gets impossible to get known working states, or even suspected working states
00:25:03 <ais523> b_jonas: see, I think git's big mistake here is confusing a patch/diff, and a snapshot/version
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00:25:08 <ais523> the two concepts should be separate
00:25:19 <ais523> you can record the known working states, but you should do so separately, rather than tying them to individual diffs
00:26:41 <b_jonas> right, but I like how the snapshot is the important concept, and I record snapshots primarily, as I do in svn
00:27:08 <ais523> I don't like that because it makes it impossible to take parts of a repository out of order
00:27:26 <ais523> if you cherry-pick from a repo, you can't subsequently merge that repo, without git attempting to apply some of the changes twice
00:27:28 <b_jonas> and the diffs between a snapshot and its parents come in only in order to not apply any diff twice when you merge two branches that share some diffs
00:27:45 <ais523> (git has a workaround for this, detecting duplicated patches and not applying them, but it's not a general-purpose one)
00:27:46 <b_jonas> you can't in git, but you can in svn
00:28:03 <b_jonas> because svn (starting from 1.7 or something) records which diffs have been merged on each file
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00:28:16 <ais523> b_jonas: that's the correct way to do it
00:28:30 <b_jonas> so in that respects, diffs are needed
00:29:11 <b_jonas> and they can be cherry-picked backwards or forwards, and if used correctly (which is sometimes hard), the individual diffs will keep their identity
00:29:50 <b_jonas> sadly this is what's hard to make work in the hypothetical extension I've been thinking, where I try to make a distributed vcs layer over svn
00:30:15 <b_jonas> because then you can have the same diff from a private branch come into the public repo as two separate identities
00:31:27 <b_jonas> even without a distributed vcs, the svn system isn't perfect, it probably can be improved
00:31:55 <b_jonas> and yes, maybe it should be improved in a direction where the diffs are more important
00:32:02 <b_jonas> which might be what hg is trying to do, I don't really understand
00:32:24 <b_jonas> hg is crazy because it apparently tries to have multiple paradigms, and it's not even clear to me if that's only for historical reasons
00:44:14 <b_jonas> I wonder who'll become the new high priest of The Dark One when Redcloak is killed in the seventh book of OOTS.
00:47:26 <ais523> Jirix, perhaps? but I doubt Redcloak will die permanently, given that the plot seems to require a 17th-level cleric of the Dark One alive
00:47:31 <ais523> it's possible that he dies and gets resurrected
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01:09:37 <b_jonas> ais523: Jirix is way over in Gobbotopia, though I guess Xykon can teleport and is interested in having a high priest of TDO
01:11:14 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess you're right, they'll have to actually cast a 9th level spell, so it's not so easy to just get a replacement
01:14:51 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure there's a deadline on that. as long as they can even get TDO to talk to the other gods, and the new goblin leader not want to use the Dark One's original plan, the gods could wait
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01:22:58 <oerjan> <Taneb> Outlandish GG theory: this is Violetta <-- that is indeed pretty outlandish
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01:26:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> I think nominating your own language to be featured is rather poor form <-- i'm not sure A is Helen. maybe ais523 could check? (or already did.)
01:27:18 * oerjan pretty much assumes he'll regret not finishing the logs first
01:30:14 <oerjan> <orin> and it's my fault <-- on the bright side, sounds like you could make a nerdy children's song out of it
01:31:16 <oerjan> . o O ( nerdery rhyme? )
01:32:31 <oerjan> apparently someon made a book of those
01:34:38 <oerjan> <int-e> heh, oerjan was right in 2012 <-- unlike these days, i mean, about what?
01:35:00 <oerjan> (GG? in which case i may have forgotten exactly what i said.)
01:49:42 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think A is Helen, but if you think checking is a good idea, I'll check
01:50:54 <Sgeo> ais523, wait, how do we know that Redcloak will die?
01:50:54 <ais523> fwiw, I'd be reluctant to feature any language with an attempted TCness proof by A unless someone else had first corrected all the mistakes in it :-D
01:51:23 <ais523> Sgeo: we don't, b_jonas seems to think he will for some reason, I don't think there's much evidence for that though
01:55:57 <oerjan> i was wondering if b_jonas was spoilering
01:56:33 <oerjan> he does seem to have a habit of presenting theories of what will happen in fiction as fact
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01:57:21 <oerjan> ais523: ok if you don't think so. i didn't have a strong impression.
01:57:49 <oerjan> all agree on the TC proof, although i may be too lazy to do anything like that
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01:59:02 <oerjan> (i'd have to like read it...)
01:59:34 <oerjan> also i want redcloak to have a happy ending :(
02:00:15 <oerjan> i suppose that's not entirely in conflict with dying in that universe
02:01:30 <ais523> I tried to read it, and came out with no more understanding than when I'd started
02:03:16 <ais523> I like the way the proof starts by saying the language probably isn't TC
02:03:42 <ais523> hmm, maybe it isn't meant to be a TC proof? I think an earlier revision said it was but A may have changed eir mind?
02:04:13 <shachaf> This picture is TG: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/465999263059673088/553008336220717066/cmj2.jpg
02:05:43 <ais523> fwiw, this language looks fairly easy to write a TCness proof or disproof for
02:06:15 <fizzie> shachaf: I was browsing a maths journal at the university library's "new issues" desk once, and it had an indecipherable diagram right after the ToC, with the caption: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
02:06:41 <shachaf> Good thing this diagram makes perfect sense.
02:07:03 <ais523> AFAICT, every instruction it has can be implemented in 1-bit-wrapping BF, and all the instructions of 1-bit-wrapping BF exist in it, except that a) it has instructions to zero everything to the right of the tape and b) the only conditional checks whether everything to the left of the tape is 0
02:07:22 <ais523> that probably means the language is a PDA, unless there's some way to sneak data storage into it that I've missed
02:07:29 <fizzie> I'm sure the fascinating picture made sense as well, it just needed a little more context than that one.
02:10:09 <ais523> actually, hmm, you can do things like left-shift the accumulator by its own bitwise complement, which might give a method of storage
02:10:33 <ais523> also, the interpreter only has 32 bits of accumulator and 32 bits of storage, which is obviously sub-TC, but I'm guessing that's just an interpreter issue
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05:41:13 <orin> https://imgur.com/qUxvk2I
05:41:37 <orin> Stellaris just... naturally seems to cause stupid borders now
05:44:32 <orin> I think i'm finally getting the hang of the new new stellaris
06:36:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60311&oldid=60301 * Oerjan * (+38) unsigned
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09:10:38 <Taneb> oerjan: ah, I assumed because A's been editing the page for Bitch a lot
09:18:04 <shachaf> Aren't they the same person?
09:27:30 <int-e> oerjan: 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malbolge#Referenced_in_popular_culture
09:27:35 <oerjan> shachaf: Helen seems more competent to me
09:28:57 <oerjan> int-e: you mean someone admitted to copying it from wikipedia?
09:29:09 <int-e> (I picked up a DVD box a couple of days ago... it looks to me like some poor soul was tasked with manually copying the hello world program (no longer on the english wikipedia page either; it's been replaced there by a shorter one...) on a typewriter. First change is replacing a ~ by a -; later on there are more typos, and it got cut off at the end.
09:29:43 <int-e> oerjan: No, but it's clearly the same program that was on wikipedia at the time, modulo typos and cutoff. Just as you wrote.
09:30:46 <Taneb> So... why was there a malboge program in Elementary
09:31:34 <int-e> Because Holmes of course recognizes the programming language and then sends it off to an expert who can actually read it. They come back with some formula ("algorithm").
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09:42:24 * oerjan was secretly hoping it was about Girl Genius and that he'd somehow predicted what's currently happening :P
10:10:53 <int-e> oerjan: you may have but I'm usually not remembering much of what happened 6-7 years ago :)
10:12:00 <oerjan> hey i didn't i knew _what_ i had predicted :P
10:12:07 <oerjan> something with dimensions, i presume
10:13:33 <oerjan> int-e: you say that now, but when i read "oerjan was right in 2012" it sounded like you expected me to :)
10:13:40 <int-e> sure... this is looking increasingly like time travel may actually be going to have happened real soon now, meantime, years ago.
10:14:02 <int-e> oerjan: Yeah it was cruel bait. I admit it. I'm a bad person.
10:15:50 <int-e> (I don't really know when we "heard" all those stories about sightings of what's likely Lucrecia traveling through time.)
10:16:26 <oerjan> albia said when she met lucrezia way back, her mind was shattered. i wonder if she had too much contact with these madness-inducing dimensions
10:16:43 <int-e> But we finally meet somebody who's actually confused about time, so that's progress. What's up with Prede[sp?]'s Lantern though?
10:18:07 <oerjan> confused and confusing
10:19:17 <int-e> time travel and foreign languages will do that to you
10:20:31 <int-e> ("time travel" may not be happening; the idea of beings that span a large interval of time *and* space isn't exactly new)
10:22:18 <oerjan> i probably should start approaching bed ->
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10:22:44 <izabera> can i use 2/pi * atan(x) as my activator function?
10:22:47 <int-e> Hmmm. xkcd makes me confused about left and right... are we staring at a mirror? are we looking at the person from behind? is it a mirror image of a photograph taken from the front?
10:22:57 <Taneb> izabera: I'm not going to stop you
10:23:07 <izabera> yeah but is that a reasonable choice?
10:23:28 <shachaf> int-e: I think we're looking at the person from the front?
10:23:40 <shachaf> The blue rectangle is their right.
10:24:17 <int-e> shachaf: oh, I think I misattributed an arrow tip. :)
10:24:33 <Taneb> izabera: Wikipedia suggests that atan on its own works
10:24:53 <shachaf> Puzzle: Why do mirrors flip things left-right and not up-down?
10:25:03 <int-e> shachaf: yeah I love that one
10:25:08 <izabera> sure, i just wanted to scale it between -1 and 1
10:25:55 <rain1> is there a website to determine if my unicode implementation supports X and Y features? e.g. the new heiroglyphics features
10:26:23 <int-e> shachaf: thinking about it, how about using ceiling mirrors as a hint? :P
10:26:29 <rain1> Hard mode puzzle: How do i free the creatures from inside the mirror realm?
10:26:49 <shachaf> It sounds like a silly puzzle at first -- the obvious answer is that mirrors flip front-back -- but it took me surprisingly long to come up with an answer I was happy with.
10:27:38 <int-e> shachaf: I agree, that's the easy bit. You need psychology for explaining the idea that mirrors swap left and right.
10:28:02 <int-e> Or some silly geometry (orientation...)
10:29:38 <shachaf> Here's the visualization I was happy with:
10:30:22 <shachaf> Gnxr n genafcnerag cvrpr bs tynff naq jevgr fbzr grkg ba vg. Abj ubyq vg va sebag bs n zveebe. Obgu gur tynff grkg naq gur zveebe grkg ner ernqnoyr naq hasyvccrq. Abj cnvag bar fvqr bs gur tynff bcndhr -- lbh pna'g frr vg va gur zveebe nalzber. Gb frr vg va gur zveebe, lbh arrq gb ebgngr vg 180°, naq lbh pna pubbfr jurgure gb ebgngr vg yrsg-evtug be hc-qbja.
10:30:53 <shachaf> (If you haven't seen this puzzle before you should think about it first! It's TG.)
10:37:23 <int-e> I prefer the explanation that jura lbh frr lbhefrys va gur zveebe, naq lbh envfr lbhe yrsg unaq, gur zveebe vzntr envfrf gurve evtug unaq. Ol pubbfvat n crefba sbe ersrerapr, fjnccvat hc naq qbja orpbzrf n evqvphybhf bcgvba; fjnccvat yrsg naq evtug (ol n 180 qrterr ebgngvba-ersyrpgvbaf ner uneq gb cresbez ba culfvpny bowrpgf) vf gur angheny pubvpr jura gelvat gb gnxr gur zveebe vzntr'f cynpr.
10:51:41 <shachaf> Right, because you have horizontal symmetry.
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11:27:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60312&oldid=60311 * A * (-164) No reply! Revert edit.
11:28:17 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60313&oldid=60302 * A * (-612) Non-implemented algorithms will be useless.
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12:46:36 <wob_jonas> Sgeo: it's possible that he won't die. I'm only sure that Xykon has to be destroyed; whether Redcloak dies is still open.
12:48:48 <wob_jonas> But it's still worth to know who's next in succession, because Durkon has a mission that requires a high-level priest of the Dark One with knowledge of the Snarl, which pretty much means only the high priest with the Mantle because otherwise it's kept a secret,
12:49:23 <wob_jonas> so if the mission proves to be impossible with Redcloak, the order may be forced to kill or incapacitate Redcloak in hopes that the next high priest will be more reasonable.
12:50:16 <wob_jonas> However, it's also quite possible that Redcloak will simply go down in the fight to protect Xykon and the plan, or die when he takes revenge on the Order for destroying Xykon.
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12:53:05 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> it looks to me like some poor soul was tasked with manually copying the [Malbolge] hello world program" =>
12:54:20 <wob_jonas> the hungarian translations of the K&R book (ANSI edition) have lots of typos like that. they were published before the digital typesetting age, so it was typeset by a professional typesetter who was very diligent, but apparently doesn't know much about programming.
12:58:41 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> Puzzle: Why do mirrors flip things left-right and not up-down?" => I don't think they actually do that. The seem to flip things or not randomly in any direction. At least they always manage to confuse me whenever I try to do anything by observing my body through a mirror, \
12:59:01 <wob_jonas> it often takes multiple failed tries to figure out what direction something is in reality even if I can see it in the mirror.
13:00:47 <wob_jonas> That mirrors flip only left and right seems like the conventional wisdom that people repeat because they read it in books, without actually paying attention and experimenting with an actual mirror.
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15:04:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: in M:tG, apparently there are over a dozen rares with an ability similar to "you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type cast that spell". Half of them say "any type" and half "any color", which was a nonexistant distinction until OGW.
15:06:07 <wob_jonas> But the distinction is preserved from whatever was in fashion when the card was first printed, to keep the oracle text more guessable. That much makes sense. But then why didn't they make False Dawn work like its odd printed text with respect to devotion/chroma?
15:08:25 <HackEso> Dead Man's Chest? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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17:58:07 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60314&oldid=60306 * Orby * (+2959) Introducing unary operators.
17:59:51 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60315&oldid=60314 * Orby * (+16) /* Types */ fixing typo
18:01:32 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60316&oldid=60315 * Orby * (+0) /* Factor */
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18:32:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pidot * New user account
18:36:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60317&oldid=60280 * Pidot * (+186)
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18:45:59 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60318&oldid=60316 * Orby * (-96) /* Length */
18:47:47 <ski> shachaf : hm, what was similar to the mode thing i was talking about ? something about linear something ?
18:48:40 <ski> also, which linear Prolog thing ? Lolli ? Lygon ? Forum ? something else ?
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19:01:50 <shachaf> ski: I don't remember, what was the context?
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19:02:04 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60319&oldid=60318 * Orby * (+1034) Adding miscellaneous operators
19:06:02 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60320&oldid=60319 * Orby * (-80) /* Concatenate */
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19:16:00 <ski> i dunno. you mentioned it a little over a month ago (on this channel)
19:18:39 <ski> ("<shachaf> ski: Seems similar to the mode thing you were talking about the other day, though I think that's not linear.", then after two days "<shachaf> ski: What do you think of this linear Prolog thing?")
19:36:55 <shachaf> ski: Right, I think it's something weaker than preadditive.
19:37:56 <shachaf> Whatever this category is, if there is one.
19:38:28 <shachaf> It's like how Rel is a free module over a boolean semiring, or something like that.
19:43:03 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60321&oldid=60320 * Orby * (+290) Cleaning up.
19:43:38 <esowiki> [[Zahlen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60322&oldid=60321 * Orby * (-76) /* Concatenate */
19:54:00 <orin> is it unprofessional to call my new git branch "oren-hates-git"
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19:54:34 <orin> doing it anyway, I have good reason to
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19:57:35 <orin> I would like to use more advanced TTF features but there is scant documentation for the ttf hinting language
20:01:31 <b_jonas> orin: no, it's not unprofessional, as long as it's in a private repository, and you don't publish it under that name
20:02:35 <orin> it's a feature branch to replace the one that isn't working
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20:03:37 <orin> my pervious feature branch can't be rebased without hanging forever
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20:07:49 <orin> what language is git written in anyway?
20:10:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fmease * New user account
20:12:06 <orin> i'm wondering if my old feature branch was so borked it caused git to go into an infinite loop
20:12:33 <orin> I left it chugging for 24 hours before I decided it was doomed
20:16:14 <HackEso> Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
20:27:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60323&oldid=60317 * Fmease * (+289) /* Introductions */
20:28:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60324&oldid=60323 * Fmease * (-82) Fix my signature
20:48:42 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60325&oldid=60251 * Cortex * (+103) /* Cat */
20:52:33 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60326&oldid=60309 * Cortex * (+60)
20:56:47 <esowiki> [[ALLSCII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60327&oldid=60326 * Cortex * (+76)
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23:55:15 <oerjan> `learn Heiroglyphics are an ancient set of symbols used for writing last wills and testaments.
23:55:17 <HackEso> Learned 'heiroglyphic': Heiroglyphics are an ancient set of symbols used for writing last wills and testaments.
23:56:10 <shachaf> took me a while to figure that one out
23:56:37 <shachaf> i was expecting it to be a spoken pun rather than a written pun
23:56:42 <shachaf> despite being written rather than spoken
23:56:54 <HackEso> 1/2:lie//Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups. \ fternoon//Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners. \ `5//`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2. \ `learn//`learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is
23:56:57 <HackEso> 2/2:the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...] \ `hoat//`hoat: See `hoag
23:57:17 <HackEso> `spam <n> prints the nth output piece of the previous `1, `2, `4, `5, sport or spore command. n defaults to the next piece to display. Abbreviation: `n.
23:57:24 <HackEso> `n is an abbreviation for `spam.
23:57:29 <HackEso> `4 <cmd> is equivalent to `5 <cmd>, except that it only repeats 4 times. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `5.
23:57:36 <HackEso> `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
23:57:47 <HackEso> `2 <cmd> is equivalent to `1 <cmd>, except that it starts displaying the _second_ output piece. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `1.
23:57:53 <HackEso> `3 is the obvious generalization of `2 or `4, trying too hard to confuse everyone.