00:15:14 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting).
00:16:44 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:43:14 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
00:45:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:45:42 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
01:05:45 <zzo38> I thought of a similar kind of idea before, although with cards, that the user has to shuffle before inserting them into the computer, in order to implement randomness.
01:13:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:28:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EeEee * New user account
01:30:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60825&oldid=60819 * EeEee * (+47) /* Introductions */
01:31:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60826&oldid=60825 * EeEee * (+80) /* Introductions */
01:32:33 <zzo38> (I don't know whether or not such a thing has ever been done with computer cards.)
01:40:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
01:41:42 <esowiki> [[E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60827 * EeEee * (+3511) Created page with "'''E''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EeEee]]. E is a blatant ripoff of [[Chicken]], however the only available token is the letter 'E'. ==Command..."
01:46:20 <esowiki> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60828&oldid=60827 * EeEee * (+788)
02:07:52 <salpynx> Eodermdrome spec says "an interpreter can always choose the first, or the last, or a random command, or use any other method to determine which command runs, if more than one can run", so 'random' non determinism is not guaranteed
02:09:03 <salpynx> the two existing interpreters both choose the first matching rule, so to get random choice, the source code can be shuffled to simulate an interpreter that picks a random matching rule
02:10:28 <zzo38> salpynx: Yes, unless the method is using first command in sorted order, in which case that won't work.
02:10:32 <salpynx> zzo38: this is sort of like what you describe with random cards, but using existing non-deterministic speced languages with deterministic interpreters
02:11:28 <salpynx> ... I think and hope that is not the case with the specific Eodermdrome interpreters, but yes, good point
02:20:05 <salpynx> I was going to nominate Eodermdrome for featured language, but there aren't enough examples. I'm trying to create some more complex ones, but it is tricky.
02:22:18 <salpynx> It can sort of be used like a 2d rewriting language like Thue with distinct graphs joined in a 'string'. Multi-dimensional rewriting would be more interesting but harder, and further limited by the restricted graph alphabet of 26 chars
02:22:31 <oerjan> the 26 node limit is a bit cramped, i think
02:22:56 <salpynx> A similar graph rewriting lang without that limitation would have more potential, but still be difficult to program in
02:24:04 <oerjan> as for non-random non-determinism, i considered that when writing the implementation of Malbolge Unshackled.
02:24:09 <salpynx> oerjan: very much so, most of my passably ok ideas re eodermdrome fell over with the 26 char limit :)
02:24:41 <oerjan> it selects randomly, at program start, between a number of policies, some of which are random and some of which are not.
02:25:37 <oerjan> (the non-determinism is in when to increase the rotation width)
02:27:42 <oerjan> (i wanted to make it as unpredictably unhelpful as possible - you can neither predict it, nor use it as a reliable source of randomness)
02:27:59 <salpynx> oerjan: I have a set of graph symbols which I think can be used like Thue limited to 2 characters on each side of the replacement, possibly extended to 3 in some cases, but I need to pull it together to test properly.
02:28:56 <salpynx> i have been finding bugs in the python interpreter that I need to fix
02:30:08 <salpynx> oerjan: "unpredictably unhelpful as possible - you can neither predict it, nor use it as a reliable source of randomness" that's just mean! ;)
02:30:22 <oerjan> well it _is_ a malbolge dialect :P
02:37:08 <oerjan> it was also a bit of an exercise in "how do you force programmers _not_ to depend on implementation-dependent behavior? by making the implementation choose between all options!"
02:38:03 <oerjan> (or a big enough subset of them)
02:39:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alsfactory * New user account
02:41:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60829&oldid=60826 * Alsfactory * (+172) /* Introductions */
02:49:04 <salpynx> I'll check out that aspect of Malbolge Unshackled. I imagine writing something that tests the current rule set and terminates when it's not appropriate, with an external wrapper that reruns the code until the 'right' rules are in effect
03:35:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
03:56:45 -!- FreeFull has quit.
04:15:44 <zzo38> (With the MIXPC boot loader, if there are no additional data cards after the end of the program, you could shuffle all of the cards other than the first and last card and the program will still work as far as I can tell; only the first and last card must remain first and last. With Knuth's boot loader the second card also is fixed, but I think it also allows cards to otherwise be rearranged.)
06:15:40 <oren> What sort algoritm works best if you have a way to create a value at the midpoint between two values in O(1)
06:17:59 <zzo38> An algorithm for making what?
06:52:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:52:42 -!- tromp has joined.
07:32:12 -!- S_Gautam has joined.
08:43:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:13:26 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
09:16:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how does that work when you overwrite a memory word from multiple cards? are the values combined according to some commutative function like the NNIX loader does? because I think some MMIX assemblers will emit cards that overwrite an existing cell, to resolve some forward refs.
09:41:50 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
10:22:08 <wob_jonas> ah yes. I should've expected another april fool video from Matthias Wandel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6FpLBDOFs
11:29:33 -!- mnoop has changed nick to mniip.
11:43:57 -!- arseniiv has joined.
12:44:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:46:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
14:25:24 -!- Bob- has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:30:58 -!- bobby has joined.
14:53:59 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:08:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:10:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:18:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:46:28 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Ah, maybe that is true (for MIX, not MMIX), although the MIXPC assembler does not emit multiple cards for the same address. Knuth's assembler might, in which case shuffling the cards will prevent it from working.
15:49:14 <zzo38> (In a change to the MIXPC assembler that I have not copied to this computer yet, there is a command to punch a zero in the first character position of all cards other than the first and last card. This isn't useful on modern computers, but if you are putting them in actual cards, it might help if the cards have inadvertently been mixed up.)
15:51:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe it could be done a bit cheaper than I said, because we could require that, say, only one card writes a nonzero value into any one byte.
15:52:05 <wob_jonas> the assembler will probably satisfy that, and you can implement that easily in the loader if you start by zeroing out the memory (at least its majority, the part you're allowed to load into)
15:52:26 <wob_jonas> mind you, you have to be careful to handle signs properly
15:53:25 <wob_jonas> this part is easier on a modern computer, where the OS will zero any memory you map anyway, and you get group operations on words for cheap
15:53:52 <zzo38> With two bootloader cards that may be possible; Knuth's loader does not use the entire second card, so there is still some space available. My own bootloader (which uses a single card) has only one unused word.
15:54:33 <wob_jonas> usually you want to use addition modulo the word size, so that you can write a forward reference offset with a constant offset, which MIXAL and MMIXAL don't allow, but you may want it in more powerful assemblers
15:55:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm. so in that case, either you have to require the user to not arbitrarily shuffle the cards, or make the assembler more careful in what it outputs, which would increase the number of the cards,
15:56:41 <wob_jonas> or bootstrap a second loader, which would help anyway because you could encode data on the rest of the cards more efficiently then
16:03:25 <wob_jonas> Not that the original encoding is too bad, mind you
16:03:27 <zzo38> Some time ago I wanted to try to figure out how to make it so that the program will still load and work even if all of the cards (including the first and last one) are shuffled, but have not managed to succeed at it.
16:04:36 <wob_jonas> you know of the relevant IOCCC entry, right?
16:04:48 <wob_jonas> you know *about* the relevant IOCCC entry, right?
16:05:03 <zzo38> I do not remember.
16:06:10 <wob_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#2001_westley
16:06:48 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure you can do it on MIX if all cards can be shuffled. I guess it's possible if you can rely on that the one first card is kept first,
16:07:11 <wob_jonas> and even if not, you could require the first few cards to be kept first, in which case it's almost certainly possible, and that's not really a difficult requirement to keep
16:07:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for discussion of the occult, esoteric and paranormal | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:07:53 <wob_jonas> Another possiblity would be if you allowed any shuffle, but required the user to feed the pack through the reader twice
16:08:30 <HackEso> wob_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:08:43 <zzo38> Ah, yes it could require putting the cards twice.
16:09:40 <wob_jonas> also, oerjan, isn't it too late for this?
16:10:38 <oerjan> probably. but int-e said to edit the topic today hth
16:11:04 <oerjan> i'm not planning to make it a larger effort
16:13:17 <zzo38> The option to punch the zero in the first character position of each card other than the first and last helps to correct the order if they have been mixed up, since you could put something through the holes so that you can find the first and last card, and then it is not difficult to see which card is first and last (since they are very distinguishable).
16:13:24 <oerjan> (i was originally just thinking i'd finally remove the IOCCC mention)
16:14:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if you just want to make the first and last cards distinguishable, use cards with different colored paper, and make both of them constant among programs.
16:14:34 -!- Essadon has joined.
16:14:41 <zzo38> (I don't know if this way of using holes in computer cards have been done before or not)
16:15:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it has been done with some sort of cards, though I don't know if it's been done with hollerith cards in particular, or only cards specifically designed for this, with the holes on the edges
16:15:54 <wob_jonas> IIRC TAOCP vol 3 describes an example of the latter kind, with cards
16:16:20 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is a possibility, although currently the last card isn't constant (although it is possible to make it so, by putting the real start address elsewhere and jump there)
16:16:40 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have read that in TAOCP vol 3, and/or maybe other books too
16:16:42 <wob_jonas> currently it isn't, but if you can change the format then it can be
16:16:55 <wob_jonas> yes, I think I've seen it in at least one other book too
16:18:51 <zzo38> I mean even without changing the first card at all, it can still work the last one constant, but the last card would still be different for binary and decimal computers.
16:21:12 <wob_jonas> there's also the option to make a loader that loads the program from paper tape, even if the loader itself may be on a few punch cards
16:22:14 <zzo38> (An example of a MIXPC assembled deck can be found in the Deadfish article. However, the program should still run even on implementations other than MIXPC.)
16:22:29 <wob_jonas> if you don't allow nul characters within a line, then such a loader could be almost as small as the loader from card
16:22:53 <wob_jonas> or del characters or whatever they are that you use on 5-row tape
16:24:10 <wob_jonas> apparently 5-row tape only has the nul character, not the del character. I've no idea how you'd edit that before splicing.
16:24:19 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
16:46:20 -!- upline has changed nick to grumble.
17:10:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
17:17:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:21:20 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:08:55 -!- b_jonas has joined.
18:18:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: should the topic mention "supernatural" too?
18:32:31 <arseniiv> oh the last is not in dictionaries yet
18:33:24 <arseniiv> a strange asymmetry between orthodox and paradoxical
18:39:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60830&oldid=60829 * KerbalEngineer * (+213) /* Introductions */
18:39:52 <HackEso> olist 1160: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:40:01 <b_jonas> dude, this has been up for several hours, how have you not rang it in?
18:43:34 <esowiki> [[Chem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60831 * KerbalEngineer * (+0) Created blank page
18:44:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60832&oldid=60645 * KerbalEngineer * (+47)
18:46:04 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60833&oldid=60831 * KerbalEngineer * (+84)
18:47:47 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60834&oldid=60833 * KerbalEngineer * (+152)
18:56:28 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60835&oldid=60834 * KerbalEngineer * (+215)
19:00:59 <arseniiv> ah is today the day when one can submit a page about a natural language to the wiki?
19:01:24 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60836&oldid=60835 * KerbalEngineer * (+156)
19:01:46 <shachaf> My idea of an April 1st prank was to do a fake olist
19:01:49 <arseniiv> bad luck it is already april 2nd in here
19:01:53 -!- MDude has joined.
19:01:58 <shachaf> But what'shisname has preempted me.
19:02:35 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60837&oldid=60836 * KerbalEngineer * (+29)
19:05:55 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60838&oldid=60837 * KerbalEngineer * (+214)
19:07:02 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60839&oldid=60838 * KerbalEngineer * (-248)
19:07:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: someone already did that
19:07:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: they posted the forum topic on the forum as if there was a new olist
19:08:53 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60840&oldid=60839 * KerbalEngineer * (+171)
19:10:40 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60841&oldid=60840 * KerbalEngineer * (+110)
19:10:55 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60842&oldid=60841 * KerbalEngineer * (+1) /* Instructions */
19:11:39 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60843&oldid=60842 * KerbalEngineer * (-31)
19:11:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and apparently some traditions hold that april fools joke must be in the morning of --04-01 only
19:17:24 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:23:36 -!- quintopia has joined.
19:25:50 <int-e> the transcript of today's xkcd should be an interesting effort...
19:35:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
19:36:25 -!- Remavas has joined.
20:00:41 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:03:42 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60844&oldid=60843 * KerbalEngineer * (+28)
20:05:09 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60845&oldid=60844 * KerbalEngineer * (+72)
20:06:52 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60846&oldid=60845 * KerbalEngineer * (+183)
20:07:08 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60847&oldid=60846 * KerbalEngineer * (+13)
20:09:49 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60848&oldid=60847 * KerbalEngineer * (+151)
20:13:21 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60849&oldid=60848 * KerbalEngineer * (+309)
20:14:19 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60850&oldid=60849 * KerbalEngineer * (+523)
20:16:46 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60851&oldid=60850 * KerbalEngineer * (+1) /* Examples */
20:17:57 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60852&oldid=60851 * KerbalEngineer * (+485) /* Examples */
20:33:44 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60853&oldid=60852 * KerbalEngineer * (+2078)
20:36:52 <arseniiv> wow, a Water level Sunken temple in BIY is a great one. I hardly cracked it
20:37:14 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60854&oldid=60853 * KerbalEngineer * (+551)
20:40:56 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60855&oldid=60854 * KerbalEngineer * (+303)
20:41:39 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60856&oldid=60855 * KerbalEngineer * (+243)
20:42:33 -!- bobby has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:43:04 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60857&oldid=60856 * KerbalEngineer * (-1)
21:01:00 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK 2019 proceedings is now available at http://sigbovik.org/2019/proceedings.pdf
21:02:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you! Let’s take a look…
21:03:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it usually includes lots of fancy graphics
21:04:22 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60858&oldid=60857 * KerbalEngineer * (+184)
21:04:34 <b_jonas> confusingly, it's not linked from http://sigbovik.org/2019/
21:15:30 -!- Bob- has joined.
21:19:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:20:08 -!- tromp has joined.
21:24:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:35:05 <b_jonas> also, the video that tom7 promised in his blog entry is now out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TFDG-y-EHs
21:40:59 -!- tromp has joined.
22:14:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:21:23 -!- tromp has joined.
22:22:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:28:55 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:31:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:37:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:37:31 <arseniiv> oh, there’s a conlang article! :o
22:37:34 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:39:30 <b_jonas> and there's an article not written by tom7 that cites a past article by tom7 too
22:40:09 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: should the topic mention "supernatural" too? <-- i cannot do that, it's already Apr 2 here hth
22:41:05 <oerjan> although in retrospect i did feel it should have been a bit longer
22:44:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is invalid.
22:45:00 <int-e> . o O ( tomfoolery )
22:49:25 <oerjan> int-e: that's for last month
22:50:56 <int-e> But I don't have any idea I like.
22:51:26 <int-e> (I have standards. They may be low, but they exist. :P)
22:54:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: I take it that I shouldn't just concatenate four random English words, as xkcd suggests and as I've done a few months ago, right?
22:56:17 <arseniiv> MersenneTwisterDoesn'tEscalate
22:57:08 <asie> b_jonas: yes, Poland was among participants in this variant of the tradition IIRC
22:57:17 <asie> that is, at least a decade or so back, you were expected to reveal your ruses by noon
22:57:30 <asie> nowadays it's a bit more muddied due to international influence
23:06:11 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:11:17 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:15:13 -!- tromp has joined.
23:16:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:29:49 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting).