←2019-04-03 2019-04-04 2019-04-05→ ↑2019 ↑all
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17:36:23 <izabera> what if you take a language that's turing complete
17:36:33 <izabera> and make it a syntax error to write a program that produces a quine?
17:37:26 <LKoen> it would still be turing complete, I guess
17:38:02 <rain1> that's halting equivalent though
17:38:21 <rain1> so it would be impossible to implement the langugae
17:38:34 <izabera> i think it would be possible to write an interpreter for it
17:39:01 <rain1> i guess you could run the program and if it's equal to the source code discard and error, otherwise just print thath result out
17:39:31 <economicsbat> what's halting equivalent?
17:39:38 <izabera> economicsbat: compiling it
17:39:46 <rain1> not computable
17:39:49 <LKoen> rain1: how can it be halting-equivalent? a quine is a program that outputs its sourcecode then halts, right? once it's halted you can check whether it did a good job of printing its own code or not
17:40:00 <economicsbat> oh sorry, I mean "what does halting equivalent mean?"
17:40:10 <izabera> yeah but compilers need to check the code in advance
17:40:31 <economicsbat> also, I can just google this if you're busy
17:40:33 <rain1> LKoen: that's true but the trouble would be programs that have printed a prefix of their source code and then don't halt
17:40:46 <LKoen> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:40:51 <LKoen> okay
17:41:09 <izabera> so what are the requirements for a language to be able to write a quine in it?
17:41:44 <LKoen> economicsbat: "this problem is equivalent to the problem of deciding whether a given pair (Turing Machine, Input) is such that that turing machine would halt on that input"
17:41:53 <LKoen> for some value of equivalent
17:42:15 <rain1> turing complete implies you can write a quine (kleenes theorem), but there are lots of sub turing languages that can quine
17:42:35 <economicsbat> oh, OK! yeah, and a Turing machine is a computer
17:42:44 <izabera> sure, hq9+
17:43:03 <izabera> but still, i think my example is valid?
17:43:46 <oerjan> izabera: see our very well hidden wiki discussion on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
17:45:41 <oerjan> rain1: there are additional technical conditions because TC doesn't really say anything about freedom to output anything
17:46:31 <oerjan> (see that link)
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17:52:30 <esowiki> [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60899&oldid=60022 * Oerjan * (+124) /* How to write quines */ Link old "quineless" discussion which keeps coming up
17:57:26 <esowiki> [[Chromos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60900 * Areallycoolusername * (+1352) Created page with "[[Chromos]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It's based of of [[RNA]], except it uses chromosomes instead of..."
17:57:43 <esowiki> [[Chromos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60901&oldid=60900 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
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19:02:22 <b_jonas> Is there a video game that has multiple endings, one of them is called "true ending" (or "canon ending"), and one of them is called "best ending", and the two aren't the same?
19:04:30 <b_jonas> Suppose there's a middle-aged lady all whose husbands have passed away in suspicious circumstances, and she's inherited a lot of money from each of them. She asks your hand in marriage now. At least how many husbands does he have had to have to make you reject the proposal outright on that count?
19:05:06 <b_jonas> What if she admits to you that she has killed all her previous husbands for their money, but she also says that she doesn't want to kill you, she has enough money now.
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19:27:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't think the Nier/Drakengard collection of games quite matches your requirements (for one, I don't think anyone calls any of the endings "best"), but I think it might have had a case where a "canonical ending" (at least in the sense that some of the sequel material, not necessary a game, implies that's what happened) isn't the same as the "final ending" (as in, the hardest to get).
19:27:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's all explained in this handly simple timeline chart https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/drakengard/images/8/8b/DOD-NIER-timeline-20180404.png/revision/latest where the A/B/C/D/... markers are multiple endings.
19:31:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok. that looks complicated, and I know very little of those games.
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21:26:35 <zzo38_> I saw name generation mentioned in the logs; I used a program I wrote myself: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/namegen.js I have not tried pwgen and I don't know how well it work for that purpose
21:27:39 <rain1> o\how do i run this?
21:27:41 <rain1> if(e.code=="EPIPE") process.exit(0); else throw e;
21:27:43 <rain1> ^
21:27:45 <rain1> TypeError: Cannot read property '0' of undefined
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21:29:52 <zzo38_> I don't know why it results that error message; that code should only run if an error occurs.
21:30:14 <rain1> do i need to pass command line parameters
21:31:31 <zzo38_> Yes. Pass either a string consisting of the format described at the bottom, or use - and one of the presets defined above that (e.g. -altern or -fantasy). The second argument is optional and is how many names you want.
21:32:07 <rain1> great it works!
21:34:39 <fizzie> Looks like the error was from the [0] in `process.argv[2][0]` when no arguments were provided.
21:35:36 <zzo38_> Yes, that is probably where the error came from.
21:36:35 <fizzie> Good names though.
21:36:42 <fizzie> I like the insults.
21:38:01 <zzo38_> It is based on the RinkWorks but I wanted a local version of the program and they did not have one, so I tried to convert it into a local implementation even though I did not have their source code.
21:40:15 <zzo38_> Someone told me that two clocks per pixel in Digi-RGB results too many pins, and that it should be four or eight clock cycles per pixel. What do you think?
21:55:48 <arseniiv> a while ago I had written several text generators equally suited for sentences or singular words, but now I’m disappointed in either of them and plan to write another one, one day… Basically the idea is to enhance context-free grammars with probabilities and parameters (to make descriprions more compact in several cases);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> probabilities are added in a known way: what is an alternation in CFG, is a weighted choice in PCFG; also I was quite enthralled with taking quantifiers from CFG to “distribution quantifiers” in PCFG: to generate a<dist>, you generate a dist-distributed integer n and then generate (a a … a (n times)), where each a is independent (it would be boring if they were all the same);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> and I picked a handful of “simple enough” distributions that in some sense abbreviated simple PCFG patterns, including recursive (e. g. if X → <p> X a | <1−p> ε, then X realises as a concatenation of n a’s where n is geometrically distributed with parameter p (or something like p, it’s non-essential here));
21:55:48 <arseniiv> and used a quantifier-like notations for them, so X from the example would be expressible as a*<p>;
21:55:48 <arseniiv> I can also tell about what I mean by parameters but only if someone asks, as it’s already quite a wall of text; shortly speaking, nonterminal symbols allow to take arguments and be now defined by cases (these should be provably disjoint, or it wreaks the context-freeness and like) with simple pattern matching (a variable or a const symbol);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> so far, it is possible to calculate mean or even stddev and I think any higher moments of text generated by any expression, if only the grammar is correct enough, which is checkable too;
21:55:48 <arseniiv> further, one also can introduce (probabilistic) functions which take _text_ arguments instead of abstract symbols etc., but it could destroy our neat statistic analysis from above. I’m finished :o
22:06:26 <arseniiv> there, “<p1> e1 | … | <pn> en” stands for “pick e to be any one of e1 with weight w1, …, en with weight en and generate e”. To the time, I haven’t thought up something less clumsy, also weights are optional and default to 1 (if someone is interested to use this notation in its full glory; also I’d recommend to allow an optional “|” at the start to allow neat code, but note it demands forbidding to name the empty string by an empty
22:06:26 <arseniiv> expression, or the notation becomes ambiguous)
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23:13:27 <fizzie> `words --pokemon 20
23:13:28 <HackEso> hawott psyduck eleo typh noctina reuniclusle worm dodra licent smear yung escash hippowdon slugia fraxurkrow dusknoir tor wiggersian horseak herdier
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23:18:44 <fizzie> I've read some papers on unsupervised PCFG induction, think I was planning to use them for something, can't remember what.
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23:28:26 <arseniiv> fizzie: I have read only one paper about PCFG to understand how to make sure there is zero probability of non-terminating generation and something else (it’s also in link with if a naive formula for mean length is true), but that article saw PCFG primarily as a parsing tool, though it fortunately shares correctness criteria with PCFG a text generator. The last one’s probably viewed as not serious enough
23:33:26 <fizzie> Hmm, well. Managed to locate two papers on grammar induction in my home directory (Natural language grammar induction with a generative constituent-context model, Klein & Manning 2004; Automatic acquisition and efficient representation of syntactic structures, Solan et al. no-date-on-PDF) but actually neither of them generates a PCFG though they do cite papers that do.
23:35:05 <fizzie> I think parsing is what they usually get used for.
23:36:36 <fizzie> `words --pokemon --esolangs 20
23:36:37 <HackEso> keldorainfernants dhelio blimpole squil vile rant cute mor ntcm reshiel um-32 trig scor metal houndex.php kellspro stung bit back snub
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23:37:04 <fizzie> Ooh, "houndex.php".
23:40:19 <oerjan> <b_jonas> What if she admits to you that she has killed all her previous [...] <-- this sounds like a great scheme for getting bayesian rationalists to gain darwin awards
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