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01:05:47 <oerjan> <FireFly> 'forbunderes' also looks like plausibly real norwegian <-- it's not, but "tær" is
01:07:02 <int-e> tær xzf
01:12:14 <zzo38> Do you like NNTP?
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01:36:03 <oerjan> "forbundenes" is real, and "forbinderes" is at least hypothetically so
01:38:20 <oerjan> ...yeah, both are, although the former has about 10 times as many google hits.
01:38:28 <oerjan> (although some may be danish.)
01:40:12 <oerjan> actually danish spelling should be "forbundernes"
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02:08:14 <oerjan> <fizzie> kmc: `sled foo//bar is just "sed -i -e bar foo", it's just a convenience thing to avoid the issue where you do "sed -ie" and it makes a backup copy of the file "foo" named "fooe". <-- surely the main convenience is not having to escape things for the shell.
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02:11:28 <shachaf> maybe there should be a general don't-escape-thing-for-the-shell command
02:12:16 <shachaf> `foo sed -i file //s'x'y'
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02:34:44 <oerjan> <b_jonas> hmm, does codegolf se have any answers in Baba Is You yet? <-- doesn't look like it
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03:09:41 <oerjan> `grwp ^/
03:09:43 <HackEso> ops:/msg ChanServ access list #esoteric
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04:01:35 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
04:19:00 <shachaf> hi
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06:25:39 <zzo38> I was writing NNTP server software, maybe I will add a POSTPIPE command which is like POST but if there is an error before the message is completed (even if before the message is started), for the convenience for users who do not use specialized NNTP software.
06:30:24 <shachaf> int-e: I started up the game and there was a new level (Research Facility), but it was pretty easy.
06:31:07 <zzo38> Do you think it is good?
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06:35:56 <TheWild> hello
06:37:48 <TheWild> what "programming languages" do you know that exhibit minimal human intervention... I mean like something that could probably get in-sync with some alien race.
06:38:45 <TheWild> lambda calculus was like this, except the Church numerals are just PITA. Also, SK combinator calculus was like this. Iota language was like this.
06:39:34 <TheWild> Brainf**k is NOT like this and programming languages in common use (at least AFAIK) are NOT like this.
06:39:43 <TheWild> Do you get it?
06:41:22 <kmc> are you asking for the Platonic ideal of a programming language?
06:41:33 <kmc> or like, if we sent some code to aliens, what language would we use so they could understand it?
06:44:26 <zzo38> I think there is no guarantee that they could understand it, but, I suppose you can try to make it more likely by your choice, maybe, but you can still fail at it
06:45:36 <TheWild> no English words, that's first. Or at most very minimal set of words.
06:46:09 <TheWild> OISC could do it. I think their NSA equivalent could figure it out.
06:46:50 <TheWild> btw, I don't remember I ever done such abuse of acronyms in the past.
06:47:49 <zzo38> But how do you know what they have?
06:47:54 <kmc> if you only want to provide code that they can *run*
06:48:13 <kmc> then it's easy to illustrate an automaton
06:48:18 <kmc> with e.g. a state transition diagram
06:49:02 <kmc> or you can pretty easily explain S and K with diagrams alone
06:49:50 <kmc> provide that plus some examples and they'll figure it out
06:49:58 <zzo38> But, can you know if they can understand the diagram? I think that is potentially difficult, too.
06:50:12 <kmc> well, it could be
06:50:21 <kmc> but you're only trying to express "this shape turns into this other shape"
06:50:44 <kmc> you have to indicate the direction of time somehow
06:50:56 <kmc> and the idea that this is a sequentially executing lanugage and not, say, a constraint-solving system
06:51:34 <kmc> although if it's a pure functional languages then that doesn't really matter
06:51:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is some stuff too, to consider
07:03:49 <TheWild> to get rid of that pain, in theory we could calculate on lambda and SK using binary numbers in some way. We have vireo bird, we can keep pairs of booleans, we can keep pairs of pairs of booleans...
07:04:07 <TheWild> and the most basic positional numeral system points out to be binary
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10:43:30 <esowiki> [[Teg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60917 * A * (+581) First edit
10:49:07 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60918&oldid=60917 * A * (+303) 
10:56:53 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60919&oldid=60918 * A * (+1127) /* Simple documentation */
10:58:27 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60920&oldid=60919 * A * (+107) 
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12:10:40 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60921&oldid=60920 * A * (+214) /* Examples */
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12:16:37 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60922&oldid=60921 * A * (+78) /* FizzBuzz program */
12:16:50 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60923&oldid=60922 * A * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
12:20:28 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60924&oldid=60923 * A * (+123) /* Fibonacci sequence */
12:22:31 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60925&oldid=60924 * A * (+59) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:23:33 <esowiki> [[Teg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60926&oldid=60925 * A * (+56) /* Factorial */
12:25:55 <TheWild> yet another esolang? Oh gosh, I could change my "yet-another-turing-tar-pit" to use just 6-bits per opcode and use only characters from base64 repetitoire.
12:28:01 <TheWild> = 16 bits of RAM, 8 of which are I/O mapped to an address/data register of some bigger RAM.
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13:25:36 <int-e> Hrm, after digging a bit in the data files, I rather suspect that I'm lacking the final Baba Is You achievement due to a bug :/
13:27:21 <int-e> But of course there may be something incredibly silly to do that I didn't...
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18:44:19 <b_jonas> ok time for the bleach
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18:49:04 <zzo38> Has anyone tried to work to implementing some of this yet?   http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/web_browser
19:25:46 <imode> no, but I'm working on reinventing the web.
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19:46:47 <rain1> i make a gopher client
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21:07:16 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60927&oldid=60738 * Void * (+64) 
21:14:20 <b_jonas> `? iv
21:14:21 <HackEso> iv? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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21:49:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Emg *  New user account
21:55:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60928&oldid=60872 * Emg * (+212) Add introduction
21:55:45 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60929&oldid=60086 * Emg * (+111) Add my (emg) bytepusher vm to the list
22:09:09 <arseniiv> `rot13 test
22:09:10 <HackEso> grfg
22:12:09 <arseniiv> int-e: hi, maybe you remember, in the level vfynaq cevfba should I make jnyy vf chfu or something other?
22:13:20 <arseniiv> so far it’s the one I have absolutely no clue even after several glances
22:13:27 <b_jonas> iv as in roman 4, or iv as in the independent vars of pokemons, or iv as in intraveneous input
22:13:49 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't remember where the levels are by name.
22:14:19 <fizzie> b_jonas: For some reason I always thought the Pokémon concept was the same as the IV of cryptography, initialization vector.
22:14:30 <arseniiv> int-e: #11 in vfynaq
22:14:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: possible
22:16:08 <b_jonas> it's probably something like {initialization,individual,independent,integer} {vector,values}, and it might not even have an official expansion, because it's probably just named "IV" by whichever players reverse engineered that part
22:16:22 <b_jonas> ah yes
22:16:34 <b_jonas> {initialization,individual,independent,integer} {vector,values,variables}
22:16:59 <fizzie> Maybe +intrinsic.
22:17:14 <b_jonas> that's possible too
22:20:43 <arseniiv> interesting vocabulary
22:21:09 <int-e> arseniiv: no, the trick really isn't in making a new sentence there...
22:21:30 <arseniiv> (hm I have no sense what’s that about so almost possibly my variant isn’t even funny)
22:23:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you know, in the video games, pokemons have these attribute thingies like strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma, except not quite those because that's the traditional D&D player attributes set, and some of them tell how much damage the pokemon does while the others are mostly irrelevant
22:23:40 <b_jonas> and in some of the older games, the set of those attributes for a pokemon have less than full entropy, they are characterized by a much smaller random vector than how much the values can apparently take
22:23:52 <b_jonas> and that smaller vector is called VI
22:23:53 <b_jonas> no
22:23:55 <b_jonas> it's called IV
22:23:58 <b_jonas> or IVs or something
22:24:32 <int-e> sounds like crypto... initialization vector?
22:25:01 <arseniiv> int-e: thank you. Then maybe fubhyq v pbzr bhg gb jva be jva or fbzrubj chyyrq gb gur ebbz?
22:25:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah
22:26:00 <fizzie> int-e: That's what I said to start this going.
22:26:33 <fizzie> Well, to push it along at any rate, it was already moving.
22:26:36 <int-e> Oh. I'm not paying attention as usual.
22:26:59 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, that's what fizzie says too
22:27:20 <int-e> arseniiv: lbh'er ybbxvat sbe n ivbyngvba bs culfvpf
22:27:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think we might be a biased sample.
22:27:41 <fizzie> Didn't find much support for "initialization vector" on the webs in the Pokémon context.
22:28:03 <fizzie> "individual values" was pretty popular.
22:28:25 <b_jonas> I guess we could just ask ais
22:28:36 <b_jonas> it could even be "individual variation"
22:28:54 <arseniiv> int-e: I thought so but have still to find out what it should be precisely. Thanks!
22:29:16 <b_jonas> intrinsic virtues, intensive vibrations
22:30:01 <arseniiv> ideomotor veracity
22:30:59 <b_jonas> oh, and internal too
22:31:02 <b_jonas> internal values
22:31:19 <b_jonas> because they're not shown in the interface
22:31:55 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<16;i++ )); do echo $(grep '^i' share/dict-words | grep -v "'" | shuf -n 1) $(grep '^v' share/dict-words | grep -v "'" | shuf -n 1); done
22:31:58 <HackEso> isomorphic vented \ insomniac vulcanizing \ insignia vessel \ incriminatory valance \ idealizing vireo \ icily void \ inflicts vault \ irrigates veneering \ incinerated verges \ imp vulgarizes \ impersonal valeted \ interlinked vises \ immobilize viewpoint \ inveighing vivifies \ inventiveness valeting \ identifiable virginal
22:33:59 <fizzie> Actually, let's get some parts of speech knowledge in there.
22:34:02 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<10;i++ )); do echo $(wn i -grepa | grep '^i' | shuf -n 1) $(wn v -grepn | grep '^v' | shuf -n 1); done
22:34:07 <b_jonas> instance
22:34:10 <HackEso> inescapable vibe \ insensitive visual cell \ in high spirits virazole \ intersexual vacation \ ingrown vanderbilt \ inordinate verification \ inexpiable verpa \ intended value-system \ interred value \ inharmonious veterinary
22:34:22 <fizzie> Hm, should've filtered out spaces.
22:34:31 <b_jonas> how could I forget one of my favourite words. they're *instance* variables, because they're specific to a pokemon instance, not to a pokemon type
22:34:51 <b_jonas> not inherent
22:35:24 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<10;i++ )); do echo $(wn i -grepa | grep -v ' ' | grep '^i' | shuf -n 1) $(wn v -grepn | grep -v ' ' | grep '^v' | shuf -n 1)s; done  # I'm sure that works for all plurals
22:35:27 <HackEso> intraspecific varlets \ inhumed venturesomenesss \ imbricate viverridaes \ infamous vedalias \ incommutable voles \ incautious velazquezs \ innoxious vacuums \ inhospitable volkhovs \ inspired viyellas \ intensifying vivas
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22:35:44 <fizzie> "incommutable voles" is my guess.
22:38:08 <b_jonas> yeah, the vivas can't be right. vivas are like potions, they may help your pokemon in a battle like increase their HP or something, but I don't think they change the IVs
22:44:20 <fizzie> `mkx bin/acronym//w="${1:-tla}"; (for (( i=0;i<${#w};i++ )); do grep -i "^${w:$i:1}[a-z]*\$" share/dict-words | shuf -n 1; done) | xargs
22:44:21 <HackEso> bin/acronym
22:44:25 <fizzie> `acronym NSA
22:44:27 <HackEso> nuzzles slumps asperity
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22:48:16 <b_jonas> ``` (for x in {0..19}; do words --eng-us 25; done) | perl -e 'local$/; /^[iIvV]/ and print"$_ " for split" ",<STDIN>;'
22:48:25 <HackEso> virtanatorum ver itz vastri intratorytonife vdi irhtnitchev isone volvc iiusoi van von ixtle inhard ironedc iovic voe iaphilli vsee igiddltlo versini inanca inngestei ister vik
22:48:42 <b_jonas> inhart volvcs then
22:48:46 <b_jonas> no
22:48:51 <b_jonas> inhard volvcs
22:49:14 <b_jonas> volvc is probably some technical term with the "vc" standing for "vector" and the "vol" standing for "volumetric"
22:49:19 <b_jonas> like "voxel"
22:50:19 <int-e> fungot: ?
22:50:19 <fungot> int-e: an eu interest, i will need to have the people, space, nation and sector. even this government, would not dealing, the reassurance given by article 50.
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22:53:23 <fizzie> fungot: Sorry, I don't feel very reassured by article 50, especially these days.
22:53:23 <fungot> fizzie: but of course, and the uk to avoid a debate rather than a government acting.
22:53:58 <monkeystance> hi
22:54:00 <fizzie> fungot: And I think we've managed to avoid exactly the latter instead of the former.
22:54:00 <fungot> fizzie: are the government as to the possibility, and one of the more than a pub programme) and 30, and time and money afterwards can often have to be present, but
22:54:25 <monkeystance> hmm
22:55:25 <monkeystance> fungot, I'm new here
22:55:25 <fungot> monkeystance: is the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i fnord the crown is the abbey, the burial of the single jew who, almost in the next sentence, honestly, and switzerland, and the fact of the matter is of course, we have the debate,
22:55:45 <fizzie> You might not get much help over there, I'm afraid.
22:55:50 <fizzie> `welcome monkeystance 
22:55:51 <HackEso> monkeystance: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:56:21 <int-e> Is there an explanation of the honorable/learned/member/friend etiquette? Does learned refer to some sort of higher education?
22:57:46 <monkeystance> why does fungot seem like a conspiracy theorist?
22:57:46 <fungot> monkeystance: as the hon. member the leave of the house, certainly every single mp, that the government
22:58:13 <arseniiv> `? fungot
22:58:13 <fungot> arseniiv: will the hon. and learned friend the minister for our constructive of contributions, partly to the much discussed issue of open and closed it.
22:58:14 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
22:58:20 <arseniiv> monkeystance: ^ :)
23:04:36 <monkeystance> so what's the purpose of #esoteric?
23:04:49 <monkeystance> for people who make obscure programming languages to hang out?
23:06:37 <zzo38> That is a part of it yes. If you have stuff to discuss about esoteric programming language then you can discuss that too, though.
23:12:17 <monkeystance> what's the deal with wisdom.pdf
23:13:16 <int-e> `? boily
23:13:17 <HackEso> ​“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque.
23:14:10 <int-e> `? wisdom
23:14:11 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
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23:14:43 <int-e> wisdom.pdf is a snapshot of the collected wisdom of this channel, more or less.
23:15:26 <int-e> Unfortunately the editor hardly ever (or never?) comes here anymore.
23:16:36 <monkeystance> well it definitely is a collection of something
23:17:05 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way in SQLite to optimize queries from the assumption that "ORDER BY X,Y" and "ORDER BY Y,X" are the same order?
23:17:27 <arseniiv> monkeystance: also if you are into category theory, for instance, this is discussed too. And, umm, take a look at the logs for a couple of days, there are a lot of other topics. Can’t describe them all, I’m here not too long
23:17:44 <zzo38> Yes, look at logs to see what is on this channel, if you want to do
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23:19:39 <arseniiv> e. g. there is a fine line how much to spam the bots in public is still not frowned upon, and I can’t tell where exactly it lies
23:19:56 <arseniiv> maybe after several years
23:20:12 <arseniiv> I’ll be able to say
23:21:31 <arseniiv> int-e: btw there should be a patch adding “fungot is hon. and learned” to Baba Is You
23:21:32 <fungot> arseniiv: we will be working to. they will not, and that this is the fnord fnord own information indicating the effect. we have no deterrents, and my right, simply because the government are
23:22:06 <arseniiv> also isn’t it time to switch their style?
23:22:33 <int-e> Naaaa, Brexit is still a hot topic :P
23:22:38 <arseniiv> now I also start seeing something conspiratory
23:24:05 <int-e> I think the style is changed at very erratic intervals, though only a few styles surivive more than half a dozen queries.
23:24:13 <int-e> (the youtube one, for example, is awful)
23:25:45 <zzo38> Are you going to add any further styles?
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23:30:06 <fizzie> ^style
23:30:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
23:30:56 <fizzie> Yeah, many of those are not so good.
23:31:21 <zzo38> Maybe replace them with better ones then
23:31:57 <fizzie> Personally I think "irc" and "europarl" are the ones that work best as far as conversation goes, ISTR "sms" was pretty lifelike but not so often used, "ct" holds a certain charm but gets repetitive fast, and that's about it.
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23:34:09 <int-e> Discworld is a fun guessing game... which book is it quoting? It has a strong tendency to produce literal quotes.
23:34:25 <int-e> (for some values of "fun")
23:34:49 <zzo38> Would there be a style of Magic: the Gathering? Would there be a style to use all styles together?
23:35:16 <fizzie> We used to have an actual guessing game over at #douglasadams on the IRCnet side. It would quote three lines from one of the five books, and the first person to say the number of the book won a point.
23:36:15 <fizzie> It would be convenient to have an on-the-fly "all the styles together" mode, but that's a bit too much work to implement in Befunge.
23:36:23 <int-e>   `Your !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! year mission is to !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!,
23:36:23 <int-e> !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!, land !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! a safe distance !!!!! !!!!!
23:36:23 <int-e> ..... ..... ..... .... , land ..... ..... ..... 
23:36:35 <fizzie> 5? 
23:36:42 <int-e> Yeah I can see how that would be fun ... I'd fail for this one.
23:36:45 <int-e> 5 is right
23:37:17 <fizzie> There's that one part in the prologue that's word-for-word identical in 4 and one of the earlier books.
23:37:19 <zzo38> Can you make a precomputed "all the styles together" mode?
23:37:21 <fizzie> That's kind of hard.
23:37:23 <int-e> I guess I don't remember those books all that well anymore. Maybe I can now read them for a fifth or so time :)
23:38:00 <arseniiv> !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! => I’m starting to panic there
23:38:02 <fizzie> int-e: I deduced 5 because that's what the Grebulons were doing.
23:38:24 <fizzie> zzo38: In theory. I would probably need to prune some of them, since I think a few styles are close to the file size limits.
23:40:07 <fizzie> It might be I could use srilm's ngram-merge tool if I wrote a script to do the conversion backwards. The way most of those are trained are using the VariKN toolkit, which produces standard .arpa files, and then I have an "arpa2fungot.pl" script to generate the files the bot understands.
23:40:07 <fungot> fizzie: as the hon. member the leave of the house, wringing, with lines such as
23:40:15 <fizzie> ^style ct
23:40:15 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:40:39 <zzo38> (I also have my GURPS game story recording, although I am guessing that there is not enough data to use that, I think.)
23:40:48 <int-e> fungot: script much?
23:40:48 <fungot> int-e: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
23:41:21 <int-e> fungot: if you take a wheel of a tricycle, do you get a bicycle then?
23:41:21 <fungot> int-e: you! take! we find! aaahhhh! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
23:41:53 <fizzie> I probably haven't figured out the best VariKN parameters for the application, though, since I don't think the later styles work all that well. The few earliest ones used a much simpler handmade C++ thing.
23:42:53 <fizzie> At least we got that bug fixed which caused to get it stuck in a loop all the time.
23:45:22 <oerjan> fizzie: it has a command to get the styles and select a style, surely those can be combined *ducks*
23:46:15 <fizzie> Taking that seriously, a random *fixed* style would be easy enough to add.
23:46:27 <int-e> oerjan: Are you asking for a fungot autostylist?
23:46:27 <fungot> int-e: must think of a way to the ocean palace?
23:46:43 <fizzie> fungot: That'd probably be a good idea, it's not a safe place to be.
23:46:43 <fungot> fizzie: these unique items make us invincible! well...yes. are you sure this is money...
23:46:45 <oerjan> int-e: as long as it does pedicure
23:47:09 <int-e> @google "chrono trigger"
23:47:10 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger
23:47:52 <fizzie> I remember most of the bits it's quoting from, in this style.
23:48:19 <oerjan> fizzie: and once you have a way to select a random style, you could add a flag to run that before each babbling, or something...
23:48:43 * int-e gives oerjan a quiz-zical look.
23:48:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Right, but I mean, "use all styles" would mean merging all the models.
23:49:26 <oerjan> right, but given that this started as a mention of a guessing game, i assumed each babble should be from only one...
23:49:57 <fizzie> The "unique items" are for the sidequest refights of Ozzie/Flea/Slash, "you! take! we find!" is from Ayla's time, the chef's in a snit in 600AD, "you're not our king" is from the easter egg-ish thing of bringing Magus to meet Ozzie in the late-game...
23:50:22 <fizzie> "he's really a tricycle! pass him!" is from one of the funnier special endings.
23:53:08 -!- MDude has joined.
23:55:53 <oerjan> <b_jonas> ok time for the bleach <-- . o O ( his mind has finally had enough )
23:56:59 <oerjan> if i didn't know b_jonas had a habit of sometimes speaking about house chores, that would be the most likely interpretation.
23:59:33 <int-e> `? password
23:59:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is invalid.