00:01:02 <oerjan> salpynx: i just said above that i way avoiding getting involved :P
00:01:26 <oerjan> although ais523 had an idea that maybe it might work to simulate a 1d CA
00:02:46 <oerjan> that talk page is a mess
00:02:49 <salpynx> it doesn't feel like a bad language, but the debate is tiring. It shouldn't be that hard to put an end to, but I feel my ability to judge (or think straight) has been affected by trying to follow it
00:03:26 <salpynx> TuxCrafting had the most coherent arguments, but they are now struck through
00:04:44 <salpynx> I don't think the language can copy a single bit from one mem location to another, without destroying stored data, and that prevents any tc mechanism.
00:06:20 <salpynx> I tried to set out my thoughts in a way that any errors should be easy to spot
00:08:52 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61815&oldid=61800 * Oerjan * (+39) Undo revision 61800 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (Usable for programming is a higher bar than just outputting fixed strings.)
00:10:08 <rdococ> TIL 'cat' is usable for programming
00:11:05 <oerjan> rdococ: um i'm saying the opposite
00:13:01 <rdococ> are there any programming languages that can detect sarcasm?
00:14:39 <salpynx> I got it, but I'm not a programming language.
00:14:58 <oerjan> i also got the sarcasm, but the target was ambiguous.
00:15:30 <salpynx> I suppose I'm occasionally usable for programming though
00:16:45 <salpynx> heh, in fact that's what I should be doing now, rather than worrying about bitch
00:18:59 <oerjan> salpynx: i don't think your argument holds, because you're assuming that to be TC, Bitch has to be able to do a _specific_ calculation on the accumulator.
00:19:28 <rdococ> interesting language name
00:20:25 <oerjan> for example, iirc it is a known theorem that a 2-register minsky machine cannot compute the square of one of its registers.
00:21:17 <oerjan> but this doesn't matter, because the TC proof uses a data encoding that never requires doing that.
00:21:36 <salpynx> oerjan: I didn't go into that detail, but I believe the copy is a stand in for _any_ operation which takes two operands (of any size) from memory and performs an operation without destroying other parts of the memory. An OR or AND would work equally to disprove what I claim
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00:35:08 <salpynx> In the argument, 'copy' was not meant to be a special operation, just a specific instance to represent the generic case of an operation with 2 operands. I think my argument applies to any operation that actually uses two bits from memory. Operations taking one bit from memory and the other from user input or code are fine, and all the other code examples I can follow only do that, which is what a PDA can do.
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00:49:09 <oerjan> i cannot get from the spec how chaining in Bitch is actually supposed to work. and my brain refuses to try to read the implementation.
00:51:07 <oerjan> although the only _useful_ interpretation is that op1 op2 number will calculate acc op1 (acc op2 number) where acc is the original value in both cases, and then only store the final result.
00:51:28 <salpynx> oerjan: thanks for getting your hands this dirty anyway -- I feel like I can't get much further and was hoping A or some other expert in the language would take on the challenge and prove me wrong.
00:52:36 <salpynx> oerjan: Just knowing I haven't made any blindingly obvious errors is helpful
00:53:10 <oerjan> i don't understand Bitch either, is what i'm saying.
00:54:40 <oerjan> the spec is not stating some important assumptions, so i might be guessing wrong and that puts me off thinking more about it.
00:56:24 <salpynx> fair enough, I think my challenge is clear enough though. If someone invested in proving TC can show me an algorithm that can copy a bit, I'll understand it enough to help with that. If they can't, I'm calling it a PDA
00:57:47 <salpynx> My getting invested in proving not-TC was probably a mistake, so I appreciate you not wanting to get in further
01:04:17 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61816&oldid=56544 * A * (+159) Add specification, as usability is more than printing a message.
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03:51:11 <sombrero> Pardon the interruption, but probably in the near future will be necessary a eso-AI (esoteric artifitial intelligence) to counteract the immense productivity of a typical AI, or also, to counteract AIs whose primary purpose is self-preservation rather exploration, What is your take on this?
03:53:21 <shachaf> I don't know what those words mean.
03:54:48 <kmc> culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism? i like the way you think
03:56:12 <Hooloovo0> fungot, how do you feel about culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism?
03:56:13 <fungot> Hooloovo0: your professor wants the representation of a macro could do that if you need anything done, you have
04:18:09 <sombrero> what a direction has taken the incursion, a dada esoteric superintelligence LOL
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06:01:13 <kmc> fungot: when the going gets weird, the weird turn what?
06:01:13 <fungot> kmc: that was an actual command), is a " hyphen-minus"
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10:38:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61817&oldid=61814 * A * (-11) This can be used as an argument against TC-ness. Remove the deletion line
10:39:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61818&oldid=61817 * A * (-42) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */
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10:44:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61819&oldid=61818 * A * (+229) Closed challenge (already done by Helen)
10:47:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61820&oldid=61819 * A * (+18) grm
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10:51:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61821&oldid=61820 * A * (+228) Add description
11:03:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61822&oldid=61821 * A * (+119) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:04:06 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61823&oldid=61603 * Void * (+5) /* Jumping processes */
11:08:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61824&oldid=61822 * A * (+205) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:14:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61825&oldid=61824 * A * (+459) Extend my counter-arguement
11:16:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61826&oldid=61825 * A * (+162) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
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11:18:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61827&oldid=61826 * A * (-47) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:23:16 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61828&oldid=61823 * Void * (+230) /* Evolving programs */
11:23:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61829&oldid=61827 * A * (+116) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:29:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61830&oldid=61829 * A * (+152) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:30:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61831&oldid=61830 * A * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:31:45 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61832&oldid=61828 * Void * (+128) /* Implementations */
11:37:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61833&oldid=61831 * A * (+126) grm, and mixed up two conjectures
11:47:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61834&oldid=61833 * A * (+16) Make my argument harder to read
11:48:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61835&oldid=61834 * A * (-7) /* Counter-arguments */
11:54:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61836&oldid=61835 * A * (+74) /* What bitch surpasses */
11:56:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61837&oldid=61836 * A * (-12) /* Counter-arguments */
12:04:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61838&oldid=61837 * A * (+114) /* Counter-arguments */
12:09:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61839&oldid=61838 * Salpynx * (+1291) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 3rd attempt to save, but page keeps changing
12:25:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61840&oldid=61839 * A * (+8) /* Counter-arguments */
12:38:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61841&oldid=61840 * A * (-1887)
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13:11:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61842&oldid=58702 * A * (+359) Ask a question that is quite hard to determine
13:25:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61843&oldid=61842 * A * (+30) Tell where it is
13:34:29 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61844&oldid=61517 * A * (+0) grm
13:36:19 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61845&oldid=61807 * Int-e * (+20) implementation: fix a bug (probably due to simplification of the github version).
13:37:21 <int-e> the sad thing is I'm just looking at the code because the specification is so imprecise.
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15:15:08 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61846&oldid=61845 * Int-e * (+370) add rot13 program
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17:19:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alvarito056 * New user account
17:33:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61847&oldid=61709 * Alvarito056 * (+155)
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18:03:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61848&oldid=61847 * Simplemaker * (+272)
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23:21:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61849&oldid=61841 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ fix another important typo, oops.
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