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00:20:03 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62456&oldid=62399 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+136)
00:20:23 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62457&oldid=62456 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
00:24:11 <esowiki> [[1=0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62458&oldid=62457 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+8) /* Calculator */
00:26:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62459&oldid=62371 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
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00:50:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A stone arachnid * New user account
00:54:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62460&oldid=62288 * A stone arachnid * (+229)
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01:24:33 <esowiki> [[Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62461&oldid=45263 * A stone arachnid * (+2) /* See Also */ Added bullets
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02:25:29 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4d 4h 47m 23s ago: We're hoping for your song to win.
02:25:47 <oerjan> i haven't been following eurovision at all, just barely noticed it was over
02:26:08 * oerjan is still busy archive binging schlock mercenary
02:28:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> excessive information <-- definitely scow
02:38:18 * oerjan hasn't been here for a week, and is probably going to ignore what's happened on the wiki unless there's something really interesting
02:38:26 <oerjan> of course i ignore a lot anyway
02:55:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62462&oldid=62428 * Salpynx * (+135) move bounded bf interpreter to popular problems section
02:57:39 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -2
02:57:40 <HackEso> 1332) <ais523_> ugh, now my Fugue hello world has got stuck in my head again \ 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
03:05:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62463&oldid=62462 * Salpynx * (+67) /* Possible with adjustments */ being picky, but [.+*#] != Mandelbrot Set
03:07:43 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62464&oldid=62417 * Salpynx * (+8) emphasise the value of the popular problem
03:31:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62465&oldid=62463 * Salpynx * (+667) /* Computational class */ summary as I see it. Don't know if this "simulating-arbitrary-sized BSMs" is a distinct class, but it seems interesting.
03:34:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62466&oldid=62465 * Salpynx * (-1691) being bold and removing inaccurate and unhelpful sections which enumerate 'impossible' solutions that have concrete implementations on the very same page
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04:14:50 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62467&oldid=62466 * A * (+243) 2 nested loops are sufficient for Turing-completeness.
04:15:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62468&oldid=62467 * A * (-2) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */
04:16:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Excessive information?
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04:31:36 <zzo38> Somewhere they mention you cannot use CAPTCHA with NNTP. Actually, if a SASL mechanism for CAPTCHA is implemented, then it is possible to use with NNTP and with any other protocol that supports SASL. The challenge consists of arbitrary ASCII text that explains what kind of response is needed. The response also must be ASCII text, and does not require the use of a web-browser or other protocols.
04:32:48 <zzo38> (It is OK if it asks a question to which a web-browser can be used to find the answer e.g. from Wikipedia, in case for example you do not know what year some famous person was born or whatever.)
04:47:53 <shachaf> Oh, I remember the context
05:26:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62469&oldid=62468 * Salpynx * (-241) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */ undo: 63 loop limit refers to this specific bf implementation. This is a link description not a TC for/against
05:55:18 <zzo38> Now I wrote the document: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sasl-captcha Now you can use CAPTCHA with any protocol that supports SASL, and not be so terrible like reCAPTCHA.
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06:42:10 <zzo38> Someone told me the only program they need on Windows is a video editing software, and prefers Linux for everything else (although better video editing software is available on Macintosh, but the video editing software on Linux is no good). Do you have an advice?
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08:23:34 <Taneb> Someone's been working on some pretty neat-looking video editing software in Haskell, which I'd hope works on Linux, I think it's called Kompositor?
08:30:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Run the program inside WINE, or inside a virtual machine?
08:30:29 <shachaf> Or run Linux on top of Windows with WSL2.
08:31:39 <myname> video editing inside wine sounds like fun for every cpu
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10:40:33 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62470&oldid=62453 * Unlimiter * (+61)
10:40:58 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62471&oldid=62470 * Unlimiter * (-1)
10:41:06 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62472&oldid=62471 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Hello World */
11:06:27 <int-e> shachaf: C++ is so lovely: https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L108-L123
11:06:57 <int-e> (Though maybe the underlying truth is that I have no shame.)
11:07:07 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62473&oldid=62472 * Unlimiter * (+59)
11:07:55 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62474&oldid=62473 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* Counting up */
11:08:35 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62475&oldid=62474 * Unlimiter * (+67) /* Countdown */
11:09:29 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62476&oldid=62475 * Unlimiter * (+54) /* Counting up */
11:11:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62477&oldid=62469 * A * (+6) An accumulator is not a memory system.
11:13:20 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62478&oldid=62477 * A * (+0) Because an accumulator is a data structure. Remove the ugly underline in the link.
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12:44:51 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62479&oldid=62478 * A * (+0) BFI requires character I/O.
12:49:28 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62480 * A stone arachnid * (+2544) Created page with "'''NullScript 2''' is a esolang written by [[User:a stone arachnid|]] inspired by [[Deadfish~]] and [[bf]]. It stores data in a 256-cell prison, and has an 8-item FIFO paramet..."
13:24:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62481&oldid=62455 * Int-e * (+197) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ mention another implementation
13:25:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62482&oldid=62481 * Int-e * (+0) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ layout
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13:30:30 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62483&oldid=62480 * A * (+75) Nice.
13:35:58 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62484&oldid=62479 * Int-e * (+99) /* Computational class */ mention PDAs
13:51:37 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62485&oldid=62484 * Int-e * (+1903) /* Common Algorithms */ Sketch bounded storage (adapted from talk page)
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13:57:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62486&oldid=62485 * Int-e * (+46) /* Bounded storage */ tweak
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14:08:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62487&oldid=62486 * A * (+12) That extra section is too distinctive.
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14:13:36 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62488&oldid=62487 * Int-e * (+377) /* Subtraction */ present one unrolled operation
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14:22:16 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62489&oldid=62488 * Int-e * (+34) /* Implementation */ C++
14:23:13 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62490&oldid=62489 * A * (+40) /* Computational class */
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14:33:10 <rain1> Brian Kernighan interviews Ken Thompson
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15:54:15 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62491&oldid=62476 * Unlimiter * (+0)
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17:26:41 <shachaf> int-e: What's unreasonable about that?
17:29:18 <int-e> that, and explicit destructor invocations.
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17:29:56 <int-e> but it seems to work
17:30:22 <int-e> even valgrind (memcheck) likes it
17:31:11 <int-e> I should try that google thing, what was it again... address sanitizer?
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17:33:54 <int-e> Right. Address sanitizers doesn't like that the final delete gets a different type than the initial new. Not unexpected :)
17:34:21 <shachaf> One good trick is to just use C and no destructors.
17:37:22 <kmc> is asan a google thing?
17:37:32 <kmc> destructors are tg
17:37:36 <kmc> raii 4 lyfe
17:40:40 <shachaf> doesn't raii just make it easier to write c++y code full of random allocations and other nonsense and get it right
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17:48:01 <shachaf> also if you have destructors they free your memory at program exit, which i hear is a squander
17:48:06 <int-e> so it seems that there's some stupid magic by which the destructor communicates the object size to the global delete operator
17:58:10 <kmc> doesn't seem that magic? because delete is templated
17:58:13 <kmc> or effectively so
17:58:19 <kmc> it knows the static type
17:58:29 <kmc> and also, objects with virtual stuff have the size in the vtable typically
17:58:36 <kmc> virtual destructors are important
17:59:12 <shachaf> Presumably the goal here to avoid having a vtable.
17:59:26 <int-e> yeah it's the operator delete() that needs tweaking to do the (shifty) thing I attempted.
18:00:45 <int-e> https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L126-L141
18:01:17 <shachaf> imo you should get on the #define Case break; case bandwagon
18:02:22 <int-e> This is at least borderline insane though because operator delete has too many variants.
18:03:21 <int-e> shachaf: so how does that work with automatic indentation?
18:03:30 <int-e> syntax highlighting too
18:03:38 <shachaf> It works fine with my syntax highlighting.
18:03:48 <shachaf> Not sure about automatic indentation.
18:04:48 <int-e> and what's the story of operator delete and calling destructors, hmm.
18:06:38 <int-e> Okay, in a delete expression, the destructor is called first, then the operator delete.
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18:09:19 <shachaf> Why do you need to delete anything in that code, though?
18:10:23 <int-e> because I wanted an algebraic datatype.
18:11:06 <int-e> lit links to an mpz integer; bop links to a nested operation that needs to be cleaned up.
18:11:27 <shachaf> uh oh, you're overloading main
18:11:54 <shachaf> I guess that might be allowed.
18:17:26 <int-e> oh clang++ doesn't like this at all, it seems not to know about the sized version of ::operator delete...
18:18:02 <int-e> tbf that's a C++14 thing.
18:18:21 <shachaf> Is it an old version of clang?
18:18:28 <shachaf> Or maybe you need -std=c++14 or something.
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18:19:17 <int-e> hmm, yes, it's old.
18:26:44 <int-e> Whatever, let's pay the price for a vtable instead.
18:27:32 <shachaf> vtables are such a scow imo
18:27:51 <shachaf> why does c++ gotta do it like that
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18:27:58 <shachaf> Have you considered a union instead?
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18:28:15 <shachaf> I think it'd just be easier since you're already effectively emulating one.
18:29:15 <int-e> (with a union you typically allocate as much memory as required by the largest alternative)
18:30:44 <int-e> None of this is a huge deal... the code resulted from a desire to explore, not an actual requirement.
18:31:14 <int-e> If I wanted to save memory I'd do the parsing on the fly rather than building an AST.
18:31:45 <shachaf> Presumably the thing you want to save is cache, not memory.
18:31:59 <int-e> also, next time I go down this route I'll probably use the non-sized version of ::operator delete.
18:32:35 <int-e> again, for better locality I should parse on the fly. bitch syntax is so simple.
18:33:23 <shachaf> whoa, you're mixing /8 and &7
18:33:57 <int-e> Heh, I'm not really sure why.
18:34:29 <int-e> I know why I used /8, but I don't know why I didn't use %8.
18:34:38 <shachaf> I guess it's not v. confusing, it's pretty straightforward.
18:35:14 <int-e> (/8 is easier to relate to &7 than >>3 is)
18:39:40 <shachaf> Wait, so is this op thing just an AST?
18:39:59 <int-e> well the "T" is very much an overstatement
18:40:40 <int-e> hmm, I don't know what the "A" stands for there.
18:41:13 <int-e> Ah. I was thinking geometrically so I'd say "line", probably.
18:41:17 <shachaf> I guess mean I program, not op.
18:42:01 <int-e> program is a bunch of ops, so it's an abstract syntax comb.
18:42:15 <shachaf> Anyway you could allocate these things like cool people do, in an arena.
18:45:07 <shachaf> But I guess operating on the code directly like you said makes more sense.
18:45:17 <int-e> maybe another time
18:46:06 <int-e> (In principle I have some ideas for transforming the operations, but I won't explore that in C++. Also maybe I should stop spending time on bitch. :) )
18:46:26 <shachaf> I don't even know what this language is.
18:46:30 <int-e> TC-ness is still open, but that won't be solved by new interpreters :)
18:47:04 <shachaf> Did you ever say what int-e means?
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18:47:17 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/bitch ;-)
18:47:28 <shachaf> I've seen that link before.
18:47:31 <int-e> No, I don't think I ever did.
18:47:35 <shachaf> But I find the name unappealing so I don't click it.
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18:47:50 <int-e> Yeah the name is needlessly offensive.
18:48:12 <int-e> I think of it as bit-changer or something in that vicinity.
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21:04:34 <Hooloovo0> sorry about the join/part spam, not sure what znc did
21:05:40 <int-e> Hooloovo0 has quit [Excess Flood] <-- some disagreement on the acceptable rate limits :)
21:06:43 <int-e> Joining a million channels at once? I don't really have any good guess.
21:06:57 <Hooloovo0> oh, I guess that's why it was only freenode
21:08:28 <Hooloovo0> I guess it's never done that consistently enough that it mattered
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22:16:32 <shachaf> kmc: pg&e is telling me to be a prepper what do i do twh
22:17:06 <kmc> what did they say
22:17:16 <shachaf> "suggest customers prepare for outages that could last longer than 48 hours"
22:17:33 <shachaf> they don't give an upper bound so i assume they mean infinity
22:17:43 <kmc> you should be ready to live w/o power
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22:24:44 <b_jonas> hello, #esoteric. I'm back home from my vacation. it was great.
22:25:25 <HackEso> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:27:32 <b_jonas> has anything important happened here?
22:29:51 <arseniiv> hi all! Had somebody considered making a card deck based on a nontrivial combinatorial design? Like, relations between cards be inferred from the mathematical structure behind the deck design. Like, not some A × B (suits and ranks) or maybe A × B + C (Tarot) but something more intricate
22:30:10 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hello! It seems a lucky coincedence
22:30:40 <arseniiv> there’s an idea I have, but it’s not that bright
22:32:33 <arseniiv> I take a R-algebra for some finite ring R and… and there are either too many authomorphisms or too many elements (cards) or there’s too few elements
22:33:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: cards, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-15.2307.html and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-22.2308.html and I think there's one more article by David Madore somewhere
22:33:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: talks about the card game Dobble, also mentioning Set, but also new possibilities not realized by previously known card games
22:34:22 <HackEso> olist 1164: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
22:35:00 <b_jonas> an olist? was there another one while I was away?
22:38:51 <arseniiv> of course, authomorphisms aren’t necessary that bad: in chess, one faces 8 indistinguishable pawns and lives, and here it’s even more interesting. Let’s say we are in Z_3^3 acted by S_3 on coordinates, then there is of course an orbit (120, 102, 012, 210, 201, 021), but there are also smaller orbits, which could make us some semantic distinctions on cards of these orbits, and also we can in some cases act by A_3 only, *and* also th
22:38:51 <arseniiv> ere is anyway a distinction if we draw 130 then 301, or if we draw 130 then 310. Though I’m not sure as to how exactly one could harness all that, and also I’d like a bit more interesting design than this R-module or R-algebra one
22:39:20 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks, I’ll look at these! Hopefully they aren’t all in French :D
22:40:58 <arseniiv> oh okay they both are. Guess I’ll bother some frankophone friend nearby
22:43:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2004-07-26.0703.html is about Set, in English because it's old, but that's not the extra article I've mentioned
22:44:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm even without translation it definitely looks very to the point, thank you once more. Have you been somewhat interested in this topic too, or do you just really have most David’s posts memorized? :D
22:45:14 <arseniiv> oh, I meant the previous about two former posts
22:46:04 <arseniiv> also maybe Set was what in the end influenced this in me, who knows
22:46:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: also about dobble https://math.stackexchange.com/q/464932 and some other questions linked from there
22:46:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't have all his posts memorized, especially not because his blog is quite old now, and I haven't read all the articles from before I started reading them
22:47:07 <b_jonas> but in this case I just had to search for "Dobble" in the title index
22:47:29 <b_jonas> I also have bookmarks for some of the more useful articles on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn
22:48:01 <b_jonas> no new post in a month is unusual by the way, in two more weeks I'll start to worry
22:48:24 <arseniiv> also I’d like, in a particular design, for each card to be related in some way differently to all others than any other one. I don’t think I understand how this should be formalized, for example it shouldn’t be a group action, that’s too strict
22:50:48 <arseniiv> anyway, it’s definitely a lucky coincidence. I even hadn’t thought to ask here initially
22:51:15 <arseniiv> though it’s a perfect place, if one to think about that
22:51:50 <b_jonas> and obviously you should look at all the traditional card sets that have cards in each combination of 8 or 13 or 14 ranks and 4 suits, plus perhaps a separate major arcana trump suit or jokers; there's also rare five-suit variants
22:52:10 <b_jonas> the number or ranks varies a lot, there are games played with just 6 ranks too
22:53:18 <b_jonas> what symmetry this has depends on the game played of course
22:55:16 <b_jonas> wow, two updates to bobadventures
22:55:22 <arseniiv> but usually there’s an ambient symmetry of suits, unbroken or almost unbroken
22:55:47 <arseniiv> so I’d look for something wild
22:57:28 <b_jonas> I wouldn't say that, because bridge is a popular game and it's very much not symmetric among suits
22:57:29 <arseniiv> one of the goals is to have a divination deck :D I don’t think I’d use it even in any story ideas, but it could be interesting to try to devise sufficiently logical semantics for each card based at what it does to others
22:57:59 <b_jonas> there are divination decks too, but you asked for ones with a nontrivial combinatorial design, and they don't have that
22:59:43 <b_jonas> http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190514.html is that... a minifig of a warforged?
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