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00:30:19 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62744&oldid=62743 * Unlimiter * (+9)
00:32:18 <unlimiter> I hope the esolang community grows in the future
00:32:47 <zzo38> Yes, and if you have a idea of esolangs then you can do it too
00:34:16 <zzo38> I had a idea I mentioned on this IRC perhaps a week ago I don't remember exactly when, and I should put it into the esolang wiki too
00:36:19 <adu> I'm making a meta lang
00:36:25 <adu> is that esoteric enough?
00:37:01 <unlimiter> wait until i understand what a meta lang is...
00:37:07 <zzo38> Well, let's see what you make, anyways
00:40:37 <adu> wanna see the AST?
00:40:38 <adu> https://ghostbin.com/paste/hm4k4
00:40:49 <adu> funny enough, I don't actually have a syntax yet
00:41:38 <unlimiter> interesting... you could make the syntax quickly
00:41:43 <adu> I could never decide between (@var x 2) and var $ x = 2
00:42:40 <adu> @defn f(x) = x + 1
00:42:52 <adu> holy shit my language already exists
00:43:25 <adu> defn $f(x) = x + 1
00:44:14 <unlimiter> but both of them distinguish between names and keywords, whihc is a good style
00:44:23 <adu> anyways a fundamental goal was to make elseif really easy
00:44:51 <adu> I spent a lot of time trying to combine trinary and if-elif-else
00:45:02 <adu> I wrote it all down somewhere
00:45:19 <zzo38> I think lambdabot will run Haskell codes, not yours
00:45:48 <adu> basically, there are bindings, declarations, and applications
00:45:51 <zzo38> (Although what you wrote, I think happens to be valid in Haskell too)
00:46:06 <adu> the scope of bindings's variables is within the body
00:46:18 <adu> the scope of declarations' variables is unlimited
00:46:34 <adu> and applications can't introduce any variables
00:46:41 <adu> like every language
00:46:55 <adu> it started as a compilation target for every language
00:46:58 <unlimiter> in lua, every undeclared variable returns nil
00:47:30 <unlimiter> Here's my esolang btw, it's very sensitive, don't touch it hardly: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Point
00:47:45 <adu> I think I finally came to the conclusion that there really isn't any difference between statements and applications unless you start thinking Haskellish
00:48:15 <unlimiter> people who work the haskell way are rare
00:49:46 <adu> also, I started creating an instruction set
00:50:02 <adu> that would fill in the places after decls/ bindings/funcs
00:50:17 <adu> so in MathML there are only bindings and functions, no declarations
00:50:24 <zzo38> I sometimes use assembly language, for a few different kind of computers/VMs
00:50:25 <adu> my language is essentially MathML + declarations
00:51:08 <adu> the "instruction set" of MathML is stuff like plus, times, differentiald, binomial, and amillion other things that MathML3 people thought should be in there
00:51:25 <adu> Here is my instruction set:
00:51:27 <adu> http://andydude.github.io/drosera-cdbase/dscdbase/cd/prog2.xhtml
00:52:40 <adu> for reference, this is the MathML related standard: https://www.openmath.org/cd/prog1.html
00:53:05 <adu> it basically does a terrible job of representing computation
00:53:14 <unlimiter> if you want to make your interpreter/compiler code-golfed, i suggest that you leave just the fundamental instructions
00:53:40 <adu> what's code golf
00:54:03 <adu> oh, like J?
00:55:27 <unlimiter> people also put an eye on RAM usage
00:56:24 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62745 * Zzo38 * (+1247) Created page with "This programming language consists of: * Zero or more inputs, which are natural numbers * Zero or more registers, each of which has a fixed maximum (defined by the program), a..."
00:57:49 <zzo38> Now you can see what I wrote: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_2
00:58:28 <adu> do MMIX and EBC constitute esolangs?
00:59:19 <zzo38> adu: Maybe it constitutes "quasi-esolangs". (I know MMIX, but not EBC)
00:59:24 <adu> they're technically assembly languages
00:59:47 <zzo38> unlimiter: It is an input to the program.
00:59:48 <adu> EBC is EFI ByteCode
00:59:57 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
01:00:39 <adu> supposedly to increase the chances of portable, universal drivers for everything so you never have to port a driver or write a driver more than once, and so far as I know, it has been used... never
01:00:52 <zzo38> unlimiter: It depends on the implementation, because my specification does not specify where the input comes from, but yes it can, if the inputs have an order you could put one number on each line for example.
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01:01:17 <zzo38> (It could also be considered like a function, rather than standard I/O, could be another way)
01:04:15 <zzo38> adu: Have you used MMIX or EBC? I used MMIX.
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01:04:35 <adu> I have written a ton of MMIX, I have only heard of EBC
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01:07:26 <adu> I don't think an opensource EBC assembler exists
01:07:36 <adu> pretty sure the only implementation is intel-cc
01:08:19 <zzo38> Have you used 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language?
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02:39:03 <zzo38> Do you know why in the All The Tropes, the anti-heroes goes from I to V but the anti-villains goes only from I to IV and not V?
02:42:25 <kmc> what's an anti-villain
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03:30:26 <adu> what's an anti-hero
03:55:44 <zzo38> It is described in the All The Tropes, I think, what is anti-villain and anti-hero.
03:56:47 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62746&oldid=61763 * A * (+230) /* Computational class */
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04:00:44 <A__> Poking my head in here-is Volatile's instruction set minimal, or can it be minimized?
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04:01:49 <shachaf> A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well.
04:03:37 <shachaf> (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.)
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04:08:54 <A__> A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well.
04:09:04 <A__> (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.)
04:11:04 <A__> shachaf: fortunately I have time to post messages here. Sorry for immediately quitting...
04:16:00 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62747&oldid=62737 * A * (+255) /* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */
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04:18:42 <shachaf> int-e: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate.
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04:22:10 <A__> shachaf: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate.
04:22:41 <shachaf> A__: Please stop pasting what people say into the channel like that. It's quite rude.
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04:34:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62748&oldid=55361 * Zzo38 * (+338)
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05:35:14 <int-e> . o O ( A__ntagonize )
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06:02:18 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+4754) low-level physical computation model idea, probably incomplete
06:04:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62750&oldid=62727 * JonoCode9374 * (+579) /* Reducing the Command Set */ new section
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06:45:00 <myname> A__dapt, I__mprovide, O__vercome
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06:47:04 <int-e> Oh you can try to impersonate people and bots on IRC, who'd have thought!
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06:48:04 <zzo38> Still, there is the address can be seen; the last octet seems to be changing a bit but the rest of the address is same as before
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06:48:32 <A__> The maximum nickname length is 16 characters.
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06:48:36 <int-e> zzo38: Ah but I filter those, too noisy in general.
06:48:59 <int-e> A__nswering all the important questions.
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06:59:54 <shachaf> I'd prefer to be able to execve my C programs.
07:00:24 <olsner> make a binfmt module that looks for C code
07:00:29 <shachaf> Hmm. Maybe I could define a magic number on my system.
07:01:03 <shachaf> Which is kind of funny, but actually not too bad.
07:01:28 <shachaf> I'd have a binfmt like "//BUILDFLAGS" and include all the cc flags to pass when building a program.
07:02:43 <zzo38> The first line of my C programs have "#if 0" (and then the second line is gcc), so if you do that too, then you can use that, perhaps.
07:02:48 <shachaf> whoa, I have all sorts of weird binfmts already.
07:05:32 <shachaf> Oh, this already exists: https://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/binfmtc.html.en
07:08:13 <shachaf> Hmm. Maybe I should just use binfmt to replace #! entirely with something more reasonable.
07:08:53 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to emulate other operating systems and instruction sets if executing a ELF program that specifies those systems (if you have a emulator installed)?
07:10:58 <shachaf> WINE has a binfmt_misc format for executing Windows .exe files.
07:12:00 <zzo38> Does Mono also have one?
07:13:07 <shachaf> I don't know what you do if you want both.
07:18:17 <shachaf> `ls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc
07:18:18 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc': No such file or directory
07:18:23 <HackEso> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 18 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 5 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cmdline \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpagecount \ kpageflags \ loadavg \ locks \ meminfo \ misc \ mounts \ net \ pagetypeinfo \ partitions \ self \ slabinfo \ softirqs \ stat \ swaps \
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07:39:11 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62751&oldid=62511 * Int-e * (+5377) /* A Turing machine */ New section.
07:40:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62752&oldid=62751 * Int-e * (-947) /* Computational class */ update and shorten section
07:43:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62753&oldid=62720 * Int-e * (-3684) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ replace contents by reference
07:45:05 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62754&oldid=62752 * Int-e * (+0) /* Computational class */ cosmetics
08:09:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62755&oldid=62753 * Int-e * (+314) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ this has moved partially...
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08:45:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62756&oldid=62754 * Salpynx * (-16) Update category for TC (I miss the BSM with limited unbounded ability)
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09:10:18 <shachaf> int-e: I still don't know how broken Typeable is right now.
09:10:39 <shachaf> As far as I an tell MD5 is not known to be broken enough to construct Typeable collisions.
09:10:46 <shachaf> But that's mostly an accident.
09:11:15 <int-e> Yeah, same here. A generic 2^64 attack is feasible in principle, of course.
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09:12:03 <shachaf> I wonder how expensive it would be.
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09:12:34 <int-e> too expensive for me :)
09:14:51 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/epixoip/a83d38f412b4737e99bbef804a270c40 claims 200e9 MD5/s onn 8 GPUs
09:15:16 <shachaf> Presumably fairly recent GPUs because it's a recent paste.
09:16:36 <shachaf> > logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60*24*1000
09:16:50 <shachaf> So if you ran 1000 of those systems for day that would be pretty close.
09:16:59 <int-e> OTOH, BTC is doing 50e18 SHA1 hashes per second.
09:18:09 <int-e> And that's currently worth about $100k per 10 minutes.
09:18:40 <shachaf> Oh, but we only need 1 second.
09:18:48 <int-e> So if one could harness that kind of power for MD5 at a similar price that would come to about $50 :)
09:19:12 <shachaf> But presumably that's amortizing the cost of ASICs and so on.
09:19:20 <int-e> That's ASIC, cheap electricity, and a huge fixed cost.
09:20:46 <int-e> hmm, right, which hash...
09:21:03 <int-e> Yeah SHA-256. My bad.
09:21:19 <shachaf> Also are those single or double hashes?
09:21:31 <shachaf> Not that it makes a big difference, really.
09:22:18 <int-e> Single I suppose because hash rate is how people sell devices? I don't know.
09:22:26 <int-e> BTC is an annoying curiosity to me, mostly.
09:22:47 <shachaf> My hash function is so powerful that it's not only preimage-resistant but also image-resistant.
09:22:59 <int-e> (More than annoying because all that electricity is being wasted.)
09:23:10 <int-e> shachaf: see argon2 ;-)
09:23:31 <shachaf> I was just thinking maybe key derivation functions qualify.
09:23:50 <shachaf> Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the whole cryptocurrency currency thing is a net negative.
09:24:46 <shachaf> One thing that's good about it is that it reminds me that even if a lot of people are really into something and think it'll change the world and so on, it might still be nonsense.
09:27:15 <shachaf> Anyway brute-force of 2^64 hashes is clearly feasible for any entity that's really serious about it.
09:27:27 <shachaf> But it seems a little too expensive to say "I told you so".
09:33:20 <int-e> I've been trying to understand differential paths for MD5 for that reason. But progress is slow, and it's not a priority.
09:35:18 <int-e> 2^50 hashes would be quite feasible.
09:35:43 <int-e> But I don't know how realistic that is, with all those fixed zero bits.
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09:36:23 <shachaf> I looked at some papers about MD5 collisions and some algorithms and they all seem very complicated.
09:37:33 <int-e> what annoys me is how so many papers start with "we use the following differential path" and never explain where that ingredient comes from.
09:38:55 <int-e> (They hardly explain what a differential path is.)
09:39:16 <shachaf> Golly. So many things to learn.
09:40:10 <int-e> But once you have that out of the way, the methods rely on computing a huge part of the message from "necessary conditions" before the "point of verification". So that fails when most of the message bits are fixed.
09:41:24 <shachaf> I remember something like that. You figure out some intermediate state and then see what bits of the hashed text must be to produce it.
09:41:48 <shachaf> Er, the text that is to be hashed, not the hash.
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10:26:23 <shachaf> Do you like SAT solver algorithms?
10:28:37 <int-e> There must be a "conflicted" pun in here.
10:29:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62757&oldid=62755 * A * (-379)
10:29:40 <shachaf> Do you like "2-watched literal"?
10:30:14 <shachaf> One fancy thing about it is that when you backtrack you don't need to undo any state.
10:31:06 <shachaf> Do you know other backtracking algorithms like that?
10:32:39 <int-e> hmm? this is part of the unit (generally constraint) propagation, not of the backtracking/backjumping.
10:33:10 <shachaf> I mean: Other backtracking algorithms that keep track of state that explicitly doesn't need to be rewound.
10:36:40 <int-e> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.92.705 is worth a look... it just drops constraints during backtrack/backjump, but keeps all other changes to the tableux.
10:38:32 <shachaf> Do you know how well fancy SAT solvers do at exact cover compared to dancing links?
10:39:50 <shachaf> Hmm, that paper looks interesting, I should read it.
10:46:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62758&oldid=62508 * A * (+12) bitch is TC
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10:54:12 <wob_jonas> adu: unclear, but I argue on the wiki that MMIX is an esolang
11:01:15 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62759&oldid=62736 * A * (+46)
11:02:32 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62760&oldid=62759 * A * (+68)
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11:14:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62761&oldid=62760 * A * (-114)
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11:38:44 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62762&oldid=62761 * A * (+79) I will undo this edit later.
11:38:55 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62763&oldid=62762 * A * (-79) Undo revision 62762 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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12:10:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Truth-machine.svg.png]]"
12:28:08 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62765&oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+1341) Add example Truth-machine using provisional notation
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12:49:11 <esowiki> [[Steps]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62766 * A * (+143) Created page with "[[Steps]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Non-textual]]"
12:52:35 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62767&oldid=62766 * A * (+455)
12:57:41 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62768&oldid=62767 * A * (+450)
12:57:55 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62769&oldid=62768 * A * (+17) /* Commands demonstrations */
12:59:54 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62770&oldid=62769 * A * (+229) /* Commands demonstrations */ : Go on and fix another section of the page.
13:04:28 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62771&oldid=62770 * A * (+212)
13:17:04 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62772&oldid=62763 * A * (+7172)
13:17:48 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62773&oldid=62772 * A * (-7172) Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}"
13:21:36 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62774&oldid=62773 * A * (+6953)
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13:31:48 <salpynx> here's hoping https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:A&oldid=62772 is enough for a troll-ban. Mocking my recent non-textual lang with the troll-page Steps probably isn't enough by itself, but fingers crossed, I'm looking fwd to a quieter wiki tomorrow!
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13:36:33 <salpynx> I don't even ... latest talk page has the removal request discussion.
13:43:47 * salpynx fumes silently.... breath deeply and don't feed the troll
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13:45:42 <Taneb> salpynx: Sticks and Stones looks pretty neat
13:47:07 <salpynx> Taneb: thanks! I've been trying to think of something physical as computation for some time, and this just occurred to me today.
13:48:13 <Taneb> It's a really cool idea! I'm at work right now so I can't look at it too closely but I'm going to go into more detail when I'm free
13:48:49 <salpynx> I keep wavering as to whether I think it is TC as is or not, I'll need play with it a bit and get a feel for what it can do.
13:52:01 <salpynx> Taneb: I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
13:54:49 <salpynx> I need to get to some sleep, and I'll leave on a good note, thanks :)
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14:00:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User:A]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa
14:00:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User talk:A]] to [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa
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14:18:20 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62781&oldid=62765 * A * (+8) /* IO */ : Interesting. Though "No I/O" does not apply to "many" Turing tarpits; I think it applies to most of them.
14:20:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62782&oldid=62780 * Arseniiv * (+223) meh
14:22:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62783&oldid=62782 * A * (-223) Blanked the page
14:22:43 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62784&oldid=62779 * A * (+141)
14:24:04 <arseniiv> okay, *this* is either some psychiatric phenomenon or a clear sign of toxicity
14:24:23 <arseniiv> yeah A dump this one on your dumb too :P
14:24:49 <arseniiv> ah! I deleted the wrong word! it’s a dramaa
14:25:10 <arseniiv> what a foolish time investment
14:25:35 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62785&oldid=62519 * A * (+24) Add Sticks and Stones (Note that I made Steps independently of Sticks and Stones.)
14:25:36 <int-e> Please don't feed the animals or knock on the glass.
14:29:13 <arseniiv> should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523?
14:30:18 <arseniiv> this situation with A is a total shame :(
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14:34:48 <int-e> Well it should be one of the wiki admins who can properly delete pages and/or revisions. Everything else is pointless.
14:35:47 <arseniiv> yeah, maybe at this stage usual revertion mechanism is useless
14:36:11 <int-e> This is a pity. I feel like there's half a sensible person in A, but it's being dominated by a troll.
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14:37:13 <int-e> And I really really hope they're 13 and will grow out of this.
14:37:55 <arseniiv> I even considered to add a thing about definition of `mod` in the discussion of some lang yesterday, where they were testing (or ❝testing❞) how to write it in terms of arithmetic ops and floored division
14:39:14 <arseniiv> (that’s why I tried to ask a honest question earlier. But here we are, in the land of denial)
14:42:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62786&oldid=62757 * Helen * (+325) /* [Disproven] Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Yes you can edit it [[User:Salpynx|@Salpynx]]. Have fun!
14:42:23 <int-e> arseniiv: I saw that actually, and I thought that it's hard to ask such a question in a way that cannot be construed as offensive :)
14:43:45 <arseniiv> int-e: agree. Some topics are really tricky when talking to a stranger
14:53:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62787&oldid=62756 * Helen * (+0) Case fix: Accumulator-based -> accumulator-based (Sorry it was really bothering me)
14:56:41 <int-e> typical developer machine: svn: command not found
14:57:18 <Taneb> That's true on any machine I have access to that I know of
14:58:21 <int-e> oh well it's easy enough to install :)
14:58:53 <int-e> but I have had this computer for 19 months now and never needed subversion.
14:59:36 <int-e> . o O ( what a weird SCM. They call 'clone' 'checkout' ;-) )
15:02:01 <int-e> Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/
15:03:06 <int-e> (it's the \if (foo) \ {\ code;\ } style where braces get their own indentation level)
15:04:04 <int-e> I've always thought that it's incredibly ugly.
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15:11:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62788&oldid=62786 * Helen * (+148) .
15:12:41 <arseniiv> <int-e> Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ => nice question! I was wondering when read about it too
15:14:14 <wob_jonas> just seen on Gil Kalai's blog: Hedetniemi's conjecture about the chromatic number of direct product of graphs is disproved: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/sansation-in-the-morning-news-yaroslav-shitov-counterexamples-to-hedetniemis-conjecture/
15:15:57 <int-e> before reading: . o O ( Is this another tera-byte sized SAT-based proof? )
15:16:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: no. short proof by Yaroslav Shitov.
15:18:19 <int-e> Yeah I see. There's a reason why I wrote "before reading" there. This is the kind of thing that sometimes happens these days but I'm not unhappy to be wrong :)
15:19:11 <arseniiv> BTW is there a nontrivial esolang on musical themes? Maybe something about classical harmony (which I don’t understand but it seems a definite enough system to base things on)
15:19:20 <int-e> (and chromatic numbers are the right flavor of combinatorial property for SAT solving to be applicable in principle, of course)
15:22:26 <Taneb> Can someone briefly explain a chromatic number to a distracted Taneb?
15:23:41 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you want the elementary version or the category theory version?
15:23:57 <Taneb> wob_jonas: whichever
15:24:08 <Taneb> Both in succession, maybe?
15:24:12 <wob_jonas> Yeah, it's worth to understand both.
15:24:21 <int-e> elementary = graph theoretic?
15:24:50 <arseniiv> wow I’m in for category theory version too
15:25:05 <wob_jonas> So we consider simple graphs, which are objects made of a finite set of vertices and a finite set of edges, where each edge must be a set of two vertices.
15:25:37 <wob_jonas> We say that two vertices are neighbors in a graph if one of the edges of the graph is the set of those two vertices.
15:26:00 <wob_jonas> Sometimes vertices are drawn as funny pictures with the vertices as dots, and the edges as lines connecting the two dots containing them.
15:26:08 <wob_jonas> s/times vertices/sometimes graphs/
15:27:33 <wob_jonas> Now a coloring (or sometimes proper coloring) of a graph is a function from the vertices to a set (set of colors) such that for each edge, the two vertices in that edge (called the endpoints of that edge) are mapped to different values (colors) by this function.
15:28:26 <wob_jonas> The chromatic number of a graph is the minimal number such that there's a coloring of that graph with that many colors, that is, a coloring whose range has that many elements.
15:29:19 <Taneb> And this is always 1 <= chromatic number <= |vertices| ?
15:29:26 <wob_jonas> Any graph has a coloring with as many coloring as it has vertices, because the identity function works. But usually we're interested in colorings with smaller set of colors.
15:29:37 <Taneb> ...unless there's zero vertices I guess
15:29:45 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, the chromatic number of a graph with no vertices is 0
15:30:32 <wob_jonas> Finding the chromatic number is considered an interesting problem, and there are tons of more fancy theorems about it, such as the famous or infamous four color theorem which says that the chromatic number of a planar graph is at most 4,
15:31:19 <wob_jonas> there's a quick algorithm to tell if a graph can be colored by 1 or 2 colors, but it's NP-complete to tell whether it can be colored by 3 colors (or any other number larger than 2),
15:31:59 <Taneb> A graph can be 1-coloured if and only if there's no edges?
15:33:04 <wob_jonas> anyway, there are a lot of theorems and conjectures about this stuff
15:33:21 <wob_jonas> And one of them is Hedetniemi's conjecture, recently disproved
15:33:25 <Taneb> I guess for two colours you can just... give it a go, because once you've assigned a vertex a colour your hand is forced
15:33:52 <wob_jonas> For that one, you have to know what the categorical product (or tensor product or direct product) of two graphs is, which is another graph.
15:34:04 <int-e> ah bipartite graphs :)
15:34:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: how do you tell "chromatic number" and "chormatic index" apart?
15:34:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: they're totally different things
15:35:04 <int-e> I know but how do you remember which one is which?
15:35:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: dunno, I'm a mathematician and researched graph theory, I just know
15:38:25 <wob_jonas> If you have a graph with vertex set V_0 and edge set E_0, and a secnd graph with vertex set V_1 and edge set E_1, then their categorical product is defined as a graph whose vertex set is the cartesian product V_0 × V_1, and the edge set is the set of {(u_0,u_1),(v_0,v_1)} such that {u_0,v_0} in E_0 and {u_1,v_1} in E_1.
15:39:44 <wob_jonas> Now an interesting thing about the categorical product is that if you have a coloring p of the first graph, then it's trivial to find a coloring p' of the product graph with the same set of colors: just make p'((v_0,v_1)) := p(v_0)
15:40:15 <wob_jonas> This means that the chromatic number of a categorical product graph is at most the min of the chromatic number of its two factors.
15:40:53 <wob_jonas> The Hedetniemi conjecture stated that there's always an equality here, you can't find a better coloring for a categorical product graph than you get from this.
15:41:04 <wob_jonas> And this conjecture is now apparently disproved.
15:41:19 <arseniiv> (also sorry about that zero remark, it’s perfectly consistent with the definition, I had a misplaced association with degree of a polynomial that time)
15:42:07 <wob_jonas> A graph is called complete if all possible edges are in it, that is, if {u,v} is in the edge set of every two different vertices u and v.
15:42:42 <wob_jonas> The chromatic number of a complete graph is equal to its number of vertices, because you must color any two vertexes a different color, so any coloring needs at least as many colors as vertices.
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15:47:00 <wob_jonas> Taneb: makes sense so far? If so, I'll tell the category theoretical view.
15:47:21 <Taneb> Yeah, I understand so far
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15:49:43 <wob_jonas> Now if we have two graphs (V_0,E_0) and (V_1,E_1), then we say that a function p is a homomorphism from the first graph to the second if it's a function from V_0 to V_1 and for every {u,v} in E_0, {p(u),p(v)} is in E_1.
15:50:50 <wob_jonas> We can use this to define what we call the category of graphs, in which the objects are each graph, and the morphisms are a graph homomorphism considered together with the two graphs it goes between.
15:52:33 <wob_jonas> An injective graph homomorphism is called a graph isomorphism, which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
15:53:02 <wob_jonas> An injective graph homomorphism whose inverse function is also a graph homomorpism is called a graph isomorpism,
15:53:06 <wob_jonas> which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
15:53:16 <wob_jonas> But that's not too important here.
15:53:51 <Taneb> Does that work out to be an isomorphism in the usual category theory sense?
15:53:54 <wob_jonas> What is important is that a graph coloring with a set of colors is exactly a homomorpism from the graph to the complete graph on the set of colors (that is, the set of colors is the set of vertices of the graph).
15:54:24 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I'm not sure, I don't really know category theory, so I don't know what counts as an isomorpihsm in the usual category theory sense... let me look that up.
15:56:01 <wob_jonas> Now the categorical product of graphs is called that because it turns out that it's exactly the product in the category theory sense in the category of graphs.
15:57:10 <wob_jonas> This means that for any two graphs G_0 and G_1, there's a homomorphism f: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_0, and a homomorphism g: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_1, plus one other property
15:58:14 <wob_jonas> If you have a coloring p: G_0 -> K_n where K_n is a complete graph on n colors, then you can compose the above morphism f with p, and you get a coloring of the product graph with n colors.
15:58:58 <Taneb> So we get the weak Hetedniemi statement for free
15:59:12 <wob_jonas> Yes, that part is trivial either way.
15:59:46 <Taneb> (I see it clearer in the category theory notation because I've got more practice with that, I gues)
16:00:10 <wob_jonas> Right, this is #esoteric, which is why I thought it was worth to know the category theoretic view.
16:00:31 <Taneb> I've got Categories for the Working Mathematician sat on my desk ;P
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16:00:59 <wob_jonas> Now there are other graph coloring questions in the broader sense that ask when there is a homomorphism from one graph to another.
16:01:55 <wob_jonas> For this, only the homomorphism type of a graph matters, where the homomorphism type of a graph G is the set of graphs H such that there's both a G -> H homomorphism and a H -> G homomorpism.
16:02:29 <wob_jonas> The homomorphism types form a sort of equivalence classes broader than the isomorphism types.
16:02:53 <wob_jonas> There are graphs that have homomorphisms to each other but aren't isomorphic, because one of them has more vertices than the other.
16:03:08 <Taneb> Can you give an example?
16:03:30 <Taneb> Oh, like the graph of a single vertex and the graph of two disconnected vertices?
16:03:31 <wob_jonas> The smallest example is an empty graph on one vertices and an empty graph on two vertices.
16:04:05 <wob_jonas> A more interesting example is a graph with two vertices and an edge between them, and a graph with four vertices and four edges going around them in a cycle (a cycle graph on four vertices).
16:04:18 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the vertices are sometimes called "nodes" too.
16:04:52 <wob_jonas> But it's worth to know (and not too hard to prove) that any isomorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism, we can consider that graph the representative of that homomorphism class.
16:05:22 <wob_jonas> In the above cases, the graph with two vertices and no edge, and the graph with two vertices and one edge are such smallest representatives.
16:05:31 <Taneb> Do you mean any homomorphism class?
16:05:50 <wob_jonas> Any homorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism
16:06:35 <wob_jonas> It's also worth to know that there are three special homomorphism classes in some sense: that of the graph with no vertices, that of the graphs with no edges, and that of 2-colorable graphs (including the one with only one edge).
16:06:58 <wob_jonas> These three homomorphism classes sit on the bottom of the partially ordered set of homomorphism classes,
16:07:34 <wob_jonas> in the sense that if a graph has a homomorphism from it to one of these classes, then that graph definitely falls into one of those homomorphism classes.
16:07:47 <wob_jonas> But these are the only simple ones, because there's no one next bigger class.
16:08:03 <wob_jonas> Above that the partial ordered set of homomorphism classes gets sort of dense.
16:08:48 <wob_jonas> In particular, you can take odd cycle graphs, which are graphs on an odd number of vertexes, with as many edges as they have vertexes, the edges connecting them cyclically.
16:09:26 <wob_jonas> There's a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 3-cycle but not backwards, a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 7-cycle but not backwards, one from the 7-cycle to the 9-cycle but not backwards, etc.
16:09:58 <wob_jonas> And there's a homomorphism from any of those cycles to the homomorphism class of 2-colorable graphs, which by the way includes any cycle graph on an _even_ number of points.
16:11:04 <Taneb> So there's a chain that goes 2-colorable < 3-cycle < 5-cycle < 7-cycle...
16:11:51 <wob_jonas> no vertexes < empty (no edges) < 2-colorable < ... < 7-cycle < 5-cycle < 3-cycle = 3-complete < 4-complete < 5-complete < ...
16:12:03 <wob_jonas> but those are just a few classes, there are much more, and they're not completely ordered
16:12:51 <Taneb> Can you give an example of two incomparable homomorphism types?
16:14:18 <wob_jonas> that's a good question, I'm not sure what a small example is, and it probably needs over a dozen vertices or something
16:14:32 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what's the simplest example
16:14:51 <wob_jonas> I'll have to leave for an hour or two now, but I can answer later I think
16:15:04 <wob_jonas> a reference book about this topic is Pavol Hell, Jaroslav Nesetril, ''Graphs and Homomorphisms''
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16:16:19 <Taneb> Don't worry about the example
16:16:53 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: an interesting introduction btw
16:17:05 <Taneb> That was an enjoyable explanation! Thank you wob_jonas
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16:43:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62789&oldid=62788 * Helen * (+7232) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Proof completed. Feel free to review!
16:44:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62790&oldid=62789 * Helen * (+16) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Fixed timestamp
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17:07:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: I thought about your question.
17:08:27 <b_jonas> The simplest examples for two grpahs with no homomorphism among them in either direction is the K_3 complete graph on three vertices (3-cycle, triangle) with the M_4 Micielsky graph, which has 11 vertices and 20 edges.
17:09:58 <b_jonas> The vertex set of the latter is {0,1,2,3,4,0',1',2',3',4',I} and the edge set is {{0,1},{0,1'},{0',1}, {1,2},{1,2'},{1',2}, {2,3},{2,3'},{2',3}, {3,4},{3,4'},{3',4}, {4,0},{4,0'},{4',0}, {0',I},{1',I},{2',I},{3',I},{4',I}}.
17:10:29 <b_jonas> The smallest example is probably K_3 with the KG_{2/5} Kneser graph, the latter has 10 vertices and 15 edges, but it's likely harder to understand why that works.
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17:59:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62791&oldid=62787 * Int-e * (+291) /* ROT13 */
18:01:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62792&oldid=62791 * Int-e * (+0) /* ROT13 */ fix link
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18:05:49 <int-e> (No big deal, but I managed to save rather than preview there... hmpf.)
18:11:32 <b_jonas> s/Micielsky graph/Mycielsky graph/
18:11:59 <myname> https://www.redbubble.com/de/people/arunsundibob/works/12126978-stress-reduction-kit?p=kids-clothes i don't think this is an apropriate potive for clothing
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18:27:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62793&oldid=62792 * Helen * (+2118) Added the [[bitch#Unclear|Unclear]] section to help with clarifying the article; Fixed general formatting and grammar.
18:28:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62794&oldid=62793 * Int-e * (-4) /* ROT13 */ golfing
18:43:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62795&oldid=62794 * Int-e * (-29) /* More Bitwise Operations */ fix typo; clarify
18:44:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62796&oldid=62795 * Int-e * (-136) /* Unclear */ that was a typo. I'll leave the section for now in case something else turns up
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20:25:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you for graph example from me too
20:32:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: am I intuit right that homomorphisms (and h. classes) of directed graph are way more disciplined?
20:33:26 <arseniiv> there at least would be no morphisms from a cycle to nonisomorphic cycle, except corner cases
20:35:08 <arseniiv> C_(2n+1) → C_(2n−1) for undirected graphs slightly surprised me even after I sat and thought how it worked
20:47:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't know what "more disciplined" means, but you can get graphs and graph homomorphisms as a special case of digraphs and digraph homomorphisms, because if you only consider symmetric digraphs (ones that have the reverse of every arc as an arc) then they behave like a grpah, and any graph can be represented as such a digraph
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20:58:47 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah I forgot about symmetric digraph
21:01:12 <rain1> what about permutive programming languages?
21:01:25 <rain1> a language where shuffling the source code effects no change
21:01:51 <rain1> and dont just put the line number before each line
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21:23:38 <arseniiv> rain1: BTW I thought about a language where you specify a figure (something amorphous, not like in Piet or fungeoids) and its geometry, or topology, should somewhat give a program. Hadn’t came up with anything concrete, though :(
21:25:48 <arseniiv> though TC cellular automata may be considered as a realization of this idea. Maybe one should require that the source figure be connected
21:27:02 <arseniiv> (hm yes, I think it definitely should be connected. But it can have holes if it’s more than 2D)
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21:30:09 <arseniiv> if it’s more than 2D => hm, why, it can have holes in this case too
21:31:14 <salpynx> rain1: re. shuffling source, string and graph rewriting langs like Thue and Eodermdrome have rules that don't have to be listed in order.
21:32:43 <salpynx> I was trying to write an Eodermdrome program to generate random numbers, but all the existing interpreters chose the first listed rule when there are multiple choices. My solution was to run my code through linux's shuf to mix up the non-deterministic parts
21:33:18 <arseniiv> if we have a 2D figure, its boundary is a curve, and I did see an esolang there that interprets turns of a curve, though IIRC, not a closed one, but it shouldn’t be an issue, though then it would be simply a reformulation of that esolang’s idea
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21:36:15 <salpynx> oh, but Thue has two sections which must be kept in order. Re-writing rules in general give you a way to shuffle without needing line numbers
21:43:15 <arseniiv> mhm, about specifically a shuffle-proof *esoteric* language, one can encode the normal code string using counts of different characters or words. E. g. from a final code, take list of all (space-delimited) words in it, sort them lexicographically, and take occurence count of each one to be the code of a character (in some encoding), resulting in a code in a certain other language. But this idea looks sort of too plain-remixy
21:44:03 <arseniiv> s/resulting in a code/resulting in a source
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21:58:23 <b_jonas> rain1: re programs where you're allowed to shuffle the source code, recent discussion about that at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-01.html#lrb
22:21:37 <salpynx> heh, I've talked about that Eodermdrome idea here before. I should just finish writing it
22:26:15 <arseniiv> hm one could try to make a language where each line describes a “molecule” (and in notation maybe akin to SMILES) and these molecules can “react”, resulting in new ones, according to set rules. I see indeterministic (in general) reactions between pairs of these molecules, some having side effects. Again this idea is too vague in this form
22:30:01 <arseniiv> I think for this idea there would be no point to stick to usual matter conservation, so the number of “atoms” of specific sort could well change in a reaction, and it would be great if the only state of the program is the pool of those molecular graphs, but it could be unsuitable
22:32:15 <arseniiv> something like this was quite possibly already described
22:54:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62798&oldid=62790 * Helen * (+16) /* Random access cell-based memory */ Changed name to be more descriptive and less wrong
22:57:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62799&oldid=62798 * Helen * (+28) Fixed other incorrect, relevant mentions of tape
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23:24:46 <orin> *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos
23:25:04 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62800&oldid=62781 * Salpynx * (+629) /* Examples */ Hello World, and basic interpreter to see it work, in case you don't live near a suitable wood and prefer computation to be done for you by computers