Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ => nice question! I was wondering when read about it too
< 1558969995 181532 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it known how it appeared?
< 1558970054 138851 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seen on Gil Kalai's blog: Hedetniemi's conjecture about the chromatic number of direct product of graphs is disproved: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/sansation-in-the-morning-news-yaroslav-shitov-counterexamples-to-hedetniemis-conjecture/
< 1558970098 334570 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :result is from this month
< 1558970157 562575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :before reading: . o O ( Is this another tera-byte sized SAT-based proof? )
< 1558970198 970149 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no. short proof by Yaroslav Shitov.
< 1558970279 236380 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I'll have to read it
< 1558970299 752068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I see. There's a reason why I wrote "before reading" there. This is the kind of thing that sometimes happens these days but I'm not unhappy to be wrong :)
< 1558970351 133054 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW is there a nontrivial esolang on musical themes? Maybe something about classical harmony (which I don’t understand but it seems a definite enough system to base things on)
< 1558970360 167313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and chromatic numbers are the right flavor of combinatorial property for SAT solving to be applicable in principle, of course)
< 1558970546 911349 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone briefly explain a chromatic number to a distracted Taneb?
< 1558970621 182710 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do you want the elementary version or the category theory version?
< 1558970637 779486 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: whichever
< 1558970648 844430 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both in succession, maybe?
< 1558970652 703355 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's worth to understand both.
< 1558970661 950012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :elementary = graph theoretic?
< 1558970690 397517 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I’m in for category theory version too
< 1558970705 678112 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we consider simple graphs, which are objects made of a finite set of vertices and a finite set of edges, where each edge must be a set of two vertices.
< 1558970737 765712 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We say that two vertices are neighbors in a graph if one of the edges of the graph is the set of those two vertices.
< 1558970760 513561 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes vertices are drawn as funny pictures with the vertices as dots, and the edges as lines connecting the two dots containing them.
< 1558970768 854475 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/times vertices/sometimes graphs/
< 1558970853 310479 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now a coloring (or sometimes proper coloring) of a graph is a function from the vertices to a set (set of colors) such that for each edge, the two vertices in that edge (called the endpoints of that edge) are mapped to different values (colors) by this function.
< 1558970906 471029 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chromatic number of a graph is the minimal number such that there's a coloring of that graph with that many colors, that is, a coloring whose range has that many elements.
< 1558970959 422255 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is always 1 <= chromatic number <= |vertices| ?
< 1558970966 686148 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any graph has a coloring with as many coloring as it has vertices, because the identity function works. But usually we're interested in colorings with smaller set of colors.
< 1558970977 487462 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...unless there's zero vertices I guess
< 1558970985 351720 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, the chromatic number of a graph with no vertices is 0
< 1558971032 965553 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finding the chromatic number is considered an interesting problem, and there are tons of more fancy theorems about it, such as the famous or infamous four color theorem which says that the chromatic number of a planar graph is at most 4,
< 1558971035 546306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zero, hm)
< 1558971079 813822 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a quick algorithm to tell if a graph can be colored by 1 or 2 colors, but it's NP-complete to tell whether it can be colored by 3 colors (or any other number larger than 2),
< 1558971119 378536 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :A graph can be 1-coloured if and only if there's no edges?
< 1558971175 277666 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes
< 1558971184 190275 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are a lot of theorems and conjectures about this stuff
< 1558971201 266325 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one of them is Hedetniemi's conjecture, recently disproved
< 1558971205 858075 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess for two colours you can just... give it a go, because once you've assigned a vertex a colour your hand is forced
< 1558971232 391852 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that one, you have to know what the categorical product (or tensor product or direct product) of two graphs is, which is another graph.
< 1558971244 74135 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah bipartite graphs :)
< 1558971277 780402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: how do you tell "chromatic number" and "chormatic index" apart?
< 1558971290 329549 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they're totally different things
< 1558971304 702030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know but how do you remember which one is which?
< 1558971323 513733 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dunno, I'm a mathematician and researched graph theory, I just know
< 1558971434 313964 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a mnemonic
< 1558971505 249122 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a graph with vertex set V_0 and edge set E_0, and a secnd graph with vertex set V_1 and edge set E_1, then their categorical product is defined as a graph whose vertex set is the cartesian product V_0 × V_1, and the edge set is the set of {(u_0,u_1),(v_0,v_1)} such that {u_0,v_0} in E_0 and {u_1,v_1} in E_1.
< 1558971584 80312 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now an interesting thing about the categorical product is that if you have a coloring p of the first graph, then it's trivial to find a coloring p' of the product graph with the same set of colors: just make p'((v_0,v_1)) := p(v_0)
< 1558971615 93454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that the chromatic number of a categorical product graph is at most the min of the chromatic number of its two factors.
< 1558971653 382707 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Hedetniemi conjecture stated that there's always an equality here, you can't find a better coloring for a categorical product graph than you get from this.
< 1558971664 345240 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this conjecture is now apparently disproved.
< 1558971679 61220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also sorry about that zero remark, it’s perfectly consistent with the definition, I had a misplaced association with degree of a polynomial that time)
< 1558971727 946802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A graph is called complete if all possible edges are in it, that is, if {u,v} is in the edge set of every two different vertices u and v.
< 1558971762 507942 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chromatic number of a complete graph is equal to its number of vertices, because you must color any two vertexes a different color, so any coloring needs at least as many colors as vertices.
< 1558971775 928151 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1558972020 629455 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: makes sense so far? If so, I'll tell the category theoretical view.
< 1558972041 395355 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I understand so far
< 1558972139 285001 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558972139 360875 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host
< 1558972139 360917 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558972183 520936 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if we have two graphs (V_0,E_0) and (V_1,E_1), then we say that a function p is a homomorphism from the first graph to the second if it's a function from V_0 to V_1 and for every {u,v} in E_0, {p(u),p(v)} is in E_1.
< 1558972250 484263 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can use this to define what we call the category of graphs, in which the objects are each graph, and the morphisms are a graph homomorphism considered together with the two graphs it goes between.
< 1558972353 478189 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An injective graph homomorphism is called a graph isomorphism, which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
< 1558972360 606016 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that's wrong
< 1558972382 810070 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An injective graph homomorphism whose inverse function is also a graph homomorpism is called a graph isomorpism,
< 1558972386 357707 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
< 1558972396 737443 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not too important here.
< 1558972431 80278 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that work out to be an isomorphism in the usual category theory sense?
< 1558972434 946330 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is important is that a graph coloring with a set of colors is exactly a homomorpism from the graph to the complete graph on the set of colors (that is, the set of colors is the set of vertices of the graph).
< 1558972464 525917 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm not sure, I don't really know category theory, so I don't know what counts as an isomorpihsm in the usual category theory sense... let me look that up.
< 1558972502 260935 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, it does
< 1558972532 571088 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right
< 1558972561 52802 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the categorical product of graphs is called that because it turns out that it's exactly the product in the category theory sense in the category of graphs.
< 1558972630 728519 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that for any two graphs G_0 and G_1, there's a homomorphism f: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_0, and a homomorphism g: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_1, plus one other property
< 1558972694 886718 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a coloring p: G_0 -> K_n where K_n is a complete graph on n colors, then you can compose the above morphism f with p, and you get a coloring of the product graph with n colors.
< 1558972738 663223 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we get the weak Hetedniemi statement for free
< 1558972752 987653 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that part is trivial either way.
< 1558972771 582550 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes
< 1558972786 78572 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I see it clearer in the category theory notation because I've got more practice with that, I gues)
< 1558972810 990572 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, this is #esoteric, which is why I thought it was worth to know the category theoretic view.
< 1558972831 311491 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got Categories for the Working Mathematician sat on my desk ;P
< 1558972848 989163 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1558972859 218066 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now there are other graph coloring questions in the broader sense that ask when there is a homomorphism from one graph to another.
< 1558972915 374185 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For this, only the homomorphism type of a graph matters, where the homomorphism type of a graph G is the set of graphs H such that there's both a G -> H homomorphism and a H -> G homomorpism.
< 1558972949 166446 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The homomorphism types form a sort of equivalence classes broader than the isomorphism types.
< 1558972973 788010 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are graphs that have homomorphisms to each other but aren't isomorphic, because one of them has more vertices than the other.
< 1558972988 869869 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you give an example?
< 1558973010 451076 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, like the graph of a single vertex and the graph of two disconnected vertices?
< 1558973011 406958 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest example is an empty graph on one vertices and an empty graph on two vertices.
< 1558973045 514472 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more interesting example is a graph with two vertices and an edge between them, and a graph with four vertices and four edges going around them in a cycle (a cycle graph on four vertices).
< 1558973058 154603 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the vertices are sometimes called "nodes" too.
< 1558973092 276546 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's worth to know (and not too hard to prove) that any isomorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism, we can consider that graph the representative of that homomorphism class.
< 1558973122 881787 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the above cases, the graph with two vertices and no edge, and the graph with two vertices and one edge are such smallest representatives.
< 1558973131 803661 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean any homomorphism class?
< 1558973142 389371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, darn it
< 1558973150 135683 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any homorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism
< 1558973195 184213 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also worth to know that there are three special homomorphism classes in some sense: that of the graph with no vertices, that of the graphs with no edges, and that of 2-colorable graphs (including the one with only one edge).
< 1558973218 621916 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These three homomorphism classes sit on the bottom of the partially ordered set of homomorphism classes,
< 1558973254 191913 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense that if a graph has a homomorphism from it to one of these classes, then that graph definitely falls into one of those homomorphism classes.
< 1558973267 737436 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But these are the only simple ones, because there's no one next bigger class.
< 1558973283 839886 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Above that the partial ordered set of homomorphism classes gets sort of dense.
< 1558973328 741121 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, you can take odd cycle graphs, which are graphs on an odd number of vertexes, with as many edges as they have vertexes, the edges connecting them cyclically.
< 1558973366 271554 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 3-cycle but not backwards, a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 7-cycle but not backwards, one from the 7-cycle to the 9-cycle but not backwards, etc.
< 1558973398 616270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a homomorphism from any of those cycles to the homomorphism class of 2-colorable graphs, which by the way includes any cycle graph on an _even_ number of points.
< 1558973464 106879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's a chain that goes 2-colorable < 3-cycle < 5-cycle < 7-cycle...
< 1558973470 863728 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1558973474 271445 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1558973476 945940 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's backwards
< 1558973480 231708 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right
< 1558973511 880978 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no vertexes < empty (no edges) < 2-colorable < ... < 7-cycle < 5-cycle < 3-cycle = 3-complete < 4-complete < 5-complete < ...
< 1558973523 933422 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are just a few classes, there are much more, and they're not completely ordered
< 1558973571 88110 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you give an example of two incomparable homomorphism types?
< 1558973658 522211 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good question, I'm not sure what a small example is, and it probably needs over a dozen vertices or something
< 1558973672 237073 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what's the simplest example
< 1558973691 796372 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to leave for an hour or two now, but I can answer later I think
< 1558973704 909649 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reference book about this topic is Pavol Hell, Jaroslav Nesetril, ''Graphs and Homomorphisms''
< 1558973739 489548 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d53dd2c2e411e461.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558973779 710778 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry about the example
< 1558973813 460129 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: an interesting introduction btw
< 1558973825 689886 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was an enjoyable explanation! Thank you wob_jonas
< 1558973845 59861 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1558974265 303360 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558974721 925428 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.195.75 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
> 1558975425 586458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62789&oldid=62788 5* 03Helen 5* (+7232) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Proof completed. Feel free to review!
> 1558975482 439935 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62790&oldid=62789 5* 03Helen 5* (+16) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Fixed timestamp
< 1558976856 541474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558976861 405735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I thought about your question.
< 1558976907 795724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simplest examples for two grpahs with no homomorphism among them in either direction is the K_3 complete graph on three vertices (3-cycle, triangle) with the M_4 Micielsky graph, which has 11 vertices and 20 edges.
< 1558976998 670897 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The vertex set of the latter is {0,1,2,3,4,0',1',2',3',4',I} and the edge set is {{0,1},{0,1'},{0',1}, {1,2},{1,2'},{1',2}, {2,3},{2,3'},{2',3}, {3,4},{3,4'},{3',4}, {4,0},{4,0'},{4',0}, {0',I},{1',I},{2',I},{3',I},{4',I}}.
< 1558977029 607076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest example is probably K_3 with the KG_{2/5} Kneser graph, the latter has 10 vertices and 15 edges, but it's likely harder to understand why that works.
< 1558977040 400691 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00d53dd2c2e411e461.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1558977268 773840 :adu!~ajr@74-92-146-235-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1558978390 625658 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
> 1558979989 940482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62791&oldid=62787 5* 03Int-e 5* (+291) 10/* ROT13 */
> 1558980105 385121 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62792&oldid=62791 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* ROT13 */ fix link
< 1558980331 246601 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1558980349 392404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No big deal, but I managed to save rather than preview there... hmpf.)
< 1558980692 104945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Micielsky graph/Mycielsky graph/
< 1558980719 42095 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.redbubble.com/de/people/arunsundibob/works/12126978-stress-reduction-kit?p=kids-clothes i don't think this is an apropriate potive for clothing
< 1558980790 201395 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0088ee4941c6a774d7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
> 1558981630 987083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62793&oldid=62792 5* 03Helen 5* (+2118) 10Added the [[bitch#Unclear|Unclear]] section to help with clarifying the article; Fixed general formatting and grammar.
> 1558981695 467341 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62794&oldid=62793 5* 03Int-e 5* (-4) 10/* ROT13 */ golfing
> 1558982583 571995 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62795&oldid=62794 5* 03Int-e 5* (-29) 10/* More Bitwise Operations */ fix typo; clarify
> 1558982652 78789 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62796&oldid=62795 5* 03Int-e 5* (-136) 10/* Unclear */ that was a typo. I'll leave the section for now in case something else turns up
< 1558983553 710988 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558983798 656613 :pushpoppeekbop!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: Bye!
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< 1558983908 385056 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1558983940 539764 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric
> 1558984218 20311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62797&oldid=62796 5* 03Int-e 5* (-9) 10/* Finishing touches */ disables the '' markup.
< 1558984419 536448 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nzdgpcoeagmafgwe QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1558985161 478209 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xurxuzhvohqvlqjh JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558985473 505412 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1558986091 421421 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbxzcosfgyghpotk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558986103 702235 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jyehrfxgokygwsba JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1558988751 408788 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: thank you for graph example from me too
< 1558989134 478943 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: am I intuit right that homomorphisms (and h. classes) of directed graph are way more disciplined?
< 1558989160 862315 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/graph/graphs
< 1558989206 278681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there at least would be no morphisms from a cycle to nonisomorphic cycle, except corner cases
< 1558989308 208912 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C_(2n+1) → C_(2n−1) for undirected graphs slightly surprised me even after I sat and thought how it worked
< 1558990037 160395 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I don't know what "more disciplined" means, but you can get graphs and graph homomorphisms as a special case of digraphs and digraph homomorphisms, because if you only consider symmetric digraphs (ones that have the reverse of every arc as an arc) then they behave like a grpah, and any graph can be represented as such a digraph
< 1558990615 107955 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey
< 1558990655 921384 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1558990727 701539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah I forgot about symmetric digraph
< 1558990789 348813 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: hello
< 1558990872 175017 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about permutive programming languages?
< 1558990885 884831 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language where shuffling the source code effects no change
< 1558990911 415238 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dont just put the line number before each line
< 1558990934 190365 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558990981 621259 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood
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< 1558991911 548161 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1558992218 109665 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: BTW I thought about a language where you specify a figure (something amorphous, not like in Piet or fungeoids) and its geometry, or topology, should somewhat give a program. Hadn’t came up with anything concrete, though :(
< 1558992348 752245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though TC cellular automata may be considered as a realization of this idea. Maybe one should require that the source figure be connected
< 1558992422 707983 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm yes, I think it definitely should be connected. But it can have holes if it’s more than 2D)
< 1558992451 610036 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1558992518 115680 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1558992609 401428 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it’s more than 2D => hm, why, it can have holes in this case too
< 1558992674 122849 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: re. shuffling source, string and graph rewriting langs like Thue and Eodermdrome have rules that don't have to be listed in order.
< 1558992763 112186 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was trying to write an Eodermdrome program to generate random numbers, but all the existing interpreters chose the first listed rule when there are multiple choices. My solution was to run my code through linux's shuf to mix up the non-deterministic parts
< 1558992798 811848 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have a 2D figure, its boundary is a curve, and I did see an esolang there that interprets turns of a curve, though IIRC, not a closed one, but it shouldn’t be an issue, though then it would be simply a reformulation of that esolang’s idea
< 1558992819 919330 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a0088ee4941c6a774d7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1558992975 823471 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but Thue has two sections which must be kept in order. Re-writing rules in general give you a way to shuffle without needing line numbers
< 1558993395 681004 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm, about specifically a shuffle-proof *esoteric* language, one can encode the normal code string using counts of different characters or words. E. g. from a final code, take list of all (space-delimited) words in it, sort them lexicographically, and take occurence count of each one to be the code of a character (in some encoding), resulting in a code in a certain other language. But this idea looks sort of too plain-remixy
< 1558993443 365974 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/resulting in a code/resulting in a source
< 1558994230 922288 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1558994303 64123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: re programs where you're allowed to shuffle the source code, recent discussion about that at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-01.html#lrb
< 1558995697 940132 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I've talked about that Eodermdrome idea here before. I should just finish writing it
< 1558995975 935408 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm one could try to make a language where each line describes a “molecule” (and in notation maybe akin to SMILES) and these molecules can “react”, resulting in new ones, according to set rules. I see indeterministic (in general) reactions between pairs of these molecules, some having side effects. Again this idea is too vague in this form
< 1558996201 911805 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for this idea there would be no point to stick to usual matter conservation, so the number of “atoms” of specific sort could well change in a reaction, and it would be great if the only state of the program is the pool of those molecular graphs, but it could be unsuitable
< 1558996335 925067 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like this was quite possibly already described
> 1558997653 914105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62798&oldid=62790 5* 03Helen 5* (+16) 10/* Random access cell-based memory */ Changed name to be more descriptive and less wrong
> 1558997862 451767 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62799&oldid=62798 5* 03Helen 5* (+28) 10Fixed other incorrect, relevant mentions of tape
< 1558997911 599120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1558999486 826056 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos
> 1558999504 276364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sticks and Stones14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62800&oldid=62781 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+629) 10/* Examples */ Hello World, and basic interpreter to see it work, in case you don't live near a suitable wood and prefer computation to be done for you by computers
< 1559000303 76776 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orin: is it in ProtoIE?
< 1559002210 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559003618 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orin: *gʷíh₃womos seems to be "we live"? 1st thematic pl. of gʷih₃wós , and the first word is .... something about stealing juice? He steals juice that we might live? Sounds Biblical.
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< 1559010573 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559015617 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ZachAttrax 5* 10New user account
< 1559015717 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1559016087 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62801&oldid=62799 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10
< 1559016562 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62802&oldid=62797 5* 03A 5* (+115) 10Another significant proof was ignored
< 1559017122 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62803&oldid=62784 5* 03A 5* (+77) 10
< 1559021253 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62804&oldid=62747 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+18) 10/* Infinite loop */
< 1559021568 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62805&oldid=62804 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (-3) 10/* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */ Fixed the bug where it would always come up saying 'empty stack'
< 1559022371 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559022436 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559027081 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Excess Flood
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< 1559028216 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559032516 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62806&oldid=62805 5* 03TuxCrafting 5* (+3) 10Undo revision 62805 by [[Special:Contributions/JonoCode9374|JonoCode9374]] ([[User talk:JonoCode9374|talk]]) dup'ing an empty stack is supposed to error. not a bug.
< 1559038367 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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< 1559044557 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1559044741 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62807&oldid=62802 5* 03Int-e 5* (+29) 10update links to new repo name
< 1559044836 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62808&oldid=62801 5* 03Int-e 5* (-2) 10update links
< 1559044899 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559045489 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, Leela (Chess Zero) is now officially the one-eyed leading the blind... it convincingly beat Stockfish in the TCEC final with a +7 score in 100 games.
< 1559045596 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though the zero is no longer quite accurate; as I understand it, Leela is incorporating tablebase endgame knowledge somehow. The keyword is "tablebase rescoring".)
< 1559045667 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
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< 1559046133 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559046147 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, python's struct.pack puts endianness modifiers before the type marker in the pack template, whereas perl puts it after.
< 1559046365 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62809&oldid=62726 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+12) 10/* P */
< 1559046417 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62810&oldid=62809 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-12) 10/* P */
< 1559046452 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:A10]]": using user page history to disrupt the wiki and attack people
< 1559046457 0 :sebbu3!?@? NICK :sebbu
< 1559046458 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62811&oldid=62810 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+12) 10/* P */
< 1559046515 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/protect14]]4 protect10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10protected "[[User:A [create=sysop] (indefinite)]]": this userpage was being used for disruption / as an attack page rather than for any beneficial purposes, thus salting
< 1559046555 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa10]]": now being used primarily as an attack page
< 1559046630 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559047049 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559047070 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62812&oldid=62744 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-4) 10
< 1559047107 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523? ← a) don't revert edits just because of who makes them, b) feel free to revert edits because of their content or because you disagree with them, c) if someone is persistently acting in an obnoxious way (making attack pages, etc.) it will probably need admin involvement to stop them, but for things that don't need admin involvement you can fix them yourself
< 1559047118 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62813&oldid=62812 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+31) 10
< 1559047199 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559047213 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559047274 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if User:A has been attacking pages in a widespread or systematic way, I can do a total or partial block, but short of that, any edits to pages created by other users should be treated on a case-by-case basis (the creator of a page doesn't have /control/ of it; but if you disagree with the meaning or style of someone else's edit, you can revert it regardless of who made the page, unless it causes a revert war)
< 1559047314 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, I guess the policy is "for small-scale problems, you can try to fix them yourself, if it becomes a large-scale problem or there's a disagreement with two people reverting back and forth, ask for admin help"
< 1559047353 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bit**14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62814 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10Redirect bit** to bitch to prevent people from offensing others
< 1559047419 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62815&oldid=62807 5* 03A 5* (+15) 10I don't want the redirect to be forgotten...
< 1559047504 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62816&oldid=62815 5* 03Ais523 5* (-15) 10Undo revision 62815 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): in the vast majority of circumstances, there is no point on linking a redirect back to the page you're currently on, and this is not an exception
< 1559047619 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559047649 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62817&oldid=62816 5* 03A 5* (+92) 10Okay. Clarify
< 1559048331 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1559048349 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62818&oldid=62808 5* 03Int-e 5* (+1418) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ revive a comment, and add a few more
< 1559048385 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62819&oldid=62818 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ (probably) correct indices
< 1559048607 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Volatile14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62820&oldid=62806 5* 03A 5* (-47) 10/* Infinite loop */
< 1559048715 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(8))
< 1559048716 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :62
< 1559048724 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))
< 1559048725 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :443
< 1559048755 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those numbers don't match what my python says. does that mean I have a fake python?
< 1559048831 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The count returned is generally one higher than you might expect" ;-)
< 1559048855 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly by induction the function should return infinity.
< 1559048922 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62821&oldid=62817 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10/* Computational class */ : Uh huh, so that was currently invalid. I will uncomment it if [[User:Helen|@Helen]] successfully proved that.
< 1559048942 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it's a different version of python
< 1559048959 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.version)
< 1559048960 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39) \ [GCC 6.3.0 20170516]
< 1559048965 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62822&oldid=62821 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* Computational class */ : Sorry, I covered a matching bracket
< 1559048972 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, no. openat(AT_FDCWD, "/usr/lib/python3.7/__pycache__/sitecustomize.cpython-37.pyc", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = 3
< 1559048990 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I bet it depends on the python packages that are installed.
< 1559049047 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :python2 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 394; python3 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 246 is what I have here atm.
< 1559049220 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62823&oldid=62819 5* 03A 5* (+7) 10/* Memory equivalence */ : Wow, it is really cool putting the signature into code snippets! (I will remove that though)
< 1559049716 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62824&oldid=62823 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10/* Memory equivalence */ move to intended place (sorry for missing that in the first place!)
< 1559049907 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62825&oldid=62824 5* 03A 5* (+212) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
< 1559050020 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62826&oldid=62825 5* 03A 5* (-46) 10/* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
< 1559050076 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Bitch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62827&oldid=62826 5* 03A 5* (-167) 10Undo revision 62826 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): No, that was wrong!
< 1559050875 0 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-146-151-103.range86-146.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Bytemark link at the bottle of the esolang wiki leads to a dead page
< 1559051007 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bottle :)
< 1559051059 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, fizzie's Bytemark's esolang contact?
< 1559052686 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an impression N ⋊_ϕ H ≅ (N ⋊_id im ϕ) × ker ϕ (group theory) but now I think it’s wrong
< 1559052696 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559053146 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62828&oldid=62783 5* 03A 5* (+1727) 10
< 1559053159 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62829&oldid=62828 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10
< 1559053171 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62830&oldid=62829 5* 03A 5* (-1744) 10Blanked the page
< 1559053314 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada
< 1559053564 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03A 5* 10moved [[02User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa10]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfa
< 1559054782 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ninja
< 1559054784 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ninja? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559054785 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? samurai
< 1559054786 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :samurai? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559054792 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? pirate
< 1559054793 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pirates are humourously nautical persons. Their grammar is friendly and plural.
< 1559055196 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559055409 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559055422 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559056105 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a001134d4532f041e6c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559057677 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10moved [[02User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa10]] to [[User talk:A]]: user talk pages shouldn't be move
< 1559057679 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559057740 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, esowiki, are you OK?
< 1559057821 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this clearly is too much drama for the bots.
< 1559057844 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even drama really, that'd require multiple people on each side of the argument
< 1559057868 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just someone being disruptive and me gradually turning their permissions lower and lower in response to them demonstrating that they can't be trusted to use them correctly
< 1559057886 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Shakespeare made a lot of drama all by himself. )
< 1559057950 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now they overflowed the bot's buffer.
< 1559058018 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's annoying because I normally use the bot to monitor esowiki's recent changes (often via the logs), now I have to check them directly
< 1559058056 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ?
< 1559058066 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is that I actually missed that A's user talk page had gotten renamed (as I was concentrating on the userpage rename), then A's further screwing about made it obvious what had happened and so I could fix it
< 1559058067 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes
< 1559058089 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being able to read #esoteric and the recent changes at the same time saves on pages to open, also the stalker-mode logs update automatically
< 1559058135 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see the bit where they joined the channel, pasted criticisms of themselves from the logs into it, and then quit?
< 1559058163 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo what's the deal
< 1559058184 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're trying to be passive-agressive but aren't very good at it
< 1559058274 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1559058277 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could be a good user if they stopped trying to test the boundaries of what's allowed and stopped intentionally antagonising people…
< 1559058291 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and stopped jumping to conclusions about computational class0
< 1559058293 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/0/)/
< 1559058302 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're going to be a complete jerk you could at least be witty about it or something
< 1559058324 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a fair deal
< 1559058336 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( and we all know how that goes )
< 1559058357 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we?
< 1559058727 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and counts too
< 1559058755 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :python's struct.unpack takes the count and endianness modifier before the type letter in the pattern
< 1559059502 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a001134d4532f041e6c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559059584 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00656d4f24e56a7ed7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559059633 0 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zoeueudwuktflxoc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1559059681 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559062134 0 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sxnrgfcxekccxbzb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559062182 0 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559062225 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're in HEXHAM. So exotic. One could even say, esoteric.
< 1559062253 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hexham
< 1559062254 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
< 1559062328 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.237.241 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559062364 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: help
< 1559062367 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing
< 1559062398 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're breaking everything
< 1559062416 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: esowiki the bot is down
< 1559062445 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the bytemark link in the footer is a 404
< 1559062477 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, did you go to hexham because #esoteric or did you somehow go there for an unrelated reason?
< 1559062568 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit from column A, a bit from column B. We're mostly driving around Northumberland, but staying a night in Hexham was #esoteric-motivated.
< 1559062586 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what's wrong with the bot though.
< 1559062595 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, because if it were coincidence, I'm not sure I could deal with it :-D
< 1559062619 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bot may have had a buffer overflow? User:A created a page with a ridiculously long name and the bot crashed when I tried to clean up after it
< 1559062689 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is fizzie the only person in this channel in Hexham?
< 1559062722 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we used to have multiple channel regulars in Hexham, which was an absurd coincidence beause it has a population of ~12000
< 1559062766 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to just cut long messages. But there could be an bug.
< 1559062786 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant believe IOCCC is done
< 1559062790 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels too soon
< 1559062805 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has it really been a year since last IOCCC
< 1559062837 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even taking the birthday paradox into account, you wouldn't a channel of 85 people to have two unrelated regulars living in the same small town
< 1559063053 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bot had indeed died of SIGSEGV. Sounds buggy.
< 1559063138 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00656d4f24e56a7ed7.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559063156 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to restart it makes it die of the same thing.
< 1559063177 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'll get this fixed before dinner. Will have a look later.
< 1559063324 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559063606 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559065317 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559065322 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00b84ce59eddb89a2e.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559066751 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559067134 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559067173 0 :arseniiv_!?@? NICK :arseniiv
< 1559067213 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is the channel log collecting process down?
< 1559067271 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the logs at esolang.org
< 1559067357 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00b84ce59eddb89a2e.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559067404 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
< 1559067405 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@lfbn-idf2-1-331-228.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559067532 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: apparently, it must be esowiki who's collecting the logs because they stopped when it segfaulted
< 1559067982 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, there could be a connection
< 1559068261 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see, fizzie already knows about the problem
< 1559068268 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(jsut checked the logs at tunes)
< 1559068413 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559068430 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559069183 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559069235 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the advancement of solid state is amazing. when I was a child, little girls had shoes with red leds built into the side of their soles, flashing red at every step they took. now little girls have shoes with multi-colored leds built into them, which can flash in various colors including blue.
< 1559069302 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one of those were transported back in time, the little girl who wore them would be an envy of all their classmates
< 1559069317 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/an envy/the envy/
< 1559069342 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: :D
< 1559069539 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559069589 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :blue leds and blue lasers, totally magical
< 1559069632 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1559069648 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember when blue LEDs were expensive and so they were a mark of high quality equipment
< 1559069658 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they became cheap and now every cheap shit from china is covered in unreasonably bright blue LEDs
< 1559069674 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps "high quality" is the wrong word but "expensive" anyway. think early 00s Sony
< 1559069704 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the past I had a computer case with a blue LED and I had to put a resistor in series to dim it
< 1559069752 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what's also pretty cool is that you can buy RGB (or RGBW) leds like WS2812 in a standard 5050 package that have a controller chip on-board, so you can build a whole string of them and control them all individually with one data line
< 1559069799 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has made projects with many LEDs tremendously less of a pain in the ass and has lead to a boom in the amount of Burning Man style blinky LED art (we have some of that in public areas in SF, it's pretty cool)
< 1559069808 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Seoul it seemed every skyscraper was covered in RGB LEDs
< 1559069832 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :soles and seoul
< 1559069856 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what's the protocol like? two power, one data? two power, one data, one clock? one power, one data?
< 1559069888 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jade plate, six eight
< 1559069898 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cheese
< 1559069899 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: power, ground and async serial (meaning it has precise timing requirements)
< 1559069899 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheese? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559069913 0 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sxnrgfcxekccxbzb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1559069923 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC even RS-232 can be driven without a clock
< 1559069933 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember offhand how many pins are actually necessary, but it isn't very many
< 1559069934 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/WS2812.pdf
< 1559069943 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: RS-232 is *always* async
< 1559069947 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way it works is to send small bursts of clock signals in between the data so that the receiver can resync
< 1559069951 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok
< 1559069967 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still async in my book, but with a method for one side to derive the clock
< 1559069979 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't arbitrarily change the timing between any two bits like you can with SPI
< 1559069987 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be called pleisiosynchronous
< 1559069999 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :another way to do that is Manchester encoding
< 1559070006 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used that for a project with a single unidirectional data line
< 1559070014 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I have a sheet of paper over the blue led of my voltage spike filtering electric socket thingy that is always on because the computer and the router are plugged into it
< 1559070029 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the WS2812 has built in PWM control with 8 bits x 3 or 4 channels of dimming
< 1559070049 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means a full framebuffer is actually outside the RAM capacity of many microcontrollers, depending of course on how many LEDs you have
< 1559070076 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to do something with the WS2812 rolls I bought last year..
< 1559070082 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the protocol given there is bizarre
< 1559070089 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold times are different for 0 bits and 1 bits
< 1559070098 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it seems a bit funky
< 1559070098 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah *shrug*
< 1559070103 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's wacky
< 1559070106 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can get libraries for most platforms
< 1559070116 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even drive it from Raspberry Pi, taking advantage of the built in PWM and DMA hardware
< 1559070164 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-Wire seems to also have fixed timing
< 1559070205 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few cool things about 1-wire: a) each device has a unique 64-bit ID b) you can have arbitrarily many on the same bus, limited only by electrical characteristics
< 1559070211 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that the protocol simplifies the circuitry in the decoder somehow
< 1559070216 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :c) you can multiplex power and data onto the same line if desired
< 1559070219 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, RS-232 uses a data line where a byte can be delayed by any amount of time, but within the byte, the bits are placed at fixed time offsets after the leading edge of the byte
< 1559070239 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1559070244 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with RS-485 and RS-422
< 1559070250 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need hardware that can interpret data with flexible timing anyway to read disks or casettes
< 1559070258 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they've had those ages ago
< 1559070263 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are pretty much the same "link layer" on top of a different hardware layer (full or half duplex differential signalling)
< 1559070274 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not too surprising that it's done on communication lines like ethernet in modern hardware
< 1559070316 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1559070322 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can expect an ethernet device to have a precise clock
< 1559070325 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :RS-232 is simpler because it uses fixed times for the bits rather than flexible times
< 1559070331 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much for a tiny cheap micro running off an internal RC oscillator
< 1559070345 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, obviously there's some tolerance because the sending side holds each bit for a short time,
< 1559070352 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not adaptive to different speeds
< 1559070360 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the casette and disk need to be
< 1559070432 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also seen designs for combining RS-232/485 and power on the same wires
< 1559070482 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :by applying a DC offset, and AC-coupling the data at the other end, while drawing power through a series inductor
< 1559070492 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what surprises me is the "power over ethernet" protocol. the power goes through two separate wires that are in addition to the four for normal ethernet. that's not the surprising part. the surprising part is that they send an immense amount of power through thin wires and tiny connectors.
< 1559070526 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that's why it uses 48 volts
< 1559070545 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it's only about an amp per conductor
< 1559070552 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still seems like a lot, yeah
< 1559070558 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most telecom stuff uses 48V
< 1559070567 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as server racks that do DC power with in the rack
< 1559070572 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people have claimed to demonstrate devices doing impossible things, e.g. producing more output than the power they're given as input, it's suspected that the results were faked via putting a DC offset on the live wire (which an AC-measuring voltmeter wouldn't see)
< 1559070585 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1559070594 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of RF amplifiers are powered through a DC offset on either the input or the output
< 1559070596 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, in general there's an obvious trend for connectors to use fewer and fewer wires
< 1559070650 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see it in USB, SD cards, SIM cards
< 1559070728 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck the WS2812 though
< 1559070742 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has obnoxiously slow pwm and I can see the pwm artifacts
< 1559070775 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: PoE uses the center taps of the transformer
< 1559070804 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *can* use the spare pairs if it’s a 10/100 device... but there are no spare pairs with gigabit Ethernet
< 1559070810 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDMI and Displayport have fewer wires than DVI too
< 1559070881 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: from the side of your eyes, or even when looking directly at it?
< 1559070888 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/eyes/vision/
< 1559070904 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when moving my eyes
< 1559070909 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes
< 1559070944 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :apa102 are much better, and have an easier protocol (basically just regular spi) too
< 1559071019 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blargh. It just immediately segfaults in std::thread::detach by jumping to 0. I think this isn't going to be something I can feasibly fix over the phone.
< 1559071043 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Won't be back home until next weekend though.
< 1559071072 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch
< 1559071087 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll backfill the logs later, but it's going to stay down for now. :/
< 1559071104 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for trying though
< 1559071107 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :PoE is so good
< 1559071149 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://goo.gl/photos/vT8E1EMwJc16TFfHA
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< 1559075569 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer having more wires if it reduces latency
< 1559075580 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically for video connectors
< 1559075637 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more wires normally improves throughput rather than latency
< 1559075648 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it depends on the protocl
< 1559075649 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*protocol
< 1559075659 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will be a small latency improvement but typically only one words' worth
< 1559075665 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559075694 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was thinking the improvement would be by having less muxing
< 1559075748 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess it depends on how much of the throughput is actually used in common circumstances
< 1559075760 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming that all of it would be, but you'd get an improvement if the throughput is mostly not used
< 1559075785 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it allows you to use your additional throughput to save latency if you've been idle for a while and suddenly have to send messages to a lot of sources at once
< 1559075791 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, destinations, not sources
< 1559075845 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, at a practical level, these thinner wires and smaller connecters are flimsy
< 1559075896 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :micro-displayport or whatever it's called
< 1559075963 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never had a video connector fray before
< 1559078035 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bruce lee
< 1559078036 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bruce lee? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559078038 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-2.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bruce Lee
< 1559078039 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bruce Lee? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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< 1559081632 0 :Lord_of_Life_!?@? NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1559083217 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1559083694 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my understanding, a delimited continuation could be stored as two continuations - the point where the delimited continuation starts, and the point where it returns to its invoker.
< 1559083725 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a delimited continuation be delimited, then, by two continuations that are themselves delimited? Does this make sense? (I'm not asking anyone, I'm just putting an idea forward.)
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< 1559085408 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do constant-time sorts better than a sorting network with some kind of non-comparison sort?
< 1559085429 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559085555 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is there, besides radix sort (which is obviously not an option) and comparison-based sorts (or min/max sort, if you want to have fixed control flow)?
< 1559085630 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know!
< 1559085653 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can implement constant-time min/max using clever bitwise tricks if you don't have an instruction for them.
< 1559085665 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe something like that can extend to more than two elements?
< 1559085705 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess bogosort can be implemented in a side-channel free fashion ;-).
< 1559085779 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any instruction set that has a min+max instruction?
< 1559086165 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know.
< 1559086226 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel has vectorized min and max (separately) at least.
< 1559086311 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1559086316 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess having a combined instruction would be hard for them... because otherwise, the architecture never has more than a single output register.
< 1559086344 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's likely that even if there was a combined min/max instruction it would become 2 microops.
< 1559086372 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for all I know, which is not too much)
< 1559087285 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559087820 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I have a suspicion that the esolangs.org/logs are not updating, what are your thoughts?
< 1559087820 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: " fnord department for, well, one of nature's born fnord. why, hadn't he? to bes pelargic the empire's only proper seaport.
< 1559087909 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true. The bot crashed on that long wiki page rename.
< 1559088126 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I thought it may have been a natural pause in the drama, but clearly not.
< 1559088155 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying.
< 1559088162 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`owrjan
< 1559088163 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
< 1559088419 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mainly interested is there was any more info on the cryptic Proto IE quote from Orin. Anything else that happened around that time is probably better lost
< 1559088443 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is there/if there/
< 1559088515 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you like PIE?
< 1559088515 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: ' but he looks the spit and fnord' people makin' cracks about bananas.' they'll say: the least we can do for him?'
< 1559088541 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIE is fine but dynamic linking is not so good.
< 1559088740 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIE is overloaded (I had to look that one up).
< 1559088759 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pooch-independent executable
< 1559089025 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
< 1559089234 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :orin: nice, I got "we live". Couldn't find the roots of the first word, and was pretty sure my best guess of "Juice-thief" was incorrect (unless "society" = juice-sapping in PIE?)
< 1559089590 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559089868 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 259 seconds
< 1559090042 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559090067 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found it: *sokʷ-yo- companion vs. *sokʷos juice/resin. I won't make that mistake again!
< 1559090077 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi
< 1559090144 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have nothing to say here, so I will quit now.)
< 1559090147 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PART #esoteric :
< 1559090217 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559090310 0 :A_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559090655 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559090757 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is something wrong with the logs?
< 1559090797 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, they have not been updating since the long page move msg
< 1559090908 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh
< 1559091229 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION merges with tunes logs
< 1559091339 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :curiously, tunes doesn't have the very last line in the other logs, i guess the bot logged it but crashed before actually saying it.
< 1559091485 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying. <-- DON'T BET ON IT
< 1559092111 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559092934 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559094216 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1559094248 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.
< 1559094264 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559094670 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559094836 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559095393 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.
< 1559095868 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559096426 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559096506 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 604 seconds
< 1559096734 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559096908 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1559097141 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: tunes?
< 1559097149 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the operating system?
< 1559097731 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: yes, although just because it's on the same site, see topic
< 1559099927 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.
< 1559099945 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559100932 0 :MDude!~MDude@74.5.156.180 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1559101794 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559101864 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have devised an idea of a sorting algorithm - I decided to call it "Got a match?", but there could be better names for this.
< 1559101880 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is a glance of the algorithm of that algorithm:
< 1559101959 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in natural language) : While the modified state does not equal to the current state: \
< 1559101996 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Put the leftmost element in the unsorted list of elements after the rightmost matching number
< 1559102014 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Delete the leftmost unborted element
< 1559102039 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the end of the list of elements is less than the beginning of that list:
< 1559102053 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Reverse-cat the whole list of elements
< 1559102110 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is it. This algorithm has certain limitations (i.e. it does not support sorting a list of elements where all elements are unique.)
< 1559102143 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will put a working demonstration of this algorithm here:
< 1559102186 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Task: Sort 123123 -> 231123 -> 311223 -> 112233
< 1559102211 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The end of the list is larger than the beginning of the list, so the algorithm ends.
< 1559102281 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This algorithm is inspired by the desire to not comparing elements of the list every time and to not waste too much space for that algorithm.)
< 1559102317 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may be confused of the last part of the algorithm: why do we need to reverse-cat the list of elements sometimes?
< 1559102333 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, an example clears up the confusion:
< 1559102403 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This example is complex; please don't mind) 32321321321 -> 23213213321 -> 32132133221 ->
< 1559102453 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :21321333221 -> 13213332221 -> 32133322211 -> 21333322211 ->
< 1559102479 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :13333222211 -> 33332222111
< 1559102513 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :13333222211 -> 33332222111 (And see, it is in reversed order. Then you would have to reverse cat that string in order to sort correctly.)
< 1559102561 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am done; any questions? (And I apoligize for using up too much space for it.)
< 1559102774 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have nothing to do here. fungot
< 1559102774 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
< 1559102786 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungot
< 1559102805 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
< 1559102806 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
< 1559102820 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
< 1559102820 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
< 1559102835 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
< 1559102835 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A__: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
< 1559102846 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
< 1559102864 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
< 1559102907 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559102938 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to stop doing the thing where you paste the text other people write.
< 1559102980 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see what I just wrote(presenting an algorithm)?
< 1559103021 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw it but I didn't read it.
< 1559103072 0 :A__!74e4b1f3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.243 PART #esoteric :
< 1559103185 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559103455 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559103680 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559104608 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-acciahbnqdqkagcm QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559104621 0 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bdfhupxnkafugszr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559104767 0 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-146-151-103.range86-146.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559104799 0 :economicsbat_!~eb@128.199.111.33 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559104925 0 :economicsbat!~eb@128.199.111.33 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559104988 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559106058 0 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wmciwysmbcheifxf JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559106112 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559106523 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559108012 0 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: *apóh₁eimi
< 1559108289 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb
< 1559108305 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559109147 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559109467 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559110256 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559110452 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559111731 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559113378 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559113385 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559113672 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 624 seconds
< 1559113764 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559113820 0 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559113939 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1559114668 0 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1559115340 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559116490 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1559117791 0 :uplime!?@? NICK :telnet
< 1559118265 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559118453 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559118772 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559118851 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f009:a5f8:689a:8cb1 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559119434 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559119648 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559119779 0 :izabera!?@? NICK :Veronica
< 1559119808 0 :Veronica!?@? NICK :Guest49041
< 1559119819 0 :Guest49041!?@? NICK :izabera
< 1559120035 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559120097 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e1c7:da6e:e573:2248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559120160 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e1c7:da6e:e573:2248 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559120259 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1559120903 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559121014 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559121266 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559121293 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559121311 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559121343 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559121343 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-68-170.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host
< 1559121343 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559122034 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e1c7:da6e:e573:2248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559122479 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559122763 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan oh no, now things may be going horribly right in the long term
< 1559122763 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1559122854 0 :Guest91!794954f8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559122868 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5
< 1559122870 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:1178) kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions. \ 787) and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 558) Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 498) now that we've cleared that u
< 1559122874 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1559122875 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:p let us hug fungot = elliott_: let's not start that again." \ 608) ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
< 1559122897 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hug?
< 1559122898 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ' he wath my only friend!' she snapped, " never mind about my son," said carrot doggedly, " i thought that's what we always used to say the verruca gnome.
< 1559122910 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style
< 1559122910 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1559122920 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches
< 1559122920 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
< 1559122927 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is upon us
< 1559122928 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: " a refutation of his whole argument? paley says, indeed, will appear beneath their dignity. the temerity of adventurers was much justified by the ill order of every state, which is always very near to it in display of gaiety, splendour, and which the disastrous events of the war against jacobinism, louis the fourteenth brittany had its states; burgundy had its states; and yet there is no such criterion, it must be raw
< 1559122938 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5
< 1559122940 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:1087) I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD. \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] I need to learn more Haskell... ..I need to get op privs. \ 1222) when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? apparently
< 1559122943 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1559122943 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:not santa claus Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 695) elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world \ 722) is tswett Warrigal?
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< 1559123550 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh does that mean that we have our own global warming theory... namely, Santa Claus died?
< 1559123562 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559123569 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really the same language, is it?
< 1559123691 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: are you talking about the obfuscated tiny C dialects?
< 1559123715 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at it in detail, but if it's a different language (and not an obvious derivative of the original) it should be discussed on a different page
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< 1559124088 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes
< 1559124118 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're two somewhat unrelated implementations
< 1559124167 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the older one is a bytecode interpreter that has some builtin functions; the newer one is bellard's compiler which "cheats" by linking symbols in from libc
< 1559124204 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The older one calls itself OC = obfuscated C. Not sure where I stand on this.
< 1559124312 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the older one uses the trick where the interpreter is written in C, but the compiler from C to the bytecode that that interpreter understands is written in the bytecode, though not in a cheating way, because both are contained in the size limit
< 1559124347 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly wonders about the copyright status of that BNF, and the licensing situation of IOCCC (especially early years).
< 1559124372 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, I'm wrong
< 1559124375 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler is written in C too
< 1559124403 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the licensing situation is quite clear: whoever submits the entry keeps all the rights
< 1559124411 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's written in C but the bytecode optimizer and compressor required to make everything fit isn't included
< 1559124451 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm,ok
< 1559124700 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably make some kind of toy compiler, though not a tiny golfed one, at some point, just for the heck of learning
< 1559124718 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and potentially teaching, if I document it properly
< 1559124803 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1559124907 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you recommend a good text teaching how to make a register allocator for a compiler to a real-world ugly CISC architecture?
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< 1559126474 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? 299792458
< 1559126475 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :299792458? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559126865 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that, another C variant?
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< 1559145558 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have thoughts on this?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Quadratic_sync_problem
< 1559145598 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the simplest problems I've found that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete (another example of a simple problem that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete is "does this recurrence relation ever reach 0?", but I think that one's less likely to be, not that either are particularly likely to be)
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< 1559147435 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: relevant keyword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell%27s_equation
< 1559147470 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's not exactly the same, but it's pretty similar
< 1559147551 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even something simple like the negative Pell equation doesn't have a known solution technique
< 1559147870 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/conwaysens.pdf
< 1559147877 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can this be applied in any way? I dont know
< 1559148393 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh these are 2 single variable quadratic forms
< 1559148400 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is f or binary quadratic form
< 1559148464 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the constants are non-negative I think you can bound x andy
< 1559148468 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then check finitely many values
< 1559148490 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pquadratic residuosity problem has no known efficient solutions
< 1559148492 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>
< 1559148507 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wel it's efficient to know if a solution exists (using legendre symbol), but not to find it?
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< 1559151379 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: the symbol doesn't always tell you if a solution exists
< 1559151415 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can tell you that it doesn't exist, but the legendre symbol's only defined for prime modulus, and the jacoby symbol is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition
< 1559151453 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit i didn't know that
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< 1559154769 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1165
< 1559154770 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1165: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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< 1559157781 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-121.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not a direct answer, but see https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/14124/8067 , especially the second paragraph of the question
< 1559157918 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The problem can be equivalently stated as follows: given b,c∈N, determine whether the quadratic x²+by−c=0 has a solution x,y∈N." …but isn't that literally quadratic residuosity?
< 1559157984 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-121.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you asked for Turing-complete or at least possibly so, I don't think that gives any such problem
< 1559157985 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no: x²+by-c=0 <=> x²=-by+c, quadratic residuosity is x²=by+c
< 1559158005 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-121.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this question is about NP problems
< 1559158007 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and given that b and y are both constrained to be be non-negative the sign flip actually makes a difference
< 1559158020 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, but quadratic residuosity being NP-complete would be a major result
< 1559158243 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, /does/ the sign flip make a difference?
< 1559158287 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if c>b² it doesn't
< 1559158302 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-121.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't help you thinking about this now, that's just a question I had come across earlier today
< 1559158322 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-121.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/tion/tion post/
< 1559158339 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's lower then it's a reduction of the "find the root" part of quadratic residuosity to a decision problem, but a different reduction from the normal one
< 1559158569 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm not misunderstanding something, this seems like it might be major news for the crypto community (although possibly not; they care about average-case complexity, NP-completeness results normally focus on the worst case)
< 1559158914 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is factoring expected to be NP-complete?
< 1559158916 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it si
< 1559158938 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes this quadratic thing being NP-complete strange, because square roots mod N is usually seen as equivalent in difficulty to factoring N
< 1559158940 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's expected to be NP-incomplete, although nobody actually knows what class it's in atm
< 1559158975 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: decision-problem quadratic residuosity can be solved in P-time via a factoring oracle, yes
< 1559159001 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :going the other way, a find-a-square-root algorithm can factor in P-time if you have a random number generator
< 1559159020 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, randomized P-time, there's always a chance your RNG doesn't cooperate
< 1559159139 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2019/04/x-3-y-3-z-3-33-has-solution-in-z-and.html
< 1559159145 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is unrelated but fun
< 1559159522 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1396122/please-help-understand-how-ax2by-c-0-is-np-complete
< 1559159532 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :subset sum encoded into 2 variable quadratic diophantine
< 1559159629 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the use of subset sum makes me think that the signs are significant
< 1559159678 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1559159682 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> the NP-complete SUBSET-SUM problem can be considered as a LINEAR DIOPHANTNE EQUATION, when you restrict your solution over positive integers. If you allow also negative solutions then it is solvable in polynomial time
< 1559159684 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:85: error: parse error on input ‘,’
< 1559159965 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's very likely that the problem you posted is NP-complete
< 1559159977 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's a superset of another problem already shown NP-complete
< 1559159983 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/only/ NP-complete?
< 1559159994 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh...
< 1559159998 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's likely to be NP-hard but am not convinced it's solvable in NP
< 1559160048 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can express "sign-flipped quadratic residuosity", thus must by the discussion above be at least NP-hard
< 1559160087 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see
< 1559160270 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no idea that such a simple diophantine equation was NP complete
< 1559160281 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read about the hilbert 10 stuff and they need lots of variables
< 1559160375 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, no, I'm not sure it /can/ express the sign flip
< 1559160414 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because now one side is increasing and the other decreasing, which prevents the simple implementation method I was hoping for working
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< 1559170532 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask zzo38 Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
< 1559170532 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1559170583 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an x86 instruction
< 1559170628 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVX-512
< 1559170692 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just came across this post. Is it written by zzo38? https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010
< 1559170860 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fused multiply and add, what's not to like ;-)
< 1559170893 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to like GF2P8AFFINEQB, but what about GF2P8AFFINEINVQB?
< 1559170980 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm I guess what's not to like is that b is an immediate.
< 1559171114 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTFISTHATQM
< 1559171196 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for that other one, the hard-coded GF(2^8).
< 1559171381 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :vbroadcastf128 [ds:esi+ecx*2+0x12345678]
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< 1559171562 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :median a b c = atMost (max a b) . atLeast (min a b) $ c
< 1559171570 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this?
< 1559172314 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
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< 1559172630 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :AVX512
< 1559172640 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka "let's make the decoder even more of a disaster"
< 1559172739 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the idea
< 1559172745 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they extended the ISA a bit *too* much
< 1559172815 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess median of 5 is a sort of important function because you need it for the linear-time median algorithm.
< 1559172830 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not actually important because that algorithm isn't actually useful?
< 1559172846 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently you can do it with 6 comparisons.
< 1559172900 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine that with the amount of transistors they put toward AVX512's sheer number of instructions, they probably could've, say, added more op-fusion possibilities instead
< 1559172930 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oplax monoidal fusion
< 1559172981 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moony's wishlist: add each individual lane of SIMD registers to the scoreboard as it's own register
< 1559173095 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont ask why
< 1559173115 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :because my reasoning is on the "how the hell would that be viable" end of things
< 1559173365 0 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the fact that a particular AVX2 only CPU (You know which one) completely plastered the i9-9920X lately, i think AVX512 may have been a bad move on intel's part
< 1559173517 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wait what's the difference between atMost and min?
< 1559173613 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: atMost = min
< 1559173638 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :clamp lo hi = atLeast lo . atMost hi
< 1559173683 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :synonyms are confusing
< 1559173696 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they?
< 1559173701 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the name atMost for min.
< 1559173709 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems v. clear
< 1559173732 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suggest that there's a difference
< 1559173744 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me at least, in programming
< 1559173758 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :atMost (atLeast a b) . atLeast (atMost a b)
< 1559173766 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's confusing.
< 1559173774 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But so is min (max a b) . max (min a b)
< 1559173785 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, that one is just fine.
< 1559173797 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's confusing that if you want to bound something below, you write max.
< 1559173804 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always have to think about which way to do it.
< 1559173810 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but I'm used to that
< 1559173812 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas with a name like atLeast it's obvious.
< 1559174042 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's confusing is that (a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) should be symmetric in a, b, c.
< 1559174096 0 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559174735 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) = (a \/ b) /\ ((a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a \/ b) /\ (c \/ b)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a /\ c) \/ b) <-- not immediately obvious :)
< 1559174814 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to write median such that it is obvious?
< 1559174880 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. almost. (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) is at least obviously symmetric.
< 1559174901 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still unclear that it's equal to its dual.
< 1559174972 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also uses five comparisons in the obvious implementation, rather than three.
< 1559174995 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the way I wrote it has four comparisons, but it does both min and max for a and b.
< 1559175023 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it has more comparisons.
< 1559175067 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you have it in that form the fact that you can use distributivity once is fairly obvious.
< 1559175082 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough.
< 1559175162 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the smaller of the three pairwise maxima" is pretty clear, at least.
< 1559175194 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it do in a poset?
< 1559175226 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ((a /\ (a \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (b \/ c) /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ a) \/ (b /\ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)
< 1559175271 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just have a poset, you won't have /\ or \/...
< 1559175278 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean lattice.
< 1559175301 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a non-distributive lattice I think the duality breaks down.
< 1559175323 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean the equation I just derived.)
< 1559175589 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-174-55-125-31.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559175963 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :lattices, yum
< 1559176057 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :does somebody know how to mend the sleeping schedule?
< 1559176115 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :go traveling to another time zone for a while hth
< 1559176142 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :try melatonin
< 1559176142 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm… too costly :D
< 1559176159 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm thanks
< 1559176168 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the excessively long slatestarcodex post about it
< 1559176194 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for narrowing down the set of slatestarcodex posts
< 1559176208 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did I tell you about my adventures with galantamine
< 1559176221 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1559176232 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I think I’ll go then, it’s morning here
< 1559176238 0 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1559176242 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i goofusamine and galantamine
< 1559176287 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1559176295 0 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559176349 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i saw a good video that had kittens in it on the internet
< 1559176355 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but unfortunately i lost it
< 1559176360 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're just going to have to imagine some kittens
< 1559176541 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1559176553 0 :TriMill!47b85b29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.184.91.41 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1559176580 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and it's actually trivial to produce an example of a lattice where that operation is not self-dual, namely the one with 3 incomparable elements, plus top and bottom elements.
< 1559176621 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("trivial" in the sense that starting with three incomparable elements is very natural for this property.)
< 1559178568 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559178669 0 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:98:4a8e:f58e:9a21 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559178907 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
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< 1559180946 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1559182844 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559184037 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
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< 1559185247 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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< 1559190445 0 :aloril__!~aloril@mobile-access-6df011-36.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: No route to host
< 1559194903 0 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559195131 0 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:69b8:808c:f1ca:d554 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
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< 1559197432 0 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-6df011-36.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559197435 0 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559197439 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559199828 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559200072 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1559201435 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559205551 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559205772 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1559205787 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559206678 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo
< 1559207068 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559207448 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559207468 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559207573 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559211373 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559211422 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559214888 0 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/oswg-member/yorick QUIT :Quit: nixos-rebuild
< 1559217016 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559217118 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559217347 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559218122 0 :sebbu3!?@? NICK :sebbu
< 1559219652 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559219688 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559220863 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559221075 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559225719 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559225758 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559229022 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at most is the nsame thing as maximum, not minimum
< 1559229120 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see... "x is at most y" is the same thing as "x = min(x,y);"
< 1559229140 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like a 'min=' operator
< 1559229257 0 :orin!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure how that would work in a functional language tho
< 1559235396 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559237559 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559239792 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559245632 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you may be interested to know, that Ted Chiang is reading "Exhalation" on Thursday June 13 at 7:30 PM at Green Apple Books (my favorite bookstore) on 9th Ave in San Francisco
< 1559245639 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe second favorite... it doesn't have a cat unfortunately
< 1559245708 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: fancy
< 1559245711 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going
< 1559245713 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure
< 1559245730 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat
< 1559245735 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat
< 1559245737 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
< 1559245746 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :legalize cats
< 1559245764 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puns are fun, but should be illegal.
< 1559245866 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get a couple of cats and name them This and That.
< 1559245879 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like This?
< 1559245889 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559245894 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1559245897 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like That
< 1559245967 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: https://i.imgur.com/LOiSViu.gifv
< 1559246001 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww
< 1559246009 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was the cat climbing her while she tried to keep her cool?
< 1559246068 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think That is possible
< 1559246096 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's on first?
< 1559246098 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though my cat is completely impossible sometimes… to bear
< 1559246454 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bear eats cat
< 1559246491 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1313
< 1559246731 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the wrong kind of esoterics for me.
< 1559246900 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: isn’t it tagged as joke? It seems too bad for a serious one
< 1559246934 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serious one?
< 1559246963 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or pretending to be non-joke
< 1559246991 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confusil.
< 1559247013 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them are definitely creepy, and joke ones, I think, are never creepy, and this one is a bear^W^W unbearable
< 1559248182 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the whole wiki is a work of fiction. I'm not in the right mood for that.
< 1559248665 0 :telnet!?@? NICK :uplime
< 1559249100 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, it is, of course
< 1559249220 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are things in which one immerses way better than this unbelievable page IMO
< 1559249943 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559250263 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So This is This and That is That: / and there's how you ad-dress a cat.
< 1559251246 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjointly dress?
< 1559251374 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( so This is That and That is This, and nothing will be what it seems )
< 1559251403 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas’s one is better
< 1559251539 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's also Eliot's.
< 1559251605 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1559251615 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reverse allusion, was it?
< 1559251751 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between that and a regular allusion?
< 1559251781 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this context, a regular allusion is not a cat.
< 1559251926 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if b_jonas cited the original, and you alluded to it earlier than that (via retcon, possilbly?), that may be called a reverse allusion, I think. If
< 1559251975 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a complicated hypothesis
< 1559252830 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1559253092 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like I randomly quoted it, and then shachaf used his crystal ball earlier to foresee that and allude to it?
< 1559253105 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's not a bad hypothesis. it matches my personality at least.
< 1559253774 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it’s not why I came with “reverse allusion” name in the first place—I just thought it’s funny that situation is in some sense reversed compared to usual allusions somehow, it was a vague feeling, but latter came the rationalization
< 1559254090 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; print "%s/ " vi*
< 1559254092 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: no such file "%s/ " \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain"
< 1559254098 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s/ " vi*
< 1559254098 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vi/ victoria/ vim/ violation/ virgil/
< 1559254110 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :virgil? is that one of mine?
< 1559254112 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? virgil
< 1559254114 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
< 1559254118 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be
< 1559254126 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? vi
< 1559254126 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? vim
< 1559254127 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vi is in a relationship with emacs.
< 1559254128 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are.
< 1559254133 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? victoria
< 1559254134 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
< 1559254135 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? violation
< 1559254137 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family.
< 1559254408 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right.. sex and violins.
< 1559254435 0 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559254597 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1559254597 0 :Lord_of_Life_!?@? NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1559254645 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what one was you looking for?
< 1559254732 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: vicuna
< 1559254776 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559254784 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, didn’t hear about these before
< 1559254943 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder, because they don't have a wisdom entry
< 1559255283 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm sounds right
< 1559255951 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.13.97 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559256293 0 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host86-146-151-103.range86-146.btcentralplus.com PART #esoteric :
< 1559256392 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :an improved Disfigure? nice
< 1559256410 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a card in the upcoming M:tG set, called Defile)
< 1559256707 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.13.97 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1559257569 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.13.97 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559257631 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559258092 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559258413 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.13.97 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1559259545 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559259773 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559261451 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1559262681 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1559263975 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559264152 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1559264385 0 :MatrixBridge!matrixirc@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wjwbjujuqejlyfea JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559264388 0 :MatrixBridge!matrixirc@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wjwbjujuqejlyfea PART #esoteric :"User left"
< 1559264489 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559264578 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1559264601 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Xylochoron
< 1559264602 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xylochoron: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
< 1559264615 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's it going
< 1559264628 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask fungot
< 1559264628 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: shortly after the war, the strength of the interests of your hearers, there to shine forever, while the world lasts, a warning to protect their own buildings ( which were without any fnord or fnord anything. will you let in a mussulman? will you hazard so desperate a step while there is any mistake about it," said clodius.
< 1559264707 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, i'm a regular on the esolangs Discord server. working on a thing to compile turing machines into cyclic tag these days....
< 1559264713 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gather you guys are not big fans of discord.
< 1559264780 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION definitely isn't
< 1559264802 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, anyway, i know i'm just like, showing up in ur server all of a sudden, but, well, some of us discorders are like, not so happy about discord ourselves, and there's this open source thing like discord called Matrix,
< 1559264807 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hail eris
< 1559264809 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm 4 sure not asking you guys to join that or anything
< 1559264811 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just like,
< 1559264816 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wondering if we can make a bridge?
< 1559264833 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know someone asked about that for discord before and i heard u guys said no, but maybe matrix would be ok?
< 1559264835 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hail discordia
< 1559264859 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't people already use Matrix with IRC?
< 1559264862 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just though i'd ask, there's a lot of us who are curious to know what you guys are all talking about but are kinda stuck on some of the features of discord :-/ riot has pretty much the same features and is open source and stuff so,
< 1559264868 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm
< 1559264874 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok sorry i'm actually just new to matrix today X-D
< 1559264880 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like tswett[m] here is doing that.
< 1559264885 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i might not be completely understanding how it works haha
< 1559264911 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made my own esolang room there, but if there's a way to just connect with you guys more directly that'd be great to
< 1559264915 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*o
< 1559264915 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I'm not the person to ask about these things but I usually don't like these bridges.
< 1559264952 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xylochoron: There already is a bridge. I'm using it right now.
< 1559264959 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i gotcha. let me actually just look into if there's a more direct way to
< 1559264960 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok!
< 1559264972 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC has plenty of problems but at least it's relatively simple and a protocol you can make your own clients for.
< 1559265025 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple isn't necesarily a huge benefit for me but like, i'm sure it is for others, to each their own i dunno?
< 1559265036 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i get on your side of the bridge tswett[m]
< 1559265037 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1559265047 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm new to matrix just today haha
< 1559265072 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just join #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org.
< 1559265081 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would love to know what u guys have been talking about. have some good friends on discord too though i hope i can convince evryone to merge or something.......
< 1559265090 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. let me try that again hang on
< 1559265099 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1559265132 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, web software is scow
< 1559265134 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559265140 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1559265226 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that the Matrix standard specifies RESTful HTTP APIs for securely transmitting and replicating JSON data between Matrix-capable clients
< 1559265245 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :are all things that describe themselves as RESTful bad
< 1559265248 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also use Discord, by the way, so I'd be interested in knowing about the esolang Discord. :D
< 1559265248 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo probably
< 1559265383 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i guess i can tell you about the esolang discord, but really over there we've been talking about switching to matrix
< 1559265399 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'd be a little weird to have some people moving that way and others this way lol
< 1559265444 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fair. :D
< 1559265452 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry could you tell me that address to add on matrix again
< 1559265477 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind found it lol
< 1559265534 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for being dumb but i'm actually having some trouble figuring out how to join from matrix
< 1559265540 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do i plug in "#freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org" :-/
< 1559265576 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to "create a new room" and typing that address into the search bar
< 1559265593 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing comes up, searching for esoteric doesn't come up with anything either
< 1559265602 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on riot.im?
< 1559265632 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right
< 1559265638 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using the desktop riot client thing,
< 1559265642 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Click on the join-a-room button, type in #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org, and hit enter.
< 1559265655 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't see any search results, but that doesn't matter.
< 1559265662 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok let me try again
< 1559265682 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559265715 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok right wow, all i had to do was hit "join" and not worry about it being in the search results duh
< 1559265715 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like you did it. :D
< 1559265723 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks cool
< 1559265726 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the Dark Side.
< 1559265736 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :u has cookies?
< 1559265778 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should be cool, i'm always worried that on discord we're talking about stuff you guys have already figured out the answer to over here haha
< 1559265834 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like how to write a loop in ///. :D
< 1559265841 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc everyone wants to know that
< 1559265847 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :slashes is best esolang
< 1559265858 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy cow, I invented /// half my life ago.
< 1559265868 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :srusly? cool
< 1559265890 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was 13 at the time, now I'm 26.
< 1559265927 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1559265971 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1559265986 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so sad i didn't get into programming when i was younger than i did, but i hope i'm making up for it in time. i'm 35 and only really started coding around 22 or so D-:
< 1559266000 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i messed around with calculator basic in middle school a little bit lol
< 1559266004 0 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you don't have to start early to be great at it
< 1559266014 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its pretty cool to hear about people making that kind of stuff at like 13
< 1559266032 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i've made some stuff so,
< 1559266041 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm like, the oldest person by far on the discord server haha
< 1559266049 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least of people who've admitted their ages,
< 1559266075 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, random point though lol
< 1559266381 0 :Xylochoron!44bb4477@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.187.68.119 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1559266613 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559267004 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene QUIT :Changing host
< 1559267004 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559267004 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Changing host
< 1559267004 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559267250 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1559270794 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559270907 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559272810 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1559274772 0 :esowiki!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559274873 0 :esowiki_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559274943 0 :esowiki_!74e4b1f4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.244 PART #esoteric :
< 1559275022 0 :esowiki!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 03:27 User talk:Groowy (diff | hist) . . (+760) . . Ais523 (talk | contribs) (Creative Commons licenses make it legal to do certain things with the work, but there are restrictions; Esolang doesn't meet those restrictions, so you can't post Creative Commons work (other than the unrestricted CC0) here)
< 1559275275 0 :esowiki!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1559275333 0 :esowiki!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559276676 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559276685 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? A
< 1559276686 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
< 1559276695 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? User:A
< 1559276696 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :User:A? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559276714 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? User:A
< 1559276715 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :User:A? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559276724 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? A
< 1559276725 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
< 1559276742 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? adu
< 1559276743 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
< 1559276749 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes?
< 1559276755 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? aloril
< 1559276756 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aloril? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559276766 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's happening
< 1559276783 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PART #esoteric :
< 1559276792 0 :esowiki!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1559276839 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_ is pretending to be the esowiki bot now.
< 1559276894 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Å
< 1559276895 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
< 1559276908 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp things on top
< 1559276909 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a:A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters. \ å:Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters. \ cocoa:A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
< 1559277502 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559277521 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Apic
< 1559277522 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apic? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559277532 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? b_jonas
< 1559277533 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
< 1559277542 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bobby
< 1559277543 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobby? ¯\(°_o)/¯
< 1559277557 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
< 1559277580 0 :a_!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559278634 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: thanks
< 1559279042 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559279047 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shachaf
< 1559279048 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
< 1559279058 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559279344 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559279347 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
< 1559279352 0 :Zsdf!74e4b1f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.228.177.242 PART #esoteric :
< 1559279686 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the deal with this person's random harassment
< 1559279689 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave me alone, a_
< 1559279782 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559279967 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559280569 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559280674 0 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART #esoteric :
< 1559282520 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf,int-e : hm, i've pondered that median thing, before
< 1559282640 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which thing?
< 1559282683 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :orin : "`x' is at most `y'" is written `x =< y'
< 1559282708 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the `(a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ... = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)' one
< 1559283047 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pondering "matching" on bags
< 1559284229 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559284232 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1559284559 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right.
< 1559286368 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559286380 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559288219 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: in that case look at the other string-rewriting esolanguages at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm
< 1559288259 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett[m]: 13 years ago, that was around 2006, right? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA is from 2007
< 1559288304 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :xylochoron[m]: basic of what calculator specifically? it's hard to guess because I don't know when you were in middle school
< 1559288318 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, "oldest person"
< 1559288323 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1559288380 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, if you were that old, you wouldn't have had a calculator with basic in middle school
< 1559289780 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, thunderstorm warning for today, sunday and monday
< 1559289953 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559290890 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-0.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1559292117 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1559292141 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559292897 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559293078 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559294022 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559295207 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559296817 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559297271 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559297454 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@24.185.132.57 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559297637 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559297823 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559297892 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559300296 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559300972 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559301587 0 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tbwztqowexzbbnsp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559302818 0 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-etsislqlhatruona JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559303525 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559303582 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice, I hadn't seen this one before. website registration form, with javascript that checks whether the password you want to set satisfies their password complexity criterion. it lists each condition in a separate line, and checks immediately during typing the password, so when you type the first capital letter, it marks "At least 1 capitalized
< 1559303582 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :letter" checked.
< 1559303623 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh
< 1559303635 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, "Avoid using '," , & ,< , >,/ special character" because they apparently aren't sure they can write working javascript or sql placeholders or something
< 1559303659 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to remove that javascript and register with a password that fails some of those criterions
< 1559303674 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :little bobby tables
< 1559303721 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559303764 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1559305374 0 :dingwat_!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fnzypqwzztfgpeae JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559305408 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfetsubgsxpxqelz QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1559305431 0 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559305449 0 :trn!~trn@prone.ws QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559305465 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ QUIT :Quit: CHEAPIE! What did you do to the bouncer?! :P (jk)
< 1559305467 0 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559305500 0 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559305546 0 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jyehrfxgokygwsba QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559305548 0 :dingwat_!?@? NICK :dingwat
< 1559305550 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-bcieqxgctslcgene QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559305553 0 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wmciwysmbcheifxf QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559305616 0 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zadsdxeddlqlkcxy JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559305692 0 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559305736 0 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ixbelvdoswrqbheb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559306625 0 :trn!~trn@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559307396 0 :sebbu3!?@? NICK :sebbu
< 1559308276 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: fun fact: (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c) implies distributivity (assuming a lattice). Fairly difficult...
< 1559309184 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds interesting
< 1559309186 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that
< 1559309220 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why. I've just proved it ;-)
< 1559309274 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shape vaguely resembles distributivity in that it swaps inner and outer \/ and /\.
< 1559309314 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But beyond that I have little intuition.
< 1559309371 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you prove that
< 1559310150 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: neat! And you don’t need bounds or negation, only lattice axioms?
< 1559310186 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1559310213 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny because my paper proof is incorrect... but I convinced Isabelle ;-)
< 1559310405 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you give any hints to Isabelle, or did it just derive the result automatically?
< 1559310427 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :let’s see… if c ↦ b, that median thing implies (a ∨ b) ∧ b = (a ∧ b) ∨ b. Hm, that’s in axioms already, wrong turn
< 1559310433 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I proved an intermediate lemma.
< 1559310514 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I used sledgehammer so there's a proof step I don't understand at all :)
< 1559310789 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I think you used distributivity in that thought.
< 1559310838 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming that c |-> b means c = c \/ b)
< 1559310942 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wrong way, that should be b \/ c = b.
< 1559311003 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do you mean, assuming that `c =< b' ?)
< 1559311053 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would rather not involve the order at all at this point.
< 1559311103 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i don't see what "if c ↦ b" or "assuming that c |-> b" even means)
< 1559311140 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it as an implication, then rewrite it as \supset ;-)
< 1559311287 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: why, I simply substituted b for c and used some associativity and idempotency
< 1559311302 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh.
< 1559311322 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am cryptic :D
< 1559311324 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then
< 1559311336 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read something else, so I gave away a bit of a hint :)
< 1559311362 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in retrospect reading it as a substitution would've made perfect sense.
< 1559311482 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a TI-89 graphing calculator with basic on it. They were introduced in 1998, when I was in 7th grade.
< 1559311494 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-89_series
< 1559311513 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cost about the same as it does today too, yay for monopoly?
< 1559311534 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :See also: https://xkcd.com/768/
< 1559311589 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I @ that guy...
< 1559311625 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :@freenode_b_jonas:matrix.org:
< 1559311626 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list
< 1559311661 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, you were in middle school when the TI-89 was already available. I don't think you're the oldest
< 1559311739 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :⌜↦⌝ is not an implication arrow, to me
< 1559311828 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: I read something that I wanted to see.
< 1559311856 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :? I’m the oldest amonth those who’ve admitted their ages on the Discord server, which is most. I think the second oldest is like 23. If there’s older people here yeah that’s great
< 1559311858 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see
< 1559311859 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :xylochoron[m] : fwiw, it's not IRC custom to prefix people's nicknames with sigils like `@', when messaging or referring to them. simply mention their nickname, e.g. at the beginning of the message, followed e.g. by a comma or a colon, and the message
< 1559311887 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok sorry!
< 1559311936 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(many IRC clients hilight a message / alert a user, if their nickname is mentioned, first thing in a message. i think not as many do that, in case the nickname is mentioned somewhere else in a message. though i think most also highlight/alert, on private message ?)
< 1559311958 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh .. and `@' already means something else on IRC (namely that the person in question is an operator on the channel))
< 1559311973 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :xylochoron[m] : just fyi :)
< 1559312030 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok thanks :-D I am a little embarrassingly new to this so just let me know thanks :-D
< 1559312033 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perhaps the other old people are ashamed to admit how old they are, on Discord ?)
< 1559312051 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it could be
< 1559312073 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 13 year olds are happy to speak up though...
< 1559312085 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was partly in jest)
< 1559312102 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok!
< 1559312126 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what discord channel?
< 1559312244 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://discordapp.com/invite/say2ERQ?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app
< 1559312281 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I can’t believe I’m within several years of 30. It feels so old :\
< 1559312285 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I old
< 1559312294 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was actually trying to convince some of those guys to switch to matrix with me but not sure how much success I’m having
< 1559312304 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me here are someone over 80
< 1559312347 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've chatted with people on IRC who're at least 70, i think
< 1559312363 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah can I please talk to an actual old person lol
< 1559312365 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least some of them behave like it
< 1559312366 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've chatted people in real life who're at least 70
< 1559312377 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool
< 1559312377 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1559312388 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird
< 1559312399 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I’m chatted with my grandmother :o :o
< 1559312416 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you could chat to two people, whose combined age is at least seventy )
< 1559312418 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s unbelievable^W^W
< 1559312424 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1559312432 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: oh, that could work too
< 1559312446 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have my hon. and learned friend fungot chatted with people who're at least 70?
< 1559312447 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: " had the reviewer's object, in whatever hands, whether high or low prices, whether he chooses to call one two, and eight grinders. its body is covered with an obscurity not to be begged. they must at length have a retreat from the malice of his adversary, by fnord cringing to the public peace. if our liberty has enfeebled the executive power, rendering government in all undertakings for the public necessities, and c
< 1559312482 0 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com QUIT :Changing host
< 1559312482 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559312491 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: hm, combined ages should indeed make things more bearable… I hope!
< 1559312514 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :My grandparents once were talking about how when you’re 60, 50 is so young, when 70 60 is young, 80 70
< 1559312514 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or smthng like that
< 1559312539 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway did int-e say that there was a hint? should I presume b ≤ c and try to make something of that?..
< 1559312557 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :xylochoron[m]: makes sense, too, yeah
< 1559312558 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps sum is not the appropriate arithmetical (geometrical ?) operation ?
< 1559312643 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we’ve seen, max is pretty boring, so maybe arithmetic-geometric mean or something
< 1559312645 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> logBase 2 (2 ** 30 + 2 ** 40)
< 1559312647 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 40.00140819439281
< 1559312674 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: hm I think base 2 is unnatural
< 1559312675 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :too close to `max', i suppose
< 1559312695 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> log (exp 30 + exp 40)
< 1559312697 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 40.00004539889922
< 1559312713 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha it’s even less useful
< 1559312717 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that much difference
< 1559312719 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> logBase 1 (1 ** 30 + 1 ** 40)
< 1559312722 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Infinity
< 1559312797 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday I learned P(Z) = Q ∪ {∞}, acted on with usual fractional-linear transformations
< 1559312830 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [30 ** log 40,40 ** log 30] -- and this is greater than sum
< 1559312833 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [281139.7457691163,281139.74576911645]
< 1559312851 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fractional-linear" ?
< 1559312872 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be that different because Z has so many non-unit elements
< 1559312948 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: I mean, x ↦ (ax + b) / (cx + d) where a, b, c, d ∈ Z
< 1559313057 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, reminds be of Möbius transformations
< 1559313083 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, they are precisely these transformations of P(C)
< 1559313095 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder whether that's related to "linear relations"
< 1559313104 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`P' being powerset ?
< 1559313104 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: P': not found
< 1559313127 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, P just stands for projectivization
< 1559313136 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. ok
< 1559313153 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though usually I’ve seen it come after something, like in RP^n
< 1559313158 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was confusing me for a bit
< 1559313182 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(RP^n is P(R^(n+1)) IIRC)
< 1559313192 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I should have foreseen :)
< 1559313196 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye
< 1559313244 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reminded of musical intervals
< 1559313276 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway
< 1559313463 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, so the "[m]" is something that the bridge of this "matrix" chat appends?
< 1559313494 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably
< 1559313499 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains a lot, because earlier I've seen a different channel with a lot of users with that in the nick
< 1559313512 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i think not all people connected via Matrix has that nickname suffix
< 1559313547 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be just a default
< 1559313672 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw `\(x,y) -> x ** logBase b y' is commutative
< 1559313777 0 :arseniiv!?@? NICK :arseniiv[hm]
< 1559313787 0 :arseniiv[hm]!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1559313802 0 :arseniiv[hm]!?@? NICK :arseniiv
< 1559313814 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/february_2019.html#february_16
< 1559313837 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baez has a diary now ?
< 1559313844 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite funfact in that regard was how gdc(fib(x), fib(y)) is supposedly fib(gdc(x, y))
< 1559313869 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never proofed it, though
< 1559313914 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, i was mostly thinking of it, in the context of modular arithmetic (so `logBase b' is the "index", the discrete logarithm, wrt the primitive root `b')
< 1559314018 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: that one is true,
< 1559314063 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: but why
< 1559314124 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a more general statement that you could conjecture but that's false: namely that for any second order linear recurrence of the form s_0 = 0; s_1 = 1; s_{k+1} = A*s_{k-2}+B*s_{k-1}; you'd get gcd(s_x,s_y)=s_{gcd(x,y)}
< 1559314132 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's interesting to find a counterexample to that
< 1559314170 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: prove at first that if k divides n then fib(k) divides fib(n), then the converse of that
< 1559314185 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use the recurrence relation directly
< 1559314205 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and look at the sequence modulo fib(k)
< 1559314254 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib is weird
< 1559314273 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.25.67 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559314302 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not
< 1559314314 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is typical for such second order linear recurrences,
< 1559314572 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the important case of s_k = 2**k - 1, which is what you get for A=-2, B=3
< 1559314596 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might already know that if k divides n, then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1)
< 1559314602 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: ^
< 1559314881 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.25.67 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559314915 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's not true in that case?
< 1559314917 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember
< 1559314938 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the direction that if k divides n then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1) is true,
< 1559314943 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just perhaps not the converse
< 1559315039 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559315154 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think both are true for that sequence
< 1559315527 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: for my part, I consider number theory an obscure discipline of magic
< 1559315946 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_lattice#Characteristic_properties
< 1559315976 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also my lemma is to show that the lattice is modular.)
< 1559317041 0 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559317225 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559317476 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@24.185.132.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559317736 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: for my part, I consider lattices an obscure discipline of magic. I'm fine with some special cases of course.
< 1559317751 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: but the statement I made isn't too deep in number theory of course
< 1559317756 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts of number theory are magic, sure
< 1559317760 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know those
< 1559317776 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that applies to more or less any branch of mathematics
< 1559317797 0 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559317827 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: mhm of course I’m not too deep in lattices, but I don’t consider them magic, it’s just something partially unknown to me, without strange feelings
< 1559317928 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the second one there looks like it seems practical for some subtyping typechecking/inference algorithms
< 1559317965 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, I still don't have a complete paper proof for this. It's kind of annoying. :)
< 1559317975 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559318159 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559319052 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1559319728 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey esofolks
< 1559319740 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are these lattice formulas decidable?
< 1559319878 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> The classical papers Ph. M. Whitman [1941] and [1942] solved the word problem
< 1559319880 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for free lattices: Whitman gave an algorithm for determining if two lattice terms
< 1559319881 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1559319881 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : Data constructor not in scope: The :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> b0 -> cerror: Va...
< 1559319881 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : • Variable not in scope: papers
< 1559319882 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(polynomials) were equal in all lattices.
< 1559319897 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like a Knuth-Bendix type thing, but for lattices?
< 1559319986 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559320075 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559320105 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible to say without having a closer look.
< 1559320164 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Knuth&Bendix' approach can fail even for equationaly theories with a decidable word problem)
< 1559320171 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*equational
< 1559320210 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Wikipedia is wrong on this... sigh.
< 1559320267 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559320392 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It claims that Knuth-Bendix completion is a semi-decision procedure, but that's only true for ordered completion, aka unfailing completion, which came quite a bit later... due to Bachmair and Dershowitz I guess?)
< 1559320556 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: it's also worth noting that the decidable word problem has little bearing on the question whether a given equation implies another in the theory of lattices; adding the first equation changes the equational theory, after all.
< 1559320589 0 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1559321869 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8c3e:ed2b:9a48:4317 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1559321934 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559322302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559322424 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559322834 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559323062 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559323559 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559324177 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
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< 1559324686 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b8ef:117a:5cf7:9c27 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559324935 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559324957 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b8ef:117a:5cf7:9c27 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1559325165 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559326056 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b8ef:117a:5cf7:9c27 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559326406 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559326585 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559326692 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559326693 0 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-udpxjpfvzclvvtkh JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559327459 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1559327538 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :xylochoron[m]: if you like the /// esolang, then among the other string-replacement languages https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm , you may want to check out https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA , which is another one where the only way to loop is to copy your source code
< 1559327556 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in that one, it's much easier to copy, because it can match more freely than just literals
< 1559327750 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559327755 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1559327872 0 :callforjudgement!?@? NICK :ais523
< 1559328338 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b8ef:117a:5cf7:9c27 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559328563 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559328769 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1559329121 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559329235 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok interesting
< 1559329266 0 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hpqncsdzlgrwmfly PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing i like about slashes is that it's TC with only two symbols, but ofc there's esolangs i like that have more than two symbols also :-P
< 1559329421 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :one symbol is all you need hth
< 1559329675 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually
< 1559329687 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's another set of such languages, though they also make copying easy:
< 1559329738 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine counts as string-rewriting, right?
< 1559330818 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559331460 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559331463 0 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559332386 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559332394 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1559332436 0 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b8ef:117a:5cf7:9c27 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559332554 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559332728 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1559333318 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1559333440 0 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559334687 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559334705 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone built a brainfuck interpreter that can execute /dev/urandom?
< 1559334863 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559335108 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559335595 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything inside the outer brackets has to be saved until that loop is finished, and if you find ] before [ then it won't be valid (but you could use ] to separate the program from the input, perhaps)
< 1559335602 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :?messages-loud
< 1559335602 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf asked 1d 21h 51m 10s ago: Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
< 1559335609 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know
< 1559336422 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559336607 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559336666 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
< 1559336683 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559336701 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soni: I'm not sure; you'd have to make the execution start running the program as it read it
< 1559336734 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's basically what Easy interpreters do, but they read input and program from the same stream so it isn't the same language as brainfuck (that's why it has a different name)
< 1559336753 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be easy enough to adapt an Easy interpreter to read input and program from different files…
< 1559336825 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any interesting quines that don't look like the classic quine?
< 1559336845 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what counts as looking like the classic quine?
< 1559336848 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of quines
< 1559336849 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that they don't have two copies of almost the same string, one quoted and one not, or something, but use some other mechanism.
< 1559336880 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in some languages you can have just one copy of most of your code and recover it
< 1559336895 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like e = '... code here ...'; eval(e)
< 1559336916 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, using the language's mechanism for it (or reading the input file) seems a bit uninteresting.
< 1559336925 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there are quines where there are two copies, but the data one is encoded so much that it doesn't look anything like the code
< 1559336932 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just a few backspaces, but completely encrypted
< 1559336951 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the code and data can intermix
< 1559336995 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect the answer to my question is no, this is more or less the only way quines can work.
< 1559337017 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's all sorts of strange language-dependent stuff like error quines
< 1559337049 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are two common classes of non-degenerate quines which don't have a large repeated section: eval quines and topological quines
< 1559337072 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (a(:^)*S):^
< 1559337072 0 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a(:^)*S):^
< 1559337093 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
< 1559337106 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559337116 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an eval quine
< 1559337119 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are topological quines?
< 1559337139 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah nice
< 1559337143 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they're quines in languages like Befunge which make use of parts of the language world which wrap around
< 1559337153 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the "repeated section" only actually appears once in the program
< 1559337185 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, so like the seek DATA,0,0 quines in perl?
< 1559337193 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which read their own source code
< 1559337199 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do those count as eval quines?
< 1559337212 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's either a topological quine or just plain cheating, depending on your point of view
< 1559337251 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :toplogical quines in Befunge normally start with an unmatched "
< 1559337262 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, there are plain cheating ones, such as ones that access a copy of the source code that's outside the source code, such as downloading them from the internet, or reading it from a different file
< 1559337272 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which puts the whole program inside the string (because the playfield wraps around, so the " matches itself), but it's /also/ outside the string so it runs after the entire thing has been placed into a string literal
< 1559337311 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1559337363 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there may be other quine patterns too, but classic/topological/eval are the three main categories I'm aware of
< 1559337394 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also double-literal quines but those probably count as cheating, they abuse a bug in codegolf.stackexchange's definition of a quine
< 1559337412 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does double-literal quines mean?
< 1559337425 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they ban literal-only quines, but in languages where programs run right to left and literals just echo themselves, you can write the same literal twice
< 1559337444 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then each of the literals prints the other, rather than each literal printing itself, so it doesn't count as literal-only
< 1559337452 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
< 1559337458 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, a literal-only quine is this sort of thing:
< 1559337460 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 123
< 1559337462 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 123
< 1559337466 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very interesting
< 1559337543 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so classic means the quine has some data and some code that prints the data twice, and one of the time it prints it it matches the data, right? and it counts even if the code and data are intermixed, or if the data is encoded in some unrecognizable way?
< 1559337599 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes it classic is that the code and data parts are mostly disjoint?
< 1559337603 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a classic quine is a program as code, + an encoding of that code as data
< 1559337630 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the encoding might be weird or whatever but it's still just a separate part of the program
< 1559337637 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then from that encoding, you generate both the code and the encoding itself
< 1559337693 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I tried to come up with a precise definition of a classic quine, but oerjan came up with a silly counterexample where you have /two/ identical data sections, each of which is used to generate the other (so that data is never used to regenerate itself)
< 1559337710 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
< 1559337741 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my quines are classic quines then, though I have some eval quines and even cheating quines
< 1559337850 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
< 1559337851 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
< 1559337895 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
< 1559337895 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
< 1559337988 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
< 1559337988 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
< 1559338139 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfnlgwh4k4ewtw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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< 1559339094 0 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out
< 1559340181 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1559340285 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I just made up the term "classic quine", I don't know what it's called.
< 1559340286 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1559340304 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cross-talk
< 1559340305 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean a quine which is generated by Lawvere's theorem or something.
< 1559340316 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559340321 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, ais523 also used "classic", so that sounds good
< 1559340496 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There isn't even a Wikipedia page for Lawvere's theorem.
< 1559340840 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Y combinator is also arguably a quine.
< 1559340854 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's a special case of diagonalization.
< 1559340891 0 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-131.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1559340951 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559340971 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Y print) is a quine
< 1559340988 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, no
< 1559340990 0 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.156.255.223 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1559340996 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it doesn't print its own source code, but its own /output/
< 1559341007 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559341056 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559341159 0 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559341268 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawvere's theorem is: In a CCC, if there's a surjective phi : A -> B^A, then every arrow f : B -> B has a fixed point
< 1559341320 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what's the quantifier on A, \exists or \forall?
< 1559341377 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists
< 1559341427 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559341452 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I shouldn't say surjective in a CCC.
< 1559341513 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find CCCs really unintuitive because there are two different vaguely function-like things (categorical arrows, and exponentials)
< 1559341542 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I find it hard to keep them apart in my head
< 1559341543 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you have an evaluation map.
< 1559341564 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the idea is that they're similar enough that you don't need to.
< 1559341653 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there are functors as well, those are also vaguely function-like
< 1559341677 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And natural transformations!
< 1559341682 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1559341693 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm one of the few people who always specifies everything involved in a natural transformation, rather than eliding
< 1559341708 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a) people get really sloppy when discussing them, and b) I find myself hopelessly confused without doing that
< 1559341715 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like whiskering notation for natural transformations?
< 1559341729 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to think it was a bad shorthand but after a while I decided it was brilliant.
< 1559341753 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :page 49 of my thesis shows the notation that I use
< 1559341758 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the whiskering notation is
< 1559341761 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whiskering is composing natural transformations and functors, as in Fε or εF
< 1559341807 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means respectively: (Fε)_x = F(ε_x) and (εF)_x = ε_{Fx}
< 1559341828 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense for /natural/ transformations, doesn't it?
< 1559341845 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much the same thing as omitting parens when you have a string of associative operatoins
< 1559341884 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`smlist 501
< 1559341885 0 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :smlist 501: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
< 1559341886 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it makes sense.
< 1559341899 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like a disaster on unnatural transformations, but people don't study those much
< 1559341906 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for your thesis now to find page 49.
< 1559341917 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the things people normally elide?
< 1559341935 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the functors, normally
< 1559341952 0 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.205.133 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559341956 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the definition of a natural transformation as a functor : CxI -> D?
< 1559341966 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the source category, but I can forgive eliding that
< 1559341969 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where I the the category with two objects and three arrows, one between the two objects.
< 1559341986 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that definition seems horrible :-D
< 1559341991 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doens't necessarily mean I don't like it
< 1559342004 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the one-sorted definition of a category?
< 1559342008 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:b9c7:d768:2a:c389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nice from the perspective that it looks a whole lot like the traditional definition of a homotopy
< 1559342024 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where you only define the arrows, and leave the objects implicit.
< 1559342034 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also define one-sorted functors and one-sorted natural transformations.
< 1559342045 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably an object is somehow identified with its identity arrow?
< 1559342067 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1559342081 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:b9c7:d768:2a:c389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the objects are good for the sake of understanding
< 1559342086 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this definition, a natural transformation : F -> G : C -> D gives an arrow in D for every arrow in C.
< 1559342092 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than merely for objects in C.
< 1559342111 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.5.188.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1559342118 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The identity arrows correpond to the usual components of a natural transformation. The non-identity arrows correspond to diagonals of the naturality square.
< 1559342222 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Lawvere's theorem says that the fixed point of f is, in pseudo-lambda calculus notation: (\x. f(phi(x)(x))) (\x. f(phi(x)(x)))
< 1559342251 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is obviously just Y.
< 1559342291 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you get Cantor's theorem and other diagonalization arguments from this as well.
< 1559342344 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :phi is the isomorphism between B and B^B that you use to talk about the untyped lambda calculus as a CCC.
< 1559342376 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can also define it in Haskell, newtype Rec a = Rec (Rec a -> a), which lets you define Y.)
< 1559343048 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see your notation now. It's very explicit.
< 1559343158 0 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559343316 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559344042 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1559344454 0 :arseniiv_!?@? NICK :arseniiv
< 1559344798 0 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.205.133 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559345065 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my variation of Along and Across? Now there is output (a single number), and you can use numbers as inputs of the along program rather than bits.
< 1559345217 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, Along and Across was designed for a very specific purpose (to attempt to work out if a specific definition of Turing-completeness was reasonable), your version doesn't achieve the same goals I had but might achiieve different goals
< 1559345223 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559345285 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, the difference in the along program inputs might not be relevant, although it isn't obvious
< 1559345323 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends what along language is in use
< 1559345346 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I should think the output doesn't change the Turing-completeness.
< 1559345497 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the output is irrelevant for TCness
< 1559345756 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make a program that just does whatever it wants
< 1559345775 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baby_Language ?
< 1559345874 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559345881 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Did you write https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010 ?
< 1559346055 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98439.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1559346819 0 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1559346925 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think so.
< 1559347040 0 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1559347043 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not really. more like, glue random things together and see what happens
< 1559347094 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we ever figure out how life started, that'll probably help us figure out how to bring it to computers
< 1559347115 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we have no idea how life works
< 1559347129 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can simulate all the chemistry and physics involved and it's all very expensive
< 1559347143 0 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but understanding how it actually works is something else entirely