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00:15:16 <int-e> hmm, fancy: https://clang.llvm.org/docs/BlockLanguageSpec.html#block-literal-expressions
00:15:42 <int-e> (every sufficiently advanced programming language invents a closure type?)
00:16:17 <int-e> (I encountered this because it made its way into OpenCL)
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00:16:31 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, they took Objective C's block syntax. I think I've seen this before.
00:16:32 <kmc> blocks have a complictaed abi https://clang.llvm.org/docs/Block-ABI-Apple.html
00:16:43 <kmc> and are mainly meant to work with the objc / apple runtime
00:16:47 <int-e> "OpenCL C 2.0 adds support for the clang block syntax."
00:17:03 <kmc> C++ lambdas are a lot more elegant
00:17:06 <shachaf> kmc: did you know you can typedef function types in c, not just function pointer types?
00:17:11 <kmc> since they are ~zero cost~
00:17:14 <kmc> shachaf: I think so
00:17:28 <int-e> . o O ( You do *not* use "C++" and "elegant" in a sentence. )
00:17:31 <shachaf> but i always saw people do it the other way
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00:17:47 <shachaf> I think lambdas are among the most reasonable of C++ features in the past decade.
00:18:11 * int-e tries to remember where he heard this "You do not use ... in a sentence." for the first time...
00:18:37 <shachaf> Though they could have been more reasonable if the language had been designed with them in mind from the beginning.
00:19:45 <kmc> the same is true of most C++11 features
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00:19:58 <shachaf> well, a lot of them are just unreasonable
00:20:17 <shachaf> c++ templates are such a joke
00:20:35 <shachaf> how do they keep making them more complicated
00:20:47 <shachaf> it's the most ridiculous local maximum
00:21:44 <shachaf> c++ templates can't even be parsed
00:23:59 <int-e> kmc: I would hope that most of that ABI is avoided by inlining.
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01:57:10 <Sgeo__> zzo38, what do you think about the London Mulligan, if you have an opinion about it?
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07:22:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63049 * JonoCode9374 * (+692) Just want some clarification about the ENC command
07:22:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63050&oldid=63049 * JonoCode9374 * (+93) Added tag
07:33:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63051&oldid=63050 * JonoCode9374 * (+238) /* The ENC Command */
07:42:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63052&oldid=63051 * JonoCode9374 * (+369) /* The CHS Command */ new section
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07:52:05 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63053&oldid=63013 * JonoCode9374 * (+849) Added python interpreter for this esolang
07:57:06 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
07:57:14 <HackEso> 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
07:57:31 <b_jonas> are old quotes excloded from quoteformat? or should we amend them?
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08:34:49 <int-e> hmm, doesn't CL_DEVICE_MAX_COMPUTE_UNITS = 10 (0xa) indicate that I should be able to subdivide the device using clCreateSubDevices ...
08:36:27 <shachaf> int-e: are you making an md5 collision
08:37:04 <int-e> There's also this: CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_MAX_SUB_DEVICES = 1
08:37:55 <int-e> shachaf: I intend to make a partial one. 80 bits, maybe 96.
08:38:55 <shachaf> Maybe I should use OpenCL.
08:38:57 <int-e> The point is really to do *something* with OpenCL.
08:39:13 <shachaf> Or maybe OpenGL compute shaders, since I was doing some other OpenGL things?
08:40:03 <int-e> (I have a single GTX 1060. It's good for about 5GH/s, for this rainbow-like application.)
08:40:45 <shachaf> I guess the right way to do this is the parallel rho algorithm?
08:41:00 <int-e> (So in addition to computing MD5, it's also taking the previous hash and constructing a message from that.)
08:42:23 <shachaf> So you need to encode the hash in a GHC identifier, I guess.
08:42:28 <shachaf> Assuming that's what you're going for.
08:43:40 <int-e> Yeah. I'm targeting the unicode range 0x20000 -- 0x27FFF, since those are all valid in ids.
08:44:25 <shachaf> > map chr [0x20000, 0x27fff]
08:44:32 <shachaf> > text $ map chr [0x20000, 0x27fff]
08:44:45 <HackEso> [U+20000 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-20000] [U+27FFF CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-27FFF]
08:45:21 <int-e> (it's a consecutive range and covers 30% of all the valid characters for identifiers)
08:45:36 <int-e> > let 𠀀𧿿 = 42 in 𠀀𧿿
08:45:40 <shachaf> > map (generalCategory . chr) [0x20000, 0x27fff, 0x28000]
08:45:42 <lambdabot> [OtherLetter,OtherLetter,OtherLetter]
08:46:25 <int-e> it's actually complicated: http://paste.debian.net/1085969/
08:46:33 <shachaf> > unwords $ [printf "%x" x | x <- 0x28000, generalCategory (chr x) /= OtherLetter]
08:46:35 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Int]) arising from the literal ‘0x28000’
08:46:40 <shachaf> > unwords $ [printf "%x" x | x <- [0x28000..], generalCategory (chr x) /= OtherLetter]
08:46:42 <lambdabot> "2a6d7 2a6d8 2a6d9 2a6da 2a6db 2a6dc 2a6dd 2a6de 2a6df 2a6e0 2a6e1 2a6e2 2a6...
08:47:19 <shachaf> > map (generalCategory . chr) [0x2a6d7]
08:51:14 <shachaf> > map length . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:51:17 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1143,1071,921,620,569,542,366,363,332,311,268,2...
08:51:45 <shachaf> > map (\(x:_) -> printf "%x" x :: String) . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:51:48 <lambdabot> ["20000","4e00","ac00","3400","2a700","a016","13000","12000","1401","16800",...
08:52:41 <int-e> > length $ filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:52:48 <shachaf> Well, what I did isn't quite correct, for two reasons. But still.
08:53:14 <int-e> > length $ filter (\x -> generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) $ ['\0'..]
08:53:34 <int-e> > 32768 / (105253+2)
08:53:43 <int-e> that's the 30% figure
08:53:45 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]
08:54:13 <int-e> "for two reasons" was nice.
08:54:37 <shachaf> It might be more than two reasons, but I thought of two.
08:54:48 <int-e> I thought you meant ' and _.
08:55:37 <shachaf> I meant that if you have OtherLetter next to UppercaseLetter or something they should count as one contiguous valid block.
08:56:01 <shachaf> And that surrogate code units and so on don't show up in ['\0'..] so it's not really contiguous.
08:56:16 <int-e> yeah the whole grouping-by-category-first is a bit weird to my mind.
08:56:32 <shachaf> > '\xd800' `elem` ['\0'..]
08:57:53 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]
08:58:07 <int-e> > (length ['\0'..], fromEnum (last ['\0'..]))
08:58:08 <shachaf> > map (\(x:_) -> printf "%x" x :: String) . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\(x:_) -> reasonableCodepoint x) . groupBy ((==) `on` reasonableCodepoint) $ ['\0'..]
08:58:13 <lambdabot> ["20000","4e00","ac00","3400","2a700","a000","13000","12000","1401","16800",...
08:58:25 <shachaf> > map length . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\(x:_) -> reasonableCodepoint x) . groupBy ((==) `on` reasonableCodepoint) $ ['\0'..]
08:58:30 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
08:58:45 <int-e> oh I see what you're really doing there.
08:58:46 <shachaf> I must've been thinking of Data.Text.
08:59:35 <int-e> > reverse . sort . map length . group . zipWith (-) [0..] . map fromEnum . filter reasonableCodepoint $ ['\0'..]
08:59:41 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
09:01:47 <shachaf> zipWith (-) [0..] is a bit odd
09:02:32 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber] || x == '\'' || x == '_'
09:02:45 <int-e> zipWith (-) [0..] maps each consecutive range to a constant.
09:03:07 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63054&oldid=63053 * JonoCode9374 * (-4) Looks like I forgot how to use html
09:03:09 <int-e> (but makes it hard to reconstruct the original values... so the proper way would be to construct a pair instead)
09:04:27 <int-e> That zipWith may be a bit too clever for its own good.
09:05:00 <shachaf> If you just want the numbers you can do something simpler.
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09:05:53 <shachaf> > reverse . sort . map length . filter (id . head) . group . map reasonableCodepoint $ ['\0'..]
09:05:58 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
09:06:21 <shachaf> good luck reconstructing the original values now hth
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09:07:13 <int-e> well, same thing... keep the old values around
09:07:43 <int-e> (did you have a "fst" there?)
09:07:44 <shachaf> gotta make sure you get the identity of the value
09:07:59 <shachaf> And then I remembered it was a list.
09:09:12 <shachaf> anyway you gotta do it on the gpu. lambdabot is too slow.
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09:43:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think it's technically even more complicated, because the middle dot is also valid inside identifier, plus there's a small set of extra identifier characters that are that only for legacy compatibility reasons (I don't know if Haskell follows that, but that's the unicode recommendation)
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10:21:57 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I was following what GHC does, which int-e posted earlier.
10:22:14 <shachaf> Unicode is in no position to dictate to languages what is or isn't an identifier.
10:22:53 <wob_jonas> it jsut gives them a reasonable default about which characters are identifier start chars and which ones are identifier continue chars, and libraries provide an implementation with that,
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10:23:27 <wob_jonas> and since that sort of thing is easy to mess up, and you need it on your computer anyway for stuff like parsing xml, it's often best to use it
10:24:04 <shachaf> I would be much happier if my computer never parsed any XML.
10:24:04 <wob_jonas> of course some languages modify the rules, like allowing hyphens, allowing apostrophes, reserving some keywords or reserving some forms of identifiers for library macros, etc
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10:24:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't like XML, but there are lots of existing data available as an XML that I want to parse because I want the contained data
10:25:08 <wob_jonas> and yes, some languages count uppercase and lowercase identifiers differently
10:27:40 <int-e> what is OpenCL's excuse for not having something like http://paste.debian.net/1085993/ ;-) (or did I miss it...)
10:29:00 <shachaf> int-e: what is c's excuse for not having that
10:29:09 <wob_jonas> There's a certain kind of esolang of which I'd like to know if it exists, and if not, whether it's possible to make it. I'll probably think more about whether it's possible, but let me ask about it because someone else might already know about it.
10:29:34 <int-e> shachaf: Well, Posix has strerror at least.
10:29:44 <wob_jonas> The esolang I'd want is a sort of djinn esolang, a functional language where you never write function bodies, but only the types of functions you define, plus data type definitions.
10:29:51 <shachaf> By the way, I have a C macro I couldn't figure out how to make fake-varargs
10:30:19 <wob_jonas> The compiler then derives the body of each function, where what the body can contain is seriously constrained by langauge rules.
10:30:29 <shachaf> #define ShowEnumVal3(val, e1, e2, e3) ((val) == (e1) ? #e1 : (val) == (e2) ? #e2 : (val) == (e3) ? #e3 : "UNKNOWN")
10:30:36 <shachaf> I have one of those for every k up to 8.
10:30:50 <int-e> (I mean, ideally each of these errors should come with a human readable description...)
10:30:58 <shachaf> But the usual cpp foreach trickery doesn't work here.
10:31:02 <wob_jonas> Only I want it to be elegant too, which includes that adding new declarations can make the program invalid because of ambiguity, but mustn't make the program valid but with a different meaning;
10:31:17 <wob_jonas> and obviously I also want the language to be powerful enough to express any program.
10:31:29 <wob_jonas> Does an esolang like this already exist?
10:32:53 <shachaf> This is used as e.g. «char *name = ShowEnumVal3(e.xmapping.request, MappingModifier, MappingKeyboard, MappingPointer);»
10:33:17 <shachaf> I think what I need is a real macro system instead of string substitution.
10:34:03 <int-e> shachaf: also, annoyingly, those values are not defined in an enum, so your macro wouldn't even help
10:34:23 <shachaf> My macro doesn't rely on enums.
10:34:35 <shachaf> (In fact most uses of it are for #defines.)
10:34:49 <shachaf> (Which is why the usual trick doesn't work.)
10:35:55 <int-e> Oh, so it does work... Hmm. Where did I go wrong earlier...
10:36:14 <shachaf> Can you believe that in the year 2019 people still write #define str(x) str2(x) and #define str2(x) #x ?
10:37:27 <shachaf> I posted my fmt macro in here, right?
10:37:48 <int-e> How bad of an idiom is sizeof(err)/sizeof(*err) ?
10:37:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no of course not. we don't define such things, we include hundred megabyte large libraries to get such a macro with a long prefixed name instead.
10:38:33 <shachaf> I have a numof() macro that checks that the type of the argument is array rather than pointer.
10:38:45 <int-e> wheels have been reinvented numerous times
10:38:50 <int-e> and that's a good thing
10:38:59 <shachaf> The check only works with gcc/clang but the macro can fall back to the standard behavior.
10:39:16 <wob_jonas> shachaf: #define str BOOST_PP_STRINGIZE
10:41:08 <wob_jonas> there's probably one smewhere in the P99 library too
10:42:50 <wob_jonas> or the G_STRINGIFY macro from glib
10:43:08 <wob_jonas> see, there's no need to define yet another one
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10:43:33 <shachaf> The point is not the overhead of defining it.
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10:44:41 <wob_jonas> incidentally, do I understand it correctly that the "g" in the name of "glib" comes from "gtk" and that comes from "gimp" and that comes from "gnu"?
10:45:01 <wob_jonas> I think "gtk" originally stood for "gimp toolkit"
10:45:16 <wob_jonas> and "gimp" stands for "GNU image manipulation program"
10:45:25 <wob_jonas> but I don't really know where the "glib" name comes from
10:46:47 <shachaf> glib stands for glib library
10:46:51 <shachaf> and gtk stands for gtk toolkit
10:47:01 <shachaf> g never stands for anything
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10:50:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63055&oldid=63052 * A * (+994) Specify
10:50:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63056&oldid=63055 * A * (+4) /* The ENC Command */ : Cosmetics
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10:55:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63057&oldid=63056 * A * (+479) /* The ENC Command */
10:58:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63058&oldid=63057 * A * (+263) /* The ENC Command */
10:59:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63059&oldid=63058 * A * (+62) /* The ENC Command */
10:59:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63060&oldid=63059 * A * (-1) /* The ENC Command */ Bad English
11:00:51 <Taneb> GPS stands for GPS positioning system
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11:01:49 <HackEso> galaxy gamemanj gaspacho gaspasjo gaspatsjo gaszpacho gazpacho gazspaczo gblh gene ray gentlebeing gey ghci ghoti ghoul ginorst glados glass glogbot glumgot gnimmargorp go goat god's number golf gonad goofix google gopher gostak grace period graham's number grammar gray greater gregor grimmargorp ground water group grue guarantee guillible
11:02:21 <shachaf> y'all went overboard with the gajpako
11:02:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63061&oldid=63060 * A * (+334) /* The CHS Command */
11:02:26 <HackEso> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
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11:02:51 <HackEso> A guillible person is someone who can be fooled with a Scheme script.
11:02:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63062&oldid=63061 * A * (+73) /* The CHS Command */ Add
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11:03:14 <HackEso> God's number is the maximum number of moves a Rubik's cube can require to solve. It is equal to 20. No, really. Look it up.
11:03:42 <HackEso> 8411:2016-06-08 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn God\'s Number/God\'s number is the maximum number of moves a Rubik\'s cube can require to solve. It is equal to 20. No, really. Look it up.
11:03:53 <HackEso> A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
11:04:17 <HackEso> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
11:04:28 <shachaf> the pen is greater than the sword
11:04:42 <HackEso> I know nothing about Gey, sir.
11:04:57 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you like digital signal processing?
11:05:05 <Taneb> Not hugely, I'm afraid
11:05:14 <Taneb> Although I haven't done it much
11:05:27 <shachaf> I agree with you, analog signal processing is better.
11:05:37 <shachaf> Do you like garbage collectors?
11:05:50 <shachaf> gc stands for gc collector presumably
11:06:17 <Taneb> No, they didn't collect my landfill garbage properly the other week, they left half of it in the wheelie bin
11:07:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63063&oldid=63062 * A * (+144) /* The ENC Command */ Add
11:07:05 <shachaf> you do wheelies with bins?
11:07:25 <shachaf> most people use bicycles or motorcycles
11:10:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63064&oldid=63063 * A * (-5)
11:14:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: except for tom7 of course
11:14:44 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63065&oldid=63048 * A * (+44) /* ENC */ That is impossible
11:19:41 <esowiki> [[Collide]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63066 * A * (+177) Created page with "[[Collide]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that features balls inside a sandbox that maps its edges. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
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11:23:50 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63067&oldid=63066 * A * (+435) Example program
11:31:54 <esowiki> [[Collide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63068&oldid=63067 * A * (+393) /* Example source code (this is not yet documented) */
11:33:15 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63069&oldid=63068 * A * (+115) /* Partial syntax */
11:33:26 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63070&oldid=63069 * A * (-8) /* Partial syntax */
11:34:40 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63071&oldid=63070 * A * (+305) /* Syntax */
11:35:02 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63072&oldid=63071 * A * (+1) /* Example source code (this is not yet documented) */
11:36:40 <esowiki> [[Collide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63073&oldid=63072 * A * (+188) /* Syntax */
11:37:33 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63074&oldid=63073 * A * (+85) /* Syntax */
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12:03:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63075&oldid=63064 * JonoCode9374 * (+220) /* The ENC Command */
12:20:14 <int-e> @let import GHC.Fingerprint
12:21:07 <int-e> > map fingerprintString ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
12:21:10 <lambdabot> [7afb892b07b256865b1116e31478f2bf,7afb892b07b256865b11353481ce648e]
12:21:21 <int-e> shachaf: ^^ 80 bit collision
12:36:44 <int-e> Now crunching a 96 bit collision at 5GH/s. So it'll be a while, but should finish within a day.
12:37:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: are you just using a dumb birthday attack, or something specific about md5?
12:39:23 <wob_jonas> dumb birthday attack, according to those numbers
12:47:59 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm doing the dumb birthday attack indeed
12:48:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: and I know that it's (almost) impractical to scale it up to a full collision.
12:49:03 <int-e> But it's unclear how to apply the differential paths based techniques when about half of the bits of the input are fixed.
12:54:07 <wob_jonas> int-e: ok. are you using those optimized cycle-based methods that let you get away with much less than a table of 2**48 hashes?
12:54:51 <wob_jonas> I found those quite interesting, and because you don't have enough RAM for 2**48 entries, but may have enough for a smaller table, it could be faster too
12:55:11 <int-e> hmm, not really cycle based... but based on distinguished elements (the rainbow table trick)
12:55:36 <wob_jonas> not cycle based, but computing deterministic chains that you can reproduce
12:56:04 <wob_jonas> and once you find two chains intersecting, you can compute them again from an earlier stage to find the first collision,
12:56:07 <int-e> 2^48/2^30 is what I'm aiming for.
12:56:41 <int-e> which is probably not the best memory/time trade-off for my hardware, but who cares.
12:57:08 <int-e> I'm only storing hashes with the 30 lowest bits zero.
12:57:18 <wob_jonas> yeah, that may be too strong, but whatever
12:57:43 <int-e> it fits my naive approach... I'm not actually storing those in memory but in a file, because I'm lazy.
12:57:43 <wob_jonas> that means you have to recompute a 2^30 long chain. how fast can you do that, since you don't have parallelism then?
12:58:10 <wob_jonas> storing them in a file is fine because the OS can cache the file in RAM
12:58:35 <wob_jonas> the point is not to have such a large database to have to spin the disk up for every access
12:59:59 <int-e> it'll take a couple of minutes
13:00:29 <int-e> on the CPU I get about 10MH/s sequentially.
13:01:35 <int-e> (with plain C code)
13:02:34 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm storing them in a text file... so sort | uniq works ;-)
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13:10:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: so what was the context for this? why did you want haskell identifiers and md5 in particular? is it md5 because of git?
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13:16:28 <wob_jonas> > map (\s -> map ord) ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
13:16:30 <lambdabot> [<[Char] -> [Int]>,<[Char] -> [Int]>]
13:16:48 <wob_jonas> > map (\s -> map ord s) ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
13:16:50 <lambdabot> [[84,153831,150310,131091,149266,154351,131093,131072,131072,131072],[84,143...
13:17:19 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '%'
13:17:31 <int-e> that was the wrong magic character.
13:17:42 <wob_jonas> no, I just wanted to decode those strings you typed
13:17:55 <int-e> > text "T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072"
13:17:58 <wob_jonas> because I didn't remember the haskell syntax
13:18:17 <wob_jonas> um, I don't much care about the particular kanji, more like the code points
13:19:11 <int-e> I used printf("\"%c\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\"\n", to generate those strings ;-)
13:21:04 <int-e> wob_jonas: the context is GHC.
13:22:07 <int-e> A collision would break the type safety of Data.Typeable.
13:22:14 <wob_jonas> their digests don't seem to match for me, how do you encode them?
13:22:40 <int-e> as big endian 32 bit unicode points.
13:22:46 <wob_jonas> I tried utf-8, utf-16be, and utf16-le
13:23:22 <wob_jonas> so that's why you said that almost half of the bits were fixed
13:25:07 <wob_jonas> yeah, I can reproduce that, the first 10 bytes of the digest match
13:25:45 <wob_jonas> and you'd need a full 128 bit collision to break Typeable?
13:26:03 <wob_jonas> and you can use just identifiers with no prefix, not even a package name?
13:26:51 <wob_jonas> it would seem strange if it didn't use a package name
13:27:06 <Taneb> (would it also have to be two valid identifiers?)
13:27:07 <int-e> yeah the package, module, and type name are hashed separately, then combined.
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintTyCon tc =
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintFingerprints [
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConPackage tc),
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConModule tc),
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConName tc)
13:27:28 <wob_jonas> Taneb: these are valid identifiers
13:27:54 <int-e> @let data T𥣧𤬦𠀓𤜒𥫯𠀕𠀀𠀀𠀀 = T𥣧𤬦𠀓𤜒𥫯𠀕𠀀𠀀𠀀
13:29:47 <int-e> The "valid identifier" restriction is also the reason for that "T", because more precisely, it has to be a valid constructor name
13:30:07 <int-e> and there are no upper case kanjis, somehow :)
13:31:27 <wob_jonas> I was wondering if this is perhaps solved by the internet somehow, but apparently no sane people hash utf-32 strings
13:31:39 <wob_jonas> utf-8 strings, sure, you can find collisions with a google search
13:32:01 <wob_jonas> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/issues/7634
13:34:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63076&oldid=62864 * A * (+188) /* Write some nonsense here */ Nonsense
13:36:48 <wob_jonas> int-e: that ticket tells the hashing works differently though: it seems to think that the package name, module name, and typename are combined before they're md5-hashed
13:38:40 <int-e> I don't know when exactly, whether it was ghc-8.0 or ghc-8.2. We have ghc-8.8 now.
13:48:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63077&oldid=62865 * A * (+310) /* List of candidates */ Add a lot of info
13:50:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63078&oldid=63076 * A * (+193) Add some nonsense(just for fun)
13:53:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63079&oldid=63078 * A * (+15)
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14:22:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63080&oldid=62948 * A * (+93) /* References */
14:52:39 <arseniiv> are ε and ℩ interdefinable? εxA = «an x such that A, if it exists (or some garbage if it doesn’t, and terms aren’t allowed to be undefined)», ℩xA = «the only x such that A (or likewise blah blah)»
14:53:46 <arseniiv> they say ∀ and ∃ are definable through any of them, though ε is in some sense more powerful; and I don’t remember about ℩
14:55:07 <arseniiv> for ε, ∃xA ≡ A[εxA / x] and ∀xA ≡ A[εx(¬A) / x]
14:58:21 <arseniiv> I’m suddenly into formal semantics of natural languages
15:02:05 <arseniiv> for example, I think the section [1] is somewhat garbage-y, and I sympathize with the text at [2], but I don’t know what level the unambiguous translation mentioned there should be, and ever at least what it should look like
15:02:06 <arseniiv> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_dicto_and_de_re#Representing_de_dicto_and_de_re_in_modal_logic
15:02:06 <arseniiv> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_descriptions#Saul_Kripke
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15:19:57 <arseniiv> also, regarding formulas in [1], I’m not only worried they miss the point, I’m also don’t quite get what should be meant by a formula □A with free variables. So I’ve read about approaches to first-order modal logics and now I’m still unsure ∃x□A is sensible
15:25:07 <arseniiv> about [1], I’ve come to think the difference shouldn’t be forced to be expressed free of speech context and that the focus is not a different translation of the syntax per se, but a different denotation of a phrase (designator, is it?) in question. In de dicto case, it isn’t bound to something in context, and in de re case, it is but a name of a thing from the context, its identity established ear
15:26:50 <wob_jonas> fungot, are you forced to expressed free of context speech and that the focus is not a different translation of syntax per se?
15:26:51 <fungot> wob_jonas: social contract. i think he will agree with fnord of common sense reasons? no; the question is, whether for war or trade; when i bring before my view the number of men in power, he holds his crown in contempt of the opinion of the intellectual eye which gives us to contemplate the fall of wise ministers and of the purity and integrity of the empire, and who serves to carry on with vigour the work of his successor, an
15:30:11 <arseniiv> so maybe it is just a plain restatement of what is already known about this phenomenon—maybe in not so different fashion, either—but I do think it shouldn’t match something too low-level. There IS speech context, and it IS being used to disambiguate the cases, so it makes sense this situation should be formalized using a formalization of this context, and not some clever transposition of ∃x and □ (or I just hope that entry is
15:30:11 <arseniiv> an unqualified one by someone who understands even less than me)
15:30:41 <fungot> arseniiv: vii. second reading of the bill which concerns my trade. i will only observe, in reference to this sphere of legislative action, with stars on his shoulders and his fnord is embittered into acrimony, strength fnord into fnord, or brissot, or fnord conventional messenger from the clouds, to firm ground and clear light. let us imitate him. our countrymen have always, even in that fugitive span he may either do some good
15:35:18 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-06-01.html#lUb "<xylochoron[m]> do you other people know enough about category theory to follow what this person's trying to do cuz i don't but it sounds interesting oh well"
15:36:28 <wob_jonas> I was wondering if I should tell xylochoron[m] that if he hangs out enough on this channel, not only will he understand the category theoretic formulation, but he'll find it natural and find the more elementary phrasings of those problems unnecessarily cumbersome, but frankly I don't understand what you guys are talking about either
15:36:30 <Taneb> I sit with a copy of Categories for the Working Mathematician on my desk. I should probably read it more
15:50:39 <arseniiv> fungot: how do you think are deontological self-actualization and ontological self-deactualization dual?
15:50:39 <fungot> arseniiv: this great work at once became fnord which everybody still knows by fnord these chiefly lay the oratorical power both of chatham and of mirabeau. there have been famous orators whose speeches we may read for the beauty of the garden, the nurture of all living things.
15:55:51 <arseniiv> re tswett[m] discussion: presentations of categories with finite limits, is it really that simple? I should look into that someday!
15:57:28 <arseniiv> though a presentation could turn out an elaborate and complex thing which is hard to understand
15:59:00 <tswett[m]> arseniiv: You can do a ton with just presentations of categories with finite limits.
15:59:09 <tswett[m]> They're... not particularly simple.
15:59:12 <arseniiv> (…as it is with group presentations, it really really is no doubt)
15:59:20 <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua.
15:59:51 <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua.
16:00:07 <tswett[m]> In particular, pretty much any kind of algebraic object can be defined by giving a presentation of a category with finite limits.
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16:00:26 <arseniiv> <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua. => ah, then you got me
16:00:57 <tswett[m]> Including—and this is the fun part—categories with finite limits.
16:01:53 <tswett[m]> Well, I shouldn't say "pretty much any kind", but you can define monoids, groups, categories, rings...
16:02:39 <arseniiv> are fields undefinable because of 1 ≠ 0 constraint? I think I heard something in that regard maybe
16:03:37 <tswett[m]> That, and the fact that division is defined everywhere except 0.
16:03:58 <tswett[m]> Now, you can define a concept that's *almost* the concept of a topos.
16:04:24 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: hm also do these presentations come with a nice internal language or what it’s called?
16:05:07 <tswett[m]> The difference is that in the definition of a topos, the word "monomorphism" is replaced with "M-morphism", where an "M-morphism" is a morphism satisfying an undefined predicate. You can assert that all M-morphisms are monomorphisms, but you cannot assert that all monomorphisms are M-morphisms.
16:06:10 <tswett[m]> Though the internal language is missing coproducts (sum types) and the initial object (the empty type).
16:06:36 <tswett[m]> Not to mention exponentials (function types).
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16:51:12 <int-e> > map fingerprintString ["T\132596\149647\150416\152631\158821\150114\131116\131072\131072","T\140399\149685\144161\143085\148849\152119\131204\131072\131072"] -- <-- shachaf, wob_jonas: I got quite lucky. GPU time: 4h, CPU time: 20m
16:51:15 <lambdabot> [9317f8f6f091ac50e1f49feb057f3098,9317f8f6f091ac50e1f49febea88f23a]
16:52:19 <int-e> (Expected GPU time was around 15h.)
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17:28:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63081 * Ais523 * (+513) the pointer instructions aren't useful because the cell values are limited
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17:53:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63082&oldid=63081 * Int-e * (+462) translate from Smallfuck
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19:57:37 <int-e> shachaf: the best thing is that the md5 implementation can be shared between OpenCL and C. https://github.com/int-e/opencl-playground/blob/master/md5_impl.h ...
19:59:02 <int-e> (It appears that the OpenCL compiler takes care of vectorizing that thing, which keeps the code plain and simple.)
20:00:09 <rain1> wow an md5 hash collision!
20:00:24 <int-e> rain1: only 96 bits
20:01:13 <int-e> I don't want to wait nor pay for ~2^64 md5 hashes :) 2^48 was just fine though.
20:01:48 <int-e> Especially since I got away with just 2^46 of them...
20:04:23 <int-e> So 1/4 sqrt(N)... which suffices only 3% of the time, I think...
20:04:49 <int-e> > 1 - exp(-(1/4)^2/2) -- should be close
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20:45:43 <arseniiv> for something completely different, maybe someone remembers when I mused about a Metamath-like system (metavariables! disjointness constraints!) with solid syntax soundness base (terms with more or less simple types, basically an enriched λ-calculus where this λ core is used solely for representing substitutions, and application to user-defined term constructors is intentionally not core λ-term application), so one can then define t
20:45:43 <arseniiv> he language and the rules and the system would check if some proof is correct, including of course checking typeability of all terms
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20:53:49 <arseniiv> then I needed an algorithm to check it there is a substitution σ such that A ≡ Bσ for given terms A, B with FV(A) ∩ FV(B) = ∅, and is there a unique smallest σ (how do they call such σ?)
20:53:49 <arseniiv> and I was sad to find I don’t know how to check it in case B ≡ CD (λ application here), as I have thought it’s sensible to think (λx. z = x)y equivalent—for this system—to y = x: and now how can I decide how many β-reductions there could be in that CD term before it would be mapped by σ to A?
20:53:49 <arseniiv> so I was stuck and left the thing alone and one day had an idea to make reductions a core inference rule for users to mention explicitly. It would not be a smooth UX, but at least I could write the thing and see if it’s any good at all. And then I forgot, and remembered only a hour ago
20:54:06 <arseniiv> maybe it would be clearer to give an example:
20:55:40 <arseniiv> ↑ this isn’t well-prepared, it should be un-β-reduced explicitly by the user to
20:55:40 <arseniiv> Given′: x = y ∧ (z.z = x)[x] → (z.z = x)[y]
20:55:40 <arseniiv> then the system could show easily that Given′ ≡ Axiom[x/X, y/Y, z.z = x/Φ] without the need to decide when exactly (x = x, x = y) ≡ (Φ[X], Φ[Y])σ and is there a unique smallest σ at all
20:59:47 <arseniiv> so maybe I’m just dumb and there is no need to test someone’s patience in writing extra things like Given’ and one could write a unifier for a general case A = (CD)σ and not fall into depths of e. g. nontermination (I hope, as all terms should be typeable, could it be enough to simplify things?..)
21:00:56 <arseniiv> oh, I forgot to make my syntax less obscure again
21:02:01 <arseniiv> in the example, X, Y, Φ, x, y, z are metavariables, =, ∧ and → are user-defined term constructors, Φ[X] is ΦX and (z.z = x) is (λz. z = x)
21:02:48 <arseniiv> very fortunately, this example doesn’t mention disjointness constraints
21:04:38 <arseniiv> they can be part of the rules and proofs, as a type of premise (other type of premises is terms, and rule conclusion can be only a term too)
21:08:57 <int-e> > let f = 85375/2^18 in 1 - exp (f^2/2)
21:09:04 <int-e> > let f = 85375/2^18 in 1 - exp (-f^2/2)
21:10:25 <int-e> 5% is still quite lucky :)
21:11:44 <shachaf> you really squandered your luck there hth
21:14:08 <int-e> Nah, I don't believe in luck being used up.
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21:32:39 <int-e> "IntelliCode uses open source GitHub projects with 100 stars or more to generate recommendations for your code."
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21:33:10 <int-e> . o O ( What could possibly go wrong... )
21:33:22 <int-e> . o O ( This may also explain why MS bought github? )
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21:41:05 <int-e> Ironically I have learned little about OpenCL... no out-of-order execution, no fancy atomic operations or shared CPU/GPU memory, no subtle memory model (yes, there is a memory model...) interactions, no pipes, no kernels spawning kernels on the OpenCL side, and no interaction with OpenGL.
21:41:52 <b_jonas> int-e: well sure, you just want to compute a lot of md5 checksums, surely that's something someone else has already coded, so you don't need to write any of the parallel code
21:41:58 <b_jonas> you only need the driver that chooses the strings etc
21:42:17 <int-e> (Instead I have a fairly long-running kernel so that the overhead of communicating with the CPU is negligible anyway. And each work item works on a couple of hundred bytes of data, all completely local.)
21:42:26 <b_jonas> I mean sure, that has to run in the gpu too
21:42:30 <b_jonas> but it's not very complicated
21:42:52 <shachaf> yes, int-e, didn't you notice the thing where instead of doing any programing you just downloaded and ran someone else's program
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21:43:14 <int-e> b_jonas: hashcat has an md5 implementation... but it seems to be specially tuned for password cracking, which surprisingly allows a few small shortcuts.
21:43:15 <shachaf> that's the reason you didn't learn anything
21:43:58 <int-e> shachaf: condescension: 10, helpfulness: 0.
21:44:20 <shachaf> i was just making a joke about how the thing b_jonas said made no sense :'(
21:44:35 <int-e> (hashcat reports 11.5MH/s in its benchmark mode on the same GPU, so I thought my 5.something was decent.)
21:44:39 <b_jonas> while generally I think GPU programming is overhyped these days (partly because "blockchain" and "deep learning" are fashionable ways to sell anything), but this is exactly the sort of thing where GPU is useful
21:44:54 <int-e> shachaf: ah, I didn't connect it to that context.
21:45:05 <int-e> . o O ( communication 1 : int-e 0. )
21:45:17 <shachaf> since obviously you did write a program so the fact that other people have written md5 implementations is irrelevant
21:46:47 <int-e> shachaf: Obviously I still had to do some basic stuff. create an OpenCL context, a command queue, a buffer, a program, a kernel... it's just that there's so much more that I didn't touch at all.
21:48:19 <shachaf> Doing the rho thing with distinguished points is presumably a little different from trying to find preimages.
21:49:17 <int-e> hashcat exploits the fact that when enumerating passwords, only a small part of the message changes... so the first half dozen values can be precomputed and never change while iterating over the last one or two chracters.
21:49:55 <shachaf> I imagine that only saves a small amount of work?
21:50:01 <int-e> And IIRC it has a trick for stopping early too. I forgot.
21:50:23 <int-e> well saving 10 out of 64 rounds (or even 5) is still a speedup.
21:50:56 <shachaf> You can compute 10 rounds without the last one or two characters?
21:51:43 <int-e> I think it was about 4 at the beginning and 4 in the end. Let me check something
21:55:29 <int-e> There's stuff like this: If you only change the 3rd word of the message in your search, then you know the message words for the last 10 rounds. And I think you can actually invert those then.
21:56:49 <int-e> (look at this: A = B + rotl(R(B, C, D) + A + K + m[j], s) -- you know the resulting A, and B,C,D,K and m[j]. So you do rotr(A - B, s) - K - m[j] - R(B,C,D)) to find the previous A.
21:57:49 <int-e> And, uh, why don't we do that with the first word... then we can reverse the last 15 rounds.
21:59:38 <int-e> > maximum [(elemIndex i [0..15] + elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9]), i) | i <- [0..15]]
21:59:40 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Num (Maybe Int)) arising from a use of ‘+’
21:59:40 <lambdabot> from the context: (Num b, Enum b, Ord b)
22:00:19 <int-e> > maximum [(fromJust (elemIndex i [0..15]) + fromJust (elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9])), i) | i <- [0..15]]
22:00:53 <int-e> > reverse $ sort [(fromJust (elemIndex i [0..15]) + fromJust (elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9])), i) | i <- [0..15]]
22:00:56 <lambdabot> [(27,14),(23,12),(21,15),(21,7),(19,10),(17,13),(17,5),(15,8),(15,0),(13,11)...
22:02:46 <int-e> So for the password cracking application, it's the last 15 rounds that you can reasonably expect to skip. The better indices are a tad too large.
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22:10:45 <int-e> and you can skip 3 more rounds if you only verify 32 bits instead of all the 128 bits.
22:12:52 <int-e> what else is there... for password cracking you tend to have a lot of message words that are known to be 0. That should also yield a minor but noticable improvement.
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22:39:37 <int-e> A pencil is an abridged antibiotic.
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22:40:21 <int-e> (I guess it works by stabbing bacteria.)
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